BPDFamily.com

I feel so good here talking with and to you people. To share our experiences makes me feel normal.

Last night, when I tried to talk to her about my work Xmas party, which is today, she starts one of her rants about it. Oh you didn't really even ask me to go she says.

I said, well I tried 8 days ago, but you got upset because my ex wife knew about the party before you did, since I asked her if she would pick up our sons a day early for Xmas break. The upset about that led to 4 days are arguing, because of course she could not see the reason I waited to mention it, ie, I wanted to have the kids covered first, otherwise, I couldn't go, and hence, she couldn't go.

So last night, I finally just said, you know what? I don't want to go, so I am not going to go. I will just go Xmas shopping for my sons. So then she got mad because I was omitting her from that. I said, so you can't give me any grace about the party, you made it so bad I decided not to go, which is the 3rd year in a row I haven't gone, but you just think oh, we will do something else together?

So then she says, how long is my punishment? I said its not punishment. If you can't go to this party, and I decide to do something else, how are you being punished?

She says what about thursday? I said I have to go out to my rental house to meet the sheriff to put the tenant out, if he is still there. I have no idea if he is or not.

What about friday? Friday I have an epidural, and she is supposed to drive me. I said I am going without you. She says you can't, you need someone to drive you home. I said, I will call UBER then. Or I will just cancel the whole thing. She says, you are putting your health at risk. I said I didn't care anymore. Nothing I do is ever good enough.

I said I will just get up friday morning and go deer hunting. That will help my emotional health. I have two kinds of health, physical and emotional. Right now the emotional is more important.

And then bright and early this morning the phone calls start. She is more interested in fighting. All this background noise at her house, if I do that, its a fight.

I never do.

So at what point can I check out for my emotional health, my wellbeing, and it not be punishing her? This frustrates me to death. And when I get this way, I don't care about anything.

It is fine to disengage from her to get your own space for a while. But making her the reason to forgo something - is reacting to her and feeling victimized. This puts you on the drama triangle. From my own experience, I think the pw BPD claims victim position. There can only be one victim. So feeling like a victim starts the drama- moving you to either persecutor ( you are punishing her) or rescuer ( you need to fix this somehow).

She's in victim position- "You didn't tell me about the Christmas Party" and your response " Well I just won't go because of you being mad at me- this is the third time I missed it because of you" is also feeling like a victim.

The payoff for "Victim" is not being accountable for one's decisions, which can appeal to someone with BPD. An argument between two "victims " could be long and circular. One of you has to step out of victim position - and off the other two roles as well to stop the drama and waiting for her to do it is not effective. You need to do it. Not being in victim mode does not deny her behavior. It means you are not adding fuel to the drama.

While we may be thinking of the things that were said, the last time the pw BPD was angry- often for them, it is over and gone. I compare this to a kid with a belly ache from something he ate. The kid throws up - then he feels better, he is off playing, not thinking about it. She was upset, got it out- and it is over. It is harder for us to let go of what has been said and done.

I could highlight your conversation to show this:

Last night, when I tried to talk to her about my work Xmas party, which is today, she starts one of her rants about it. Oh you didn't really even ask me to go she says. (Victim- you did this to me)

I said, well I tried 8 days ago, but you got upset ( I tried but you did this- victim)because my ex wife knew about the party before you did, since I asked her if she would pick up our sons a day early for Xmas break. JADEThe upset about that led to 4 days are arguing, because of course she could not see the reason I waited to mention it, ie, I wanted to have the kids covered first, otherwise, I couldn't go, and hence, she couldn't go.

So last night, I finally just said, you know what? I don't want to go, so I am not going to go. ) (Victim- seen as persecutor - now we can't go)I will just go Xmas shopping for my sons. So then she got mad because I was omitting her from that. I said, so you can't give me any grace about the party, you made it so bad I decided not to go, which is the 3rd year in a row I haven't gone, but you just think oh, we will do something else together? (VICTIM)

So then she says, how long is my punishment? I said its not punishment. If you can't go to this party, and I decide to do something else, how are you being punished?

She says what about thursday? I said I have to go out to my rental house to meet the sheriff to put the tenant out, if he is still there. I have no idea if he is or not.

So to continue this- your part is to decide what YOU want to do without blame and take responsibility for your decisions.

Do you want to go to the Christmas party? Just not going because of what she said is denying yourself and blaming her. You can go to the party. If she doesn't want to go- you can decide to go without her, or not go. But whatever you decide - you are responsible for your decision. She may get angry if you go without her, but that is her decision. This is the situation with which you make your choices, but being responsible for your choices - and not blaming her- takes you out of victim mode.

As to the other stuff- your doctor appt- that has nothing to do with the party. Adding more stuff in the argument is "kitchen sinking" ( everything but the kitchen sink in an argument) and that adds fuel to the drama. It does take away her chance to help you- so it is a bit punitive in that sense.

Then the deer hunting ( more kitchen sinking) followed by " can't I have a moment to myself?" is also in victim mode. She won't let me have a moment to myself.


The direct approach- any of these
I would like to go to my office party- would you like to go with me?
I would like to go to my office party alone this year

And separate from the party:
Are you able to drive to the appointment? I would appreciate you being there.
or thank you for offering to drive, but I will take a cab.

I want to go deer hunting on Friday.

Being direct may feel risky, she may react at first, but it is a step out of the drama.

I have had it with these cyclical never ending rows.  I am currently in one right now because I said she couldn't go to a (BOYS ONLY) party to 'wet the baby's head' for one of my close friends.  There are no partners/women going.  Now the row is in its second day and I am having texts at 2 minute intervals full of rage while I'm in work.  It's as if they feel everyone is conspiring against them even their own family.  If she goes out with the girls I wouldn't even want to go, I'd say 'great have a nice evening and if i'm still up ill see you later'. Bang end of story. It's so basic.

It seems basic for us, but when one is interpreting things from victim perspective, that alters the perception.

Things happen in relationships- there are conflicts, situations where one is disappointed- like not being able to attend a party, or the loved one having to break a date - for a change of plans. When someone has object consistency- "he loved me yesterday, so he loves me today too" and can manage emotions " well I am disappointed I can't go with him, but I can handle that". then, the incident is managed.

But taking victim position means adding meaning to what happened, and that meaning may not even be true. But it feels true, and it feels hurtful, and so the pw BPD reacts by defending themselves and acting out.

Then - we the non- if we make meaning out of that - react to it personally- then we feel hurt and react as well by defending ourselves. And then the conversation goes round and round on the drama triangle- each person looking at the other to "understand " them ( validate) and rescue them off the triangle by admitting they were wrong, or showing some compassion for the other person's position. Two people who have their feelings hurt are not likely to do that.

The lessons here on validation are not because we are all about the person with BPD. They are designed to break out of the circular arguments and drama triangle.

What is hard to admit is that nons and pw BPD both share similar dysfunctional ways of relating to others, and I think the drama triangle is one of them. I think- from my own experience- they take victim role and the non takes rescuer. When the non feels things are unfair or hurtful and feel like a victim, then there is drama. But to me, it is all drama- no matter what role one takes. If we want to make some changes, we need to learn to relate differently.

Yes I got blown up this AM too. She says I don't want to fight... .really, then why call me at 630AM? I won't see my kids for 12 days, and this is the last few minutes I have with them before they leave for the bus stop. Thanks for intruding. Thanks for putting my children first.

This is what goes through my head. The above.

And God forbid I don't answer her phone call, I can't even poop in peace. I finally just said can I not take a  GD dump and it be ok to not answer the phone? So anytime LJ says GD, he's defcon 5. It slips out to, my practice is not to talk like that. I heard it all the time from my parents, and I hate it. I hate saying it, and I hate myself when I say it.

And her logic is mystifying. Oh not going to the party, but we can do something else tonight instead. Really, so the party notice wasn't sufficient, but since i cancelled that, now short notice is fine for something else? #WINNER!

I said I will just xmas shop for the kids. Oh so I am cutting her out of that too. Why yes, because after all, I don't need your sideways look of disdain and negative opinions about what i want to buy them. But then that makes me LJ party of 1.

There is no winning, there is no fairness, there is no peace, no logic, no nothing. Its pure dysfunction.

I reminded her this AM, in a loud and stern voice that I had said 5 times that I needed to get off the phone and get ready for work. I might as well have been talking to the wall in my house. Same when I get to work, hey I need to get off the phone, I have to work.

Hey I need to eat, its 9pm and I haven't eaten anything all day. What does BPD girl do, keep right on talking.

Sorry I am ranting. I am pissed right now... .and when I get like this I tend to be self destructive. I just want peace. I should have brought my AR!5 to work and gone to the range at lunch. That would have made me feel better. I might run get a 30 minute massage.

I even told her this AM that all I wanted for Xmas was a argument free December.

I asked her what was my punishment? I get a week of peace and then what?

I told her she was a child. I was really mad. I said you demand instant gratification. I must answer the  phone every time you call me, there is not a single valid reason that I cannot answer the phone for you. Nothing. I could be knocked out on an operating table, just fresh in from a wreck, hanging onto life by a thread, and nope, I am not answering to hurt her.

UGH!

Lockjaw,

While I understand this truly- ( I have a BPD mother who is more affected than your GF ), your posts sound like you are a victim of her actions on you. While her behavior is certainly unpleasant, you only have your choices. One is to continue to feel as if she is just mean and unfair to you. The other is to try to take a different perspective and change the interactions. The drama triangle is a strong and familiar pattern. 

You have choices here. Turn off the ringer, don't answer your phone at 6 AM. Your rule you must answer the phone- you don't have to answer it. That rule is " I have to answer it to try to keep her happy" but that is determining her mood.

She may be taking victim perspective, but if you do this as well, there doesn't seem to be a solution. A solution is to make your choices, but to do that you also have to accept that she gets to choose her behavior too.

I know what you are saying, and I hear you, I really do. I can't change her, only me.

All my life all I have wanted out of a GF or wife is to accept me for who I am and to appreciate me for who I am, not what I can do.


It is so frustrating. I just be quiet. I don't say much when things are good. Don't want to rock the boat. I live life in fear of the next outburst.

Wish it would stop. I really do... .

It stops when you stop fearing her outbursts. Really.

I know this sounds insurmountable. These kinds of thing are very scary to me. I grew up with them. My H didn't have the kinds of outbursts my mother has, but he could snap into anger and say cruel things- seemingly out of the blue. When I was able to be less reactive, or fearful, and listen to the accusations- they were often something he made up about me- and from victim perspective, and black and white thinking.

These things were scary and I would jump through hoops to fix the situation. But the situation was not fixable. No amount of effort into doing things for him could change this perception- and no matter how much I tried- there would be a situation for something like this to happen. I would do something- not on purpose- but something- fall asleep early, not put enough effort into something (in his mind) or just anything could be turned into a "rejection".

But his premise for "my rejecting him" was not based on reality. It was in his own mind- and I can't fix that, so I stopped trying. My actions could not change his thinking. So, the best I could do is base them on me. I wouldn't do something hurtful on purpose, I would just treat him and others kindly- according to my ethics, but that also had to include myself.

The outbursts were not a physical threat to me. So I had to be able to handle my own fear when others were angry at me ( not just my H but anyone. ). When I stopped being scared of them, they lost their power- I didn't reinforce them by trying to fix them.  I too didn't go places, avoided doing things- so as not to upset my H, but then, I started to- and yes, there were outbursts, and they were scary, but not being scared feels so much better.

The anger and outbursts still occur, but we can learn not to throw fuel into them by reacting with our own statements. Study the drama triangle. Every time one takes one perspective- either victim, rescuer, or persecutor- one participates on the triangle- which then goes round and round and round.

If I approached my H from any kind of victim stance- it seemed to become a biggest victim contest.
"I didn't do this because of you" or "you got into a fight about this" was a set up for the circular argument to nowhere. You may feel this way- and it may make sense that you do- but approaching a discussion from this perspective didn't work for me. It didn't solve anything.

Acting from a place of authenticity worked better.
"I would like to attend the Christmas party. Would you like to go with me?". If the answer is a bunch of blah blah blah, then say. "I understand, and will miss your company" and then go to the party. She may pitch a fit, but will also learn that this doesn't work either if you don't fear it.

It's good that you have an outlet ( deer hunting)- a way to take care of yourself. You sound like a considerate guy- careful about being there for your dates with her- but also be considerate to yourself and don't give this up.

Lockjaw and Notwendy - I really appreciate the dialogue - I can see my past interactions unfolding in what I am reading and I can see where I could have improved being discussed.

For me not fearing the blowup is the hard part but is also the key part.  I am learning that being "mindful" when I see something brewing and then during the outburst is helpful in keeping me from participating and / or feeling victimized.  I think she wants to see a reaction out of me so it frustrates her to a degree but if there is less fuel to burn, the fire isn't as big (yet).

For me its a learning process and I appreciate your candid comments.

thanks!

 

I remember that kind of fear. And I remember how badly my life was when I let the fear run my life. One thing that really helped me was to calmly think about what I was afraid of. For example... .

You are afraid of the next outburst.

Guess what. It isn't a question of if it will happen. It is only a question of when it will happen.

Nothing you do can prevent these outbursts. Stop thinking that if you do "the right thing" you will stop them.

Also think about how many you've lived through. Sure they are horrible. But you are still standing. You survived every one of them to date. You will survive the next one.

The other thing is to remember what you can do. While you can't stop the outbursts, you can leave when they start. You can hang up the phone, or not answer it, or even block her number.

As you get better at protecting yourself from them, you will start to trust yourself more, and not be so afraid. When I stopped acting based on my fear, I found that I liked who I was a whole lot more. I bet you will too.

i was talking to her today, actually yelling some of the time. She likes to use these outlandish examples of something like say I banged 10 guys last night... .you know?

She is not that way, which seems odd that she says them.

Anyway, so I was explaining to her how she defends everything. As soon as there is any focus on her, what she did, her behavior, etc, she justifies it. There is always a reason. So I said to her, I want to give you an example. Tonight you go out and bang some guy, and I find out about it and confront you. I said, you will justify why it was ok. You will find some reason, or will talk about something I did, anything but the fact you banged some guy last night and I caught you.

She doesn't see it. She did it with every single thing I brought up.

So I finally said to her, I want a list of things you think you need to have input on. Actually, I want two lists, things you have input on, and things you don't. Then I want to see it. I may go ask someone if they think the things on your list are appropriate or not. I may agree with them, or not.

She of course didn't want to do that. I said, I want a list, and I am not going to be black and white. If something comes up that isn't on the list, but its in same context, I will agree its ok.

She still doesn't want to. I said, I want a list. I said, I will pin you down, which is why you don't want to do it. You do not want me to have any thing to go by. I said how can I tell if its right or wrong when I don't know the expectation? Am I supposed to operate in this whole "thing" of you decide when its appropriate and I have no say at all?

I told her you never straight up just answer me. If I ask you if you are being a B? you don't say, you change the subject. If you ask me if I am being an A hole, what do I say? Yep! I own it. You do not.

What she wants is a clean slate every time. Doesn't want to hear she was wrong, or validate how i feel. It is all about her. I said as much too. Clean slate, nothing on her record. Like I am God and can forget.

She said again, she wants her "punishment" to fit her crime. I said, so if you have 100 shoplifting convictions, and you get caught for stealing a pack of gum and judge gives you one year, the punishment doesn't fit your crime of stealing a pack of gum, it fits your repeat offender status of 100 convictions. Of course logic was totally lost on her.

It's automatic. If she does something wrong, justify, rationalize, and change the subject. Every time. Every time... .

Never an I see your point. Never and I hear you. I said you never validate what I say. She says she doesn't need it. I said, I do, and its part of being a good listener. If you want me to listen to you, then you have to listen to me too.

I think she likes to argue. I really do. I think its her comfort zone.

lockjaw, what you are doing isn't working.

How long have you been trying it and has it ever worked?

I'd like to suggest you try something different. Try to just zip your mouth shut if you cannot say anything to her which is in the category we call JADEing. Don't Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain.

Any time you do any of these things, they are invalidating, And since she has BPD, she's horribly sensitive to invalidation, and she blows up, and you just have a fight that keeps on going.

Let me list a few of the things you mentioned in the last post which were JADEing, and which set her off further. You did it a dozen times. Try to watch yourself, and try to just not say anything at those times.

NOTE: I know she does it to you all the time. That's not the point. She's the one with a disorder. If you are going to have a successful relationship with her, you have to be better than she is, or it won't work.