BPDFamily.com

Hi,
17 years married to 50yo uBPD wife. Episodes were here from the start, but she is highly functioning (works as special education teacher in kindergarten) and most of the time a really wonderful person and a great mother.

When there is an episode, it always comes to her stating that she never loved me at all, that she was with me just for convenience, that she despises me and that I am her biggest mistake.
However, in her normal states, she often says that having our son with me (he is 14 yo, she also has an older 25yo son from 1st marriage) was the best thing that happened to her because she learned what true love and being a parent means.
Lately, as she is entering climax, divorce is a constant topic whenever she gets upset. The problem is that I am no longer sure if this is all just BPD episodes, or did she really start resenting me?
Episodes are no longer that agressive, and she seems to be able to control her bad mouth more after I pointed out recently in one of our "talks" (she screams, I try to keep it down), when she asked me why did I "isolate her emotionally in last 12 years", which is because I find it hard to be physically close to her since she often expresses negative feelings about me, threatens divorce and talks trash.
But for quite long, since only recently, I would never answer to such talk and always try to just let it pass or divert to something somehow. Lately I tried a new "tactic", to try to point out that there are some things that are unacceptable, such as talking trash to me (idiot, imbecil, good for no one, loser, mistake, dirty, dirty family etc) and constantly threating divorce because it makes me feel totally insecure and afraid of what she will do next all the time, walking on eggshells.
Since the COVID it seemed that things are looking up but this year we have tough talks almost daily. Main topic these days is - why are you insisting on this marriage when I want to divorce?

It is really really important to make the right call now because our son, most important priority in both our lives, just entering adolescence, is a very sweet, loving and sensitive kid that grew up, or at least I thought so, feeling loved and thinking that he was born out as a child of love.

But lately she constantly talks that she never loved me, that she had him with me just because she thought I was a good man and deserved to have a child. He is always next door and hears it. I have a secret line of communication with him and slowly year by year I am introducing him to "mummy's strange brain" and explain to him that a lot of times she says things she doesn't really mean.

So right now, with 2nd day of her not wanting to talk to me, insisting that we will "now handle things with a social worker to prepare for divorce", being in her room with closed door constantly - which she would normally do for a couple of hours at most - I am beginning to think: what if our BPD induced conversations and also my behaviour towards her, which was triggered by her BPD episodes, really influenced her as a person and changed how she feels about our relationship?

So the question for everyone is - if a healthy partner "plays well" and keeps up with uBPD partner behaviour, keeping cool and not "taking the bait", but the line between uBPD partner's normal state and episodes starts to blur, so that both extremes get milder (when there is an episode, it is better controlled; when she is normal, she is not super happy and all roses but behaves more normal) - does it mean that in fact BPD is "going away" and the "real" person starts to emerge?

And is it possible that now this new, healthy(ier) person, being as a person somewhere inbetween her previous extremes, now looks back at our history together and, not being aware of her behaviour during incidents, simply conludes that basically our marriage was a waste of time? Because we are not physically close for 12 years, which is off course a total disaster, looking from the perspective of a normal marriage?

Not sure if I explained my dilema in the right way, hope you will understand... Not sure how to put it right, whats really bothering me now.

But the basic question perhaps is the ultimate one - should I still try to do all I can to save the marriage (if that is what I want, and it is), or should I listen to her as if she is "normal" and REALLY wants to divorce, and just say, OK, if that is what you want, I will do it.

My biggest fears are:
1) That I am not doing the right thing because, no matter how hard this all is, she still has issues, and I am probably the only person in the world that can help her lead a more or less normal life because I am aware of her state. So if we divorce, she might enter a new relationship with someone who will be less prepared for this, and I am not sure I would like our son to listen to REAL fights with a man that doesn't like being trash talked to.

2) That, if we divorce, she might project her BPD episodes towards our son who is a lot like her, and might have her traits (I see him getting aroused easily if he is not controlling himself), and that this might trigger his BPD in adolescence without me close, which I would never forgive myself (if there is anything to do to stop it).
The only way to stop 2) would be to try to play the "my wife has mental issues" card during divorce, which would make me her arch enemy and would create even bigger problems for my son's mental health.

So I simply can not see any positive way forward except somehow keeping this marriage work...

I am thinking... just crossed my mind.
Perhaps I should say: OK, lets make a deal. I will do divorce your why, without fuss, we will handle it as adults and try to stay OK so that we can continue to raise a happy child. BUT, I insist then that we go to couple therapy together so that we come out of this better and try to learn something from this experience.
In practice this would mean - let's agree that we are starting the separation, still live together because it is more convenient, and at the same time go to couples therapy for at least 3 sessions (number is arbitrary, perhaps someone has an experience on what minimal number would make sense).
What do I want out of this? Do validate my behaviour and be sure that I am not also the one with issues which to be honest I can not be sure.
Potential downside? That because of what will happen at therapy, we might create a bigger distance between us and thus make it harder to continue co-parenting in the right way. My wife is a sort of a person (not sure if that is a BPD trait?) that just erases people she starts resenting. Just scratches them. So I am afraid that might happen to me if she feels threathend during the therapy (which I think she will, judging by her reaction when I first time recently told her that for 3 months I wrote down what happened during her episodes... she called me a traitor and did not want to see it or have anything with it... so denial would be the most prominent emotion I think).

@olafinski,

Ultimately, you know her best and you need to determine the best path based on your individual insights and feelings.

That said, here's some feedback:  Your idea about how to handle the divorce, while requiring therapy, doesn't line up with some of the exercises / best practices for BPD relationships.

First, your wish to make it amicable is admirable, reasonable, and in everyone's best interest.  It's also aspirational.  However, even if she agrees to this ("well of course!"), if she truly has a b-cluster disorder, we both know that she may not be able to follow through - and she will likely attribute the conflict that follows to you.

Think about how the discussion might play out:  
- of course we should be reasonable!
or
- so you're saying I wouldn't be reasonable?

By signaling that you agree to divorce, you may also run the risk of activating a rejection response, in which she blames you for initiating the divorce (that you don't want?) - because she perceives rejection from you.  As we know, perception of rejection/abandonment = major trigger in BPDs.

The suggestion is:  Tread carefully.  If you want to proceed, find ways to validate her feelings (or at least don't invalidate her feelings).  Don't JADE.  Use the BIFF method.  I know you've been on the boards here for some time, however if those terms are not immediately familiar, please research here.

In regard to requiring therapy... It only works - potentially - if it's her idea.  

If it's your idea, even if she agrees to along with it, BPDs are notoriously difficult therapy participants.  And you'd need a truly great couples therapist who understands high conflict personalities. If she's on board with this direction, perhaps you can find a therapist who claims to have past success helping couples in a similar dynamic recover.  Not easy to find.

To your question about resentment...  The Gottmans (well regarded couples therapists, lots of writing on relationships, etc) include resentment as one of the "four horsemen" of the relationship apocalypse.  It's a very difficult dynamic to overcome in any relationship.

This is because... feelings are real to the person who feels them.

It's one of the things that make distorted perceptions and behaviors so difficult in BPD relationships.  When angry, happy, depressed, offended...  it doesn't really matter if the basis for these feelings is reasonable or rational or fair or not - to a person with disordered thinking, it's real.

A particular challenge is trying to express YOUR feelings to someone with BPD.  ie., explaining that you feel that the BPD's feelings are wrong/unfair/not based on reality, etc...

This invalidates the BPD's feelings, which typically leads to... resentment - rather than some new understanding or enlightenment or gratitude or resolution.  

This is why the advice and exercises here re: "don't be invalidating" can potentially be helpful in reducing conflict and navigating a BPD relationship.

All this said, do you think it's possible for you to sustain the relationship in some way until your kid is a bit older?  There's no right or wrong here.  Some feel that it's better to end a relationship sooner and to start to model "good behavior" for their kid sooner rather than later.  Others feel that the best way to mitigate the influence of a BPD coparent is to remain together as long as possible while actively working to reduce conflict in the home.

There are also the legal/custodial considerations in divorce. Who is considered the "primary parent" today? How much do you share responsiblities?  How is the court likely to view the situation (status quo is often the guiding principle when determining parenting time).  Is your partner likely to agree to a 50-50 schedule (or whatever schedule you would prefer), or is a divorce likely to be a contested process in which the final decision is up to a judge?  What are the guidelines in your state/county re: Child Support and/or Alimony (based on length of marriage and the parents' incomes)?  

Questions:  What's your partner's relationship with her ex like?  How about with the older child?  Do you think those relationship dynamics might be indicators of what things will be like for you if the divorce proceeds at this point?  

Can you conceive of any way to influence the dynamic in your relationship at this point - married or not married?

A lot to consider!  Hang in there.

EyesUp,
thank you SO MUCH for this reply. You've helped a lot already!

Well, unfortunately I am a bit lost right now. I THOUGHT I knew her, but somehow I always saw her as "Good person" + BPD induced "bad person". What is now becoming more and more clear is that this "Good person" was also induced by BPD as an opposite. So the "real" her is someone I really don't know. What is puzzling now for me is - was that concept that I had all the time wrong? To put it differently - was her having BPD a part of why she was with me in the first place? And is it possible that, with her BPD possibly vaning with age, I will discover that the "real" her, without the BPD induced extreme opposites, doesn't like me and really never loved me?
I surely would not like to grow old with a person that REALLY doesn't love me. I see no problem growing old with a person that loves me most of the times, but sometimes loses it and is awful, as long as inbetween she comes back to her senses. But what if with BPD going away what is left is a woman full of resentment, unaware of her undiagnosed BPD behaviour being the main reason for how our marriage looks like? Do you see whats troubling me?
 

Yes, I see it now! Thanks for this, great tip.




 
That is my wish, but I am not really sure what would be the best approach to ensure this? Do I tell her directly, claiming interest of our child as the reason (which is the truth)? Or try to steal some time by trying to slow the process of separation and divorce, claiming facts of life as the reason ("ok we will work towards this but not tell anything to our son and still live together for now")?



This is why I am puzzled... I heard both kind of stories. In my case, I go by how our son feels. I communicate with him and he told me that we would rather stand our constant talking then having to deal with the divorce where we might get into bigger fights, and where he might end having to move to a different apartment etc.

VERY hard to say. We are really together a lot and do things together. I take care of cooking and kitchen, all the bills etc, and his school. She takes care of all health and hygiene matters. Because of our situation he sleeps in the same room with her but spends the day in his room (I snoore too loud and that wakes her up, and we have my stepson still with us so we have no other option but me sleeping in our son's room). I think that she doesn't like the idea of sleeping alone in her room to be honest.



This is also VERY tricky because if I don't play the BPD card, which would ruin whatever is left of our relationship, she will surely get the custody because she has a very stable income, while I am a freelancer, earning 4x more and a primary moneymaker, buy my income flucuates from just a bit higher than her sallary on some months, to 10x her sallary on others. Also here in Croatia it is still more common for a mother to get custody. But, in our country, kids have a voice after they are 14. I am not sure what he would choose, but I think he would choose me as he thinks mum is kind of crazy in a way because of her episodes.
There are two ways to go if we go that road: 1) If we agree on the custody model, then there is no hearing and all is simple. We just need to go to divorce counselling because we have a minor child, and once we do that, divorce is a matter of formality. 2) If we don't agree, then custody is contested and we need to have a hearing with the judge and then it can become really ugly.
Right now I think I would accept 50:50 (week her / week me) at worst, and I somehow think that she would be OK with that. If I play it right and nice, in the interest of our son, she will let me spend as much time with him as I want.
The thing that I am afraid off is that she will not be able to live alone and that she will find a new partner (though she always says that she just wants to be alone and that she will never marry anyone after me because she "had enough of men"). Which would off course be a problem if she displays BPD traits and has episodes with someone not aware of her condition... all in front of our adolescent son, and without me close. That is hard to swallow! Not sure I could live with that to be honest...


I never thought that it would be important, but in this situation, I must say that their relationship is awful but that is mostly because of him always patronising her while displaying minimal will for engagement, always prioritising his personal pleasures before their son. He is rich and his family has enabled their son to travel a lot, learn languages, have several summer homes to use etc... but emotionally they are not relevant.
To be honest, I can not objectively asses how would our life be after divorce in that respect. I just never thought that it might happen. I never, for one second, thought about divorcing her...



Well I just texted her that I will go to therapy because I am aware that I have some issues also (surviving not being physically close to someone for 12 years needs a special kind of personality...). She often claims that I am the kind of guy to whom just having a kid and being creative in his work is enough, that I need no intimacy and that in fact I don't need a partner, but only needed a mother for my child. I really do a lot for the family, I sacrificed ALL my hobbies and stuff that I liked to do that are not compatible with our lifestyle as she can not stand me having fun while she is miserable. Also, she wants to do EVERYTHING together. She never goes to a shopping mall by herself, hates it. And LOVES shopping. So it is really hard for me to accept that I would do all of this without true love and affection?!? She always compares us to room-mates. But she never had a roommate. I did. And I know what roommates do for each other. And what I do for her is something completely different. Very often I go to a store late evening because we don't have some special kind of treat or food she likes... not a problem. Roommates NEVER to that.

When she is OK she praises me to heavens. Tells everyone what a good husband I am, how I do everything for her and the family... This is whats puzzling me.

What is the truth?

I am lost.

Maybe I can help address some of your fears from the child's point of view.

What you have heard your wife say, I heard it too, as a child. Your son has heard it as well.

As much as you want to spare your son from experiencing this situation, he's there, in the house and he hears it. I am glad you have begun to explain the situation to him, without being critical of his mother-but to help him understand there's an issue there. My parents also "normalized it" but as a teen, we know something is different. We can read, look things up. I didn't know about BPD at the time (little was known about BPD then, but I was wondering and questioning).

If I could emphasize one intervention- this teen age boy should not be sleeping in the room with his mother while you are in another room. This is going to be damaging to him- even if nothing "physical" happens between them, this is not emotionally healthy for him.

Biologically - you know what is happening with this adolescent and I can not imagine how he's going to feel when this "happens" in his sleep in the same room as his mother.

In addition- his mother should know better. This isn't normal boundaries.

In the event of a divorce, a teen ager does have a say in who they want to live with, but it may still feel like a betrayal to the child to choose one parent. To ask a child if he or she wants the parents to divorce is putting too much on the child. A 14 year old can't comprehend adult relationships.

My parents argued a lot. At 14, my BPD mother was "confiding" in me about her issues with my father. It was TMI. I had no idea about adult relationships. Asking me what my preference was about divorce would be putting way too much on a 14 year old. That is an adult decision.

Custody is a valid concern- and laws are different in each country. While there are pros and cons to staying or leaving- with your son being so close to adult age- and the laws in the country- if you were seriously contemplating divorce- timing may be a consideration.

My BPD mother frequently threatened divorce. She didn't actually go through with it. I don't know if your wife is seriously considering it or if it's just threats as part of her BPD anger episodes. I would agree with Eyes Up to not be reactive by agreeing or proposing it if you don't really want it.

As to who is she? The wonderful person or the angry raging BPD person. My own opinion is that it's all one person. One side of them doesn't suddenly "disappear" from what I have observed.

Does she really love you or not? Is what she says true? I think a lot of what is said during rages is projection of difficult feelings, and possibly not true in general. I think in the moment, she feels what she feels and it's real to her. Once the "feelings" are out, and she feels better, it's not true. I think it's difficult for pwBPD to maintain constancy. I think we've all had moments of anger at a family member- in that moment, we are upset and angry and don't feel so loving- but we have the constancy of the relationship to hold on to. I don't know if pwBPD can do this as well.

I think the best thing you can do for your son is to take care of yourself and keep this situation between the two adults. He's at the stage where he is gaining autonomy and independence. His body is maturing and hormones are changing. It may appear he's behaving as if he has BPD sometimes, because of these changes but that doesn't mean he will have it. ( there is genetics but it's not 100%). He may also be acting out at times due to the situation at home. He needs to be able to maintain his own boundaries and one is to not be sharing a bedroom with his mother through his teen age years.

Many who arrive here are already parents.  A common statement made by new arrivals is, after describing the many issues, "... but she is a good mother".  Well, she is or she isn't.  She can't realistically be a good mother sometimes and a bad mother other times.  Otherwise the same could be said of criminals.  Of course, no one is perfect, but the point is that if there are serious recurring conflicts and discord, then it can't be ignored or smoothed over as if the negatives didn't impact everyone.

This is not to say that a parent with BPD can't diaper a baby or feed and clothe a young child, but as the child grows older and naturally seeks increasing independence that often is when the problems become more apparent.

As for your child's perspective, probably few children would prefer a separation or divorce - the great unknown.  One of your child's thoughts was that he didn't want to move.  A lot more is involved than location.  I recall one book I read from the 80s quoted, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.

So a factor to consider is how seriously do the BPD traits impact the family?

I think the calling you a good husband and then being critical is a part of the changing emotions with BPD, as well as the intensity of them. And also how they are handled. I think everyone at times feels frustration or anger at a spouse or child, but we deal with that emotion differently. We can still feel momentarily angry and also love and care for the person and stay mindful that if we said something in anger- it would be hurtful. So we either deal with it by speaking more calmly if it's a big issue or letting it go if it's an annoyance because it's not worth it to make a big deal over it.

 I think for someone with BPD, in the moment, what they feel - feels real to them. Then there is projection- so the feelings are projected- rage, saying mean things- and once they are over- the person acts loving and caring again.
There also doesn't seem to be a connection to what has irritated them to the reaction. They might react to something small as if it were a big issue. So this might result in a threat of divorce over something minor and then, when the feelings calm down, not really meaning it.

I don't think it's possible to separate "real feelings" from BPD. Everyone has feelings, but we also process them to decide how we are going to act on them or not. I think BPD affects how these feelings are experienced, and processed, which then also affects how they act on them.

Your part is to use your own boundary about what is true about you and what isn't true about you. If you look to your wife to determine this- it may change with her emotions. What are your criteria for being a good person? If you are doing the best you can, well what she says in a moment of anger may not be true, but also, you being a perfect idealized person when she's happy may not be true either. If your feelings about yourself change with hers, it's going up and down with the waves. Trying to hold steady with your own self image "I do my best to be a good person" while she has varied feelings may be the calmer middle.