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Here I am again… returning to this discussion board when times are rough.  Don’t know if I want advice or just someone to listen

The long and short - W decided to go on a lesbian dating site a few weeks ago.  She didn’t tell me beforehand, and when she told me I was a bit naive to what she was saying. I thought it was just another social media site for people in the LGBTQ community.  Nonetheless, W befriended a woman there, and when she told me she was going to meet this woman, I thought she was asking if it was ok to meet someone from the internet who is a lesbian.  I didn’t understand there was a mutual attraction.   W then started talking about an open marriage.  I don’t think that is something that could work for me, especially involving a pwBPD.

Anyway, she went out with this woman twice.  I see was under the impression that we agreed to keeping things platonic between them until we could tall about it further.  Of course, that didn’t happen, and I told her in T today that I felt uncomfortable.  Of course, W disregulated.

W feels i am trapping her in this marriage and forcing her to be monogamous.  All I am asking for at the moment is time to weigh pros and cons.  There is a whole lot of background here that I won’t get into right now, but Nonetheless, I don’t see what is left of our relationship if she is also seeing someone else.  I feel like at that point I am no longer getting love or attention.

If anyone has advice or experience with poly relationships, i’d be interested to hear.  But right now for me this feels like a step too far.

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I will add that I feel proud of myself for standing firm in a calm and respectable way because I usually roll over and go along with the things she wants.  I also feel good that when W disregulated in T session today, T used the same techniques people teach here for dealing with those situations.  And they didn’t work for a trained T much better that they work for me.  Just tells me that pwBPD are difficult to deal with even for professionals, and to be less hard on myself for contributing to the chaos.

Max, I think this comes down to you, your values, and boundaries.

Other people may have experience with poly relationships but what can work for one person doesn't necessarily work with others. If someone else finds that manageable, that doesn't mean you have to. From what I have heard- (and I don't have experience with this) is that a poly relationship is agreeable to all involved. However, this isn't currently a poly relationship. Your wife has entered a romantic relationship outside the marriage without you knowing.

You and your wife have been married in a monogomous relationship. She went on a dating site and didn't tell you and  began a romantic relationship with someone else. That's not being poly, it's infidelity.

IMHO, this is also a triangulation.  Likely, she got attention and that felt good and now the new person is painted "white" for now.

It's good that you didn't just give in but IMHO, more importantly- are your boundaries on this. If your value is that your marriage is monogomous- then whatever sexual orientation your wife is- she married you. Now she wants to change the terms of the marriage. If she doesn't want to keep the marriage monogomous, it's your choice whether or not to continue in this relationship.

What she's asking is to have both- you as the supportive husband and her affair partner. You aren't trapping her in the marriage and forcing her to be monogomous. You married with the intention of a monogomous relationship. She could decide to leave the marriage too- but you've been a support to her- she wants to have both.

This is not about whether or not one has tolerance or acceptance for LGBTQ. It's about crossing the line from friendship to more when someone is married and this applies to same sex and heterosexual relationships too.

A dating site is a dating site. It's not where you find just friends. If someone is in a monogomous marriage and they go on a dating site for either men or women, and enters into another relationship, this is a violation of the marriage agreement.

If I could draw on my own experience with my BPD mother, something like this would have been one of her projected "solutions" to her internal emotional distress and a new "identity" due to her poor sense of self and friend group. She didn't consider LGBTQ at the time because in her era, people were more closeted. In her era the women's movement was beginning- and so she embraced that- but more as an identity than in actions, but in general, none of her external focuses were effective as a solution to her BPD.

Although BPD mother threatened divorce from time to time, she didn't actually follow through with that. I don't know if there was infidelity or not. As to my father- he may have gotten upset about her behavior but he too, didn't follow through with a divorce. I don't know all the reasons why but I think one aspect is the push pull nature of the dynamics. There'd be a situation that was distressing like yours is now, but then, when BPD mother sensed she may have pushed too far, her behavior would settle, things would be calm again for a while and the sense of needing to do something would would be less.

The decision is actually yours Max. Is this a deal breaker for you? Or is this going to be one more wave to ride out? My guess is that the luster of the new person isn't going to be the solution your wife is seeking. She's going to realize at one point that her new paramour is human too, like you are, like everyone else is, and that all relationships can get complicated. It doesn't seem like she wants to leave the marriage.

Your part is to decide what you want to do. There's no right or wrong answer. What you can't control are your wife's feelings or actions about it. In any marriage, over time, we encounter people who we may find attractive. Our decision is what we do about it. It can happen that someone realizes they are same sex attracted years into a heterosexual marriage. Some couples work this out and for some, it can't work out. Some people remain together when there's infidelity, some don't.

Your part is to figure out your feelings and what your boundaries are.

Triangulation - didn’t think of it that way.  Yes, this is what I feel is happening, and why I feel an open relationship would not work with a pwBPD.  The two romantic partners woild never be on equal footing.  One is always white, the other black.  If she got into an argument with me, she runs to her.  And vice versa.  I don’t see how there would not be constant drama. 

It’s already happened.  She got really upset that the woman she is interested in had a date with another woman.  In other words, upset that this woman did not want to be monogamous.  I knew W was somewhat bisexual when we got married, but she hd basically told me that was in her past (the drug use part of her past).  I was trying to be empathetic to W’s confusion here, but the jealousy and double standard toward her new romantic interest was a a real eye opener. 

You see now that her sexual orientation and her use of drugs are not in the past.

BPD affects all relationships. It's not a surprise that it impacts this new one too.

More importantly, you know how you feel about a third person in your relationship and can pay attention to that, because this actually is a third person in your relationship- whether it is male or female.

Take away the additional descriptors. These are not the main issue in the relationship.

At the core of this is monogomy. You can't control any one else. You can be empathetic to someone's gender confusion, and be an ally to someone who is LGBTQ and in addition, want to be in a monogomous romantic relationship. Regardless- if one person wants monogomy in a romantic relationship, and the other one doesn't- it's a problem whether it's a same sex orientation or not.

One difficult aspect of the kind of dynamics in your relationship is losing focus of your own feelings and thinking while buying into the pwBPD's emotional thinking. Your wife is not going to own her part in this situation. She will "rationalize"  it from her own victim perspective. ie, she isn't breaking the marital agreement- she will instead say you are forcing her to be monogomous and keeping her from discovering herself.

Fact is- she can do whatever she chooses, but there are consequences to actions. In a monogomous relationship, someone can stray- but the consequence may be the loss of the relationship. She wants the freedom and not the consequences. Why not? If people could do whatever they wanted with another attractive person and not have any consequences- maybe more people would do it? But that's not how a monogomous marriage usually works. There are consequences.

Truly- it's up to you to decide what your feelings are and what the consequences of your wife having outside relationships are going to be. That's a difficult situation.

To add- consequences can be of many kinds, not only divorce. One might be that the spouse would be hurt- which could deter someone from infidelity, or the financial aspect of divorce, or effect on family and children, and even the feeling of remorse, low self esteem from the act. There are many reasons people don't violate a monogomy.

One difference is that they choose not to. They don't see this as being "forced" into it. They value it and they don't wish to have consequences for it. They don't do it and don't want their spouse to do it.

Where you are possibly feeling confused is thinking your wanting monogomy in marriage is doing something wrong to your wife- like imposing this on her, not being empathetic to her wanting to explore her orientation rather than knowing your values and boundaries and choice of monogamy. There is nothing wrong with wanting a monogomous marriage.

The consequences at the moment are your feelings. You are feeling uncomfortable with what your wife wants to do. It may be that the choice of consequence becomes tolerating your discomfort rather than have your wife experience consequences of her actions.

You may want some time to weigh pros and cons, but that would be your choice to do so. She's going to do what she chooses. You don't really need to ask her for permission for you to think about this. Your thoughts and feelings are your own.

I don't know any statistics but years ago it was often said that therapists with BPD patients often needed their own therapist.  PwBPD are not just trying patients, they're the most trying patients.

A decent therapist balances their case load with clients who are easier to treat and limits the number of overwhelming clients like ones with BPD so the the therapist does not burn out. Many therapists refuse to treat people with BPD. The problem with clients with BPD is they often go back and forth between liking and hating the therapist just like what occurs in close relationships that the person with BPD has. I would be suspicious of a therapist who only takes clients with BPD as the therapist could be using the clients to deal with their own struggles to manage their emotions. When I hired my last therapist, I asked her some questions about her own life. I wanted a therapist who was happily married, a good parent to her children, and around my age. She was the best therapist I ever had and did not project her own problems onto me.

I've been an opponent of appeasing and enabling- and a supporter of boundaries. One aspect of my parents' relationship that was puzzling to me was why did my father tolerate her behavior? It seemed to me that whatever she did, he just went along with it.

I gained more perspective on this in the later years of her life as I am the relative who was most involved with her elder care. (with boundaries still)

Emotionally, she seemed to be in constant turmoil, inside but to her, it appeared as a crisis- or needs, or a solution, external to her. However, by the time a reactive plan was placed, she'd be focused on something else. This was similar to how she'd seemingly always been- it was needing some new thing, some new "identity" or focus. These were external "reasons" for her emotions-  something besides her own feelings. We might react, to fix the issue- but it wasn't the solution.

Where this paralleled my situation with her was being involved with her care in her elder years. Her medical issues and emotional ones were addressed appropriately but it seemed she was frequently unsettled by something. Sometimes it was better to not get into a conflicting discussion with her. What appeared to me as my father being passive/appeasing now also sometimes may have been seeing that "this too shall pass".

You've also experienced times of crisis where your wife does something that seem intolerable. Yet, you also have a lot on your plate- you have kids, you are supporting the family and to respond with boundaries will elicit a response from your wife that you don't really wish to deal with. I think you've also experienced that if you look at these as individual events, they don't last very long and the "solution" doesn't either. The larger pattern- the series of external solutions that don't solve the issues is the result of her emotions.

My take on her latest interest is that this is one more of these "solutions" that also will pass in time. Whatever her issue is with the marriage, to her, must be something external. She thinks maybe it's because she'd rather be with a woman so she goes on a dating site. Here, she gains attention, interest, and this helps bolster her self esteem. There's the luster of a new interest. You see how short lived that was- this person isn't doing what she wants either.

There's a secondary gain to this. You react and your focus is on her. Now there's another conflict, crisis, and you are drawn into it. Now, the attention is on her and her feelings.

While my stance remains with boundaries and not enabling- another approach is to just let this pan out and see what happens. Discussing this may not be effective for you. If she could see your point of view she wouldn't have done it. You aren't "giving her permission" if you don't argue about it with her. You can simply say your wish is for monogamy, you don't want an open marriage but you aren't going to decide for her what she's going to do and then, not get into it with her more. 

It's very possible that this too shall pass. She will find out soon enough, if not already, that no person is perfect. It's also possible that she realizes that she is mainly attracted to women and if that's true, there's not much you can do about that.

Very helpful, Wendy.  Thank you.

Part of my problem is that I am naturally an open minded person.  But BPDw wants black and white.  My open mindedness says that I need to consider pros and cons and options.  So I tell her that I cannot say right now that I am opposed to the idea of an open marriage, but this is sudden and I need time to process.  W takes this as a “green light” and moves forward, placing me into a situation that goes against my open minded nature by having to Say “no”.  I feel forced into the black and white world.

It’s a mess.  But I need to remember she is the one wanting to make the relationship change.  She is the one applying the pressure.  I can tell her I need more time to process and that is ok.  She can interpret however she wants, and take the action she wants.

One of the hardest things to do was to say "no" to my BPD mother. However, she'd sometimes push a boundary in increments to the point where I felt I had to say "no". Then, she'd react as if I had hurt her somehow. That felt terrible. I would not intentionally do something hurtful to my mother.

You wouldn't do something intentionally hurtful to your wife. Nobody wants to be the bad guy in the Karpman triangle with someone we care about, but I realized that, if I was going to have boundaries, I would have to also accept that she may think that way, (but that doesn't make it true).

Boundaries are about us, we can't control someone else. If marital fidelity is one of your values, you can't waver on it in your own actions. Your wife will do as she chooses.

Boundaries also involve knowing what is "you" and what isn't "you". It's possible to be firm about monogomy and also open minded about other people's choices but know they aren't for you. In a way, your wife may have perceived your being open minded as you not having objections to her having a same sex romantic relationship. Your wife has poor boundaries. If you also don't have clear boundaries, then it's unclear for both of you.

I think what is confusing here is the incremental shift from your wife having a female friend to having a romantic female friend. If this had been a male friend, perhaps your feelings, and where the line was crossed, would have been clearer to you. It's OK for your wife to have a friendship with other females. You can be open minded about having both gay and straight friends. It's an issue if your marriage is monogomous and the friendship becomes romantic.

While I don't personally agree with the extent of what my father tolerated, it also wasn't my relationship to decide on or understand. I know it took a lot for him to be in the relationship. It also would have taken a lot for him to get out of it and also I think he knew how emotionally fragile my mother was. I see some similarities to your position here. On one hand, this could be a deal breaker but you may not wish to go in that direction at this time.

From what I can see- I don't think you are OK with an open marriage. Where you need time to process, is what you decide you wish to do about her request. You can still keep your value about monogamy for yourself.

My best wild guess is that "this too shall pass" and if it doesn't- then her sexual orientation isn't anything you could have done differently to change.

In his first marriage to a uBPD/NPD woman, she began affairs about 18 months after the marriage. The marriage became "open," not because he agreed but because he chose not to leave because of the children. At one point, there was some doubt as to whether he was the bio father of one of the children, but fortunately we now know he is.

During one of their conversations about her sexual behavior, she said,

"I know it's wrong, and I know it hurts you, but it's what I want, so I'm going to do it."

That summed it up. She's now in her 60s and continues the same behavior.

I think that sums up this kind of thinking. I think a lot of BPD behavior is about them, driven by their own emotions and thinking, and not as personal to the other person. Our ability to do anything about it is limited. Our part is to decide what we are going to do about it.

I learned that boundaries are best expressed in "I" terms. What am I going to do, rather than "you" terms.

Once a boundary is stated, there's no point in continuing circular discussions. The next steps are your own actions.

This would be an example of the boundary in "I"terms:

"I acknowlege that you wish to have an open marriage. I have thought about this and I don't want to have an open marriage".

Her reply: "you are forcing monogamy on me".

Your reply: "Monogamy in marriage is an important value to me. I am not going to have a relationship with someone outside the marriage. I don't agree with your wish to do so,  but I also don't control what you do. This is my answer. I don't wish to discuss this idea further."

Then you don't discuss it more.

She may react, make you the problem. All you did was state your boundary for yourself.

I think she knows that what she is doing isn't according to the marriage you both entered into. Pw BPD have a difficult time with the emotion of shame. To handle this- she has to have you be the one in the wrong.

Your fidelity, your ethics, may irk her because she may want you to do this, or agree to it to justify her own actions. You keep your own boundary in check for yourself. My 2 cents- if you were to do the same, have a relationship with another person, I think she'd react very poorly to that but it's not worth the complication or effect on your own self esteem to violate your own values to do so.

I am saying this on the premise you are not going to divorce your wife over this at this point. Nor do you want to have an open marriage. So there's no point in continued circular discussions over this or therapy sessions. That just gives attention to it and it's not going to change what she chooses. If you hold your ground, this puts the decision back in her court. It's hers, not yours.

Really helpful advice here.  The “conversion” right now is as follows:

- i should have known she was this way when I married her.
- i am depriving her of who she is.
- she doesn’t want to hurt me or break up our family.
- I don’t go along with this because I have been brainwashed by society for having traditional monogamy views.
- if i don’t go along with this I am controlling her and she might as well kill herself.
-if I file for divorce she won’t except 50/50 parenting time and if that is awarded she might as well kill herself

It’s clear blame shifting to avoid her own shame.  I think on a deep level is bringing up shame from her past.  She may be realizing her failure in previous relationships was due to her inability to be monogamous.

But here’s another big red flag - she has been reading a book about open relationships, and I think that is validating for her, and where her language about me being brainwashed by society came from.  The red flag is that the woman she is interested in pointed to her book.  So while W claims the other woman is not trying to break up our marriage, clearly that is bit the case.

Hi maxsterling ,

Firstly, please check those quotes from this (https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2010-06891-012) study (full PDF version):

- "BPD-associated symptoms, such as substance abuse, anorexia, self-injury, depersonalization, and sexual overstimulation, can be treated successfully with opioid receptor antagonists."
- "Frequent and risky sexual contacts and attention-seeking behavior can be explained by efforts to make use of the rewarding effects of human attachment mediated by the EOS, which are also the reason why patients show frantic efforts to avoid abandonment."

In my opinion, all of that is part of a hypersexual behavior that targets stimulating her EOS. It's the same for my wife.

My wife has never been bisexual or anything like that. However, in the beginning of our relationship I noticed she was watching porn videos every day and lying about it. Then I noticed some of the titles indicated they were lesbian videos, but not all. I questioned her about that behavior and asked if she was not satisfied sexually in our relationship. She was having multiple orgasms with me, so I was intrigued. Shortly after, she stopped watching the videos.

Recently, years later, I have noticed she is doing this again, but now she watches only lesbian videos. My conclusion is that she feels like watching lesbian videos is a way of fulfilling her hypersexual stimulation without having to deal with the guilt of doing something unfaithful. Because she knows that her watching lesbian videos does not make me feel uncomfortable and that I would even be ok if she had an actual lesbian relationship. But that's me.

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Secondly, I'd suggest you read the "Sex at Dawn" book. It explains how humans were primarily non-monogamous before the advent of agriculture. This has helped me to understand what jealousy is, allowing me to take full control over those feelings.

Soon after reading this book, I had an open relationship, and it was great, but both of us were more in the exploration zone rather than trying to build a family. An open marriage (polyamory) is much more serious and requires complete honesty from both parties and also requires both to have "nerves of steel" (well, at least for the partner who is being "supplanted" by someone else).

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Conclusion:

Have you ever asked her why she is seeking a female partner instead of a male partner? Have you asked her what she would think if you also had a secondary partner?

Personally, I'd think that having a lesbian affair instead of a heterosexual affair is, from her perspective, a midterm solution to have her EOS stimulated without overly insulting you. From my interpretation of that study, I believe an opioid receptor antagonist medication could possibly put an end to her need to follow this path. And I would think that this is more likely to happen if specialized therapy is done along with the medication.

Superdaddy -

Interesting.

One comment is that a double standard definitely exists here.  She is already jealous and possessive of this potential love interest for not being monogamous herself.  She says it would be fine for me to date someone else, but I suspect that reply is a self-justification of her own desires.  Really, if I was to date other women, there wouldn’t be much point in remaining married.  W doesn’t provide much to this R/s as it is.  Plus, it would not be fair to any new partner.

Do you believe any of this?

Take a step back from the subject content and look at the behavior pattern. IMHO, every one of these statements are based on your wife's feelings and a solution isn't reached by discussions. These are leads into circular arguments. This is the kind of thing BPD mother would do when she's focused on something as the "solution" for her. Often she'd persist and persist until my father (or us kids) would just say "yes" to get her to stop. This led to agreeing to things we would not ordinarily agree to, just to end it.

Everyone wants what they want- that's not unusual, but we don't go about it this way. People usually weight the pros and cons of these wants. Your wife wants what she wants, and this is how she gets it. Chances are, you give in too, just to get the situation to resolve, and so this works for her.

Rather than focus on the content of what she's saying- look at these statements as potential circular arguments. Discussing these has no resolution. It would all be JADE to do so. What will stop them is a "yes" to her request. But it seems you don't want to agree to this, so now what?

Just stop talking about it and stop focusing on it. This is adding attention to it and that is a reinforcer. One can be "addicted" to drama. No good will come out of a discussion on this topic. She wants what she wants, and you have your own feelings about it.

It's possible the other woman doesn't want to break up your marriage. If she's not monogamous herself, she may have looked on the dating site for someone else who is in a relationship. To her defense- it's your wife who put herself out there on the dating site. This woman may have assumed your wife was in an open relationship if she's married and on a dating site.

That concept is not new. A book about open marriage came out in the 1970's, along with books on all kinds of new ideas about sex and relationships. If open marriage is a choice, so is monogamy. Choosing what you can manage is not being brainwashed. Where your wife's boundaries are not clear- she wants you to feel like she does. But two people don't always feel the same way about things.

My own take on this is that she's going to do what she wants to do. IMHO, I'd stop the discussion, saying- "I don't agree with this but we are both adults who make their own choices here" and "I don't wish to discuss this further" and then don't engage in these discussions. I think this is one more "crisis" driven by her feelings and it will probably fizzle if you don't add fuel to it. If she really wants to explore with this woman, she's going to do it anyway.

As a Christian, I believe that marriage is two striving together to become one in everything.  I'm not trying to turn this into a religious topic or insert my religious beliefs here, other than to point out that adding someone else to the relationship generally goes against what most would perceive as a marriage (religious or secular).

Even in marriages at a courthouse, I've frequently heard something like, "To have and to hold, in sickness and in health, until death do us part."  The state views the conditions you describe as adultery, so I don't see how it's acceptable in any way. 

Of course, you have the final say in that but since you're here, it doesn't sound like you're too happy with it either.  That alone should tell you something in regards to figuring out where you stand.

Although it goes against my beliefs, I would ask my wife if she was okay if I started dating others as well.  Her reaction would tell me where the marriage stood and if I should continue to try.  If she said, "Sure, go sleep around," then that would be the end for me.  If she said, "Why on Earth would you think it's okay to ask me that, heck no you can't!" then maybe the marriage was worth fighting for.

I wish you luck!

I wouldn't say my BPD mother was unethical, but it was more like she knew the "rules" but it was that they applied to other people, but not to her. For example, while I was raised with rules about lying, that it was wrong, somehow BPD mother could lie, but there'd be discipline if I did. Still, my BPD mother had some limits. She would not have engaged in criminal behavior. It was more about getting her emotional needs met. Sometimes she would lie deliberately and other times, I think she believed that what she was saying was true.

I think it's similar to the double standard for your wife who is upset that the woman she's in contact with is not monogamous, while she isn't either.

I think if you asked your wife the question-  could you date other people, your wife may say "yes" in the moment, in order to get an agreement on her wanting to date other people. In the moment, she may actually mean it. However, should you actually do it, she'd go ballistic. Also, she'd not ever forgive you for it. It would be mentioned in arguments from that day forward.

Why? Because it fuels her victim perspective. One more reason that you are the bad guy in this situation. And because it would increase her fear of abandonment.

She doesn't want to lose the marriage. She wants to be able to date and be married to you too. In the moment. However, the reality of what she wants to do would not compare to her imagined feelings about how it would be. None of the "solutions" do.

What Pook mentioned is his value, his boundary. It can be based on core beliefs, and also what works for you, what you can manage. If you believe adultery is wrong, then don't do it, even if your wife does or says you can. You would be letting yourself down.. Even if you didn't believe it was wrong, there are solid reasons not to do it. It would at the least, add drama and complications to your situation.

Wendy, no, i believe none of that.  

And I agree, talking about it is circular and pointless.  W did bring up that she wanted to meet this woman for an activity yesterday.  I told her I preferred if they met during the day rather than the evening.  This turned into a huge argument that left me sleeping on the sofa.

From now on, my response will be “ok. What time will you be home?”  She knows how I feel.  No point in discussing it further.

I’m also learning this woman is basically homeless, yet has a job in the medical field.  This feels very suspicious and guaranteed drama.

Pook - I wouldn't call myself Christian, but I was raised with those values.  I work in a science field and explore reasons why things are they way are.  I see many evolutionary advantages to monogamous, stable relationships in terms of maximizing the time that can be expended on child raising and minimizing the time spent looking for and fighting over mates.  Also reduces transmission of disease. Those advantages may no longer be as valid in modern society, but there are reasons that monogamy is the standard for most marriages other than “God told me so”.  

I agree with this short, brief response. You've already said what you need to say.  She will make her own choices.

Monogamy is a value for me too. I think this is an example of a boundary- what is "me" and what isn't for me.

I don't think it's being closed minded. I don't look to judge other people for what works for them. I just know for myself, open marriage, poly, is a "no". It can be a "no" for you too, for whatever reasons you want it to be. I think many people have the same value.

I think pwBPD in general have a poor sense of self and poor boundaries and so may be more influenced by different ideas. They may think an open marriage or poly relationship is a good idea but what they think it is and the reality of it could be different.

I'm not excusing what your wife wants to do or condoning it. I would not want to be in your situation. However, I also think if someone wants to cheat, that is their action, not something we control. Our task would be how we deal with that if it happens.

One possible scenario is that this budding romance isn't what your wife believes it is. Sometimes it's the "forbidden fruit" that has appeal and you saying something like "ok what time will you come back" removes all of that. Your aren't giving her permission, or condoning her choice when you say that, you are just resigned to the fact that she's going to do what she chooses and choosing to not have a useless circular discussion over it.

What I have seen with BPD mother is that if someone is painted white, they also can be painted black. Your wife may go out one time, then change her mind or even come home early. Who knows. IMHO, I wouldn't even ask about how it went or discuss it. Just stay the course with your values.

I 100% completely agree.  My advice there wasn't to suggest that you should be unfaithful (although, ironically, that was the question).  Instead, it's a subtle way to give your wife a dose of her own medicine to see if her opinions on an open marriage stay the same.

I also agree with Wendy that it's solely my moral opinion and might not be anyone else's.

Sure, that's valid.  I just didn't know how I could share my viewpoint without prefacing it that my faith is what guides me.  I think it's an equally true standard for most non-religious homes as well- marriage is between two people and that commitment should mean something.

pwBPD can be very good at co-opting political and social issues and verbiage, as well as popular wisdom and sayings to justify their own actions and selfishness. 

You have to ignore this, and fight through attempts by the pwBPD to use them to warp your own values and relationship; you have to have some fortitude and stay firm.  It's easier to stay balanced then, and not get swayed by some of this nonsense.

For example, "I'm reading this book and it says open relationships are totally normal."

You "Maybe they are, and I'm not judging anyone who's in them, but it's not something I want for us or something I'm comfortable with." 

...And at this point, you'd be well within reason to end the discussion; no need to justify your position.  Closed relationships are also totally normal!  Did you enter into marriage with the stipulation that she was allowed to have lovers on the side?  It doesn't sound like it from your posts, e.g. her saying that her bisexuality was in her past.  So why even entertain this when it goes against your values? 

Like everything else in their lives, I think pwBPD's political and social views are very shallow and always self-serving.  In my experience, BPDxw was (according to her) "very feministic" ...  but of course, only when it suited her.  She preferred to work with men and if it came down to hiring a woman or a man for something, she'd always hire the male or prefer to work with the male because according to her, she could manipulate men better than women.  When I had interactions with people she worked with, she was always cold to the other women and had a bunch of excuses why they didn't like her and why she couldn't stand them. 

And it was wrong for men to cheat... except when she learned an acquaintance she was feuding with was cheated on, in which case, I remember her defending the cheater and claiming the woman deserved it. 

And so on for everything else in her life... religion, politics, etc.  She was never consistent in any of this, and it's really a hodge-podge of left/right issues with no consistent ethic, and no moral compass guiding her, other than "how could this benefit me right now?"


Be careful here... I would not sleep on this issue.  Figure out more about this person and what their goals are.  You have kids together!  What kind of drama could this expose them to?  Your wife's "needs" - I put that in quotes, because wanting to have an affair is not a need - come in second to them. 

I also remember the phrase "All couples fight" being thrown in my face whenever I said we were fighting too much and I didn't like it, and it wasn't healthy for our relationship or our daughter. 

I'd agonize over mentally wondering "how much was normal" or whether other couples fought like we did, and as often as we did.  It didn't seem like it to me.  And I'd question my judgment and motivation.  But the bottom line was I was uncomfortable with it, and that was what mattered.  It was too much for me, and I was communicating that to my partner and instead of being heard and communicating back, she was looking for ways to shut me up and justify her own behavior. 

Not all couples fight!  Some can have disagreements and make up quickly or agree to disagree without fighting.  Fighting is stupid.  Fighting shows two people can't communicate honestly with eachother and respect eachother as an individual. 

But you know, you hear these things, and you see the tropes in TV shows and you're susceptible to this nonsense from a manipulative person being used like that.   

Yes, my BPD mother would say this too. "All families fight", as if what we saw going on at home was normal.

This behavior wasn't typical or normal.

maxsterling ,

If your wife has no moral compass like PeteWitsend described, then that's big trouble. But hopefully she does have some?

If she were putting me in an uncomfortable position, I would perhaps play around with her by flipping the situation. First, I would pretend to be assuming to be gay and immediately "confess" that I had an online affair with another man. A few days later, I would ask her if it would be ok to meet this person. Just to see her reaction. I'm guessing she would say no and then would propose ending her own affair. But for this to work, you would need to do it very well. Perhaps really go into a gay dating site and really talk to another gay man, but of course tell them the truth. I believe they are likely to keep talking to you even knowing the truth. With that you would be able to show some part of that conversation to her. If my wife said yes, then I would actually go out and pretend to be doing stuff with someone else. That would give her some perspective on what she is doing with you.

I have used the same logic in the past, and I can say that it just works. It looks like revenge, but it's not. The goal is just to make them step into your shoes for a while.

For instance, in 2024, while I was asking my wife to leave, she entered a dating site and started to talk to other men. I think she was just doing it to provoke me and make me want her back, but it was unacceptable because she was still under my roof. We ended up reconciling, but I didn't leave that in the past because every time we talk about it, she becomes hostile and defensive. That tells me that her attitude will be the same next time it suits her. She defends herself, stating that she was not flirting but just trying to get the opinion of other men about my behavior. And until recently she still sustained a lie that one of the guys she was talking to was not from the internet and that he was gay.

So recently she asked to check my phone. She was leaving our house the next day, so I allowed it. Suddenly she struck upon the messages of a woman, and at a given point I noticed it was looking like an affair to her, because this woman was telling me where she was for me to meet her. So I quickly removed my phone from her hands and ended her checking, as if I was really having an affair. Her facial semblance immediately changed. She became desperate and confessed to her past lies. I only explained the situation to her the next day. That woman was an old woman from whom I bought popsicles for the kids (the cheap homemade ones). For a moment, she felt how bad it is when your partner has "secret conversations."

Pete -

Yes, that is a very big point of caution.  I guess she has an RV as her “home, but the RV is broken and has no a/c. I don’t understand why a person with a regular well paying job would choose to not rent an apartment.  Where does her money go? W didn’t pry, but did mention something about her being married to a woman and getting divorced, and that divorce is expensive.  Again, a red flag here.  The striking thing is that if I had those qualities it would be a turn off for my W.  Considering the number of times she has shamed me for being a slob (I’m no worse than the average person, and definitely no worse than W), the number of times she complained about the size of our house, the number of times she complained about me not making enough money, I find this a little suspect.

Honestly, my gut is telling me no matter what the progression is here, it will end very badly and my goal is to protect me and the kids from damaging drama.

very good advice and observations in this thread from Wendy and Pete.

Adding my own experience with my uBPDw. When I heard her suggest "open relationship" for the first time I was in shock, and left wondering what went so wrong in our two decade plus marriage. The reason she gave for this suggestion was that she did not feel fulfilled and wanted freedom to explore. Little did I know that she had already crossed the monogamy boundary and was secretly having an affair when she said this.

So the "suggestion" was not really an "ask", rather it was her way of "hinting" to me that she is already acting in a manner of treating our relationship as open.

It took me several months to put this in context, as the affair was hidden for a long time. Anything important in our relationship has always been conveyed in "hints" never in direct talk.

sorry hit send early meant to say NotWendy, PeteWitsend, and SuperDaddy

There is no way to completely protect yourself and especially #1 priority the kids.  That is why so many, after trying so many options and strategies, finally conclude that it is the dysfunctional relationship at the core of everything.  You can't fix the other.  You can't consistently reason with the other's inconsistent moods, feeling and perceptions.

I really tried but failed to hold the marriage together.  That's why I accepted that divorce was the only alternative left for me.  (Even before we separated, when our child was a preschooler, my spouse was threatening to zero my parenting by disappearing with our toddler.)  Not only was I being disparaged and disrespected, I was no longer seen as having any authority.  So I turned to family court which, strangely enough is The Authority in today's society.  It's not optimal and is often far too passive in the face of obvious obstruction and sabotage, but it does limit the damage in many ways.

I was able to establish my own home, a calm and stable one versus the endless conflict and discord of a joint home environment, where my child could experience the contrast between my home and the ex's home, the contrast of my norms versus her, the contrast of normalcy versus whatever happened at the ex's home.  Yes, mine wasn't a perfect example, but it was far better than before.  And it set a limit to the chaos and mayhem.  All for our child to learn from and guide his future decisions.

Foreverdad - 

I get the feeling one of these days I will be asking you for exit strategies.  If I had an easy exit strategy, I would have taken it by now.  I’m well aware that W’s dysfunction is at the core of everything, and the best I can hope for is to manage what I can.

A not so small part of me hoped W would cheat with someone who actually has a place she could stay at.  Right now she is 100% dependent on me, incapable of holding a job or managing basic life tasks such as eating.  I’ve thought about just renting another place somewhere and agreeing to pay the rent for a period of time.  Really hard to make a change without her having some other place to go.  She has no friends or family to stay with. 

Frankly, I didn't think, "This is my exit strategy."  While I didn't blunder into it, I'd describe it was all the other options were taken away from me.

Yes, I did record myself so I could try to make a defense, "I recorded to document I wasn't the one making aggressive threats.  If the other was recorded behaving aggressively, that's not my fault."  Strangely, the system didn't care much about that.  My conclusion was that we were seen as bickering and the court assumed that it would decrease after the divorce.  Well, it didn't.  But at least I was able to unwind the marriage and financial connections, leaving only the parenting to continue.

Yes, that's a hard situation. Do you live in a rented place? I do, and this is an advantage. With that I could convince my wife to leave. She agreed because I was about to leave and end the renting contract, so she would have to leave anyway. But she has her mom's house and a few other close parents.

I was here thinking, what would I do if she didn't have any place to go and I wanted to part ways? I'd probably rent the cheapest possible place for her, and from there I'd let her figure it out. And I mean real cheap, such as just a bed in a shared girls' hostel room or a small place in the slums.

It's hard to understand how your W would really not have anyone to count on. I mean, in a live-or-death situation, I'm imagining some parent would help her out, or an old friend?

Anyway, in your particular case, if your place is rented, then you can just leave and end the contract, leaving her to move into the RV with her other woman. Remember, she is an adult.

Sorry if this sounds too harsh, but it's important to know your options.

Your wife may be seeking something different in this relationship.

We tend to form relationships with people we meet in our own circle, so it would make sense that my BPD mother would marry someone who was similar to her family members who had stable jobs.

Also, if we want a family, we'd want to be married to someone with similar goals, and capacity to provide and care for them- whether that is by traditional roles or shared ones. Your wife isn't seeking a husband and father- she has you.

In terms of having a poor self image, BPD mother would look to others for her own self image. Having a husband who provided for her helped her to feel valued. She, herself didn't have a lot of accomplishments but being married to someone who had a good job contributed to her self esteem.

BPD mother did not work outside the home. Yet, when a sibling had difficulty with employment and worked a lower paying job, she was very critical of that. I think this could be a reason why your wife is critical of your income, the house. She doesn't think she's enough, so from her own thinking, you aren't either. But this is a reflection of her thinking, not you.

With other people, like female friends, BPD mother tended to seek out people who had less than her. It didn't start out that way. Prior to the "women's movemement" she was similar to her peers who didn't work outside the home, but after that, as women entered the workplace and she didn't- maybe it was harder for her to feel good about herself around women who had careers. Perhaps she chose people who she didn't feel would be challenging to her own self image.

This may be why your wife has chosen someone whose circumstances are less than hers. It's hard to know what is going on. I assume this person put "working in medicine" on the dating website, but not all medical related jobs are high paying. It's also possible she fell on hard times with the divorce. Why she's in this situation is anyone's guess.

I really don’t think this is a good idea. If your partner has bpd and you can convince them of something like this, you open yourself up to all sorts of situations that will run through their heads and they will convince themselves that everything that is going on in their head is fact. You then are faced with the consequence of trying to convince them it was all an elaborate plan to try and get them to change their own view point and they just simply won’t believe you. And it will get dragged up in every argument from that moment until eternity.

We spend our lives treading on eggshells trying not to make one wrong move to stop them becoming dysregulated, why on earth would you manufacture a situation that could, or probably would, be unrecoverable from.

I doubt it would make much difference to the disordered person anyway. For example, I asked my ex how she would feel if the shoe was on the other foot and I was a drug addict that ran off with my drug dealer, would she not fight for the relationship and try and show me how my decision was a bad one. She did agree to some extent but made no difference. In one heated exchange I commented that maybe I should go and f*** a few of her friends before running off with one, which is exactly what she has done, only for her to call me a sick twisted b*stard.

I’m afraid with a pwBPD you will never get them to see the double standards at play.

I understand this situation. I didn't see the whole of it initially. I also wondered why my father didn't divorce her, why he put up with her behavior. I would not have blamed him if he had divorced her.

I didn't see how dependent and low capacity she was as she mostly leaned on him and also she was very invested in keeping up the image of competence. Her behavior was a family secret. I don't blame her- it would have felt shameful to her if anyone truly knew the whole of it. 

Rather than seem appreciative, being dependent also felt shameful to her, and she resented that, and so, doing things for her- which she needed, also enhanced her feeling of incompetence, and at times she'd project that and react to it.

In her later years, I could see just how impaired she was with her BPD. She truly could not function on her own in any capacity. While having boundaries was necessary, how much to disconnect posed a moral dilemma. Even if we have every right to walk away from an abusive situation, how does one leave a completely dependent person who can not function to fend for themselves?

Yet, like the bridge story, we also don't have to go over the edge with them either. Where's the balance? 

I don't have an answer. These are complicated situations and different for everyone. I don't think there's one right or one wrong way. It would be easier to leave if your wife found someone else to stay with- that way, you'd know she'd not be on her own. So far, that isn't happening. Maybe one day, divorce would be a choice for you, maybe not. For now the issue is the one at hand- her wanting to meet up with a woman and what happens with that.

What you tried is completely different from what I suggested. You just brought a hypothetical situation to the conversation, which doesn't work at all. And then you made kind of a threat, which just fills into the drama and has a detrimental effect.

What I said is to just let her fall into the trap of believing for a while that you are actually doing the thing. I have done this a few times in different relationships and circumstances, and it has always worked in making them regret their past actions. In my experience, it works perfectly in making them drop the double standards. They are much more sensible, so they learn fast from just "a fabricated sample" how it feels to be on the other side.

oh yeh I agree with you. What I said was completely wrong, triggering and definitely not the right way to go about things. But it highlights the lack of accountability and the double standards. But at the time I’d said those things I wasn’t even aware bpd was a thing.

The problem I have with your suggestion is the way the majority of bpd persons mind works. If you put one little seed in their mind something that can dysregulated them, it can end up like a runaway train. The scenarios that play out in their heads become their reality. I’m not sure how long your relationships have lasted, but from my own personal experience and many others on here, if you did something they perceived as a slight towards them 20 years ago, even though they got the complete wrong end of the stick, you’ve explained tirelessly that they misunderstood or misread the words/situation/look/sound you made, it doesn’t matter what you say or do their mind is made up, and that thing that happened 20 years ago, no matter how insignificant or misunderstood that thing was, it will be dragged up time and time again, and it is just another round of ammunition they have in their armour against you.
I completely get where you are coming from and the idea behind it, I just really do not think it is a good idea…… at all.

Another thought on your wife's dependency on you and shame.

Does your wife "mask" in social situations? My BPD mother had an entirely different persona in public. Charming, intelligent, seemingly competent. Nobody would have had a clue.

I felt envious that other people got the "good side" of her, but then I realized it was the mask that hid the parts of her that she felt shame about. It wasn't real. We got the real side of her, as difficult as it was sometimes.

She had become friends with a woman about my age. By then, I knew that if someone was in her circle, that wasn't my place, so I didn't have contact with this person. She needed to have a separate world than family, because, we saw the bigger picture. I contacted her when my mother passed away and she shared memories of the good times they had together.

One one hand, this was crushing. She and my mother did things together that I wished my mother could have done with me. On the other hand, I knew she couldn't, because, I knew her in a different context. With this person, BPD mother could present the part of her she chose to let her see.

I think this is what your wife is seeking. She is completely dependent on you and knows she needs you, but that also triggers her shame and she feels resentful. You've seen the larger picture. The good and the not so good. But that's all of her.

Your wife isn't seeking to replace you or find another husband. It's actually because she has you that she can be something different to someone else. It also might appear that my BPD mother had found a "replacement daughter" but she wasn't seeking what she already had. This was a relationship that met an emotional need for her.

On this dating site, your wife can be whoever she chooses other people to see. There's no history with this woman, so there's no shame. At least not yet. If this woman has less materially than she does, she doesn't feel less than her. She may even feel superior to her. This person is showing her attraction, admiration.

Your wife needs you but this triggers her shame. She doesn't "need" this other woman. She can reinvent herself with her. While you might feel jealousy, that this woman is getting the "good side"- what she's getting isn't real, even if it appears that way to you. It may meet some need of your wife but it can't give her real love because the woman isn't getting the "real her". How long this lasts, one can't tell. But you're the real person to her and at some level your wife knows that, even if it shame triggers her.

Wendy, If we did not have small kids I would probably say this isn’t working out and that both of us would be better with our own space, and then help her find a place if she wanted.  More than likely, she would move with friends or family out of state.  This has nothing to do wit my feelings towards her, it’s more about recognizing the need to move on being in both of our best interests.

But the kids keep her here, as I would not agree to her leaving the state with the kids.  And she does have a role as a mother, however dysfunctional at times.  A 50/50 parenting time would be ideal if it could be maintained.  That will certainly take effort from me to ensure the kids are provided for when they are not with me.  Kids with me 100% of the time would be emotionally difficult on them.  I know there are other arrangements, but these all present similar problems.

Either way, if she wants to be with women or does not want to have a monogamous marriage, I can’t do anything about those desires.  Neither would work for me given the already stressful nature of this r/s.  If it came down to it, I would say that we have to find a way to separate.

Superdaddy -  

I understand what you are saying.  In my case, my W is cerebral enough and had enough therapy in her life to know the problems she is creating are her own.  That doesn’t stop her from projecting, but if I were to “play along” for awhile in hopes she would realize the problems she is creating, it would serve no end because deep down she already knows she is the source.

I noticed, and your later comment about having a public mask made me think of this, that BPDxw would often adopt this really fake persona sometimes.  Like... "1960's Sitcom Housewife" and parrot little folksy sayings and colloquialisms that would get on my nerves, knowing how awful she was behind the scenes. 

The bizarre part was she was not born here and came over here later in life, so I don't know where she picked this up, but I figure the instinct to "mask" or fake it and adopt the persona of having it all together must've been strong in her for some reason.  But she was painfully insecure in ways I probably didn't even understand and could not relate to.  I mean, sure there were times in my life I was not who I wanted to be, and it sucked, but I feel like as an adult, you move past that... you don't let some incident when you were 14 influence how you behave for the rest of your life!


This is a good point, and I agree with this.  Their actual needs aren't often communicated clearly (perhaps because they would reveal too much about the pwBPD) so they go about trying to get those needs met in ways that seem illogical or inconsistent with the things they tell the non-disordered people in their lives.

It's a good response to this inconsistency max mentioned:

I learned you have to read between the lines with a pwBPD a lot of the time.  They'll tell you they want vanilla, then get mad when you bring them vanilla and ask where the chocolate is.  and you have to realize what's really going on is the "bottomless pit" talking... they just need you to be paying attention or waiting on them, or they get insecure and then lash out in their usual way.  Or they decide someone else waiting on them is what they want at that moment, and so they seek out some other contact.  Who knows?  The bottomless pit decided they needed more attention than you could provide maybe?  They'll never tell you directly, and it's up to you to be the adult and draw the line.  And if they don't heed that, then you decide how you'll handle it.   

I doubt her pursuit of this idea- being with a woman- is going to pan out to become much of anything. She has too much at stake, and she knows it. I could be wrong but a lot of what my BPD mother said she was going to do didn't.

I don't recall the ages of your children, but I recall how my family court and even my Custody Evaluator viewed parenting schedules.  For children up to preteen years both advocated equal time for co-parenting.

Because our child exchanges were places for my ex to play games posing as the aggrieved mother, I wanted exchanges as far apart as possible.  With equal time being discussed and the schedules designed across two weeks, I favored alternating weeks.  My CE, a child psychologist, corrected me.  He said a better schedule for children until at least 10 years old was two exchanges per week and described the 2-2-3 schedule (or 2-2-5-5 across two weeks).  One parent would get Mon-Tue overnights, the other Wed-Thu overnights and they would alternate Fri-Sat-Sun overnights.  I decided the second half of the week would be best for me since then I could review my child's school assignments and be sure they were done each week.

And my lawyer agreed, he asked me whether I wanted the court to think I felt my child didn't need more frequent time with me.  Um, not that!  As it turned out, even when I got majority time during the school year at age 12, we continued with 2-2-3 during summers until he was finished school and aged out of the system.

I also advocate for the children to have access to school counselors.  My son had regular counseling sessions until he was 12, starting at age 3 with play therapy.

One more thought: given your statements indicating you're contemplating an end to this marriage, you should absolutely be preserving evidence of these conversations, especially if they're in emails or texts, or some format that could corroborate what's being said.  If these conversations are all verbal, try to record some of them and save the recordings.  If not, at least write down the dates they occurred and who said what. 

If it comes down to it, and you or she files for divorce, it sounds like she'll fight for custody.  It's a bit of a red flag she made the comment about 50/50 custody.  It could very well show she's been thinking about this already. 

In my state, if you're at 50/50, I don't think either party is liable to pay the other party child support.  Sounds like she knows that.  A judge could still order it, but it's not automatic.  Also in my state, the non-custodial parent (i.e. the parent with less than 50% parenting time) gets a default possession schedule that amounts to around 35% of the time, sometimes more, depending on how holidays and school breaks go.  So if you're not going to be the primary custodial parent, you'll have to fight for 50/50, and - barring clear evidence one parent is not fit - that's a he said/she said, subjective fight.  However, the fact that your wife is willing to blow up the marriage to go have an affair with some other woman is a pretty strong weight in your favor. 

If this is against your values and you are not okay with it, absolutely do not allow it.  And keep a record of it. 

If you are already consenting for her to have a side piece and go on dates, you're going to have a much harder time in court. 

It sounds like from your first post you agreed she could go meet with this person more as a friend, and there wasn't a romantic interest there, but then she blindsided you with the request to have an open marriage.  I think you need to make clear - ideally in writing - that you're not okay with this, you misunderstood what she was looking for, you're not okay with an open relationship, and not consenting to it. 

Pete - a valid concern, but in my case I am not too worried about this.  My W can’t hold it together under any kind of stress, especially to any authority.  She also would be afraid to ask for more than 50/50 because she knows that if she did it would put her life under a lens to which she finds risky considering her history of mental hospitals, unemployment, and unstable relationships.

In fact, she cites this as a way I “control” her.  In her mind, me saying that I would want 50/50 custody forces her to remain in the marriage because she can’t accept anything less than 100% and that if she challenges she knows she will lose because the court is “sexist”.  She then claims her only solutions is to “kill herself”.

My hope would be to find a way for her to be okay with 50/50 until the raw emotions fade and reality kicks in.  After that, things either remain that way or have worked themselves out naturally.  I have zero worries that a court would find a way to give me less than 50% parenting time.

While your spouse is certainly different than my ex, BPD exists across a broad spectrum, let me explain something I had noticed in my case over the years...

I had been married over a decade and watched my hard working spouse gradually display more and more poor behaviors, more of the behaviors that fit the Borderline traits.  Little did I realize it, but when I came up with the idea for her to feel better with a child, it made our marriage worse.  As I look back, she unconsciously perceived me morph from a husband to a father, triggering her childhood FOO of an abuser stepfather and a complicit mother.  Our marriage imploded before our child was 4 years old.

As I stated above, she was hard working all those years.  But she stopped working and became a SAHM once she was a mother.  Home life became filled with her arguments, rants and rages like never before.  In the final months she was moaning and groaning so much, slamming doors and locking herself in with our child at night.  Never could I ever imagine she could dig herself out.

Then we separated.  Suddenly, she morphed again.  I never heard her moaning and groaning again.  It's been two decades and she went back to work and has supported herself over the years.  Yes, there was short term spousal support and child support that helped her until I was awarded majority time, but apparently her financial life worked out.  She's still what I consider somewhat dysfunctional in relationships but otherwise she is functional enough to get things done in her life.

Might your spouse be of that sort, where she might do better post-marriage than she leads you to expect?  Could the support you've provided for years be allowing her to let herself remain financially unproductive and claiming to be helpless and dependent?

Maybe she can't take care of herself.  That might be so.  But isn't it possible she can take better care of herself if/when she has to?  Just a thought.

Well, i certainly hope so.  But - she is 50 and the longest she has held onto any job - any - is maybe 2 years.  She was given permanent SSDI disability before she turned 30 - and that is jot easy to get.  So someone at some point before the age of 30 determined that she was unlikely to be able to support herself financially - ever.  Could she maintain an income without me?  I don’t  know, but her history says no.

I also wondered how much of my BPD mother's seemingly inability to manage on her own was affected by my father's enabling her, but I also didn't realize the extent of her impairment from BPD.

That she would not be able to hold a salaried job wasn't as obvious in her younger years because it wasn't expected of women at the time . I think in current times, she would have qualified for SSDI disability but also I think that  would have caused her shame.

While child custody was a likely concern for my father if he considered divorce, I also think her inability to manage on her own was a significant one too. She could have appeared competent in court, and gotten custody, but she wouldn't have been able to manage that.

I mention this because, while divorce is a consideration, the extent of your wife's impairment is an additional concern. It is like the bridge story- how to not go over yourself but also how to let go. I think that your wife is receiving SSDI is a significant step, but I think looking into what supports and services are available to her could be part of the legal inquiry of what to do if you do pursue divorce.

I also think at some level, your wife is aware of her struggles, even if she doesn't directly admit it. This is why I don't think she's going to jeopardize her marriage, and that her inquiry into open marriage is more imaginary than action. BPD mother often would back out of social plans at the last minute. My best guess is that your wife might agree to meet this person, maybe even get there but at some point back out. Possibly blame you- the "controlling husband" for it.

I also thought my mother was doing surprisingly well and better than we expected after my father passed away, so I assumed that her helplessness was partially a consequence of enabling. It was an illusion. We just didn't know until it became obvious.

I wouldn't blame anyone for choosing to not be in a damaging relationship if that is the overall best decision. That Max's wife qualifies for SSDI and has documented psychiatric history could be in his favor for custody, it does add another complication to the decision to divorce.

We talked last night.  Difficult conversation for me to initiate because with W’s combative mood the past few weeks, my instinct is to avoid communication for fear of what it has been turning into. And I don’t want to have the role of “therapist” either.  She seemed like she wanted to talk and I did a good job of keeping the conversation productive.

I asked about this other woman, and asked if that if we were to have an open relationship was this the type of woman she wanted.  I asked if she was looking for a girlfriend or Just sex with a woman on the side.  That helped her open up some, and I learned this is probably is coming from a place of trauma and that she has never been able to have stable long term relationships or friendships because of an inability to control sexual urges and maintain boundaries.  after reading a book on poly relationships (suggested by the other woman), she felt validation that monogamy is not right for everyone.

After talking with her last night, she revealed that the current behavior and the behavior from her past is not about seeking pleasure or because monogamy is not what she wants.  It’s basically the push-pull of BPD.  I think most emotionally healthy people engage in sexual activity as an extension of emotional closeness.  What W described is that for her, sexual activity is to fill a void or to force an emotional closeness or satisfy a curiosity.  This current desire is probably rooted in loneliness and changes due to aging.  Healthy people can satisfy those urges through platonic friendships or hobbies or social groups. It seems that for W for her whole life that she tries to satisfy those feelings of loneliness through sex and knows no other way.  It sounds to me this is about wanting to feel emotional closeness outside marriage (as we all need) but not being able to separate sexual desire from the desire for emotiknal closeness. 

 
So what does she actually want?

And does giving you a reason for her inability to have her needs met through platonic friendships make meeting up with women for sex OK with you?

What's she going to do about this.

The BPDs in my life all work, and they all pay their own bills today.  That wasn't true before because someone was enabling them to be co-dependent.  What starts at "help" eventually becomes an entitlement that they can't live without because it's expected.

I remember my BPD daughter in particular, I paid her car insurance until she was 24 because she always blew through her paychecks.  I finally had to cancel it due to my own money struggles, and she had auto insurance within an hour.  And I thought, "Huh.  I've been asking her to do this for six years...and she does it within an hour once I had no other choice.  Is that her fault or mine?"

Of course it was my fault, LOL.

I said all of that to say, your wife may not seem like she can work and support herself.  Today, maybe she can't.  But once her life changes, you'd be amazed what she will do when she has no other choice.  Or maybe she goes a different route and reconnects to family or old friends.  Either way though, she will figure it out on her own once the decisions are no longer in your hands.

Wendy -

She says she wants happiness and joy and fulfilling relationships.  In BPD language, she wants to feel engulfed for awhile.

Doesn’t change my opinion, because her “searching” is self destructive, no different than if she was drug-seeking.  We did talk about that a little, and she recognizes what she is doing, admitting that she sees some major red flags with this woman, and that even if I was okay with her having an extra marital relation, it would not bring her joy.

One thing clear to me - this is something I can’t fix and won’t ever go away, no matter how much she is aware her behavior is self destructive.

All married people need outside lives and relationships to be happy.  It’s just that people like me have hobbies and no issues making and keeping friends.  Apparently, that is beyond W’s skill set.

You are correct- this kind of behavior comes from their feelings of emptiness and their attempts to fill it though drugs, spending, sex- whatever gives them a sense of relief in the moment, but you also know that none of these fill that emptiness for long. It's difficult for someone with BPD and also their spouse.

Hopefully you can manage some self care in this situation.

But remember...this is the "bottomless pit" talking.  She says she wants a polyamorous/ENM/whatever relationship, but is she going to be happy, as you or I would understand that to mean? 

you KNOW the answer is no.  So what's next?  Then you get entangled in this extended relationship, or other people get dragged in, because she's looking to fill a void in herself, not just make herself happy.  There is not actually one thing she wants.

Whether you try to navigate this or not, or draw a line, is up to you.  Just understand what you're opening the door to.

In response to all the discussion about whether wife with BPD will be able to work, I have some questions. Many years ago, the US federal government placed a five year lifetime limit on receiving welfare benefits. The state of California started mandatory Dialectal Behavior Therapy (DBT) for long time recipients many of whom supposedly had BPD. I am wondering if anybody knows anything about the results, if a significant number of the recipients unable to work actually ended up working and what percent of those likely had BPD. I once knew a therapist who worked in this program and she was completely burned out from all the suicide threats/attempts. It seems that the discussion here is leaning towards saying that in some cases if the person with BPD has to work, that he/she might eventually be able to work. Members on this site have often asked if they should try to get DBT for the person in their life with BPD. I have heard that DBT is mostly successful with the most severely impaired people with BPD, those who have made multiple suicide threats/attempts. Of course, getting a person with BPD to do DBT when it is not mandated is likely one of the biggest challenges including the availability and costs.

Pete -  we did discuss this a little last night - that an extramarital relationship not only involves her, but also me and the kids.  The desire to have another long term partner is completely different than the desire for sexual curiosity and pleasure.  The latter creates unstable situations for me and the kids and is purely selfish.  That’s why I asked her point blank if she viewed this other woman as another potential long term partner or as someone to satisfy a curiosity or craving.  She knows the types of relationships she had before me would be destructive to me and to the kids. Her struggle is to contain an obsession.

Truthfully, her answer doesn't necessarily matter because it will either be dishonest (it's just a one-time thing) or a delusion (this is what I need to make me happy).  For BPDs, their happiness comes from their emotions at any given moment, so it can shift as frequently as the wind.

If you give in here and she pursues her desires, what happens when that relationship is not enough?  Where's the limit?  Three partners?  Five?  Ten?

It will never be enough because the problem is mental illness.  This is like having a broken arm and taking a Tylenol...while expecting the arm to be all better in the morning.  It just doesn't work that way.

It's 100% your decision on how to proceed and I'm not trying to steer you either way.  I just had to point out the obvious here, that the mentally ill acting on sexual impulsions outside the home does not lead to a long-term happy marriage.

Exactly.  Right now it seems her desire is to be able to fool around and explore as she pleases but still maintain the stability of marriage.  There is absolutely no way that could ever work for me.  The only situation where I would ever consider an open marriage is if the third person had something I could not provide (a woman, in this case) AND was a stable relationship.  Given that my W's most stable relationship in her whole life has been me (by a very long shot) and our relationship is not very stable, there is ZERO chance she could have a stable relationship with another unless she had breakthrough success with therapy.  But such breakthrough success would mean she is in control of her emotions, and thus her desire to be with others would be controllable.  So really, there is ZERO chance any kind of an open relationship within this marriage can work for me.   As much as I try to keep an open mind about things, this is a boundary I cannot cross. 

I guarantee to almost certainty that if she were to enter a physical relationship with this woman, drama would ensue almost immediately, that drama would then be projected to me and the kids, and somehow I would be blamed for her extra marital affair falling apart. 

My current question for myself is do I state that boundary directly now, or trust that she understands my boundary already and simply take action when/if it is crossed?  In a healthy relationship, I think an extra marital affair is a boundary that does not have to be stated.

So, Max, assuming she is only looking for a fling, not a long term partner, and she may do this no matter what you say- how will you handle this?

Remember - this is about you, not her.

I don't get the sense you'd leave her, considering her condition and the impact it would have on your family right now.

Sounds like in her own thinking, monogamy means long term comitment. That's with you. Somehow she is thinking that does not exclude flings.

I think she also means monogamy for you. After all, you are the one who can make platonic friends, but she "just can't". Note- her "explanation" is from victim perspective. It's her trauma, it's that she can't make friends, she's lonely, she's getting older--- it's not her fault. It also sounds like you buy into this too- it isn't her fault she's like this. In her mind she needs this to feel better.

I have heard a lot of justifications from BPD mother for her behavior. "It's because of the (emotional) pain" "it's because of something in the past and when she's obsessed with something she believes she needs, she's determined to do it. She could come up with justifications for wanting to do something self destructive or hurtful that somehow made this not her fault.

Natural consequences may be the only lesson here. Your wife has difficulty with all relationships, and so even the "flings" would be complicated. This other woman sounds like she has her own issues. I don't condone adultery, but if your wife is going to do it, I think it would become another disappointing attempt to fill her emotional needs.

You keep to your own standards for yourself, so your integrity is intact.

Remember boundaries are about you. Yes, say it so there's no assumptions on her part where you stand. It has to be a firm boundary. Fuzzy ones don't work. You can't say "no adultery unless ....". You have to be firm about your boundary for yourself. It has to be a firm no for you. 

Also don't make statements about consequences you can't keep. Something like "if you do this, the marriage is over". I don't think you are at this point yet.

I stated this in earlier posts.  State the boundary in "I" terms, and make it concise and direct. "Monogamy is a firm value for me in a marriage. I do not agree with having an open marriage. I also know I can not control your actions" Then you stop the discussion. There's nothing else to say at this point.

Hi Rowdy ,


I see your point, that whatever drama you add to the life of pwBPD, they will stick to it through life and keep talking about it, right? Well, that's not precise.

When they bring up stuff, this is an unconscious attempt to reproduce it and feel themselves in a threatening situation again, but while they do it, they try to avoid the consequences. For instance, the suicide "attempts" are not actually intended to kill. Yes, among all BPD patients that attempt suicide, 10% of them actually die, but this is almost always an accident. A person who actually wants to die doesn't tell anybody about it and rarely fails.

In this (https://youtu.be/r7bkpqb_FXA) video, you can see an example of a girl who tried uncountable suicide attempts until she threw herself in front of a train, and then ... well, she lost a leg but didn't die. A real suicide is not done in this dramatic fashion, and whatever is done targets the head, not the legs.

So, how does this translate to a relationship? The rule is simple: they only go for behaviors in which they don't care about the consequences, or they feel like they have some control over the consequences and can avoid the worst.

If you have a secret affair and she knows it's just for extra adventure, then she will haunt you on that and keep bringing this up for years later. But when there is a clear risk of you leaving her for this other woman, then she will behave like a princess to try to keep you close.

Similarly, if you pretend that you are interested in someone else and you are open about it, and she feels truly threatened by it and feels like any drama would push you further away, then she will make her best effort to please you and make you want to stay.

Then in the future she won't want to create drama over it, because she will be afraid that it could happen again (even knowing that it was fake). Maybe if she feels really safe to talk about it, she may bring it up, maybe when drunk, but not with an aggressive attitude, but just opening up like a normal person does.

All of what I said is confirmed by my 25+ years of experience with 4 different disordered partners, in which BPD was the issue most of the time.

So yes, I think faking a gay affair would have a positive effect on the relationship, as long as she does think that it is real and legitimate. If she feels like it is just a way of pressuring her or taking revenge, then it will backfire.

That's a two-part question so I'll give a two-part answer, starting with the second part.

There's no way she understands your boundary or this wouldn't even be a conversation.  If she understood, she'd be doing this in secret or not doing it at all.  So she feels that there's nothing wrong with following her desires and you should accept her line of thinking.

Again, this comes back to feelings.  She feels like she needs this to work to make her feel whole, so it's a good thing that will make her happy.  If you don't agree, that makes you the enemy because you don't care about her happiness.  This is distorted thinking at its finest and where all the BPD problems come from.

For stating the boundary now, that's tougher to answer because of what I just said.  For her, this is about how she feels, what she thinks she needs.  If you say "Don't do this or else...", she's going to respond very badly and things will be considerably worse.  Then again, maybe that's inevitable, maybe there is no other option than to fight this out and see where it leads. 

My advice would be to get mental health involved somehow, whether it's family therapy or something similar.  Or, have this discussion with a neutral friend that your wife really has respect for.  That way, there's a chance that a real conversation can take place.

If you do decide to do this alone, make every statement about you.  For example, "I believe marriage is between two people and I would never look for someone to replace you, even if it was just for sex.  I want us to be together, to raise our kids together, and this topic completely goes against my values.  It hurts me to think about it because doing this could destroy our marriage."

Something like that, tying into your feelings without judging hers.  It's a slippery slope and it won't go well no matter what.  But if you feel it has to be said, then it should be said one way or another.  If you're worried that she won't let you talk, you could always do it in a letter as well.

Hi maxsterling,

I would advise you to state your boundary firmly in an email - that way you have a proof. And you also get to say everyting you want without circular argument interruprions. You could also write in your email that you could talk about it at set time later. Then you could also record this conversation. Just stay calm and state your boundary firmly again.

Good luck!

If she decides to have a "fling" my response would be something like:

"It's clear now this marriage will no longer work for me and I think we need to find a way of separating so that we can both pursue relationships that are more in line with our desires."

She already knows where I stand on this.  And she already knows it will lead to a breakup. 

Not necessarily. Back in 2008 I learned of my wife’s infidelity that had happened a few years earlier. We split up for a few months. During those few months I became close to someone. My wife and I got back together, but there were issues I had with trust, I even doubted the paternity of my youngest child. The feelings I had developed for this other person that was there for me through the breakup escalated, but I eventually got over them. My wife was aware of this, but it actually helped me get over my wife’s infidelity because I realised we are all fallible and can make mistakes.

Do you think knowing this stopped my wife from bringing it up in every argument we had for the next 15 years? No it didn’t. Do you think she used that as an excuse for how she discarded me 15 years later? Yes, of course she did.

I don’t know what exactly you have tried, but is it to the extreme of trying to convince your wife you are in a gay relationship? Because that is quite an extreme thing to do.

At best, the chances of it working are 50/50. My point being, why would you manufacture a situation that has a 50% chance of having the opposite effect desired, and the possibility to completely destroy the relationship through something fabricated out of desperation.

It's a reasonable statement if both people were in agreement and cooperating,  but this isn't the situation. I would make some suggestions but this is something to discuss with an attorney and therapist before saying something.

The "we" are going to do this- so we can both ....There's no "we" in this. If this happens, she doesn't want to end the marriage, she wants an open marriage. You don't. This may seem like a nicer way to make your point -but she's going to react to any statement suggesting the marriage is going to end.

Also, if you end the marriage, it isn't to find another relationship now. Maybe later at some point, but to say that, she's going to hear this from victim perspective. It's not something to talk about at the time.

If she goes through with a fling and you feel you can no longer stay married to her, your next step is to make a plan, find an attorney, get advice and a plan in place- for the main concerns- custody, her being on SSDI, where to stay, the rules about who stays in the family house ( so there's no abandonment issue), how infidelity is handled in your state divorce laws. This doesn't mean you just walk out and disappear or surprise her. At some point this needs to be discussed but there's going to be emotions and drama and it may be best to have this planned out.

Before you say something to her, you also need a safety plan in place for you and the kids, and also know how you would handle an extreme reaction. She may need to be hospitalized for her own safety if she threatens or attempts self harm, or becomes violent with you. You would also need to have your finances secured safely as she could clear out any joint accounts.

Get advice from an attorney and a therapist for when to speak to your wife about your plans and how. This would be an emotional discussion.

Whatever you do say, it's best in "I" terms, and to the point. You don't want to blame or shame her- she won't handle that. It's a straightforward "I can't remain in a marriage that isn't monogamous" type statement and then a statement of your plans (as advised by your attorney).

This is a delicate situation. Being "too nice" in a divorce may not be in your best interest but you are also dealing with a person who is mentally ill enough to have qualified for SSDI. She won't be able to jump into the workforce right away, (if ever), so this may involve having a plan for alimony, job training, possibly housing vouchers to partially cover rent (people on SSDI may qualify for other services). Social services may need to be consulted.The attorney can advise here. If she her reaction leads to her being hospitalized- this may be considered as part of the discharge plans.

My best guess is that your wife is more talk than action and she knows your boundary. It may be that she doesn't go through with her ideas, or backs out during the "date". The choice is in her court now, see what happens, but hold off on saying something about separating unless there's enough to warrant having plans made. Hopefully it won't come to that.

MC yesterday suggested that we are not emotionally ready to deal with R/S issues until we individually deal with our own personal traumas first.  This isn’t the first MC to mention this.  While it is said to the both of us, it’s pretty clear that this is directed at W.  Yesterday this happened after W went on a completely irrational blame fest that lasted 20 minutes.  To me, this is textbook BPD - w is feeling confined by marriage, feels shame over her urges, projects into me as an attempt to reduce shame.

Today W is upset at MC for suggesting we focus more on individual therapy.  I am puzzled by this, because just the night before she was telling me that she did not feel emotionally stable enough for any relationship.  I think she is feeling singled out by the MC, or maybe it is okay for her to have those thoughts but not for a T to tell her that.  But she totally mossed the point here.  W thinks I am “controlling her” like some kind of slave because I won’t let her date.  It’s like she thinks I am her father or something.  MC was trying to say she’s not mentally healthy enough to work on R/S issues, and that is true, whether it be a r/s with me or with someone else she wants to have a r/s with.  W pursuing new r/s  would be re-traumatizing herself with the same old pattern.

I feel like I am dealing with complete chaos right now - and there is no way to work with that constructively

A common observation by therapists is that marriage counseling can require individual therapy.  Sounds like an experienced MC.

Foreverdad - very experienced and highly rated.

What's the MC's proposed plan now? Is it to stop MC and for each of you to have your own individual therapy? Because it seems like what she's saying is that the two of you aren't ready to work with a MC, ie, it's not going to be effective at the moment.

An MC often works with couples in many different ways: 1) marriage therapy only  meeting with the couple for the full session. 2) marriage therapy meeting with the couple together and sometimes separately with a no secrets policy. 3) marriage therapy with the couple and individual therapy with another therapist/therapists for one or both spouses.

I think the MC is seeing this as a little bit of a unique situation - almost crisis-like. That was the vibe I got. 

She’d prefer if we met with our individual therapists more and then with her maybe once per month.  But, W expressed desire to find a new individual therapist and also spoke in very grim language, so MC floated the ida of helping W in that regard, but needing to examine policies and ethics. 

When I say “crisis” it is because W made completely hopeless sounding statements using words like “never” and “I might as well just die”.  There was no room for any outcome that would work in a positive direction.

What was the crisis about? Was it because your wife wants to date women and you aren't on board with that. Is her default to go to being hopeless- like if she can't do this then she may as well just be gone?

This is the kind of thinking and response my BPD mother would do to avoid moving forward with an alternate plan. Rather than agree to see her therapist, she'd throw another monkey wrench into the mix by saying "I need you to help me find one". Note- the perspective is victim.

These are tough situations because, sometimes the threat is manipulative and sometimes it's real. Hard to know what. In this case, she didn't appear to be serious about it. BPD mother would do that- it derails the conversation. There's no solution. She'd say things like she just is going to close her eyes and die. Another more absurd one was that she'd jump out the window, the one locked and high up window in her room at assisted living that there's no way anyone could climb up to or get out.

But the conversation goes nowhere after that. I think this is what the MC experienced. She can not help either of you in this situation.

Seems the current dispute is her wanting to date women. And if it's her focus, she's going to project her issues on to that as the solution, and by not giving in to that, you are keeping her from her (imagined) happiness.

My question for you is - what are you most worried about if she does that. (putting any morality reason aside- not that it's not important but to get to other concerns). Is it because you think it's going to hurt her by triggering trauma? Because- this is managing her consequences, and a possible outcome that may not happen. You don't need to manage her feelings, even if you fear she will bring that back home. The drama will be with the other person.

I think this is one reason why my father "looked the other way" at my mother's behavior. If he wasn't up to divorcing her, there really was no way to hold a boundary with her. I don't know if she ever cheated or not, but she basically did what she wanted to do, regardless of how anyone else felt about it. Trying to get her to understand how her behavior affected anyone else didn't seem to work.

As to MC, this is basically through talk. If your wife is not capable of having a reasonable discussion, and does this "derail" response, no MC can be effective.

Wendy, you nailed it.  I think the crisis is much deeper than simply not wanting to be monogamous.  I think is about feeling confined and restrained and overwhelming emotions that come from that.

My concern with her dating other women is that I, and the kids, are the ones to deal with the inevitable fallout.  The kids are old enough to he aware, and they are already deeply affected by W’s social dramas.  My other concern is triangulation and I see no escape from the drama triangle.  Right now, I am the persecutor in nearly all regards while the potential for an outside r/s is the rescuer..  When that other r/s falls apart, I (and the kids) become the rescuer. 

I understand the situation. However, I don't think your wife not getting her wish to date other people is going to spare you and the kids from triangulation or being put in rescuer position. I think this latest "crisis" is another example of how her mental illness affects her.

Just as my BPD mother would focus on the solution, once she got it, it would at best, provide only a temporary reprieve. However, any restrictions on her getting it would increase her emotional distress as she believed, in the moment, she had to have that solution.

I think I can understand why Dad just gave in. The more she was restricted from getting her "solution" the more her emotional distress increased.

This was a standoff. As her distress increased, so did her BPD behavior, she'd rage, trash the house, threaten to self harm. The more anyone dug their heels in, the more she escalated.

Reasoning with her, trying to talk to her didn't work because in the moment with her emotional distress so high, she couldn't reason. She just had to have what she thought she needed to have to ease it.

In the moment, the only way to stop this was to give in. She'd relax, almost instantly, and be very happy and relieved. Until the next crisis.

I don't know why your wife thinks you are stopping her. She could do it anyway. You certainly don't have to agree with it, or tell her it's OK. I don't suggest you do that. But you can stop circular discussions and talking about it.

This is tough. I understand this because I've experienced this pattern too with BPD mother.

I also am getting the sense that something is going on here.  Like it's pretty normal for pwBPD to cause chaos til their get their way, but usually "their way" isn't something that's an obvious dealbreaker for any relationship, like "I get to cheat, and you need to be okay with it."

But maybe this is typical BPD-behavior and it's just unfortunate that this time she fixated on a "greenlight to have an affair" as the "shiny object she needs in the moment," instead of other stuff they usually want, but then move on from in 5 seconds, like a more attention, a new hobby, clothes, a vacation, etc.  She has to realize though that pushing for the right to have an affair is really a dealbreaker. 

Is she okay with the kids knowing?  I might say that as well, and you're being honest here when you spell that all out, something like: "Look, it's not just me being "selfish" here and keeping you from what you want out of spite.  What are the kids going to think about you cavorting around with a lover?  I'm not going to lie to them and cover for you, and you're putting your wants ahead of any concerns for not just me but our family."

stay strong, man.

From a child's point of view, I think this is a valid concern- what will the kids' think? But if she was concerned about what the kids will think, she wouldn't consider it. Also, the concept of infidelity may not be relevant to the kids at their age. It's an adult situation and beyond a child's comprehension. Kids might learn a rated G version of the 10 Commandments but a simplified form. What their mother does with another partner- they aren't going to see it or hopefully not be told about it.

As a child and teen, what I thought about my BPD mother was formed through her behavior at home. What was confusing is that it was normalized. For kids, their home is their example of "normal". As an older child/teen I could see that my friends' mothers didn't act like that, but we kids didn't have a say about BPD mother's behavior.

A parent's relationship with a child is formed on how a parent relates to them, not what that parent does with anyone else. I don't know if BPD mother ever had an affair or not but that would not have made a difference to what we thought of her as kids, or teens, compared to our relationship with her.

Kids also learn from both parents. If you want your kids to learn about monogomy, then you would need to role model that for them. While you can't control your wife's choices, you can hold on to your own moral code. One possible reason she may want you to agree to an open marriage is that, if you do, and you do it yourself- then it may avoid shame for her, after all if what she's doing isn't OK, you doing it might make it OK. If you think it's not OK for her than it needs to be not OK for you.

One option is to say to her "I understand you want an open marriage and I don't. I wish that you didn't want to date other people but I also can't control your decisions. On my part, I will remain monogomous. I've said all I can about this topic and don't wish to discuss it further".

Then you walk away from this, the decision is up to her now. Don't say what you would do if she did have an affair. She knows how you feel. Let her think things over.

I do think kids are more sensitive to this than we give them credit for.  And they do not like at all to see one parent with another adult like that.  I think it's more instinctive on their part, even if they don't understand a thing about what an affair entails.   

And I think, being that pwBPD need to perpetually be the victim & are constantly playing games to drag in "allies" against their supposed perpetrator, in this case she'd be extra sensitive to the fact that this dynamic is going to flip against her dramatically if/when the kids find out that mom is seeing someone else.  Hence her insistence that he agree to her having an affair, to make him into an "accomplice" here, rather than the victim. 

And from my experience, a pwBPD would likely go even further than that, if confronted by the kids, pinning their whole affair on the other spouse for giving permission - even if they took the permission further than it was okay to go - and continuing to "rewrite the narrative" over time as much as they can get away with, to put all the blame on the non-, in order to preserve their standing with the kids. 

I do agree with you here.  I think Max needs to nip this in the bud; the more she keeps the conversation going, the more likely words will get misconstrued, or she'll succeed in trying to wear him down, and getting some sort of permission.

Like I said before, I think this is unusual in that it's such a "dealbreaker" kind of thing for a monogamous relationship, to see a pwBPD push for the right to have an affair, as their next thing to fill the bottomless pit.  It's almost like she's trying to push for such an extreme right that it will justify just about anything else she wants to do. 

I know there are lots of examples of the BPD spouse cheating on these boards, but I don't recall ever reading an account of them asking permission first.

I agree that an affair would be a problem and that kids would pick up on it but I meant - in my experience - when there was already issues- relatively if we were swimming in drama it would add another bucket of water to it, more drama rather than be the drama.  We were oblivious to her circle of friends and what they did.

What we were focused on was whether or not she was in a bad mood. We were afraid of her.

I think the reason Max’s wife is asking Max to agree to this is so she can avoid blame and shame. She could sneak out and have an affair but I think she knows that is wrong. What she wants from him is to discount monogamy and agree to an open marriage because that would make it OK. It’s more than permission - it’s absolving her. That also doesn’t mean she’d not react if he had an affair, but if he did - he couldn’t blame her for one.

I think she know that sneaking off and cheating is wrong. In her mind, agreeing to an open marriage makes it not cheating. Like seeking a loophole in the rule.

Update:

My T encouraged me to avoid circular conversations on this issue, saying that after W knows my position on this, her actions are up to her and any further discussion is simply a waste of emotional energy.  I agree with that.  The past week I was open to talking with W about this other woman, was open with W talking with or spending time with this other woman so long as the conversation between me and W was not about "open relationships" or non-monogamy and W's time spent with the other woman did not cross the boundary into a physical relationship of which I had stated a clear boundary. 

I had prepared myself for how to deal with that boundary being crossed.  In my mind that would end the r/s and I was okay with that.  Somehow in my mind I knew that with my W's new relationship BPD would suddenly show its face in short time.  And it did.

W wanted to go out with this woman last night after the kids went to sleep.  She asked me if that was OK, and I said that was fine with me.  Frankly, I was happy to be away from conflict and drama for a few hours.  I watched a movie and did a little self-care (felt fantastic!).  I was asleep when she came home. 

This morning I asked if she had a good time, and I learned that the BPD traits came to the surface.  W was upset because she found out the other woman was also pursuing another r/s at the same time, and that other r/s was getting serious.  W now seems to be recognizing and analyzing a double standard and recognizing her own self-destructive emotions.  I did my best to explain those emotions are natural and the reason why I know that a polyamorous relationship would never work for me.  Now W has completely lost interest in seeing the other woman.  Now W is opening up about other various "red flags", and it's pretty clear to me that the other woman is probably emotionally unstable herself and it is probably a good thing for all involved that things wind down now.

I don't expect the drama to be over, but at least for now W is recognizing her own disordered thoughts and emotions and may be open to a different kind of therapy approach. 

maxsterling ,

That's good. This can make your life easier. But you need to take this opportunity to guide her into DBT. Hopefully, you can pay that for her.

I used ChatGPT to find all therapists nearby that do DBT, got the messaging contact of all of them, added them to an online spreadsheet, and asked my wife to contact them. She was going too slow, so I contacted them myself and asked about the price for each one of them. She went for the cheapest and finally scheduled it.

My wife was diagnosed BPD as a teenager - that was probably about 1990.  She went thru DBT then, and probably off and on until her late 20s.  Without it, she would probably be dead by now, so in that regard it was a success.  Then sometime in her late 20s, another T diagnosed her with PTSD.  Since then, W has latched onto that diagnosis.  It's either the internal shame she feels over BPD, the need to downplay BPD to not scare others away, or the fact that PTSD garners a victim response, rather than an aspect of her personality that is flawed.  But very, very clearly W checks all the boxes for BPD.

This has played a role in the recent events.  W seems unwilling to look at the role her personality (and personal trauma) plays in what she is feeling now.  Instead, it seems she is trying to accept her being a person who likes to sleep around as normal and natural as a way to justify her urges, and others who do not (such as me) as out of touch with themselves.  In her mind, it seems she feels much of her "trauma" stems from a lack of acceptance from herself and others for who she is.  It's not the normal "actions have consequences" thinking that most of us have. 

In other words :  Sleeping around is more likely to bring emotional drama and trauma, whether that be biological or cultural, it is the way life works in our society.  In W's disordered mind:  Sleeping around brings trauma and drama only because other people are cruel.  The irony is that W might have had a casual sexual relationship, then feel hurt that the other person did not want an emotional connection.  For W, that is trauma because the other person backed away. 

Most people understand that and learn from our mistakes and step away from situations that in the moment may be exciting, but we know long term will only cause grief.  W seems, for the moment, to be in a state of mind that is at least partially receptive to that.  Her interest in polyamorous relationships is based upon her short term emotional urges rather than what is good for the long term.  She was at least able to admit that in some wat this morning.  Progress, but without a professional to help process it she is likely back to her previous mindset in a few day s or weeks. 

It seems like she didn't make many years of DBT. Maybe in the 90s, BPD was too stigmatized, or someone stigmatized her. Maybe a romantic partner? Anyway, you might be in the best position to make her feel comfortable again in going through more DBT.

Apart from that, I think part of what creates the need for this behavior is her unconscious goal of upsetting you and starting a major conflict. Because this is one of the few ways she can effectively get you out of balance. Does that make sense?

Pefect- you didn't try to control her going out. This took away her need to push back. You were not attempting to control her decision. The rest was up to her.

I was thinking of suggesting that some time to yourself could be a possible "benefit" to her going out, but of course, it's not a reason for her to date other people. Still, you were able to relax and get some self care rather than fret over what she may or may not be doing.

You simply asked how it was. You didn't question more, pry, or get angry, or emotionally react.

As what can happen- the reality of her meeting with this person didn't match what she imagined it would be like. By not trying to stop her, you allowed her to figure this out herself. When she was away from you, her actions were up to her.

I also don't think the drama is over because, this is just one manifestation of your wife's BPD drama. However, you handled this well and hopefully can use some of these skills in other situations with her.



 

Wendy - the drama is never over.  But I agree.  Lesson learned here for me.  Goal #1 is always to step out of the drama.  I just need to remind myself that whatever she does or doesn’t do is her, not me, that she is expecting a response from me.

It’s not the ideal relationship or partnership, but I don’t think a pwBPD is capable of that.  I want to be able to have open and honest dialogue with my wife, but I have learned opening my mouth and saying more than is needed is wading through danger.  W thinks it is lonely.  But that is on her.

Today she sent the other woman a text message, but I don’t understand her motivation.  It sounds like it was a “have a nice life” message recognizing her emotions and how she feels hurt by the other woman’s r/s.  The other woman hasn’t responded, and now W is obsessing about that.  Now, by virtue of being under the same roof, am guaranteed to hear about this for awhile. 

There is a strange irony here - W thinks having an open relationship will solve her problems and stabilize her emotions and stabilizing our marriage.  But it is that same behavior that kept her from having stable relationships for her whole life.

Like she told MC last week - that she feels the reason she is unstable is because i won’t allow her to sleep around, yet one must have a stable marriage first in order to have an open marriage.

The thinking doesn't make sense. It's disordered thinking. Trying to rationalize with someone who is thinking like this ends up in circular arguments.

It's also projection- someone or something else is the "reason" for the issues and someone or something else must be the solution.

A main component of boundaries is knowing who you are- what is you, what isn't you. If someone has a poor sense of self, poor boundaries, they may be more influenced by ideas and identities but not realize the actual reality of it.

I don't think what your wife is seeking is just about having an urge. By going on the website, she shows up as a new person, with a new persona. No baggage or issues with anyone. She can then interact with people who are interested in her as this new person. It's seeking affirmation, positive attention. She can be an "open marriage" person in this new world.

Not with you. You know her better. She can't pretend to be someone else with you. I watched my BPD mother do this.  There were a few times I'd be with her and her set of friends and think "who is this person" she seemed so different.

Somehow this met an emotional need for her. While at first, it feels envious that someone else got this "great" persona, I realized it wasn't real.

What you see with your wife, is the real one, not the persona, and as hard as it is, it's the real relationship, the good, the difficult.

If I could make a suggestion- these "crisis" situations also have a secondary gain for her in the form of attention. When you are in a circular argument, or helping her process her feelings- she becomes your focus.

When she came home upset that this other woman had another relationship, I think it's a natural inclination to look at this as something to solve for her or help her to solve. The additional drama feels like more drama for you but it's actually her own issue. You can be a supportive listener without feeling like it's your role to fix or help her process. Validation is enough "that must have felt bad" and then let her sit with her own feelings. You can encourage her by saying "I know you can handle this well".

Sometimes the only way for someone to learn is through the experience. If you  are able to help and fix less, your wife will experience her own feelings more. I know you have empathy for her and also want to keep the peace at home but perhaps her own feelings are the better learning experience. Of course we don't let people we care about put themselves in a dangerous situation if we can help it but this was one for which the consequences were hurt feelings.

I think you had no control over this situation to begin with. She's an adult. She could be on a shopping website or a dating website- how would anyone know. IMHO, the boundary was crossed when going on a dating site. Maybe her initial interest in this was for attention, but I also think she knew it wasn't what the two of you had agreed on.  Maybe an element of the conflicting discussions with you was her need to have this action absolved by your agreement. Hard to know.

I believe that from that point, no discussion would have changed her mind. I think the resulting time and circular discussions had the secondary gain of attention on her, which also made her feel valued but then, there's no resolution from that. She knows that all she needs to say is something irrational like "you aren't letting me sleep around" and you then try to convince her otherwise.

Like my BPD mother, many of her ideas would not result in follow through on her part but they did get a reaction from us, and attempts to stop or intervene and these would become emotionally charged conflicts- with resulting attention to them.

Hopefully this experience will help you decide your response when future "needs" are brought up. You may want to consider not fixing or helping her with her feelings as much. We've all been or are on a learning curve with this.