BPDFamily.com

Posting this here instead of the board about BPD parents because this is the board I've been posting in lately, but since I have to deal with both (a BPD mom and a BPD husband) I guess it could go in either (*sigh*).

So in my divorce, I just finished discovery and am now waiting for mediation, and my mom has been bombarding me with texts. She's been divorced three times, so you would think she would be somewhat helpful or at least sympathetic to my situation, but I keep getting reminded that she is completely incapable of being helpful at all. Back when she thought my marriage was healthy, she acted jealous towards me that I was so lucky to have found a wonderful husband and here she is all alone. When she found out my marriage was abusive, she changed to having an "I told you so" attitude (she claims she knew there was something wrong with stbxh from the beginning but oh no I wouldn't listen), and now seems to be dragging me into some sort of contest over which of our divorces is worse (of course hers were much worse), and who is handling the divorce better (of course she deserves so much credit for handling her divorces so civilly and amicably).

She seems to have fixated on my relationship with my ex-MIL. Before, I got along really well with my MIL, better than with my actual mother, which made my mother really jealous and resentful. I was really sad that divorcing my husband would mean losing his family too (of course, I kept all my husband's abusive and disordered behaviors secret from them). This is especially hurting now that it's the holiday season, and I always used to spend holidays with them.

I was worried that once I filed for divorce, my in-laws would turn against me, but so far they have been pretty civil. I was worried about a smear campaign at the our church, but so far that hasn't happened. I figured out that a lot of people from our church don't even know what's going on with us (I assumed there would be lots of gossip and rumors flying but apparently not). The people I have told have all been polite about it, saying things like, "if there's anything I can do to help you during this difficult transition, just let me know." All and all I'm pretty grateful that things have been this civil so far.

But I have minimized my contact with my ex in-laws. I've been basically trying to follow the same rules I've been trying to follow with my stbxh, only sticking to topics related to taking care of D5. On weekends I have D5, I take her to church, but don't sit next to my stbxh's family. On weekends where stbxh has D5, he keeps her home and doesn't go to church. Stbxh was never really that involved in the church anyway. Mostly I would go with my MIL without him, and it looks like he hasn't become more active since the separation.

In my stbx's discovery documents, he named his mother, sister, and brother-in-law as possible witnesses for his side (and that's it). I named people like D5's preschool teachers, pediatrician, Sunday school teacher, etc. The thing is, I always assumed that my stbxh's family would be on his "team," so none of this is really a surprise, and I'm just grateful that they're aren't being openly hostile towards me.

The strange thing is, my own mother thinks this is all terrible. She doesn't understand why I don't sit by my exMIL in church, she doesn't understand why we aren't sending Christmas cards to each other, and in general she doesn't understand why I've limited my contact with her. She oscillates between called exMIL a b*tch for not sitting with me at church, and not understanding why I am OK with that. She also seems to think my exMIL should take my side in the custody battle, because she should know that obviously I was the better parent, and doesn't seem to get it when I tell her that yes, deep down inside she probably does know that, but of course she's not going to take my side against her own son.

It's so strange because my mom was so jealous of my relationship with my MIL, I would have thought that she'd want us to turn against each other. She was always talking about how I replaced her with my MIL. Well, shouldn't now be her chance to get me back?

But instead, my mom keeps criticizing me for not handling this divorce as amicably as she handled hers with my dad. I tried to tell her that since my dad didn't even try to seek custody of me and my sister, she didn't have to deal with a custody battle, which made her divorce much easier, but she just keeps going on about how she kept in touch with my dad's mom and still sent her Christmas cards, so she deserves so much credit for that. She also often derails the conversation into talking about what a disappointment I am, going so far as to say things like, "I hope for your sake [your daughter] doesn't end up treating you the way that you have treated me."

I guess I'm posting this here (instead of the BPD parent board) because I assume some of you have also had to deal with the drama from the divorce "spilling over" to other family members. What do you think about how I'm handling things with my ex in-laws so far? I think it would be best for me to lay low and keep my mouth shut and not really have much contact with them until the divorce is finalized, especially if they have been named as witnesses for my husband's side. I don't want to inadvertently say anything to them that could be used against me later. Maybe after the divorce is totally over, and hopefully I have custody of D5, then I can think about what kind of relationship I want to have with those people, if any.

But my mom thinks I'm being terrible here and doesn't seem to understand at all why I am taking this approach. And I guess I could send my MIL a Christmas card, but is she going to send me one? Probably not. I guess I'll see.

My mom has also been texting my stbxh, and I'm thinking of telling her to quit doing that. She said she told him that she knows him seeking custody of D5 is just a way for him to try to hurt me, and asked him why he is doing that to me, and she says he didn't respond. I really don't see how her getting involved like that would help and would rather she just stayed out of this.

In fact, I don't see her helping the situation at all. She'll text me asking how I'm doing, sounding like a supportive mother (how a mother should be) at first, but the conversation always ends up derailing to the point where she's just making me feel worse about everything and I almost want to go no contact with her again.

It bothers me that I basically can't trust anybody here, not my stbxh's family, and not my own family either, but that seems to be the situation I'm in.

Hi Gerda;

Yes, we have experienced strange connections between my H's family and his kids' mom.

Back when H and Mom were together, one of H's much younger sisters (one of my sisters-in-law) came to live with them, around age 17. H got SIL a job at his workplace, tried to help her out. SIL developed a relationship with the kids' mom and, after H and Mom divorced and Mom quickly got together with H's former best friend, SIL started idealizing the kids' mom and stepdad, calling them "Mom" and "Dad" -- "the parents she always wished she had".

While SIL (now in her early 30s) will tell us "oh, I'm not into all that open marriage stuff, I think if you're married you need to be really committed to each other", as far as we hear, she is still friends with Mom (Stepdad is legally still married to Mom but has a girlfriend on the side).

H and I have decided not to tell her anything about the kids besides neutral things that we'd be OK with getting back to Mom. We met up with SIL not long after we had to call CPS, but we didn't let anything drop to SIL -- did not discuss the kids at all, kept it light. Not sure if SIL knows (though she has likely heard about CPS involvement from Mom's distorted view) but we can't think of any other way to play it.

Fortunately, H's mom (my MIL) is fairly trustworthy, also has some relationship challenges with SIL, and doesn't press H and SIL to have a relationship. We are all together for family vacations sometimes; SIL and I do actually get along OK -- we have some shared interests -- but we don't talk about anything important or private with her.

...

The kids' mom is much more online and on social media than H or myself. She has professed in the past that she doesn't like H's dad (H's dad and mom are divorced) and doesn't want the kids around him. However, she stayed Facebook friends with him and apparently his son (H's half brother) for years, and made sure to announce to us that she knew about H's brother's health issue.

I think it's a control thing -- it is very difficult for her not to be the first one with information about something, and having information that others don't have helps her feel one-up. Information is her currency, and withholding or doling out information is how she feels in control.

It's difficult stuff to navigate. I think part of navigating it more successfully (or less unsuccessfully, lol) is radical acceptance of the abilities and limitations of family members, even family members who aren't the main pwBPD you're dealing with.

I would love to have a closer relationship with SIL; however, it seems that she is limited in her functional skills to feel safe/confident in family relationships. Instead, SIL uses immature approaches ("stirring the pot" to pump up conflict) to help her "know where everyone stands". If there's conflict, she feels better, and she can create/manage conflict in her position between H and the kids' mom. We have to accept that about her because we cannot change her. We can change how much information we trust her with -- that is under our control.

...

I really understand how you don't want your mom texting your ex.

Do you think your mom has a "spidey sense" that that is important to you?

Would your mom be receiving valuable engagement (even negative) if you tried to "make" her stop -- would she then know that's how to get you to talk to her?

I also wonder if there are some neutral, low drama responses you can make when your mom starts on "but why don't you just send her a Christmas card, it's so simple, it's your child's grandmother, blah blah blah".

Maybe: "Mom, that's so thoughtful of you to want her to be remembered... even though I can't swing Christmas cards for anyone this year, please don't hesitate to send her one yourself" (if you're OK with saying that!")

or: "Yeah, I wish I had the time to send anyone cards this year, you know how crazy it's been. I'll see how things look next Christmas!"

or: "Mom, you've been so attuned to how things are going for me, I'm sure you get why I'm taking a break from talking about those relationships for a bit. When would you like to get together with me and D5 this year?"

something neutral, that makes a statement about what you are doing (doesn't ask her to change, or plead with her, or open your choices up for negotiation), and maybe changes the subject.

You're allowed not to talk to your mom about whatever topics you don't want to talk about. You're allowed to do that by, when she raises the topic, saying something like: "Hey Mom, I actually have to go -- thanks for calling, have a great rest of your day".

Just wondering if you can proactively (vs reactively) exit the conversation when it's still supportive and before it derails. You know it's coming, so it's OK for you to put your hands on the wheel and decide for yourself what you're up for participating in  |iiii

I think one problem we have here is that when we have any family member with a personality disorder, other family members probably have issues of one variety or another too.

Like I'm pretty sure my exMIL is an enabler. That's why I wouldn't be at all surprised if she vouched for her son in a custody battle, even if somewhere deep down inside she knows that I'm the better parent. If she doesn't end up doing that, I'll be impressed. It's just blowing my mind that my own mom doesn't seem to understand that and thinks I should keep being all chummy with her like nothing happened.

This is the first Christmas post-separation, so I'm still working on figuring out how things are going to be from now on.

As for my mom texting my ex, I guess she thinks she's helping. I guess she thinks maybe she can talk him into giving up on trying to get custody of D5, but I have the feeling that, if anything, hearing from her will make him just double down harder to make some kind of point. She did offer to quit texting him, if I wanted her to, but framed it in a negative way, like "I guess I'll just be a b*tch and quit talking to him like [MIL] did to you!" Why doesn't she understand that sometimes it's best to just leave people alone for a bit?

I've been reading up to refresh my memory on the Karpman Drama Triangle because I have a strong suspicion that some of those dynamics are going on here

It may help to look at your mother's behavior from a general perspective as well. For some reason, my BPD mother seems drawn to drama, seems to focus on criticism and has poor boundaries. In your situation, it's the divorce, but from what I have seen- it's the drama, the "someone being wrong" and overstepping boundaries- in situations that provide a focus for her. Perhaps there's some emotional benefit to focusing on someone else's issues, putting herself into it when it's not about her, and finding something to be critical of, even if that seems relatively minor. She wants to be in the know and kept informed of people's personal business.

My BPD mother triangulates- pulls people to her side, shares something confidential, and then tells them to "not tell me what they talked about". She's even tried to do this with my H, who keeps a distance from her. She's even done this with my in laws.

For you, at the moment, it's a divorce but it could be any personal situation that you want to manage without your mother overstepping her boundaries. You can't control what she does. I can't stop my mother from contacting people or saying things about me to other people. I can control what information I share with her. I also don't have to stay in conversations while she is being critical of me- in any situation. I can focus on not providing more fuel for the emotional drama, as much as possible.

First step is with you- self care. A divorce is emotionally stressful. What I learned is that, if we aren't feeling emotionally at our best, we are more likely to be reactive. This fuels the drama in a disordered relationship. It means we need to take some time for self care. You may be less able to tolerate time speaking to your mother. For me, what helped is to not share personal or emotional information with her. She isn't able to be supportive or comforting.

Your BPD mother hyperfocusing on smaller things- like who you sit with in church- my BPD mother does that too. One small thing might be perceived as a big slight for her. But this is her own perspective and not necessarily true.

I can relate to not being able to trust anyone in either of the families. Having a disordered person in a family does influence family dynamics. I have learned that I can not trust my mother or anyone connected to her. These are boundaries. We can find people who are supportive- and I hope you do find people who you can trust. Your attorney, a counselor- perhaps a close friend - are more reliable supports.

You are wise to be wary of in laws while custody is being settled - parents do look out for their children- but also - independently of your ex- she's a grandmother and surely wants to have a relationship with your child. It makes sense that your in laws want to have a civil relationship with you- for all of you and also for your child. Reading up on the Karpman triangle will be helpful to avoid triangulation, but if your in laws are stable people, then they can have their own relationship with your child as grandparents. At the moment, while custody is being worked out- go with what you feel is going to be for the best outcome. You don't have to sit with them in church if you don't want to. Once all this is settled- then you can work out what kind of relationship is best for your child. For now, focus on you, and your child.

In addition to your in laws, you will also be deciding on the kind of relationship your child will have with your own mother over time. But for now, focus on getting through this in the best possible way for you and your child.

That's what I've been trying to do, limiting my contact with exMIL to strictly child-related things. Same rules as with stbxH, basically, though she's been doing a better job of sticking to that boundary than stbxH. I do want D5 to maintain a good relationship with exMIL, especially since exMIL is in poor health and probably doesn't have much longer in this world.

You make a good point about moms with BPD needed to meddle in other people's business. It seems really important to my mom to criticize how I'm handling my divorce and wants credit for how she handled her divorce from my dad so much better. Trying to point out how our situations are a bit different doesn't seem to phase her. (And I better not dare point out that perhaps my dad deserves some credit in how he handled things!)

I would tell her to absolutely stop doing that.  no good can come from it, and pwBPD are simply not trustworthy, period, so you have no idea what she's saying, or sharing.

I kinda went through this too.  I have a brother that kept texting BPDxw after our divorce.  he sent her a text and a long email telling her "our family" still cared for her and if she needed anything to reach out. 

I have no idea why he did this, and it felt particularly wrong to me, given how he knew what she had put me through, and how she had treated our family, including intentionally keeping them from seeing our D on occasion, on top of everything else.  It seemed like a betrayal.  I yelled at him for this and asked him basically WTF he was thinking.  he was very defensive about it, and claimed there was no reason for him to have hard feelings, and he was just keeping a line of communication open for our daughter, in case something happened to me. 

He didn't accomplish anything, whatever his goal... His efforts only served to give BPDxw ammunition to throw back in my face, or tell other people about, e.g. "Even Pete's family still talks to me and likes me.  It was clearly all his fault the marriage ended" etc. etc.

Fortunately in my case my mom also took my side here and told him in no uncertain terms to knock it off.  As far as I know, he has. 


You're in a tough spot, for sure.  But it will all pass eventually. 

I think you need to set some boundaries with your mom, and basically let her know that if she's not supportive of you and doesn't stop contact with your ex & his family, you're not going to speak with her.  And when the conversation starts to veer into "BPD Land" just end the call and hang up on her.  Maybe remind her why each time first. 

As far as the inconsistency between how your mom behaved toward you pre-divorce and post-divorce, I think along the lines of what Notwendy said, that pwBPD are just drawn to conflict.  They almost seem to feed off it, and will do and say whatever they can to create it, without regard for how the come off, and with no concern for the hit to their credibility it causes with others.

In my case, knowing what I knew about BPD, I would tell family members that were struggling to understand why BPDxw did or said something upsetting to them to not put any stock in what she was saying; the point was not what anyone did or said, the point was she NEEDED and WANTED conflict, and to that end would go out of her way to create it. 

She blew up at my mom once during a visit and kept telling me how awful she was and how she couldn't wait for her to leave.  Near the end of the visit - trying to avoid further conflict - my mom and step-dad left to go do some sight-seeing and spent the day away from us.  Well you'd think BPDxw would be happy, since that's what she wanted, right?  Instead she started complaining my mom was not spending time with us and our daughter, and calling her selfish and unloving for that.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

But when it starts, remind yourself not to get wrapped up in the words or the emotions, and establish some boundaries around what you're willing to tolerate.

Good points. In my situation, asking my BPD mother to not do something- or ask her for something- she's likely will do the opposite. I have no control over what she says to other people or who she contacts. She even called my in- laws to say something about me. Fortunately, they didn't consider her to be a reliable source.

And yes, the paradoxical behavior. My mother disliked my father's family. They didn't like her either but they have always been civil to her. After my father passed away, I assumed they wouldn't have much contact with each other. There wasn't reason to at this point. We kids were adults and they could have contact with us.

There was a family reunion on my father's side a while after that and BPD mother was not invited. She got angry. I asked her why would she be angry- she didn't like them and she wouldn't have attended. Her reply is that she should have been invited on principle because she was my father's wife.

Yes, if they had a good relationship all along, but they don't like each other, and it is mutual. It doesn't make logical sense but emotions aren't logical. She may not have liked them but she still wanted to be included.

Maybe this is just another version of the "push- pull" dynamics.

I think boundaries with your disordered family members helps.

Yeah, I think so.  Conflict is one method, and in my experience, their main method, of interacting with others.  It was almost like BPDxw had an unhealthy need for constant human contact, and if she wasn't getting it because I or whoever else was busy, she would pick a fight. 

It was almost like it didn't matter what we were saying, as long as we were interacting with eachother, even if that "interaction" was screaming and yelling and slamming doors.  That was preferable to her to having hobbies or anything "normal" to occupy her time. 

It's a self-defeating strategy, because pretty much everyone eventually leaves her, but that's why it's a disorder, I suppose.

Yes, it's the same with my BPD mother. What made this clearer to me is now that she is elderly and needs assistance - she does the same with people who are helping her. It's not personal to me or the issue she is focused on. So, for Gerda, it's the divorce but with other people, it's something else. It's not just the issue or the person but how my BPD mother interacts.

Going back to your first post, I wonder if there are two things going on (albeit with overlap):

First, like you mentioned:


and also, your mom's involvement.

In terms of your MIL, that relationship seems like a good candidate for BIFF communication (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=134124.0). Maybe think of her like a "business partner" in the business of being D5's family.  You two have different roles and won't be close friends; however, you both have an investment in D5. I might verbally wish my coworkers Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, for example, and not give them gifts or send them cards. If I did give a card, it might be very "businesslike": "warm wishes for the holiday season; best, kells76" but I wouldn't give a lot of personal information. If you don't have any legal advice to the contrary, I think you have a lot of leeway to interact (or not) with your MIL however you'd navigate a business relationship. Not cold -- but not close. Again, if this is more of a "how do I navigate the personal relationship" vs "how do I navigate this legally", then BIFF/business seems like a good approach.

In terms of your mom's involvement, is the core question more a legal one -- she's connecting with your ex and you have legal concerns about that?

or is the question more a personal one -- she's connecting with your ex, you don't have legal concerns but it's distracting, frustrating, intrusive, and you wish she would stop?

If it's the latter (not up to the level of "legally she needs to stop" but more "I really, really, really want her to stop"), Notwendy has important advice:


For me, the question would be: what is the most effective way to deal with that situation. Asking or telling her to stop might accidentally be ineffective, in that it signals to her "this is important to Gerda and how I get reactions/engagement from Gerda". If there's no legal ground then maybe brainstorming here could be helpful in figuring out an unintuitive path forward.

Of course, if the issue with your mom contacting your ex rises to a legal level, then your L will likely have good perspective on a "watertight" way to effect that.

It is tough.  I think you still need to communicate that you want them to stop, and that's where the boundary enforcement comes in: "stop, or I will not speak to you or share information with you anymore, as I have to assume you will share it with STBXH."

That takes away BPDmom's incentive to continue to speak to him in a way.  Like "I can't get my daughter all wound up about talking to her STBXH if she won't take my calls AT ALL, so I'd better stop.

Of course she'll likely be very passive aggressive and confrontational about it, but I learned when dealing with a pwBPD, you can't expect to get a perfect result... i.e. She's not going to stop doing X AND apologize and be nice about it, but if she stops doing X, the battle is at least won.

I think it's important to discuss the boundary but in my situation, it's been action boundaries. I can say it to my mother but it's still up to her to decide what to do about it.

I like the idea that PeteWistend proposed and you can decide how your mother would respond to this. If this were my mother,  these terms, "stop contacting my ex or I won't share" would be making the "tea" -information she wants- contingent on her not doing something. If this were my mother, she'd continue to do what she wants.

My boundary is- I do not discuss anything with my mother that I feel is confidential. She has shown me by her actions that information with her is not confidential. I would suggest that you have a similar one with your mother, especially during this time when legally it's risky. I think you can also say to her "Mom, I don't think it's advisable for you to be contacting my ex during this time while the divorce is being settled" but if this were my mother, she'd ignore that. The boundary has to be my action- don't share confidential information with her.

This sounds like one of those times when a non-disordered person just doesn't get it and expects a pwBPD to act like a normal person too. So frustrating when that happens! Especially since it sure would be nice if the pwBPD did act normally and civilly in this situation, but you know they won't.

Whoops that last post messed up somehow. Let me try this again...


I actually hadn't thought of the possibility that it might have legal implications. My temporary orders state that my stbx and I are only supposed to communicate through the parenting app about parenting related matters, but I don't recall it saying anything about other people.

It's more the latter, and also that I don't think it's going to help anything. If she's trying to convince my ex to give up on trying to seek primary custody of D5, I can see that causing him to double down even harder out of spite.

Though, something else I just remembered, I think stbx was the one to first contact my mom after the separation. I seem to recall my mom mentioned him texting her trying to convince her to talk to me and get me to change my mind and come back to him. This must have been before the court order when he was still bombarding me with texts every day begging me to come back. My mom then didn't respond the way he wanted, but they kept on texting with each other since then.

I think y'all are right that people with BPD are just attracted to drama, and pulling other people into the drama, and keeping the drama going. I've noticed that they seem to think that not talking to someone is the worst possible thing you could do to someone. Even if, when you do talk to them, all you do is fight. My husband was upset about the court order saying he couldn't text me anymore, and the horrible thing I did to my mom that she still guilt trips me about was going no contact with her for a couple of years a while back. And now my mom seems to be interpreting me and my exMIL not really talking as being this huge conflict between us even though I think it's actually being pretty civil.

I think you have a good point. They get angry when people don't tell them everything. But if they don't want to speak to someone, that's different.

A relative on my father's side of the family got divorced over 40 years ago and my mother still ( she's critical of his side of the family) says that this relative did a horrible thing by not telling her mother about it. I don't know any details as I was a teen at the time. I am sure she did tell her mother ( who didn't have BPD) but maybe she left out some personal details that maybe she didn't want to tell her mother, or maybe she didn't want to upset her mother - who knows. I think they had a good relationship. Yet, my mother -decades later- still said this.

When we moved BPD mother into assisted living, it was a hectic and busy day. We spoke to realtors, moving companies, moved her in. There was a nice lady there who helped us. When I was at the store getting some things, I picked up some flowers for my mother and also some to thank this nice lady. I ran into her as we were going to my mother's room so I gave them to her. Of all the things I had to discuss with my mother, I forgot to mention the flowers for the lady. After I left, she mentioned this to my mother.

Next morning, I get an angry call. "You didn't tell me you gave ____flowers. You embarrassed me" (what? I just didn't think to tell her- there was so much else going on)

Of all the things I did for her that day- this is what she thinks of?

But my mother doesn't tell me everything. She isn't direct and she hides information because it gives her a sense of control. So I think she assumes everyone else does this too. Now, I don't tell her things either but not out of control. It's because I don't trust her to keep things confidential.

Also, as you mentioned, we assume that non disordered people would "see" the issues. I thought so too but for a long time, my mother's family and friends didn't. Some do now but not all.

Yeah, and not just pwBPD... other behavioral disorders or just high-conflict personalities may feed off eachother too.  in my experience, the family members that made it a point to reach out to the non-family ex after a divorce in the family were the ones who seemed to have stability issues; If not BPD, then some other personality disorder maybe. 

I had an aunt that was the self-described "black sheep of the family" who was almost always creating drama at holidays by picking fights no one else saw coming, drinking too much, leaving unexpectedly and blaming someone else for her behavior after the fact, etc. In retrospect, she may have been on the BPD spectrum as well, I dunno.  But I remember when another family member got divorced, she made a big show of announcing that she'd still speak to the ex-husband (who we were not related to by blood), because she didn't have any problems with him, even though he had not been exactly faithful, and left things under a cloud.  Everyone tactfully ignored her, as I recall, knowing she was just looking for trouble. 

As far as their sensitivity to a lack of contact, I think it may reflect on their fear of abandonment. whether or not the person cutting contact is really that important to the pwBPD, the fact that they won't speak to them triggers that fear.  Of course, you can use this to help get them to behave, knowing their sensitivity to it.  It's really maybe the only way to get them to respect one of your personal boundaries, since they have trouble with basic politeness and respect otherwise. 

Well last Friday my mom spent literally all day texting me. She started at about 6 am and kept going until around 6 pm that evening.

It's remarkable how similar my mom and husband are. Makes me think more and more than my therapist's hypothesis is correct that my mom has BPD, and the reason why I ended up with a husband with BPD is that my mom taught me that it's normal for someone you have a close relationship with to treat you that way.

They both accuse me of not caring about them and just wanting their money. I tried to remind my mom again and again that I haven't asked her for money in at least 20 years, not since I was in college, but then she started going on about how she helped pay for college, bought me a car when I graduated high school, etc. Things that are either things parents usually do for their kids (helping pay for college), or things that I thought were gifts (that car was a high school graduation gift). I've joked with my friends that eventually she's going to want me to pay her back for all the food I ate as a child.

Husband does the same thing, accusing me of marrying him for his money. Back when we were still living together, he'd rant about how I want to divorce him because I think I'm going to get a ton of money from the whole deal. I made the mistake on Friday of mentioning this to my mom, and that my husband said that my mom divorced my dad to get a bunch of money from him. That sent my mom into a huge rant about how that's not true and how dare I say something like that, when I clearly said that I didn't say that, it was my husband who said that, but then she switched to saying things like, "Why would he think that? Someone must have told him that!" and accused me of telling him that.

Then after a while of my mom ranting about how I just want her money, and me repeatedly reminding her that I never asked for money from her after I moved out and got my own apartment when I was 22, it turned into, "so as soon as you didn't need me anymore, you abandoned me!" That reminded me of my husband accusing me of leaving him once I got what I wanted out of him (his income and a baby) and didn't need him anymore.

They both like to go on about how immature I am and how I need other people (like them) to take care of me all the time. Now, my mom talking to me like I'm a child is one thing, since I think it might be a little normal for adults to be annoyed that their parents still see them as children even after they are grown, but my husband just made that creepy. He's 14 years older than me, and especially after our daughter was born, he'd often complain that I'm so immature and "like a little kid," while at the same time complaining that he doesn't get enough sex from me. I tried to explain to him what a huge sexual turn off it is to have him talking to me like he's my father and calling me a little kid and then wanting to have sex (even lost my temper one time and said it make him seem like a pedophile), but that never did any good and he kept doing it.

They both say my friends turned me against them, even though I was reluctant to tell anyone about what was going on with me for a long time. But I guess that absolves them of any responsibility they might have for why I might not want to be around them anymore. And before that, they both used to get really jealous whenever I'd spend time with my friends.

My mom even accuses me of cheating on her, in a way, since she's also been ranting about how I made my mother-in-law my "new mother." My husband constantly accused me of cheating on him too, and just the other night D5 said something again about "Dada says that the real reason you moved to this apartment is because you have a new friend you love more than him," so he's still talking to our FIVE YEAR OLD DAUGHTER about how he thinks I've been cheating on him.

It's just fascinating how much they seem to be reading from the same script, even sometimes saying the exact same things to me word-for-word. They both seem to view me the same way (as an immature, entitled brat just out to use people for their money), yet they both accuse the other of abusing me, but both say that they never abused me themselves, and they both accuse the other of turning me against them.  Which I guess is a good thing, because otherwise I'd be worried about them teaming up against me.

I do remember the repeated tirades with my ex in the later years of my marriage.  They always repeated the same complaints and triggers, she never actually let them go.  The criticism and negativity wore me down too.

Well, seems like you would benefit with increased boundaries with your mother as well.  A good boundary would be that you can end the calls when they shift from conversations to accusations and similar negativity.  Give her a "timeout" of sorts, saying you won't be available until later.  After all, if you can't enjoy the calls, why expose yourself to more criticism?  You should not have to suffer for the other person's issues.

you keep going in circles with them, and seem to think there's some insight to be gained by exploring their thought process or reasoning here, when there isn't.  It's all just like the rants of an insane person on the street; complete nonsense. 

These are simply people with deranged understandings and views of the world, who get (rightly) rejected by most people.  You're the one who's willing to stand there and listen, and so they do and say whatever comes to their mind in the moment to keep the conversation going, no matter how unhinged from reality it is, or even if it contradicts what they're claiming they want or wanted you to do.  You can see this clearly in the way your mom seamlessly shifts her discourse from complaining about you wanting money to complaining about you leaving her when you (supposedly) got enough.  I'm sure there are many reasons why she's wrong, but it's not worth even evaluating one, because there's no substance behind what she's saying.

You need to realize that this is really your choice: either stay on the merry-go-round, tearing your hair out wondering how these disordered people can think like they do... or get off and go live your life how you want to. 

With your mom, establishing boundaries doesn't necessarily mean you have to cut contact completely, just recognizing the disordered rantings when they start and ending the conversation there, abruptly if you have to.  You can still call and hear about her day, hear how she's doing, but when she starts in on you, starts pushing your buttons, just "Oh, wow, okay, well I have to go now, bye." and move on.  And don't waste another second mentally wondering where that came from, because it's a fool's errand trying to understand the manipulative and self-serving arguments pwBPD come up with to drag you into the mud with them. 

just to add one other thought from my own experience, I hope you can see from the above-quoted passage that you need to stop worrying about what they will say or do, and just do what's best for you and your daughter, because regardless of what you do pwBPD (here your mom and your STBxh) will accuse you of acting in bad faith. 

During my divorce, I gave in on a bunch of financial things, to show I was acting in good faith, and not trying to fight over money or shortchange BPDxw.  I didn't want her to say bad things about me.  Well guess what?  She did anyway!  She claimed that I was "stealing money from her"...

this was a person who was on an extended student visa when we met, who was going in debt borrowing money from friends, and had nowhere (safe) to live.  After a few months of dating, I let her move in with me, rent-free, paid for all her food, loaned her money, and (after marriage) paid all the costs to get her a resident visa, paid all her citizenship costs, etc.  She was a stay-at-home mom for most of our marriage, and when she did make money, spent it on herself mainly.  She may have even been squirreling some of her own salary away.  I didn't see any obvious evidence, but since she was accusing me  of that, I assume given her record of projecting, in hindsight, she was probably doing what she accused me of. 

So looking back, I wish I had ignored any concerns of what she would think or say about me, and did what was in my own interest (and indirectly my daughters, since I've been saving for her college, and judging from her spending habits post divorce, BPDxw is NOT doing the same). 

so don't feel guilty about confiding in your friends, or even having friends, or fighting for yourself and standing up for yourself.  It's not only good for you and your daughter, it's the right thing to do here. 

The insight that your mother and STBX are alike is invaluable -- primarily in helping you in future relationships.

My stepdaughter has a mother who is uBPD/NPD. A few years ago, she told her father and me, "Yes, I've married the male version of my mother -- twice." It has been difficult to watch as she attempts to extricate herself from this current relationship, but at least they aren't living together anymore.

This single insight might be something to explore in therapy.

agree.  I think this is an example of when it could be really helpful.

also, Gerda, apologies if I came off as little too blunt in my last couple posts... sometimes it's hard to read what other pwBPD put people through without getting a little emotional.

Yeah, you're right. I used to do a better job at setting boundaries with her. I even quit speaking to her entirely for a couple of years. I started up again after I had my daughter.

As I'm going through the divorce, she'll text me and the conversation will start out like she's being supportive, like a mother should be in this situation. It's just so tempting to think that maybe this time will be different, but no, the conversation always derails into something that makes me feel worse that I felt before I talked with her.

That's just how she is. She's never going to change.

Yes, this was actually something my therapist caught onto fairly quickly. After describing my husband to her, she said something to the effect of, "I hate to break this to you, but I think your husband has a personality disorder, probably borderline personality disorder." I said something like, "Oh no, not another one!" and then explained to her that my last therapist through my mom has BPD. Then my current therapist said that makes a lot of sense.

That's why I always try to mention this to people on this board who have spouses with BPD and children and are unsure about divorcing. What kind of example are you showing your kids of what a relationship should be like?

The funny thing is both my husband and my mom think the other one is crazy and terrible and abusive towards me but think they themselves are great and treat me wonderful and I just don't appreciate them. It's amazing how blind they are to their own behavior. Even a couple of times during this last conversation with my mom, I said something like, "yeah, [husband] says the exact same things about me," and that just made her mad some more.

That family dysfunction is intergenerational is a known factor. People seek partners that match them emotionally on some level. Attraction is complicated. Growing up in a family with disorder- this is our "normal". It's possible that on an emotional level, a spouse with BPD feels comfortable and "normal" to us.

But knowing this about another person isn't as much helpful to us as understanding our role in the dynamics. We can't change the other person. You can't change your mother or your exH or any future partners. What can this information about them tell us about ourselves? That is the part we can change.

Attraction is both ways. What attracts a pwBPD to someone else? One is boundaries. They have poor boundaries. There can be an inititial attraction between any two people. Someone with emotionally healthy boundaries may begin to go out with someone who has poor boundaries but they will feel a sense of discomfort and the relationship probably won't last. Those of us who were raised with disorder may not feel that sense of discomfort--- and the relationship continues.

Or we have too strong boundaries and the only people who "get through" to us are people who don't respect boundaries.

One doesn't have to have a disorder to adopt dysfunctional behaviors growing up with a disordered parent. These can be learned behaviors that are functional in the family unit growing up but don't help us later in other relationships. But if they are learned behaviors- we can unlearn them.

Co-dependency is a difficult concept to grasp because I would say in the relationships here, the non is not the "dependent" one in the classic sense. Same in my family. Dad earned the money, and we all were caretakers for my BPD mother. So when people mentioned co-dependency to me, it didn't make sense at first. But it is more of an emotional term than classic dependence. I also didn't recognize the behaviors in myself because they were "normal" in my family. Enabling BPD mother, excusing her behavior, poor boundaries - these were "normal" in context of my family. I'd encourage anyone dealing with relationship issues to look past the term if it's bothersome and learn about the behaviors- it can help.

One valuable piece of advice was that- if I felt upset or triggered by something my BPD mother (or any other person) said or did- rather than see this as something negative- look at it as a learning opportunity- what is it about what was said that led to the reaction. Just because someone says something about us doesn't make it true.

I understand the temptation to accept the "support" from your mother. This is normal and natural right? Except having a mother with BPD is different. I also used to do this. I didn't know any different. Confiding in a mother seems natural. Like you observed "the conversation always derails into something that makes me feel worse that I felt before I talked with her". It is possible that your mother doesn't have the emotional capacity to be of support for you at this time. That doesn't mean you don't communicate to her at all but that you change your expectations and choose what to disclose.

It's a learning experience- it takes work but you seem to have an aware therapist who can help you to learn what behaviors you grew up with that you wish to change. Because it's work you do on yourself- it benefits you in all relationships - not only with your mother or your ex, but other people in your circle as well. It's not comfortable to have a therapist "turn the mirror" on ourselves but it's a way to learn to do better :)

That reminds me of a discussion I read here once, about the lack of empathy from a pwBPD when a family member is sick, and I think that was the conclusion, that they just don't have the emotional capacity to actually help others.  They are entirely focused on themselves and their own wants. 

I think we all had similar experiences in that regard, with the pwBPD - when confronted with another person needing help or even just sympathy - would get frustrated, as though they were upset that someone else was taking up the attention they felt they deserved.  If the pwBPD wasn't able to direct the focus and conversation back on themselves, they were quick to get outright angry.

I've definitely experienced this with both my husband and my mom.

My husband didn't really cross the line into getting seriously abusive towards me until I had our daughter and went on parental leave. Then he was acting like I was on some sort of vacation and got all jealous/resentful that I got to lay around the house all day while he still had to go to work. At the time I told myself it's normal for men to not understand how much work taking care of a newborn baby is, and he's just stressed about being a new dad, and so on. Then COVID happened right after my leave was over, and I told myself he was acting this way because of stress from that.

But things didn't really get that much better, and then when our daughter was 2, I broke my ankle and it took 12 weeks for me to recover. I had to have surgery to screw the bone back together, and was completely off my feet for 2 weeks, then on crutches for 10 weeks after that. I remember sitting in the ER when it first happened and the doctors breaking the news to me that my ankle was broken, I'd probably need surgery, and it takes so long to recover. I had a little panic attack afraid that my husband wouldn't be able to handle things on his own, but then told myself surely he'll rise to the occasion.

Well, he didn't. This was the point when I started seriously considering divorcing him, because this was the time when he started crossing the line into getting violent (or at least threats of violence, throwing things, breaking things, etc.) And this was when I was hobbling around on crutches!

I think you're right that it's not just lack of empathy. Lack of empathy would be someone not quite realizing how hard it is for the other person going through something tough (like my excuse I tried to make for him about men not understanding what it's like to take care of a newborn baby), but they actually get *angry at you* if you are going through a hard time. When my ankle was broken, my husband kept coming up with explanations on how it was really my fault, that I was being careless or clumsy or wearing the wrong shoes or something when it happened, and now here I am causing our family so much trouble.

And when I was a kid, my mom would have a similar attitude whenever I'd get sick or hurt or anything. She'd act like I'm causing her so much trouble and even try to come up with things I must have done wrong to cause this to happen.

Now that I think of it, it also makes them into the victims. Like I broke my ankle on purpose so I could spend weeks lying around watching TV all day instead of doing chores, taking care of our daughter, etc. and now my poor husband has to do all that stuff.

Strangely  enough, my spouse would behave better if I was sick.   If there was one item that made me ponder whether she had something other than uBPD, it was that.  But I always remembered BPD traits were on a spectrum of behavior.  And most everything else seemed to fit, lacking any helpful input from the disinterested-in-a-diagnosis professionals.


Just an aside to others who may be lurking and reading here... In some jurisdictions throwing and destroying property while raging may be considered "actionable".  Verify your local policies - one way or the other - with your police or family law attorneys.

During the last couple of weeks before I gave birth to our now 4  year old daughter, it was noticed that my blood pressure was elevated. I ended up having to be induced because it was determined that I had pre eclampsia. When he found out about this, of course it was all my fault because according to him, my blood pressure was high because I was stressed hiding the hundreds of affairs that I was apparently having. I gave birth to our daughter, he was there for me in the hospital. We go home and my blood pressure would not come down. I was directed to check my blood pressure daily and when I did about 2 days after coming home from the hospital, so 3 days after giving birth to my daughter, it was dangerously high, I think it was 184/122. My doctor advised me to go to the ER right away. He drove me to the hospital. It was during Covid, so he was told to take our new born baby home and they would call with updates about me. He left when I was sitting in the lobby, I was probably brought back 2 minutes after he left. I ended up having to have a horrible procedure whereI was not allowed to move for 24 hours, no food or fluid by mouth, no getting up to go to the bathroom, nothing for 24 hours. He agreed to bring my 2 day old daughter to stay with me at the hospital, which meant that he had to stay as well since I couldn’t move, but then accused me of faking the whole thing and that he “knows” that I left with whoever I was having this apparent affair with between when I checked in to the ER/he left with our daughter and when I got taken back to be seen in the ER!  Still, to this day he says that. All medical problems in my house get blamed on me and these apparent affairs that I have all the time!  Ugh! 

My BPD mother becomes angry and verbally abusive if someone is not feeling well or hurt for some reason. I have not seen her show empathy.

Yes, it is puzzling because lack of empathy would be no response, but why the increase in abusive behavior?

My own explanation is that BPD mother is in Victim position on the Karpman triangle. Everyone else is either Persecutor or Rescuer. If you are not being attentive to her needs, then you are Persecutor. She doesn't see her behavior as being abusive- she sees it as - she's hurt and so she hurts back.

If someone else is feeling poorly or hurt- there's a natural shift in attention to their own situation. They, themselves, are in a position of need- whether it's care, or understanding, or empathy. That doesn't fit into her thoughts scheme. They are not in Rescuer- they must be in Persecutor and doing this on purpose.

Another possible explanation is that she may use illness as a means of getting her needs met. It's hard to know if what is going on is real or not as she sometimes exaggerates it, or feigns it. If she knows she does that, then she assumes other people are doing that too and so gets angry.

Whatever the reason, it helps to reframe this into being a result of their thinking rather than it be personal. It's not about anyone else. It's how they process these situations.

I think both of these dynamics could play a role at the same time, or otherwise explain why they behave this way when confronted with others' needs. 

In my own experience, BPDxw added a "twist" on what others here have described, in that she'd initially be very concerned if I was sick or hurt, and would urge me to go to the doctor if I was reluctant, and get rest/follow the doctors' orders.  This lasted about a day.  But would come up again.  her initial concern was always brought up again as "proof" that she was a caring empathetic person who I didn't deserve or couldn't match in empathy.  I'd get comments about how she told me to go to the doctor & that was proof she cared more for me than I even cared about myself.  Whatever... for a day at least, assuming her concern was ever genuine in the first place.

when I was "out of commission," i.e. wasn't able to help her watch our daughter, put her to bed, help with housework in the evening, etc., BPDxw's concern would quickly evaporate into impatient demands and insults.

On one occasion, after an injury the doctors told me to take extra bed rest; they said take another day off after the pain stops, to make sure I didn't reinjure my muscle or make it worse.  Day 1, BPDxw was normal, but by Day 2 she was making jabs about my toughness and asking how long I "planned" to be hurt for, as though I was faking it all. 

Needless to say, when BPDxw was hurt or sick, she expected a lot more than she ever provided.  I remember when she was ordered bed rest for the last two weeks of pregnancy, my mom flew across the country to stay with us and wait on her.  She related a story that she heard my mom on the phone talking to my brother and laughing about something, while she - BPDxw - was in bed, and "could never forgive the callousness my mom displayed" ... I guess everyone was supposed to mope around silently while she laid in bed, ate ice cream and watched reality TV shows...

I have learned to not expect empathy from my BPD mother. She has enough to deal with with her own feelings. She seems to like it when people emotionally confide in her- but it feels more like she wants the information, but isn't able to be supportive.

I think it's important to have people who can be supportive- and in this case, probably the best option is a counselor- therapist and possibly close friends. Family members may not have the capacity to be supportive.

I assume that anyone connected to my BPD mother may also be influenced by her views and her dynamics. This doesn't mean not speaking to them or having a relationship (unless that's a choice)- it means keeping some emotional boundaries about what to share.

You can assume this for anyone connected to your exH and your BPD mother.

it's unfortunate the "web" can spread beyond the disordered person to include others, but I saw this too.

I found that at least I was usually not surprised by who believed the BS and who saw through it.

After I got divorced, among our mutual friends, the ones who I considered decent people (i.e. had careers,  took care of themselves physically, dressed nicely, had clean homes, etc.) stayed cordial with me, or told me BPDxw was spreading rumors, but they didn't believe her,  me, or they still respected but were staying out of it despite BPDxw's attempts to drag them in.  The ones who I considered losers (never holding down a consistent job, obese, had obvious drinking/drug problems, gossipy, dirty/messy homes) stopped talking to me after it.  Presumably they bought whatever BPDxw was saying.

Same factor within family whenever someone got divorced, the family members that seemed to thrive on drama were the ones who wanted to maintain contact with the soon-to-be persona non grata, etc. 

Birds of a feather...