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When living apart, is it possible to end the relationship conflict with your BPD partner? I mean, is it possible to stop being verbally attacked and devalued?

I'm intrigued with this because Pook075 said (in another thread (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=3061544.0;all)) that he succeeded in doing that with 3 different people that have BPD: ex-wife, daughter, and "best friend's little sister." In the case of an intimate partner, it would be harder, but can the same approach work?

Pook075 said the drama ends as soon as they figure out that "you are always there for them." But obviously this is not enough, because this was already a true fact during his marriage and also in Rowdy's marriage, but both of them got devalued and left by their partners anyway (as they said in the thread).

So I was thinking maybe the trick to getting along with someone with BPD is to never exhibit any emotion that is negative and indicates the lack of acceptance or approval of something about them (their behavior, their choices, their thoughts, etc.) or can be interpreted in that way. Here are a few examples I made:

- I am tired of this behavior of yours. (not accepting something about their behavior)
- Can't you just admit that you have lied? (not accepting the lie and the lack of disclosure)
- You are making our kid watch too much screen. (not accepting the choices)
- You are freaking out all the time! You are a strange person, aren't you? (not approving the overreactions)

So is this about the concept of "radical acceptance"?

But you know, we can't accept everything. There are things that are completely unacceptable, such as cheating or doing something that is dangerous for the kids. Is it possible to reframe anything that we don't accept/approve in a way that won't trigger them? Should we just shut up for a while and wait for our negative emotion to disappear before talking?

Hi SuperDaddy,

I would also like to know the answer to this question.

I can only tell you from my own experience that it wasn't enough to always be there for him.

I never used phrases like the ones you listed either. In the initial co-dependency phase, I tried to please him in every way and would not have spoken to him like that.

Later, when I'd really had enough, I had already read/heard so much about BPD and NPD that I knew validation and non-violent communication were the better options.

The fact was that this couldn't stop the outbursts.

In the last nine months of the relationship, I even asked artificial intelligence for help in critical situations when exchanging text messages, asking for the best possible, most empathetic and validating response, but one that was calm and clearly setting boundaries at the same time.

An example of a response I gave after distorted facts, blame shifting and accusations came up: ‘Xy, I have read what you wrote and I can see that you are very upset. At the same time, I stand by what I said: I cannot take responsibility for something that is not mine.’

This was followed by a complete break in contact after further accusations.

I have also added the following to such responses: ‘... We can now take a 30-minute break and continue writing when we have calmed down.’

That did not help either.

A therapist once said that in such moments, the old trauma is triggered too strongly and without the tools they would learn in therapy, they have no chance of calming themselves down.
Their nervous system is in survival mode and clear thinking is no longer possible. They feel like the helpless child again.

I am curious to hear what experiences others have had!

Hi hiiumaa ,

Thanks for your response. So you have never criticized, rejected, or disapproved of anything about him? And you tried to avoid saying no?


I'm curious, what was he asking you? Did he want you to stay in your place or store something there so that he would have an excuse to go to your place frequently?

In all of my relationships, whenever I need to say NO and put limits, I do it firmly, even in the beginning of the relationship. I think that has been helpful in a way, but saying no when they are dysregulated is a problem. Maybe the problem is within the emotion we feel when we say it? Maybe saying no when feeling empathy would work? I know we can't just turn a switch and choose our emotions, but just saying.

Hi SuperDaddy,

That's interesting. When you say that you said no clearly from the outset in your relationships, does that mean that your partners knew that about you from the start?

For a while, I had the theory that a ‘no’ from me became increasingly difficult for him to tolerate over the course of the relationship because I was so co-dependent at the beginning and really went out of my way to please him and avoid dysregulation at all costs, and only started to set boundaries over time – and this boundary setting was simply unfamiliar to him.

Just to mention it: trying to please him didn't help either. He still became dysregulated – because it could also have been the outside world that triggered him and I was only being used by him to regulate his emotions.

To answer your question: no, I never criticised him and I also made a conscious effort not to use ‘you’ messages.

But of course I had to say no from time to time. For example, when he wanted to meet up with me at a time when I simply couldn't because I had to be there for my son or had an important appointment, etc. That was enough to make him feel rejected. And no matter how lovingly and compassionately I told him that I knew it made him sad and that I myself thought it was a shame, but that it couldn't be changed and we would make up for it, it didn't help.

Weeks later, he often told me the exact wording of HOW I should have communicated my rejection or my ‘no’ to him, and every time I felt really cheated because I had said it almost exactly that way. BUT - in his dysregulated state, it clearly did not come across that way to him.

The situation in which I gave him the above answer was after he got drunk on New Year's Eve. Since he is a binge drinker and I have already experienced bad situations with him when he is drunk, I communicated to him a long time ago that I would have no contact with him as long as I could not be sure that he was sober. I need a clear, honest statement from him: ‘I'm sober again.’ He knows that.
Nevertheless, he contacted me drunk on New Year's Eve via text and tried to call me. I did not respond and stuck to my boundary.
After that, he sent me photos and jokes for days and wished me a happy new year. I replied to every message with my standard text saying that I cannot have any contact if I cannot be sure that he is sober. I wanted to signal to him that I am there, but that he has to position himself for any exchange.

This caused him to freak out and shift the blame: I had withdrawn over Christmas, he had had crises that I hadn't responded to (I didn't know anything about this because HE had withdrawn over Christmas), HE had contacted me on New Year's Eve, but I hadn't contacted him (of course not – he was drunk and my boundaries apply)...


I haven't yet had a situation where he left things at my place and wanted to use that as an excuse to come over to me. But I have had a situation where he wrote to me saying that he had gastroenteritis and was feeling sooo ill, and he wanted me to drive the 50 km to him IMMEDIATELY, even though he knew full well that I couldn't because of other commitments that day. I didn't have a car that day either because it was in the garage. I had already texted him early in the morning that I would cook him some soup and bring it to him first thing the next morning.

So he knew I was thinking of him and cared about him, and I told him that he could of course call me in an emergency and we would find a solution.

I wrote to him in an incredibly loving and empathetic way, saying that I could imagine he was feeling awful.

It didn't help. He insulted me, accused me, played the poor victim that nobody loves... He didn't want the soup anymore, and he didn't want me to visit him the next day either. Instead, he started drinking.

To be honest, I don't think you can counteract a dysregulated state if it was a strong trigger.

Maybe someone else has had different experiences. I'm curious to hear about them!

SuperDaddy, something just occurred to me: he took a certain antidepressant for a few months. During that time, it was sometimes possible to catch him! He was in a completely different mood, with significantly less tension in his body. It was really noticeable.
Unfortunately, his doctor switched him to a different medication at some point because it allegedly caused abnormalities in his ECG. Since then, everything has been back to normal and he is impossible to catch when the dysregulation starts.

Likely neither you nor I nor many here ever had a realistic ability to stop the pattern of attacks (outbursts).

While that sinks in, we do have practical tools, communication skills, time-tested strategies, and more to help us address the other person's outbursts, rants and rages.  One approach may work for a while, until it doesn't.  Then other approaches can be included.  And so on.

Some of us have had people with BPD traits (pwBPD) that were relatively mild.  Perhaps described as quiet Borderlines.  They probably are more receptive and responsive to long term therapy.  Our better boundaries and communication skills may help, distance apart may help, meds may help, but the key is focused therapy.  And not just for the other, we too can benefit from therapy.  Partly it is us finding ways to address the issues better but in the final analysis it's in the other's hands as to whether they will face their core issues and truly seek recovery.  (And some therapists don't even try to name a disorder or name the therapy since even that can trigger denial and resistance.)

I hope that's the case because some who arrive here don't stay long enough or return to share their long term outcomes.

Just as all the members here can't be lumped into one neat category, the same goes for our loved ones, none of us have identical personalities.

“But you know, we can't accept everything. There are things that are completely unacceptable, such as cheating or doing something that is dangerous for the kids. Is it possible to reframe anything that we don't accept/approve in a way that won't trigger them? Should we just shut up for a while and wait for our negative emotion to disappear before talking?“

Hi SuperDaddy. No, this is a bad move IMO. As you mentioned, I was discarded. There were behaviours that I wanted to discuss with my wife but didn’t, because I knew it would trigger her. Maybe if I had a discussion with her then the outcome would have been different….. who knows.

What I will say from my own personal experience and other peoples accounts on here, is that changing your approach after being in a relationship for a significant amount of time is going to change their perspective. I would never question her behaviour, or pick an argument or say anything that could trigger her for probably the last decade of our relationship, but if she wanted to start an argument she would bring up any possible slight I’d said against her 20 years ago. If I’d done something she didn’t like even before we were in a relationship that could be brought up. Or if she perceived I looked at her funny, or if I’d breathed out slightly louder than normal, if I’d slightly raised an eyebrow, or rolled my eyes.

Once in that zone, I don’t think there is anything you can do to stop the drama until it has been played out in their own head.

*is NOT going to change their perspective*

Ok, I'll try to answer my own question.

Yes, communication is important. By constantly suppressing ourselves from speaking to them (as an attempt to avoid their outburst), we end up having collateral effects that will tend to damage the relationship.

I agree with all of you that it is usually impossible to counteract a dysregulated state (as hiiumaa said), and over time they may develop a hyper-triggering state in which it is impossible not to trigger them (as Rowdy said). However, if we take action to break the cycle before irreversible damage takes place, then the interaction can completely shift, giving new hope for the relationship.

The way you can break the cycle is to remove yourself from the interaction in a way that makes the interaction conditional (e.g., you will not interact if you feel like they are being disrespectful in any manner). In my case, I was being persecuted all day long, so I had to stop living with her. For those that don't work from home and have a bigger house, they may manage to mostly avoid their partner when needed while still living together. Though communication should still exist.

For those who already live apart and still get pushed away even when using the tools (such as hiiumaa), the situation is harder. Because the pwBPD is in a more difficult state. But it doesn't mean that it would be impossible to relate to that person. It's just harder.

It is important that we have the emotional strength and resilience needed to take the lead in the relationship. Then, for being admired as their strong figure, we may influence them and guide the pwBPD into treatment. But all of that are traits that those with codependency will have difficulty expressing. Allowing the pwBPD to take the lead in the relationship is a doomer.

In my case, moving apart did break the cycle. Over the 5 days after moving out, she still did some minor attacks on me, and I have listed some of them below:

- "I already apologized for that, because I'm not like you (Arrogant)."
- "So stop doing NONSENSE!"
- "You don't like anyone, you only like yourself."
- "What's your problem? Have you always been this arrogant?"

I know those were very minor offenses, but they came unexpectedly. After so much time taking it, I got to a point of zero tolerance. But I feel like she is still getting used to the new setting, in which I can effectively ignore the drama, and it just moves me away. So I think she is lowering the tone and being "domesticated."

The fact that she got the diagnosis recently is also helpful, because now she understands that her close relationships would not be chaotic if she didn't have that disorder. She told me that her mother keeps triggering her, but she isn't reacting. She said that she is treating her mom with dear.

She has already scheduled the first DBT session, and we will try a medication that targets the EOS. According to one study, it seems like this is the only medication that is effective to help with BPD symptoms. It's not a controlled study, but for me it's a great finding.

And hiiumaa ...

When he says he wanted you to drive into his place "IMMEDIATELY", I think this was actually an EOS emergency. And since you didn't fix it for him, he medicated himself with alcohol. When you begin to understand how the underactive EOS makes them act in those ways, it begins to make sense.

He probably feels like it's unfair to keep yourself away every time he is "medicating himself". I'd rather change the naming of this boundary so that he understands that it's about the aggressiveness that emerges from a drunk state and not just the drinking itself.

The trick is trying not to enter into the Karpman triangle drama game. There exists a lot of literature about this, it's very easy to find. Personnaly, I read 'The Karpman triangle explained' from Chris West, and 'How to break free of the drama triangle and victim consciousness' written by Weinhold & Weinhold. We all do drama, we learned it from our education. We see it on TV (e.g. sit-coms are based on this priciple). But BPD-persons are experts in this game. They start blaming you, i.e. the 'game invitation' (BPD =  persecutor, and you the 'victim'), and if you react the wrong way, a switch will happen, turning you into the persecutor and the BPD becoming the victim. According to Weinhold & Weinhold, we all tend towards the 'victim' corner of the triangle (but not all experts agree on this view): we get things done without having to ask for it. And BPD-persons love to be the victim: that leaves you being the persecutor or the rescuer (the third angle of the triangle).
Since I read these books, I became more aware of the dynamics that play a role in communication. I try not to respond to these 'game invitations' anymore. And that helps a lot. I still have to figure out how to proceed in a more effective way, but not saying anything and listening seems to work most of the times. As is stated in literature, if the R&B (raging & blaming) stays underneath a 5/10 (on a scale with 10 being the worse situation possible), there is a fair chance to get the BPD-person to calm down again. One of the replies you can use is 'what do you expect from me'? By not responding to their game invitations, you might stay under the violance limit of 5, and get back to normal more often than was the case.
I hope this is of any help. 

Hi Lauters ,

Thanks, I think this is helpful, but this is not enough to deal with partners that have BPD.

The need to be a rescuer or persecutor is something that will drag us deep into the drama and may keep us stuck in the dysfunctional relationship. But I think most of us don't have this intrinsic need, and yet there the person with BPD will find other ways of pulling us into the drama.

---

For many of us, like me, it's more about seeing a big problem in our partner and trying to fix it. That's why autistic people are drawn to BPD partners. Because autistic people like puzzles and like to solve problems, and BPD partners are real puzzles and look like problems to be solved. I'm not autistic, but that applies to me. At least I gave up on solving it by myself, as I now rely on professionals and hopefully an effective prescription drug to "fix" her.

For instance, with my first wife, things were calm most of the time, so I was happy in not having anything to fix. Then, as she developed postpartum psychosis, I tried to fix it for some time, but soon I gave up because I couldn't help and I wasn't attracted to her anymore.

In my current relationship, however, it's different because I like her more, so she is worth fixing. It's not because I want to be a rescuer. It's because I still see hope in her. And after she is fixed, she will be able to function and work, which will already be great. And then I might even bring her back home, but I don't need to.

---

But I don't think that the desire to fix them, on its own, will pull us into the drama. I think we get the drama when either:

1) We have expectations of them that aren't met, from our perspective
2) They have expectations of us that aren't met, from their perspective
3) We live together and are always available as a drama target

So even we who don't have the need to be a rescuer or prosecutor may get pulled into the drama simply because we have expectations about our partner. The conflict may be inevitable just for the fact that we expect something from them. When you expect intimacy, closeness, attention, consideration, faithfulness, etc., then those expectations of yours may be used by them to create drama. Especially after you build a family and have kids, because then you'll develop many more expectations about your partner. Your expectations will always be your vulnerability to their need to create drama.

So since someone with BPD will never be able to reliably fulfill your expectations, I think it's only feasible to have a drama-less relationship with a person with BPD when:

a) You aren't expecting anything from them (perhaps they aren't your intimate partner anymore)
b) You are fulfilling all of their expectations of you
c) You don't live together

---

For instance, in the beginning of my relationship with my current wife, she made huge efforts to drive me jealous. She wanted to have the upper hand in our relationship, but not just that, she wanted drama. Since I didn't know her well, I avoided all drama and tried to just observe, but she kept feeding into it with lies and created a very unpleasant feeling in me that I couldn't trust her because she lied so much, so I kept questioning her about it and even used a lie detector. So I inevitably fed into her drama because I had the need to know the truth. Currently I know her well and don't fall for it, but we are now a family, so she still has other sources to create drama if she wants, as I still have some expectations of her in regard to the kids at least.

So I'm trying to eliminate all of my remaining expectations of her. I got to a point at which I feel better with her around. And every time she tries to create drama, I step back. And since she wants to restore our relationship, she is making an effort to avoid drama. At the same time, I try to provide her with love, which will reinforce positive interactions. That can work because love is a positive form of stimulating their endogenous opioid system.

But eventually I get frustrated with something, and I show some negative emotion, and then it doesn't work.

Does all of what I said make sense for everyone?

Sorry I just saw this thread; I didn't get online at all this past weekend.

Think about this- at the heart of it all, you want to stop the conflict between you and your wife.  But what is conflict?

I'm not trying to be philosophical here.  Let's go deeper than that and be completely honest with each other.  How does the conflict start?  What is the catalyst?  Is it words exchanged...or familiar habits...where does conflict actually come from?

Most of us will say something like, "Well, she did this so I did that.  Then she got mad and said this...and then I got mad and she threw something at me."

That's what happened during the conflict, but it's not what actually caused it all to begin with.

Here's the thing- what happened doesn't matter.  Who started it doesn't matter.  Who was right or wrong doesn't matter.  The thing that actually matters is identifying what started the conflict and changing that one thing.

You're right, this is a form of radical acceptance.  I choose not to fight with my BPD ex, my BPD kid, their BPD family, and others.  I just won't do it, no matter what, because I know that there's nothing to gain.  Even if I'm 100% right and they're 100% wrong, fighting over it makes everyone lose just the same.

So I've accepted something greater than that.  I love those people and I'm not going to fight with them.  If they're upset, I'll lift them up if possible, and if it doesn't happen then I'll back away while extending grace.  I try not to judge them because I know what it's like to be upset over something.

MY BPD daughter, for instance, I'll love her no matter what she says or does.  That doesn't mean I agree with her decisions or support the things she does that puts her in danger, but she knows how I feel and I share my opinions sparingly (mainly when asked). 

That means we don't have to argue over that stuff anymore, we can skip those topics entirely most of the time, because that's no longer a dynamic of our relationship.  And at times, yes, I completely mess up and GO OFF on her when she's particularly reckless.  So this isn't about me being perfect either.  It's just not the thing that dominates our relationship anymore because my kid does not feel judged by me.

Right now, she's mad at me because of a repo she got a few years back because she wants to refinance.  She's mad because she expected me to swoop in and fix it, even though I wasn't financially able at the time.  And you know what, that's okay.  We don't live together and I don't have to be her best friend daily.  So I'm giving her ample space to figure this out on her own, but at the same time I still check in frequently over winter weather, etc. 

If she doesn't answer, then so be it...I accept that she's mentally ill and has to work through this on her own.  I'm perfectly content with her being mad at me (for something she did) because she has to process this herself.  I could demand an apology (which I'll never get) and suddenly, we're in the middle of a conflict that nobody can win.  I choose to skip all of that and just let her do her own thing until we speak again...and our relationship has never been better.

Hi Pook075 , and thanks for showing up. I was waiting for you  :wee:

Ok, but what you said is slightly different from what I asked in the thread topic. You are talking about how to avoid conflict, with conflict being defined as a hostile interaction, right?

But if it is a one-sided confrontation, with only them trying to confront us, isn't that enough to push them away and hurt the relationship? That's what I thought when I asked about "how to stop being attacked."

So it brings up the question: is it impossible to prevent them from becoming angry/hostile, or is there always something in our words that has lead them to take that path?

To answer this question, I have copied and pasted into ChatGPT a few of our text interactions that didn't go well, one interaction at a time. I asked if that was a conflict and if I had done anything that fed into the problem. To my surprise, the AI convinced me that I made many mistakes (wordings that fed into conflict). That's an advantage of using text.

Have you tried that, hiiumaa ?

Now I'm thinking, how hard it is to avoid being "negative" in our words while our emotions are negative?  :(

Hi SuperDaddy and Pook075,

I'm going to include both of you in this. I find this exchange very fascinating right now.

Even though you, Pook075, didn't quite answer SuperDaddy's question, the strategy you describe is a good one. I remember reading about it elsewhere.
However, I keep running into the problem with my partner that he sees ‘backing away’ as a total disaster and then freaks out even more. He can't recognise or accept (or both) that I'm doing this to protect myself, but sees it as not being loved/being abandoned. But he also doesn't see that communication is no longer possible in the current situation because of his outbursts.

How do your BPD family members react when you withdraw? Do they see it as abandonment? Can you describe this situation in detail when you withdraw?

For example, I announce it: ‘XY, I can see that you are very angry. Please calm down, otherwise I will withdraw until tomorrow morning for self-protection.’ But that leads to a total outburst of anger and, in most cases, a break in contact for a long time.

SuperDaddy, do you have any examples of this wording that Chat GPT didn't like? And did the AI give you any alternative suggestions?

I have already used Chat GPT to get suggestions on how to respond to certain text messages that I knew in advance would be VERY sensitive and lead to conflict if I wasn't extremely careful. But even with Chat GPT's help, it escalated every time. And I asked the AI to phrase it in a particularly validating, empathetic and clear way. I even told the AI the whole history of the relationship beforehand so that it was clear what a powder keg this relationship is. Nevertheless, it was not possible to avert the conflict.

However, the AI also repeatedly emphasises that, according to the description, my partner is particularly dependent on mirroring and control, especially when he feels hurt, ashamed or criticised, and that he simply cannot recognise withdrawal as self-protection on my part, but rather as a withdrawal of love or an attack. And that, unfortunately, he also cannot tolerate radical acceptance because he is practically incapable of integrating responsibility for his behaviour and ALWAYS has to shift it onto others (in this case, onto me). The AI always describes my partner's dysregulation as a ‘system error’ that I cannot fix.

Hi hiiumaa ,

The AI chatbots are very agreeable. So if they sense that you feel trapped, they will tend to validate that by stating that there is nothing you can do to make it work.

What I suggested is to copy-paste a long interaction. Just make sure that the AI can understand who's writing each sentence. Then ask the AI to evaluate your part of the interaction and if you did contribute to the conflict or not, and if you could have done better. Don't give it a background of the relationship because this will likely introduce bias in the AI's response, but you can briefly clarify the context in which the conversation happened.

Partners with BPD are experts in getting on our nerves. And when they succeed, even slightly, it becomes hard for us to notice our negativity slipping into our words. But according to the AI, I don't have to fake emotions. I can be cold and yet do a good job. Well, that's what the bot said... but can a human really do that?  :(

Hi SuperDaddy,

Ah, now I understand what you meant.
Yes, I've already tried that, feeding the AI the exact wording of our chats afterwards and let it analyize.

I even tried both variants: telling it the history of the relationship and my partner's diagnoses, and without any prior information.

It was always clear that he was the one who provoked the conflict. The AI always portrayed me as ‘empathetic’.
Except for the time shortly after my partner received the diagnosis of bpd/npd and absolutely refused to accept it. Although I knew it wasn't a good idea to harp on about it, I kept reminding him. That really wasn't a good idea, and Chat GPT kept pointing that out to me.

Do you know what I find difficult? My partner often accused me of being ‘negative’ and emphasised that he only needed someone who was always positive.

I am not always positive, and my body lets me know immediately when I am pretending to be positive even though I don't feel that way.

And I don't want to play role-playing games for my partner.

When I feel that it's completely absurd for him to talk about a great career, a big house, lots of travel and a baby, for example, even though he can't even manage his everyday life without a job and needs alcohol to self-medicate for every little thing, then I can't say euphorically: „Oh yes, darling! That sounds like a great plan!" because I can physically feel that I am betraying myself with this statement.
So I say: ‘I can see that you want big changes. But I can also see that small steps are all that is possible right now.’ That's enough to cause another clash.

In the early days of our relationship, I always agreed with him, no matter how absurd his statements and grandios fantasies were, because I knew that any kind of ‘different opinion’ would lead to conflict. But at some point, that was no longer possible because I physically felt that I was betraying myself if I always just swallowed my feelings about his behaviour.

So how can I get to the point where I'm not being ‘negative’ but also not betraying myself?

How do you handle that in your relationship?

P.S. I tested the AI to see if it would just agree with me that I can't do anything.

P.S. If you say you can be completely cold and still do a good job... that's interesting.

Can you elaborate on that? Do you mean 'cold' like 'distant'? Show no emotions? Be absolutely objective? Can your wife handle that?

Hi hiiumaa ,

Congratulations for always being empathetic. I have been failing to keep a healthy, non-triggering dialog with my wife. And I think that I'm giving up because I don't have the energy anymore to endure her mood swings and keep guiding her in the best direction.

Anyway, the idea of being cold was something the AI came up with. I think the goal is to filter out the emotions from the text so that there are no negative expressions while you are not in a good mood. I think it is ok if they notice it, because they should understand that we also have emotions, as long as it doesn't slip into anything triggering in your text.

By the way, here is the translation of her response from yesterday, which I don't want to counter:

I'm done with you. As you yourself said, "I make no effort." You're shameless! You really don't, and you never have! Do you think I'm going to keep flirting with a guy who sends me an audio message like that??

Listen to that damn audio before you demand anything from me. You two-faced liar! "Sweetie" this, "sweetie" that, and then you say you make no effort at all, you shameless bastard!

I'm not a woman to be messing around like that! Have some shame!

I'm serious: I'm going to pick up my son tomorrow at the main gate.

I want you out of my life.

How could I have been messing around with a guy who says something like that to me?

Shortly after my audio, as I noticed she misunderstood me, I sent another one explaining myself correctly, but she preferred sticking to the worst interpretation anyway. The text above came hours after, so I figured out that this is how she wants to see things. She seems to have the unconscious need to see herself as a victim and feel rejected. That would make sense; it stimulates the EOS.  :(

I'm not sure if I understood the context. Why do you need to use the "but" part? Do you expect him to take small steps so that he actually succeeds in something so that both of you can have a life together?

Two parents of my family had severe hallucinations from schizophrenia. When dealing with them, I figured out it was completely useless to object to their statements. As a result, I had an excellent relationship with them. I think we can do a "reality check" with them, but I don't know how to do it.

In your case, I'm not sure about the context, but probably I would not worry about the grandiose thoughts. I would see them as a good thing, as they are motivating him. Like a kid that says they will be a doctor. Instead of cutting them off and saying that they need to finish their homework first, you can show that you're happy that they know what they want.

Hi SuperDaddy!

Thank you very much for the great exchange!

I can well understand that after this response from your wife, you felt the need to explain yourself very clearly again. I probably would have had the same impulse.

Unfortunately, I also know that even follow-up explanations—even when given after some time to cool down—don’t get through.

You say you’re giving up. Does that mean you actually want to end the relationship with your wife?

As for my partner’s grandiose fantasies, the unfortunate thing is that they fuel his alcohol binges. He always goes through these cycles. And it starts with a kind of mania, including grandiosity. The more frustrated he gets that the grandiose ideas don’t work out, the closer he gets to alcohol. That’s why I started telling him that I see that only small steps are possible—in the hope of grounding him. But, as mentioned, that doesn’t work.

Hi hiiumaa ,

Oh, I see the grandiose ideas lead to binge drinking. But honestly, this is something you should not try to control. And trying to control this with words is the worst way. This is super invalidating for pwBPD. And if he is dissociating while he does so, then it's really impossible to bring him back to reality with this approach.

What you can do is to read about the orthomolecular protocol from Roger J. Williams (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=3061488.msg13232334#msg13232334) and about the prescription drugs used to treat alcoholism. If you google "drug used to treat alcoholism," you'll see a few names, and the main one is also used off-label to treat severe symptoms of BPD with very high success rates. Then once he contacts you and is open to receiving recommendations, you can forward him the information. Hopefully he would be encouraged to forward it to his psychiatrist. Most psychiatrists won't know it, but you can forward them the studies:

https://psycnet.apa.org/buy/2010-06891-012
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34029405/

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Now back to my case... I hardly slept at all this night thinking about it. Yes, I'm inclined to give up on being there for her and to maintain a romantic relationship, at least temporarily, until I see results from her treatment. Because by now, not interacting seems like the only way to avoid conflict. But she can meet me, if she wants, every 3 days when I take our 2-year-old back and forth.

It would be so easy for me to just find a new company, an easygoing girl, and rebuild my family without her. I'm very self-confident about that. But what holds me back is the hope that I have in the treatments that are available (DBT + N + K).

Everyone gets angry, so avoiding that entirely probably isn't possible.  It's what we do when someone around us is angry that makes all the difference.

For example, my current wife was mad today because her son didn't come home from school for about three hours.  The longer we waited, the madder she got, and I could tell that he was going to get screamed at when he came in the door.  If he talked back or made excuses, he'd get slapped...it's just how these sorts of things go.

Mind you, my current wife isn't mentally ill.  She does have anger problems at times though and expects her son to be perfect.

When I saw her getting upset, I knew it was out of worry...what if something happened?  I was looking at my watch too because it's unlike him to be out late.  So I validated her anger by saying I understood why she was upset and I was frustrated too. 

Just like that, her anger went from like a 7 to a 3.

BPDs are the same in that regard; everything is emotional and explosive and over the top.  They could be yelling about something left on the counter, but that's not why they're angry...the truth is something deeper that we rarely get to see.  Yet we get drawn in over that one dumb thing and it turns into a war when we don't even understand why we're arguing.

For my wife above, I knew her anger was actually worry over something might have happened to her son.  So I reacted with validation and sympathy not towards her anger, but the actual problem. 

For BPDs, you might say, "Well, if the stuff they're dysregulated over is hidden, how the heck do I address it?"

But that's the beauty of it, the 'why' doesn't matter.  They just want to feel loved and supported in every interaction.  They want to feel like they matter and they're seen.

If I see my BPD kid or ex wife completely unhinged, my first reaction is compassion by saying something like, "Oh my gosh, what happened?  What can I do?  Let's talk it out."  And by doing that, it's targeting that frustration away from me and towards someone else.  Why?  Because I'm making it "our fight" instead of "their fight".

That doesn't always work because sometimes, they came in the room intentionally mad at me.  Or maybe something I said/did/thought set them off even further.  That's when I'll try to walk away, but I don't do it by saying, "Hmmph, you're impossible and I'm not doing this." 

Instead, I lovingly say, "Look, I'm on your side here and I don't want to argue.  I'm going to walk away for a few minutes so we can both calm down."

Notice that I used "I" several times and used "we" only once.  The statement was all about me and how I felt; that's to avoid placing blame towards the other person when they're disordered.  The only time I said a variant of "you" was in the phrase "I'm on your side".  That's intentional to be positive there with any "you" statements.

Other times, I might say, "I love you and I don't want to argue...."  It carries the same type of message.

When a BPD is dysregulated, it is almost always stems from abandonment issues, self esteem, feeling neglected, feeling worthless, etc.  An easy catch-all word would be "depressed".  In that state, they seek validation (or affection) and if that doesn't happen, then you have anger and conflict. 

And don't get me wrong here, most of the time we completely miss the social cues that show a dysregulated mood is incoming.  Or maybe there weren't any clues to begin with.  But if we respond with genuine concern and empathy, that can allow the moment to pass without the chaotic blowup.

I hope that helps.

Hi Pook075,

Ok, I understand how this can work, to a certain extent at least, but this is easier said than done... Well, at least for me.

It's comprehensible that you have unconditional love towards your daughter. However, I don't understand how you can love your ex-wife after she did what she did with you. Also, I would expect your current wife to have a big problem with that. Because I suppose your current wife would not understand it as well and would feel threatened by that kind of close relationship.

What am I missing here?

Did you not hate your ex-wife for a certain period in the past after the event? If you did, then why would you love her back again?

My BPD ex-wife isn't evil, she's mentally ill and she made some really bad choices that crushed me for a period of time.  I got back into church around that time and started reading my Bible, which led me towards the path of forgiveness.

What I realized was that by carrying around all that hurt, anger, sadness, etc, it didn't do a thing to my ex because she was off living her best life.  She could care less that she hurt me for quite some time.  But all that hurt stayed with me and in a way, consumed my daily life.  I had to actually let it go in order to heal myself.

I think my ex's plan was to be ugly to me, I'd be ugly back, and we'd quickly learn to hate each other.  But when she became ugly and I showed compassion, she had no idea what to do with it.  She was telling everyone that I was mentally abusive but it was plainly obvious to everyone that the opposite was true, that I was keeping my cool and trying to help her despite what she was doing.

There was a stretch for about a month that my anger/hatred got the best of me and I'd bad-mouth her to our kids.  Luckily I didn't hang onto that though because like I said, in many ways it's a pure cancer that eats you up from the inside out.  I didn't want to be that person and I didn't want to carry that around, so through prayer and patience I was able to let it all go.

For me, the biggest thing was that we had to be parents for the rest of our lives and I hated seeing other ex couples fight over everything with the kids in the middle.  So I told my ex over and over, for the kids sake we can't go down that path.  I would always love her and want the best for her because of the kids.  Eventually, my ex got there as well.

My current wife knows that I have to have some degree of relationship with my ex because of the kids and she encourages it.  Whenever something happens, my wife tells me to call my ex and talk it out.  It probably does bother her a little deep down but at the same time, she knows that my ex was terrible to me and I have no desire to ever be in that position again.

I talk to my ex maybe 3-6 times per year though, and it's always over the kids.  We definitely are not friends and we don't keep up with each other's life.  But when we do talk, we get along well and I'm thankful for it.

Currently I'm living overseas, but in the next 3-6 months I'll be moving back to the same area my ex and kids are in (I'm finishing the marriage visa process with my current wife to come there).  So we'll see if that changes things; there will be kids birthdays, holidays, etc.  We've briefly talked about doing those things together sometimes since we're both re-married, but I don't know how that will go or if I'd be okay with it.  We'll see.

Pook, so much of what you write is relatable. I think both our relationships with our bpd ex were around 27 years. This I suppose is less common than normal, the fact we managed to maintain such long relationships with them. I’m very laid back and not one for picking arguments or picking holes in people, I don’t know if you are the same, but that may be why my relationship *appeared* to work for so long.

SuperDaddy, I think what you confuse Pook, and maybe myself also, with is the fact we were with the person for so long, because we have children with them, it is absolutely ok to love that person. But I feel you are confusing loving the person with being in love with the person.

From what you have written, it seems you have gone from relationship to relationship with mentally unstable women. I can echo what Pook has said, as I am now in a relationship with someone that doesn’t display any personality disorder traits. I too keep my contact with my ex to a minimum, but I am also encouraged to have some contact with her by my current partner as there is no fear of abandonment or jealousy issues with her that was present with the pwBPD in my life. More so now as our eldest son is going to be a parent himself in a few months, which will mean my ex and I will be co grandparents.

I think where Pook and I differ is that I will not tolerate my ex’s poor behaviour any more and I will call her out on it. I mentioned in my own thread the other day about an incident with my S22 (that lives with me) taking drugs and being completely out of it and asking me for help because he didn’t know what was happening. I told my ex about it the other day when I saw her, and she said she could understand him doing it with his mates but not alone in his bedroom, I responded with I don’t want him doing it any time. That was enough for her to say oh I suppose it’s all my fault and walk out slamming the door. Then through text accusing me of getting sh*tty with her and getting the daggers out. All I wanted was an adult conversation about our sons mental health, all she wanted to do was play the victim, so I called her out on the fact that she was turning a serious situation with our son into being about her. That annoys me, it just highlights the fact she hasn’t grown or changed in any way shape or form, but it also worries me because she hasn’t grown or changed in any shape or form.

I consider the question about stopping attacks as somewhat impractical since overreactions and acting out will occur, often inconsistently and unexpectedly.  It's the nature of the disorder.  It's like the amusement park game whac-a-mole where every hit only results in another popping up elsewhere.

Yes, therapy is the key to a Borderline's possibly reaching a level of recovery.  Yes, our boundaries may limit the poor behavior.  Yes, our bettered communication skills and practical tools can reduce the risk of us stumbling into friction and incidents.  But the other person is an adult and free to live his/her life his/her way.  We can't fix them, knowing that this is a dysfunction seriously worsened simply by being in the close relationship.

Perhaps we can shift to more practical matters, looking at the "us" factor.  What can self examination do for us?

I noticed that you joined us years ago and never posted until recently.  Most arrive here quite distressed rather than ambivalent.  I know I sure did.  Those were dark days indeed for me.  So... what are your needs?  Also, you have children from three failed or failing relationships.  Are their needs discerned and handled to optimize having balance in their futures?  While the littlest ones may be too young for even play therapy, do the older ones have access to counseling to enable them to have objectivity and normalcy in their daily lives?

Hi Pook075,

I completely understand the part that you had to let go of the hurt, anger, sadness, etc. The part that I did not understand was how you switched from being neutral/indifferent to your ex to "loving her." Talking once every 2-3 months is understandable. What I did not understand is where the love emerged from. But maybe it's because you had many good years together and still have good memories?

Maybe that's because, unlike my ex-wives, your ex didn't do further harm after the separation. I'm assuming she didn't keep trying to rob you of your property, money, and kids?

If I share my story, you'll note it's completely different than yours. The story of both of my ex-wives is very similar, with a gap of 7 years between both divorces. The second ex actually wrote down and copied the steps of the first ex, as she wanted to gain the same advantages.

I was the one who gave up on the relationship, simply because I was not attracted to them anymore and gave up on making it work. However, they got angry that I was having my own life, so they took advantage of the fact that we were still living together, in my inherited property, to apply a scam targeting financial advantages.

Both were physically violent when feeling rejected and made false criminal accusations against me of domestic violence when, in reality, I was the one being spanked. I had some bruises and bites, but DV laws here only serve women. After separation, they kept digging up the old archived false accusations to gain further advantages and for vindictive reasons (because I had built a new family). In total I got acquitted from more than 10 false accusations (because there was no proof and their facts were incoherent), but meanwhile their goal of getting advantages in courts was accomplished, nevertheless. And I got years of unnecessary stress and lost lots of money to lawyers.

They also told endless lies in court to take financial advantage, and both do parental alienation of the kids. I met my first ex more than 10 years later, in court, and she was still angry like a dog, unprovoked. But the real reason that sustains their behavior is that they can use the kids to get financial advantage. It is not because of any negative interaction or reaction of mine. Both still live on my property, for free, despite having no rights. All of that because courts are extremely slow and unreliable. Also, because I am exhausted of it and lack the energy to keep fighting.

I'm guessing you would not love those ex-wives, would you?

If I somehow did love my ex-wives and was "always there for them," then that could be helpful, perhaps with their anger management. Yet, I don't think that would lead to any sort of fair agreement regarding pension, property, or parenting time. Because they are completely self-centered and opportunistic. Actually, shortly after the separation, I tried this. But being close and helpful was only working for their goals, not for mine. So I began to be just diplomatic, but they always wanted more contact and proximity. And that brought me jealousy troubles in my new relationship, understandably.

However, with my current wife, things are different, because she has a better character (not perfect, but not a scammer either). In case we did follow different paths, I don't think she would be my enemy at all.

Currently I'm being cold with her. I was being lovable and helpful, but the past keeps being brought up in our conversations by both of us, and it doesn't go well because both of us have resentments about the past.

If she had left when I asked for it, then we would not have had such bad memories, but instead she turned my life into hell for a long period while refusing to leave. And I don't want to let go of my resentment, because I already have this tendency to let go too easily, but now I need to make sure it never happens again. I kind of feel threatened by the possibility of forgetting the past, bringing her back, and then going through all of it again.

So I want to hold on to the memories until her distorted views are reversed by treatment (if that ever happens). Once I see that her attitude has changed, then I'll be cool with leaving the past behind and giving us (her) a new chance. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I still think we will have a success story. I have a secret, which I can't share here because it could be interpreted as medical guidance, but this is the reason why I still have hope. She will go through two specific drug treatments, which should completely change her mood and compulsions in less than two months. Then DBT will do the rest of the job, unwinding her problematic patterns.

For so many years I have been putting hope in possible ways of dealing with BPD, so I have always been overoptimistic. However, this time my hopes are grounded in BPD scientific studies and case reports.

In 2015, I was living with my BPD ex, and the single problem we had was her jealousy of stepkids. It was difficult, but I was not in pain or anything like that. I was reading many books on BPD trying to solve a problem, so I registered in multiple forums but opted to participate in private forums instead of here because she was "stalking" me. Later, I got her pregnant, and then again, and gradually things got much worse, and I gradually strayed away from her.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like you are judging me as someone who is irresponsible and who causes damage to kids due to bad decisions and perhaps even neglect? Anyway, I don't see a point in defending against this, but I can summarize how hard it was.

Your accomplishments seem very impressive, and I was also doing well in the beginning, when I only had one battler to fight for. I was at a great disadvantage, and she had temporary custody, and I would turn tables. But in 2012 I got betrayed by my own lawyers twice. The first only wanted my money, and the second was advocating in favor of my ex (her work partners said that). As a result, I ended up with a shared custody agreement when I should have gone for full custody since I had serious proof of child abuse. Then in 2019, my second wife began to turn against me, and shortly after, my first ex took advantage of COVID to brainwash the kids and zero out my parenting time. Unfortunately, courts had thousands of cases like that and ignored all of them, so I kept doing what was feasible and within reach only. Now I'm working out my 3rd relationship while still in lots of court processes with my ex's, but I can't win 3 difficult wars at the same time, so I have been focusing on the younger ones, which are doing well. The older ones are out of reach, have been completely brainwashed, and are almost adults now.

Even before I was separated, I had tried to get counseling for my spouse, then I tried to start counseling for us but she refused so I had sessions for myself.

For whatever reason, probably sheer ignorance of my options, it didn't occur to me to seek counseling for our child.  I recall my attorney commenting, "Courts love counseling" for everyone.  It's been noted here that even if only one parent seeks counseling and the other parent objects, courts will typically consider the best interests of the child and order that it proceed.

I asked because so many arriving here are not aware of their options and for that reason this site shares the information that counseling is beneficial.  We don't know in advance whether someone is aware or not.

Hi there,

You pose an interesting question.  I have a pwBPD and a pwuNPD in my life, and after several years living in the midst of their high-conflict and chaotic lives, I have a couple of takeaways.

First off, going no contact might be the only way to lessen conflict for a time.  If you read these boards, I think you'll see that the topic of going Low Contact or No Contact is talked about frequently, because people find themselves in a similar situation:  they feel constantly attacked and abused, and no matter what they do, nothing seems to stop the onslaught.  Therefore the only recourse to find peace and regain some sanity in life seems to be going Low Contact or completely No Contact.  The reasons the topic is debated so much include the practical realities of reducing contact (What to do at family gatherings?  What if children are involved?  What if there's a real emergency?), as well as conflicting feelings about love, obligation, responsibility and fear for the pwBPD's very life.

Of course, going no contact isn't feasible with shared living quarters, and people might reach a crisis point where they decide that leaving the home or asking the pwBPD to leave is the only viable option.  That critical juncture might arise because the pwBPD threatens or commits violence, constantly hurls verbal attacks or is otherwise acting in an abusive manner that has become intolerable.  It happens when "walking on eggshells" turns into "walking on landmines."  So yeah, there comes a point where there's an escalation, and the abusive behavior is unrelenting, leading loved ones to take drastic measures.  Why?  Because nothing else has worked.  No matter how much love, reassurances, bail-outs, concessions, therapy and boundary setting there has been, the pwBPD's behavior makes the home intolerable.  If you read these boards you'll see that this sort of situation is precisely the one that drives people here looking for answers!  And it's not as if they aren't trying.  If they are here, my sense is that it's because they really care, and they are trying their hardest, but they are despondent because nothing seems to work.  The thing is, for a relationship to work, both people have to try.  It won't work if you're the only one trying and the pwBPD has given up.  Unfortunately, you can't compensate by trying even harder.  Your partner has to work at it too.  She might be determined to life a life of misery, and she can take you down with her if you let her.  You might have to decide to save yourself and your kids.  You know that analogy of the frog in water that gradually heats up to boiling?  Is your home near the boiling point?

Another takeaway I have is that the pwuNPD in my life is just plain argumentative.  He is wired for conflict.  He finds problems and conflict absolutely everywhere:  with family, (ex)friends, work (until he gets fired), police, people he hires (and fires), neighbors, etc.  It's as if his life revolves around conflict.  He FEEDS off of it.  The police know about him and keep a fat file on him.  I guess it's no surprise he is trained as a lawyer, because he likes arguing!  He likes beating people into submission!  You ask, How to stop being attacked?  My answer is that you basically can't stop an attacker from attacking, short of a restraining order.  That's what it took for the pwuNPD in my life.  But the reality is, it was impossible to completely avoid contact alltogether, because of the children.  At some level there's continued interaction around visitation and child support.  I think he views that as a window of opportunity to "attack" the "enemy" (his ex wife).  My opinion is he will never stop attacking, because it's his nature, he likes it and in a bizarre way, it's working for him.  I think the only way of "tolerating" his hostility and personal attacks is to minimize contact, and communicate only using BIFF--being Brief, Informative, Friendly and Firm.  In other words, don't respond with emotional content, stick to facts (e.g. logistics) and don't give him anything he can criticize or latch onto, let alone debate.  If he's just "spamming" with false accusations, empty threats or snide remarks, then I'd say, delete the spam because it is spam.

But maybe you're thinking, but CC43, my loved one with BPD isn't that vindictive.  She can be loving.  She's just unstable sometimes, and she's a bit paranoid and petulant.  She takes everything the wrong way, and she lashes out with bitterness.  I love her deeply, but right now she sees me as the enemy.  I'd say, yes that can happen, she's painted you all black.  And maybe since she's not living with you right now, she's not benefitting from your constant emotional/moral/logistical/financial support.  She's thrust in the "real world" fending herself, while lacking the emotional fortitude and mental toughness to handle it.  Without really knowing much about your situation, I'd venture a guess that your loved one is feeling more stress right now, and she's taking it out on YOU.  That's very typical with BPD.  The lashings out, passive-aggressive behaviors and hostility usually amp up whenever she's feeling stressed out, because she lacks emotional coping skills.  My take is, her behavior probably has little to do with you at all.  You're just the object of her frustration/fury/anger because you're the closest person to her.  Nobody else would tolerate it.  Does that make sense?

Hi CC43,

Thanks for replying. Yes, she is constantly stressed there in her mom's house because of two reasons. One is that she has trouble dealing with the kids without my help, so she ends up not sleeping enough. The other reason is that her mother, who is too controlling, becomes "obsessed with her and the kids," and that makes her feel anxious/stressed. In both cases, she blames me for not allowing her to return home. I have been with our 2-year-old for many days, more than 50%, but I can't bring the newborn because of breastfeeding, and the baby has digestive problems with formulas.

I can't accept her here because she is being aggressive and hasn't started any treatment yet. So yesterday I said, "I can go over there and take care of the kids while sleeping on the couch while you sleep by yourself in the room, but not here." So she only read the last part, "not here," and cursed at me in uppercase text. However, the next morning she said, "I'm sorry; you really don't attack me, so I should not do that."

I need to have some contact with her because of the kids and money and because I'm trying to promote treatments for her, but yes, it helps to keep the conversations at the minimum needed.

In my view, the disorder forces her to seek conflict to feel better, and I'm the only safe target to do that (like you said), but I'm hoping that over time, if I consistently don't engage and step back, then she might rethink her attitude and become less conditioned to do it.

Currently, she has adopted a posture of "You don't accept me as your wife, so I won't be your girlfriend either." But I haven't disputed this view. I have been just waiting for her to drop the attitude so that we can have some warmth from our interactions again, perhaps.

Though she gets angry every day because she thinks it is selfish of me to not bring her back for at least a weekend to help her feel better. But I don't want to put my peace at risk, and I can't be sure if she would keep her word and return to her mom's after the weekend.

I see that she is feeling rejected, and probably I could soothe her with affection and give some reassurance, but I'm not sure if it is right to be affectionate with her while she isn't being with me. I mean, instead of giving my affection for free, I would like her to deserve it somehow. What do you think? Should I try to just give it unconditionally?

My situation was different, at least partially due to how I responded.  At first I stood for my marriage, but over time I realized that it was over and I could still love her as a person...without the romantic feelings attached.  We were married for 23 years (technically 25 since we were separated for two years waiting for the divorce), plus we dated several years before that.  

So I spent almost my entire adult life caring for this person, being there for her, raising kids together, etc.

Like you, we had good and bad memories...but for me the good far outweighed anything else.  And I didn't know what to do with that, all those vacations and favorite restaurants and hobbies, etc.  Then there were the million inside jokes you have with your partner, the TV shows you loved together, the moments in time that the world changed, etc.  How do you just erase all of that and pretend that it didn't matter?

Ultimately, we divorced without attorneys and agreed to a 50/50 split.  The judge even warned my wife, are you sure you want to do this without counsel and waive your rights?  If your husband doesn't do as he verbally promised, the court will have no recourse.  I thought for sure she'd at least think about it, but she declined and said she trusted me to do what's right.  The judge was perplexed but continued.

Mind you, I've never heard a story like that anywhere from a BPD divorce, they're almost always ugly and drawn out.  To me though, making peace with my ex was more important than money and it's what served our young adult kids the best.  

My experiences are basically impossible according to this site, and it's because BPDs explode, we explode back, and it's scorched earth from there on out.  I fortunately was able to take a different path though and I'm very thankful for it.


A BPDs biggest fear is abandonment or being rejected, so you inadvertently made their worst fears come true.  And in retaliation, it went about as badly as it could have.  That's 99.9% of the stories here so it's not like you did anything wrong.  But at the same time here, there's definitely a lesson for you on marriage #3.  It doesn't have to be scorched Earth and a massive legal battle.

Even if you can't work things out, give her the validation that she needs.  That's what I found with my ex, even though it was clearly over, I could honestly say I love you to her and mean it.  I do want her to have a great life and I do want her to find happiness.  It's just so much easier as friends than enemies.


I've mentioned that religion played a bit part in my journey here.  I've tried to avoid talking about that too much since this is a secular conversation, but there's a theme in the Bible indicating that the past is dead.  I've held onto that because we can't change the past, we can't fix our mistakes, and focusing on it can only bring hardship.

Think about it, even if it's an incredible memory, we think, "Why can't life be like that today?"

When the BPDs in my life bring up the past, I'll speak very briefly on it and apologize that I couldn't meet their needs better back then.  I'll say that I'm not perfect and I've made mistakes, and that I try to learn and grow from those mistakes.  But then I'm finished talking about it because I'm not going to dwell on it or try to relive it.  We literally can't do anything about it, so why focus on it at all?  Just apologize and move on.

Your wife might still bring up the past often, but you have to see above that and steer away from it.  That mindset is so toxic for so many reasons and it brings back trauma.  BPDs are remembering their feelings of the bad stuff, not necessarily what happened or who said what.  So apologize for hurting their feelings and let it rest.


I wish you luck and I hope the medical treatments work out.  Just remember that you have a part to play as well and you have more control than anyone over her mindset.  Help her let go of fears and insecurities by letting her see that you're there for her.  It makes a world of difference long term.

Hi Pook075 ,

Indeed, the fact that you have good memories make all of the difference. I don't have any good memories of past wives. We didn't ever have any good vacations together, we didn't have any favourite restaurant and we didn't ever do any hobbies together. The good memories I have are about my kids only.

There were a few vacations that I took with my first wife before having kids, but all of them were painful and very restricted because of her jealousy, her self-image problems, and her OCD problems. After having kids, having vacations became impossible. First wife was overly stressed and hostile all the time. The second wife was always pathologically jealous about my stepkids. Third wife is cool but has specific phobias that make it impossible for us to travel.

Hopefully, her BPD treatment will address her anxiety disorders as well. It's obvious to me that she is unconsciously attached to traumatic memories because of her need to feel in an emergency situation, so that her EOS is activated. Specific phobias are easy to treat, but she keeps sabotaging the treatment. Once her EOS is working, she will finally be ready to get cured and then whatever treatment she does will work (such as exposure treatment, hypnotherapy, EMDR, or treatments that use psychedelic drugs).


We explode back? No, I don't do that. I have never messed up things because of my temper. My self-control is extreme, and I have the temperament of a calculator.  :) At work, in situations of pressure, people have said that the world was ending while I was calm and poundering. But that's because it takes a lot more to get me stressed. And even when stressed I can act peacefully.

It's true that I couldn't express love for my ex-wives since I didn't actually love them (not anymore, at least). But even if I did love them, I'm sure that courts would still be needed to dispute the financial part and parenting time. For instance, with my second ex I have almost always been able to negotiate 50% parenting time, sometimes more, but in courts she always denies it happens and requests the minimum for me, because she wants to have the control and to secure the pension value since she does not quite work.


Well, that's true. But how can I end a relationship without triggering her abandonment fears? I don't think this is possible. Therefore, in situations like mine in which their abandonment fears were triggered, I think the best option is to plan everything in advance and use courts for everything early, before they use courts on you. But unfortunately for someone laid-back like me, who is never angry, it's hard to do that.


Unfortunately, I disagree. Your ex is not evil, but my ex's are, in a way. It did have to be a massive legal battle, and 80% of the court disputes were started by them. People like them do not accept fair agreements, ever.

With my current wife, however, no legal battle will be needed. Even because we won't separate. But if we did divorce, I know that she would want the best for me. That's why I love her, for the person that she is deep inside.


Well, that's true, but the only way I can be safe now is to keep my memories from the recent past active. Otherwise, I'll just end up in the same situation again.


I agree that stating we can't change the past and moving on is good. Also, asking them, "Before I answer, please tell me, what is the purpose of this conversation?" is an excellent approach, because they might not have an answer. However, your suggestion to apologize is usually not an option for me.

If she says that I hurt her feelings, I can certainly apologize for that. But if she says that I didn't buy sufficient food or didn't give her enough freedom, this is a distorted view, and apologizing for that could possibly reinforce the distortion.

For instance, she brought up that I was too controlling about the amount of time our boy sees screens. She accuses me of taking away her rights to use screens with her son. Her narrative is not true, because I always tried to talk it out, but she made a war out of it. So I'm afraid that apologizing to that would feed into her narrative?

And there is no point in this discussion because she is actually aware that screens have made him laten his speech. She does not even use screens in her mom's house.

Do you really think we should apologize for everything, even for the distorted narratives?

Hi again,

Thanks for the additional information about the living situation.  The way I see it, your wife remains untreated for BPD, and since others (you and her mom) take care of all her needs (financial, housing, childcare, probably more), the situation is "working" for her.  Even if she's miserable, she's resisting therapy.  Since your wife wants to continue with the status quo using both you and her mom to take care of her, she doesn't really have incentive to change.  Further, she keeps you on edge by attacking you, criticizing you and making demands, making it seem like YOU are the problem.  Since you "tolerate" her attacks by not withdrawing attention/support, she's basically incentivized to keep at it.  In her world, it's OK to be petulant, needy, angry and accusatory.  (I know this because the pwBPD in my life lived in a world with upside down incentives--the worse she acted, the more money she got!).  Meanwhile, you're trying absolutely everything to make the situation work.  The thing is, it seems to me like you're the only one trying.  Your wife has to work at it too.

I bet that deep down your wife is ashamed--she admits she shouldn't act the way that she does sometimes--but she just doesn't have the emotional resources to make a positive change.  In her world, the only thing she knows is that acting out gets results.  I bet her mom is as tired of her petulance and irritability as you are!  That's probably why grandma comes off as being "too controlling," because your wife probably isn't helping out enough and treats her mom like a servant while being mean.  Yeah, your wife probably thinks she's tired, and as a new mom, she might well be, but for her, feeling tired feels like the end of the world.  She can't "power through" a hard day and put herself to bed at a resonable hour to get the rest she needs.  She can't make a doctor's appointment to address any physical ailments.  She conflates fatigue with emotional abuse by everyone around her.  So she's whiny and complaining and getting her mom to do mom-stuff, and the situation is probably incredibly tense.  Your wife is tired of that and wants to move back in with you.  Yet she holds YOU responsible, while avoiding taking any responsibility for herself and her behavior.

The issue is, if your wife moves back with you, nothing changes.  I went through a series of moving in/out/in/out/in/out with the pwBPD in my life.  I've literally lost count of the number of moves.  Basically she'd run from her problems by changing up her living situation, while trying to "punish" the offending roommates with her absence.  Little did she know that her roommates were relieved for her to leave.  Sadly, the only way she could realize that the problem was with her (and not with the people who took care of her) was to hit bottom.  For as long as she was living with her caretakers, she thought THEY were the problem.  Only by living in the "real" adult world was she forced to confront reality:  that her neediness, dysfunction, moodiness, accusations and angry outbursts are her problem and responsibility, and she needs therapy to learn to cope.  But for as long as you (and her mom) "enable" her dysfunction, she will continue, because that's all she knows.  Let me guess, she thinks she's victimized by everyone around her, right?  That renders her powerless over her own life.  She doesn't feel responsible.  She thinks everyone else should change, not her.  And she's upset by this, because her expectations of others to cater to her insatiable needs remain unmet.  Does that sound about right?

I think we should apologize for feelings and facts.  If I did something wrong, I'll say I'm wrong.  Or if I hurt my ex's feelings, I will apologize for her feeling upset and state that it wasn't my intention to hurt her or upset her.

However, I don't apologize for distorted narratives and nobody should.

In that same moment where you're getting a distorted narrative though, you can apologize for how she's feeling and make it known that you can see her frustration.  That can sometimes end the rant without actually agreeing about anything.

Thanks Pook075 for the clarification on apologies.

Sorry ForeverDad for my misunderstanding of your intentions.

Hi CC43,

That's not entirely precise. My wife's mother is not a caretaker in the emotional sense. She is the provider and homeowner but actually makes things worse in the emotional sense because she is very hyperactive and wants to take control over everything about her daughter and grandkids. In my presence, her mother behaves well, but when I'm not present, she becomes hostile, complaining of everything and cursing all of the time. And when she drinks alcohol, she becomes more aggressive. She becomes a nightmare for my wife. With her sister, she isn't having so much trouble. Her mom works 3x3 (3 days working, 3 days resting), so during the 3 days in which her mother is absent, things are easier for her. But not quite easy because of the kids.

Her biggest complaint now is that she can't sleep enough. I have just accepted her to come in today and go back on Sunday. I'll need to cross my fingers so that the plan works.

I'm focusing on this quote from Pook075 :

"They just want to feel loved and supported in every interaction. They want to feel like they matter and they're seen."

I will paste an interaction below that was a complete game changer. She was again screaming for help, asking to stay here for a weekend because her mother stresses her out. And a single answer I did completely flipped the angry pattern that she had been showing for days.

---

Her: HOW ARE WE GOING TO SOLVE THIS??? THIS WOMAN GETS DRUNK AND WANTS TO HOLD MY DAUGHTER
HOW ARE WE GOING TO SOLVE THIS?
Because I'M ABOUT TO DO SOMETHING CRAZY HERE
???
You're going to avoid responsibility, aren't you!

Me: no

Her: Your problem is only seeing me for 30 minutes

Me: I would like to be respected

Her: Respected for what?
Can you be clearer?
"no" what?

Me: The "no" is for that --> You're going to avoid responsibility, aren't you!

---

After this, she immediately cooled off, stopped sending frantic messages, and switched back to being warm with me again, calling me love. Then she began to question that I said days ago that I had said that I was not making any effort, so I answered this:

---

Me: You're making a big deal out of nothing. You know very well that I'm moving mountains for you.

Her: But why did you say that then, dear?
You hurt me.
Do you agree that you said it just to hurt me?

Me: No, I didn't mean to hurt you. I'm sorry if it did. But I only said it so you would stop digging up problems we don't have anymore.

Her: Okay.
Soon I will be there, ok?
We can lunch at the bar, if possible.

---

At this point I was resisting allowing her to be here, but since she was now treating me with respect and being humble, I decided to give in. Some time later, I got a bit frustrated in the conversation because she had not scheduled her therapy yet and was eating bread despite being gluten sensitive, so I almost gave a bad response and went back on my decision, but I thought twice and didn't mess it up. Because I reminded myself that she is just needing to feel supported.

She postponed it, so today I got just our boy, and tomorrow she might come, but for only one night.

I'm glad you were able to deflect some of her anger and change the narrative.  It almost always comes back to their feelings of not being enough, not being appreciated, not being loved or worthy, etc. 

There's a chance that goes away once we say, "Hey, I'm just trying to help here...what can I do?"

The more we say things of that nature, the less need there is to freak out over not being loved, accepted, etc. 

If you're mad at me, and I say, "I'm so sorry you're angry, how can I help," what can you possibly attack me over?  I'm giving you exactly what you're asking for.  And no matter what you respond with, I'll say, "I'm so sorry you FEEL/FELT that way, I never meant to hurt you.  Tell me what I can do."

Can you see the pattern?  I'm giving you the power, I'm putting you in charge.  Why would anyone continue to fight when I'm giving you the win?

Over time, this has massive dividends because it shows arguing leads to arguing, while talking leads to validation.  So talk to me, tell me what you're feeling, and I'll validate what you're feeling is real.  Then we can skip all the blowout drama and just live life.

Hi Pook075 ,

I'm a bit confused. I got the impression that you have always been able to resolve your struggles with the BPD people in your life using this mentality. But then, in this (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=3061577.msg13232918#msg13232918) other post, you talk a lot about calling 9-1-1 and at times having the pwBPD placed on an involuntary psych hold.

So my question is about the "making them feel loved and supported in every interaction and making them feel like they matter and they're seen" approach.

In that period of your life, did you not have BPD knowledge yet and therefore did not know a better way of dealing with them? Or is it that when living together, the compassionate approach, alone, isn't enough?

By the way, my wife has been calm, just deeply sad.

Dealing with a teen BPD is a lot different than an adult, and in my case I didn't understand enough about BPD at the time to make any lasting impacts.  With our kid, the police were called many times.  With my BPD ex-wife, there was probably once or twice I should have called, but I never did.

I give that advice when there's new or escalating violence in the home, specifically when it's a mom with an enraged husband and scared kids.  We know things tend to escalate in these relationships so if you're already at getting hit or being threatened, it's time to create some distance.

By calling the police, it's creating a hard boundary (and a lasting memory) that it's not okay to threaten or attack.  Luckily, most relationships don't get to that point.  For example, if my ex wife slapped me, I didn't see that as a threat to my safety.  If she threw a knife at me, that's a different story entirely.

I do think the compassionate approach can be enough, especially in your situation with what you've described and your wife wanting to return home.

She was supposed to stay for just one night. However, since she was a bit sick and feverish, I suggested she stay one more day. That same night, we had a minor conflict. The next day, we had a major conflict in which she started yelling the same stuff all over again.

At the moment, I just wanted to drag her out of my apartment's door by force. I said I would do it, and I meant it. But as I get close to her, I feel pity for her, and at the same time, I feel like I'm approaching something precious, so my body language says it, and she feels it as well. After some additional ranting from the bathroom (as if she were in danger), she unflips and stops her rant. Then my feelings start to unflip as well. As she drops the attitude and nonsense arguments, I approach. Then she drops the grandiose attitude, allowing herself to be vulnerable, and soon we are kissing each other. Yeah, it's crazy how fast all of that happened.

But this time it's not as if the outburst was forgotten, because she knows the consequence. It is obvious. She knows that now it will be very unlikely that I allow her to stay for another weekend in my place.

My conclusion is that just a little bit of confidence is already enough to "free her madness."

What I'm trying to understand is why she isn't ranting at her mother, given the fact that her mother, when drunk, does everything that triggers her. In the past she did scream at her mother, but she certainly hasn't bullied her mother like she did to me. Currently, as a rule of the house, her mother said she wouldn't tolerate that anymore. Ok, but I said the same, and it didn't work. And my word is much firmer than her mother's. Maybe it is the fact that she sees me as emotionally strong and "unshakeable," while her mother is seen as senior, vulnerable, and breakable. If it's not that, then I'm missing some piece of this puzzle.

I'm curious.  You said she could come home for a day, and the day went pretty well.  So you let her stay a second day and it all fell apart.  I wonder if that alone explains what happened...she became so stressed the 2nd day over staying/leaving, it just all boiled over.

Your wife currently has emotional problems with you, so you'd see the brunt of her frustration.  These boundaries are also pretty new and it's perfectly normal for things to get worse before they get better; she's pushing back because she's used to being able to.  It's a transition period that nobody would handle well.

Why doesn't the mom receive the same treatment?  Because that's not new and mom's boundaries are established.  Also maybe because if mom kicks her out as well, there's nowhere left to go.  BPDs always have someone they're close to, and even though mom isn't ideal, that's what she has right now so she's making the best of it.  The relationship with mom lets her remain bitter with you...I'm guessing the opposite was true when you first got together.

It's also possible that your "firmness" could also be too strict for this transition.  Your boundaries should be based on her decisions...if she can't stop screaming, she can't stay.  That's fair and it's her choice.  But if she didn't lose it on day one and she was going to be kicked out anyway, that could cause a good bit of stress for anyone.

The possibility of her staying for good was not on the table, and she knew it. It is true that after the 2nd night, she became stressed about the idea of leaving when she felt like here was her home. That may have added some internal tension to her because she was hoping that I could change my mind. During her ranting, she did say that this is her house. She also said all of the other nonsense that comes along with this. Such as saying that I should leave instead of her (which does not make sense since I would have to rent another place for me, and she would not be able to pay the rent of our current home).

But this was not the issue. The discussion began when I questioned her about a bottle of juice that I was storing to make kombucha, and she opened it. Then she immediately felt defensive and started to overreact. Then I explained something like these words:

"I was locking up stuff when you were here because I could not get to an agreement with you, or you would not follow the agreement, and after you left I had unlocked it because I thought I would not have to worry about this anymore. And before you returned, I told you that you would have to understand that this is my space now, and I thought you had understood and respected that, but it seems like you took the opportunity that it was unlocked to check in it."

Since she was already overreacting, I had to send my message by talking in the same fashion as her so that I wasn't interrupted. So I did not use a calm tone of voice at all (I hate when she interrupts me over and over, especially when she tries to finish my sentences with a completely different continuation). Anyway, after this, the apocalypse began.

I just did it. I managed to stop being attacked.

I think it is all about my feelings. I'm not having any negative feelings about her now, so it was easier for me to let her know that I miss her, want to be with her, and that she is very important to me. That was enough.

So it seems like the trick is to maintain the distance, allowing the mutual attraction to build up, and perhaps sometimes have a casual night together, just as a reminder of how good it is to have each other.

Bingo!

Yes, there are always two sides to the coin and our feelings certainly play a big role in how a BPD feels.  By changing our behavior, it can stop the arguments and allow things to begin to heal.  I'm glad you finally got there.

Im wondering if the dynamics here are similar to my ex’s situation.

We all know that the deep root cause of a pwBPD behaviour is driven by a fear of abandonment and a need to feel loved/wanted/needed. That is why it is usually only the romantic partner that gets to see all the dysregulated behaviour and bare the full brunt of it. Often anyone outside that closest inner circle are completely unaware of a disorder as they will hardly ever get triggered by anyone that simply doesn’t mean that much to them.

We have all heard the saying you can choose your friends but you can’t choose your family. She chose you and will have a deeper fear of abandonment from you than she will her mother, she didn’t have a choice in her parent. Maybe her abuse of her mother is more silent and less obvious than her abuse towards you.

To use my case as an example. I believe I made her split when I said the words “stop buying drugs from him you are killing me”
That is certainly when I noticed small signs of her withdrawing before she monkey branched with him.

She actually said the words to me “I don’t want to destroy you, it doesn’t matter if I destroy him”

Does she get dysregulated and verbally attack him? I don’t know the answer to that. Does she abuse him in other ways? You bet your bottom dollar she does. She was unfaithful to him for a year! That was while she was renting a house on her own.

Since she has moved in with him, for just over a year now, she hasn’t to my knowledge been unfaithful to him. Certainly not with me but then I’ve put up boundaries. But she is now in the situation that Pook has mentioned about your wife, living under someone else’s roof, so the stakes are higher now if she dysregulated and may become homeless.

My ex avoids seeing me nowadays. When she does she can easily get triggered, start playing the victim, or get angry for no real reason. She still acts with emotion, not indifference. If I meant nothing she would act with indifference.

It is a little different in your situation as there is no third party and you are working towards improvement so she can come back home at some point whereas for my ex and I that isn’t the case, but I think that is why the pwBPD will emotionally dysregulate and verbally attack, because you were chosen and the object of their love, whereas the love for a parent, and I believe the ‘love’ my ex thinks she has for her bf is nothing but an attempt to bandage her emotional wounds, are completely different.

Hi Rowdy,

My wife has many other relatives nearby from her mother's and father's families, and she is close and loved by all of them, so she has many other places to stay. The only thing is that she would not want to bring trouble to her parents.

She is very close to her mother. I have seen her worst reactions toward her mom, and I would not call it abuse. Yeah, her mom is not as intimate with her as I am, but it's still very close. My wife is very sensible, while her mom is very gross, so when her mom talks to her, many times it comes out as disrespectful, but my wife has been holding it up.

The point is that my wife has been showing a surprising capability of controlling her emotions. That makes me wonder why she didn't use those skills when I questioned her about the juice bottle. I think it's because she is just addicted to raging out at me.

Hopefully after her baseline endogenous opioid tone is raised by the medication, she will not feel the need for such spikes anymore, so those addictive behaviors should subside. Time will tell...

Now let me comment on your experience:


You realize that when she said that, she was already having an affair, right? What was your reaction?

At this point, I would have to focus all of my energy on not following the path of O. J. Simpson and getting in jail (well, I'm not a football star). But instead, I would use her drug addiction to take her out of my place and, hopefully, to jail.

But I don't think I would have allowed things to get so far. I would have tracked her down if needed as an attempt to find out her intentions and predispositions before anything happened. I think it is about self-respect. But over time, as we get more experience, this kind of stuff becomes more predictable.

She said that after we had separated, but yes probably going on before we did, if not physically, emotionally at least. That’s the nature of monkey branching

Rowdy- BPD affects the closest relationships the most. It would make sense that the intimate partner experiences the dissociations/projections/anger but that isn't the only relationship that does.

Looking at the other boards, the parents and the adult children and siblings experience them too. Which one has it the worse- I think that can vary. Each relationship is  unique and family configurations can vary. Family members are close relationships in different ways. I don't think there's monkey branching in the same way as a partner. It's not possible to go from mother to mother. There's only one mother.

Family relationships aren't romantic relationships but there are other emotions associated with them. I also think that Karpman triangle dynamics have an influence and the anger is directed at whoever is in Persecutor position. That also can change. Spitting can occur with the chidlren - where one is the Golden Child- the one the BPD parent perceives as positive and another can be the Scapegoat. I think Karpman triangle dynamics influence who the anger is at when there's monkey branching in romantic relationships.

What seems to be a common situation on these boards is, if the pwBPD is a female, their anger/projections also seem to be directed more to female relatives- mothers, sisters, daughers, sisters in law, and daughters in law. Females seem to be more prone to the projections, maybe because they are more similar to the pwBPD than the males, or the dynamics are different.

If the pwBPD is not acting out more towards their mother- why is that? Children are influenced by how they are raised. If fear of abandonment is a factor- then one could assume that there's less with the mother but that isn't always the case. If the mother also is disordered, then the attachment may not be secure. For a child, their very existence depends on their mother. Without a secure attachment, they may fear upsetting her, and even once they are adults,  they are still influenced by that.

I think in the case of monkey branching, like yours, it's likely Karpman triangle dynamics. The newest partner is in Rescuer position. This is the new person, the one they believe is going to meet their emotional needs. The former partner is in Persecutor position, with the pwBPD feeling like a victim. Eventually, the disorderered dynamics will probably occur with the new partner too as that relationship gets closer.

Hi NotWendy.

Yes from my experience I know that those closest to my ex have been the targets of her contempt. She has said as much, she literally singled out myself, her sister, and her business partner, who WAS one of her best friends for over 30 years.

She does seem to be more spiteful towards females. We have two sons, the eldest she never bonded with as well as our youngest. I think she had post natal depression with our eldest, and wanted to switch roles so I worked part time and did the majority of the childcare while she went full time when our eldest was about 2 years old (there is 4 1/2 year age gap between them) so don’t know if this is why she bonded more with our youngest.

I’ve mentioned before that her grandmother (mums mother) was mentally ill and had been sectioned several times. They clashed and her relationship with her was frosty to say the least. Her mother is cold, never told her children she loved them or hugged them. I would not say they have a close relationship.

She is the eldest of three children and was always seen as a problem child. Her father was pleased that I “took her off his hands” but they have a good relationship.  Second in command is her brother and he has the golden child status. Her sister is the youngest and also has a better relationship with her mother, although due to the coldness it could still be better. Youngest sister was deeply traumatised when the grandmother came out of mental institution and came to live with them for a while., she would sleep with a knife under her pillow.

Ex’s relationship with my mother is ok but she would often badmouth her to me. Same with my brothers partner.

She idolises her father, and thought very highly of my father before he passed away.

I understand that all those close to the pwBPD can and most likely will be subject to some sort of acting out. What I believe is the pwBPD chooses a partner, and idolises them, puts them on a pedestal and relies on that person, their favourite person, to be the source of their own happiness and to give them some sense of identity. It is maybe because they want their partner so badly to love them, adore them, and want them to see them as perfect in their eyes, that any form of criticism, even if it’s as simple as asking them not to drink a cartoon of juice in the fridge, or in my case to stop doing drugs, stop drinking alcohol as much, bruises their ego and then causes them to split. Because you have said or done something that shows them in a negative light, they must be all bad. And because you have pointed that out, you’ve made them feel bad so you must be bad.

As you say, you can’t monkey branch between mothers, you only have one. Maybe this has some bearing on whether or not a pwBPD splits on their mother as they only have one. I’m sure it’s not unheard of, as you say there are enough examples on this board. But in the majority of cases a borderline child will still be in their parents life, whereas it’s easier for the borderline to monkey branch to another relationship and cut their partner out of their life.

There can be discards without monkey branching and with family members. There are examples on the other sections of this board of daughters who have gone NC with their parents for years, and mother in laws being alienated from their sons due to some perceived issue the BPD daughter in law may have of them. These mothers are devastated. It's especially difficult when this separates them from grandchildren.

From what I could see with my BPD mother, it appeared that her relationships met some need of hers. At least this is how it seemed to me. It's hard to know what anyone else is thinking. While she didn't monkey branch with my father, I did see her "discard" relationships. I think this is an aspect of the push pull dynamics as well. How long the "discard" lasts can vary. Even in a romantic relationship, some might "recycle" if the former partner is also willing to do that.

A romantic relationship meets certain needs that family relationships don't, but family relationships also are significant and meet needs as well. Even the person in Persecutor position meets a need. BPD relationships are not as stable. The configuration of Rescuer- Victim has a stablizing effect. Both people are aligned, and looking at a common "Persecutor". The pwBPD is in prefered Victim position. The Rescuer, for the moment, is painted white and so gets the benefit of that. For this to happen though, there needs to be someone or something in Persecutor position.

You are correct that in romantic relationship, the pwBPD chooses that person and also has expectations that this will somehow fulfill their needs. But if these expectations are unrealistic, then it's possible the pwBPD may then look at someone else in this same way.

While one doesn't monkey branch with family members in the same way, family members can sometimes also be cut off if the pwBPD perceives themselves as having been wronged in some way.

I think in many of these cases of "discard" and monkey branching, it's more about the pwBPD than the other person, or the other person not being aware of how their pwBPD thinks and so may get upset with them for some reason. We are all humans, and nobody is perfect.

I think it's normal to look back at a relationship and wonder what happened. It's part of emotional recovery.


 

Oh it’s definitely about the pwBPD. I was not aware of bpd and don’t even know if that’s what my ex has, although since hearing about it, watching videos, relating with every single account of it and the box ticking on the DSM I am 95% sure she does.

With that being said, I chose the words “stop getting drugs you are killing me” because I thought it might shock her into, well…… stop getting drugs. With the knowledge I have now, I can see and understand what might have gone through her head …….. I think she is bad for getting them, she is actually killing me etc and would have tried a different tact.

Was I wrong to tell her to stop. No of course I wasn’t. Was I looking out for her best interests. Yes of course I was.

But that didn’t matter, and it was too late. I had wounded her.

So she goes off with someone that can validate her. The person that actually supplied her with cocaine. And also shared an unhealthy appetite for gin…….. Mothers ruin they call it.

And in doing so ignored all the red flags that comes with the new fp. A man that lies through his teeth. Neglects and abuses children. Animal neglect and abuse. Verbal physical and emotional abuse to his spouse. Alcohol problem and drug addiction for over 30 years. Claims of sexual abuse. Claims of catching fatal disease. Lacks morals. I’m not perfect but out of that little lot I can only hold my hand up to abusing drugs although I hated it and begged her to stop.

Now, nobody in their right mind would want that in their lives, but a pwBPD is not exactly in their right mind. Throw a heap of love bombs at them and it makes them feel great, and then they think they are in love. Added bonus points for using him for his money. So was it my fault. No not really. Is it all about the pwBPD and their version of feelings based reality. Of course it is.

Rowdy,

It came to me that your ex might have felt like she had to choose between the drugs and you because she realized that continuing to use them would destroy you, so she chose the drugs instead of you. And then in that sentence about not destroying you, she was talking about her drug usage (and perhaps also how it worsens her behavior). Maybe you already knew this. But anyway, I was a bit insensitive, so sorry for that.

There were times in which my wife was distancing herself from me because she thought that her limitations were too extreme, and I didn't deserve having to go through this. This was her trying to "free me from her problems."

A couple of years ago, I had asked my wife to stay in her mom's house a bit. However, I was very frustrated at her rages, so I was treating her extremely distantly, so she felt like she would not make me any good, and so she decided to stay in her mom's house permanently.

At first, I didn't question it because I was expecting her to improve somehow, at least in the way she treated me. However, two months later, since she was 10x worse in terms of anxiety and depression, I decided to literally "rescue her" from there. Because of her specific phobia worsening, I had to use a blindfold before approaching her, and she would not come out of the room, so it was really limiting. She noticed the burden it was placing on me, so she resisted coming back to our home. I convinced her to come for a weekend, and she accepted to stay but still "ran away" back to her mom's house on Monday. It took me a lot of talking to get her back home again. Then it took me more than one month to restore her mental health state. I had to treat her as a "home inpatient," serving her food in bed while always using a blindfold when I was near her. But it worked, at least to bring her anxiety and depression to the usual levels.

The point is that sometimes having a mentally ill partner may mean carrying a big burden on your back, which at times you might not want to, or your partner may decide that you don't have to.

Hi Notwendy,

I think the Karpman Triangle dynamic is just a way of describing the roles in which pwBPD try to put us and themselves so that the drama can be promoted. However, this only happens when they want it. It does not occur in all of their relationships all of the time.

My wife's mom is obnoxious toward her daughters. She keeps complaining loudly about tons of stuff. She also criticizes my wife a lot, especially about appearance, which is exactly my wife's weak spot. Her mom is certainly the persecutor.

Yet, my wife is being neither the victim nor the rescuer. She is just not engaging in the drama. I think some people with BPD really can't control their emotions, but more often than not they can but don't want to.

No need for apology SuperDaddy, you grow a thick skin when you have been in a relationship with a borderline for nearly 30 years and are then discarded.

I appreciate peoples thoughts and points of view.. I can take constructive criticism or harsh facts if Ive made mistakes as without them you never learn anything.

Yes the point about the drugs was something that I originally thought was the sole problem for our marriage failing, until I learned about bpd and hearing a lot of peoples experiences.