BPDFamily.com

Hi all, this is my first post on this forum (or any other related to BPD) and I'm going through a very hard time. I'm a 49 year old U.S. citizen (male) and live in Germany. I've been with my undiagnosed BPD girlfriend for four years. We have a 1 1/2 year old daughter together (unplanned on my part).

It has been tough the last two years. I have two almost-grown daughters from a previous marriage (15 and 17) and go back to the U.S. to visit them occasionally.

This has created INTENSE jealousy and rage in my BPD partner. Each time I go to visit (two or three times a year) my older daughters, my BPD partner basically kicks me out of our apartment. Most of my trips are planned for two to three weeks, but extend to two months at a time because my BPD partner won't let me come home. I stay with friends and family in the U.S. while I negotiate with her to "allow me" back home (the apartment is in her name), knowing that things will be better after I return. And they usually are for a while. Until I need to fly to the U.S. again.

I'm now in the States after having left early October. This was agreed-upon by my BPD girlfriend and myself so I could gather documents for our daughter's U.S. Citizenship application, for me to vote, look for a new remote job (I'm a developer) and get a new German visa. And of course for me to visit my older daughters again (but I didn't mention this to my BPD partner).  The plan was for me to be gone three weeks.

But the same thing happened after two weeks: my BPD girlfriend became more and more unhinged and ranted and raved at me for never "being supportive" of our young daughter (even though my girlfriend doesn't work - she's a stay-at-home Mom). This is ridiculous. I am totally supportive and a very active Dad; supportive financially as well as time and attention-wise.

As always, the plan was for me to return after three weeks. This time she said there is NO way I'm coming home, said she changed the locks on the doors, took me off my daughter's Kindergarten pick-up list and won't let me Skype with my young daughter. I think she's jealous because I'm such a great Dad (her only compliment to me) and sees how excited my daughter is to see over Skype.

Bottom line: I am kicked out on the street (while I'm in a foreign country) and she has now cut off ALL contact between me and our shared daughter and said the relationship is over and that she wants me out.

And here is something interesting: her "shift" this time happened right after I told her my best friend here was diagnosed with stage three cancer (someone she knows). Until then everything was okay, and as soon as I told her my friend had cancer she kicked me out. Very odd.

After this happened I said I will come back to Germany and get my own place close by so I can see my daughter and be an active Dad in her life. I said I will be back before Christmas and would like to schedule time so we can share our daughter through the Christmas season. She said we could "talk about it when I get back".

Two days later she informed me that she will be taking our daughter on a "vacation" for 10 days through ALL of Christmas: Dec 22nd to Dec 30th. She refuses to tell me where she plans to go, who she is going with or what she plans on doing. I have a feeling she is going to Turkey with a close female friend.

It feels to me this is her way to injure me since she knows I love my daughter so much and planned to spend Christmas with her. She refuses to answer my questions about where she is going. She also informed me she finally got psychological counseling and that I am "so sick". (projection)

Finally, yesterday she could not find our daughter's passport. She texted me and accused me of "stealing" it. This is ridiculous. I didn't "steal" our daughter'/ German passport and never would. I said "no, of course not".

Then she said because of me "stealing" our daughter'S passport, "she doesn't trust me" and will make sure if I come back that I won't be able to spend time with my daughter unsupervised. She also said she will report this to the police and the Jugenamt (child services)!  This is insane.

My BPD girlfriend has now blocked ALL communication with me and won't answer the phone, has blocked me over text, email, everything. I have no access to my daughter.

I don't know what to do. If it's true that she reported me to the police I don't want to get off the plane after landing in Germany and be arrested. On the other hand, it's incredibly painful for me to not see my daughter.

Thanks for listening.

codependable,

I'm sorry for your predicament, and welcome to the site. I can empathise in a very real way with your story. Mine has such similar elements, silent treatment, threats, police, lies.

It is all too familiar and as part of the family here you will not need to explain - we understand the pain.

What is your intention? To work on the relationship or to secure access to your child?

Again welcome  

Hi  codependable,

*welcome*


Wow. She does not have a lot of empathy. I'm sorry that you're going through this.

Have you made a call to a L? ( lawyer )

Thanks Moselle and Mutt,

My mind / heart is so scrambled I don't even know the best course of action right now.  My first instinct is to fly back to Germany, get in front of her and talk some sense into her.  But I'm reluctant to do so because of the threat of police involvement for something I didn't do.  It is, after all, a foreign country and I don't fully understand their laws (I speak a bit of German) and processes.  I'm in the dark and therefore, somewhat powerless position there.

Before I left things were okay and getting better.  We are (were?) engaged (she wore the ring I got her every day) and committed to working on our relationship.  We both knew we had to get counseling for the sake of our daughter. 

However, the threats of filing false police charges are serious.  My normal tendency (as the 'fixer' / 'everything will be okay' would be to ignore the threat and try to work through it.  She's much better in person and I can usually calm her down.  But after reading Dr. T's site Shrink4Men.com she lists threats of police reports as a "final red flag" and relationship deal breaker - no questions asked.  I'm devastated. 

Thanks for your support... .

Hi codependable,

I was charged with false accusations and I had to wait 8 months until I had to go to court. We were living under the same roof, I had never heard of BPD at that time and if I look back, being split black for several months make sense. That's enough about me.




What is sad is that your D is in the middle of this. This isn't fair, it's denying reasonable access to your child and possibly kidnapping. I'm not a lawyer and I can't offer you legal advice. If it were me, I just wouldn't take the chance with getting in trouble because I may not have access with my child. I shared my experience with you, I was trying to talk sense to my wife, I told her that I was the sole bread winner in the house and if I faced jail time, it would affect everyone in the family, I had never see someone as stubborn as her, I was split black.

I know that it's tough not seeing your D, she's young and you want to soak as much of that in before she gets older but you also have to play the long game. I'll give you the link with for custody and divorce board, share with members that have gone through this before you https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=10.0

Thanks Mutt

You're not alone. Hang in there.

I think you really need to consult a lawyer, too.  A German lawyer, who is familiar with the law there.  She seems ready to go to any length to get what she wants, so you need to know the facts regarding what she can and can't do with your daughter, and your position in Germany regarding any false accusations she might make. 

Be prepared and stay safe.

*welcome*

My general advice is to limit communication with her to what you can do that is "healthy" (we can help with that)

Negotiating and begging is not healthy.

My gut says you are better off to travel back now... .rather than wait for your gf's "permission".  I doubt she changed the locks.

That being said... .view everything through the lens of the legal system.  If you haven't talk to a German L... .do so immediately.

FF

Ugh, this is a really tough situation.

Q: How much of the horrible stuff she's doing, saying she did, and/or threatening to do is new escalation?

You know her, and prior behavior is a good indication of what to expect in the future. If she's said similar things before and you've gone back (after waiting another month or two for her to wind down) and all has been better before, expecting something similar is reasonable on your part.

If this is a new level beyond what has happened before, and especially if every trip has been a bit worse when you got back, you can expect things to be worse when you get back.

Some pwBPD will threaten to call police/authorities on you. Some will threaten to make false allegations to get you arrested. Some make all kinds of idle threats. Other pwBPD will actually DO these things. They have common characteristics, but they are individuals.

You know her... .what do you expect when you return?

*IF* you see any chance she will take legal actions against you, talk to a German lawyer now, before you schedule your trip back. I second Mutt's recommendation that you post on the legal board here, no matter how likely you think it is!

Side note: I'd take any claim that this kind of threat is a "final red flag" with a grain of salt. It absolutely needs to be taken seriously on your part, yes--no doubt there. I'm unfamiliar with shrink4men.com, but such absolute statements make me question how helpful it will be. Or perhaps how helpful some parts of it are.

I've looked over the site before and didn't find it helpful.  There is a "tone" about the site of "standing up" to pwBPD... .or perhaps "looking down on them".  Really hard to describe.

Yes... .sometimes you need to stand up to them... but... .the "battlefield" is their feelings.  They are people that experience things really strongly.  If you can get to or stay in that place in your head... .then you can usually validate much better... .and calm things. 

I didn't find anything like that on the shrink site. 

Anyway... .my number 1 recommendation is to talk to a German lawyer.

FF

Thanks all. She's not answering any of my calls, emails and has blocked me on texts. This has happened before, but only for a day or so. It has been a week now. This feels like a "final discard" described by so many others. It feels different.

She also mentioned that she "finally got a counselor and the counselor said you are really sick" (projection on her part).  She feels abandoned and is seeking out a third party to validate her feelings and - of course - place me in the role of the bad guy (as is her pattern). I asked if she discussed HER behavior in the relationship with this new counselor. She scoffed at that, dodged the question and flipped the issue back to me, countering with "and my counselor thinks you're dangerous".

Not sure if the counselor really said this or not, but this is ridiculous. I have never laid a hand on her in anger, ever. She is the one who has hit, pushed and slapped me in the past.  This behavior from her, thankfully, is rare. But she knows I would never do anything to hurt her.

Also, a few weeks ago she said she was going to call the Jugenamt (child services office) and request financial support from them. I told her since I am already giving her financial support (I pay for everything), they would put me on a blacklist as a deadbeat Dad and come after me. She said she would tell the Jugenamt that she "doesn't know where the father is" so she could get money from them and everything would be fine for me.  She's trying to scam the system by selling me out...

I begged her not to do this. I explained if she did, I wouldn't be able to come back into the country until I had cleared my good name... .and the way the system works in Germany it could be a long time.  It might mean I wouldn't see my daughter for six or more months.  Thankfully, my BPD has sort of dropped this idea. And every time I ask her if she had gone to the Jugenamt, she replies, "That's all you care about, isn't it?  No I haven't. Not yet".

She leaves it hanging out there as a threat.

But the introduction of a counselor / third party is new. And it troubles me. I have begged her to go to counseling with me for years now, and although she has been open to it, she has dragged her feet. When she told me she this new counselor, she said, "I've had this counselor for a while now" and that "it has been very, very hard.  But I've made my decision and everything is fine now".  In her world, "a while" probably means two or three sessions.

I said I was proud she got a counselor and offered to join in sessions when I returned home.  She said I could not join her sessions (of course because she knows I would call her out) and she would not give me the name of her counselor.

The next day she texted me and said, "We are fine (my daughter and her). I don't want to have contact with you right now. Please respect that. Live your life in LA and at least be a Dad to your two older daughters".

(This is a reference to my two older daughters in LA from a previous marriage who I visit two times per year on their birthdays - and which infuriates my BPD girlfriend and causes her to rage).

I replied that since she and I have a child together, we can't (unfortunately) go full no contact.  I have been calling, texting and emailing for a week now with no answer.  The only thing I've heard from her was that absurd text accusing me of "stealing" our daughter's passport.

I agree with your suggestions that I should get a lawyer. It feels like she's setting me up or trying to drive me out of my young daughter's life with some "pre-emptive" strikes while I'm out of the country and make it difficult for me to fight back and come back.

Does this sound like a final discard to you guys? 

Dude... .this sucks.

In the future, if you get a chance to communicate, "begging" is not the right thing to do. 

It does NOT sound like final discard.  It sounds like she understands how to play you... .and has turned up the volume on that...

It is your job to "play" a different game by different rules.

It is also your job to retain a german lawyer.  Do you have one yet?

FF

What is defined as "begging" and what IS the proper way to communicate in a situation like this?

Thanks

My guess is that you are using the term begging in your posts, that you are using it in it's "common" use.

fictional example:

Her:  "I'm kicking you out and you will never see your daughter again.  I've emailed all your friends on facebook and told them you are a looser dad and a horrible lover."

example  "Please baby... .think of our relationship and our daughter.  Please let me come home.  I'll try harder to be a better lover and Daddy.  Give us one more chance."

potential "good response"

"I need to go now, it's difficult to communicate with threats between us.  I'll reach out to you tomorrow."

FF

Ugh, you are in a tough spot, and I really think you need to understand the legal issues to make tough choices.

It sounds like she makes threats and blows up at you... .and likely she didn't do all she says she did, but you never know.

Telling a licensed counselor about abuse or violence can require mandatory reporting (No idea about German laws!). Her telling the counselor that you are "dangerous" may have started a domestic violence case against you. If she did say things, I'd bet that it is mostly false, or leaving out parts that make her look far worse than you do, etc... .and yes, this will probably come out eventually, but spending time in jail while it is sorted out sounds like no fun.

Also dealing with Jugenamt with charges of non-support sounds equally unfun!

In your shoes I wouldn't return to Germany without knowing how badly these things could go for you, how long they would take to straighten out, and what sorts of things you absolutely cannot afford to say to law enforcement, without consequences. Both for yourself and your girlfriend--If she does something truly illegal and egregious, like perjury to get you arrested, or worse, there are legal consequences for her... .you may have to let her face that, but I'd hate to see it happen just because you didn't understand the legal weight of one phrase you used with law enforcement!

---

You talk about how disturbing it is to have her talking to the counselor, and telling you (more-or-less) that you are horrible and the counselor backs her up.

First off, you aren't hearing her conversations with the counselor, and a good counselor wouldn't say such things. Most likely she's not repeating accurately what the counselor says. If the counselor is good, the counselor is trying to build a working relationship with her by listening without judging or contradicting, despite seeing through your gf's distortions and lies. Or the counselor isn't very good, and is snowed by her. And in that case, as therapy continues, the counselor is more likely to see through things, but you really don't know.

Second, this is really common BPD behavior. It is called triangulation. She's making herself the victim, making you the persecutor, and making the counselor the rescuer. Even people who don't have BPD can easily fall into doing this.

FF - thank you for that good example of how to speak in a situation like this. I've been "begging" if that's the definition. Here's an example:

"And now you're going to LIE to the Jugenamt and say I don't help you with any money - when you KNOW that's not true. And I won't be able to see our daughter for a long, long time until I defend myself and clear that up. You're pushing me out of her life. Do you understand that?"

This is how I respond usually to get her to see reason. Maybe in this case it worked because she backed off her promise to go to the Jugenamt for non-payment, but I do see your point.

I will contact a German lawyer first thing tomorrow to start getting my ducks in a row. Chances are, she's bluffing and trying to use these threats and silent treatment to pull me back in, but I agree that until I know for sure where the process is, it's probably a bad idea to go back.

I really should have seen this coming. She has an older daughter from a previous marriage who, at age 14, chose to live with her father. She left my BPD girlfriend about six months before I met her. I think my BPD gf is scared to death of losing OUR daughter. I know there was a lot of strife, juvenile delinquency, running away from home, etc. with her older daughter when she lived with my BPD girlfriend. A couple years after leaving my gf, her daughter "sued" to take away any remaining custodial rights she had.  Her Dad was granted full custody. My BPD gf stopped speaking to her older daughter when that happened about two years ago.  I will ask a lawyer if any of that case can be used in my situation as leverage.

Also, what is the best way to get through her silent treatment? This is the first time she has gone past a few days. I would like to speak to her to gain more insight about what is happening there.  This would be very helpful (if she tells me the truth) for any legal moves I have to make.

She is not answering emails, answering her multiple phones and has blocked me over text as well. This is really troubling because in the past she might have gone dark for a day or two, but it now it feels like the new "counselor" is instructing her to go no contact.  Which, if I'm correct, isn't recommended for couples who have children together because the non-custodial parent has a right to information about his or her child. There isn't even low contact between us at this point.

This is why I say it feels like a "final discard". So two questions:

- Are there any proven techniques for getting past someone's no contact to initiate low contact? Especially in cases of having a child together where it's important to have at least a limited dialog?  Do you know any methods to pierce this terrible wall of silence?  My daughter, unfortunately, is behind that wall.

- Why do you guys feel this is NOT a final discard on her part? It sure feels pretty final to me.  Even though I know she is totally unhealthy and abusive to me, I still cling to some stupid (and probably totally unrealistic) hope we can make things work. Part of me would still like to get couples counseling with her so we can be healthier co-parents and she can let go of her anger.

And, of course, I need to address my own co-dependency! In spite of her atrocious behavior, I still see the scared little person inside of her clutching at anything to keep me by her side or pull me back to her in any twisted way she can.  Maybe I need to get more pissed off, but right now I simply feel a.) scared I won't have access to my daughter and b.) isolated by her behavior.  As for her, I just feel sorry for her.

Can you see that your "style" of communication is trying to convince her of what she needs to think or understand?  Trying to convince her of what she "knows"...

In life... .let people figure things out for themselves.  If they ask you, perhaps you should share... .perhaps.

But someone that has not expressed interest in your help with their thinking... .well... .when you starting pushing for them to think differently... .do you think they will "come towards you"... .or "run away"?

As far as getting through the ST... .take lots of walks... .work out extra... .get a book.

Learn as much here about what to say next... .when and if she ever contacts. 

Basically... .stop reaching out... .she is "running"... .your attempts to "catch" her... .encourage her to run faster. 

BPDish stuff is a whacky world where they CRAVE closeness... .they CRAVE empathy and validation for their worldview of the moment.

Yet... .when they start to get it... .they haul a$$ the other way... .fast.

Part of what you need to learn is that when they come at you... .don't knock them away... .but don't suck them in hard either.  When they run away from you... .don't push harder... .let them know you want them back... .in a nonchalant kinda way.

Push pull is maddening... .

Your number 1 priority is to talk to a german lawyer.  I would assume the term over there is "retain" or "hire".  Make sure they are on your side.  Last thing you would want is to fly over there and walk into an investigation or some trouble.

FF

FF - Makes sense. Thank you very much for your help.  So to recap: Don't try to break the no contact. Doing so only pushes her farther away AND allows her to "run" the game.  Be low-key and sort of detached in my dealings with her if she ever initiates contact again.

And most of all, get a good German lawyer. :)

I appreciate your suggestions and guidance. I will read up on this forum for ways to communicate after NC.

The silent treatment is really hard to take. Probably worse when you are half the globe away. We've got a topic dealing with just that, which might help you.

BPD BEHAVIORS: Silent treatment - verbal abuse. (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=68733.0)

Unfortunately, it is one form of abuse that you really can't stop her from doing--you cannot force her to communicate with you in any way if she doesn't want to.

That said, you chasing after her by calling and texting multiple times isn't a good response--it is letting her know that it is getting to you and that encourages her to use that technique.

Best practice for you is finding other things to do with your time and energy... .even if it *IS* working for her, and is tearing you up.

In this situation, I would still reach out to her occasionally--every day or two, not multiple times per day if you aren't getting anything back from her.


I've got no way to know for sure. She could be ready to end things with you, and that would change things for you. Right now you are trying to move back in with her, repair/maintain a relationship with her, and one with your daughter. If she is really done, your goals with her change to being civil enough to see your daughter, and finding a different place to live in Germany, assuming you do want to return.

The reason I'm doubting is that the nature of BPD is to feel a certain way today... .Angry/jealous/hurt by your abandoning her for your other family in the US, which is how she FEELS, even though that isn't want you are doing... .and to twist reality, facts, the past, and the future to match that feeling she has right now.

And feelings do change, and hers will. And given that she has BPD, she is likely to twist reality, the past, and the future back into a new direction at this time... .and that will probably involve you moving back in, etc.

Focus on this point.  If you need encouragement... .or energy.  Focus on "not giving her the pleasure of knowing... ."

FF

Thanks very much FF and Grey Kitty. I've reached out to some English-speaking German attorneys and have heard back from one who is open to a consultation.

We'll see how it goes, the silent treatment is tough to take since I have no idea how my daughter is doing.

What are you doing to "take it" right now?

I would encourage you to add things to take care of you... .specifically because of this.

Go for walks... .or extra walks.  Listen to soothing music on walk.

Go out to breakfast a couple extra times a week.  Make sure there is time to linger over an extra cup of coffee and that book you have been wanting to read.

etc etc

FF

FF - thanks for your concern. I'm not doing well. I have plenty of time to read.

I'm reading a book entitled "Becoming The Narcissist's Nightmare: How to Devalue and Discard the Narcissist While Supplying Yourself". Good so far. Although I believe my gf has BPD, I know there are overlapping traits with NPD.

Seems like the major difference is intent. A narcissist knows exactly what they're doing and gets off on hurting and manipulating others for "supply", while pwBPD don't normally intent to hurt you. They are in such pain that their own emotions are all over the place. With that said, my gf definitely does some cruel things and I'm not sure right now if it's actually BPD or a combination of BPD/NPD. I'm no doctor.

I do know, however, that her childhood matches closely with the risk factors for BPD: she was told she was "ugly" constantly, was made to walk behind her stepfather and Mother, told nobody loved her, locked in a cellar for 24 hours in the dark as punishment (at 8 years old!), denied food, made to take ice cold showers as punishment, locked out of the house and forced out of the home at 16 years old. The worst, however, was that her mother did not step up to protect her against her stepfather. This, she says was the worst part.  There was also no physical touch or nurturing. She told me the first time she ever remembered getting a hug was at 16 when her friend's mother gave her a hug when she was leaving after a sleepover. She said she froze up and didn't know what to do - it was such a shock to her.  Many more stories like that - coupled with a history of many broken relationships in her past plus all the behavior I've seen - lead me to believe she has BPD.  She also told me one time, "I have this thing where if someone is not physically present with me, I feel like they don't love me anymore".  That was a big tip-off. She thinks she is Bipolar, but I'm not sure about that. Her moods cycle too quickly for that, in my opinion. But she has said, "I know I have something". She acknowledges a problem.

But she does show signs of NPD as well. For example, a couple months ago we were in Starbucks and she admired the new mugs the coffee were served in (they don't use paper cups in Europe). When we got back to the car, she pulled one of those mugs out of her purse. She had stolen the mug. She had a big smile and looked really proud of herself.

 I said, "Are you kidding me? You STOLE one of Starbucks' mugs?"
She defended it by saying, "It's a big company. They can afford to lose a few mugs".
I said, "They sell the exact same mugs for 12€ right in the store. If you had wanted one, I would have bought one for you no problem. I hope they didn't have a camera in there. Take it back"
She refused.
I brought this up a few times over the course of the next week saying, "That really shows your lack of respect for societal rules and your sense of entitlement. What grown 40-year old woman just steals a mug from Starbucks? That's just bizarre. I hope you NEVER do stuff like that in front of our daughter".

She said she would bring it back to Starbucks but she never did.

That - to me - sounds narcissistic, not so much BPD, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, this book is helpful in understanding the mind games personality disordered people play on those around them.

Other than that, I have a pit in my stomach 24/7 and am trying hard to focus, not obsess and not reach out to her and look at what time it is over there in anticipation of her having a "change of heart" and opening up communication to me.

Another thing I'm struggling with is a comment she made a couple weeks ago when she "broke up" with me. She said,

"We all lost" (meaning her, me and my daughter)
"You with your family in LA once and for all" (meaning I would stay in LA with my two older daughters and not come back to her).

This seems like self-protection: "dropping me before I drop her" kind-of-stuff.

A few days later she said, "live your life in LA and at least be a Dad to your other two daughters"

I replied that it was NEVER my intent to stay in LA for Christmas - that I was only going to stay through the first week of November, then return to Germany.

Now I feel like this silence is sort of a "test" to see if I was lying about that and would really come back to Germany for Christmas.

But what a terrible setup: she kicks me out, tells me to stay in LA for Christmas with my older daughters and bars the door to our home. And then says she's reporting me to the police for something I didn't do. And if I don't come back, I am the bad guy, the liar, the one who left them, the one who doesn't care.

I'm trying really hard to resist this incredible pressure to RUN BACK TO HER - in spite of the stuff she's pulling - and say, "See? I never intended to leave you" to prove her wrong. And we all have a happy Hollywood ending with lots of tears and hugs. This sort of stuff has happened before.

It's crazy these tests she sets up constantly to test my love and commitment to her. And somehow I'm always in the position of having to prove I'm not the "bad guy", that I have good intentions, that I'm not leaving her, etc. And she always places roadblocks in my path.

She pushes me away REALLY HARD - hardest ever this time - and then I have to "run after her" to prove my love. I ignored some of these games in the past and her comment was "Wow, you're not much of a fighter for what you value" - and "this must be REAL love" or something like that.

On the other hand, she is ready to leave the relationship at the drop of a hat. One wrong word in a discussion about our relationship and she'll say things like, "maybe we're not right for each other", etc. "I don't need you. I can't do it alone, but I don't need YOU. I will find a good Dad for our daughter, believe me". That sort of stuff. Devaluing and threatening to leave at any time.

So she pushes away to test and I lose: Yes, she gets the validation she needs, but it puts me in a weaker position. If I run back to prove my love, I'm no longer the "bad guy" in the scenario anymore, but I've now jumped through her manipulative hoops which devalues me in the relationship. When all I wanted to do was prove I'm not the bad guy she thinks I am and show her that I will be there for her.

I'm really struggling.

It's very difficult for me NOT to hop on a plane and go back to Germany because I know if I don't, I'll be split black the rest of my life and this will be one more thing to "prove" I wasn't committed to her. (In a very twisted way).

Even though she was the one who "broke up" with me, told me I could not come home for Christmas, is blocking me from seeing my daughter and has now booked a 10-day vacation to take my daughter "somewhere" (she won't tell me where) from Dec 22 - Dec 30th. Making it impossible to spend Christmas with my daughter in any way even if I DID come back. I think she's going to Turkey on vacation, but she will NOT answer any questions about where or who she is going with.

So I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I fly to Germany (thus proving I never intended to stay in LA for Christmas), then I will spend Christmas alone. And she "wins" (in her mind because she pulled me away from my other two daughters). Yes, I will "prove" that I wanted to be there for her and my daughter. And maybe that will count for something in her eyes, but she has punished me, made me come back against threats of police and Jugenamt reports (which she probably didn't really do) and won't even be there for Christmas.

And if stay here in LA - even though she kicked me out and barred my access to my child - then she can forever say, "See? Your Dad is just a liar. He wasn't even there for your second Christmas. He wanted to stay in LA the whole time with his older two daughters. He doesn't care about you/me. Forget about him."

This is exactly how she acts and is her pattern of behavior, although it is escalating this time, with the Police and Jugenamt threats.

I think I'm best NOT to go back, but I feel if I don't, a.) the relationship will definitely be over ... .and b.) we will be in a much more adversarial position with respect to our daughter.

Thanks... .my heart is being ripped out... .

Dude... .hang in there.

When I say "reading"... .that would be reading stuff just for fun.  Nothing at all to do with BPD or even relationships. 

I'm holding my details of opinion until you talk to a L, but the quick version is I think you need to go back.

But... .lots of stuff to sort out.

You determine where you live.  Not her... .But... .you don't fight with her about it.  You just do it.

Again... .get info from L... .then let's get stuff straight.

FF

FF - thanks.

So it sounds like you mean just go back to our apartment? And say, "I'm home". Basically like that? And then have a backup plan in case something goes wrong? Or do you mean go back to the same city?

Thanks... .

The book you are reading sounds like it has a lot of information in it about how NPD operates. From the title, it sounds like trying to beat a narcissist at their own game. Understanding their game is really valuable. Playing it to win isn't the solution I'd suggest, as the game is still awful even if you win. Better to disengage from the game entirely. I haven't read it, but I'm going to suggest you take the suggested strategies in it with a grain of salt.

If the person in question has really strong NPD traits, the only option may be removing them from their life. (Or playing games to win like that book might suggest)

What I've seen is that BPD & NPD traits are often mixed up, and your gf sounds more like that. I think the key in dealing with her is to remember that how fast her emotions cycle and spin.

One thing we say here is that for her, feelings = facts. If she feels abandoned by you because you aren't there with her, that feeling is hers, and it is real. And what she does is make all facts now agree with that feeling, not reality:
Those are just a couple examples. I'm sure you can find a dozen more. And they apply to the future too--she "knows" you are going to abandon her forever. To her that is an absolute fact, and she believes it.

(And if you do get through this, move back in, etc., all of this will vanish again when you are painted white. If/when her feelings change, all the facts change with them.)


Trust me--if you play her game with her rules, you WILL lose. Whether you stay together or not, you will lose. To make things worse, she won't actually win either--nobody can win in this game. You've been doing it for four years... .do you see any sign of her being happy? I know you aren't!

Her feelings aren't stable. You've let her "lead", and you are seeing where it will take you. It will only continue escalating, and get worse if you keep following her.

If you follow your own values, you will be better off. Your relationship with her has a chance of getting better, although that will depend on both you and her.

So what does that look like?

First, DON'T BELIEVE her twisted reality or the lose/lose choices she is forcing onto you.

Second, don't argue with her about her twisted reality. You won't convince her. (Has it worked yet?) What she will "hear" is that her feelings are wrong, and this further invalidation will just make those feelings worse, making her more angry with you.

You have time to read. Please read this:
TOOLS: Stop Invalidating Your Partner (https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating;all)
Look back at previous fights you had with her--you probably said a lot of invalidating things. Don't be hard on yourself--When you are provoked like you were, it is a completely "natural" reaction. Work on how you can not do it in the future.


You need to act to protect yourself, and to take care of your daughter. You know what is good for you, and you can do it. You also know what is right for your daughter--Being with her, talking to her and being loving to her (if and when you can). Supporting her mother financially so she is physically taken care of.

She will tell you that you are doing 10,000 horrible things to her and your daughter. This is her way of trying to manipulate you and punish you. You probably can't stop her... .but you don't have to believe it, and you don't have to do what she demands to "redeem" yourself for it. You know that it won't work--like you said, if you fly back to Germany, you will spend Christmas alone, rejected by her and kept away from your daughter.

Dunno what FF means, but here's my $.02

1. Don't go back without good legal advise on what can happen.

In many BPD relationships, the next level of escalation is physical violence, and if she physically attacks you, you are at real risk; I don't know German law, but in most places, as a man you are at a real disadvantage regarding any domestic violence incidents. DV is often equated to "wife beating", and if you do things to defend yourself, you may end up in jail, instead of her. She might make false accusations here too, which could also put you in jail.

How to deal with this, should it happen is an area you need legal advice, but the one thing I will STRONGLY suggest is that you be prepared to remove yourself immediately from her presence, preferably BEFORE she becomes physically violent.

2. Make your plan to return to Germany in a way that fits YOUR values, and what you know/believe to be true.

You say she's going to leave on Dec 22nd and take your daughter away for 10 days. If you believe that, don't go back expecting to see either of them in this timeframe unless you can get German authorities to stop her from taking your daughter away. (I doubt it will work or go well... .but talk to your German lawyer about it before even thinking of trying that!)

Consider telling her that you would love to spend Dec 22-30 with her and your daughter. That you will fly in and meet her if she tells you where to go.

And let us help you craft your message--it should be your words. Let us see a draft before you say/send anything. She may not accept this offer... .but your old patterns with her could well guarantee a refusal.

Unless a lawyer tells you that you are putting yourself in a bad legal position, you need to go back and at least be close by to see your daughter.  That is where my "gut" is.  Letting a disordered person run your travel schedule and control access to your daughter is a BAD PLAN.

100% agree with GK that before you reach out again... .post your message here... .we can help.  Important that you send good message AND that you start understanding why we push for changes in messages that you initially craft. 

When you talk to a L.

1. Discuss access to your daughter.  Do you have birth certificate... .are you named... .etc etc.
2.  Can you record without consent in Germany?  If the answer is no... .how much trouble will you get in compared to a DV charge.  My gut says that you are better off to prove the truth and get in trouble for recording... .BUT... .let a L guide you.
3.  Discuss what will/can happen if you come home, put your key in door, your key works and you let yourself in.  I'm assuming you still have stuff there.  Are you on the lease?  Make sure he knows all details.  Before I would ever advise you to just "walk in"... .you need to know legal status... .for sure.

Anyone think of other questions to ask the L.

I 100% agree with GK... .STOP playing her game.  Play yours.  See your daughter. She will flip out... .that is her business.  After she flips out a bunch... .and you stay calm.  She will likely calm down.

FF

That's a very good point about her "reality".


So what do I do when she pushes me away.  If I go back, I'm playing by her rules, correct?  And if I stay, since she's the one doing the pushing away, then it's also her rules.


You're right.  I take what she says at face value - even though I should know better.  It's hard to not take what an adult (especially your partner) says seriously.  But I know her twisted reality isn't healthy.  But I don't know how to take charge of that "reality" without refuting it or invalidating it.  I'm sure that link you posted about "Stop Invalidating Your Partner" will really help.  Thanks for that.


Absolutely.  I'm shocked at some of the stuff that comes out of her mouth and try to "call her" on it.  It's a way of me asserting my boundaries (maybe wrongly) not being walked all over.  At least that's how I see it in my mind.  I hear such twisted things coming out of her mouth and I just jump on it and try to "squash" them before they have a change to get worse.  Example: lies and devaluation of me and my role as a father.  I'll read up on that "stop invalidating your partner" post for guidance.  I feel like if I let these delusions hang out there without challenging them, they'll get worse and "cemented in".  I'm sure this is NOT the correct way to deal with it, however.


That is 100% true.


This is an ongoing theme in our relationship.  "Never good enough", minimizes anything I do.


I'm not sure what that means.  Is this what you mean by "playing her game"?  In other words, by going back to Germany before Christmas that's seen as a way of "redeeming myself" and thus, playing into her game?  So she can devalue me and "punish me" by making me spend Christmas alone?

Or could it be seen as "Hey - I was planning on coming back anyway.  I live here. This is my daughter.  You don't determine if I am in or out of my life.  Deal with it" ?

Not sure here what "not playing her game" in this context would mean.

Thanks very much... .

I agree 100%.  I spoke to my father who is a lawyer here in the States (doesn't mean much given German law) but he said I shouldn't worry that the Jugenamt will put me in handcuffs when I get off the plane.  To get to that point is a long legal process.  He also scoffed at her "reporting me to the police" as ridiculous.  There is no way to prove I took it (because I didn't) and also people misplace passports all the time.  Doesn't mean I "stole" it.  He also feels I should go back and get things worked out in person.

Even so, I will consult a German lawyer anyway.  If nothing else, it will let me know what my rights are and ease my mind on the flight :)


This would be HUGE. Thank you.

Wish I saw this suggestion earlier.  Just yesterday I sent her an email asking to FaceTime and that I had something to tell her.  Amazingly, she responded with "just tell me".  I emailed back earlier with:

"You don't like texting/emailing like a stranger (her words) and I don't either.

We're not strangers, D.  We just celebrated our four-year anniversary as a couple and we are parents together.  Can you pls unblock Whatsapp so I can call you like a normal human being and we can speak like two adults?

I promise: no arguing or drama.

Pls unblock Whatsapp so I can give you a quick call.

Then I can tell you what is going on.

C"

The "what is going on" is me coming back next week potentially, of course.  I wanted to speak to her to find out if she really did press charges for "stealing" our daughter's passport.  She won't answer that question in emails or texts.  So I thought asking her to take a call from me could get that info.

Now... .I'm sure you guys are cringing... .so go ahead and tear that apart.  I know I have a LOT to learn about how to communicate with a pwBPD.

She has not responded to that.  What should my next communication be?


Three years in jail for recording without consent.  Big deal over there.  However, journals and self-documentation are held to a very high standard in court, amazingly.  I have lots of documentation in a journal.  But all very good points to bring up with a lawyer.


So does that mean I go back right away before Christmas?  Does "playing her game" mean I stay in LA like her words are pushing me to do?  Or does "playing her game" mean she "manipulates" me back by barring access to my child and getting me to run back to her in person?

It seems like reverse psychology.  I think she wants me to come back (secretly), so is me showing up playing into "her game"? 

Really, really confused on how to handle the push-way stuff.  Do I say, "Hell no, you won't determine if I'm pushed away" as a way to challenge her game?  Or do I say, "okay, no problem", go dark for a while and come back on my own terms, ignore the "you're a terrible father" and splitting black?

Thanks... .

You do need to understand what German law says about your parental rights (presumably you have some right to see your daughter!), and responsibilities (presumably you have some obligations for child support.) And know what will happen if there is a domestic violence incident. (Has she ever been physically violent before?)

Knowing that you cannot record her without her being aware or consenting is good. Things like that are why you need to talk to a good lawyer.

... .and if you are charged with non-support, I'm hoping that the first choice by law enforcement isn't putting you in jail, making sure you can't earn money for support. ('Tho it might happen; That's why you talk to a lawyer!)

---

It would be nice if she unblocked you, and be nice if she was willing to talk to you voice, or video while you are away.

Please don't fight about it. If she isn't interested, don't push.

1. If she's angry and upset with you, that kind of conversation will just become a louder fight, and be more ugly stuff the two of you have to recover from later. So if you "win" and get her on the phone, you lose anyways.

2. This is one more way for her to reject you, and you to chase after her in a needy way that won't impress her.

3. It isn't what you want right now. You want to go back to Germany and spend time with her and your daughter. Fighting about whether to talk on the phone or not is a sideshow.

Please let this one go.

---

Her game is applying ALL POSSIBLE PRESSURE on you right now, because she's dysregulated right now.

Don't react just to the pressure. Instead, consider the real options you have for going back: Here are a few I can think of:

1. Schedule the earliest flight to Germany. I'm assuming your business in the US is done now, so you can go, and that you either have a return ticket already, or can afford one on however short notice it is.

I'd make sure that you have 4-5 days before the vacation, and I'd plan on moving back into the apartment. (I'm assuming that you are on the lease, and that you aren't afraid of physical violence from her.)

You may be able to go on the 10-day trip; you may not. You might be able to negotiate something to see your daughter even if you don't go, possibly keeping her?

2. Make a return flight after this vacation is done. I'd probably fly in a day or two after her scheduled return.

... .either way, I'd plan on moving back in unless there was a compelling reason not to. (Talk to the lawyer yet again!)

... .and either way, I'd be prepared to have to find another place to stay on short notice if things go badly. (Have you ever been kicked out previously?)

3. Ask her where you can meet her to do the vacation as a family, and make your travel plans to join her for all or some of the vacation, at least Christmas... .being clear that you need this information to make your travel plans and see her at Christmas. (This was what I suggested earlier.)


Begging or badgering her to invite you back / take you back is the wrong approach.


What sounds like what YOU want to do? Are you done in the US and ready to go? Can you fly on short notice? You need to decide that before you discuss it with her.

Chiming in with my .02cents.
I have a different perspective on "silent treatment".  I think that it is a type of mental time out that a people need to regulate themselves.  Even in non-BPD environment/relationships, there are moments such as these... .for instance, I am upset at something and I know that I need a moment to clear my head and regain inner balance.  I believe that because the BPD emotions are so intense, they need longer time, and stronger solitude and isolation from their "trigger" to recover.  I think that the best course is to let the "silen treatment" run its course.  If it is interrupted with attempts to bridge it, then the attempts most probably increase the duration or the intensity of the "silent treatment" phenomenon.

I believe that the "silent treatment" could be  a self-control/self-soothing  mechanism, not a weapon to hurt the loved one.

About journaling:  I remember someone's else's suggestion:  that it is best only to describe the behavior without using diagnostic terms like "BPD" or ""NPD".

About recording:  A poster here in a very difficult situation, carried a video camara with him at all times.  Instead of videotaping her, he would turn the camera only on himself and say clearly on the camera.  I am turning this camera on to record myself... .this way, the audio was recorded, the statement was clear that the equipment was being turned on... .and after that, whatever the audio occurred, the statement was calmly repeated several times into the camera... .I am recording myself.  The camera was never turned on to the other person unless it was a public place where the recording laws did not apply.

I think that legal advise and formal retention of a German lawyer is a good idea.  You are dealing with a mental disorder.  So, being prepared for false accusations is a good idea... .you are the fiduciary of your daughter.  It is your sacred duty to protect yourself the best you can for your child's sake.  This is not a battle against your girlfriend, nor a battle against a disorder.  It is not a battle at all.  It is a self-protection strategy... .with the ultimate aim of being intact spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, fiscally for all your children... .especially the youngest one.

God bless... .and thank you for sharing such intimate secrets with us.

... .and I am not quite sure that you will be able to heal the damage done by others (her parents).  The knight in the shining armor is a seductive role, but I am not quite sure if it is quite effective.  Love may not be able to cure a mental disorder.  With a well established communication skill set, you will be able to manage it... .perhaps not cure it. 

A little bit. She has pushed me out of her way, slapped me before, pounded me on the chest with her fists a couple times, but not hard. She's not a very violent person. I'm a trained martial artist, so I know how to restrain myself. I would never be provoked to strike her.


I'll back off. I do tent to push (verbally). I'm afraid if I don't stay "top of mind" and somehow remind her of our history, our good times, etc, that she'll rebound with another guy and ruin any hopes of reuniting forever. I asked her a couple weeks ago if she cheated on me and she said, "No. this is just about us".

I then asked her if she is seeing someone else. She said, "No, but I will".

Not sure if this is just a hurt/jealousy play (she likes to make me jealous), but I've never uncovered any evidence of her cheating and she claims she has never cheated on any boyfriend in the past. She said, "I would break up first"
Which, of course, worries me, since she technically "broke up" with me a couple weeks ago.


Makes sense. As you can tell by now, I do tend to run after her.  This has worked in the past, but puts me in a powerless situation because I'm always the one taking responsibility, saying sorry, etc.

What IS the best way to get back with her?  It's difficult for me to just "lay back" and not tell her my feelings, wrap my arms around her and tell her I missed her and she got it all wrong.

Let's say I bump into her on the street with my daughter on the way to Kindergarten (that was my plan: to meet on neutral ground).

Do I act like nothing has happened and try to give her a hug or what?  :)o I say, "Hey. I'm here. Just like I promised. I would never leave you and M." And then wrap my arms around her?

Or do I say "Hi" to my daughter, lift her up out of the stroller and hug her - and just be ultra cool with my girlfriend / ex?  "Hey, what's up". Or even just "Hi".

If I do that (the ultra cool method) it almost implies I accept that we're now officially "exes".  I'm not sure I want that "frame" out there.

It seems like I should "assume the sale": put my arm around her, imply she was overreacting, everything is okay, I promised I would be back and she can relax again. Then sort of brush it off.

Thoughts on which approach is better?


Agreed.


This is do-able. I'm actually interviewing for a new job there now, too, so I need to go back asap anyway.


I'm not on the lease (she made sure of that two years ago). And she's not really the violent type. More of the silent, brooding, withholding, cold type (when she's mad). She has said multiple times recently, "You are NOT coming back to MY apartment. Period. I was wrong to have "taken you back" the last times you "left" (traveled to the States to see my other daughters). And I won't let you come back this time. I have changed the locks, blah blah... .


Both are doubtful.  So far, she won't tell me where she is going or with whom. It could be some guy for all I know. Maybe this is the reason she is stonewalling now when I ask her information about the trip. And maybe it's a "dirty conscience" on her part and that's why she is cutting off all contact: cognitive dissonance. She can't handle telling me or letting me find out, so she stonewalls.

This is the first time she has deliberately withheld information about where she was taking my daughter.


Well, it's technically her place, so I would be nervous if I were to let myself in after she clearly told me I could not come back. I'll talk to the lawyer about that.


Every time I go to the States I have to beg to come home. One other time while I was home she kicked me out for a night.  But I'm already working on another place to stay through the end of January (just in case). It's a block away from her place. Problem is, if I'm so close she can rely on me taking my daughter places, helping her with groceries, etc, without committing to ME or our family again. I just become a useful appendage to her, without any incentive for me moving back in. She "gets the milk without the cow" (as girls say).

Even worse is if she starts to date and I'm used as a "convenient babysitter" any time she wants to go out with other guys. Would be horrendous for me. Not sure what the best play is here. I've said in the past if we're no longer a couple/family, I won't stick around Germany because I have two other children in California. This gets her attention. My goal is to get back home.

How do I do that? Is it a good idea for me to get this place close by?


This is a good idea.  But I know she'll say, "no". I'm 100% positive of that.
Worth a try, however. How would I go about doing that? Email is the only channel we have right now.

What is the best way to phrase that message? Lovingly? Laid-back? No clue how to approach this.


It has worked in the past, but she seems determined now (especially since she has a new "counselor" to not let me come back.  I think you're right.

But what IS the best way to get her back in the relationship?  What is the best way to reunite our family?

Just act non-chalant and escalate each time I see her again? Like dating all over again?

If I get the place I'm thinking about, I will literally be around the corner. One of big points she hurts me with over and over is "you're not a supportive Dad" and "I can't count on you".

Untrue, but that's reality for her. She never says his to me when I am physically present with her there. I do everything with her and my daughter.  But she brings this out when I'm on a trip to make me feel "less than". By being so close she would see (hopefully) that she CAN, of course, count on me.

1.). How do I "structure" the email request to meet her on vacation?

2.). And how do I structure the in-person interaction? Since she won't answer her phone, I don't want to be in a situation where I'm buzzing at her door and she tells me to go away. And then I'm back to silence again. And maybe she calls the cops.

This is why I'm thinking it might be good to "bump into her" on the way to taking my daughter to Kindergarten in the morning.  She would have no way to avoid me and when she sees me, maybe she'll have *some* feelings left and want to talk.

She has a predictable routine and I can pop up in a non-threatening way. Especially when I see my daughter. I really don't think she would refuse to let me hold or say hi to my daughter if I saw her in a stroller on the street.

But who knows? She's acting very different this time around - much colder.

Your help is GREATLY appreciated!

This makes a lot of sense and seems like a healthy, more loving way to view it.


Thank you for taking the time to help - as well as your suggestions.

Big concept here. 

When there is a big PUSH or a big PULL in the r/s.  Your job is to moderate this  Calm things down.

I'm less interested in teaching you EXACTLY what to say than I am in your getting the concept.

Think 1-10 scale... .10 is worst or BIG.  She pushes you away with a 6 then you give her a return push at a 3.  Perhaps you will do better thinking about validating a "push emotion" (such as I'm scared and need to get away from r/s)... .but toning it down a bit.

FF

Another way.  When somebody's words and/or actions are saying they don't want to talk to you right now.  Best to believe them

Great you talked to your Dad.  You need detailed discussion with German L.  Likely a couple so you can get follow up questions answered.

Especially about the recording thing.

Last:  I saw somewhere that you do martial arts.  There are two parts.  Mental self control and practicing a skill.

1.  Mental self control:  Focus focus focus on slowing down your mental reactions.  Being delieberate about deciding if you stay engaged and validate, should I disengage for a few minutes, just listen.  etc etc.

2.  The skill I want you to practice.

https://youtu.be/YSreLt-qR1k

Yep... .seriously... .get a paddle ball.  Really... .

Then... .I want you to imagine that you are the paddle, she is the ball and the rubber band is the relationship.

Point of empathy:  She desperately... .DESPERATELY... .wants a r/s with you.  At the same time it scares the bejesus out of her.  Those feelings change in an instant.

When she comes charging at your "paddle" your job is for her to "fly away" from the paddle as short a distance as possible.  

Thoughts on the analogy?  

FF

What PV said about silent treatment not necessarily a punishment is right on.

This is just semantics, but when it is intended to be a punishment, I call it "silent treatment", and when that is not the intention, I don't call it that. You obviously cannot read somebody's mind, but you still have a clue or two. One version that is more obvious in person is when you are studiously ignored, while others get a normal or even warm reception in very clear contrast.

One thing I experienced from my wife was that she would reject me (silent treatment) intentionally... .then get over the "punishment" phase, but not start talking to me yet. Sometimes her attention got focused on something else. Other times, she was embarrassed because she realized that her behavior was out of line, and probably was afraid I would reject her in response. So she was kinda "stuck" and couldn't easily back down.

But once she stopped talking to me, I often couldn't tell if the silence was still angry, or if she'd gotten over it yet.

I found that I could reach out with a gentle "touch" in a way that didn't demand a response (if she was still angry), but let her know she was appreciated/welcomed, and wouldn't get her head bit off if she engaged with me. BTW, the non-verbal nuance of that in person made it far easier to accomplish than it would be long-distance.

And yes, I often went "silent" or removed myself from her, especially after I started working on the tools here. I realized that when I was angry and upset, I would say the wrong things, making things worse. [Yes, I learned that the hard way!] So I would remove myself and let her THINK horrible things about me and why I was doing this, if she wanted to--because it was better than saying horrible things to her if I were to stay!

WARNING: In most jurisdictions, restraining another person is legally domestic violence. Even if it is to protect yourself from her hitting you, that is a very dangerous thing for you to do. (Probably worse since you are a trained martial artist)

Please ask your soon-to-be-consulted German lawyer about this!


I'd suggest you start with two premises overall:

1. Believe what she is feeling, or what she tells you. She really does feel it, and really does mean it.
2. Understand that these feelings can and will do a 180 flip in seconds.

With the side premise that some of the things she states as "facts" are completely wrong... .and most likely, you have no need to either believe them or prove them wrong.

So... .you were living in this apartment. I presume you left belongings there. Further, you work, and she doesn't, so you pay the rent there, and pay her living expenses. You know this is true. It doesn't fit her current feelings (rejecting you/etc.), so she's pretending it isn't. DON'T fight over these "facts"--nothing good will come from fighting about it.

There is another true part--You have no right to live with her if she doesn't want you there. (Especially with your name not on the lease!)

Anyhow, I recommend you run your plan past your lawyer before doing it, but here's the sort of thing I'd do in your shoes:

I'd go back sooner, rather than later.

I'd ask her to let me move back in. I might say something along these lines:

I'd have a backup place to stay lined up. The place nearby sounds like a good idea. A few things I'd avoid--No long term commitment, lease, or anything, so you can move back in if invited. Since she's prone to jealousy, nothing that might look like you are seeing another woman in Germany either. (I'm assuming that it won't be a financial hardship for you to pay for an additional place for yourself thru January... .It would be more complicated if you can't easily afford it.)

I'd also probably put off asking to move back in until she at least knew and accepted that I was going back to Germany... .or until I'd made it back already, depending on the reception I was getting.

I would never touch her in the heat of an argument. I would just walk out.


Good points. On the one hand, I tend to believe that she's using her twisted reality filter to "test me" and that she doesn't really believe the stuff she is saying, such as "I don't love you. Get out of my life, I'm so done with you, you have no woman and no home to come back to", etc. In other words, it's feels to me that it's just a self-protective "distancing" technique - a reverse psychology ploy - to draw me back in, prove my love to her, test my commitment to her, etc. And that she says this stuff to pull me back in.

Because when I see her again, her feelings slowly change and she warms up to me again. And we're a couple again, talking about the future, how to raise our child together, getting married, etc.

But maybe that's dead wrong. Maybe you're right. Maybe she really DOES feel this way when she says these things and she "flips" 180 degrees when I see her again. That has really never 


I don't pay all the expenses. She gets "Elterngeld" (parent money) from the government which all new mothers get for at least a year in Germany (regardless of partner's support). She does not depend on me for income or support. I do have stuff there. Every time I go on a trip to the States, she puts these things in the cellar / storage.


Sounds like a good approach.


I will wait until I get back. In her mind, I've left her and our daughter forever. I think showing up there before Christmas will create cognitive dissonance for her and maybe she'll see I was planning on coming home all along. Or at least I care enough to come back. Maybe this will work to warm her up again, or maybe she really is "done" with me this time (it really feels different than before with the no drama / no contact on her part).

Thanks for the suggestions.

It will be helpful for you to stay away from evaluating her motivations (such as testing you).

Believe what she says... .just hold it loosely.  It will change quickly.  Don't challenge her on it.

New reality is new reality... .

FF

Hi, codependable. I've been catching up on your thread. What a mess!

I agree with other posters that the first thing you need is to hire a German attorney. Your GF has made several claims and threats. With BPD, it's possible that they are all true, some are true, or none are true. Here are the claims/threats I noticed:

1. She's filed charges with the police to have you arrested.
2. She's changed the locks.
3. She's reported you as a deadbeat dad to a German social services agency.
4. She's taking your daughter on an extended vacation over Christmas.
5. She has started seeing a new counselor who says you are the problem.

These could all be lies. They could be half-truths. But, you NEED that attorney because of claims 1 and 3. Your attorney can, I presume, act as your representative to contact the authorities to determine if there is any truth to her threats. That's what you need to know to determine if it is safe for you to return to Germany right now.

Your attorney can also advise you on your rights regarding the apartment, your property, and access to your daughter, which you can use to make a MUCH more informed plan about what to do and where to stay when you return. Right now, you are flying blind and just guessing, and that's a very dangerous position to be in.

Some people are manipulative, and will say things that they know aren't true as a ploy to manipulate you. This is more likely with NPD. With BPD, what is more common is that they do believe what they are saying at the time they are saying it. I'd suggest that if you assume that she does mean it when she says it, your interactions with her will go better than if you assume she knows it isn't true but is intentionally saying it to manipulate you.

HOWEVER, even if she believes it, these things ARE manipulative, and they can be very effective at drawing you in. Be aware of that too, and try not to react and get drawn in in an unhealthy way.

Whether her feelings shift in seconds, minutes, hours, or days, it doesn't really matter. The point is that while she sincerely believes it when she is saying it, she also sincerely believes it when she's being warm and loving and talking about a future with you.

For somebody like you or I, the contradiction is obvious and crazy-making, making a sudden flip like that isn't really possible. For her, it is "normal" ... .even if it is still crazy-making!


Ultimately, you will have to accept that she is that contradictory. Whatever the source or the reason.

What would be "drawn in in an unhealthy way?"


Yes, I think I have accepted that.  SO difficult to deal with.

Incidentally, I got her on the phone and we talked.  Here is the upshot of the conversation:

1.)  She claimed she reported our daughter's passport as missing to the police so someone else couldn't use it - and after asking a few times said she did NOT give my name in connection with the missing passport.  I asked twice to make sure.  I tend to believe her.

2.)  She said again that she changed the locks and doesn't want me home.  "You won't come back here ever again".

3.) She has an "expert" who told her (supposedly) that it's better for our daughter NOT to have a Dad in her life than have a Dad who travels a few times a year to the States.  She said, "From what I understand and from the advice I got, it's better not to have a Dad at all.  She doesn't even miss you she doesn't even know you're there, than being always in this loop of "okay, when will he leave again? When will he be there?".  

This is in reference to my trips to visit my other daughters in the States.  Once again, this all started because I went to visit them for three weeks and take care of some other business.  I went two other times this year, both of which were extended well beyond the original 2 or 3 weeks because she refused to allow me to come home.  (Incidentally, her comments about my daughter's feelings sound like she's projecting her feelings onto my daughter - who loves me to death and is SO happy to see me and spend time with me).

4.)  When I asked her about Facetiming with my daughter, here is her response:

"It’s all about YOUR needs.  You want to see her on Facetime.  You don’t even think about what it does to her.  She’s a little tiny kid.  She doesn’t really understand.  I can’t explain to her like a 10 year old, 'you can’t touch him, you can only see him'.  And when he waves goodbye and the screen is black again, too bad, so sad.  He’s gone.  And if you feel like saying, 'Hi' again and grab him or cuddle with him, no way.  I can’t explain this to her.  It’s driving her crazy.  And you can't say, 'Even if she doesn’t feel like it, she still has to do it - to FaceTime'.  This is like RAPING.  You want to see her on FaceTime, but it doesn’t do her good."

I don't even know what to say to this. It's so insane. Maybe my daughter does cry / get upset after our Facetimes.  Who knows?  Maybe it's because her Mother pushed me out of her life and she DOES miss me.

5.)  Her position: "The reality is, you just pop up leave whenever you feel like it and for how long you feel like it.  And this is just not good for little kids.  It makes her feel unsafe, she can’t count on you, it makes her feel like it’s her fault cause it feels for her like you leaving her.  It hurts her. And it will damage her for the rest of her life.  I have to protect her.  I will protect her."

This, of course, is ridiculous.  I don't "pop up and leave whenever I feel like it".  We discuss it together, look at calendars, etc.  I go for a planned three-week trip and she kicks me out.  And that's why I'm gone so long.  She takes NOT responsibility for this.

6.)  Her "solution" is for me never to see my daughter again(!).  I asked if the solution was for me never to see my daughter again.  She said, "Probably."  I replied, "So this means when I come back to Germany you won’t let me see her?" She said, "You won’t come back to Berlin. Why should you?".  I said, "Well, because I have a family there."  Round and round.

7.)  I pointed out that she bars the door to my return every time I go to the States.  I said, "So when I take you at your word when you say, 'Okay, go for two or three weeks and get back as soon as you can' and I fly to the US, then two weeks goes by and you say, “Don’t ever come back”.  Her response was, "Yeah, I had time to think about that and we have a really, really bad unhealthy relationship and I finally got it and finally made my final decision to not keep going with that."

8.) I asked her if she was seeing someone else and she said, "No, it has nothing to do with someone else.  It only has to do with you, me and M.  That’s all."

9.)  She keeps equating me going to the States with me "not supporting her".  She is 100% hung up on this point.  Somehow in her mind if I travel to the US for a couple of weeks, I've "left her" and I'm "not a supportive guy".

I believe it's intense jealousy against my other daughters and the great relationship I have with them (in spite of me living in Germany).  They are happy and thankful for any time they can spend with me.

10.)  She keeps pointing out that I "haven't been in our daughter's life for half of her life".  

This is, of course, not true.  I wanted to validate, but I just couldn't.  I said, "That's not true.  I can show you a calendar, okay?  But if it's true I was gone so much, most of the time it was because you wouldn’t let me come HOME.  And that made it so much longer."

She said, "You blame everyone else for your mistakes and put it on someone else.  You are the master of that, I know that.  And that’s why I don’t even think about what you say anymore." (total projection on her part)

I said, "I feel bad about the time I haven't been there.  I wish I didn't have to take this trip this last time.  But do you take responsibility for your part in me being gone so long at all?"

Her response was, "Yeah.  I should have kicked you out before M was born." (never, ever takes responsibility or sees things from my point of view or even tries).

11.)  Totally shut-down, cold and uncaring.

I tried to tell her that I love her and want to fight to make things right.  

I said, "Two weeks into me being here, getting M’s documents and all this stuff, you tell me I’m out again.  And it’s the same thing you did every time that I came here.  Every time I came here you made my trip last so much longer because you told me that I couldn’t come home.  And then I’d sit here for a month, two months saying, “Come on, I was supposed to be home. Let me come home”.  Every single time this is what happened.  If it wasn't for you, I would have had three three-week trips.  Instead of five months.  This was not my choice.  This time, I would have been home in early November after I voted.  But you keep pushing me out saying, “No, you can’t come home”.  This is what happens.  Please look at your side of it for once.  Look at what you do.  For once.

D, I love you.  I am willing to do anything I can - and that means committing to not coming back to the States for at least five years, unless there is a death in the family - to be there a as a partner for you, working my new job, and being a good partner.  Simple life.  Just bringing money in, being a good partner to you and a great Dad to M.  And not leaving.  This was the last thing I needed to do because I have documents here and A was sick.  And I would hope that you have the heart to understand that I didn’t even want to come here this time.  :)o you remember?  But I felt like I had to go because A has CANCER.  And I also had to get M’s documents.  And I had to vote.  And I had to do a few other things that I needed to do in the States.  And I did that and somehow you felt abandoned, you felt like I "left you" again and it triggered bad feelings.  But I am willing to do whatever it takes - go to counseling, be completely honest, I am totally open to that.  To save this little family or rebuild it.

Because M deserves to have me as her Dad and she deserves to have you as her Mom, and just a few weeks ago we were talking about getting married again and you were wearing my ring and we were engaged.  Please don’t give up on our little family.

Her response (ice cold): "Why did you call me?  Is there something specific you wanted to tell me?"

I said, "Yes.  Please don’t give up on our little family, D."

She said (laughing), "This must be a joke from you."

I said it wasn't a joke.

She said, "Are you so desperate - why do you even want to come back to Germany?  There is no reason for it."

I said, "There is no reason for it?  Maybe because I love you and I love M."  

She said, "Give me a break. Stop lying.  You don’t even know M and you don’t love me since I don’t know how many years. You’re disgusted by me, and whatever, it doesn’t matter. You treated me like s**t."

I asked, "How do I treat you like s**t?"

She said, "I don’t need to go into details."

I said, "No, when you say that, what do you mean?"

She said, "It doesn’t matter.  I don’t want to be loved by you, okay?  It’s terrible.  You don’t do me good at all.  You treat me like s**t, and I want someone who is really, really nice and supportive to me.  Not just leave me alone in my darkest hours in my life.  You just leave me alone cause in LA it’s just a little warmer than in Germany."

Incredible.  I leave for a couple weeks and she keeps me away - then I'm the "bad guy" for staying out so long.  (reminds me of "I hate you, don't leave me"

12.)  She still refuses to tell me where she is taking my daughter over Christmas. Here is roughly how the conversation went:

I said, "Where are you taking M?"

Her reply, "It’s not your business."

I said, "Yes, it is."

Again, she said, "No, it’s not."

I asked, "What day are you leaving?"

She said, "I’m dealing with her 24 hours all by myself …"

I said, "Yeah, and I would be there if it wasn’t for YOU, D! I would have been there a MONTH ago."

She said, "You don’t ask me anything.  You don’t ask me anything.  When you go on vacation, it’s not your business.  Period." (not true, of course: I've been begging to FaceTime with both of them, texting every day and she has gone No Contact with me).

I said, "Yes, I would have been there a month ago if it wasn’t for you.  You say you’re dealing with M every day.  I want to be in her life.  I’m telling you I want to come home - I’ve wanted to come home since Nov 8th"

She said, "A baby is a 24 hour job."

I said, "Believe me, I was there by your side doing it with you, D.  I was there by your side... ."

She said, "And then you had some F****D UP PARTIES going on in LA and that’s why you left her over and over again."

(This was because not long after our daughter was born, I had to attend my older daughter's graduation in California.  It was a gut-wrenching decision for me to go.  I wanted to send the signal to my older daughter that just because I have a new baby and I'm so far away, she's not forgotten and I still love her.  So BPDgf and I discussed it and she said, "just go and come back as soon as you can". Which I did.

However, my BPDgf keeps bringing this up and minimizing it by calling it a "f***d up school party".  She has never forgiven me for that.  I have accepted that it was TERRIBLE timing, but we both agreed I would go and come back as fast as I could.  She was fine, had no problems.  And she and I Facetimed every day and she was happy during that time.  But she holds this "grudge" against me every chance she gets.  She never lets go of this. I have acknowledged time and time again it was a difficult decision and made the best choice I could at the time.  I have apologized over 100X and said many times I probably shouldn't have gone. I was only gone two weeks (of course it should have been a few days but she pushed me to stay longer - feels like such a setup.)

I said, "No, this time it had nothing to do with a graduation and you know it."

She said, "Yeah, why?  Because you didn’t tell me this time?  This time you made something else up? But reality is, something was more important there than M.  And she’s so tiny she doesn’t understand yet.  And I won’t let you be in her life so you can hurt her."

I said, "So you’re telling me you won’t let me see her?  You’re going to block me seeing her?"

She laughed: "Haha, you won’t come back to Germany."

I said, "Of course.  I come back next week".

She said, "Okay.  You know what?  Let me know when you’re in town and we can set a time when we can sit together and talk, okay?  :)on’t bother me anymore.  Let me know when you’re in Germany.  Then we can talk, okay?"

Then she hung up.

The ice cold voice and uncaring attitude she has towards me is chilling.  It's like we have never had any connection at all - even though - as I said a moment ago, we're officially engaged and she was wearing my ring when I left on this trip.

Anyway, I did my best to take notes as we spoke on the phone, so I could reference this later.  I also wanted to give you the full back-and-forth because I'm obviously really bad at communicating with her.  I'm sure I'm doing everything wrong.  I don't have the tools to deal with this - yet.  So hopefully, you can "read between the lines" and intuit where she is coming from.  And what you think the status is of our relationship.  Is this a final discard?  Again: it sure feels like it.

All I get from her is "stay there, you can't come home, you can't be in our daughter's life anymore, and by the way, you're a bad guy for staying there so long even though I barred our door to you."

Ugh... .

Please give me some verbal tips on how to deal with this.  I'm sure I didn't do well in this conversation.  I was calm, tried to validate (as best I could when faced with such bizarre and hurtful statements) but I know I probably blew it.  Maybe I should have been more distant, cool, calm, not countered, not tried to get her to see her part in this drama.

Any tips are appreciated.  

Wow. She is very much in a different reality than you, and in her reality, she's going to keep you from your daughter. Have you hired a lawyer yet?

Yes, I'm waiting for our consultation. Is it your opinion I should not fly back to Germany at this point?

Uhm, wow indeed.

First off, don't bother fighting with her about whether it is "right" for you to facetime with your daughter or not. This might be worth reading for you:

How to stop circular arguments  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0)

Right now, she's painted you so completely black that she is going to fight to keep you away from her, your daughter and everything. You won't win this fight by convincing her that even though she totally hates you right now, you have a right to see your daughter with logic or anything.

Further, if you keep reacting to whatever she's saying right now, it will just distract you and have you chasing your tail--she is capable of creating near-infinite drama 

You *might* have a chance to reconcile once you return to Germany. (Have you consulted German lawyer yet?)

So get yourself back there, and try to reconcile with her, try to repair the relationship with her.

*IF* you give up on that, and she withholds your daughter from you, time to check in with your lawyer about custody/visitation. (As well as child support!) Chances are you have both legal rights and responsibilities with her. You may have to use the courts to see your daughter.

I don't really recommend taking legal action yet, although researching your options would be good. She's obviously upset with you, and taking her to court won't help that.

Read it.  Makes sense, although I feel like I'm just giving up and conceding all her points.  But I will try this if I have the opportunity again.


Yeah, I think you're right. I do not know what else to do, however. Do I just tell her she's right? No clue here.


So true. So don't even acknowledge what she is saying then? Just ignore the crazy, nonsensical and untrue statements? Just let them float by?


You think I have a chance of that?  What signs lead you to believe that's a possibility?  Is there something in our conversation that made you think there is still hope?


Yes.


How do I do attempt to reconcile?

What do I say? What words should I use, what should my attitude or strategy be?


She doesn't believe I will ever come back. That's part of the problem. She thinks I abandoned her forever and laughs at the idea of me coming back. Not sure if she really believes that, but maybe so. Maybe that is the glimmer of hope. Maybe I show up and it creates so much cognitive dissonance for her that she realizes maybe she was wrong about some things and gives me another chance... .

She did say that If I ever come back to Germany, that we will sit down and talk.


I will steer clear of playing hardball until I get there and see what is going on.

Can anybody help me with a "reconciliation" when I get back? How should I approach it? What should I say?

Thanks so much... .

Exactly. And what I understand of BPD is that she probably really does believe it. At least when she says it, she does. It will probably change, and the crazy-making part is that she mostly won't acknowledge that it changed... .

She really feels abandoned. The nature of this is that she will reject any facts that contradict her feelings. (And the more you try to beat her down with better facts, the worse things go!)


Getting into a circular argument isn't going to help you. My suggestion when things like this come up:

You might correct something once when it first comes up--It is generally a good idea. But drop it then, and simply refuse to discuss it anymore with her after that. Don't agree. Don't disagree. Tell her that you won't discuss it now. Hang up if you need to.

I might ask to facetime with your daughter. When she starts giving you a bunch of crazy reasons why you can't, or why it is a bad idea or why it is unhealthy... .don't get sucked into that.

Since you are planning to return to Germany soon, I'd focus on that. When you make your travel plans, I'd probably tell her when you are returning to Germany, and that you really want to see her and your daughter.

Excellent approach. I think I can do this.


I will.

Any tips on my best way to reconcile with her when I see her again in person?

I don't want to come off as too desperate, needy and push her away. On the other hand, I want to make sure she understands that I love her and want to remain - or try to rebuild - our family with her and my daughter.

Seems like a delicate balance.

No clue how to do the "reconcile dance" other than to say, "It was my fault, and it won't happen again". But it seems that puts me in a bad position from the start.

What words should I say... .how should I act?

Thanks... .

I suggest you read through the tools here on the site, particularly those about validation, avoiding circular arguments, boundaries, and using SET. You may also want to buy and read "Stop Walking on Eggshells."

The bottom line is this:

1. You can't control or take responsibility for her feelings. You can't "fix" them for her with your actions or words.

2. You should not give up things that are important to you in order to try to appease her. Don't make promises like never going to the US again or never seeing your other daughters again. Do not sacrifice your identity for this relationship. You will end up back in this same place, but having done serious damage to your life.

3. You can try to validate her feelings, be supportive of her pain and insecurity, and be less reactive, without validating her demands. It's an important distinction.

4. She is likely to need significant therapy and a recognition of her own problems before you see any real change in this relationship. But validation (on your part) may help lower the level of conflict somewhat.

5. None of this provides any guarantee. The odds are not in your favor. You may be painted so black at this point that there is no possible reconciliation.

Good luck!

I'd try to reconcile on more-or-less the same basis you want to be in a relationship with her, if that makes sense.

I wouldn't apologize for behavior that you did which wasn't wrong. I'm guessing where you are coming from, but this is the sort of position I'd hope to see a parent take:

"I love my children, and will never shut them out or abandon them. That includes our daughter, and includes my children from my prior marriage."

You can validate that she feels jealous and afraid when you go to visit your other children. That you don't want her to feel bad, and you are really sorry she was hurt, but that you won't give up your children for anybody.

I'm not a parent, but I do know quite a few women who are parents and are dating or in new relationships. I've heard several of them say very clearly something to the effect of "My children come first." With the very clear implication that a guy who couldn't accept that wasn't going to get anywhere in a relationship with her. And a guy who pressured her NOT to see her children could start walking. The F*** away from her and keep going. NOW. I've not heard guys say this as often or as clearly.

Going to visit your children isn't something to apologize for.

Seeing your children works better if you are civil, even friendly with your exwife. It doesn't justify anything more. I'm betting that there is a good reason she is an ex, and you aren't trying to reconcile or anything.

I'd be very clear with her that you have no interest in anything with your exwife besides the minimum to grease the wheels to see your children.

This is going to come up again if you reconcile without shutting your other children out of your life. Don't make promises you don't want to keep.

If your girlfriend is a decent human being, once she comes down from a dysregulated rage, she will respect you for being loyal to your children. If she can't, this tells you something important about her.

"It was my fault, and it won't happen again"

Here is the problem with doing this.  I'm a military guy, so tactics and strategy are bigtime different.

What is said above might be "tactically" smart to diffuse a situation... .it may appear to work.

In actuality, it will make the "strategy" of winning the war very difficult. 

Switch gears:

Lots of people understand the phrase "short term gain, long term pain".  If the strategy/tactics example doesn't work for you... perhaps this will.

It is critical that you "follow the rules" and let her solve her own emotional issues   Even when she solves them very badly.

The reality of what we are teaching, is for you to speak and act in a way to give you the best chance possible to "be heard"... .to cut through the FOG and crazyness.  There will be times it doesn't work.  Over time that will become less and less, but untreated, there will always be a significant level of weirdness.

quick example from my world:  You would think that having a dog NOT pee and poop in the house is a fairly easy thing to accomplish and a goal everyone could agree on.  Toss in BPDish stuff... .and my wife and I had an interesting discussion today.

She blamed, insinuated... .  I kept is simple... .a dog out of the kennel is attached to a leash that is attached to a person.  End of story.  I also know it won't fix the issue with the dog, but it will get better.

FF

Not sure I understand that statement, but I was thinking of getting an apartment back in Germany next week, and seeing if she would be open to "see me" a little bit to "rebuild our relationship".  In other words, be around the area, be helpful to her, helpful with my daughter, take good care of her financially and start to rebuild her trust that I will be around.  And, of course, try to "date" her again: Take her out, try to rekindle the feelings we had before and move forward with a better relationship.

This is my plan. I know I'm fighting an uphill battle because I'm sure she smeared me to her friends, family and (obviously) new counselor. But who knows. Maybe it is possible to reconcile.  I have no idea. Again: this feels like a final discard to me.

She is really digging her heels in this time.

I won't push to come back to our apartment. I'll just lay back and start living my own life, not pushing her to move back in, etc., we can reconcile and get to counseling together.

Maybe this extra "space" will depressurize things for her.  I actually told her about this plan the other night and she said, "Yeah, right. Call me if you ever come back to Berlin".  As if she didn't think that would ever happen.

Maybe if I just DO it, she'll see my actions and we will be a couple - and family - again.

Does this sound like a good plan? Is here a better way to reconcile?


This is excellent.


I've told her this in the past. She has said she understands, then she gets bent out of shape when I do visit them.


But Imcan apologize that it hurts her.


I spoke to my older children and they said they would rather come visit me in Germany during the summers.  This was in my official divorce decree three years ago, but for some reason they have never come to visit me (excuses: grandfather was sick, had summer school, no money to update passports, etc.)

This is one of the reasons my GF is so pissed that I go visit them. Or at least that's her "rational" reason she's pissed. She says it's their responsibility and that because they won't come visit me, it takes me away from her. Either way, I need to see my older kids. I waited two years for them to come see me. Finally, I hopped on a plane and that is when the trouble started with my GF with me "leaving".


She really resists me on this point. She gives lip service to me going to visit my kids, but her actions speak otherwise. She punishes me every time I go. This is why I thought it would be a good idea to stay in Germany five years minimum for stability and have my kids come visit me. This could be much more workable maybe.

Thanks... .

Gotcha.


How do you mean "follow the rules"? Do you mean with the validation, etc. skills and not get sucked into her issues and not react? Just sort of sit on the sidelines and observe?

Thanks... .

*mod*

This thread has been locked due to the thread reaching its post limit.  Please see the continuation of the discussing here: Part 2 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=302516.msg12825763#msg12825763)