BPDFamily.com

Mother is 88, and in a serious mental health crisis along with her laundry list of physical problems.  She has fiercely resisted assisted living for some years, saying "she would rather die".  She has also fiercely resisted getting home care help. 

After an acute eye infection 2-3 years ago, she had to put drops in her eyes 4X/day.  She lives independently, and I was not going to drive there 4X/day to put them in and give up my life, so I managed to get home care.  After about 4 months she cancelled home care and started putting in her own drops.  The problem is she has Parkinson's and shakes like a leaf, so the drops don't actually get in.

Yesterday my H took her to her ophthalmologist appointment, and learned that her vision is now 20/400 and 20/100.  She's going blind.  Her eye doc told her yesterday that moving forward, she needed home care to put her drops in.  She started blubbering in front of her Dr who recognized she is depressed, and also told her that to keep the vision she has, she needs home care to put all her drops in.

Last week she had another ministroke.  She chewed 2 aspirin and didn't even report it to her Dr.

She's lost so much weight that her PJ bottoms don't stay up on her bum.  Kind of a nasty situation when visiting.  She doesn't care.

Both her hearing and word recognition have declined, so she now hears 32% at 85dB in one ear and 36% at 80 dB in the other ear.  Trying to talk to her is a gong show.  It's impossible to have a conversation.

Before we went on our holiday, she told her Dr she was depressed and asked for an increase dose of her antidepressant.  He prescribed it.  Now she refuses to fill the prescription and says she's not taking a higher dose.

She wanted a bath assist, but since she refuses to get any service through home care (i.e. an OT to come assess and advise which type of bath assist would be better for her), my H told her she could pay to have a private OT come look.  She said yes to the price.  The OT advised her on her bath assist, and also told her she should not be taking her compost outside (which involves going down 3 steps).  She didn't want to hear that, so when the invoice came, she told my H "she wasn't paying that BI_ _ H".  H told her he had guaranteed the visit to his credit card, and she replied that "he could pay for it". 

While we were on holidays, her housekeeper got daily calls from her, including that her phone wasn't working.  There is nothing wrong with the phone.  But she bugged her housekeeper daily until the housekeeper went out and bought her a new one. Attention seeking?  Now she has 2 phones.

This isn't even the tip of the iceberg.

Her "independent living" is a horror show.

Today I told her family Dr that she was refusing to taking her increased dose of anti-depressant, and talking about "assisted death".  He said he would "note it on her file" but didn't say we should bring her in.  She is scheduled to get a "home assessment", but will undoubtedly cancel it, because she can.  She has already cancelled it 2X since last May (when she was supposed to get it).

She's negative, mean, and utterly toxic to be around.  She will never follow medical advice that would help her, and she texts H and I each daily to tell us how terrible her life is.  We never reply.

A few days ago, I got a text from mom "You have figured out how to spend the least amount of time with me".

I live a 5 min drive from her.  I am well past being "burned out".  The truth is I don't even want contact any more.  After spending my life trying to be the perfect daughter to her, I let go of the "impossible" 3 years ago, and stopped being her "caregiver".  H took over grocery shopping and bringing her to appointments, and he acknowledges it's the hardest thing he's had to do in his life.  He would like to "be done".   I've only seen her once in the last 3 weeks because after we got home from our trip we got Covid, and then after we recovered from that, we were gone for a weekend again.

I'm feeling FOG to visit her again this weekend, but I know it will be a disaster.

Any advice?

I understand- I am sorry we arrive at feeling like you do. It's not something we wanted and I think also, we have tried to not feel this way- putting aside our own feelings and trying to be a good daughter.

I think this is why that article I posted about the woman whose BPD mother got evicted and she was expecting a baby and couldn't take the risk for the baby seemed so relatable. We aren't in her exact situation but there's the struggle. To protect our own mental well being- we have to be firmer than we ever wanted to be and it feels mean, it feels wrong.

We want to be good daughters but in a way, I don't think we can be- unless we resign ourselves to servitiude with them. I think their need is so high, and that is their focus.

BPD mother said something to me the other day that seemed to explain it. She's depleted her savings. She has enough of a monthly income to manage but it's going to be tighter. We have been trying to get her to priorize her spending - she had a comfortable amount, but not now. She was saying what will she do, what will she do? And I said to her, "we tried to discuss this with you but you didn't care".

She said "when she's in pain, she doesn't care about anything else". (but what she feels she needs in the moment). She has some physical conditions, but she has pain medicine for that. She isn't in physical pain. There are nurses on staff and nurses come to see her and they check for that. This is her BPD emotional situation and I think she's focused on that.

She doesn't care about the impact of her behavior on me or anyone else- so I have to be the one to care, and with any "no" to her needs- she will perceive this as somehow hurting her- no matter if my intentions are not to hurt her.

Methuen, I think what you are seeing is this seemingly bottomless emotional pit of needs. Our mothers look outside themselves to begin to fill it- maybe through relationships, or substance abuse, or addictive spending- but it's impossible to fill it. We can try- but we can't be successful- nobody can. We feel a sense of pull towards a mother but also a sense of dread.

It's hard to say no and it's hard to feel "mean" but I think at some level, we have to accept that any "no" to our mothers is going to be difficult and feel "mean" to them and to us. But without that "no", there is no limit on their part to what they feel they need from us.

For me, I need the emotional support of people who "get it"- and also in confidence. This means counselors. I recall a meeting with a social worker where I knew BPD mother was going to raise the topic of moving near me. I dreaded that meeting, dreaded saying no.

But I have stayed with her alone in her house to help out and I know how that goes. Of course we are willing to help with an elderly parent but with our mothers - that help is inseparable from their emotional and verbal abuse, and manipulations. It's not the help we are refusing- it's the abusive behavior- and it's not possible to separate the two.

I dreaded that meeting. What I did was find a counselor online who did virtual appointments and whose specialty was abusive relationships. I contracted with her for one appointment and during that appointment, we role played- with me saying no and then dealing with the reaction. I wrote down what I wanted to say at the meeting. There was one moment where BPD mother did get to me and I began to react, and JADE- but I could see it and quickly went back to script.

I also lean on my 12 step group and I understand your situation- being in a small area. I am in a relatively small area too. It is easier that my mother isn't in the same town. Whatever is working best for you- lean on your support people- people who do "get" it.

This is a difficult situation but - decide what you can do and what you are willing to do. It won't meet your mother's expectations or needs, so it has to fit your own- whatever that is. Your mother seemed to be managing while you were on holiday- so you know she has her resources.

In a similar behavior pattern- my mother has poor circulation in her legs and won't comply with medical advice. She won't wear the supportive stockings. She won't put her feet up. So then, she gets sores on her legs. She won't let the nurse do proper wound care. She's been warned about the possible serious complications and it seems she allows them to do enough of the care to avoid them but not enough to allow her legs to actually get better.

Your mother remains in control of her decisions, and her situation. You can do what you are able and willing to do- but it's your mother who is self determined. This is difficult. I'm sending you virtual hugs as you navigate this.

Is is possible that your mother is now at the point where she would most likely be declared mentally unfit to manage her own care? It could be time for a consult with a lawyer. Thinking of you and hoping you can do what is best for your own self care.

I don't know the laws where you are, Methuen, but I am in the US and I have met with an elder law attorney. Here, the law is to protect the indvidual's autonomy and for the elderly- to protect them from elder abuse- as some adult children may attempt to take control of an elderly person and the finances. So were I to go to court over my BPD mother's ability to make decisions, the suspicion would be on me, not her. I would have to show evidence- specifically a neuropscych evaluation, and have witnesses and documentation. So far no medical professional has certified her as incompetent.

She's had moments where she's been confused and her care team has begun to pursue it and then she turns around and is lucid again. Sometimes there's a possible reason like infection or medication but also, I wonder if she may be feigning it sometimes. Also, each time a provider has asked me to step in with my POA- she then reverses the decisions, and also then paints me black to her providers. I am reluctant to do this now. I also don't want to have the power struggle over any decision I make for her, even if  I would make the best one I can think of for her.

A court case on her behalf would be costly and likely to fail as I don't have evidence and she would "pull it together" in front of the judge. It's a useless attempt. However, the information I did gain from the attorney was well worth it- even if I can't do anything. I think there's value in knowing about the process.

It still comes down to this: Only a crisis situation would prompt a change. She refused assisted living until it became evident that the bank would repossess her house if she didn't move and sell it. As long as your mother is self directed and is maintaining in the house - even if it isn't doing it well- she's likely to maintain the right to do so.

We don't want our mothers to suffer- whether it's due to their own decisions or not up to them. So knowing we can't do anything to control their decisions feels helpless. I do support their right to autonomy and self direction when it comes to their decisions, but then they also need help. It's a difficult situation.

A one hour consult with the right kind of attorney can be well worth the time and money. It does not mean you have to take action or be the one to do so. Sometimes it is a government agency that will take the necessary steps to get a person into the right care.

Zachira- I fully agree. It was well worth it. It was also worth it to be able to explain to extended family just why I can not take control of her situation. It was also worth it to call social services to ask about my father- their reply "legally competent to make their own bad decisions" has helped me in difficult situations where I am not able to intervene.

Some of the behaviors Methuen is describing sound like her mother might be suicidal which could translate into meeting the requirements for an involuntary mental health hospitalization where she would likely be fully evaluated for her competency to care for herself.

Methuen, I think a home visit is critical. Can you schedule one and arrange to meet the visiting nurse ( or social worker, or whomever), at your mother's house along with your husband. Your mother will be furious, but a home visit is called for.

Unless...the 4x a day home health nurse can assess just as well?

Methuen,

I concur with some of the other posters who wonder if your mother would still be deemed legally competent, and able to make decisions about her well-being.  During the last couple of years, I went through the end-of-life process for my father.  It was clear that he had deteriorated considerably, physically as well as mentally.  He was also very depressed and in pain, and that made him uncooperative and nasty at times (but no where near as bad as the BPD behaviors described on these boards).  He was ultimately deemed unfit, at which time, my mother and I made critical decisions for him, even if we found ways for him to THINK he was still in control.  Looking back on it, however, I think he should have been deemed unfit at least a year earlier.  But it was tough to read, as he'd have some not-so-bad days; it's just that in the last couple of years, the proportion of bad days outweighed the good ones.  He hated losing control of his life, mind and body, and he was acting out.  An example is that he would throw food when he didn't get what he wanted to eat.  He was obstinate about taking medications, and that was exasperating, as you've mentioned.  He didn't want to do what the doctors told him, and I think can be a sure sign of unfitness (as well as stubbornness, which was part of his usual personality).

Does it help once your mother has other people making decisions for her?  Maybe.  But she'll still lash out.  If she's mean, you might take that as a sign that she's not feeling well . . . that's just how she shows she's in pain and unhappy.  By now, you should know not to take her behavior personally.  But I know it's so hard, as you still have to deal with her, and you want to be a good daughter.  You are.  Your mom will probably never understand that--her mind and body are probably too far gone--but what's important is that you understand that you're doing your best, and that's all that matters.

I agree that it is important to not take this behavior personally- it's not about you, it never was about you.

There is a difference though between this and an elderly parent lashing out in their elder years. My MIL and father did some of this. It was emotionally difficult with my father as - even if it wasn't personal- so hard to hear.

With my BPD mother- while age has influenced her behavior- it's not much different than it ever was. Verbal and emotional abuse - that is a constant. There isn't the bond or the memory of a better relationship. When my usually sweet MIL snapped at me once- I knew, this isn't her. With my BPD mother- it is her- this is who she is and our relationship is similar to what it has been. The main difference is that I am not a child and so have choices about what boundaries to have with her.

I do agree with a social service visit, if there's a chance it might help.

Is your mother suicidal? Hard to know. Mine isn't. She has a strong survival instinct but she will say things sometimes. It would be alarming except that she is in a supervised situation so they aren't possible. Saying things like she's going to jump out the window. The windows are locked and she would not be able to climb up to them if she wanted to. Is assisted death even legal where you are Methuen? It's not in my mother's area. She would not ever choose that if it were.

One of the most confusing behaviors my mother is doing is refusing to bathe. She's not been diagnosed with dementia. She's not depressed ( and she is on an antidepressant). She has regular nurse assessments. Nobody has come up with a reason, other than to be in control. But it's so unlike her as she's been invested in her appearance. She gets her hair done nicely, wears nice clothes but she won't bathe - to the point where it's really bad and then she's forced to.

I understand the concern about being judged in a small town. One of our neigbors - who I didn't know well- was living alone as a elderly widower. Friends would drop in on him to check on him. I thought he was well liked. His wife was- she was involved in a large church community and people liked her so I assumed he was too.

Turns out, after hearing about him from people who know him- he is a difficult person. His house was a mess and people became concerned. His daughter lived nearby. I asked "what about her?" and got no reply. So I read between the lines on this. If she isn't involved, something is up.

Not once have I heard any criticism of the daughter. These are the kind of people who wouldn't say a mean word about anyone but they - not in a mean way- made it clear that this man is difficult and even they had a difficult time with helping him. He needed a nursing home but wouldn't go. I suggested calling social services.

I think a common entry point to a nursing home facility is if the person gets an illness, goes to hospital, and it becomes apparent that they can not return to independent living. It is understandable that nobody wants to be in one, and so would only do so if it was the only choice. Last I heard, this man did just that- went to hospital and then to nursing home.

The friends still visit him. I don't know if his daughter does. We know that someone with BPD or other disorders can have a different relationship with friends than with family. I haven't heard any critical comments about the daughter. Perhaps they know more about the situation than they would let on.

We don't talk about such things- and so we assume we are the only ones with this kind of secret and there's a shame to it- because we do feel shame that we don't have a "normal" relationship with our mothers.

During one of the conversations with the friends - one of them brought up a disordered sister who has created family drama. And I'd have not ever guessed this about this family. I know there's a fear of being judged and some people do judge us- but there could also be other people who understand it better too.

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies. 

Interestingly, the door to assisted living seems to have been opened a crack in mom’s mind.  She may be warming to the idea, or it may be a game..  We have recently spoken to several of her friends who have told us they have spoken to her about it and encouraged her to go.

I am more hopeful now that other people are seeing the truth.

She has a home assessment tomorrow. Historically she pulls it together for these.  H will be with her. We put together a letter to the worker to give her a heads up, and received a confirmation it was received. This assessment was supposed to happen last May, but mom cancelled it.  She has the “capacity” and the right to do that.

I’m not holding my breath as I don’t know that I have the resilience to navigate another disappointment.  Too many times mom has performed for the assessment - and said she doesn’t want assisted living. 

We’ll see how tomorrow goes.

I may be at the point where it’s time to speak to a lawyer just to explain the situation and get information as some of you have suggested.

Even if she said she’s ready, there’s a two year waiting list, so nothing is likely to change since she is defiant against getting home care help.

NW, your mom refusing a bath doesn’t surprise me.  Nothing about a bpd mother surprises me anymore.  The contrariness fits the BPD.  My mom has “cancelled “ a lot of baths too.

Thankfully we have started having more conversations with some of the people around mom, and the one’s we’ve spoken with are on to her.  But we haven’t spoken to all of them.


She does have a way of smothering people with her neediness and being consistently demanding.  We sense that some of them are also tired of her.

Perhaps the situation is turning towards the idea of assisted living. If there is a two year wait- it's a good idea to get on the wait list just in case. I also think it's a good idea to speak to a lawyer- so you know what the laws are for elder care in your country and also what to do legally if your mother was ever to be considered "legally mentally incompetent". I think for many people, speaking to a lawyer when it comes to a mother seems extreme- but our relationships are different.

For change to happen, it's been a crisis situation. BPD mother's choice is to remain in control unless she doesn't have that choice. My BPD mother had been needing assisted but refused suggestions to consider it. We were not the only ones suggesting it- friends were too. It wasn't until there was a risk of the bank taking her house and her relatives intervening that she considered it.

In assisted living, care needs are determined by physical needs. Assisted living is still a bit of a mismatch because her emotional needs exceed her physical needs. She still has the relationship issues. But it does take care of the basic needs and this would be a good thing for you and your H- to know that your mother has her basic needs met. I hope this is something that can be worked out for you.

I live in the United States and my BPD mother has been kicked out of two assisted living centers.  My mother broke the rules,was constantly seeking their attention, was rude and argued with staff and other residents.  My mom went there voluntarily (I can't get a doctor to deem her incompetent) and neither can APS.   She was living in a hotel room for a few weeks with a drug addict friend then got sick again and is cured to in a physical rehab center she has about 60 days left in there that insurance will pay for. My mom is diabetic and non compliant she broke her foot and due to her disorder she didn't take care of it and had a leg amputation.  She neglects herself on purpose for attention seeking and to feed her opiate and tranquilizer addiction. No one can tell her what to do. She will yell and lie and be vile.  No one on the family wants anything to do with her.  I live in a different state but I am her emergency contact and try to help with things as I can.  Be careful. You don't think about what happens when their behavior gets them kicked out.

losthero I am sorry.  The addiction piece is a double whammy.  What I have learned is that we can not rescue them from themselves.  NW has posted a link to a story that all of us can relate to, and includes the addiction piece as well.  If you haven't seen it already, I would recommend it.

https://slate.com/technology/2022/03/mentally-ill-parent-elder-care-boundaries-liz-scheier.html

Here is my update:
Her RAI assessment was in her home.  My H was present.  I was at work.  We sent notes to the assessor the week before.  This cued him to dig deeper when mom wasn't forthcoming.  You may recall that a few years ago mom got an eye infection after macular degeneration shots.  She had to get eye drops 4X/day.  She can't do it herself because she's 88 and has Parkinson's.  After 3-4 months, she cancelled the home care for putting her drops in and said she could do it herself, even though everyone including home care told her the drops were not getting in her eye when she did it herself.  Now she is going blind.  One eye is 20/400 (the eye that had the infection), the other eye is 20/100.  When H was with her at her recent ophthalmologist appt she was told by the Dr that home care needed to put her drops in.  She insisted she could do it. We had cued the RAI assessor to this (although they should have known because they are the same ones that let her cancel the home care service), and he asked her this:  Would you like to have home care put the drops in your eyes, and lose your remaining vision more slowly, or would you like to put your own drops in and go blind faster? She worked hard to weasel out of that but the assessor firmly repeated the same question....4X!! She acquiesed and said ok, but then yesterday and today kept insisting she could do her own drops.

I had enough.  I finally put my big girl pants on and stood up to her.  I told her the drops were not getting in her eyes.  Everybody who knows her that we've spoken to has also told us the drops are not getting in her eyes.  She can argue and pretend that they are but they are NOT.  She is going blind because she puts her own drops in.  She's causing her own blindness. I was firm and forceful, and frustrated. I had to rinse and repeat this message a few times.

Then she started in about it being the Dr's fault because she got the infection.  To which I pointed out she was a nurse and knew full well that with any surgery there was a risk of infection, and when she started getting these eye shots she knew about that risk and accepted it.

So then she laid down on her couch to "prove" she could put her own drops in, so I got my phone out and recorded it, and sent her the video, and promptly left her house.

She truly has zero insight into why she's going blind.  The macular degeneration shots have been working for 10 years. And the drops were working until she started putting them in herself.  I do not understand how someone 88 years old with ZERO insight can be deemed competent.

Yesterday her housekeeper called and left a message and said the handle on mom's toilet was broken.  So we went there and my H had to fix that which meant a bunch of time going to get new parts etc.  While he was gone, she went on a complaining binge, to which I said I had enough of her complaining and negativity, and wasn't going to listen to it anymore.  She started gaslighting me and twisted it to say "I make her feel bad", and then she fell off the cliff and tensed up and screamed she wanted to kill herself.  So I calmly asked her if I should call the ambulance?  I was prepared to follow through, but she pulled herself together and started blabbering about people from 70 years ago in another town that I've never heard of.

Mom also told me about a bowel movement "shaped like an orange" that gave her a LOT of trouble and didn't want to go down the toilet.  That night we called the housekeeper back to thank her for the message, and to communicate the toilet was fixed.  We used the opportunity to chat about mom.  Turns out the housekeeper got called in because the problematic bowel movement had plugged the toilet, flooded the bathroom floor, and with mom's bad vision she had stepped in it and then tracked it down her hallway to the bedroom - all on carpet.  The poor housekeeper cleaned all that up.  Mom of course had not shared those details.

Mom has an appointment coming up with the geriatrician this next week.  I forwarded notes to his office assistant divided into these sections: cognitive, physical, functional, social and affective, complete with examples and quotes from mom "I'm going to kill myself".  It took me over 5 hours to write that.  Historically mom pulls herself together for these assessments and puts on a Hollywood performance.  Then she falls apart the very next day.  We've been documenting her appointment results and dysfunctional behaviors for over 3 years - including texts, emails, and recordings so I had plenty of facts to draw from to produce "evidence".  I also included in these notes that mom is talking about euthanasia almost every time we see her now, and when she figures out nobody will listen or participate in that, I am concerned she will amp up the threats to kill herself.

It's a flipping crazy making gong show.  We are so worn out.

She’s really spiralling out of control.

I read your post Methuen but will keep it short.

The write up you made is very helpful but as someone in healthcare I can imagine that being put into as little use in reaching an immediate decision, while your mum’s performance at assessments will be taken seriously.

If I was in your position:


1) I will focus on the threats to harm herself- raise serious concerns and here’s your chance to amp things up- I can’t see a medical professional wriggling out of their responsibility to keep your mum safe.

2) I would start drumming it loud and clear that you have reached your limit with caring for your mum. If the professionals insist on assessing her to be competent then you owe it to yourself to wash your hands clean.

I sound cold and heartless but I work within the healthcare system and know that as long as relatives are willing to provide some support, her care needs will not be escalated. You will basically continue doing what you have been doing until you stop. The FOG will hold you captive until you set yourself free.

In Europe, this might mean a temporary solution with your mum being placed in respite until a permanent placement is found.

Methuen,
It sounds like your mother is close to the end of her life And she won't be here much longer with her rapidly deteriorating mental and physical health.

When your mother threatens to commit suicide, it is not up to you to handle that or make any decisions about whether the suicide threats are real or just another one of her manipulations to get your attention. Where I live, we can call for an immediate home assessment from a mental health team to determine whether an involuntary psychiatric placement is warranted. What resources do you have in your area that would assess your mother for suicidality and the need for an involuntary commitment to a psychiatric facility?

As always keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Thank you for this TM.   :heart: 

We are hearing the #2 message (about the person never getting into assisted living if there are other supports in place such as relatives, friends) from multiple sources, including people working within home care and health care here.  They are triaging patient applications for assisted living, and so only those without supports get in to assisted living.  Which means burned out family and friends must walk away from supportive roles and let the elderly person struggle alone and suffer until they end up in hospital, and family refuses to take them home.  Once they are in the hospital taking up a bed, the system has to deal with them.

It feels inhumane.  And yet the situation with mom is impossible.  She fights everything.  She fights every diagnosis.  Every prescription.  Every recommendation for her health and well being. She's high conflict, and only knows 3 things: complaining, negativity, and meanness. I've talked to her housekeeper, her gardener, and her 2 best long time friends, and they all say they have had to start saying "no" to her when she makes demands for them to come help her, and have had to put in "boundaries". They have all recently told me they feel so bad for H and I.  Their eyes are open and they can see what is happening.  So to look after ourselves once we are beyond our own breaking point, there seem to be no other options than walking away when she won't accept help into her house, and she won't/can't get into assisted living.

It is awful.  I still love her, but this is NOT a reciprocal or safe love, and I have been slowly distancing myself from her emotionally over the past 5-10 years.  More recently, her decisions, and drama, and chaos, and living situation have steamrolled our lives since we got home from our trip a month ago, and infiltrated our daily life pretty much 24/7.  We are frustrated and exhausted.

Tracking your own poop over your house because you can't see it should cross a red line.

Out of curiosity, may I ask if you work in health care in the USA, Canada, Europe, or elsewhere?  I am in Canada.

As usual Zachira, you make good points.  I have so many recordings of her saying she wants to kill herself or she wants to die.  I don't believe they are suicide threats.  Instead they are statements about her "feelings", designed to get a reaction and attention, and blow off some steam, as well as make the other person feel guilty and caretake her "feelings". But at some point with how things are going (she's talking about euthanasia a lot), it could slide to something darker.  And she's always been extremely impulsive.

But I hear you, and together with tangledmangled's message, I agree that it's a good strategy to pursue.  We need to push that one harder as it's more likely to get attention from the system. 

Methuen,
I have some additional thoughts which may or may not be helpful or relevant. I am wondering why your mother has to go to an independent living near you when there is a long waiting list in your area. Would it make sense to have her go to assisted living or whatever facility best meets her needs when she is forced to go so she would not live so close to you which would give you and your husband some badly needed relief from having her live too close to you?

I understand this, Methuen, and even without not living close to my mother, I have come to this feeling too. Also, because I am not nearby- other people have assisted her- and so I have seen them become frustrated at her behavior- so I know it's not only with me. Although it is sad for your mother, Methuen, knowing that other people in proximity to you are empathetic to you and H's, hopefully will help.

There's another story on this board- the Bridge- that I think of in this situation. What feels like an impossible choice.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=65164.0;all

As to your mother's threats of assisted death. If you are in Canada- it's legal then. It isn't in the US in the state my mother is in. I can't speak for your mother but for mine, she wouldn't do it even if it were legal. She's also made threats but the motive is to be manipulative and punitive. Any time she's seeked medical care she has indicated that she wants to be a full code. At a hospitalization, the hospital doctor asked about this and also her own doctor has asked her to change her mind. In her mind, not being full code means doing nothing and letting her go and she wants everything done.

What she didn't understand is that a full code means chest compressions with CPR and these would cause more damage than good and not be effective. It doesn't meant that she wouldn't get fluids, or nutrition, or medication if she wanted that. Once she understood this, she changed her mind about full code.

She says she wants everything done but it doesn't mean she will agree or comply with it. So there's this paradox- she wants to have everything done for her and then- as you say, she fights it. Due to her not complying with the care offered, she did qualify for Hospice and then did better so she's not on Hospice now.

She makes threats, but they aren't realistic. She said she was going to jump out her window. She can't get to the window to do that and it's locked.

As scary as what your mother is saying- you don't have to be the one to decide if she's serious about it or not. All you can do is to  get her medical help when she does make threats- and I agree- that is also a way to get her the medical attention she needs- a good strategy- as they will evaluate her. I think it's helpful to you too as it doesn't put you in the position to decide on her threats- the medical professionals are in a better position to to that.

Methuen,
I’m in the UK, the principles are thesame no matter the country. We all swore the Hippocratic oath.
What you have described happens where I am and the system only gets involved following an incident. Usually a broken hip, then immobility, increasing confusion, constipation etc. the patient becomes even more incompetent then they are assessed to be cared in the community either at home with round the clock care or at a care home.
Zachira has made some interesting points about seeking care out of area.
The issues at hand is safety- I’ve witnessed elderly patients attempt suicide so your mum’s threats are to be taken seriously. Remember she was a nurse too- this is also a risk factor to consider.

We would be all over this!  The problem is that mom still has capacity and would have to consent.  Thanks for your continued problem solving effort  :heart: I so appreciate that you keep trying to help with ideas.

It's been a game changer.  In the last two weeks, we have been able to have an honest candid conversation with all the one of her supports.  The ones we spoke to were so compassionate.  They see what is going on with mom.  They call her stubborn.  One called her pig-headed.  They all said they feel really bad for us.  Two of them said they have seen enough to know they will never do this to their daughters.  I have always struggled with guilt from societal values that daughters are expected to care for their elderly mothers. Those expectations are heavy, and all my friends have "normal" mothers, so I have felt misunderstood and ashamed that I can't do that for my mom.  Now I have learned that almost all of these people not only feel bad for us, but several of them have had candid conversations with mom that we are getting on in life as well, and "need" to be able to live our own lives. They have told mom point blank she should go into assisted living.  Of course the problem is that now it is too late, and they are triaging who gets in.  The good thing though is that knowing these people are sympathetic, has given H and I the courage to do some advocacy.  We have written advance notes for the RAI assessor and the geriatrician (they each got different notes), and also sent follow up notes (after the RAI assessment was done) to the RAI assessor. 

As per recommendations from some of you on this thread, we had sections pertaining to her depression and her speech about "wanting to die" and "kill herself", as well as giving some details to our degree of burnout.  My H declared that the next time mom refuses or cancels home care help, he is going to tell mom "he can't help her anymore."

I'm not expecting anything to come from this.

But at least we've put it in print for the proper authorities.  It's been at least 10 hours each this week of collecting quotes, data, documented stories and organizing it into structured and concise documents.  It's been a lot.

You are right NW.  I had forgotten about this story.  But it fits perfectly - the dilemma of "letting go" the other person to save oneself.  Thanks for the reminder. 

As for the assisted death, I don't believe mom would qualify.  There are strong rules in place to protect vulnerable people.  I don't think mom fits the criteria because there are way too many things she hasn't done that she could do such as taking her prescribed antidepressant to manage the depression. No docs are going to sign off on this.  Furthermore, her suffering and death isn't "imminent".

Aside from that, we believe mom's jabbering about euthanasia is more of a call for help, or even an attention getting ploy.  She already asked her Dr for a higher dose of antidepressant, but then refused to take it!  She just loves to cause chaos and dust up a whole lot of attention and people talking to her, and she can get that when she talks about wanting to die.

Like you, we don't even believe she wants to die.  It's more hyperbole - and her ways of expressing her feelings, and getting attention.  Mom is a FIGHTER.  Taking euthanasia is accepting the end and maybe a more dignified death.  Mom doesn't "accept" anything.  She didn't "accept" the diagnosis of Parkinson's.  She doesn't "accept" home health help even though she needed it 5 years ago.  There's a million examples of her "not accepting".  No.  Mom will fight death to the end.  Her entire family (siblings and father) is malingerers.  They lived into their late 90's.  Mom will draw this out as long as possible.

Suicide attempt - now that is more believable.  She has enough pills, and she's emotional and impulsive.

I included this risk in the notes to the authorities.

That is an excellent point about risk factor and her being a nurse.  So grateful for this forum.  You have all helped us focus on what is most likely to make an impact as we put our notes and letters together for assessors, geriatrician, and team leads.

Thank you everyone.

I hope for a good outcome for you Methuen- that your mother is determined to need help. I think it does help to have her in assisted living, albeit it's not perfect. There's drama there too but a staff nearby too.

The geriatrician recommended she see a geriatric psychiatrist. Apparently this could happen virtually- which I can’t even picture under the circumstances.  I do not see that working.  She can’t see or hear, or process.

She scored moderate cognitive decline on the cognitive test - last time she scored mild. So that’s on record, which is good.

She has been told that as per dr orders, home care will be coming in 4x / day to put the drops in her eyes. She continues to tell the world she can do it herself.  Nobody is listening but that doesn’t stop her from saying it- as she goes blind.

The home care starts next week.

Her dr gave this same order 3 years ago when I was at the appointment with her.

H has decided that if she cancels the eye drop home care service again, he will withdraw his services and support to her.

I am beside myself as she continues to cause chaos.  It is too much.

Three years ago I asked her family about a referral to a geriatric psychiatrist.  He didn’t think it was warranted. 

Nobody listens.

The referral to the geriatric psychiatrist feels useless.  There are no available beds for at least 2 years, and I can’t imagine a big decision or diagnosis would come from a zoom meeting anyways.

It just makes them look like they’re doing something after the letters we wrote.

This is the same organization where 5 months ago I was told that a conversation about my mom “wasn’t worth their time and resources “.

I have lost trust and faith.

Meanwhile the family is left alone to manage a mother who is irrational, irresponsible, negative, complaining, depressed, manipulative, and mean, and consuming.

And today the nurse at mom’s house setting up the schedule for her eye drops told my H what a “dear sweet lady” she is. 

That is how they choose to see her, after all her behaviors, and our disclosures, with evidence of  “quotes from messages, emails, recordings “ and full disclosure of what this has done to us.

I am just furious. She couldn’t have said anything worse.

I am so sorry- it's similar with my BPD mother, just with another medical condition. She has poor circulation in her legs. The nurses would come and wrap them with bandages and she'd take the bandages off. She'd even cut them off sometimes. The staff took any scissors out of her room. Then she had one of her friends bring her some (who does this- bring scissors to someone in assisted living?)

This provider refused to treat her due to her not complying. She went to Hospice and did well so they discharged her. Now she's with another provider.

She's not supposed to have any medicine with her in the room that isn't ordered, even over the counter medicine. She gets her friends to bring these to her anyway.

I think it's some kind of control thing- to "break the rules" on purpose or to not cooperate- even if it is in her best interest to cooperate.

Interesting that when they were considering a dementia diagnosis for my mother- the plan was to do it by Zoom. They eventually changed their minds about doing it. I also wondered how much can someone tell about a person by a Zoom call.

I understand your frustration. Even though I agree that it's better that my mother is in assisted living- it's a challenge there too.

My heart breaks knowing that you have been let down once again, and the chaos is likely going to get worse with your mother before there is any really meaningful relief for you.

So many families are no contact with close relatives after years of enduring impossible behaviors from their disordered relatives. Would you or your husband ever consider going no contact with your mother? It is a painful sad process to go through. I feel very sad I cannot have a relationship with my sister with NPD, and I am her main target, will always be so. You are your mother's main target for how badly she feels inside, and really all alone in this regard. Is there a boundary that your mother could cross that would make you go no contact with her? Would it ever be possible for you and your husband to tell your mother you will be going no contact with her if she cancels the home health care for the eye drops? If you genuinely mean what you are saying and can convey this to your mother, perhaps she is a skilled enough manipulator to understand that what you are saying is for real.

Who supervises the agency that has let you down so many times? I have found that going higher up with well documented genuine complaints can really get results sometimes.

Thinking of possible solutions for your heartbreaking challenges with your mother, none which may be relevant or helpful. It is all about what is right for you which may not be what is right for someone else.

If it were my mother, an ultimatum like that would not work with her. Hearing her interpretation of situations, she sees herself in victim mode. If someone asks her to do something, she feels as if the person is attacking her or criticising her. Due to her need for control, she may react by refusing or doing something hurftul to them or herself even.

I do wonder what is the motivation to not take medicine (like the eye drops for Methuen's mother, or cut off bandages). I know that my mother does not truly want to harm herself. If she has any discomfort or concern- she seeks medical care- but may not comply with it.

Methuen- about refusing or cancelling the home health. I didn't understand BPD dynamics well when my father got ill and discussed my concerns with his doctor and some sort of home health, physical therapy was arranged. My parents either refused a visit, or somehow became critical of whowever showed up, and found a reason to not have them come.

My BPD mother will accept help but only from people she can control. If anyone tries to get her to do something- for her own good- or holds their grounds with boundaries- she becomes critical of them and finds some reason to not have them come.

I think the underlying reason my parents were so critical of the home health is to avoid "discovery". BPD mother's issues are a family secret- and my father was also invested in presenting my mother as a competent person. They rarely had people over and when they did- it was a stressful and controlled situation. However, if someone spends time in their home- especially someone with professional training- it would be hard to maintain that impression. I wonder if some of the people who my parents were critical of may have been those who were concerned.

Methuen- you mentioned you live in a small area where everyone knows each other - so there's the risk of running into someone you and your mother know socially when seeking help. Your mother insisting she can do the drops herself- this is "saving face" even if it isn't in her best interest to do so. My mother does things like this too- insisting she can do something herself when she isn't able to.

I also recall that at the time, my parents refused any suggestion for senior living. I looked at some places and thought they would be suitable. These were places where my parents would still be able to have independent living- with the option for assisted living if help was needed. Dad would get his care needs met, and BPD mother would also have hers met. They'd have meals, transportation. I understand these places are not ideal and most elderly people want to be in their own homes,  but it was better than the two of them alone in their home.

Dad angrily refused my suggestions. BPD mother found something to be critical of with each of them. It didn't make sense to me until I realized that their priority was to avoid someone becoming concerned. I also think this is why my mother refused for so long- until she really didn't have a choice. She could not be in as much control as she had in her own house.

I think the feelings of losing autonomy are difficult for elderly people. I saw my in laws do the same thing- struggle over not being able to do things for themselves. They did get snippy at their kids sometimes. But this was also qualitatively different. If we keep in mind that pwBPD have difficulty managing their uncomfortable feelings- their feelings about becoming dependent may be similar- the "normal". It's how they cope with them that is different and unfortunately impacts relationships.

This fits.

But, for the past three years she has chosen advancing blindness over accepting help from home health to give her the drops.  She’s still in denial about the drops not getting into her eyes when she does it.  She doesn’t make the connection between putting in the drops herself and her advancing blindness. 

Her friends have even told her the drops don’t get in, and accepting help would be a good thing. They all see the same things we see with the exception of one flying monkey who is 90, and like mom, insists she will kill herself before she goes into a home.

So with the exception of 1 friend, mom has the Dr, nurse, H and I, and 5 friends all witnessing and telling her the drops aren’t getting in the eye, and for 3 years she can’t accept the truth?

What is that?  Not mental illness?

Yet every day she would text about being terrified of going blind.

I don’t get it!  Who wouldn’t accept help to keep their vision?

Is it self sabotage? 

Now that so much vision has been lost (20/400 in bad eye and 20/100 in good eye), and the health authority is onto her, she agreed to home health coming in to do her drops 4x/day Reluctantly (still insisting she can do them herself). 

For Hand I, it’s not a question of if she cancels the service but when.

We were there yesterday for a little visit, and she was running into her furniture with her walker.  This was the first time either of us saw that. It’s truly pathetic. She’s a wisp of a thing. But with a giant personality that is disordered.

Thank you Zachira. Yes the chaos will get worse. I have visions of what that could look like. When my mind goes there, I really have to work hard to bring myself back to the present.

My H has said that the next time she cancels home health he will withdraw his service to her.  I believe he will follow through.  That is his red line in the sand.

Eventually she will have a fall or a stroke and end up in hospital.  When they deem her dischargeable, we have agreed with each other that we will not drive her home.  Many hospital beds are taken up in our hospital for this reason.  It’s pretty sad and bad that families are driven to this. It’s a lack of resources.

It's difficult to understand this kind of behavior. I found another interesting article written by a sociopath. I've wondered about my BPD mother. She has NPD traits as well and she's even admitted to feeling good about herself when she lies to people and fools them. I've seen her smirk when I "fall for it" at times. She also does hurtful things- and while she feins empathy- anyone who actually felt empathy - I don't think they could do these things.

https://cupofjo.com/2024/04/04/what-it-feels-like-to-be-a-sociopath/

The author describes her behavior as similar to an OCD compulsion or even an addiction. I don't excuse my mother's behavior- but it seems like she can't help herself.


What about hurting people?
I wrote down the rule that I couldn’t hurt anyone. Then I thought, so, what can I do? Sneaking into a neighbor’s house, it’s like, look, there’s no one in this house, who cares if I’m here? But because I knew I wasn’t ‘supposed’ to do it, it felt good. It gave me a release. It can’t explain it more than that. If you’re a kid, and you throw a bottle, it feels good – this is similar. I didn’t really want to be doing that stuff, but I felt a compulsion.



Methuen, your mother is hurting herself physically. Mine has done this and also caused significant financial damage to her savings.  She is not eligible for Medicaid assistance due to her income and how she has spent her money.

And I do think  she's done this on purpose. I think she wants to make sure there is no inheritance and I have told her I wouldn't accept one if there was. But it's more than this- she's not just doing that. She's compromising herself.

Why would someone hurt themselves like this? What does this accomplish? I have learned that addicts engage in behavior that is harmful to themselves and their families but the payoff for this behavior- to them, the drug effect, is greater and this drives the addiction.

I wonder if the payoff- the creating stress and upset for their family members is a greater need for them.

As to their threats of self harm. When I was a teen, during one of her rages, BPD mother ran into my room with a plastic bag on her head. She didn't want to do herself harm, if she did, she'd have done it in her own room. No she wanted me to see this, and was screaming things at me like "you made me do this" (as best as I can recall), She was in my face with the bag over her head yelling at me. Of course I tore it off her right away.

Like you, we have our boundaries too. We have tried all we know to do, we've tried talking to her, but she continues to lie to me about her spending. If she needs something, it will have to be within her income- and fortunately, Dad did leave her a sufficient one- so she can choose to be cautious with it or not.

What are your red lines in the sand? It sounds like you have many already yet will have to draw some new ones if  your husband cancels his services to her. Not driving her home from the hospital and letting her stay there while the hospital staff figure out alternatives for her are one of many likely outcomes.

NW I am sorry your mother ran into your bedroom with a plastic bag over her head when you were a teen and said "you made me do this".  You are right that she wanted you to see that. That is so messed.  My mom did different things, but the goal was the same: to manipulate our feelings (make us feel bad and guilty) so that they could control us. 

As for the payoff - creating stress and upset for family members - yes.  I would add: for the goal of getting any kind of attention, but especially the kind that comes out of chaos.  Last weekend I got stern with mom when she insisted she could put her own drops in.  Not challenging her would mean I agree with her thinking.  So I straight up told her I was tired of her "fighting" everything. She brags about having a fighting spirit.  I told her that "fighting spirit" and putting her own drops in was the cause of her going blind.  I also told her I was sick of it and hearing about it.  I also told her that her and I were nothing alike because while she was a "fighter", I am not, and don't want anything to do with it.  I was irritated.  She had a little smirk on her face that she got me irritated.  I think for her it's an accomplishment.  It gives her a rush.  She thrives on chaos and conflict.  And I think that's the payoff you are referring to. Causing "chaos" is within her "box".  If things are going along too smoothly outside of the box, she has to contrive another crisis, to get back into her "comfort zone" which is "inside her box".

She's always been like that, but the circumstances she is living in now at her age, with her chronic and acute health problems and her frailty and blindness, is nothing short of crazy.

No normal person would choose that IMHO.

I agree- the self destructive behavior is crazy. And yes, chaos and crises- even in assisted living. If she were to have settled and been happy- there's less chaos.

There are times when I have gotten upset with her and realized the "gotcha" moment. She has a sort of grin when this happens. I feel like a fool when I fall for it. But lately it's exasperation.

She called me up the other day and the first thing she said was a lie and I knew it was a lie. I avoid speaking with her as I don't want to be angry -and the lying- it's like she can't not do it. Conversations don't work as if I say more than one sentence to her, she claims she can't hear me. She's complained about hearing but refuses to let the audiologist- who comes to her assisted living to check people regularly- check hers. Then she claims "nobody told her".

Rather than to try to explain something to her, I told her helper- who went over it with her. The lie was that the helper didn't tell her and she asked me about it and claimed "nobody told me" and I just said. "this is BS" Then, I tried to explain it to her and she said she couldn't hear well and I just out of exasperation said "I try to communicate these things to you but nothing effing works".

I won't resort to calling her names or cursing at her directly but the inability to communicate something and then her claiming she can't hear me and didn't know feels crazy. She calls me with financial questions but there's no way to inform her because she says she can't hear me, and so she then says she didn't have any idea and so avoids any responsiblity. Her room/board bills charges are electronic payments. She knows what these charges are. She's the one with the checkbook and credit card making the non essential purchases. She knows exactly what she's doing.

So, like you, we have to have boundaries. I understand your decision to let your mother stay in hospital and let social services decide. I have a friend whose father (NPD) was in that situation. He was living with his girlfriend who wouldn't take him back home and had no where to go. He's now in a nursing home with limited finances. My friend has not abandoned him though, she visits, brings him his favorite snacks and things he needs. She has a full time job. With his main needs met, she can more easily visit and do these things for him. He is still difficult to deal with personally but she can manage visits.

You know we'd both do something like this too if this was a similar situation. What is aggravating is that my BPD mother is creating "need" on purpose. She will spend money and then say she needs a blanket or a sweater. Of course I'd get her a sweater or blanket if there was genuine need- but she can afford her own blanket and I don't want to enable this behavior. So it's a hard "no".

Similarly to your mother, Methuen, it's somehow a deliberate dependency. Maybe it's their fear of abandonment too? If your mother accepted home health- you wouldn't be doing as much as you do? I think what is frustrating is the trying to help someone who won't help themselves and attempts to help don't work with them. What they can't seem to grasp is that- if they were able to accept help and work with us- we'd be involved by choice.

This is just classic. It’s like my mom who tells her Dr she needs more antidepressant- which involves my H because he takes her to the appointment - and then when it’s prescribed and sent to the pharmacy- she refuses to have the prescription filled and actually take the drug that SHE asked for.

My working theory for your mom refusing to see the audiologist is that she gets more attention when people have to repeat themselves.  People get naturally frustrated, which gives her a rush. Lastly it works better for her to say “ Nobody told her” - as this lets her blame others and never take accountability.  In her world, those benefits outweigh the benefits of actually being able to hear. Just my take.

We’re human.  I forgive myself for these moments and I trust you do too. She’s got you in a loop that feeds her need for attention and chaos.  Is it possible to do less explaining, and just let her figure it out herself through negative consequences - especially when you know the helper told her?  I mean she’s chosen not to see the audiologist right?  She could fix this problem but she doesn’t want to. 
yes she does. Allowing natural consequences to take their course may be the only way to step away from the cycle.

I had to come to terms with this 3 years ago when my mom cancelled home care service for getting her eye drops. She was the one in control.  I knew it would lead to blindness because the ophthalmologist said so. 

You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

I don’t know that you can prevent your mom from spending her way into the poorhouse any more than I could prevent my mom from going blind.

These are their choices for how to live their life, until the system decides to give us authority to protect them from themselves.

“Similarly to your mother, Methuen, it's somehow a deliberate dependency. Maybe it's their fear of abandonment too? If your mother accepted home health- you wouldn't be doing as much as you do? I think what is frustrating is the trying to help someone who won't help themselves and attempts to help don't work with them. What they can't seem to grasp is that- if they were able to accept help and work with us- we'd be involved by choice. “. This

Exactly

BPD mother said something odd to me the other day. When I speak to her, a common story is how someone did something "terrible" to her. The "terrible" thing is questionable- but not unbelievable. Something like someone took something (which was found later) or ruined something of hers or was mean to her.

The other day I called her and I may have woken her up from a nap as she sounded a bit groggy- as if she just woke up. Then she said something terrible happened to her. I said what and she said "that nurse came in and bandaged my leg!!" And then went on about how it was painful it was but it felt better now.

It sounded odd because what the nurse was doing was- providing medical care for her- the nurse was doing something good, not terrible. I didn't say anything back, that's not useful to try to convince her that it wasn't terrible.

My hunch is that this is her "story" and being a bit groggy from just waking up- she started with the "something terrible" and then coudn't think of what would fit the story as well and so came up with the one about the nurse.

It's sometimes difficult to know if what she says is her own perspective or something she made up but this time, it seemed too odd.

Yesterday was the first day of mom’s home care eye drops ( 4x per day).

She called around 6pm “with proof” this wasn’t going to work, because the last person to come didn’t give her all the drops she was supposed to have. H and I were on the call together.

Me: “Did you tell her you needed one more drop?”

Mom: she just left!  And she didn’t even put the book (charting notes) away!

Me: “Did you tell her you needed another drop?

Later, mom in an accusing and authoritative voice: “You never tell me what I’m good at”

We were at a loss for words.  The truth is that she can’t do anything anymore- she doesn’t even get dressed but stays in her PJ’s.

She just couldn’t wait to call us to complain about home care on the first day.  Of course she was mean about it.

So frustrating.

When BPD mother was in the hospital several months ago and determined to be eligible for Hospice, not on the basis of any one condition but by her age and some chronic ones, I thought it was a good idea- as she wasn't being compliant with care (which is how she got to the hospital) and she was also refusing care at the hospital. Being sent home with Hospice had a lot of benefits for he.  It was good for her- so good - that her health improved and she no longer qualified.

So once off Hospice- it was now necessary to find providers for the medical care she needs. While on Hospice, BPD mother was telling people how much she regretted the decision ( she could have discontinued it herself at any time) and that is was the "worst decision she made".

On the first visit with her new nurse provider- she said the same thing but added that she can not believe her daughter, NW (me), suggested it. I didn't suggest it- the hospital staff did and the Hospice coordinator at the time assured me that she had explained it to my mother and my mother agreed to it. After that, the staff also asked me about it and I agreed at the time. I do recall telling my mother that I thought it was a good option for her-(since she didn't have any other ones as she had refused care).

But also at the time, I did worry- is this the right decision as it does limit care- but what was limited was the kind of  care that my mother had refused. There was no other choice and I  was told she agreed to it. I felt a sense of relief that she did well with it.

So when I heard that she had told the nurse that -it was demoralizing. It also wasn't true. This wasn't the first time she had made comments like this. So- like your Mother, Methuen, if she's not pleased with her care and you have been involved in suggesting it, or setting it up- then her upset involves you too.

I haven't spoken to my mother's new nurse providers and they haven't called me. If they did call me, of course I would speak to them but I am not initiating it. I just don't want to have any involvment in something my mother isn't going to be satisfied with.

I think what is frustrating is- your mother needs the eye drops and she needs home care to help with that- for her own good, and then to have your good intentions disregarded is demoralizing.  You've done what you can. Your mother is in control of this. I think you have done all you can to convince her and now- she needs to decide to accept it.

Yesterday we celebrated our Canadian Thanksgiving.  We have out of town family staying with us and both our adult children.  We had invited upd mom with the offer we would pick her up , drive her here, and bring her home when she was ready.  At the last minute, she declined on the phone, saying “you don’t know how hard my life is”.  Then she said “someone can drive a plate” to my house.  To which my husband replied “sure! we’ll bring it over sometime tomorrow.” To which she replied “not today ?” To which he replied “we want to have a drink with our meal but we don’t drink and drive”.  She replied “I don’t give a damn anymore!  I just want to die!”

Meanwhile she had known we were going to watch videos from when our kids were little and she was also in them. She was interested in that and kindbof excited.  So why did she decline?

We are all fatigued by her drama.  We enjoyed a nice Thanksgiving without her.

She also sent a text t to H yesterday saying “just to let you know two or 3 is enough for me.  We can chat.  I’m already exhausted“ ( from home care coming 4x per day to put her eye drops in).  Yesterday was the third day since they started coming to do this service so her blindness doesn’t advance as quickly.

The interesting thing is that the eye drop service wasn’t initiated by us.  It was initiated by home care after her home assessment was recently done.

So this has the potential to get interesting.  This is between her and home care.

Yes, this is between her and home health care. Is there any relief in knowing that you are not directly responsible for how this turns out?

yes and no.  It's complicated.

no because she is still my mother and I can't imagine feeling relief until her physical and emotional pain and suffering is finally over and my responsibilities as her daughter are over as well.  And since her father (who was just like her and worse) lingered to be 97 (and her siblings are lingering in their 90's) , I have to expect this could go on a very long time still, despite her physical and emotional fragility.  What is not fragile, is her "fighting" spirit. That burns fast and strong inside her.  Unless she decides impulsively one day to swallow a whole blister pack of pills.

yes because cognitively I know she's the one driving the bus who has made all the decisions that have led her to where she is now, which is truly pathetic.

Still, we must "deal with her".  Living 5 minutes from her means the drama continues to surround us daily.  She is already inching her way to cancelling the eye drop service and this is only the 4th day.  What will be interesting is how home care responds, since this time they are the ones that initiated the service.  We are bracing ourselves that they will let her cancel and just walk away, since she still has "capacity", and there is "no room at the inn" (assisted living) with a long wait list, many of whose needs are reportedly higher than hers.

So I wouldn't call it relief to know we are not responsible for how this turns out.  We still have to observe it.  It's like waiting for the derailment you know is coming, you just don't know when.  While we know we aren't "responsible" for her situation (including her blindness in one eye and other physical and emotional conditions), it doesn't help us as we are ultimately the ones who are "effectively responsible" for her daily living and must continue to deal with her.

That's the clincher: having to deal with her.  As long as we have to deal with her, any relief we feel feels small by comparison, and temporary.

And ultimately, being an observer to all this feels like torture.

Like NW, we aren't comfortable with going all out no contact.

Although I've gone, LC, and H only sees her once a week except when she has appointments, it's just way too much with all her texts and emails which blame, attack, but more often are designed to manipulate us in ways to perpetuate the caregiving, or alternately make us into mean and horrible people if we don't.

It's the emotional incest piece that is the kicker.  And even though we recognize it, and don't accept what she says at face value, the constant exposure has worn us out completely.

There is relief in knowing that her friends have open eyes, and feel bad for us.  That has been hugely relieving, and helpful to know.

You are dealing with your mother with your eyes wide open. It is like your body and mind are telling you, you can't do this anymore. Sometimes when there is ongoing abuse, the hardest part can be when we realize that we are the target and that the abuse is intentional. There is no more making excuses for the abuse, like some clueless person thoughtlessly saying something like: "Oh, it is not personal, she is just not feeling well". You know your mother deliberately treats you badly, blames you for how she feels. I remember there was a time when it seemed like none of your mothers' friends could see the abuse, so good it is helping that now they do. How do you deal with the constant anxiety and recover more quickly from the latest rounds of abuse?

It seems your biggest worry is that the abuse is never going to end, that your mother will live for many more years.

I am hoping that you and your husband will not drive your mother any place anymore. She could easily refuse to go home and demand to go to your house. There seems to be no new level to which she will stoop, which has got to be causing a lot of emotional turmoil for you.

The emotional incest is so painful and the ongoing repercussions are so many,  often so difficult to put into words. I have just realized that I am way too nice to people who are narcissists like many of my family members, and they get angry with me when I don't say and do what they expect. My new boundary is not to explain anything to these people as the conversations are all one sided, all about their needs with no regard for mine. We are all a work in progress. You have come a long ways.

My BPD mother does this too! I posted before how I organized a family get together, for her- and at the last minute she said she "didn't feel well" and I felt so demoralized. I was the host and did the planning. So I said people will be disappointed to not see you, implying that I would be going.

The rest of the conversation went this way- she said maybe if she feels better, she will call a cab and come over. I said OK if that's what you want to do--
and the next thing she said was "but I can't get into the cab, so maybe I will ask a neighbor to help me get into the cab- if the neighbor is available".

So, she would miss her own party--- and I think she wanted me to stay back with her too with that additional comment. Your situation- you invited your mother to a family get together- at the last minute- she decides she isn't going to attend, and then also has this expectation that you and your H won't either because you are going to bring her her meal.

I wonder if - when people go through more difficutly to do things for them- this somehow translates into feeling a higher value for themselves? Like if you missed your family get together for your mother- that makes her feel more valued?

Yesterday H brought mom her groceries.  While there she started in on her complaining and saying the typical “I want to die “ drama.

Meanwhile, she cancelled several home care visits for her eye drops this week.

H staight up told her that if she cancels her eye drops, he is cancelling his services to help her, including grocery shopping and appointment transports.

Today she texted him that she will keep her drops 4 x a day and stop saying she wants to die. 

Haha

A betting person would play for how long this will last.

I have no idea if she’s been texting me because I blocked her a few days ago after a text where she was wining about going blind.  Really??!!


I’m beyond “done”.

Sometimes when a person is truly done with all the drama from a disordered person, the mind and body take over, the decisions are final and there are no more attempts to placate the disordered person.

I've done the kind of thing your H did. I needed to get something done for my mother and I wanted to do it alone- so I could focus on just that.

She mentioned she'd like to "visit" when I did it (which would make it difficult to get the job done in time). I told her if she didn't let me have some time without distractions, I'd get in the car and leave. She wanted the task done so she didn't interfere. I could visit afterwards.

This was a one time task. With groceries and the drops - that is an ongoing need. I don't know how long your mother will comply but for your H, if he keeps that boundary- and doesn't bring groceries if she cancels her visits, she will learn he means it.

BPD mother also starts out with something drastic. The recent one was "I guess I will just have to go to a nursing home". There's no way. She doesn't want to be in one.  She has qualified before for nursing home care and refused to go.

Yes.  Our T who also happens to be a registered nurse counsels us on this very thing.  Yesterday I asked her for advice on what to tell the emerg doctor when they inform us they will discharge her.  I scrambled to write it down.

My H stated his boundary to mom this week.  Two things: He told her that for him to continue helping her with groceries and taking her to appointments:
1) She must accept the help from home care 4x per day
2) not say things like “I want to die” or “I’m going to kill myself in front of the family “

He recorded the conversation.  It took an hour.  She deflected the entire time.  It’s remarkable to listen to.  I think a psychiatrist would be fascinated.  He did an amazing job. When he asked her the question “who do you blame?” She deflected. He was a broken record.  He must have repeated the question a dozen times.  She never answered it. 

The truth is she’s backed herself into a corner because she can’t survive living in her home without us.  Home health even acknowledged that and said if it wasn’t for our support, she would likely be in hospital within 2 weeks.

The day after H’s big talk with her, she texted him to tell him she would keep getting the drops. 

She can’t live in her home without us. She NEEDS us.

Last weekend she declined joining us for Thanksgiving dinner while her GC grandson was home, and then flipped out when H told her we would deliver her plate “tomorrow”. She wanted it to be delivered when it was hot and fresh which would mean the rest of us could wait and eat it cold after spending all day cooking it.

She was on speakerphone so our adult kis heard her flip out and say she wanted to die.

Last night was our sons last night with us, so we had another family dinner.  We did not invite mom.  Coincidentally, she facetimed H while we were eating.  She was all sweet and making conversation.  The phone got passed around to everyone in he room, so she got to see we were gathered without her.  The sweetness felt fake and disengenuous.  I spoke to H about it later when we were alone and he said absolutely fake.  It felt icky.

I don’t know where all this leaves me.  There was a time I would have driven the plate over to her.  So I guess I’ve detached.  It was my suggestion to NOT invite her for dinner last night. Twenty years ago I could not have imagined needing boundaries like this with my MOTHER.

Toxic people are just a very unfortunate thing.  They bring so much misery to everyone.  It is a very difficult thing to move on and “let go of the rope” (from “the man on the bridge”) with anyone, but a family member…

Now it’s the weekend again, and I feel this obligation to go do a visit.  I really don’t want to…

It sounds like you and your husband have the ball in your court: your mother cannot stay in her home without the help you provide her.
It does not sound safe for you to go visit your mother, as for sure she will be pushing you boundaries and guilt tripping you. Does it really make any sense to visit her? It seems she will be just as unhappy whether you come or not.

I know the feeling of that obligatory pull. If I am a bit ahead of you in the process of detaching, it's been due to the experiences during the time of my father's passing. Prior to that, the plan was to have my parents move closer to me- before I saw what that was involved.

I hope you can give yourself permission to let go of the rope, because your mother landing in the hospital system is exactly where she will get the level of care she needs. You and your H are more than helpful but she needs nursing level care. It won't be as she wants it but it is what she needs. She won't be happy but she won't be happy even if you and your H do her care.

You may feel you are letting go and she is falling off a bridge but it's a soft landing for her into hospital and her needs being met.

Thanks for asking the question. You are correct that it makes no logical "sense" to visit her.  Yes, she will be miserable whether I visit or not.  I know she has psychologically trained me to feel bad and believe I am bad, if I'm not looking after her.  Unlearning that... is like unlearning emotions, which is a hard thing to do after 60 + years.

Today I am staying home.  One day at a time.

Thank you for this.

It's hard, Methuen. We are raised to feel obligated to them and in a way, we want to be, because this would be a "normal" relationship- and I think that is something we wish for. The difficult reality is that our mother's don't recognize boundaries and their emotional needs are extensive.

If your mother's needs are being taken care of- you can still visit and spend time with her to the extent you feel you are willing to do that.

Late yesterday my H received a flurry of text messages from mom.  The series was demanding, desperate and guilt ridden, all from waify victim perspective. 

Last night one of her friends called to tell us that mom is distressed about us going away in two weeks.  We’ll be leaving the country.  Her GC grandson is traveling with us, as are two more family members (mom’s niece).  The friend is having her eyes opened with mom’s behavior, and has said a number of times how sad she feels for us in this situation.

She had an idea she wanted to share.  She was wondering if my mom could go into respite while we were out of the country. My H promptly told her that had been offered to her by the nurse who did the RAI assessment in her home ( a few weeks ago). Mom angrily replied “I’m not going there “ so the nurse just objectively went on to the next part of the assessment.

Mom’s friend couldn’t believe it.  I pointed out that by refusing, mom keeps her helping friends ( in their 70’s 80’s and 90’s) coming to her. 

She replied “well that’s right “!

This particular helper friend has driven her to eye appointments in the past.  Mom has another set of macular degeneration shots while we are away.  Despite what we just told her about mom refusing respite, she instantly said she would change her own appointment so she could take mom for her eye shots.  We repeatedly told her she shouldn’t do that, but she felt the obligation too strongly.

Mom has cultivated a team of rescuers.

Meanwhile, before our last trip, mom secretly stopped taking her heart medication, and ended up in emergency with symptoms.  I have a strong feeling of “knowing “ that in the next two weeks leading up to our departure, she is going to try to sabotage our trip.  It’s a pattern over 20 years since my dad died.  I’m actually not catastrophising here.

I haven’t seen her in 2 weeks since before she said she was too tired to come for Thanksgiving dinner.  I think we are going to go visit today because I feel ghosting her will do more harm than good. 

My strategy is to bring her a meal and pretend nothing is going on.  And stay grey rock.

Any thoughts or suggestions?  I’m all ears as I consider going into the lions den.  She is used to short visits on the weekend so just ghosting her won’t help her anxiety or sense of abandonment before we go away.

It’s always a dilemma with her. I value any ideas or thoughts you could share.

Do you think your mother's friend decided to tell you this or did your mother put her up to it? My BPD mother will put people up to saying things - I've had phone calls which sound contrived- "I just wanted to let you know that your mother is a wonderful person" type calls or telling me to do something. My mother has done this too saying things like "it's your (relative who was estranged from me)'s  birthday and I know he'd really love to speak to you", as there's some motive behind this and I don't know.

Regardless, as far as you are concerned, you don't know anything unless your mother tells you directly, not through triangulation. Acting like you don't know feels like pushing the boundaries of our own ethics- this is our mother right? So not telling her information doesn't feel quite right, but I try to take a longer range perspective. Your mother is responsible for telling you what she wants you to know. If you do that job for her, it's enabling. What other people tell you is hearsay.

I agree, ghosting her is a big change and likely to increase her anxiety. I don't think it's your overall intention. Your goal is to have her medical care and basic needs taken care of, not to ghost her. Even if she were in a nursing home, you'd probably visit and bring her meals and treats sometimes as a break from the regular food. So, I'd carry on with that and have a grey rock but cheery and casual (short) visit and don't react to any drama.

Yes, a medical crisis is possible. It's happened with my BPD mother too. It's not something you can control. I think it helps to consider what you would do if she did that. First- she is being taken care of by the medical staff. If she's in the hospital, she's in a safe place, where she is getting meals and medicine and she is not alone. She may not be happy but she is in the best situation for her at the moment.

This reminds me of a "crisis" involving my father. I was at their house to "help" but my father was in the hospital. He was being taken care of. I was home alone with BPD mother - and her needs. I had been there a while, and had to arrange child care for my kids. I needed to get back home, so when Dad was stable enough to come home, I left. As soon as I got home, BPD mother called in a panic. "Your father is in terrible condition" and saying I needed to come see him quickly. Fearing the worst, I went back.

When I got there, my mother had called the home health nurse and she was on her way. Dad had an infection from a surgery wound, but he wasn't in terrible condition. The nurse came in, assessed the situation, and arranged for him to be readmitted. There wasn't anything I needed to do for him- it was all being done.

I realized then, that the calling me with a "medical crisis" was a way to get me there and it was about  BPD mother's emotional needs, not Dad's needs. I couldn't just leave at any moment- with the kids being left whenever. If there was a medical crisis, the medical providers handled it best.

We don't want to experience our parents thinking we are bad daughters. But I think for me, I just had to recognize that this is the way it is- if I don't do what they expect or want me to do, for whatever reason, they will think that of me. I can do what I am willing to do, but it isn't adequate for them.

It's the same dilemma the daughter in the Slate article faced. To my mother, I guess I am a terrible daughter.

But I don't believe I am a terrible person and you aren't either.

I am wondering why you told your mother about your trip ahead of time. I have learned to give as little as information as possible to my disordered family members because they use the information to make trouble for me. My sister with NPD is always trying to find out when I will be at my house or not be there, and has enlisted several flying monkeys to find out my schedule. I have made it clear that I will not tell them. Before nobody ever asked when I was going to be in town/out of town.

It is possible to lie to your mother and tell her you have canceled your trip? I don't like lying to people and it is often the lying/omission of information about my life that limits how much abuse I deal with from my disordered family members.

I'm not proud of this but I do this too. Mostly the omission. Where I feel badly about it is when I also don't share information with her family members and sometimes not with anyone, even if they are trustworthy. Even though her FOO has reconcilled with me and also is frustrated with her,  BPD mother has a way of eliciting information from people. So if I want to have information be confidential I don't share it at all.

Thankfully, this friend of mom is not a flying monkey.  We trust her.  She is recognizing that mom is "using" her too, and actually called us to explain herself:  She is mom's housekeeper.  Mom cancelled her housekeeping last week (I think she might have an addiction to "cancelling").  Then a few days later, she called her housekeeper because she needed her.  The housekeeper holds her boundaries, and said no, because she's on a schedule and has other clients.  She can't just "change her schedule".  And, she does have her own life.  She was afraid we were thinking she wasn't being helpful to mom and wanted to clarify why she didn't go to mom.  This has happened a number of times in the last 6 months.  

Mom does the same thing with her bath assist.  Unfortunately, the housekeeper told us last night that the "bath assist" lady is buying some of mom's stories/lies including those about us.  The bath assist lady has a very strong personal value to "supporting family", so she probably is not understanding the underlying issue, as she thinks mom is "sweet".  She believes that family should take elders into their home and look after them.  Nevertheless, she did tell mom last week that assisted living would be a good move. So hopefully she sees at least a "little bit" of what is going on.  This information is from the housekeeper, who genuinely seems to be a kind person.

Gotta love a small town - the housekeeper and the bath assist lady actually know each other and are friendly in their private life.  The housekeeper is a good hearted kind person who has made it clear to us she will not be manipulated by mom.  This is helpful, as maybe she will share another perspective with the bath assist lady (who could be judgy), although this is not her responsibility, and we wouldn't expect her to.

H and I agree we don't care what the bath lady thinks.

This is a very good question, and actually made me laugh a little.

We took a different tactic, and told her the first day we got back from the same trip a year ago, and we let her know we were going with her niece this time (the only family member from her clan that H and I enjoy).  We gave her lotttssssss of time.  When we get back from these trips she is always happy and tells us "we can take as many trips as we want".

But I hear you.  

Right now I'm thinking we won't tell her about the next trip until we have already left.

I guess we haven't done this earlier because it just doesn't feel right to do that with a "mother". It's hard to get to a place where you have to do those kinds of things - especially in a small town where everybody knows everybody.  People just aren't going to understand that generally.  Also, a year ago, we just couldn't foresee how badly the situation would deteriorate.

I so envy the people who write their loved one "passed away peacefully surrounded by family" in the obituaries.  My mom is going to go out with a spectacular crash - peaceful isn't the word that comes to mind...

I think mom's housekeeper was trying to give us a solution for mom and be helpful to us - as she presented the idea of booking her into a respite room for the 2 weeks we are away.  Mom would never suggest that.
I do this too.  People know that I work.  They do NOT know I have changed jobs.  Nor do they know I work part time.  I lie low on the days I don't work, and don't go to  town where anyone in her circle could see me. 

It's not a great way to live.  I'm like a bird in a cage - with the door open.  I can come and go, but I feel safest in my cage on the days I'm not working (but everyone thinks I am).  Not an easy "omission" to keep - in a small town. It limits what I can do.

Mom doesn't know a thing about my private life any more.  It's ok because she's not interested.  The only thing she wants to do during a visit is complain, and soak in her pity party until we say we have to go. Changing the topic works for a while, but her brain and personality always bring it back to HER.  It's exhausting and nauseating.  Occasionally she can rage. 

I finished making her supper for today.  It's delicious.  Anytime I bring her food, she complains about it.  LOL

Yes, I don't know what else to do, but bring her a meal (it occasionally disarms her), and grey rock.  My H will come with me.  If I feel the emotions coming up, we will find an excuse to leave.  By then, she will have her supper.
Exactly.  In their mind, we are terrible daughters.  The hard part is not feeling awful that's what they think and feel about us. :(

My logical brain knows that well.  Retraining my emotional brain to not change MY behavior to "fix" her problem - that's a journey I'm still on.  Lots of progress made, but not at the finish line yet. 

We once cancelled a trip (back in 2015) because of one of her "health crises".  It seemed like the right thing to do.  Eventually, like your story with your dad when he came home from hospital, we figured out the crisis wasn't that big, and she was in Dr care.  But she got us all to stay home - doting on her (back then).  That was such a gigantic mistake, made because we are good people who care, and got sucked in.  Sigh.

Me too, Methuen, and if she's distressed over something, to not fix it is an uncomfortable feeling. I think it's so ingrained for us. We've been doing this probably since we were able to.

I think teens doing chores is a reasonable thing, but there was more to this. It seems as if my doing things for her is the foundation of our relationship. Even after I left for college, coming home on breaks - it was me doing things. Now, if we tell her we are visiting her first statement is "oh good, I have things for you to do".

Even with her finances now. She calls me up to "go over her bank statements" even though she can see them on her phone app. I downloaded them and enlarged the print so she could see it and emailed it to her. I can access her email and do so to look for important notices and bills since she doesn't keep up with them. I can see she hasn't even opened the email I sent her.

I gave some information to her helper to go over with her. The helper said she did and that my mother wrote the information down. Then BPD mother called me and told me the helper didn't do that and she wants me to go over it with her.

She doesn't want the information- she already has it. She wants me to do the task of "going over it with her" slowly and meticulously over the phone with her- for the sake of me doing a task for her while she controls it "I can't hear you- can you say this again" "don't speak so fast" "say that again". She called me and asked me to do it on another day and I had trouble sleeping that night. Not sure why but if she asks me to do something- there's this creepy obligation feeling.

I'm glad for you that your mother's housekeeper sees a bigger picture. It does feel better when people understand and don't judge you.

Update: she was happy for the dinner I brought her, and happier for the chocolate treats.

I think it disarmed her…

The visit went ok.  When I sensed she was starting down a wrong path, I used humour to point out she needed the help and if she didn’t like one of the home care helpers she was going to have to just suck it up.

H thinks she behaved better because of the ultimatum he gave her. 

At any rate, today I got the better version and not the borderline version.  Unbelievable relief…

It feels uncomfortable to do this but my BPD mother also responds to ultimatums. Still, if she's being "nice" to me, it feels uneasy, as I also know she can become angry too.  I also question my own reality- maybe it isn't as I think it is?

Oddly, when BPD mother is not acting nice to me, it feels more genuine.

Sometimes though, we want to have a no drama moment. I am glad your mother appreciated the meal you brought her and it went well.