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My ex has a no contanct stalking order on me. I am mentally in the right place to sue her for slander and negligence. Negligence in not getting help for herself which would've prevented this. I also will not collect a penny. All the money will go to 3 places lawyers, scholarship at mcclean gunderson and the innocence project

Hey stats.
Sorry to hear you are struggling with legal action from an ex. Do you have an attorney presently? They can advise you on slander and negligence. How is your own state of mind? Do you have any friends or family that are helping you with your stress from this?

My state of mind has changed and finally have proper Mede for my ADHD and therapist helping me. The goal is to donate a BPD scholarship to McLean gunderson that would cover her tuition.

I don't have an attorney but trying to talk to some family friends.

 red-flag  

Please take this advice.  Stop talking to family friends about your legal matters.  Many attorneys do free initial consultations. 

Understand that bad legal advice, is usually worse than none.  There is so much nuance in the law from state to state.  Even different jurisdictions can "view" things differently... .especially when it comes to procedural matters.

If someone takes out a no contact order on you... .you need to retain an attorney to represent you in that matter.  Someone that is ethically bound to protect YOUR legal best interests.


How does a no contact order relate to a lawsuit for slander and negligence? 

FF

I already have the no contact order and because of my judge was told not to fight it because the burden of proof is so small I had no case.

What I am suing for is slander and negligence of reckless behavior. The affidavit has false allegations and I finally can prove from text and pictures her behavior is reckless and she belongs at McLean gunderson.

I live in Illinois and I have a understanding of lawyers. It's important to have someone who listens knows two sides to a story.

Probably each state has its own laws regarding slander (verbal) and libel (written).  I believe the operative phrase is Defamation.  It may be an uphill struggle to get a court to "find" decisively in your favor.  In my case (and many others here) there was so much defamation by reporting/filing false claims.  I lost count of the agencies my Ex sought out.  Police, sheriff's office (one time even demanding an Amber Alert on me), doctors, child therapists, children's protective services (CPS), urgent care, hospital emergency department, regional child abuse center, etc.  She was an expert at claiming, "My son told me... ."  Of course, no one knew what son really told her, if anything.  I read the hospital's logs of one of her first trips to the children's hospital.  She said son was touching his bottom and said she suspected child abuse.  However, the investigative nurse wrote down that son gave no indication of abuse from me and said he wanted to see me more.  In the end they gave her a prescription for empirical (their word) conclusion he might have pin worms.

Frankly, the system isn't very helpful for calling them out on their lies.  Partly it's abuse of the whistle blower concept, they don't want to make a reporter of poor behavior shy away from making future reports.  (Who knows? Maybe the 20th claim might have an element of truth somewhere.  )  It's easy to picture the bad outcome, the Ex is believed or the court defaults to granting protection since the judge doesn't want to deny a claim and then find Ex on the 6 o'clock news.  I believe two favorable outcomes in false allegations are (1) unsubstantiated (passive 'don't know' legalese) or (2) unfounded (stronger but evidently quite rare to obtain from the professionals).  I got unsubstantiated.  I was so righteously shocked.  I recall my lawyer's answer, he said it would be difficult and unlikely to win because how do you prove 'intent to harm'?  I even had a counselor I was seeing at the time say, "If you didn't do anything wrong then don't worry."  In a way she was right, I didn't get arrested or go to jail, but still I was like, "You haven't had your spouse make herself an enemy."

Oh, and yes I too faced a stalking/harassment claim.  I had filed for divorce and custody.  My then-stbEx responded with seeking custody too and a stalking/harassment petition in civil court.  My lawyer said there was risk the judge could grant her a protection order for up to 5 years, renewable too, so we made a deal on "least unfavorable" terms.  My lawyer asked me, Do you want to be around her?  Yikes!  So we dealed:  (1) Preschooler was dropped from the case so family court could handle parenting separately.  (2) No 'finding' of guilt.  (3) We were to stay away from each other but would end in mid-December before the holidays.  (4) My lawyer was gloating, almost giddy, that he was able to get the other lawyer to accept the settlement cast as a certain type of order that could not be renewed.

Thanks for insight wish there was a way I can demonstrate that her behavior was dangerous and preventable and want it donated to BPD hospital for scholarship n innocent project

My issue with whistle blower is don't punish the people reporting it punish the lawyers who take advantage of it

Better said this way... .  I was so righteously outraged.  I recall my lawyer's answer, he said it would be difficult and unlikely to win a libel/slander case because how do you prove 'intent to harm'?  I even had a counselor I was seeing at the time say, "If you didn't do anything wrong then don't worry."  In a way she was right, I didn't get arrested or go to jail, but still I was like, "You haven't had your spouse transform herself into a deadly enemy."  I had a hard time sleeping in those early months.  I would sometimes awaken in the wee hours of the morning, heart racing, unable to return to sleep, feeling sure that this was the night the police would come for me.

I understand it feels like my life isn't important enough for anyone to care about my feelings and just want to make sure this never happens again to someone else

Join the club.  However, a conclusion expressed here is that courts are hamstrung by their policies, procedures, laws and case law.  It's a judicial system, not a justice system.  Also, courts typically don't try to fix people, especially ones who don't want to get fixed.  So they deal with them as they are.  And sometimes with kid gloves that just enables or entitles them even more.

A person I know sued a priest for rape n forced that priest into mental hospital. Why is that priest held accountable but BPD ain't

Was told by who?

FF

My thoughts lean more towards "malicious prosecution" rather than some sort of defamation.

Most of those statutes have a very rigid checklist to even file the suit... usually a "good outcome" in court is the requirement.  I would certainly ask a lawyer if the status of the protection order affects your ability to file.

General overview:  These statutes are for use when someone uses the "legal system" to gain advantage in another matter.  Most statutes and examples are in custody cases... .divorce... .that kind of thing.

Sometimes these statutes can apply to governmental misconduct as well... .not really applicable to this thread though...

Bottom line... .the law in each state will apply and you need a lawyer to help you navigate that.  I would recommend a lawyer that has experience in "high conflict" cases where the other party is not "being honest"... .but "manipulatively" using the legal system with false claims, filings and obstruction.

Very different than two parties that disagree yet use the existing laws to their full advantage.

FF

Need to reword it. Went to see a lawyer whose daughter I know. He said this is horse crap you did the right thing but this judge throws these out like candy. He kept on saying I'd help but it won't make a difference.

The judge who handles these cases is not fair. I tried fighting it but that same judge wouldn't give me a chance.

Did you retain this lawyer and did the lawyer appear in court on your behalf.  Or did you go into court yourself?

FF

Thank you lord that makes sense. Are you a lawyer? I wish I could post 2 pieces of info what they used against me. The affidavit contradicts itself

No I didn't. He was upfront and honest and didn't think to fight it. When I tried to fight it my lawyer imo made a mistake that would have increased my chances on vacating the motion.

Have you retained a lawyer... .any lawyer in this or a related matter?

Did you have a lawyer in the courtroom with you when you went in front of a judge?

Clarity matters... .not trying to be mean here... .but sometimes the slightest nuance... can really matter.

FF

No... .

Fortunately... .or unfortunately  (depending on point of view... .   ) I've had a lot of professional and personal exposure to lawyers and the legal field.

In the Navy... .I had a JAG lawyer assigned to me during 6 years in command.  Also JAG lawyers are involved with helping aviators interpret rules of engagement.

Then as a civilian executive... .also had lawyers I worked with on weekly basis.

Plus... .personally... .and in my real estate "side business"... .lots of lawyers.  I'm in the middle of a legal mess at the moment (tangentially related to BPDish stuff... .my wife has interferred some and made it worse)... .last court appearance I had two lawyers with me.

If things play out the way I think it will... .legal team increases to 4-5 lawyers sometime this summer as I press ahead with "counter claims".  Fingers crossed... .I think the tide has turned.


FF

Last thoughts for now:  Why is a lawyer important?

Most people erroneously think the lawyers highest and best use is the "hearing in front of them".  It's always great to win... .however the appeals system often unwinds a lower decision.

Good lawyers combine "tactics" with "strategy".  Tactics is the next hearing.  Strategy is how to combine the result of that hearing into a  "legal record" that will survive the appeals process.

Last time I went to hire lawyers (the two guys representing me now)... .I was completely unfamiliar with that state and professionally or personally didn't know anyone in the legal system in that state. 

So, I called one of the lawyers I have used in real estate over the years... .someone that I now consider a friend as well. 

Step 1... .he laughed his a$$ of at me at the situation I found myself in... .  After I suffered through the appropriate amount of ribbing from him... .the real advice came.

Step 2:  I needed to interview several and examine their history.  He recommended two "discriminators".  I wanted to find someone who had prevailed in appeals court and/or prevailed in federal court.  A direct quote from him... ."Anyone can put on a bad suit and play ball in district court... ."

Step 3:  I found a guy that was somewhat famous in that state for a "win" he had at the appeals level.  That case is now cited as precedent.

I hired him and his associate and it has been a wonderful decision. 

I certainly wish I wasn't in this situation... .but I am confident in my long term outlook.  Even though not every court appearance has gone my way.

For those wondering... .yeah... .legal bills are huge.

We have a plan in place for recovery of those... .long term.

FF

I work in investment banking now.

Was told appeals are money down the drain especially since I first said no objection ( which was because I lacked tangible evidence I do now).

It seems like it is better odds and more cost efficent to press my own charges and make sure my story gets told.

The problem with no contest or no objection is that it goes in the side door to let whatever happen.  You don't say you're guilty but you let all conclude that.  I read somewhere long ago, probably 'Splitting' or 'Stop Walking on Eggshells', that there is a difference between letting whatever happen versus defending your innocence.  Yes, both may result in the same bad outcome, to a certain extent that may be out of your hands but, and this is the key, in the latter instance despite a RO, TO or conviction you can always and forever still maintain your innocence.  If you just let them do whatever or even admit to lesser charges (plea deals typically admit some level of guilt) then you can't later maintain your innocence, well, not in a legal scenario.

Problem is that those lawyers who advised to just take the lesser evil weren't good advocates for you.  Not when dealing with an aggressive partner or ex-partner who no longer idolizes you but now rejects you and blacklists you.  You need to seek out, as FF wrote, problem solving lawyers who are very experienced, comfortable going to trial if need be, assertive and proactive.  Most lawyers do okay handling the typical cases.  But our xPD cases are different and need more appropriate handling.  Often their defendants ARE guilty of something, that's why plea deals admitting some level of guilt lets them get off from facing even more valid charges.  Those lawyers file forms, make appearances, hold hands, make deals and prefer to settle cases than take them to trial.  You don't need a hand holder, you need proactive strategies.

As for pressing your own charges, I don't know how well that would work.  When my Ex and I first separated, I counter-filed my own charges.  She had no proof but I at least had some.  Her lawyer withdrew her petition and so it was dismissed.  My case was not withdrawn but it was still dismissed.  I think most courts view women as fitting the 'victim' scenario much better than men.  (That was family court.  At that same time municipal court had charges pending against her for Threat of DV.  You can guess that outcome too, though she admitted threatening my life, she was ruled Not Guilty and that case was dismissed.)  A man going in saying "I'm the victim and target" may get more disbelief than serious concern.  Not right but that can be what many of us males face.

Thank you for the response. It is frustrating that no one cares enough about me to give me good advice.

The other part was I was suffering from depression and trauma and wasn't able to gather evidence that I can now. I can prove from photos of weight loss her teeth that there is physical tangiable evidence of her hurting herself. Back then all I could say was she has a mental illness that isn't being taken care of.

We feel for you.  But we're remote anonymous peer support, not local lawyers with legal advice.  So much of what we write is from our collective experiences.  If we write that certain tactics probably won't work, it's because in our experience most such attempts don't succeed.  However, for all we know it might work for you.  So while we don't say a firm Yes or No, we do comment on typical outcomes, that you need solid strategies to overcome the typical outcomes, even suggest some that have sometimes been successful in the past.

Supporters are crucial too so you don't get too discouraged and get stuck in your life circumstances.  Support is a variety... .experienced and capable lawyers, insightful counselors/therapists, trusted friends and family and of course peer support such as here.  We've been there, done that.  Learn from us, learn what worked for us as well as what didn't work so well.

Hopefully we've educated you about some of the outcomes of strategies you've pondered.  But I repeat, what can often fail does not mean it will fail for you in your location and in your circumstances and forever.  For example, many here who have children wish that had custody, decision making or tie breaker status to reduce the obstruction and conflict about parenting.  Most don't get that, at least not at first.  When I first appeared in court my ex was facing charges of Threat of DV, yet because I had a regular work schedule she got temp custody and temp majority time.  "Temporary" turned out to be over two years for the entire separation and divorce process.  Finally in the final decree I moved up to equal status and equal time.  But the problems continued.  It was another 6 years before I got both custody and majority time (during the school year).  I was fortunate, many here don't manage to overcome the ex-spouses obstructions, conflict and chaos.  My point is that every case is different due to location, the behaviors, the judges, the professionals around the court process, etc.  The best we can do is provide peer support... .emotional support, sharing our experiences, pointing out ways to improve the future.

The other option here is to let it go.  

I'm not trying to invalidate your experience because I absolutely believe that false allegations have been made against you, I watched it happen with my SO who was accused of child abuse because he threw a phone into a couch (guess who he was talking to? yep his uBPDxw).  That became, he threw the phone and it shattered into a million pieces, to he threw the phone at his kids, to he wouldn't let the kids call their mother, to he wouldn't let them leave the house! False allegations of abuse by my SO's uBPDxw continued through the divorce and after.  She is always a victim everyone is doing something to her, she needs help, she can't work, she can't drive, her kids won't talk to her... .common denominator here is her and her behavior.

Initially other people buy the victim stories and try to help her but over time most have figured out through their own experience with her what the truth is.  The people who supported her 6 years ago during the divorce are no longer in her life.  My SO's vindication has been when those people figure out on their own that she is the problem.  And in the end does it really even matter what these people think?  You know who you are and you know what happened, people that know, love and care about you are not going to believe the BS and those are the people you want to surround yourself with.
 
So I totally get where you are coming from, I understand the hurt, the anger, the desire to fix the pwBPD in your life and vindicate yourself.  But IMO moving on and living your life to the fullest and with integrity is the best way to go.  You can't make a pwBPD do something they don't want to do or are in denial about... .like seeking therapy.  You can only control yourself and your actions.  

Do you think the continued conflict is a good thing for you? Why would you want continued contact and engagement with a person that has falsely accused you?  To me common sense says stay away from this person and stop the drama.

Panda39

Why I said no objection because until she gets the right help she won't get better. But after learning about what BPD do to us and how the injsutice system works I want to do my part to make sure someones life is saved and judges and police are aware of this.

Hey... .can you help us understand how a legal pleading is related to your opinion on your wife's mental health prognosis?

Have you ever retained an attorney about this protection order?

Did you have an attorney with you in court when you entered your plea?

Listen... .we are anonymous support group.  In my opinion, it's ok to be open here about your thought process and how decisions were made.  The more info we have... .the better advice you are likely to get.

Or... .if there are reasons you wouldn't want to answer those questions... .I'd be interested in understanding those reasons.

Back up a sec to big picture stuff:  Being in a relationship with a BPDish person is like having your emotions regularly scrambled.  Sometimes it's euphoric... .sometimes it sucks.

Another advantage to retaining an attorney to advise you is that they should be "above the emotions".  You need that... .  We all do.

FF

The problem is that she needs to accept she has a problem and want to get help.  Forced court ordered therapy will not work unless she is an active participant, that she sees she has a problem and she wants to work on fixing the problem.  As the old saying goes "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink"

In terms of the justice system no it isn't perfect they have to work within the confines of the law, appear impartial make decisions on what is presented to them and how it is presented to them.  Sometimes they will and do get it wrong, other times they get it right and still other times it's a split decision.

In my SO's case he showed up at court to face his allegations of child abuse, his "soo concerned for the well fare of her children", ex didn't bother to show up (out getting a manicure with her daughter but told the judge she was sick), he brought the weapon of abuse the "shattered phone" that wasn't even broken, told his side of the story and was told he had to get anger management therapy and there was no evidence of abuse... .the ex pressing the charges wasn't there to witness the phone throwing, no pictures of injured kids that supposedly had a phone thrown at them, no ex or kids in court to testify against him and his story of events was completely logical.

So did my SO need anger management therapy?  I would say no he rarely lost his temper but the court was only looking at this one incident.
Why would the judge assign anger management therapy?  I think in reaction to my SO's actions in this case but also to give the ex a small victory... .showing impartiality and erring on the side of protecting the kids based on what was presented to him in court.
The bigger win was the child abuse was unfounded.  In my SO's case I think the judge did what he could with what was presented to him.

Was the wife punished, corrected, called out on her false allegations no because that was not what was before the judge.  Could my SO have taken her back to court sure, but to what end?  She has a mental illness that she is in denial about, how is a court of law going to fix that? Is that even their role?  She could have been found guilty of perjury been sent to jail, paid a fine, and been sent to court ordered therapy but if she is in denial and doesn't want to solve the problem she would do what was required by the law (go through the motions) and be right back to her usual behaviors. 

IMO police and judges are not looking at things the same way you or I might they have to work within the confines of what they do.  The police are trying to help people when they are called, they see what is in front of them, they want to make sure no one is in danger, or they want to prevent or end conflict... .they are not there to make mental health diagnoses or take sides.  They are human and they might get it wrong.  Judges aren't mental health professionals either that isn't their role.  They too are human and they too might get it wrong.

I hear your frustration, your anger, your pain, your desire to take action and your desire to keep what happened to you from happening to someone else, but I just don't think going back to court is the solution.


Panda39
 

I don't want her to get court ordered therapy because that doesn't work. Therapy honestly doesn't work for people with BPD because there is 24 hours in a day and 7 days a week and they are only being held accountable for maybe 1-2 hours a week if that by a therapist.

I want her to have to give money to Mcclean Gunderson if she doesn't want to get help than so be it, but admit your mistake help society and provide assitance for someone who wants the help but can't afford it.

Is this what is at the heart of it? "admit your mistake" What if she isn't capable of that?  Fear of abandonment and all the dysfunctional things someone with BPD does because of that fear causes a lot of shame.  Shame is a large part of BPD and hiding their poor behavior and shame or blaming poor behavior and shame on others is what they do to emotionally survive... .it's part of the dysfunction, part of having BPD.  Admitting her mistake may not be possible for her to do.

My SO's uBPDxw sent their D20 to a private liberal arts college out East with the promise that a "Family Trust" would cover the majority of her tuition.  My SO tried talking to their daughter about the non-existent family trust, but she was 18, had a huge desire to go to this College, asked her mom for proof that was provided to her and she believed (wanted to believe), and wanted to believe that her mom had come through for her. D20 came home for Christmas break and was asked not to return back to school because Tuition for her first semester had not been paid for.  After her scholarships and student loans D20... .yes she... .she was 18, she was the student, she was responsible for payment was now in debt to the tune of $15,000 because her mother failed to pay the school.  Eventually after D20 refused to see her mother for sometime following this incident mom apologized and in the same breath started telling D20 that she would send her to another school.  Was it a genuine apology? Was it lip service to get her daughter back? Did it mean anything when the follow up was the same dysfunctional behavior?  Unlikely we will ever know.  I do know that it didn't feel sincere to her daughter.  She has minimal contact with her mother these days.

BPD is a dysfunctional mental illness, admitting a mistake is what someone healthy does, not so much with someone with BPD.
I wish for my SO's daughters' sake, your sake, and everyone on this website that you would all get an apology you certainly all deserve one.

I'm not trying to be "Negative Nellie" here but you might be setting your expectations too high, she may simply not be able to do what you want her to do... .court or no court.

Why not put your energy into creating a scholarship for McLean?  IMHO that would be a healthier direction to put your energy and you could fulfill the desire to help someone else that wants it.

Panda39

Thats what the money is going towards. Whether it is for her or someone else it is going towards McClean. I wish I could show you the letter I wrote her and her family ( way before I figured out she had BPD). How her parents could believe her is something I will never understand.

They are her parents.  They may not see the dysfunction because they live in it, they could be in denial about their daughter's issues, they may just be "circling the wagons" because blood is thicker than water. 

My advice is to let all of these people, their drama, and their dysfunction go (I know easier said than done when you feel wronged) it sounds like none of them will see your point of view, let alone believe it. You can't make someone do something they don't want to do.  You can only control what you do.  What do you get out of banging your head against this particular wall?  Why not let go and move on with your life?  Create new and healthier relationships.

Don't JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) all it does is create circular arguments and add to the drama.  Below are links to a Workshop on JADE and another on Stopping Circular Arguments that might be helpful.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

Take Care,
Panda39

Is the ex and ex wife? Or ex girlfriend?

Perhaps I missed it earlier... .trying to make sure I understand

Please also confirm if there are any children involved?  Any joint financial assets.  Such as a house you own together.  Any other legal ties... .other than the obvious subject of this thread.

I could see my advice changing based on some of these answers.  Want to make sure I have it right.

FF

Just a ex girl friend

There are a few things I can't let go of. The first thing is something I am working on with my therapist and that is things being taken away from that make me happy. Because she ahs BPD I understand why I was pushed away but don't get what I do to constantly deserve losing things and people who make me happy.

The second is Brian Banks and Duke Lacrosse.

The therapy is a good thing and a great place to work on the topics you mention. I think it is a healthy thing to take a look at ourselves and our role in our relationships with other people.  If we can improve ourselves our relationships can improve too.

The second... .Were you falsely accused of rape and found guilty? 

Panda39

OK... .this does simplify things some.

Listen.  My advice is that you interview a couple of attorneys.  Make sure and take the evidence... .take the restraining order... take anything you believe relevant.  Get a couple opinions... .perhaps even three if there is a legal pathway (even a hard one) to change the status of the RO.

The third opinion would only be if you get one guy that says "yes there is a path and another that says no path".  If two guys tell you that it can't be done... .then it likely can't be done.

I DO know that old restraining orders get dug up to embarrass people... .especially political types.  So... .if there is a way to make the RO disappear from your record... .always good to have a clean (er) record.

I do NOT know the impact of a regular guy having an RO on your record.  Let's say you get stopped by police 5 years from now... .I simply don't know if it would show up or not.

I would ask the attorneys about impact of this staying on your record.

OK... .enough with legal stuff.

Really good you have a T.  Put most of your effort there. 

 |iiii

FF

It is a stalking no contact stalking order and is a civil offense not a criminal offense. It is not on my record and for the most part isn't a inconvenience on me.
Because of me learning about BPD and I can question her teeth grinding and reduction in boob size. Now that I am over being depressed and my adhd is getting taken care of easier to think at full capability.

What happened to me may be "minor" but if I don't have the courage to do something than who will it affect next.

I want to clarify... .  I understand it likely didn't feel minor at the time... .perhaps even now.

I would encourage you to discuss you thinking in the quote above.

I am much more interested that you protect your legal interests... .even a civil order.  If you focus on that, I believe that it will have the affect of helping others.

Boundaries go both ways... your primary job is not to save others here.  It is to protect your interests... .

Just sayin... .

FF

I agree with formflier your job isn't to rescue others that might come in contact with your ex.  Your job is to take care of you.  

So you have 2 opinions that have been presented here... .see an attorney to protect your interests (like fight the decision against you) or let go.  

What I'm not hearing anyone advocate is going after your ex in court to show the world her true colors or to get an apology out of her.  I think we are all encouraging you to think about yourself, your healing, your interests... .focus on taking care of you.

I like your idea of creating a scholarship a McLean it seems a constructive way to help someone that needs it and wants it... .ultimately that could lead to someone else avoiding your experience which is your goal.

Panda39

Tried fighting decision in court lost so why I'm going after/ want to

Think of this as getting a couple opinions... .after the fact.  Perhaps there is nothing that can be done.  I highly doubt it... .but perhaps.

New evidence, especially medical evidence for you showing your were not at your best, perhaps a grumpy judge... .perhaps some suspect legal advice... etc etc.

Remember... I'm not a lawyer... .but that would be the list of items that I would put in front of a lawyer... .with all your papers and evidence and see if something can be done.

Most important question for each of your interviews is their opinion of leaving it alone... .  What happens when  background check pulls it up?  What happens when... .xyz?

That is your benchmark.

Compare that to possibilities that they offer.

FF

I'm a white male so there fore it's not possible for me to be depressed according to the court.

You can't prove a mental illness in court but you can show evidence of that illness. I'm at full health n can find the evidence to prove it.

Feels like so many people in the world want me to die based on this whole situation