BPDFamily.com

Hello all. If you read my other posts you know that my wife moved out a few weeks ago.

She has stopped wearing her ring. Won't text me sweet things/hearts/ I love you. Acts very distant and not loving at all. She is the one that said that even though we are living apart, she still wanted to work on the relationship.

Tonight we were supposed to get together to watch a movie at her place. We both have been fixing our respective places up and she insisted to show me her daughter's room and how "nice it was". This upset me because when they lived with me her daughter lived like a pig at my house, took no pride in keeping her room nice at all and my wife didn't have any interest in making her. She began to tell me how her daughter really wants to keep her room clean and how she did the dishes this morning ( the kid never lifted a finger when they lived with me). So it is really insulting to me. I was thinking that I really didn't want to see her room and said " do I have to"? I honestly don't care about the kids room. She said "well then you only know half of me". HUH? I began to question her ( wrong move I know) asking "what? Why is your daughter's room half of you". It then deteriorated from there. No jading on my part. Just a full on argument with her typically hearing NOTHING of what I was feeling. Just all about her as usual.

She told me to go home. So I did but before I left I told her that her actions don't seem like she wants to work on anything at all. Her actions seem like she wants a divorce. She told me to go ahead and file for divorce if I don't want to give her more time to "get over" her upset at me for her snooping into my computer and reading an email to a friend where it was like a "tell all" about the horrors of our relationship. And then the kicker... .she said " I wanted to go to counseling with you so that I could finally understand where you are coming from because I don't see your point with anything". HUH? She had two and a half fu***%in years to do that.

Is she just playing me to stall for more time to get her ducks in order for a divorce ( what ducks I don't know) or is it the push/pull or punishment? I just don't get it.

Your description of her saying one thing and doing another really struck me. Ex has done the same thing to me. He would say that he wanted to work on us yet would go find other women and then tell me about it. He would tell me that he wanted to work on us while also telling me that it was okay for him to date since we were separated. He strung me along for three years before I kicked him out. It was the same story over and over. He would tell me that he wanted to work on us.

His actions completely contradicted that. At one point, he used his 12 step program as an excuse to put me off. He told me stuff like, "The recommendation is to wait a year before making any kind of decisions." I absolutely loved <sarcasm> that he would tell me stuff like, "My program says to focus on myself and not worry about our marriage. My program says that I have to focus on myself and heal myself and then everything will fall into place." He has been out of the house for over 9 months. He still doesn't have a job. He is still living rent free with a registered sex offender. And he is still doing the same things: playing video games, "looking" for a job, going to church, and looking for women (while completely denying that he is doing it and getting offended that I would say or think such things).

I don't think ex had a plan in mind. I think he was putting me off so he didn't have to make any changes and could avoid making any decisions or do any real work to improve our relationship or our family life. He is impulsive and tends to live in the moment. It is like he forgets our history and forgets that I have any reason to be upset or hurt.

I do have a question for you since you are on the detaching board. Are you trying to detach or do you want to reconcile? It sounds like you have one foot in the door and one foot out. I think it is okay to be in that place.  I was there for a long, long time. It took me a long time to get to a place where I could say, "I am done." and really mean it. Until I got to the point where I was completely done, my behavior was just as confusing as his was. I suspect some of my behavior still confuses ex because I still try to be respectful towards him. When I was deciding whether to have him hang out with the kids on Christmas day or Christmas Eve, I chose to invite him on Christmas Eve because I knew that Christmas Eve was the big day in his family growing up. I didn't make choices just to punish him. I made choices that took him into consideration. In my opinion, that is the right thing to do no matter how mad I am at him.

It sounds like both of you are sending each other mixed signals. If you are wanting to be in a relationship with somebody, you make a choice to listen to them even if it is something that is of no interest to you. I am thinking about you telling her that you don't want to hear about her daughter's room. That is not something you would say to somebody if you are trying to work on the relationship. It is dismissive and invalidating.

I also wanted to make a comment about the wedding ring. I took my wedding ring off well before ex did. He and I went back and forth about the wearing of our rings. I didn't understand why he was so hell bent on wearing his. To me, him wearing his ring felt like he was perpetuating some kind of lie. He would proudly wear his ring while not working on our relationship and while chatting up other women. I couldn't wear my ring because it was a reminder of our marriage. It was so hard for me to wear it without looking at it and crying. Wearing it made it really difficult for me to detach. If the two of you are planning to divorce and want to detach, then taking it off makes sense. However, if she is saying that she wants to work on things and wants to be married, then I can see how it would be painful if she had it off. I played the on and off game with my wedding ring. When he would be gung ho about working on things, I would put it back on. I don't remember how long that push/pull scenario lasted. At some point, I said forget it and refused to put it back on.

Seems like you're not ready to detach.  If you accept to keep in contact with her, well you have to accept her irrational and selfish behaviour. Expect more hurt.

Push Pull intermittent renforcement, anything to keep you attached and willing to ride the roller coaster. Soon she will be introducing a replacement.  You will be expected to accept this and wait your turn to be with her.

Hey Michel, 

If you stand back, and look how you are feeling. Your loved one will feed off that.
I'm going to say that what struck me was the "I don't care about the kids room".

You understand that kid is a passenger and has little control.  Her room in this new place is probably something SHE is looking forward to away from the conflict of her mom, and yes you.   And the room might be something that your wife is proud of in regards to her daughter, that she is making happen for her.

Remember that a lot of the conflict and issues we get faced with, aren't actually about us.  We HAVE to accept that in order to work forwards. You simply aren't always going to have YOUR feelings felt and understood. She is asking you for space.

You need that space too.  You are ok, Michel.  Take your time, and see that you can't get to any particular place right now. 

She behaved consistently with trying to work on your relationship. In this story, you did not. Your resentment of how things went in the past (her daughter's messiness and unhelpfulness) is blinding you to the efforts she was reporting on both their part to change something that bothered you. Her communication was good--she told you this was an important part of her that she wants you to see, and she's saying she wants to understand better (in counseling ) where you are coming from. Are you so resentful of the past that you can't take yes for an answer? That may be understandable, but then it is you who are sending mixed (at best) signals.

It may be that this is because there is too much water under the bridge or you feel certain at a gut level that this will fail and you just can't extent her the benefit of the doubt. That may be well-founded--but then you need to be honest with her and yourself that it is you making that decision not to really try any more. At one point I realized my ex was saying everything I could have wanted. I still had apprehension but at that point I was the barrier, not him. (When I decide to take him at face value he proved unable to show up as he'd represented, so my gut probably knew what it was doing! But there was nothing wrong with the effort he suggested we make; the problem was that he couldn't actually make it, if that makes sense.)

Seems like you need to decide if you just can't really participate with her, listen to her, allow for the possibility of her change and growth. If so, even if there are very good reasons for that stance, you really have no business "trying."

Thank you for all your comments. I really appreciate the feedback because there are times when I have to look at "the man in the mirror" and you guys helped me get there.

Yes. It was unfair that I reacted like that to seeing the kid's room. Yes there is TONS of resentment. And I let it get the best of me. Instead of sucking it up and being polite and seeing the room, I said what I said based on that resentment. I have no genuine interest in seeing the kid's room but it wasn't about the kid really. It was about my wife showing me that she did something that she was proud of. You are all right in your comments there.

So I sent her a text this morning apologizing. She has not responded. I don't know if she will. I guess I expect that at anytime she will just "ghost me". Honestly, I don't trust anything about her. I cannot predict her at all. Except that she will continue to exhibit behaviors of BPD.

I think I am not ready to detach but yes it seems like I have one foot in and one foot out which is where both of us are. She keeps edging her foot further out by not wearing her ring, not texting me sweet things, not saying I love you as much ( sometimes she does). Yet it still feels like punishment. I am so conditioned to being punished by her.

PATIENTANDCLEAR... .you are right. Her communication was good. Mine sucked. And I do feel at a gut level this will fail.

YNWA... .I hear ya. The kid is a passenger but was given total control over the house and her actions by her mother. I felt like she ran the show and have a lot of resentment for that. Again, it is not "her" as much is it is her mother but she is 13 now and knows what she is doing.

RAYBAN... .check. If I continue with her then yes I have to accept the BPD behaviors.

VORTEX... .I am on the detaching board because I sometimes I want to detach. I should probably post on conflicted. The only thing I know is that I am not going to live with them anytime soon. LAT (living apart together) is an interesting concept but I don't know if that is where we are now. IT is all up in the air and could change at any moment. I think we are perhaps sending each other mixed signals. I am getting myself back pretty rapidly. Things are becoming more clear. For the first time I am starting to feel pretty indignant that I do not deserve this kind of relationship and that she is not worthy of ME. Heretofore I would beg and plead and humiliate myself trying to save "us". The wedding ring thing is, I guess, what bothers me the most. It just seems to symbolic to me, actually the most symbolic thing. Sounds like you went through it too Vortex but in the reverse. Scoundrel still wearing his band while hunting for other women!

That was an epic fail for us. I couldn't detach as long as he was living here.


It is really difficult to detach when things are up in the air like that. I spent three or four years living like that. It took its toll on both of us. It seemed like neither one of us could get on the same page at the same time. It was a horrible mess of push/pull from both of us. Both of us were sending each other mixed signals. You wanting her to wear her ring and continue to send you sweet texts is NOT something to ask of somebody when you are trying to detach from them. I know what it is like to want to detach and be done while at the same time wanting them to do something/anything to show that they are really invested in making things work with you.


I did the same thing. I did whatever I could to try to save our marriage and keep our family in tact. In the end, I had to make up my mind that I was done and stick to it. I haven't started any legal proceedings yet. That is the next step. For now, I am proud of myself for getting to the point where I am done. I am even doing a better job being done in my words and my actions. He and I still provoke each other from time to time. I still don't understand why he isn't more invested in the kids. He and I were together for 18 years. It seems so bizarre that he could walk away from all of it without putting forth more effort.

Hi folks. Why did I do this to myself?

My uBPDw and I have been on decent terms since she moved out. Getting together a few times. Nothing heavy. Light conversation. For some reason today I had a phone conversation with her that spiraled out of control. I should have thought better of placing the call to begin with. I needed a "dose" of her today and had been weepy for the last couple of days.

In a nutshell it turned into a not so "mini" discussion about what we were going to address in therapy. Bad idea. The end result was her doing the classic BPD stuff, projection, gas lighting, you name it. Circular arguing. Misinterpretations. Pretty much a heavy dose of her best disordered thinking until I got to the point of tears... .mostly out of frustration. I yielded two things from the convo though. She absolutely positively will not take accountability (nothing is wrong with her) and that she wants to go to counseling to see if we can salvage our relationship and if not split. Okay. Hasn't worked for 2 1/2 years so I dunno about that. Then she added something quite out of character... ."we'll get through this, hand and hand together, no matter the outcome".

This conversation left me drained and a bit traumatized. It took me mostly all day to "recover" and I certainly wasn't my best at work.

Yet I am the one that did it. I called her. Didn't use the tools too well.

By the way I am posting on the detaching board because I think that is the way it is going.

I'll say what many have said before me... Cut yourself free from this person. People who truly love you don't behave this way. You'll never be able to avoid triggering something in her, regardless of how carefully you tread. It's never ending and it will go on until it kills you...

Run the other direction.

Hi michel71,

Yes, you do know better than to contact your ex, but it's fine, it's not the end of the world, just more confusion.

I loved this quote -- it reminds me of a car insurance commercial or something. :)


My uBPDexgf used to say stuff like this and it drove me nuts because it didn't make sense to me. Like, in the above instance, what if the outcome is you two being totally apart? How can you be hand in hand if you decide to split?

Anyway, I, too have learned a few times that I shouldn't have any contact with ex. It takes time. Hang in there.

Is that the way you want it to go?  This board is for members that are done and out.

Counseling with a pwBPD is tricky. If you want it to go well, you will need some coaching. If you don't want it to go well, why go?

Don't defeat yourself.  *)

Michael

Use this experience as more conformation as to why you can't have a healthy relationship with this person.  It happens. We succumb to the temptation of another ride on the roller coaster.  We know from past experience the damage that the ride will cause but we get on none the less. You have to ask yourself if you're willing to get back in line for another ride with the hope that it will be different next time.

Further contact with her will have her cause more emotional hurt and blame.  The intermittent re enforcement ie. The hand in hand comment will have hoping, but it's a setup.  If you're exposed to the blame and other bs for long enough you will end up believing that you are the faulty one. That includes going to counceling and having her work the councellor to help her make you feel as the defective one.

A lot of people with BPD don't do so well in counseling and we can get such an upper hand that it overwhelms the pwBPD and doesn't go well. But, in fairness, this is the detaching board, and if your detaching, I agree with Rayban  - why go to counseling?

  Michel71,
It's unfortunate to be in the position you are in right now. As others have suggested, maybe keeping away from her may do you some good, even if it's for a little while. Use that time to work on yourself and remember to keep reading the posts. I gained so much wisdom and understanding of self ultimately taking control of my emotions. If you must interact with her, remember not to JADE. Just like you, I may have reacted to her actions as opposed to responding. Every time I did this, I was left weak, helpless, miserable, you name it all. It will take time but practice makes perfect. The outcome you want/deserve is all dependent on you not her. Hope it gets well but keep posting. We are here for you, just like those who have been there for us when we have felt powerless

Skip I guess you are right. Maybe I have posted on the wrong Board in fairness to others that are DONE and OUT. So please feel free to move this post.

Even though I know that I know that I know... .that I'll be back on this Board some day.

I want to say goodbye to the hurt and pain. I want to say goodbye to the bad relationship. I want to say goodbye to the woman that constantly hurt me, unfortunately that is the woman that I also fell in love with and that I love still. If I could keep that part still I would. I have desperately been hoping that she would return. Lucky Jim said this was a fantasy. He is right. But that is my struggle.

Thank you all for your comments.

michel71,

You gave me some good advice and words earlier today on my dilemma as to whether to reach out to an ex from over 20 years and your words were spot on.  However, I read now your dilemma and see your pain and really feel for you.

I know where you are at.  I suggest you stop and take a deep breath here and really think long and hard about the advice which you have been receiving regarding continuing with the toxic relationship situation with the individual you have professed such an intense love for.  I can completely concur with your feelings.  I just placed it in a posting somewhere here a couple of days ago that a little more than a month ago, I sent an email to a person I met a little over a year ago whom I thought at this stage of my life, I had found the perfect match.  Everyone around me reveled in my joy and saw the excitement and change in my life.  Certain friends said in knowing me for 30 years they had never seen me so happy.

Initially, the experiences were magical!  An international trans-Atlantic relationship with someone else who was financially secure, extremely attractive, sexy, smart and exciting was all I could have hoped for.  It was all incredibly wonderful until there started to be unexplained 'cracks in the plaster.'  The red flags just started hitting me in the side of the head but I rationalized that there had to be something wrong with me.

I took me a while, but not very long, once the golden honeymoon phase was over and the nonsense began for me to realize that something was just not right.  I've dealt with a lot of people in my lifetime but never with a situation which was so full of mind games and all this from someone that I was so madly in love with.

Like you, I felt that I could not give this up, I loved this person too much and was willing to do anything and everything to make it work.  Maybe it's due to my age and experience but I realized to make my relationship work, I'd have to give up "me, myself, my person."  No relationship is worth that!  NONE!

You sound like you are really hooked on this person and that's OK.  I will always love the BPD person who I had to get away from but I am now coming to understand that the person I loved is really not there.  That is a difficult concept to grasp.  It defies common sense.  That person was just a façade of a person who came after me to seduce me and seek what they wanted from me when the opportunity presented itself.  You are dealing with the same situation I and many, many others who have posted here and others out there who are still trying to navigate their way through such a dilemma.  Five weeks ago I had never heard the term BPD or had any direct experience with mental health issues.  These people are ill.  What I have learned, the BPD condition is not curable, just maybe manageable but only with great effort on their part.  I've also learned that partners or those in failing or failed relationships are in no real position to help these people heal because they took us to their depths and we are the problem in their eyes.

You are brave to want to try to resolve the conflicts and try to restore a relationship but may I suggest you put your intense feelings about this person on a shelf for a moment and do some more research about BPD and it causes, and how significant it is to be managed before you decide to continue on.  That is apparently a very difficult and arduous road.  The amount of love and dedication you put forth in this relationship would be greatly appreciated by many others out there in the world.  Consider rethinking your position to continue the agony you are going through.  The sooner you realize the depths of where you are at, the sooner you can turn the corner and begin to heal.

I made a tough decision to end my relationship and 'escape' and maybe it was easier because I am older and have more relationship experience under my belt.  Maybe I'm more pragmatic due to my age and just not willing to put up with that level of BS from anyone on any terms.  Maybe it's because that once again in my life I decided to put myself out there with all that I have only to have my heart stomped on again but this time by someone who really was masked and only there to use me and either destroy me or eventually cast me aside.

You gave me words today which help me greatly.  I believe you are smart and intuitive and your reality is obscured by your blind love for this person.  Even that's OK.  But you need to see it for what it is in order that you don't lose yourself.  It's just important for you that you make the right decision for yourself.  Think about this, one way love does not make a relationship.  Keep posting and keep communicating.  There's some good free advice to be had on this website.  I know, it's help me immensely!  Hang in there!         

Germanic                  

Michel, I'm going to nudge you again.

You clearly want to learn how to detach.  Are you struggling with the idea that if you stop, she will disappear?  It's simply not going to happen.
Just stop contacting her.  You are conflicted. You do want to try to go forward with the relationship. But... .do you want to stop feeling like a doorknocker on Halloween?

Michel, until you get space from this, you will be stuck.  Understand that.  

 

Hello all. I was wondering if I could get some input on how to make the first session with a new therapist constructive.

As typical I get tongue-tied when trying to coherently capsulate my feelings about the relationship.

Do I pick about 5 major things that devastated me in the course of the relationship?

Do I use "buzz-words" for BPD (like being painted black, projection, gas lighting, etc. ) to imply that my spouse may have it? I am not going to say it outright.

She is going to be all over the place. I want to keep it structured and sometimes therapists just let people talk and talk. This is a new therapist and I don't know his style yet.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

If your wife doesn't believe she has BPD and/or hasn't chosen to get treatment for BPD, I recommend you keep such things from coming out of your mouth. (Many members have had bad experiences with telling their BPD spouse about BPD; very few have had positive results.)

Given that, I don't think that "hinting" is a much better idea; I wouldn't suggest that either.

I'd suggest that you follow the therapist's lead, whatever that may be... .while avoiding the above.

Did you or your wife push for therapy? Did you or she pick the therapist?

Also, what are you hoping for / expecting out of therapy? You might want to read about how therapy/treatment of BPD goes, to get your expectations into a realistic place--getting effective change will take a lot of time and effort, and many people find that couples therapy goes down one of two faster paths:

1. Your wife "snows" the therapist, and therapy rapidly all becomes about what you are doing wrong / what you can change, and most of the suggestions for you are ones that would work if your wife wasn't disordered, but aren't really workable with a pwBPD... .and it doesn't change much of anything.

2. The therapist figures out the toxic/messed up/abusive behavior patterns your wife has, and tries to address them--in effect calling her on it. And your wife paints the therapist black, and stops going.

I had a few sessions with my uBPDw. I think it will become clear to the therapist as the two of you discuss scenarios that occurred and reactions and things said/thought, feelings, etc. I wouldn't go out of my way to wave the BPD flag for him - it will show naturally. It did with my wife. I just remember saying a few times, "I understand how that makes you feel. But I have feelings too." It was all about her and that became increasingly obvious. Don't expect the therapist to acknowledge BPD right away either. #1 it will take some time for him to assess the dynamics, and #2 he may not want to throw that out there up front. I remember a subtle hint I got from the therapist after three sessions with my wife. I had found a free Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction course online and my wife and I were telling the therapist about it. She said, "Well that's wonderful and I'm glad you are finding it helpful. You might also want to try this book I have... ." (it was the Dialectical Behavioral Therapy workbook). Bingo!

With all that said, I have to say that the counseling did not help. My wife would come out the sessions misperceiving what the therapist said and we'd end up arguing about what she said (which was not at all what was said) and sometimes she'd be mad at me for "throwing her under the bus". Most importantly, I really felt like my wife needed serious therapy for her issues. The problem wasn't with our relationship, though the relationship truly suffered, it was the serious issues my wife was bringing into the relationship. Certainly, there were things that I could have done to keep peace in the home. But that would have involved A LOT of work and pretty much me devoting my life just to that. When you are in a relationship with a pwBPD, it is the very relationship that triggers them. I feel the work must be done when the person is not in a relationship.

I don't want to discourage you, as this is your choice. I respect you for trying. For me, I wanted to ensure I had done everything I could do so that when I left (though I hoped that I didn't have to) I would feel like I had tried my best. I do feel I have.

Grey Kitty... .thank you for your input. I always wanted to ask you about that picture of the cat with the apple helmet. So funny! Anyway, yes, it is a tough road and one that may lead nowhere fast but I basically am indulging my wife at this point. What do I hope to get out of it? I agreed to go because I needed a venue to discuss a separation agreement and I was hoping that after several sessions she might feel comfortable with the therapist and I could bring it up in a "safe" environment so to speak. This could also be wishful thinking that it will go well. I am not convinced at all that therapy will fix the relationship. Quite skeptical in fact but I am willing to give it a go for awhile. Her reasons for going to therapy is that she wants to finally understand where I am coming from. Nice huh? What the heck happened 3 years ago when I begged her to go to discuss our issues? NOTHING.

Me-Time... .like I said to Grey Kitty... .I am dubious but going with it. And I agree that the work should really be done on an individual counseling level which she has heretofore been resistant to. No I do not expect some miracle. Would I like greater understanding on both sides? Sure. Our relationship is transitioning. I want to protect myself legally.

The therapist asked us what our respective goals are with therapy. She said that she wants to finally try and understand me and she is not sure where the relationship is going to end up. I said that I wanted us to better communicate so that we can define our way forward whether that is together or apart.

I thought he was a skilled therapist. I liked his direct, no nonsense style. I am not sure if my wife likes him though and wants to see him again. She says that she has to think about it.

Michel71,

Therapy to get a "separation agreement"?  :)id I read that right?  Have you written that down or made that goal public?

If you have not made that public to T or to your pwBPD... .please keep this goal private

As far as how to be in therapy... .be yourself.  I am sure that all Ts know that people put on their "best behavior" for the first few sessions.

I DO like the thought of planning out goals... .what to definitely bring up and what to definitely stay away from.  Planning is important.

I would encourage you to play around with a "mission statement" for you... .and a suggested one for you guys as a couple.

such as

"I want to be here in T in order to understand things my SO has apparently been trying to communicate to me.  I want to better understand my role in the r/s and what choices I can make to have a healthier r/s"

for couple

"I want our r/s to more open and understanding.  That when there is unclear communication we demonstrate the value we place on each other by showing patience while mutual understanding is achieved."

Please don't use or try to parrot the above statements.  Get the gist of them and try to put them in your own words.  :)on't mention your SO individually.  Feel free to say "I want to try... xyz" and I would hope that "we" are abc.  

IF you have never been to T before or MC... .likely my statements will come off a bit too "polished".  

OK... .saving the best for last.  How to describe or explain BPDish stuff.

my favorite  "apparent unexplained irritability"... .be very tentative... .Focus on your "not understanding".  Allow other pathways... ."perhaps she was really excited and I misinterpreted"... .make sure that you end up any description with "I want to better understand... ."

Avoid asking "why"... .

Avoid saying "you"...

Clarity:  "You cussed me and said I had a third eye on Thursday morning at 830... I was devastated and had a bad day... "  (very bad... .it is an accusation)

"Last Thursday morning (insert name) was apparently irritated.  After some talking I was unable to better understand.  I was anxious for rest of day about whatever was going on in (insert name)'s life."

Critical point:  You own your emotions... .do not blame your emotions on others.  

I'll hush... .hope this helps.

FF

Please go to MC with a goal to "hear and understand"... .vice "argue and prove a point".  If you are interested in "being right"... .that doesn't bode well for a good outcome. 

Greykitty, those 2 steps nailed it. When we were discussing my lack of success with our last 2 times of couples counseling I talked about those 2 steps with her, leaving out the disorder part of course. She for once didn't have a comeback.

Formfiler... .excellent advice that I will heed. And no... .I did not "make public" my agenda for therapy. i.e. separation agreement. That will come about whether we miraculously can transform our relationship or not in that even if we were to still continue to see each other both of us (at this point) still want to live apart. She is enjoying her new space and I am reclaiming mine. The tension is off. We both feel at peace. The "separation agreement" is just that... .I am proposing an informal resolution to issues of community property, something legally binding however, but not a LEGAL SEPARATION (where the Courts would get involved). It could be thought of something more like a post nuptial agreement in essence. I have very definitive terms. My uBPDw went through a lot of my money and made financial promises and then retracted them on several occasions, so I don't want her to get more of it. If she does not agree I might as well file for divorce. Yes, skip the LEGAL SEPARATION... .only she would benefit from that.

I have a lot to lose financially and she has everything to gain by staying married to me. If she wants to stay married to me then she must sign the separation agreement. And those terms will stand if we were to start living together again or if we would divorce.

michel71, I'd suggest you back away from the question of legal separation vs. divorce for a bit--Make sure you know what your goals are before you make that kind of decision.

It sounds like you are living separately from your wife now, and that it is working better for both of you than living together did before.

So goal #1 sounds like maintaining that status quo.

It sounds like your wife's financial choices and decisions have harmed you in the past, and you are afraid they will continue to do so.

How about stating a positive goal for what you want in this regard?

Do you want to be financially independent from your wife?

Do you have an obligation to financially support her in some way, like a history of supporting her for years when she didn't work?

I recommend you sort these things out in your head before you do much more to act on it... .and I'd note that none of it sounds like a good subject to bring up in therapy, at least not at first.

Agreed Grey Kitty. I don't want her out of my life, just my financial life. No entitlement to pension, retirement savings nor any interest in my house. No spousal support. This is typically the subject matter of a prenup. Postnup works too. Separation agreement accomplishes the same thing.

But yeah, I am holding off a bit but I cannot hold off for long. The longer I wait, the more I have to lose financially.

And I am a lawyer so I understand risks and liability. And perhaps a little about the law too. :)

So is a large part of the therapy actually focused on your feelings and position that you have been taken advantage of financially?

I get it that you are a lawyer... .please don't underestimate the power of a pwBPD to put a blender in your brain... .

Use your knowledge as a lawyer to ask questions of YOUR lawyer that you have retained to protect your interests and advise you.  Be clear to him that you relationship is likely to compromise your judgement.

Same thinking that lots of doctors use to avoid treating their own family.

Get the strategy right.

1.  Get the post nup all ready to go.  Think it through... .spend time with it... .look at all angles.  Make sure if she says yes... .you are ready to sign... .ASAP!

2.  Then... .and only then... .do you breathe a word of this to your pwBPD.  Reasoning:  BPD is a disorder of the "moment".  So, if you catch her on a good day she may agree to this and another day she may tell you to stick it up your A$$ and post stuff about you on facebook.  

Certainly the need for her to be represented on "her side" for the post nup complicates this.

Note:  I've got several legal actions going on at the moment... .tons of fun.  Especially when my pwBPD is calling "the other side" and interfering.  My strategic plan is to hopefully wrap my legal stuff by summer... .and then present my wife with a post-nup.

I'll pass something along to you that may get a chuckle.  I have a meeting a while back with my lawyers... .of course they bring in the file that creates an ominous "thud" when put on the table.  On top of my file is a stick note that says ":)on't talk to wife about case... ."

Yeah... .I've had some interesting talks with my lawyers.

Sigh... .

FF

Formfiler... .thanks for the advice. Don't get me wrong, I know the power of my uBPDw. She is the most formidable opponent that I have ever encountered and I have dealt with many A$$HOLe lawyers in my time.
Yes I do have counsel and am depending heavily on that. I am not shortsighted ( at least I don't think I am) and know that I have to ask the right questions and get my ducks in order. Strategy is everything but like you said a BPD can throw you a curve ball. She can agree to do something and change her mind in an hour. Yes, she will unfortunately have to consult with an attorney of her own who will tell her to go for gold and not give up what she is "entitled" to. That is exactly where the rubber meets the road. If she stands by her promises ( she has made them previously) that she will just "walk away" (with nothing) then her character wins out over her BPD traits. And she has my respect back. IF she doesn't, its ON. The marriage is over and its war.

Please talk with your counsel about this plan.  At first glance, it appears that your plan could represent some black and white thinking.

If your goal is to "win"... .then it is likely that this thing will cause a blowup.  If your goal is to "cut a deal" that you can live with, then there is hope of getting a post nup.

You should have clearly defined non-negotiables... .but there needs to be several areas you can be flexible in.

Thoughts? 

FF

Hey michel71, I have to chuckle at your subject line, not at you, but for the predicament you find yourself in by going to see a T w/your uBPDw.  No need to say the dreaded initials, BPD.  If your T is good, he/she will pick up on it by him/herself.  In my case, I tried to express myself obliquely, through metaphors.  For example, I said that it feels like I am playing rock, paper, scissors in my interactions with my W and she always shoots scissors, so what's the point of shooting paper (which I viewed as comforting).  So, I said, I have to shoot scissors (hostile) or rock (unyielding).  I thought that made sense, but my W thought I was making a mockery of the counseling session.  Oh well, the T knew what I was talking about!

LuckyJim

Formfiler... .of course, you are right, I don't think I am going to get out of this one completely unscathed. I think I am going to have to pay her something to "buy my peace". I am prepared for the worse really. I don't think this is going to go smoothly. My uBPDw is very disordered and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. Honestly I feel her loathing me the more time passes. Distance makes the heart grow colder... .

Lucky Jim... .the predicament is there and ridiculous. My uBPDw is not going to magically conform to the therapist's direction, reel herself in. She might put on a temperate show for awhile but her true nature will come out. So, yeah I agree with you there. Others have told me the same including my own therapist.

I had a blow out with my wife tonight and I will post about that separately but basically this time living apart has been great for us an individuals, no better for us as a couple since her resentments are off the charts, I am more black than ever. I can't figure if she is just biding time, getting a few more favors out of me before she calls it quits or is trying to control me by things like not wearing her wedding bands anymore just to see me upset.

Nobody in "Michel's corner" wants me to stay in this relationship. The total consensus is divorce. Deep down I know that is best I just have to let go of the fantasy. My therapist says that the real her was the one that is disordered and at the beginning she was pretending to be somebody else. My therapist says that I have to accept that and take my power back but also that my uBPDw has a tremendous negative energy hold of me. That could be a subject for a different post as well.

Hello all. I am reaching out to anybody who would like to weigh in on the supernatural side of things. My therapist is legit, very learned and has all the right initials behind her name, but also does energy work and considers herself to be an intuitive.

In describing that my uBPDw has this "hold" on me, that as much as I know that the relationship is unhealthy I continue to feel drawn to her, that I have no desire to ever be with another woman because I feel that I am still "hers", my therapist suggested that my uBPDw has a very negative energy hold on me. She told me that I have to take back my energy.

We all have energy. Our bodies are made up of energy. We can say even off handedly that a person has "bad energy" but when you look at that in the context of BPD characteristics it is even more frightening. They exhibit behaviors and seem to have all the "tools" to really get inside of us. I find my uBPDw to be very dark. I do feel that she has manipulated my energy and sucked the good out of it for her benefit, replacing it with her bad energy if that makes any sense.

Any thoughts about the supernatural component of BPD or other cluster B disorders?

I find this to be very interesting.

The other day, I found myself wondering how I became so negative. My whole life, I have been a very positive person. I have had people tell me that I have a lot of positive energy and am very approachable.

In thinking about how I became so negative, I came to the conclusion that ex sucked the life out of me. It was like he took all of my positive energy for himself and left nothing for me. The longer he is out of the house, the more positive the energy in the house becomes. When he comes over to visit the kids, you can feel his negative energy and it feels like just his presence sucks the air out of the room.

The energy explanation makes a lot of sense and would explain why it becomes so difficult to let go and see things more clearly. Their negative energy pervades everything after a while.

I have seen the same sort of phenomena with a few other people that I know that have cluster B type stuff. There is just something about their aura that is so off putting and negative even when they are being nice.

Hello all. So much of the advice here is to "stay in reality"... .look at the the situation for what it is, not what you hoped it would be.

Why is it so hard? Why do we constantly want to hold onto hope of returning to white? Why do we sometimes forget that our loved one has BPD?

This is my biggest hurdle right now... .staying in reality. Is it just an issue of my heart not catching up with my head?

I feel a bit bad about this, but, I remind myself to quell all optimism in my marriage. 
It is what it is, and I can only change me.

You know, I hadn't thought of this topic as supernatural at all.  I have a long and deep affection for Asian philosophy and especially the martial arts.  I assume it to be true that we all have an energy, or Qi.  I sense my wife with a negative aura and know the room changes when she enters.  Conflict is quick and easy, health and strength go away.  Weird now that I'm typing it, but, I have explained it to myself that she has dark energy.  Hardly something I would put into a legal document or police report though.  :)
I do find it humorous when you describe pwBPD as an energy vampire. Now I have a new visual to brighten my day.  I wish there was an energy wooden-stake or holy water for such an event. 

I can relate to this- but an interesting idea is- is it them or us? Maybe both.


If we have poor boundaries, we can sense someone else's feelings and even not be able to tell which is them and which is us. Someone with stronger boundaries can be in the presence of someone who may be upset, but not be upset themselves.

Are we walking on eggshells- even not being conscious of it? That can be mentally and emotionally tiring.

Are we constantly having our boundaries tested- that is them- that can be emotionally tiring.

I do believe that some people take more emotional energy than others. I have at times noticed that I feel emotionally drained after being with some people. Drama and dysfunction is tiring. Dysfunctional people seem to like drama, and drama takes energy.

That said, I do believe that some people are draining, and even toxic to be around. I am however much better at being present if my H is upset without feeling affected by it. I hope that is better boundaries.

BPD being on a spectrum, would also put individuals on this spectrum of how emotionally draining they can be.

I also find everybody's post on this very interesting.  I have spoken may times on these boards I "discovered" BPD only recently despite a 35+ year marriage with my uBPDw.   I find that I have mirrored the the negativity.  Probably thinking that I could "get on her good side" (as weird as that sounds) by joining in.  Like vortex, I wonder when this happened, when it started.  Like others experience, conflict is quick, easy and often.    Notwendy has some good points and is where I am having an extremely hard time.  I have know this person for 40 years.  I know there are some good things, and when see those painful eyes seemingly begging me for help... .Is it possible that she is low enough on the BPD spectrum, that utilizing relatively new tools(boundaries) and research I have done, that there is a pathway to reconnect?(in some fashion) . 
so notwendy... .how long did id take take you to remain present and not be affected being upset when your BPD partner is upset.


 

I just wanted to clarify that I don't think my spouse is EVIL. Just some darkness probably linked to her inability to regulate her emotions and some very deep pain. The anger is dark too. But not in a satanic way or anything, just disordered.

I do not really have any sort of answer to your question because I to have to work so extra hard to try to hold onto whatever seems to resemble reality. I think that the longer we stay in a relationship like this the more likely we will lose our holds on what we know to be reality.
After taking on enough verbal abuse and word twisting I can be made to feel bad for having an opinion that differs or merely questions her on why she believes a certain way about something. For example right now she is angry with me for asking why she ate lunch so late? ultimately she explained it and I said I understand. But now your would have thought I was mean and cruel for yelling at her about her eating. Any outsider would think this an non issue. But I am mad to feel guilt for an attack that never took place. And I do. I feel like it attacked her and made her feel like she had to defend herself. But the reality is nothing could be further from the truth.

I do not believe in energy healing that comes from a source that is not God because I'm a Christian and that falls into occult type belief systems, BUT I do believe in things like demons and demonic influence. So I think this kind of falls into line with this topic.

The Bible has many examples of times when Jesus and his disciples used their God given authority over demons. The Bible says that as a Christian, we have the same authority as Jesus and can do many of the same things Jesus did. So, when my H begins to dysregulate, when he is in another room, I will pray and ask God to quiet the demons that are harassing him. Usually within a minute or two the intensity decreases.

Most recently though, we moved into a new house. I felt like God wanted me to go through each room of the house and bless it. I went through every room and closet and cubby hole. I prayed that God will remove any demonic influence and that the Holy Spirit would fill the house with peace and patience and kindness. Since that time my husband has not dysregulated once. He has started to, but then he regains his composure. I know a part of it is that I've been using the tools better, but I also think that God really is changing things. He has also received some big "aha" moments for himself. He is actually looking at his emotions and accepting responsibility for some of them. He is seeing how his emotions are affecting him and me negatively. Last week he even had a HUGE revelation and realized that he can be mad at people but not be mean! He seriously had no idea that being mad without mean was even possible! I truly believe these changes have a lot to do with the house blessing.

Interesting topic,

The vampire analogy really does fit the BPD model so well, I wonder if it came from observing such behaviour. They want virgins – meaning someone who isn’t aware of what they do. They want blood , symbolising emotion, because drinking emotion makes them stronger and us weaker. They fear the cross, could this mean that they believe they are superior to those around, but the church punctures that belief, competes with that belief. "Have no other idols."

So my question to you is, as someone with a PD believes they are superior to mortals, and the environment around them is there to serve them, how can they believe in a higher power ? I can see how they may feel spiritual, but not religious. My BPD mom and her mom, both laboured their religious devotion, but by age 12 I knew the bible better than they did. The religious tapes my BPD pretended to be a fan of are still unopened in their cellophane wrapper.

I can see how someone with BPD could be spiritual, they run off feelings more than logic. Also we children of a BPD are very sensitive to others feelings, so again, our heightened intuition helps with spirituality. But can someone with a PD be truly be religious – I would value your opinion.  :thought:

This is an excellent question!

I think they can be religious but NOT spiritual. In my opinion, being spiritual means that you internalize things and are able to discern what makes sense and what doesn't.

To be religious, all you need to do is take the rules prescribed by your religion and follow them. Ex is really good at following rules without internalizing them or understanding them. If he was truly internalizing the teachings of his church, there is no way in heck he could behave the way he does. He can spout off stuff about the role of a father and a husband. He can talk about the church's teachings all day long but it seems like he is unable to put it into action on a personal level.

Yikes!

I'd like to pose the reflective question of why some find solace in words like vampire and malignant when discussing our partners (ex-partners) or parents?

I've never read these words in discussions about pedophiles, or rapists, or even terrorists and dictators. Just BPD and NPD.

Why? Is it healthy? Are there any implications with respect to the emotional maturity and coping skills of the users?


I think what your therapists says makes sense. There is a self-destructive attraction that we can develop to a person and that they fulfill a need (I think this is the energy) that are willing to pay too much to hold onto. Breaking free from that, letting go of our unhealthy attraction, is sometimes described as getting our power back. Al-anon uses this terminology, too. It's about our self worth being tied up in the approval of another person.

Supernatural - of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially :  of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil?

Vampire -   the reanimated body of a dead person believed to come from the grave at night and suck the blood energy of persons asleep

I don't believe.

This thread is indeed provocative. I am glad that I made it. Personally speaking, I am a Christian so for me energy work and the positive supernatural always involves God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and angels at work. I don't reach out to the trees or mother earth. When I went around my house "cleansing" it I said prayers to God for strength and protection. I called upon my angels to watch over me. But that is just me and others on this Board are free to call upon whatever higher power they like or not.

I think it is about concentrating on the POSITIVE. Without a doubt, disordered by its very nature is not positive. I view it as negative because of the resulting pain but maybe there are those who might prefer to argue it is neutral.

Skip... ."vampire" and "malignant" and other words are used as metaphors. So many of us on here are hurting very badly so I think it is reasonable to assume that some of us will be angry as well. Yes some do feel victimized. We are where we find ourselves in this process. Healthy? Emotional maturity? Coping skills? Words of anger and condemnation are part of the process. Better out than in. If we keep our hard core dialog in then it turns to depression. I think it is cathartic. Is that the place that we want to stay? Ideally no.

The spiritual vs. religious question is interesting. My uBPDw is spiritual. Well, she calls herself that and does believe in God. She is limited however as her awareness of her actions are distorted. She honestly does not feel that she has mistreated me. Her reality is different. I don't know about other pwBPD. I suppose they could be one or the other or both ( spiritual/religious) but they have limited capacity to understand and translate deeper meanings and doctrine to themselves. That introspection, honest and real and based on a standard of a reasonable, prudent and sane person, will always be missing in a pwBPD.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to consider the supernatural realm in dealing with life. No matter how much we can intellectualize what it means to be BPD, to live with a BPD, to handle a BPD it still does not solve the heart problem and the way they have touched our souls in a very profound way.

When your therapists refers to getting your power back, he is telling you that she doesn't have power over you - you believe it - its not true. When you stop believing this, you will be empowered in your life.

He's talking about codependency in you. Not supernatural power in her.

I get that "vampire" is a metaphor. So is "the earth is a flat as a pancake". It's just not a metaphor that is helping you grasp your reality and it's certainly not a metaphor that aligns with getting your power back.

You have a therapist, a lawyer, a pastor, and a support group that will advise you on how to resolve this marriage and heal. My advice is to accept that mental illness or traits of mental illness is enough to describe her behavior and codependency is enough to describe yours and within this reality, you have a pretty short path to recovery if you embrace it.

Maybe running my challenge by your therapists and your pastor will help sort it out better.  *)

But is only advice - not debate. You, of course, are the ultimate judge of what to think and how to frame your reality. Whichever you choose, we will support you.

... .but aware nonetheless that this may be a slow, sad death... .

I have been in contact with my uBPDw since she moved out. She is doing quite well. Enjoys her place. Her daughter is happier and is "thriving" (acc'd to her) and "this move was really good for her" (well, that's good because it was always about her daughter anyway). I see the two of them really grooving in to a life obviously better without me. Last night she had friends over (used to be our friends) and they partied until the early hours of the morning. Life is moving on for her. I can see "us" in the rear view mirror, slipping further and further away.

It bothers me on many levels that I did everything for her and her daughter to try and make them happy. I gave until it hurt and was appreciated for NONE of it. They both treated my home like a flop house and garbage dump. Their new place, on the other hand, is orderly and clean. They actually take pride in where they live and my uBPDw is enforcing rules with her daughter that she never did with me. Just today, the kid left a bunch of change in her pocket that got washed. My uBPDw was quickly on her about it and said that the machine might break and it would cost a lot to replace it. She never ef'ing said that about my washing machine no matter how many times I mentioned that.

The flagrant disregard for my feelings and emotional and financial well-being was staggering and becomes even more illuminating by seeing how my uBPDw runs "her" house.

It occurred to me today that the more I gave and sacrificed and tried to get up after every BPD knock-down, the more my uBPDw disrespected me. Perhaps she never ever respected me and I lived in a delusion.

To be honest I am feeling like such a fool today. Any self respecting healthy person would have not taken such mistreatment for so long and simply called it quits. But no, I had to hang in there and keep hoping that this woman would start to respect me. Pathetic.

And I should just rip the bandaid off but I can't. Or won't. Because I don't want to feel the total pain of loss... .just a slow bleed.

Oh it makes me crazy! Get this. My uBPDw destroyed all our wedding photos and took great pains to remove any indication of her existence before she left. In her new place, she has no pictures of us, certainly no pictures of me, nor any indication of my existence. She no longer wears her wedding band. Deleted all evidence of me on FACEBOOK long ago even changing her name back to her former married name.

I am getting a roommate to help pay 'our' debts. She had the audacity to be upset and call it "poopy" ( you know the word) when she asked me if I told the new roommate about my situation about being separated from my wife and I said NO. Seriously? What?

OOH... .I get so frustrated!

Feel free to add your stories!

This is some real honesty here, michel71. I'm sorry that you feel foolish. In your shoes, I'd feel very hurt, angry, and foolish, too. 

It sounds like you are putting energy into paying attention to what she's doing. It happens. What's going on with you, though—how are you taking care of yourself while you grapple with this big change? Is there one step you can take for YOU that will make you feel better about yourself and has nothing to do with this relationship?

heartandwhole

Hi Michel71

I'm new here but I just wanted to say never feel foolish for trying to help someone you loved. The very heart of love is charity & sacrifice (of course, some levels more healthy than others) and what you did was amazing. She didn't appreciate it, but that doesn't make it worthless :)

Think of all the life skills you have learned, the empathy you can extend to other loved ones in your life, or any who may come in to your life in the future :)

Love

I have one... .In a way funny, but also very indicative of the Double Standard that BPD's can live within.

We are not Packers fans, but we did watch the Packers/Giants playoff game a couple of weeks ago.

When Rogers threw the hail mary TD pass at the end of the first half, I smiled in shock and disbelief as well as just recognizing an amazing effort.

She flipped me off, and said the words that go with the gesture with a look of hatred in her eyes and added that she can't believe that I would cheer for the Packers.

Fast forward a week.  Packers vs Cowboys.

At the end of the game, Rogers makes another heroic play, that sets them up for the game winning TD.  She laughs and smiles, and even says that maybe she's going to have to start cheering for the Packers.

Now fast forward to yesterday.  Packers vs Falcons.

Lets just say, she took great joy in the Packers demise, and numerous times did the Nelson from the Simpsons 'Hah Hah!' laugh.

All I can say is that once you get to the point of depersonalizing, and give up hope that your pwBPD will ever get better, there is some level of humor that you can find in it all.

Do you have all day?

I feel like most of what happened was a double standard.

I do wonder how helpful it is for me to dwell on this stuff. Since I am detaching, it does help to remind me of why I kicked him out and why I am detaching. Since this is on the conflicted board, I wonder what it is you are hoping to achieve by looking at the double standards. If you are hoping to win her back, looking at all of the double standards might create more resentment and anger. I know I get angry looking at this stuff. I get more angry at myself than him quite frankly. I am angry at myself for putting up with so much crap. I want more.

He would puff up his chest that he was the primary bread winner. He completely dismissed the fact that I had a job and took care of the kids. When I got a second part time job, the first words he said were, "What about my stuff? What am I going to do with the kids on those nights?" He spent all of those years talking about being the primary bread winner. Now, I am doing it all and he is wallowing in his mental health and healing. When I try to bring up the fact that I need him to get a job, he says stuff like, "I can't make people hire me." I was supposed to praise him and fall all over myself giving him credit for every little thing he did yet he couldn't/wouldn't acknowledge anything I did.

And if you really want to get creepy, there is the stuff that happened when we were experimenting with an "open" relationship. I lived up to my end of the bargain. I put him in touch with 2 of the 3 gentleman that I was talking to at different times. I didn't meet anybody or do anything without letting ex know. Yet, he would lie to me and tell me that he wasn't doing anything. All the while he was talking to several different women and sending them pics and telling them all kinds of horrible things about me. He could do whatever he wanted and I wasn't supposed to say a word. In my opinion, it was a set up. Even now, he has told people that I was dating because I was doing it openly and honestly. He never once mentions the fact that he has chased several women in the year or two that we have been separated. He keeps all of his crap secret. I look like the fool idiot if I say anything. I get stuff like, "Oh, he would never do that." Nah, he would do it, he is just going to hide it to keep up his good boy image. Me, I don't hide stuff. I don't have an image to maintain.

Here is another good one. He used to complain that I didn't keep the house clean enough. There was one time when he was with the kids alone and I came home and asked why the house wasn't cleaned or something like that. I had basically left a list of stuff for him and the kids to do while I was gone. When I got back, little if any was done. His excuse was, "It is hard to take care of kids and clean the house. Daughter was particularly difficult today so I didn't get anything else accomplished." Oh, that stuff made me so mad. I was expected to clean the house, keep up with all of the finances, keep up with meal planning, kids, two part time jobs, and who knows what else. Yet, he whines about how hard it is to take care of the kids and the house.

And the best one was a night when I got upset with the kids and got a little loud. I was tired and all four of them were refusing to go to bed. I yelled at them to go to bed. Ex woke up and was grumpy and growly. I don't remember all of the specifics. I just know that he was pizzed off. I was trying to get in the room and he pushed me down while I was holding our youngest daughter. This was more than 5 or 6 years ago. He always said that I lost my footing and fell. I know he pushed me. The point is that when we talked about it later, he told me, "If you hadn't gotten so loud and could have just been quiet, there wouldn't have been a problem." He made it sound like I was being unreasonable and crazy. He was friggin' sleeping. He is the one that got upset over his sleep getting disturbed not me.

Lol. This could also take me all day. I'll briefly describe a few.

He could cheat on me (and did constantly) but on recommending an open relationship he melted down for daysssss. His cheating was because of his hyper sexual past, so I just had to deal with being cheated on over 50 times in our relationship.  We're no longer together, and when a mutual friend mentioned that I have been dating one person a couple times, he reached out to me freaking out. Meanwhile, since the split he has had 10+ casual partners by his own admission.  But me having a few dates - got so much HOW COULD YOU? even months after break up.

He could hit me (and send me to the hospital) but if I ever defended myself or shoved him in away in reaction, it was my fault for "starting it". Makes zero sense! Talk about chicken and the egg(shells).

Same thing with rages. If I lost my patience and became angry in response, it was my fault for "starting it". This makes zero sense at all too!

God I could keep going on but I have been getting so much better from now dwelling on this stuff anymore. The further he gets from me emotionally, the better I feel. And I've met a few awesome new potential bfs and have thoroughly enjoyed how liberating it is to meet new, normal people. It provides such great distance. Def recommend it if you are feeling ready or even on the fence. Nothing to lose and tremendous potential to help process detaching.

Thank you Heart. Yes I have to concentrate on me and not focus on her. I know that is part of trying to heal.

Thank you Faith for your kind words. You are right. We must not lose sight with what we have to give others, even if the one you thought was the love of your life didn't care.

*mod*

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now locked. Please feel free to continue the discussion in a new thread.