BPDFamily.com

Hi again,
I've been travelling for about a month so haven't had the opportunity to check in here.

Wondering if anyone has a BPD adult child that, when they rage, can't be talked down.  Mine insults me...tells me I'm terrible, everyone feels sorry that I'm her mom, that I don't want her around or that I don't care and that I never listen.  She wants me to repeat to her what she's said to prove I've listened but not matter what I say - even if it's verbatim, she'll say I'm not right, I don't get it and I wasn't listening which just shows her I don't care.

I'm exhausted with the insults and with the rage and what feels like baby'ing her (even though I know I'm not...that she is truly in pain).  I try to calm (stay calm and talk calm). I try to reassure and validate her statements (I know it feels like I'm not listening. I am...  this is what I heard...) and repeat back (it's always wrong even when it's not) and ask what she needs (which she always says she just spent the last 30 minutes telling me "in detail" (which she hasn't). 

Tonight it only ended when she hung up on me because she was done with me and I apparently don't care.

This is a loop for us. Any suggestions for how I can stop the cycle of this conversation?

Hi AlwaysAnxious,

Am I right. Your dd is outright chastising you like a child and making you repeat what she has said....word for word???? This is completely unacceptable behaviour, and time to apply some firm boundaries.
If your dd wont allow you to speak or tries to speaks over you,  I would give a gentle warning at first something like" I cannot continue to speak to you when you are shouting at me/ screaming at me/calling me names" and then I would end the call and if she calls you back still doing the same thing I would end that  call too. It is also ok not to answer her calls if she continues to be abusive towards you.  if she were in my home doing those things I would say something like " If you continue use  foul language/bad behaviour in my home you can leave" That way it gives her a choice. She can either do as you ask and respect you and change her behaviour or your communication with her ends.
I understand that you are trying to remain empathic towards your dd but this in beyond the pale and in the meantime she is tearing down your mental health. You have to start somewhere and it will be difficult for both of you at first to implement these changes especially as someone with bpd often struggle with change but you have to break this cycle of abuse.

hmmm...i cannot say it is "rage" (well...sadly, my pw BPD does not talk to me at all...so, there's that; however, when she did, it was this TWISTED conversation that changed of the "blue", the very last full conversation, I went to her apartment, as requested to help HER, said I liked a sweater, maybe I could borrow it (only b/c she kept asking if I wanted to borrow stuff) BPD said, "oh, I see...you are doing me a favor and want something in return (NO!) (it was like the entire atmosphere changed, like you could FEEL it", than BPD starts singing the Taylor Swift "it's me, I'm the problem" song...says, to me..."you are the reason I am like this"...I literally felt like i was going to faint!  goes on to say, it is because I worked so much (true! I still do!) when she was a child & I was not "present", well...I have since learned NOT to argue, however, I said, "I am sorry you feel that way" than remembered I should "circle" around arguing, I said, "it seems like you are having a hard day, I am going to leave & we can "re-visit" this...she said, "run away, that is what you do best"; I cried the whole way home; that was the very last REAL conversation, b/c after that BPD said she would reach out when she was ready to talk; anyway...I guess it is not rage, just so much ANGER, and PAIN...I feel terrible for her, but have stepped back, b/c I am just (always) waiting!

@js friend, Oh, if only it were that simple. I am not the OP, but feel compelled to respond. With the total black and white thinking, I am either my daughter's savior and the only person in the world who loves her "no matter what," or I am the cause of all of her problems and I don't care about her at all. When everything is white, she has no memory of what she said when everything was black. There are no shades of gray.

I actually am the only person she has right now who loves her "no matter what" and if I kick her out, she has nowhere to go, no friends, etc. I predict that she'd take her own life in very short order if I did that. Every situation is different, and some of us have to be very careful about how we go about setting boundaries. Right now, I'm happy if she isn't throwing things and breaking up the house.  The rages used to be daily, and now they are approximately weekly. I consider that progress.

Hi Anxious,

The raging of someone with BPD often seems out of control and misguided, doesn't it?  Alas, I think that the rage is often misunderstood and typically misguided.  When your daughter rages, is she blaming others for her own situation and/or poor choices?  Is she blaming you for her awful childhood, for a seemingly endless laundry list of ancient slights?  Even after you attempt to empathize, and apologize, is it never enough?  Have you had the same conversation, going in circles, going nowhere positive, with no resolution?  Does she seem stuck in a negative thinking rut?  Is she constantly looking backwards, re-living negative events from years ago, rather than dealing with the present or looking forward?  I think that reflects her pervasive negativity, as well as her victim attitude.  You see, for as long as she's a victim, she believes everyone else has to change, not her.  In a way, by drawing you into her seemingly endless rants, she's getting your attention--she's getting something by acting this way, even though it's misguided, and it doesn't make her feel any better, except maybe for a fleeting moment by unleashing her anger onto you.  Basically, when she's raging, her thought processes go haywire, and she can't listen or think logically, let alone solve problems or make plans.

In a way, your daughter is like a toddler who cries out, even though all her physical needs have been taken care of.  She hasn't learned to self-soothe.  In essence, she's having an adult tantrum.  I find that adult tantrums are typically in response to a current stressor--feeling inadequate, stressed, overwhelmed, disappointed, left out, incapable, envious, jealous--and she just can't handle admitting that she's having trouble with adult situations, so she dredges up past grievances as a coping tactic.  I find that re-living childhood grievances is a form of avoidance and procrastination!  Her stories of ABUSE are an EXCUSE!
 She's ruminated so much about the past that it's bizarrely comforting for her to rehash the familiar thought process rather than deal with a current issue.  You ask, why is your daughter never satisfied, even if you apologize and repeat back her grievances (verbatim, and on command), to prove that you've listened and understood her?  I'd say, it's because what she's raging about isn't her real issue!  She's never satisfied, because she doesn't really understand where her feelings are coming from in the first place.  She's hiding from her real issues, and she's dredging up stuff from childhood as an avoidance tactic, because confronting her real issues is too hard and too scary.

You see, she likely creates stories of past "abuses" to cement her status as victim, so that she can convince others to over-function for her, perhaps by giving her money, providing housing, completing her paperwork, exempting her from working, etc.  Do you feel that you are "coddling" her, maybe protecting her from full adulthood?  Then her tactics are working splendidly, even if they don't make her feel much better.  In fact, she probably RESENTS you for making her feel so dependent.  This is typical BPD in my opinion.

Do you know what I find is the best way to handle an adult tantrum?  Enforce an adult time-out.  If she's not listening to you, her brain can't process things logically when she's raging.  So I'd advise that you withdraw in silence, without JADEing.  (JADE stands for Justify, Argue, Defend and Explain, and that's what you should avoid when she's raging.)  You could leave the room quietly.  Give her time and space to calm down.

One tactic I employ when a conversation gets intense is a three-strikes rule.  When nerves start to get frazzled, I'll say something like, "This conversation is stressing me out, so let's change the topic."  If she says, "Yes, but . . ."  I'll interject, "We're not getting anywhere by re-hashing this, so if you continue, I'll hang up."  And if she continues once again, I'll say, "Bye now."  That way, she has a choice:  she changes her tune, or the conversation ends.  She gets time and space to calm down, and I'm not sucked into a rage session.  Most times, I do this to protect my own mood, so that a negative conversation doesn't ruin my day.

I wish you peace.

@CC43, I love your response. The only part of that that simply does not work in my own situation with my daughter is leaving the room, i.e. for me to take a time out to let my dd (dear daughter) calm down. If I leave the room, I am abandoning her when she needs me most (in her eyes). I distance myself, but stay close enough to not be called out for "leaving." I am out of sight, but not out of earshot. She can still talk to me, and I can respond if needed. She knows I am still there. I'm not sure what's best, but that's what works best for us right now. I'm still learning every day, reading everything I can get my hands on. What I AM learning is that every BP is unique, and what works for one may not work for another.

Wow. Thank you everyone.  I read this and realize how similar, yet different, our situations all are and I appreciate the empathetic ears, comments and all the ideas to try.

I feel like if she knew or acknowledge she has cluster B/BPD traits, then this might be easier....I don't know, but similar to others, I am the only one with the patience and understanding (and knowledge...she's high functioning) to "put up" with this.  I try to understand her pain and be empathetic. I try to validate, ask questions, define my role but in the end...  it's me that gets the abusive and hurtful words yelled at her. 

Also, much of the time, we're in my car when rages hit so I can't just leave her and when I do have opportunity to leave (or hang up), she says I'm abandoning her, don't love her, terrible mom, etc. and will call me and anyone else she can, to reach me, over and over.  She did this while I was on vacation in another country and woke up the entire room for a couple of hours.

That being said, I do like the idea of choices (I try this but often I am exasperated to the point where I don't feel like -I- have a choice or I've been holding back tears and am being accused of "playing the victim") so I think I need to be mindful to draw the line sooner.  I also like distance rather than leaving - maybe if I'm out of sight but not out of conversation range, she will understand the distance is a shield from her mean words (but I get in that moment it means nothing).

So, thank you.  I appreciate all of your help.

Hey Pokey,

I agree with you!  If you distance yourself while she's still raging, in essence, you're not engaging with her directly and feeding the fire of her ire.  In fact, I love that you're still within earshot, and able to intercede if necessary--she knows this, and it must feel calming.  I liken it to standing outside a crying baby's bedroom door, maybe saying gently, "Go night-night," to remind the baby that you're still there, but that it's not time for rocking or holding anymore, in the hopes that the baby eventually settles and goes to sleep.  If you can't get any physical distance (say, if you're driving together in a car), what I do is try to act like a gray rock.  (This is called gray-rocking.)  You don't engage, JADE or say much at all; you're as still and interesting as a gray rock (but steady nonetheless).  If you're not engaging, her yelling and screaming loses the desired effect, and she might calm down.  I've actually tried the gray rock approach with some success.  And if I go to another room and she follows me looking for me to engage, then I might say something like, "Gotta check the laundry," and I'll exit again.  This has also been successful for me, in terms of lowering the temperature of the discussion and enforcing a "time out."