BPDFamily.com

Hi there.  My name is Fred (it isn't really but I'm living in fear) and I really need some advice.

With some Internet searching I have found this forum and found out about BPD, and these stories are so familiar it is frightening.

I will spare you my full story for now, as it's long and not too different to some of the stories I have read here, so here is the condensed version;

The last year and a half has given me the strangest, most frightening, most interesting and sometimes most wonderful experience of my life.  Things got gradually worse between us and it wasn't until she started involving the Police that I realised I had to end this relationship.

At the time I suspected that there was another man who had become involved, and that became my way out.  I stopped coming home for a while and started turning off my phone.  It worked. Within two weeks she told me that she had left me for another man, and then the bomb shell, that she was pregnant with my child!

I didn't know what to do at all so I went to my family for help.  When I told them what was happening, they somehow (and I don't know how, because she's very secretive) found out who her family was and contacted them, telling them everything.

Once she found out she called me and she was very upset.  She told me that her parents knew and that she had a termination.  Although this conflicts with my beliefs, it was welcome news, since the situation had become so serious that I saw this as the best possible outcome.

I thought that now that she is happy with another man, that I was free, but she doesn't stop calling.

Yesterday she called me and asked me "What would you say if I told you I never had the termination?"  My blood ran cold with fear.

It's so hard to tell now what is true and what is not. One minute she is pregnant, the next minute she isn't.  She has given me ultrasounds and blood results that confirm that there was a pregnancy at some stage, but the rest remains a mystery to me.

If it is true, that there is a child that is mine, then I feel an overwhelming duty to do what's right, to support her and the child, to help her get better and to try to provide her and the child with some sort of stable life.  I'm prepared to give everything I've got, both financially and otherwise. 

I'd like to know if this is actually possible?  Can she be helped?  Or am I better off changing my name and leaving the country?  I'm actually getting quite frightened, and I quiver every time the phone rings. 

I know that deep down she has a good heart, but there is a demon within her the likes of which I have never seen and it's capable of destroying me.

Thank you so much for listening,
Fred

Hello,

This woman is a few sandwiches short of a picnic.   Whether she "terminated" a pregnancy or not, she's attempting to exercise absolute control over you.  If by some chance, her claim of pregnancy is true, then you have the right and responsibility to be in this child's life, not hers.   The pregnancy and subsequent birth allow for an extremely slim chance that this woman will actually change.   Your job is not to help this person financially unless her claims are true and the child is actually yours. Emotionally, you will not change this person and you will exhaust yourself to no end trying to do so.  If you need proof, take some time and read through these forums and see what others have dealt with.  Rational and balanced people do not do the things you mention.

Your first priority should be to find out whether the pregnancy is valid, demand proof from her.  Secondly, if I were you, I would demand a paternity test.  This woman clearly cannot be trusted and it would be a huge mistake for you to blindly trust that this child is actually yours.  Forget about her and get to the facts and if it turns out she is lying, I think you know what needs to happen next.

Best of luck.

False claims of pregnancy in order to prevent a man from leaving are fairly frequent around here. Sometimes with attempts to provide "proof." I would make no assumptions about what is true. What you can tell is that she is willing to engage in terribly manipulative behavior to try to get you to behave as she wishes.

If the ultrasounds are fraudulent then she has done an excellent job.  They are photos taken on her phone of the display screen of a Philips Ultrasound machine.  Her name is on the screen.

 
*welcome*

Big breath... .

You have found people here that "get it".  You have also found people that will speak directly to you... .to help break through the FOG (Fear Obligation and Guilt)

Please focus on realizing what this person is capable of doing to control you.

That is not the only issue, but in the big picture... .I think that is the one that matters right now.

Let's speak directly... .and plainly. 

Does it matter if she had a termination or not? 

Does the pregnancy matter?

How does your state go about establishing paternity?

Now... .let me come back to "success stories".  How would you define success?

Hang in there... keep coming back... .we can help with your journey.

FF

The courts can take the presumption of paternity based on living arrangements about the time of conception.  They can order a DNA test, but only if you can prove that there may have been some infidelity... .BUT... .

She claims that the guy she left me for is infertile!  If that's true and can be proven then the presumption of paternity is back on me. 

When I say success stories I mean, is it possible to help these people get better so that life is bearable with them?

I can get her to come back (although I'm trying to get her to stay away) It's just a case of giving in to her demands.  She does this to me all the time, although I've never let it get this far...  

She pretends to be interested in another man, if I don't respond she takes things further until she gets what she wants and then she cuts him off.  Then he starts calling and texting and parking his car out the front of our house, etc.  It's not his fault, he's really confused.  He thinks he was going to rescue her from an abusive alcoholic who beats her.  Instead, he ends up being the poor bloke who gets slapped with the Police VRO.

As I said, the last year an a half has been a very strange experience.  I have never in my life seen anything like this... .

 
With all the claims that she is making... .you need to get legal advice on how to prove paternity... .if it comes to that.

She may not even be pregnant.

What you do know... .is she has been making lots of claims.  Do you believe that will continue?

FF

Hey Fred, Feel free to fill us in on your story, when you get a chance.  Where do things currently stand with your Ex?

LuckyJim

No. You might learn some communication tools and get her into T, and that can help, but she will always be wired wrong. Your r/s will always be high maintenance and dramatic. Sorry you are going through this. If you can confirm she is not carrying your child, please run and don't look back.

Your relationship with your ex was bad, she involved police and she cheated on you. You know that you don't want to be with her and that's why you left. So don't be suckered into taking her back. Even if she is truly pregnant, it sounds like she is just using the situation to try to control you into going back to her. While people with BPD can get better, this isn't how it happens.

When someone with BPD gets better, they take full responsibility for their actions. They seek help and do hard work. It will still take months or years to have measurable improvement and then it is an ongoing effort to manage their symptoms. You can't trust simple proclamations of getting better because it is a very long term process. Given this entire situation and how she is trying to control you, this is 100% not happening. If you go back you will be trapped and everything bad before will get worse.

If she isn't lying about the pregnancy, you should still NOT resume your relationship, After confirming it is your child, you are responsible for the baby but are in no way obligated to go back to her.

Hi.  I'd love to tell you my whole story, since it would make for pretty good reading.  But there are a couple of reasons why I don't want to do this;

Firstly is that if she ever stumbles across this thread, she is going to know it's me.  She's pretty sharp like that.  In fact, one of her strengths is that she has an amazing memory.  I will say something dumb in the heat of an argument and have no recollection of having said it. She remembers everything.  The exact date, time, what we were doing and even the clothes I was standing in. 

At first I doubted this, I thought "No one can remember things in such detail" so when she wasn't looking, I searched the car for parking stubs and scrolled through my EFTPOS history.  Everything checked out, from the exact time and place we parked the car, to the time we settled the restaurant account and left, and the argument in the parking lot fitted in too.  She had it all correct down to the second.  I really wish I could be that sharp myself, but in a way this gift of hers is a bit of a curse because she can never let anything go - and she doesn't.

The other reason is because I don't really want to turn this thread into a forum to vent my frustrations and publicly humiliate her.  Despite the grief she's given me, she's still a human being and her feelings matter.

Where we currently stand?  We talk.  She has given the new boyfriend (the knight in shining armour) the flick already.  He's abusive too now apparently.  It'll only be a few months before I know if she's still pregnant or not.  I'm trying to avoid any physical contact, particularly overnight, for obvious reasons... .

Hi, and welcome.
Are there success stories?
All the time - but they are one-sided.  It happens when someone who was being targeted and abused by a person with BPD finally gets free, or gets good enough to maintain personal wellness in spite of the abuse and affliction by a pw BPD.

In my opinion:

The only possibility of a BPD getting better come from within that individual. Mostly, BPD sufferers cannot accept responsibility for their life, action, or the their behavior - at least not for more than a day or two. Then, it's someone else to blame.  A healthy relationship takes two healthy people.  I compare it to a body. If one arm has a virus, then the other arm has a virus too.  Nothing you do will cure her.  Ever.

That said, it's up to you to decide to stay or go.  A relationship must be equal there also.  She chose to leave, and was free to do so.  therefore, you have the same right.  You may leave.  Once you create some space, build a wall.  If you still want the relationship to go forward, meet her as an equal.  Don't be forced or coerced.  If she will blackmail you now, she will do it forevermore.  The book "Emotional Blackmail" by Susan Forward is very good reading for this situation.

I might suggest that once you create some space and find equal terms to work out the relationship, then is the time to deal with the pregnancy or not.  Recall that feeling of your blood running cold when she was threatening you about being the daddy?  She almost certainly knew the effect it had on you too, and that became a hot button for her to use to get control.  If it is your baby, and it comes to full term, then you can get court ordered paternity tests done.  If it's not yours, you're off the hook.  If you are the daddy, do your best to parent the baby - take that seriously.  But, you have no reason to stay with, or obligation towards, the mom - who is unfaithful and unstable.  You'll be a better daddy when you're away from crazy mom anyway, so, find a parenting and living arrangement that works for that.

A bad decision (getting her pregnant) is not best followed with another bad decision (staying with her at the cost of your personal health). 

Be aware, she may be gaslighting you.  My wife does it all the time.  Some facts such as where and when  may be correct, but her version of what was said and done by who is only her version, and not to be trusted. 

My wife did this to me for years, and I believed everything she said was true.  But it wasn't.  Now, more than once I've caught her saying I did and said things I am 100% sure I didn't say or do. 

Have some faith in yourself. 

Wait, you are married?  You are the person I want to talk to!

How do you manage?  Are you happy?  Is it worthwhile?  If you had your time again, would you do it?  What would your advice be to me?

Thanks,
Fred

Fred227,

I know you directed your question at another married poster, I believe my experience may be informative and helpful as you make decisions about YOUR future.  

Quick history.  I'm at 22 years of marriage.  BPDish behavior showed up in my marriage 6-7 years ago after a natural disaster forced our family from our home for about half a year.  It is likely that the Navy lifestyle of periodic absences kept me in the "white" or "lovebombing" phase for the first 15-16 years of the relationship.  (that was a wonderful 15-16 years)  Honestly, the first experience I had of being "black" was when the natural disaster and a lot of issues surrounding that, became "my fault".  I jaded and did all the "wrong" things.  Was a few years later that I read SWOE and found this site.  Things are much improved after learning about "the rules"

I have 8 kids.  2 kids were conceived after BPDish stuff showed up.  I erroneously thought a child we both loved would be "reparitive" to our relationship.  It was not.  No kids have been conceived after I read SWOE and finding this site.  
 

Very carefully.  Once weekly (sometimes more) meetings with a PhD level psychologist that is in her 60s.  (read lots of experience).  She helps keep me focus on my big picture priority.  In my case, my "life purpose" is to get my kids raised and out of the house with as much "emotional intelligence" as possible and to minimize the harm of "BPDish" behavior.


I am happy.  There are lots of days where this is difficult.  I look to myself for my own happiness now.  I do still look to my kids as a source of enjoyment and happiness.  I do, with help of P, try to keep that in perspective so I don't go overboard.

I do not look to my wife as a source of happiness.  There are things she does that bring me pleasure and happiness, but I DO NOT COUNT ON THOSE THINGS happening.  Enjoy them when they happen, but don't create expectations.


For me, I have determined that my decision to stay is worthwhile.  My oldest called me the other day with the exciting news of, yet again, getting the job offer (internship) than he has pursued.  At the age of 21 years old he now has the chance to "go further" that I did with respect to some qualifications that I earned in my over 20 years as a Naval Officer.  



I am intentional about the way I raise my kids that they will be "better" than I was.  Not at all to say that I was bad, but to say that you can always ... .ALWAYS... .do better and you ALWAYS be trying to do so.  I feel a great deal of pride and happiness that he is able to achieve and I firmly believe that one facet of his achievement comes from an intact, albeit dysfunctional, family... .vice a split up and dysfunctional family.

Note:  This is not always the right choice I and have made choices that I assumed would end my marriage, my wife chose to make changes and stay.   I was fully prepared for the consequence of some of my choices to her choosing to leave the marriage.






Yes.  Please understand this is a very personal decision for everyone.  Please also understand this was a CHOICE that I made, vice a situation that I have found myself in.

People do ask If I could go back in time, would I do it all again... .and I answer yes.  For me, even if you could assume that I would have 8 kids with another woman, they would be different people... .I'm sure I would love and appreciate them, but I just can't imagine life without the kids that I know and love.


Educate yourself about "BPDish behavior" and make and informed choice about what you feel is best for YOUR life.

If it turns out that you are the father of a child, you will need to make lots of informed choices about what is best for the future of your child, with the full knowledge that in many cases you choice is only a "vote" and there are other deciders as well.

Direct actionable recommendations:  (you asked... . :)  

1.  You need to fully understand from a lawyer (not just reading on the internet)... .but from a lawyer that you have explained your situation to... .how the states paternity laws (where you live) apply to YOU.   

2.  With this lawyer, you need to develop a plan for determining paternity if this lady you are involved with appears pregnant and if she gives birth.  There could be two separate plans here.

3.  While there is a possibility that you may have a child with this woman, that you find a T (preferably PhD level with years of experience... .I'm talking 20 or more years... .vice newly minted PhD) to guide you in the relationship with the goal of (a) doing no further damage... .so much as it is up to you and (b) being slightly "reparitive" without committing yourself to a future... .again... .so much as it is up to you.

4.  Never again expose yourself to the possibility of creating a child with this woman, because you KNOW how cavalier her actions are about children or potential children with you.


Thoughts?

FF

Thank you so much for sharing that! 

The truth is that I'm so much happier now that she's gone.  The house is clean, I can have friends, I can drink Scotch if I want, I get to work on time, I can keep my commitments and I'm starting to get back to doing the things I love doing. 

I do miss her and I love her for who she is and I'd do anything for her, but I never want to go back to that dark place of misunderstanding and confusion again.

It's a waiting game now.  If there is a child I'll probably bite the bullet and try to make things work.  If not, well I'm happy to stay friends with her.  But that's as far as it goes.

I have ordered a copy of that book too.  I would be naive to think that my first encounter with BPD will be my last.  I'm a bit slow on the relationship game but I've have friends who have been through several "crazy girlfriends" in the time that I've known them - I think the whole experience has been a valuable lesson.

Thanks again for sharing your experience.  I'm so grateful. 

Cheers,
Fred

Greetings, Fred 227:

If you should become a father, wouldn't it be lovely if your son or daughter had a dad who could say this:


I think it's only natural for you to contemplate "biting bullets" and sacrificing yourself at a time of chaos and uncertainty such as this. But I would like to join formflier and others on this thread in inviting you to take your time before making decisions regarding a relationship with the child's mother. An experienced therapist will be valuable in guiding you to a decision in which you can have confidence.

Also, please consult with legal counsel regarding rights and responsibilities of putative fathers in your jurisdiction. You'll be glad you did.

KateCat,

Can you bring Fred 227 up to speed on your profession?  Perhaps discuss how often you have seen this sort of thing. 

Perhaps discuss outcomes you have seen of those that retain counsel and follow their advice early in the process... .versus those that come in late in the game.

FF

Fred227, if you are in the U.S., I would be happy to describe a bit of what I learned as a staff member in a very busy government office that "worked" paternity establishment; parenting plans; child support; and support enforcement cases. Everything from collecting DNA samples to collecting checks from obligor parents.

Who knows, one day you may even be a parent with sole custody requesting your local agency to assist you in securing support from the non-custodial parent. Or helping you apply for benefits for your child if the mother is disabled.

I all starts with: "Are you Dad?" 

Just want to add that this is what caught my eye in your initial post on this thread:


I'm generally familiar with the legal concept of presumption of paternity regarding a child "of the marriage"--where laws are meant to protect the institution of marriage--but I haven't heard of this idea for a child conceived outside of marriage in the U.S. 

Can you tell me more of your understanding of this? It's been some time since I worked in paternity establishment, and it's always possible that there's been a change of which I'm unaware. (However, that would be a big ol' change, in my view. :))

I'm outside the US :)

Well, forget everything I said then! (Except the part about fully understanding local laws, of course.)

The general idea where you live then would be that if the two of you cohabited at the time of conception, then you're Dad? And in order not to be Dad you would have to make public accusations of infidelity against the mother? That sounds like a powerful deterrent.

I think it's to do with our laws and ethics on DNA testing in general.  You just can't force someone to give a DNA sample unless they are charged with a serious crime or there is a court order.  Even if you did have a sample, it wouldn't be admissible without consent.

Since getting the sample from someone who flat out doesn't want to provide it can be pretty intrusive and even require physical restraint, no court will hand out an order without a very good reason.  Simply being unsure is not enough of a reason.



   

If you are named as a father in a legal action, would that entitle you to request DNA samples be taken of yourself and of the child in question? I guess I'm wondering what the legal mechanism would be to prevent false attribution of paternity.

It sounds as though you've got time to contemplate all things paternity. Just some questions I'd throw into the mix: Is it in a child's best interest to know who his/her biological father is? For medical reasons or just in the interest of truth? Is it in the biological father's best interest to know that he has a child and to be given the chance to parent his biological child? Would it bring grief to your own parents if you were forced into a family situation under false pretenses? If it is not your biological child and if the mother is one day not able to care for the child, would that be a difficult situation for you if you are not the child's biological father?

I hope there's a way for you to learn if the child is your biological child, if in fact there is to be a child. 



 

I can PM you a link to our local legislation if you like.  I don't really want to post it publicly and give away my location.  I feel like I've given away too much already.  If she finds this thread she'll know it's me.

Thank you. I'd be interested in having an opportunity to learn of the local legislation.

If you are voluntarily giving a sample... .there shouldn't be a problem.  I would think you would want to give the sample.

If she is claiming you are the father, then you have the child tested.  You give consent.  I would be shocked if both parents have to consent.

If she is claiming you are NOT the father, that is where it could be tricky.

Have you learned about your local ordinances through a lawyer, or just "plain reading" of them yourself.

Bottom line:  Let a person licensed to practice law "interpret" them for you.

FF

This is my general understanding of paternity law as well:


I live in a U.S. county that is home to several major league sports franchises. There is a steady stream of women claiming their children were fathered by various team members. Sometimes the women even name the child some version of "Junior." The legal departments of each sports team are old hands at producing DNA samples and paperwork to handle these cases. It's just part of doing business.

I surely hope there are similar protections for men in your country.

From what I'm reading of your country's law, the "presumption of paternity" criteria apply when both parents are in agreement as to paternity of the child. This is helpful to parents who aren't married, for instance, as it does not require them to do more legally than sign a document or two.

Then I'm further reading that establishing paternity where there is no agreement is a matter for the family court. That it will order DNA tests of necessary parties, and that the cost will be roughly $XXX for this service.

Can you pay for, say, thirty minutes of phone time with a family law attorney, to make sure you understand your circumstances? This might set your mind at ease pretty quickly. I don't at all get the sense that your country is seeking to stick paternity to the wrong guy. The science of DNA matches is so astoundingly accurate these days . . . .