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Hi all,

I understand that my dbpdw is chasing a reality that doesn’t exist, that if she will be permanently dissatisfied then so it will be.

However, I guess I’m not the romantic type (that is, since giving up my whole life and moving to the other side of the world to be with her). I am more into saving money, especially when we have none. I am too aware of the practical issues which would make anything a bad idea.

We have three small children and my wife is heavily pregnant with our 4th.

My wife doesn’t like flowers because they attract bees, but even in the winter she tends to say they are a waste of money. It’s hard to plan anything when we nearly always have little ones to look after.

Anyway I’m being told to be more romantic. Any ideas? Or how to respond when she says she doesn’t feel special/loved/wanted/supported/desired?

You know this is her feelings. Feelings aren't facts but to someone with BPD they feel like they are.

What is the magic "romantic" gesture that will actually change her feelings? You know the answer to that.

You know we can not change how someone thinks and feels.

That being said- it is said that people have a "love language" and so may experience being loved in different ways. If you are showing love in a way that isn't received by the other person- they may not perceive it as you intended it to, but they also need to be able to perceive it at all for your gestures to be effective.

How to respond to when your wife says she feels unloved? Like you respond to her feelings in general. Validate the feelings, (not the invalid) and don't JADE. "It must be hard to feel unloved. How can I help?" and then see what she says and if it can be reasonably done. If not, say "I wish I could do that but we can't afford it- is there something we can afford"?

At later stages of pregnancy- this can be physically uncomfortable. There's a lot of weight to carry around. Also, having a big belly- one doesn't feel attractive at the moment- even if it's for a wonderful reason. So perhaps some more affirmation that you think she's beautiful might help. If she likes a kind of bath salts, or hand cream- just little things like that might be caring gestures. However, she's going to feel what she feels.

Here is another perspective. Are you reinforcing this complaint that you aren't romantic enough? Because if each time she says it- you try harder to be "romantic"- well that's working for her right?

When there doesn't seem to be enough of a "solution" to a problem, maybe it's because the process of attempting to solve is the positive reinforcement. If the actual problem were solved, then, the attempts would have worked.

There are two ways to frame this. One is to "get your wife to see the light" that you do love her, that you do things for her, but you can not control how she feels and perceives things. You can't do this- no matter what you do that is "romantic".

The other way is to hold on to your truth- that you are being as romantic as you can be- making the effort- and that is the best you can do- no matter how your wife sees it.

Also, even if you do make a romantic gesture- the next time she feels you are not romantic enough- whatever you did before isn't relevant. To bring up "I got you a gift last week" is JADE. It's invalidating. Last week was last week.

Another response would be "It must be hard to feel that way, could you tell me more about how you feel?". Now get ready for the word vomit, the list of how terrible you are and what you didn't do for her but - hold on to your truth. This is feeling vomit and like a little kid with a stomach ache- they throw up and then they feel better. So maybe your wife needs to "feeling vomit" every so often. You don't have to sit there and take it indefinitely but after a while, say "I hear you" don't react, don't JADE, and don't let it get to you.

I highly recommend the book The Five Love Languages. It was so helpful to identify mine and my husband's love languages and talk about it. Both of us need Physical Touch. He is a servant leader and needs to hear Words of Affirmation. He does so much for me, and I try to stay conscious of telling him how appreciative I am. My love language is also Gift Giving, both giving gifts and receiving them. He grew up economically challenged and has difficulty with gifts, especially receiving. We make adjustments.

Hi TP -

I can feel how difficult all of this is on you… all of these constant demands and challenges.  I am so sorry.  And I’m also sure that you’re wanting to somehow feel loved, by your wife.  I’m sure your beautiful children give their whole hearts to you in every way they can.  Yet the love of your children is not the same as feeling the love and full embrace from your wife.  I hope she can give you that one day soon.

All of that aside, maybe there are a few things you can consider or try?  I’m sorry I don’t know how to link, but I found a paper from Cornell Health titled “Sensate Focus”.  It’s very interesting and a good read that can perhaps be shared with your wife.  It’s about *sensual* touch vs sexual touch.  I’m in a pretty new relationship, and I’m older (66). 

Due to two very major surgeries in the last two years, I felt and often still feel I don’t own my skin or know my now misshapen body.  The new man in my life (who I actually met as a teenager but hadn’t seen in nearly 50 years) has been a Godsend; and so gently does whatever I need to feel more comfortable with these huge scars and this changed body of mine.  I do the same for him.  We just laugh through it all.  He’s a cancer survivor, so we both have our super fun insecurities.

I hope this doesn’t sound too silly.  Another thing to perhaps consider (yep, I’m this ridiculous eternal optimist…) … maybe think back on the things she liked when you first got together.  For example, did she enjoy her hair being brushed or washed?  With her being very pregnant, they have those shower chairs (inexpensive yet sturdy and quite comfortable).  You can maybe combine that with an inexpensive handheld shower head  - and wash and condition her hair for her. 

And who knows… in time she may return the kindness.  It’s loving, relaxing and feels great.  At least for those of us who like that kind of thing. And something you can engage in after the children are off to sleep. I find that hair washing…actually anything to do with touching of my hair or scalp to be very sensual / romantic.  Maybe your wife will, too?

So many hugs to you, TP.

Warmly,
Gems

Thank you all. Not Wendy, the word vomit made me laugh, though I often ask direct questions about how I can help or what she might prefer me to say or do… which are often met with an angry, “You should know what I like by now!!!” lol. I do now realise that when my wife literally refuses to express what she wants then it somehow means she doesn’t actually know (though she still thinks I should know).I generally try to give these conversations as little attention as possible, though I know validation is important. I actually asked her about the bath idea earlier today, as I used to run her baths in previous pregnancy, but she told me she feels too big to get in the bath this time (we are in a different house). So glad I didn’t spring that surprise on her as she says she loves surprises but in my experience she doesn’t because I’m usually told I have been unthoughtful or whatever.

Gagrl, I will look into the love languages. Sex is her love language but affection is mine, but she withholds affection due to claiming I don’t turn her on (with words not actions). She loves very expensive things and it’s like, if I get her perfume she’d be like, “I wish you could buy me a new car!” And if I could afford a car she’d probably want a house and if I could afford a house she’d probably want an island… you get the picture.

Gems for eyes, I will look up sensate focus. I’m so glad your partner is treating you well. I have had a double mastectomy and my wife has always been very supportive of my body changes, but I don’t feel that attractive though I never have really.

I know my wife likes her hair being brushed and played with though I’d have to do this when she felt it was clean so I’ll think about that. She used to be a hairdresser and I don’t think she’d want me washing it though and I’m sure I’d get it wrong haha.

Hi Thankful person,

I haven't read your full story yet, but just wanted to respond to your question about how to bring more romance into the relationship.

The five love languages is definitely a good thing to look into. You can even do some fun quizzes online together.

I did some study under Diane Poole Heller, who is a renowned attachment expert, and she talked a lot about the small romantic gestures being incredibly helpful in terms of creating a more secure attachment and sense of closeness. Small things like always kissing/hugging someone when they leave or when they arrive, regular messages that you say something along the lines of 'you're my girl/woman, I adore you', holiding her hand for a few minutes as you drive, or other small gestures that show her you're thinking of her in that moment, and ideally they are done consistently so that she can rely on them. So she knows that even when there are hard moments, she is still loved.

I 100% agree with these comments.   Especially Notwendy and GagaGirl’s comments.

Pregnancy = weird emotions that become irrational.  Sometimes as guys we just have to ride it out.  However being proactive and each taking a quick free online test on the five love languages together could be romantic  (google it) is really helpful so that you don’t wast energy on the wrong thing.

Time, Touch, Gifts, Words of Affirmation, Acts of Service.  I personally care nothing for gifts - so if someone is giving me gifts it is meh.  Time playing cards together, going on a walk, or discussing something makes me feel loved - that and physical affection - a rub on the neck, on the scalp, arm, back, or leg.  My wife - it is words of affirmation- saying “I appreciate it when you did…” or “I saw when you…” or “it makes me feel good when you..”. And physical “long hugs” work for her.  So take the test together is my recommendation for your next romantic gesture.

And for the record “you should know by now” is an emotional abuse phrase - be careful and google “what are examples of emotional abuse” to educate yourself…

Seeking the way, this is most interesting, you know how pwbpd’s make you lose your grip on reality.. I would love to do all the little romantic gestures like hugs, kisses, holding hands, “I love you”s. My wife doesn’t want any of it, she wants a good sex life and me to turn her on with words not actions and I fall short every time. But you’ve made me feel better cos it’s like, hang on which one of us isn’t romantic…

Outdoor enthusiast, how is one suggested to respond to, “you should know this by now?” Another thing she says sometimes when I’m trying to understand her thoughts and feelings is, “Do you really want to go there?” As in, yes I will tell you everything you’ve ever done wrong, it may take a while…

Ooof - I have been on the receiving end of both.  I guess the short version is S.E.T. and then a healthy boundary.

SET For me maybe something like “I hear that you feel I should know already and I do want to know and that feels very frustrating for you.  I care about you and I want to make sure that I am sharing my love in a way that feels meaningful to you. It hurts my feelings when I try and fail and you get angry with me when all I am asking for is help in communicating my love in a way that makes you feel loved. Can you help me understand so that I can get better at it?”

Then maybe a boundary “If this is too difficult and frustrating for you right now, maybe we can take a break for x time and come back again to discuss it because I feel that we should respect both of our feelings on this subject.”

Whatever it is - validate the frustration and empathize that it is hard on her.  Remind her of the truth - you do care - but you aren’t a mind reader, a woman, or her - and it may take many repetitions to ensure that you can communicate effectively.  The alternative is to not ask - which may frustrate her even more. 

If she threatens to drag up every failure of yours - this is also not fair fighting and is also emotional abuse.  Nobody is perfect - that is an unattainable standard.  Nobody can be successful or happy or look forward to a prosperous future if every mistake they have ever made is continually pulled up in disagreements.  This is unhealthy.

Maybe others have better ideas - I am far from perfect on this.

Outdoor

I'd be careful with this  *)  Using the popular Internet definitions, everyone can makes a case that their partner is emotionally abusing them at one time or another. A significant number of high schoolers can (and do) claim to have PTSD.

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1. The first question to ask is "is she exhibiting pathological behavior" or is this just the same request that most wives make to their husbands from time to time? 2. The second question is what little things make her feel special? 3. I'd start there (small) and not make any announcements that you are being romantic. Just do it. Do something sentimental for the next special day (birthday, holiday, anniversary)

While the core question remains the same -- concrete ways to improve romance in a challenging relationship -- it is important to note that there may be unique differences for female-female relationships (as here), vs male-male, vs male-female relationships. Hope this is a helpful FYI!