BPDFamily.com

Hello To all members,

I wish that I'd come across this site and forum a few months back when this whole process had just begun, but better late than never.

To make a long story (as) short (as possible).
My wife of 11 years comes from a family history of anxiety, paranoia, and diagnosed PTSD. As a child she had incidents which left her with strong feelings of abandonement. Basically all of the signs of BPD are present by her, though it primarily only affects her behavior in the context of marriage (and now divorce). Though she has a notorious reputation for being rigid and tough. I never once told her over the course of the marriage that I think she has BPD, as words that are said can never be taken back, and it would only cause more damage than good.

About 6 months ago I came to the conclusion that my marriage could no longer continue the way it's been and informed my wife that changes would have to be made in the dynamics of our marriage. She only heard DIVORCE. Her family isn't so emotionally healthy and have been backing her and providing endless support along the way. I have since been labeled by them as a "Narcisstic Psychopath", and needless to say that anything I do or don't do, is immediately held againts me. I exerted great efforts not to react to many provocative incidents, which only further corroborated the diagnosis of a Psychopath, as I clearly have no feelings.

These have a very been long and hard 6 months, after 3 months or so, I finally came to terms that there was no way in the world to save the marriage and moved out to a place nearby. We have 4 kids together ranging from 3-10, the youngest is handicapped with a complicated medical condition. The 3 oldest kids followed me, and I invested great effort to set up a place that they would want to call home. The youngest was not physically able to come, and my wife wouldn't let me see her for the next month in a half. My wife immediately filed for temporary custody rights, and after a month-in-half of back and forth the court ruled that the kids would come to me Mon, Wed, and every other weekend from Fri afternoon to Sun morning.

My wife told my kids that I only wanted them twice a week, this from the lighter things that my kids have been told about me by my wife or her parents, needless to say, it seems that they know the truth.

Sorry for being so lengthy, I'll try and get to the point now.

There is a small chance that we will be able to reach a divorce agreement through mediation and avoid court, the lawyers have been in touch over the last few weeks. She has made ridiculous demands both financially and regarding the kids. As a father who loves his kids more than anything else, I would like to be an equal partner in all future decisions, and that should be the baseline for the agreement. In regards to my youngest daughter, I always took care of all the technical and beaurocratic issues regarding her medical care.  Now she wants autonomy over some of these issues, or will agree to write "joint decisions" which I know hold no water. As well in regards to me, she has made demands to limit my ability to travel, to pay her a high "fee" for every time I travel and leave the kids by her (which a preuquisite for me being able to travel) etc...

My question(s) are as follows.
After divorcing someone with BPD, and having joint-custody, how much is the conflict expected to continue? My goal with mediation is to end conflict and allow my children the ability to start recovery from the hell that they've been put through. But every visit has potential for strife, if she won't give my daughter's their winter coat (which I bought but was left by her house), until they bring back their sneakers (which she bought, but they wore them that morning when they left to school), and mediation won't help anything.

Which makes me want to just throw in the towel and say "heck with it", let her decide everything, agree to what she writes in the mediation agreement (I'm told that much of the practical stuff can't be enforced to easily...) and try to bargain for a normal financial settlement, whatever's possible.

I hope that my dillema is clear, if not ask any questions and I will elaborate.

Thanks in advance for this wonderful forum.

Excellent decision.  That information coming from you would be quite triggering.


Also good.  You very nearly have a 50/50 parenting time order known as a 2-2-3 (or 2-2-5-5 across two weeks) schedule which is seen as preferable for younger children.  I didn't get that much until after my two year divorce.  Neither the court or the lawyers cared about changing the "temporary" order.

Your ex is predictably blaming, blame-shifting, in denial and obstructing.   This is typical for our sort of (acting-out) PD cases.  As much as you feel you want to dump it all on her and hand over money, the reality to always remember is that your kids need you.  After all, you're the reasonably normal parent and you can set a fine example for them during the time they are with you on your parenting time.


She can fuss and fume all she wants, but as long as you don't agree then either she starts negotiating or the case will end up being decided - eventually - by the court.  Don't let every demand and insult cause you repeated angst.  She will do what she will do and you simply remain calm.  Eventually - and it may take quite a while - the professionals around family court will discern who is the source of the conflict and who is proposing reasonable solutions.


Reality check:  Court assumes all parents are reasonably normal adults and assumes the emotions will calm quickly.  Not so for most here.  Yes, it should lessen but not by much.  It is estimated 10-15% of divorces involve an acting-out Personality Disorder.

For most of us mediation (an early step in the divorce process) failed.  That's okay, our ex-spouses are too entitled and too wrapped up in the emotions of the changes for them to negotiate.  (As a general comment, if your mediation should succeed, then you've likely Gifted Away far too much of your custody or parenting.  Once gone, it's very hard to get it back.)

My divorce took three times longer than my lawyer estimated.  It ended only when Trial Day arrived and we settled on the metaphorical court house steps.  She didn't like it of course but we settled in two hours what couldn't be accomplished in two years.  (She had no incentive to settle quickly since she had a very favorable temp order.)  Others here had similar experiences... failed mediations but months later a settlement just before a major hearing or trial.

If you don't come to an agreement in mediation, be to document the reasonable proposals that your stbx rejected - for your own sanity, if not for your atty and potentially for the judge down the road.

The best advice is to focus on demonstrating that you're a great parent, rather than attempting to illustrate the ways in which your stbx is not.  However, helping the court to see who is reasonable is in your best interest.

In cases like ours, the conflict doesn't automatically end when decree absolute is issued.  A disordered former spouse will continue to project their emotions onto you - and often on to your kids, too.

I'm almost 3 years post-divorce, and my ex continues to smear me in our community, to the kids' health providers, teachers, etc.  I get regular hate mail in which she wants to rehash the parenting plan, claim child support is inadequate, and generally vent about a, b, y, z...

My MO is remains the same as prior to the D, as I came to understand the patterns - don't be invalidating, don't JADE, try to limit interactions to email/text, be super concise, focus on the kids and ignore everything else.

I hoped that when she got remarried, her attention would shift in a new direction - but sure enough:  some of her most flaming accusations came just before the wedding, and have continued to come my way.  Apparently, my evil twin continues to live rent-free in her head...

Hard to say if anything like this will happen for you, but as long as you share responsibility for the kids, there will be some necessary interaction.

You're asking good questions, and anticipating what to expect can be helpful.  My advice here, and not just for PD situations, is:  Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

Although we do see a lot of the same patterns here, every situation is different.  You know your stbx best.  Does she always play the victim card?  Does enlist others to her cause?  Does she overtly (or covertly) try to be the kids' favorite?  If any of these behaviors/dynamics are present, they are unlikely to change simply because a judge says "you're now divorced."

Hope this helps.

Wow!
Thanks so much for the responses. (I was assuming I would get an email notification when someone replies, hence I didn't respond earlier).

In regards to the questions raised here:
  Does she always play the victim card?
Ever since the divorce process started, definitely yes, in our community for, example, or my kids schools she has been at it from day one telling everyone her version of reality. Of course she likes to add, "It's not his fault, he's been through a rough childhood and probably is experiencing a nervous breakdown". Though to the court she admitted that theres never been any violence from my end (though I can't say the same for her).

  Does enlist others to her cause?
She most definitely does, starting with her whole family that's been involved and actively guiding her how to best "get me". In our community I have a very good standing which has been supportive of me, and that makes her nuts.


Does she overtly (or covertly) try to be the kids' favorite? She does. And her parents do to 10th power, if you get what I mean. They tell the kids endless reasons why they must listen and spend time with mom and not dad.

Though they haven't been overly succesful...

This is where you play the long game.  Think of the strategies in soccer, football, basketball, any competitive sport.  Do they get a decent start to the game and sit back?  Yes, you've got a relatively good start, more than mere alternate weekends but not quite a 2-2-3 (2-2-5-5) schedule, for that you'd need the rest of Sunday into your Monday.  Having a shortened weekend limits some activities you can have with the kids.  But you don't stop there.  This is a years-long challenge to be and remain an involved parent.

@FA, going back to your first post - you mentioned that your stbx wants a fee to watch the kids when/if you travel...   I don't know the legal guidelines in your area, however when my x made proposed this in our negotiations, my attorney seemed excited about the prospect of taking it before a judge - I recall the comment: "trading cash for parenting time is almost always a red flag" 

Stepping back for a moment, negotiating the parenting schedule and child support is entirely about trading cash for parenting time...   

However, if there are claims on her part that call into question your fitness to be a parent - and then, in this context, she asks for extra compensation to take the kids for a few extra nights here and there...  she may be contradicting herself.  If there's a sincere concern, she should be delighted for every extra minute she can get with the kids, right?

These contradictions can easily get lost in the process, between FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt), and general BPD chaos - but when called into question with just the right touch at just the right time, can call into question all other claims on her side...

Of course, she'll also reciprocate and pay you for any nights that when she wishes to modify the schedule, right?   It's a bit of a gambit, but if your stbx is anything like my x, she will likely say no - what's ok for her is not ok for you. 

My ex has literally encouraged one of our kids to transition to her early on a regular basis - and then asked me for compensation "for extra wear and tear on sheets and towels" - I'm amazed she put this in writing (of course it's been added to my file).

To your original question - it sounds like the conflict is primed to continue, and finalizing the D will likely be a trigger for your stbx.

If these books are not already on your night stand, consider adding to the list:

Divorce Poison - Warshak
Don't Alienate The Kids - Eddy
Co-Parenting with a Toxic Ex - Baker and Fine

Hang in there.

Keep the kids together (in respect to parenting time) as much as possible.  You mentioned special needs with the youngest.  Don't let her use that as a reason for you not to parent ALL the children.  It's common for a disordered parent who can't discern the distinction between self and child/children (considering the children are extensions of self) to claim the right to assume command and decisions over an ill or needy child.

While it apparently is rare, sometimes our ex-spouses' behavior remind us of shades of Factitious Disorder (previously known as Munchausen or a variation of child abuse, Munchausen by Proxy).  So be aware and don't let claimed illness be used as an excuse for the ex to unreasonably snatch parenting.

Another excellent book is written by William Eddy... Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=47078.0).  The insight, concepts, advice and strategies are practical for wherever you may reside.

It would be good to ponder how you will want to structure handling parenting time when either of you desire variations to the established schedule.  One concept is Right of First Refusal (ROFR) which can have variations.

In my case, I made sure my final decree stated that my time was MY time, whether they were in school, in daycare, with a sitter, etc.  My ex felt that if I wasn't personally there then she ought to automatically get control of the kids.

One pearl of wisdom when 'trading' time is to get it documented in writing (or email/text) and get your end of the deal first.  This is to build a history of any noncompliance.  Yes, all our ex-spouses tend to want their benefit first and then deny us the other end of the deal.

One goal in the divorce should be for you to encourage or enable your ex to find work if not already working.  She may want alimony (usually begun after the divorce is final) to continue forever.  These days alimony is generally to allow the financially disadvantaged spouse to transition from the marriage.  It is seldom more than half the length of the marriage and usually much less.  (At the time of my final decree we had been married 18 years and attorneys agreed I paid alimony for just 3 years.)

Welcome to the site!  I agree with everything everyone else wrote, but will add my $0.02 on top of that.

1) In response to your specific question above, I would say "The conflict is expected to continue."

Conflict is essentially the sine qua non of dealing with a pwBPD, so your basically asking "if I go in the ocean, will I get wet?"

That being said, it's not hopeless.  Just adjust your expectations and prepare accordingly, and it won't seem as bad.  And remember, only respond to what you need to; you'll be divorced, meaning you don't have to answer to them anymore! 

As an example:

Her: "What time are you picking [kids] up?  I'm tired of you being late every week.  It's obvious you care more about yourself than them.  You're a narcissist and I can't believe I'm only seeing that now."

You [prudently ignoring everything that isn't true]: "I'll be there at 6."


2) Fight for what you need and let go of what you don't.  As I said above, you should expect conflict either way, even if you give her everything she wants, so you might as well fight for what you need.  Rights to establish the kid(s) school(s) are essential; whoever has sole rights can move wherever they want (within the geographic restrictions), and can use sheer distance to affect the other parent's rights to see the kids.  I'll give you an example from my own experience below.

3) if you have joint decisions, include a tie breaker, but see if you can make her have to bear the costs of fighting/arguing.  For example: if you don't agree on medical treatment, the doctor is the tiebreaker.  If she wants an opinion from another doctor, she pays for it. 

I found that the only thing that would limit BPDxw's capacity for conflict was her cheapness and unwillingness to spend her own money.  Propose cost shifting clauses that force her to bear the burden of fighting.

I was able to get through my divorce with BPDxw relatively quickly and for not too much money by conceding a lot, and letting her have primary custody and the right to designate schools.  Our geographic limitation was our county.  At the time, we were living less than 10 mins from eachother, and so I agreed to pick up our D from her house after school.  I did all the driving (picking up and dropping off to start or end my periods of possession).

Well... counties around here can be big.  And even if they aren't that big, consider how much time it would take you to drive across one to pick up your kids from school.  BPDxw moved almost to the edge of the county line, about 25 miles away, (longer if you take into account the route), and put our daughter in a crappy rural school.  This made it really difficult for me to see her; I've had to pay extra for after school pickup and daycare, and needless to say, have a miserably long drive in the mornings to take her to school.  Consider this outcome and how you may address it better in your own situation. 

Giving up a couple thousand dollars in some concession during the divorce would've been better for me than this situation...

Also: potentially consider getting a therapist for the kids written in the decree, and do not allow your partner unilateral rights to change them.  And if the therapist retires or is otherwise unavailable, let them designate a successor.  Something like that.

Having a good T helps manage the situation.

Thanks all for the amazing peices of advice.
I never thought of being able to use that demand of her having the kids for payment on the days that I travel against her. This was always viewed by me as just another way of her trying to control me post divorce.

In regards to child support, she is actually willing to settle for a ridiculously low amount per month. That shouldn't be a problem for, seeing that her parents are very supportive, she has a monthly income, and receives a monthly stipend due to my daughter's disability. That really should be split among us, but I haven't seen a penny since June.
We also own an apartment that she is taking the liberty of renting out and taking the money. Originally I didn't want to fall prey to her trap of being the "bad guy", and getting the tenant evicted from my apartment that I never agreed to rent out. My lawyer kept telling me to look at the big picture and not make a fuss over a few hundred dollars a month, and in the divorce agreement he'll put everything in. Though as time goes on, I'm becoming more and more skeptical about that tactic.

I did sense that at the times that I was proactive, whether in court or other ways, she definitely felt the pressure and wouldn't play games, but now as I've kinda settled into rote and become passive she's rearing her head.

I moved out 2 months ago, and still have a ton a personal belongings that she won't let me come and get.

In regards to the kids, it's a really difficult balance to keep a respectful image of Mom in their head, but at the same time dispel all the nonsense she is telling them. She arranged for each of my daughter's after school programs on the day that they are supposed to be by me, telling them "that it's easier for dad if you're out of the house". My gut would say "CANCEL!" but my daughter's are both excited and looking forward, so I just don't feel that it's fair.

The same in regards to handicapped child. I went for a month and half without being able to see her, as she can't just pick up and walk over like the older ones. There was one instance right after I moved out that I was holding her, and my wife literally came over and forcefully yanked her out of my hands.

Her narrative was that I don't want her, and I only want the older 3 kids with me. Her daycare heard that for a month straight. Her attempts to portray me as such actually worked, until court ruled on temporary custody, and everyone see's that I'm taking her with open arms, and she is excited whem comes and leaves me.

One of my real fears is that my 6 year old is developing fears of abandonment that may develop into BPD at some point, and that terrifies me. She was a happy, talented, calm young girl until 6 months ago, and now she has completely changed. Though there is only so much I can do at this point.

Thanks for the resources, I'll make sure to look them up.

I was recomended to read "The Intelligent Divorce". Is anyone familiar with that?

Pete Witsend

Funny that you mention doctor as a tiebreaker, that's actually an area of contention. Our primary pediatrician, who's know my daughter since birth is an expert physician. My daughter has a rare and complex condition, and he's been a lifesaver more than once, and knows the in's and out's of what she needs.
However my wife and her Mom decided that he is a pedofile, (totally baseless from my perspective) this is due to a hypersensitivity in her family to child sexual abuse, as her Mom claims to have been molested me a family member as a child, hence she developed PTSD.

So while I wrote that any medical issue that can't be agreed upon will be determined by the doctor "who's cared for the kids until now". She writes "the doctor which both parent's will agree upon".

Go figure....

I had a daycare and our pediatrician's office who "withdrew services" due to ex's conflict.  Another daycare filed an harassment motion against my ex but then withdrew it when they discovered it wasn't the way to handle the situation.  That one too withdrew services.  Professionals do not want to deal with problem people.  There is too much risk of lawsuits, complaints to licensing boards and them seeing no need to put up with the acting out.

Middle and high school were much better for my parenting because by then I had custody and majority time.  Our son is grown now and has aged out of the system.  So nearly all of that conflict is in the past.  I still have to be careful not to say anything that might trigger her.

You need to adjust your thinking here, if you haven't already: you're going to be the Bad Guy, no matter what you do.  So do what's in your interest. you don't have to be rude or angry about it, and you can use whatever words you want, but don't concede anything thinking "If I don't give on this, she'll hate me more" or "If I give her this, she'll be happy with me"... she's going to hate you the same, and she's going to say bad things about you regardless of what you do, so you might as well get the best deal for yourself (and your kids). 

Well after any hopes of mediation seem to have fell through, as there was just too mnay compromises on my behalf. My lawyer was way too optimistic from my perspective, I was pretty sketical all along, knowing the parties involved.

One of the choices that I have to make is whether or not to continue through the standard family court system, where I basically have all I can get from a custody perspective, or decide to "take off the gloves" and pursue the criminal path. Where I live the 2 are not dependent on each other, and the criminal system can be worked to my advantage. My kids have reported today and on Monday some physical abuse on my STBXW part. My 8 year old son told her today in the morning, "I'm staying with Dad and not coming back to you", which she replied, "than you"ll make Dad end up in jail.

My kids expressed to me that they really want to come to me more often, but Mom tells them that I"ll end up in jail if they do that. Which is utter nonsense.

Though on the other hand, the criminal system is wrought with consant "below the belt" fighting, with the kids dragged through everything, and it's a real pity for them to have to suffer more than they already are.

I am a bit concerned though, that if I don't do it, she will beat me to it file a fabricated criminal complaint against me like she's done in the past.

So it's kinda like being stuck behind a rock and a hard place.

Feeling stuck sucks and can be overwhelming -- so many of us have been there, where it seems impossible to move forward. However, there may be some "lateral" steps you can take, both for documentation (paper trail) and for your own education about options, before you "pull the trigger" on pursuing criminal charges -- where even if it seems like the steps aren't "moving you forward", they can protect the ground you've gained.

...

Can you get your L to document (dated, on paper/in email) your explicit concern that your W will try to bring false criminal charges against you.

Find out from your L about her/his experience with criminal law; if none or not enough for you, ask for recommendations. Your legal issues are like your "business" and any and all lawyers are your "employees". You don't have to stick with the one, or just one, L if that's not the best fit for your needs.

Get a "consultation" or "fit interview" or whatever the free short equivalent is, with whatever L's you connect with, to make sure that they will work assertively for you and your needs. Note that any L you call -- even if you do not retain that L -- will then not be able to represent your W. Merely saying Hi on the phone is often enough for them to ask for your name and your W's name so that they will not represent her over this issue in the future.

Head to the police station in person, ask to either make a report of a concern, or tell them about your situation and ask them what they would recommend that you do. Ask if they are documenting your visit and what it's about. See if you can get report #'s, visit #'s, date/time stamped stuff.

You can call CPS about "hypothetical" situations, and they won't initiate the investigation process. Make sure to specify that you are "hypothetically" wondering about what you should do, and what you could expect if you were to report (or if "someone" were to report in the "example" situation). I did that twice, I think, before making the actual report (had to call earlier this year).

You may also benefit from calling a local DV hotline. When kids are exposed to violence in the home, that can sometimes "count" as DV, even if it isn't directed at them (to say nothing of if it is). DV hotline workers can work with you to come up with a safety plan for you and the kids, even in your two-home situation. Because DV hotlines are often anonymous, they may not be able to provide you with documentation that you called or what you called about, but they can help orient you towards what you need to do for your kids, and how these situations typically unfold in your area (there can be region-to-region differences in DV law).
...

It seems like the biggest issue is keeping the kids safe, whatever lever you use to do that. That is to say -- if for some reason there were a non-criminal court path forward that would effectively protect the kids, that would be what you would do, correct? Not saying there is or isn't -- just getting clarity on priorities.

You'll probably have to determine how best to report alleged child abuse in your location.  Important too is to determine how "actionable" or legally consequential the mother's actions are.  You can be sure she'll deny, project it back onto you and, likely too, try to pressure or manipulate the child to recant.

Their mother saying Dad would end up in jail if the child didn't do whatever is venturing into Parental Alienation territory.  The challenge is to document it, perhaps with a counselor or social services.  Sadly, parental manipulation such as this is horrible but itself may or may not rise to the level of being "actionable".

I think trying mediation is worth it if only to document in front of other professionals that she isn't cooperating.

I have heard good things about parent coordinators. There are also apps that track all your communication and that can get people to behave a little better.

It sounds like you are doing a great job focusing on the kids and I'm glad the financial picture seems manageable. She is probably not going to change. Documentation helps - write down things the kids say and things you observe.