BPDFamily.com

It's been 5 weeks since she signed.

She is in breach on about 10 points.

Is it worth going to court?

What type of breaches?

It might be worth having your lawyer address this with her lawyer first, i.e., notifying that you will not allow this from the very beginning.

For starters she got married during the children's examinations. Dumped the children for a week so she could go on honeymoon. Didn't tell me anything. Or give me first right of refusal. She has blocked my  number so I cannot contact her telephonically. She refuses to arrange skype sessions and calls as stipulated.

What does your lawyer say about how to address this?

Within weeks after our final decree my ex skipped out on vacation with our son who was in kindergarten at the time.  Though she had mentioned previously she was wanting to take a vacation during Spring Break I never got any details and nothing in writing.  On Friday at the end of Spring Break week I went to pick up son from daycare and he wasn't there.  She was already two states away and gone the entire week after Spring Break.  She didn't even inform school.

Of course, that violated the terms of the parenting respecting Notice of Vacations.  My lawyer assured me it was a slam dunk for Contempt of Court.  However, the magistrate saw a time related loophole and did some legal gymnastics.  She declared my Ex was "technically" not in Contempt since she had an "inability to comply" — the old divorce temp order she violated was no longer in effect after the final decree and the new order was not in effect long enough for her to meet the minimum time frame for notice.  Come on, should parents need to add a clause to every agreement, "If the new order's terms regarding time frames cannot apply yet, then the old order's terms apply"?

I didn't see it as an inability to comply, I saw it as failure to even try to comply to either order's terms.  Whatever the case, my Ex got away with it.

On the one hand, a judge may feel that each transgression, if considered separately, may not rise to the level of being 'actionable'.  On the other hand, if you've just transitioned from the divorce process to post-decree life, my lawyer said the courts take post-decree incidents more seriously, they expect the conflict and emotions to have settled down by that time.  In addition, the longer she gets away with it, the more she will be incentivized or enabled to continue doing so.

I agree, review this with your lawyer and see what would qualify as Contempt of Court.  Be aware that returning to court can take months.  It's a trade-off, is there enough to take action on and limit Ex's entitlement?  The longer you wait, the less timely and substantive (actionable) these incidents will appear.  Most courts seem to ignore incidents older than 6 months before filing, unless you are attempting to prove patterns of behavior.  So while you may not have to do anything right now, you can't wait a year and then complain, they would be 'stale' by then.

In my court, filing motions for contempt of court were treated kinda like parking tickets. One didn't matter, two didn't matter, even three four and five didn't really matter. It was only when I got to 10 and 12 and above that things started to get the judge's attention.

That, and I learned to write consequences into the orders, so that it tightened them up and if nothing else, tipped off the judge that N/BPDx could not reign himself in even when he knew the consequences.

It cost a lot of money to do this, to show a pattern of obstructionist behavior that was essentially N/BPDx defying the court.

This is why it was good to have a clear goal, and then think together with your L about a strategy. In my case, I really had to push L to talk strategy -- she was prone to do things reactively and that was not working.

You know your ex is not going to change. So maybe you collect 3 or 4 motions for contempt, then propose a solution (this is important) with consequences for not complying (also important). Then you wait, and collect evidence of that non-compliance.

Court is not likely to care about the substance of your complaints. It is much more likely to care that she cannot comply. And if you present yourself as a problem-solver, it will elevate their estimation of you as the mature parent, increasing the odds that something meaningful happens in terms of custody.

If we use the motions for contempt as a type of complaint, with no objective or strategy, we become (in the court's eyes), yet another adult who cannot solve our own problems. And then judges treat us like children, not taking time to hear who hit who first, simply cutting the punishment down the middle so that both sides lose.  

Thanks L&L. It is heading this way. In South Africa they apparently do not look kindly at breaches of this nature. They often take action according to my advocate. A mother was jailed for two days in August by a high court for contempt to teach her a lesson. It does depend on the judge though, and we will have to set a strategy in place. 

My ex responds to consequences by the court. If I did nothing she would have continued to do whatever she felt like doing.
We separated in 2007, divorced in 2010. We have a solid (no wiggle room) custody order. I wrote the majority of it myself trying to cover all the issues we had in the past and whatever issues I anticipated. I had to go to court a few times but ex eventually realized she was no longer "winning" (in her mind) and got better at following the order.
Just last week she threatened to take me back to court because I was not following the order. I simply replied by copying the part of the order that applied and it was clear that I was following the order. I received several nasty emails after that attacking me. I didn't reply and it died down. It took a few days.

Thanks David

I've done a similar thing. Lawyers just didnt seem to grasp this thing. So I ended  up writing mine mostly myself as well. 8 pages of settlement agreement and 32 pages of Parenting Plan! I covered as many of the anticipated problems and indeed they have transpired as predicted.

Now the court will need to intervene.

Talk to your attorney but if you do go to court it might be good to let the judge know that you wrote the plan and the reasons why. You could then show the history of ex's repeated disregard for your parental rights and the order. However, the courts might give her a pass since it was just the first five weeks. You need to have consequences for the court to give ex if you do go. They have to be "reasonable" in the court's view. If nothing gets accomplished it would probably embolden ex even more. It may then take a few trips to the court to expose the pattern and total disregard for the court order. If you have to follow that path make sure the consequences cover all the transgressions. The court may then let a few of them go but give you the main ones that have the most substance. This way both parties "win".
It took my ex about three years to figure out that I was enforcing the court order. Boundary. She still tests the waters every now and then when she gets a bug up her a**.

My ex has just violated our custody agreement for the first time. We have a temporary parenting plan, and my ex decided to unilaterally make a change that I explicitly disagreed with. Thanks for posting this thread -- it's a good glimpse of the future for me.

I have it written in our court order that all changes to the custody order must be done in an email exchange. Both parties must agree to the change in an email. I always state that this change is for this single event and not to be considered a permanent change. Once the agreement is reached it can not be changed except through another email exchange. Unilateral changes are not permitted. Yes, I have that last sentence in the order.
I went to pick up our youngest once. Our order state that I am to call exs' phone, ex is not supposed to pick up, and the children should be in my vehicle in 5 minutes from the call. Ex must stay in her residence until I drive away. Anyway, I called and waited. Nothing. I called about 10 minutes later and nothing again. I waited 10 minutes and called the police. I did not want to go to the door because I was concerned she would say I attacked her and have me arrested. She did that before. The police came and said there was nothing they could do and that this was a civil matter. They said I needed to call my attorney and go to court. I simply said I was concerned with everyone's well being in the residence. They have to do a wellness check at that point. Miraculously as the one officer stepped onto ex's driveway, the door opened , and son came out. He got in the car and asked why the police were there. I said that I showed up a half hour ago and I couldn't get through on the phone. I was concerned that something might have happened at his mom's. He said that mom kept looking out the window and he didn't know why.

Crazy making! !

The obstructionists in our lives are masters at knowing just how far they can go before they have to pull back and comply.  This is almost surely a result of years of training.  In this case, only at the last moment just as the officer was about to get involved.  They believe it's okay to defy and deny as long as they are just below the level of it being 'actionable'.  It's only when we catch on to strategies that counteract those behaviors that we can handle it better.

It's really slick.  When I was in school I got in trouble for not knowing those rules.  After a group test us students headed back to class.  They all headed into the bathroom for a smoke.  I didn't want to get them in trouble and since it was just 5 minutes before class ended I headed to the library to read.  Unknown to me, they got back to class before the bell rang and I got a detention for not returning.  See?  I didn't know how to be sneaky slick.

File a contempt charge.  Even if the judge lets her off, it's on record and the history will be part of the consideration the next time a contempt charge is considered.  And the next.  And the next... .

That's what I did, except I started to do bunches of them all together so I could save money.

Toward the end, I started to work with L's associate, who was cheaper, and even sent a sample draft so all he had to do was tweak the language, to save me money.

Filing separately can end up costing more in court appearances, unless you get a date on the calendar and can add a batch of motions to that date. Your L can walk you through the procedural mechanics for how things work where you live.

And the police did... .wait for it... .NOTHING. Nothing about the games she was playing and forcing you and the police to be "busy with her". This is what's wrong, zero consequence.
If they had to be accountable for their actions, they would be less likely to repeat these ridiculous games and manipulations.

Some advice please? She has stopped communicating with me altogether.

I have been in touch with her husband's ex.

They claim they are one now, so they do not have to communicate with the respective ex's. So they swop. She tried to communicate with his ex, and now he tries to communicate with me.

Its one big triangulation mess.

What do I do. I have no info regardint the children and I live 6 hours away

Sounds like she is testing boundaries. Talk to your attorney. I would think the courts would not be pleased with her behavior. Make sure you have solutions and consequences.
"They claim they are one now, so they do not have to communicate with their respective ex's" ... .  That made me laugh out loud. Could you get that in writing from them or have them say that in court ? A solution would be to agree with them and therefore you get full custody of the children since you are their parent. Perhaps they believe the "one" produced those offspring ? If they say that in court or in writing  then you could petition the court for full custody since they are both insane.

My ex's ex did pretty much same thing.  She had her new husband as POA, so we HAD to speak to him.

This actually worked out some, cause he was easier than her.  Yet, without it legally binding, i assume your ex is simply being negligent of her duties.

Maybe a solution is to have you or her lawyer write her a letter informing her that she is not responding and neglecting her obligations via whatever document, and offer consequence of net responding or offer solution to provide paper that he is now POA and agreements with him are as legally binding as with her.

Can you list all the items in the order that she has violated?

Once you list them, are there things you would be able to suggest as reasonable solutions with logical consequences for violation?

Could a judge make the argument that the parenting plan is so detailed that anyone could easily and reasonably violate it? I remember you saying that your parenting plan is exhaustive, if I remember correctly. In South Africa, is the parenting plan given the same legal heft as the custody order? Meaning, do motions for contempt apply to parenting plans in the same way they do for violations in the custody order?

I would worry that if the parenting plan is treated like a guide, and is not as locked down as the custody order, then filing a motion for contempt on those items might backfire on you. A judge might look at your situation and think, "Messy divorce, ex wife recently married, jealous and hurt ex husband working out his grief through the court system."

Think like the judge, if you can. He or she sees messy relationship stuff day in, day out. I would think it would flag his/her attention to see someone show up and say, "We had a custody order/parenting plan with these items. They seem to be onerous for Moselle's ex because she hasn't been able to do 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6. My client proposes to adjust the custody order so that he gets (x amount of time) because ex has difficulty communicating when the kids are with her. We request the judge grant my client this time, and based on past history, we ask the court to allow ex to accrue time with his kids when they are withheld from him. If client has to seek help from courts to see his kids, we ask, too, that ex pays legal bills for any violation of the parenting plan/custody order."

Something like that. It needs to be an actionable problem (you are prevented from seeing your kids) with a reasonable solution (more time with kids) with logical consequences (failure to comply gives you something automatically that is actionable) to the violations.

 

Bulk discounts on contempt orders! What could summarize BPD better?

That's brilliant. Thanks so much. I spoke to my lawyer today. He said if she hasn't improved we should seek an access order on Monday. I also phoned my ex's father and said if she doesn't put me in touch with the girls we will be in court on Monday. Miraculously I get an sms from the girls saying we can talk. Latchingdon daemon It spoke to them was Sunday

I smiled at this... .in a rueful kinda way.

Moselle,

You are establishing boundaries that will affect the rest of your life.  In general, and especially with pwBPd, it is much easier to be stern at first and relax later, than to relax now... and be stern later.  The sense of entitlement grows exponentially with pwBPD.

So... .I'm saying file, file and file again.  Yep... it's going to cost you money.  That sucks.


One odd strategy to at least discuss with your Ls (i think you call them advocates).  Since your ex is now married and she is claiming they are one unit is there a way to go after him as well for "contributing" to contempt.  Or is there a way to put him on notice.

That way, if he goes on a vacation with her and your kids (or some other thing) and he hasn't seen a signed changed order or agreement, he "gets hit" as well.

FF

Hey Form. How is it going?

No there's no real way to hit him legally unless he really does something stupid. Which is apparently within the realm of possibility.

I think I gotta be smart here. I'm winning the hearts and minds of my girls whilst giving my ex sufficient rope to do what you do with a rope.

Yes. She needs to go to court. And I'll batch the contempt charges.

But I am not going to get into to a battle with her. She wins those, I lose with the girls because she tells them how much I hurt her and it costs.me precious time and energy.

I've got a new strategy - to fly like a butterfly and sting like a bee.

Nimble and agile. I can outwit her by being fast.

July next year we go to custody war. I want my girls

Oh... .ok.  Now my military side shows up.

Ask your L what he needs to get this done. 

If your L says contempt things help... .then make sure you step up and give him authority to file.

If your L says your ex is creating a sideshow... .then ignore it until next July.

I like the attitude... .be smart.  When you hit... .crush.

FF

For me each case took a while.  I did a Contempt one post-divorce.  I think it took a few months.  However, when I sought custody and majority time in a Change of Circumstances motion, that took much longer, nearly a year and a half when you included a few continuances.  Each one delayed the case by one or two months.

I don't know how things work in your area but try to keep the case moving along.  Get estimates from your lawyer on time frames.  You may not be able to avoid every continuance or legal delay tactic but don't sit back and let them go uncontested.

Is it possible to use any successful contempts for subsequent motions for custody and time?  Any way to merge them?  I look back on my case and wonder why certain things weren't pushed sooner.  I guess my lawyer knew what usually worked and decided not to stray too far from the norm.

My ex tested the court order and my using it as a boundary in the beginning. Our boys were 4 and 8 at the time. When they asked me why I was taking mom to court so much I simply said I was following the court order and I didn't want mom or me to get in trouble for not following it. I explained judges don't like it when they make a ruling and you don't follow it. That seemed to work well for me and the boys. As the boys got older they seen what ex was doing and figured it out.

Hi David and Moselle and everyone,

It's been a while.  My sister mediated back in June and ex-BIL/BPD ran out of the country after an 8 mos. custodial evaluation and agreeing to things in a 2 day mediation round.  Just left and left the kids saying it was "for work", but not informing my sister and informing the kids the day before he left and a day before they started the school year.

My sister filed in court to get the mediation agreement / parenting plan thrown out since he just left town and now wants to put a "long distance" parenting plan in place (i.e. pop back into town whenever his $$ is running out or he has a fight with his GF and take my niece - 12 and yank her around at his whim)

Just got a court date of February (which my sister is bummed about since it puts hers and my niece's life on hold once again - until things are sorted out).

My question to you guys is that it sounds like you've written some great iron clad parenting plans and consequences.  My sister needs help with that as I'm not sure her attorney is that thorough when it comes to that part.
She is going to request supervised visits for him if he does pop back into town because there is a ton of stuff that came out of the custody eval that he is supposed to be complying with even just to see my niece - 12. (drug test, stable and consistent psych care, taking his psych meds, communicating thru a parenting coordinator, etc)

Anyway, would you guys be willing to share the framework of your parenting plans and consequences  you put in?  Or send it to me privately?
I know my sister's attorney will be missing stuff and she will not think of everything... .

Just want to be solution oriented yet consequence smart when she heads to court in Feb - which comes up fast with the holidays.

Thanks guys.

No problem. Please Private Message me your email address?

ditto

It never ceases to amaze me that disordered people seem to all have the same playbook.

bpdfamily gives us a chance to have a similar playbook to "win" this really odd game we are playing.

David,

I would encourage your sister to make sure the L that she has is familiar with "high conflict" divorces and custody. 

Make sure she gets and follows his advice on documenting things like when he doesn't show up (even if he is out of the country).

Yes it will be burdensome... .but she wants to "prove" that she is being reasonable and that she is looking out for kids best interests.

FF