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 :help: I have posted mainly on the “bettering a relationship” board, but the relationship continues to deteriorate. It feels like the ship is sinking, and I’m filled with anxiety, fear, sadness, regret, and shame. My uBPW wife of nearly 34  years has been steadily getting more and more dysregulated over the past 10 years since we retired. It seems as if she’s heading into a true mental health crisis, and it’s really really hard for both of us. We have two adult children, and we try to keep our marital conflict out of their lives, so they would be stunned to know what’s really going on behind closed doors. I’ve written about it elsewhere so I won’t go into detail here, but in the last couple of months, her extreme anger and rage has become apparent on almost half of the days, and even on the “good days” she always finds several opportunities to harshly criticize me for at least five or 10 minutes.

Briefly, she considers me a covert narcissist, autistic, financially abusive, guilty of coercive control, a womanizer and flirt, completely untrustworthy, etc. I am far from a perfect husband, and I may be mildly autistic (difficulty with social cues), and there is some truth to financial abuse if you consider frugality in the early years of our marriage. I thought I was creating a great life for her by being the breadwinner while she could stay at home and concentrate on raising the children, and she seemed to be just fine with it at the time, but now she looks at her life as an opportunity wasted to achieve bigger things. I am guilty, in a much milder sense, of some of those things, but one thing that I am not, and she is convinced of, is that I am a flirt, and I’m looking to have another woman. I would say I do have some of the traits of covert narcissism, but I don’t have it at the disorder level, that’s for sure. But as I hear these and many other criticisms over and over and over again, I start to wonder if they’re true. She thinks that I am 100% to blame for all of our problems as a couple and for any of the struggles that our adult children have. She has even reached the point now where she doesn’t want to be out in public with me for fear of how I will behave, either flirting with women or trying to look like an impressive person.

I am an introvert, codependent, with a deep fear of abandonment. I have been as supportive, validating, and empathetic as I know how to be. I have tried not to JADE, although I do sometimes. I have assured her repeatedly of my devotion to our marriage and that I am not looking for another woman, but she doesn’t believe me, and it’s almost a daily threat of divorce now. This is so corrosive to my morale, and I see how much she is suffering, and it is heartbreaking. Lately most evenings we don’t even eat dinner together, and we spend the evening in our separate bedrooms.

I guess I’m just venting. I feel hopeless. I found this website extremely helpful, and I’ve looked at “rage phobia” and the distress tolerance techniques in particular.

I really don’t want to divorce, but I may not have a choice. Should I be secretly planning in the background just in case? I don’t want to follow through unless I’m forced to, say, if she moves out or wants me to move out.

She keeps mentioning finding a therapist, but nothing seems to happen.

Any thoughts or words of encouragement?  Does anyone know how to deal with a deep fear of abandonment?  Thanks for listening.

Hi GrayJay

Sounds like exactly the same dynamics of my wife (now my ex) and I’s relationship.

I too am an introvert and I can see now became co dependant.
I also may be on the spectrum for autism too, which was also down to my wife pushing me to go and see the dr because she believed I had a problem. Whether that is true or not I don’t know, I did fill in a couple of questionnaires from the dr, one for autism and one for adhd, which led to the dr putting me forward for an official diagnosis but that was over 2 years ago and I haven’t heard a thing since.

Like you I would be accused of financially abusing her. Everyone is on a baseline level of narcissism to some extent, it’s how we survive as a human race, but it doesn’t make us a narcissist unless we display obvious narcissistic traits. I think to some extent because of the dysregulated behave we are subject to we have to be narcissistic, or how the partner might perceive being as narcissistic, to cope with some of their behaviour.

I would also be accused of all sorts of adulterous behaviour, to the extent that I would actively try and avoid making eye contact with a female, striking up conversation with a female, talking about a female, and fearing any female ringing me about any work they wanted done (being self employed in property maintenance)

We were together 27 years but got together at a fairly young age so still have a way to go until retirement age. We split up because my wife blindsided me by monkey branching. Yes the red flags were there but because of her seemingly intense love and adoration and my lack of knowledge of bpd even existing, even though I can now see where she would split I still didn’t think she would leave me like that. I always considered I had a secure attachment style which I think might have been part of the problem, because I felt emotionally secure she may have seen this in her mind as a lack of caring. Anyone that knew us knew that was not the case and I did everything I could to support her and show her I loved her.

So what have I learnt coming out of the relationship.
Am I a narcissist? Well, no. If I was I doubt I would have put up with her behaviour for 27 years. The way she discarded me I would have just walked away, or probably destroyed her and her bf in seconds. Was I financially abusing her? No, she is mentally ill and part of her behaviour and one of the criteria on the DSM is her impulsive overspending. I on the other hand am sensible, and I will not spend what I haven’t got. While early on in our marriage I worked full time to support our young family she went to my place of work and had a row with my boss because she hated me going to work and leaving her (fear of abandonment) and wanted me to quit my job so she could work full time, open a business and I look after the kids. I’d work part time too, but she was the main bread winner then. If I went to pay for something she would always take over and pay for it, even a few months ago because our son and his girlfriend are expecting our first grandchild, we went to a local pub to meet his girlfriends parents, I was in the middle of buying a round and she came in and took over insisting on paying. But she would always accuse me of being tight fisted.
When we split up she stayed in the family home for a few months and told me to transfer the household payments I made into her name.  She couldn’t understand why her outgoings doubled because she insisted I paid for nothing, yet the reality was I paid for half of our household outgoings. She monkey branched because, as she told our son her new bf can support her financially better than I can. This is probably true but in my book is a shocking reason to leave someone and shows a lack of morals.

Am I autistic. Again I’m not so sure about that. Although I do have a tendency to answer posts like this where I talk about my own situation in an attempt to draw parallels and get my message across which does seem to be how an autistic person communicates so I might well be. Being an introvert and my ex being highly extroverted, she just suppressed me. That’s what walking on eggshells around someone does to you. You become withdrawn and a shell of your former self. In the beginning like I said I would work, and I would work long hours to support our family. I taught my wife a lot about control, told her how to sort her financial problems out, how to cook a meal without getting stressed and overwhelmed and get dysregulated. She was like a lamb to some extent at the beginning and I was a bit like a shepherd, yet she quickly turned into a wolf.

Her best friends partner (her real best friend that she has known since she was a 5 year old, not the fake best friends she seems to cycle through and discard) and I have spoken a lot since we split up. He said to me recently I have been a lot more talkative and spoken with him and had a hell of a lot more interesting conversations with him. While I will always be an introvert I am finding myself again and realise, although I always knew, that I was being suppressed by my wife. You kind of know that while you are in the relationship, but it’s only now after a couple of years you begin to realise just how much. I even did karaoke for the first time last year and was told by everyone that I was brilliant and had the whole room clapping, something I would never have done if I was still in that relationship because she liked to be the centre of attention. Sounds silly I know, but the woman I am now in a relationship with was working behind the bar that night and she had already been interested in me for nearly a year and at that moment she said made her realise she wanted to be with me.

You mention her finding a therapist. I have not read any of your previous posts so forgive me I don’t know if she is diagnosed bpd or is self aware. My wife hasn’t, and isn’t although I’ve told her since we split up that I believe she has a personality disorder that has played a massive part in her behaviour and our marriage breakup. She is also mid 40’s so still has some ability to charm men into a relationship with her, I am not aware of your wife’s age but am guessing post retirement age. Not wanting to sound harsh but the older we get the less chances there are running off with someone else. Maybe that is being somewhat misogynistic and you can never say it won’t happen but I believe there is some truth to that.

But the takeaway from that long winded message is there is a certain amount of projection and gaslighting going on here. She more likely has a mental illness so the reality is you probably are not autistic, not financially abusive, not narcissistic or any of things she has accused you of, but instead you might just be suppressed, sensible in a financial sense and defensive at times against her behaviour.

There is hope. If your wife is self aware then hopefully you can convince her to seek therapy, it’s for her own good as well as yours. I never wanted to split up with my wife, but again now that I have there is hope. I consider myself to be in a better relationship now. Certainly far less stress and I’m finding myself again. As for the fear of abandonment you have, I can’t answer in the sense that all the time I was in that relationship I was not aware of having a fear of abandonment. At the end of the day, we can not control another persons thoughts and feelings, and stressing about something out of our control is wasted energy. If you have a fear of abandonment and codependency issues are you seeing a therapist yourself as that would be your best course for developing ways to deal with these issues.

Yes, stunned at the severity of it but I doubt they are entirely unaware.

While you have stated the cause is your wife's focus on social media messages, is there anything else you can point to as to why the situation has worsened in the past 10 years?

For my parents, I think my father's retirement made him more available to my BPD mother to project her thinking. He also had co-dependent tendencies. His presence also served as an emotional release for her- to project, and her behavior got his attention, so it was a self reinforcing situation. While he used to not be available to her when he was at work, after retirement, she could contact him at any time. If he went out somewhere, she could still call him every few minutes.

I would second the suggestion for you to get counseling, to help you cope and also to be able to get some way to have time to yourself, so to possibly change this increased spiral.

Regarding the ASD diagnosis - be careful here.  My bpdW makes that claim about me, too, when she is dysregulated.  It’s a form of projection and putting the blame on you for communication issues.  I’ve brought up my potential ASD with 3 therapists who all laughed me put of the room, telling me that pain for an evaluation was a guaranteed waste of money.  We then discussed the behaviors W claims are ASD, and concluded that these behaviors are most present when dealing with bpdW and are most likely trauma related and/or coping mechanisms. In other words, “not communicating clearly” only happens when dealing with her and stems from an intense fear of saying the wrong thing.  It’s not because I don’t see social cues.

This. My brother laughs at me when the suggestion I have autism is brought up and he absolutely shuts that down. He does however dismiss my concerns my ex has bpd as nonsense and she is just mental. My eldest son did mention it a couple of nights ago though and said he doesn’t think I am autistic.

I always felt different but that may just be my introverted nature. Certainly nothing that impacts my day to day life. But my ex used to mention it, and did so one time at a family dinner where her mother turned round and said yeh I know or something similar. Bear in mind my ex’s mother has never told her kids she loves them, and never cuddled them or showed any affection. Her mother (ex’s grandmother) also was sectioned under mental health several times and conflict and lack of love has been passed down from generation to generation. More likely than not projection.

Hi GrayJay,

She is not afraid that you will cheat. In the past, maybe she was, but not now that you've retired. All of those accusations are fabrications of her unconscious mind to create a dramatic scenario and put herself in an "emergency situation", because this is how she gets the reward from her endogenous opioids. This is a self-destructive behavior, but it is uncontrollable and unconscious.

She will not move out nor tell you to move out. Unless you start to threaten her to move out, then she will echo that. But that echoing will be criticism, not an actual request. The reality is that she doesn't want you to leave, because you are her source of "relief." Research has found that pwBPD have a very low baseline tone of endogenous opioids (which is painful), but they also get an exaggerated tone when under stress (which causes relief and is rewarding). So she needs to create some stress with you to feel better.

Reference: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6863154/

In this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=967Ckat7f98) video, why do you think Andrew felt relief when waiting for the train to run over him? He could see his shadow, so he was backwards to the train but didn't worry. All of them, Andrew, Kyra, and Christina, describe that they get relief when they are cutting themselves (see 17:15).

The problem is that this opioid-seeking behavior can become addictive, especially in intimate relationships, especially when you are 24/7 with that person, and it gets even worse if you are codependent. It gets to a point in which the pwBPD will create the stressful situation just for the reward, when they don't actually need any relief. Since you retired, your wife has begun to develop this addiction, slowly. It's like a smoker who gradually increases the number of nicotine receptors in their brain. The more months and years go by, the harder it is for the smoker to quit smoking. In that same video at 13:28, why do you think Christina was obsessed about telling everyone that she should be able to use the markers on the papers?

In my case, the only solution was to have a "Living Apart Together" relationship. And I'm hoping that medication and therapy will resolve the problem. If you aren't ready to do that, then you can gradually start to spend more and more time out of home, but when you get back it will be tough and you'll be accused of cheating anyway. Is there any job you can take?

Hi there,

There's a lot going on in your post--a lifetime together--but what stands out to me is the stressful change of retirement.  You might wonder, why is retirement stressful, when it's supposed to be the opposite?  Well, any change in routine is stressful.  It may be that your wife has always been angry and highly critical--but you weren't around most of the day to bear the brunt of it.  Now that you're encroaching on her space and time, she has more opportunities to unleash her negative thoughts onto you.  And she might feel empty, without much purpose, lacking an identity, now that the kids have left the home.  YOU have become her entire focus, and her mission is to make YOU responsible for her unhappiness, because she doesn't understand that she has to be the one to choose happiness every day.  Indeed money issues come to the fore; after all, there's not as much money coming in, and maybe your wife feels unable to spend as freely as she wants.  Sure, it's normal to penny-pinch when starting out; most people start adulthood with debts, not piles of cash to swim in.  That your wife paints that as financial "abuse" is probably because she doesn't appreciate how darn hard it is to earn income and save for the long term.  The nature of BPD is to be intolerant of discomfort, to be impulsive, to want her needs met right NOW, darn it.  If she really wanted more money, what's stopping her from picking up some part-time work, such as dog walking or babysitting?  Another characteristic of BPD is to re-write history, generally in a negative light.  What's more, the reinterpretation of history always makes her out to be the victim.  That way, she blames others for her problems and avoids taking responsibility.  Does that sound about right?  That's classic BPD in my experience.

Another thing to consider is that she might be experiencing adverse effects of hormonal changes.  Menopause can be tough on some women, and maybe in ways that aren't the obvious ones.  The thyroid can slow down, leading to general sluggishness and feeling glum.  For me it comes with irritatingly itchy skin . . . an ongoing nuisance that disrupts sleep and can make me cranky at times, because of the relentlessness discomfort on some days.  I guess I'd ask if your wife has had a full check-up and blood panels done, to rule out physical ailments.  Oftentimes there are treatments, lifestyle remedies and supplments that can make a real difference.  Feeling better physically can lead to feeling better mentally.

Look, a common BPD trait is to project ill feelings onto the person who is closest to them.  Accusing you of being a narcissist, abuser, womanizer, mentally deranged or other mean things is extremely typical.  Sure, she might dredge up supposed "evidence" of your wrongs, but is the evidence highly distorted, or patently false?  My guess is that it is.  I guess my advice is not to take such accusations personally.  Sometimes the pwBPD in my life will make accusations that are so incredibly distorted that I have to suppress a laugh . . . it feels like she's calling me a poo-poo face, and that's the best she can come up with.  Once you see her accusations for what they are (projections most of the time), it's easier not to take them personally or doubt yourself so much.  If she were complaining about something real and valid, it would be easier to tackle it, right?

I understand that this is really tough on you.  Having a dysregulated spouse at home all day isn't fun.  Do you have go-to strategies for self-care?  I think it helps to have a "menu" of self-care options.  For me, sometimes that's as simple as a walk, a quick errand or a visit to the library, just to get me some space, and give my loved one some space and time to calm down.

If someone could be all those things, that would be impressive.

Not  that you're looking for a fight or to escalate, but when I would start getting the laundry list of all the ways I'm a bad person, I'd throw that back at her and say "Why are you still here then?"

dang, I said that too when I was 'controlling, insecure, emotionally/verbally abusive, toxic.'

If I am truly all of these things and my actions hurt you so badly, why are you with me because no one deserves that.

I hope this helps you in some way: we are retired, but elderly now although I'm older than he by 5-1/2 yrs.

There's a way I've found to live with dbpdh as I'm unable to leave due to a trade-off I've made in my mind to avoid assisted living nor moving 1,000 miles away to my son's house. Incidentally, my son is mostly unaware-- he does see an impatient and very self-important father, but expresses concern for both of us as if he's had a good role model-- in regards to work ethic, yes, which my son has said. But, I've always been ready with a lie, too, like you.

If you can see yourself as emotionally separate from what you see every day, it helps. When h wants to act as if nothing happened and puts the ball in my court so to speak, I say things are not okay, without elaborating. "They just aren't." He can leave if he wants to, but I resist saying that. His mood will change anyway and this is not news to him.

The fear of abandonment you have is probably compounded by the way you're treated. Dbpdh had 10 yrs of therapy and was told to stop devaluing me, to no avail. I think both our therapists meant that him not giving me any credit was irrelevant. You deserve to feel good about the things you control that turn out well.

To feel better about myself, I go back in my mind to the last address I had on my own and what kind of person I was at that time when I wasn't afraid and saw myself managing uncertainty. It is still possible for you. If you need to protect your emotional health above the fear of abandonment, you can consider easer ways to live for yourself. The therapist I had for 4 yrs said to look at what you've already been through.

It is possible to let everyone think what they want to about you; you're very unhappy, and others will care even if they don't understand at first. As I was advised on this forum to realize adult children have been through things, and they don't need details. I still believe that advice, just in case, and you have the right to think about your own future. Sixty sounds young to me now.

Thanks to everyone who has replied; I really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. I feel a bit less alone.

Today there was another threat of divorce and she was dysregulated much of the day. Exercising at the gym (we go together but do totally different things) almost always helps her (and me), but lately much less so. On the drive to and from, she was pretty nasty. Fortunately she wasn’t shouting, but her emotions were still pretty intense. I’m happy to say that I didn’t escalate, but listened, validated her pain (not her endlessly recycled accusations), showed some empathy, and otherwise gray-rocked. It was pretty bad. But I did not escalate, and it could have gotten much worse. We had plans to go to another couple’s house for dinner, and shortly beforehand she threatened to call them and cancel, telling them we had been fighting. But we went and had a very pleasant time and for now she’s reasonably content. She has been isolating us for a while now and I think the socializing was good for both of us.

But she continues to send me many angry Facebook reels about narcissists, cheaters, and bad men and husbands. It’s low quality rage bait. The worst are the many nearly hour-long YouTube AI-generated videos purporting to be Carl Jung’s teachings on Heyoka empathy, spiritual archetypes, and the empath’s abuse at the hands of the narcissist. The narcissist is the catalyst for the birth and transformation of the empath into a higher, fully-actualized being. The narcissist is evil and must be rejected. The fake German accent of “Carl Jung” and the creepy images, not to mention the fabricated teaching and loopy manner of exposition are really grating. But people in victim mode who imagine themselves as empaths love this stuff, judging by the comments. It’s a cottage industry. (Sorry for going off-topic.)

I had intended to respond to each of you, but it’s late now and it’ll have to wait. Thanks for listening.

It is possible that your kids aren't fully aware but also they too, need to adhere to the unspoken "family rule" to maintain that all is normal. We also "walked on eggshells" around BPD mother.

And yes they will probably be shocked when they see the extent of what you are experiencing, because it is probably worse than they know. However, if they are to have anything to do with the two of you in your elder years- they may find out.

I agree with At Bay that the adult kids also have also been through their own experiences, and don't need to be given all the details, but if your kids want to be involved in your elder years, they will see what is going on.

To summarize what I think might be helpful to you in regards to the insults, the accusations, the divorce threats- they are not personal to you. They are dysregulated thinking, and emotions being projected out. We kids compared this to a kid who ate too much candy and got a stomach ache and threw up. After that, the kid feels better. For your wife, this is emotional vomit. She feels better when she gets it out on you. You don't.

I wasn't as aware of what was going on with my parents as I was busy with my own family and job but when my father got ill, I did spend more time with them. BPD mother was saying these kinds of things to him, to me, to caregivers. I had heard divorce threats since we were kids- those weren't new- but it was just talk and not action. The internet wasn't available when we were kids and she wasn't on social media later but she had read pop psychology books and was saying the same type of things.

If Dad got upset with her- he was "psychotic".
I was "hormonally unbalanced".
And more- but I think you get the general idea.

We only know what we know at the time and, I did take her comments personally. After all this was my mother. It's hard not to take them personally because this is your wife but in actuality, these comments are not about you at all. It's her own inner turmoil.

BPD affects the closest relationships the most, so at the moment, you are the one she is projecting on the most. Mostly people outside the immediate family were unaware of what was going on at home. Where I saw this more objectively is when my mother, in her elder years, needed assistance and since caregivers spent a lot of one on one time with her, this dynamic happened with them too. I heard her say the same kinds of things about them.

Listening to this all the time takes a toll on you. Prior to retirement, my father had another world where he interacted with rational people- work, where he got validation, affirmation, and his real self reflected back to him in his interactions. Being around BPD mother more, without this "reality check", her thoughts and ideas were what he heard most, and IMHO it is hard to hold on to your own sense of self in this situation.

While changes like retirement, aging, and other sressors may increase BPD behavior, it's been there all along. It's that your own coping mechanisms have changed. You are available more to listen to this and it makes sense that you feel you are losing a grip.

All these videos, ideas your wife is sending you- it's not true, it's distorted thinking. The threatening to not go to a social occasion- my BPD mother did that. The isolating you- she did that too. What is actually happening is that, once retired, you have become more available as an emotional caretaker to your BPD wife. Caregiver burn out is real (for anyone in that position).My best advice to you is to get "another world" back- in any way you can- excercise by yourself, go to a bookstore and read, talk to rational people and do what you can to maintain your own well being in this situation.

Great observations here, and the analogy of emotional vomit is apt . . . especially since it ends up all over you, you're upset by it and you have to stop what you're doing to clean up the mess, and yet the ick seems to linger for the rest of the day.

Indeed the pwBPD in my life has had years of therapy, and she's adept at brandishing psychological terminology.  At first I was surprised she knew the word narcissist, because she's generally not very articulate, EXCEPT when she's describing the abuses and traumas she feels others are inflicting upon her.  She's "bullied."   She's "traumatized."  Her family is "toxic."  Her mom is a "narcissist," "psychotic" and "delusional."  Her dad is "abusive," "controlling" and "invalidating."  Her relative is "condescending."  Another relative is "over medicated."  And yet the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that these terms describe her own behavior much better than that of the people she's accusing.  It's mostly projection. 

funnily enough I was thinking that exact analogy NotWendy mentioned this morning. Slightly out of context.

It was elsewhere on the internet and a pwBPD suggesting that they love more deeply and quickly than a nuerotypical person and I’d responded with how that is measured, whether a borderline has a love-o-meter to measure that. That a borderlines love is only more due to the fact they want to be loved more in an unhealthy way towards the relationship.

A physiologist answered basically saying the pwBPD doesn’t understand love in the same way a normal person does and they have been emotionally stunted in infancy, usually through some form of trauma.

The analogy that came into my head was like a child in a sweet shop that saw some candy they really wanted but had not put in the work, or saved up enough to buy the candy, but they grab it anyway and run out of the shop. They then consume that candy as quickly as possible and become sick. They then return to the sweet shop and blame the owner of the store for making them sick.

Don't internalize or accept her criticisms of you.  No one is perfect, and no one's imperfections justify being emotionally, verbally, or even physically abused, and treated as your wife treats you, or mine did to me, or how any pwBPD treats their spouse, or significant other. 

Being frugal is prudent, and rest assured that had you given into her demands, it wouldn't have satisfied her, she'd just want more.  That's pretty much the nature of BPD. 

I think that's one way to look at it: that pwBPD have poorly-developed and immature ways of looking at the world.  I've also seen this analogized with colors: to them they're only capable of seeing and processing things in black or white, and they therefore can't cope with the reality that the world is many shades of gray. 

Their view of love is also very self-serving and shallow; it's not altruistic, and doesn't translate into any sort of acceptance, patience, or tolerance for their significant other's own needs and wants.  As soon as there's any sort of conflict, or failure to deliver on a demand, you'll wonder where that love went, as you're shamed, called names, berated, subjected to fake sob sessions and, some even get physically assaulted.  But they love you, of course, so you have to ignore this and forgive them.

Absolutely.

My wife cheated, her reason being she didn’t think I loved her.

She then monkey branched, because she wanted to feel more loved. Despite constantly telling her I loved her and doing everything I could for her, seeking external validation from someone that called her amazing and brought some flowers round, completely ignoring many, many red flags.

I’m sure at some point that version of enough will become not enough.

Rowdy, this video has helped me to understand your situation: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dYguLokVq4I?feature=share

For me, this is clearly caused by the abnormalities in the EOS, which have already been detected in scientific studies. The reason why this matters is because there is effective pharmacological treatment for the low opioid tone, which can be used through life.

And my wife began such treatment yesterday. In a couple of weeks, I should have good news.

Thanks for the link SuperDaddy

I know my ex’s new relationship is shallow, superficial and nothing but a band aid to fix her perceived emotional problems, along with using her new supply financially.

Too late for my relationship but I wish you luck with yours and hope the meds have a positive effect.

I think this thread can be retitled “wife dysregulated almost every day.” Another big blowup today. I was trying to share all the passwords in the password manager with her. I helped her download the app to her phone and then went to look at technical documentation on how to do this. It was pretty confusing, but I was making progress. We were watching how-to videos and looking at whatever information we could find. Suddenly, she exploded and said that I was gaslighting her, trying to prevent her from having access. She got really mad, stormed out of the room crying, and sent me a string of really nasty, ugly text messages. Threatening divorce again. The accusations were just so wrong, being accused of gaslighting her, that I snapped and began to JADE. I just couldn’t put up with her completely false gaslighting accusation. It just feels so hopeless. It’ll be another long, depressing evening with her angry at me, sending me endless threats and accusations, articles to read, reels to watch, all while avoiding each other‘s presence.
Later today, I will try to make comments on the helpful things that all of the responders have posted.

Hey GrayJay, sometimes explaining something actually helps in cooling them off. But it depends on the emotion and motivation. If you get angry and frustrated about her reaction, then whatever you say can be interpreted negatively as well, because she will pick on your negative emotion. If instead you are accepting her behavior (radical acceptance), not judging her, and only reacting because you are worried about her, then chances are you will help her to cool off. This is because as soon as she notices you are being compassionate, she will have the opioid release that she needs (her relief).

The problem is that we don't have a button to choose whatever emotion we feel, I know. And also there are things that we don't want to accept.

I’m in quite a distressed state right now, so I don’t know if the following will make sense, but I will attempt to comment and reply to several of the people who have so helpfully written to me in this thread.
Rowdy, my most recent therapist was an expert in narcissism. We had almost 50 sessions together, and he was absolutely certain that I was not a narcissist. It didn’t take him long to come to this conclusion, either. As to contact with other women, nothing is acceptable. I have to avoid even looking in their direction. Eye contact is almost adultery to her. I receive countless ragebait Facebook reels on cheating and cheaters from her every day.  If I am autistic, I think it’s in subtle social cues and below average eye contact. On the subject of projection, I think a high percentage of what she’s shouting at me actually applies more to her than me. It is just mind-boggling frustrating and exasperating.
NotWendy and CC43, you have hit the nail on the head as to why things have gotten worse. During my working years when she was a stay at home mom and taking care of the kids and she was quite occupied. When we retired, we suddenly were together all the time. And we have quite a bit of unstructured leisure time in each day, which she began to fill with rumination on her childhood, marriage, relationships with her family of origin, and then delving deeply into emotional hurts and relational problems. The deeper she went, the deeper down she went emotionally and the worse our relationship got. Aside from gardening, hiking and exercise, she spends almost all of her free time reading about psychology, personality disorders (especially narcissism), intergenerational trauma, and so on. Too much of this type of rumination is bound to lead to depression, anger and sadness. When we retired, we moved far away from where we had raised the children and made many friends.In retirement, we became somewhat isolated, and she had no one to unload on except for me.
SuperDaddy, I have not had time to look at your links and videos yet, but will. I do believe she gets some sort of a high though, from pouring out her rage on me. Ironically, she accuses me of feeling pleasure when she is really upset. I cannot convince her otherwise. I am very conflict averse and codependent. Her moods really affect me strongly. My stress level is very high, and I have a very hard time getting a good nights’ sleep, tossing and turning and lying awake for a long periods of time, wondering and worrying.
CC43, do you have a menu for self-care, and if so, I’d love to see it. In bullet points here are mine, in no particular order: 1. EFT tapping, 2. 4-7-8 breathing, 3. Five senses grounding, 4. Mindful meditation (feeling, naming, not judging.), 5. Hypnosis recordings, 6. Mindful self compassion recordings, 7. Guided meditation recordings, 8. Journaling (feelings/thoughts dump), 9. Read recovery literature: ACOA, Alanon, CODA.        These things all help a little, but it feels like bringing a squirt gun to a gun fight. Anyone who has other suggestions?
At Bay, thank you for telling your story. I didn’t clearly extract what helped you or what advice you could give me, so if you can respond specifically, that would be fantastic.
NotWendy, I love the vomit analogy. It seems so accurate, but it is so painful for both of us to deal with. I’m about 95% sure that I am such a permanent trigger to her now that even when I’ve done nothing wrong I still get blamed and it brings up everything that is hurting her from her entire life. It all gets raged out onto me.I just don’t see how it can ever heal.
PeteWitsend, thanks for the encouragement. I need to become very strong internally and know who I am. I know how important that is, but as you know how difficult it can be to actually practice. One thin silver lining to this raging thunderstorm is all of the personal growth regarding my own self knowledge that I have gotten from this ordeal.
I’ve no doubt forgotten to reply to some of the other items, but that’s about all I can do right now. Thanks again everyone.

I highlighted these parts of your post. I saw my father go through this and even if adult kids don't know all the details, I could see the strain for him.

I can make some suggestions from my own experiences. They aren't the same as yours exactly, but I also experienced the dynamics with my parents and this prompted me to do the work in CODA and ACA. My father was co-dependent and I had learned some of these tendencies.

CODA takes personal work and it's most effective when one works with a sponsor. Going to meetings is a part of it but the one on one with a sponsor is where the personal work happens. If you aren't working with one already, I think it's essential. Choose someone you can relate to, someone who you feel has the confidence you are seeking, and also a male, for similar perspectives.

Your self help strategies are good ones but, with the exception of CODA meetings, they are all solitary. Isolation is common in co-dependency. The meetings are a first step to making changes with this but it's still a first step. The statement "self doesn't heal self" is heard in this program and it's true. I couldn't see my own behaviors as well. When a sponsor turned the mirror on me, I could begin to change them.

Isolation is also lonely. Your BPD wife's social mask is hiding her shame and low self image. You are her accomplice in this. While I don't think it's appropriate to speak publically about her, it would shame her, speaking to someone, in confidence- a counselor, therapist, sponsor- also helps you to validate your own perceptions, connect to someone on a less superficial level, and also theraputic. You need the therapy too.

BPD affects the closest relationships the most and so it makes sense that you are the main person to trigger her. It doesn't seem fair, as family members are the people who care about them the most but I think this is why this happens. PwBPD also mask in public and that takes a lot of effort. With family, they feel secure enough to not do this.

If just your presence is setting your wife off, then I think it would help to have some time away from her, in another environment, with stable people. If all your time is spent listening to her own disordered thinking, it's hard to hold on to your own. Find something that isn't solitary but that is enjoyable. Volunteer work, a hobby that's done with others, even a part time low stress job.

These are all just suggestions.  Outsiders are powerless. I also understand that this is easier said than done. Hopefully you will be able to take steps to preserve your perspective and well being in this situation. For a start- a therapist, a sponsor- someone who you can safely and confidentially speak to may help.

Hi there, I think you have a decent self-care list.  I to practice controlled breathing, but mine is the military-style "box" breathing, which I'd describe as 8-8-8-8.  Sometimes I practice it while "gray rocking," and sometimes I do it while walking, too.  I also do five senses grounding.  My "journaling" is mostly on this site, as it helps me process events which transpire, and helps me feel less alone, because if I were describe what was really happening to other people, I think I'd come off as too negative and a little crazy myself.

I'd say my main go-to is exercise.  I prefer to exercise outdoors--there's something about fresh air, nature and changing scenery  that is comforting.  But I maintain a gym membership as a back-up, especially when the weather doesn't cooperate.  Moving my body has a way of relaxing my mind.  If I want to give my mind a total break, I'll focus on box breathing while on a walk.  But typically what I do is a "noticing" exercise.  I make a point of noticing something special on my walk--the sound of ice cracking on a pond, a gigantic mushroom, a swooping hawk, a frog duet, a lone bright red berry on a bush, March Mudness--and I take a "snapshot" in my mind.  Merely the act of trying to notice something special gives my brain something positive to think about.  At one point I was writing down the remarkable things on my walk in a notebook, and when I reviewed the long list, I could recall almost all those moments, as well as marvel about how many great walks I had taken.  This might by my personal twist on a gratitude journal.

Another thing I do is call a friend.  Now, this is one is tricky, because I don't want to dump on people all the time, nor lose a friendship.  But having a friendly ear to listen to me every so often helps me avoid feeling lonely or isolated.  I consider myself lucky because I have a couple of friends who have dealt with mental illness and understand where I'm coming from.  In fact I was surprised to learn it's more commonplace than I originally thought.

Sometimes I'll combine the two activities and invite a friend to go on a walk with me.  The issue is that this requires some planning.

During high-stress moments, I'll sometimes chew some gum.  There's something about chewing gum that seems like a stress reliever, an outlet for nervous energy, and maybe it helps blood flow to the brain?  The little taste of sweetness is pleasant, and maybe it's like the five senses grounding technique, getting me back in touch with myself?  When I was working in an office, I generally kept some gum nearby.  And guess what?  When I detected my teammates were stressed out, I'd offer them some gum--a little pick-me-up, a tiny break in a busy day, a friendly gesture, a way to show I cared, and sometimes an excuse to check in and maybe offer some help.

I too have had bouts of insomnia.  For me the best remedy is to exercise.  I'll still wake up at night, but I know I'm getting enough sleep because I'm functioning fine during the day.  Even if I'm not sleeping, I'll tell myself, I'm relaxing in bed, my body is getting the down time it needs.  If my mind is racing, I'll deploy the military mantra:  Don't Think, Don't Think, Don't Think, to try to banish intrusive thoughts.

I love reading, but sometimes when I'm stressed out, I can't focus enough to read.  Sometimes I'll do puzzles instead--a Sudoku or crosswords.  You'll say, but you need to focus on those too, and that's true, but the focus is intermittent, on micro-problems, not the sustained focus I need to remember plot points or historic details of a nonfiction book.  And sometimes I'll turn on a podcast instead.  I'm trying to learn French, so sometimes I'll turn on a podcast in French, and that seems to turn on a completely different part of my brain . . . helping me "travel" outside my immediate environment.  The ritual of daily learning I find comforting--doing something for myself, a routine of learning for learning's sake, which disordered people can't ruin for me.

Oftentimes I just need to get away.  Sometimes I'll drive to the local library.  Sometimes I'll drive to a scenic parking lot.  Typically I'll take my laptop with me, in case I want to get some "work" done (such as catch up on emails or pay some bills).  Sometimes I just need some peace, some space to do things like read the newspaper without being interrupted/needed/criticized.

Another distraction technique when I'm riled up is to clean my surroundings.  I figure, I'm upset and I have negative energy, I might as well put that energy to good use.  That's when I'll do some simple chores, like ironing, tidying, vacuuming my car or cleaning the windows in one room.  The result is comforting to me--a reduction of chaos in an otherwise chaotic world.  Cleaning and tidying gives me a renewed sense of control over my environment. 

Another go-to when I'm at home is to take a relaxing bath or shower.  For me this is a way to feel "clean," to wash away the worries of the day.  It's also about temperature--usually trying to warm up in winter and cool off in summer.  If I'm in desperate need of a good night's sleep, I'll try to take a relaxing bath before I go to bed, typically with very dim lights or candlelight.  I don't make it a huge production, it's supposed to be easy and relaxing, right?  Then I'll apply some moisturizer, which feels calming.  Now that I mention it, getting "clean" is a stress reliever for me.  Oftentimes I'll brush my teeth before undertaking a difficult task.

Sometimes I'll make myself a cup of tea, typically ginger tea (with no caffeine), sometimes spiked with cloves, turmeric, lemon and/or honey.  If the weather is too hot for tea, I'll make a tall glass of ice water with some lemon juice in it, a diluted lemonade.  I'll usually offer to make a drink for others around me, as a treat.

I think these are go-to techniques for me because they are easy, doable just about anywhere and free or almost free.  And they work for me.  I think the key is to find what works best for you.

While my father was the main target for her projections, we kids experienced this as well. I would visit her with good intentions, do things for her and still, she found something I did or didn't do that upset her. It's as if she couldn't contain the impulse to do this. It's hard to sustain one's own emotional well being when it's constant.

I noticed my father also had some coping mechanisms and a main one was to get out of the house for short periods of time. BPD mother didn't get up early so he'd go out for breakfast, take walks, and he also kept in contact with some of his work colleagues. Sometimes just small talk with the wait staff, or clerks at a store, would help his mood. However, when he began to have health challenges, it became more difficult for him to get out of the house.

I re-read your self help and even the CODA and Al Anon you mentioned was reading the literature. That is solitary too. The in-person contact is so important- at meetings, with a sponsor. It may be a challenge for you to get out to a meeting but as hard as it is, it's worth it. If you can do counseling too, that would be good.

Sometimes people are concerned about exposure at a meeting. What if you run into someone you know? You don't want to expose your marital issues. If anyone is at a meeting, they are struggling as well. Also people are reminded at every meeting to keep things confidential and emotionally safe.

I encourage you to not isolate with your wife- it's not good for either of you. She needs to have other connections as well and it's hard to do with BPD as BPD affects all relationships. It seems ironic but it's because she is more comfortable with you that she dissociates with you. Being around other people takes effort but she won't make that effort if you are available to her all the time.

GrayJay, thank you for asking me about my post. I’m very sorry that you are having a bad time right now, but you can make changes even if you’re not able to leave right now.

1.  The way you feel now and feelings of abandonment are compounded by how you’re being treated. You could go somewhere that you’re treated better, and are justified to think of a better future for yourself. Let that thought give you hope.

2.  Even though you have no control over what she says, you have control over how you react. 

3.  Go back and think of a time when you were living a better, calmer life and see yourself as that person able to handle uncertainty. It is still in you to do that. Her opinions are irrelevant in that reality. It’s nonsense, since you know she’s wrong. Seeing yourself in your mind able to do that helps. Try to feel that way for some peace of mind.

4.  Your children have feelings of concern for you as their dad, and will care that you are unhappy, but you don’t give details. As adults, they have been through things and know life can change. They will care even if at first they don’t understand. No details, only that you need to do it, which is true.

5. You can confide in others that your spouse is hard to live with and you’re very unhappy. You choose what to share or not with peers.

6. I’m not sure if you described times of Jeckyll and Hyde, but good times are one-sided delusions given how you’re treated. Gray rock-like answers you mentioned really are helpful. Saying you don’t feel like talking right now, and if pressed, you don’t know why: Things aren’t okay. “They just aren’t.” Remove yourself from the negative trash. Tell yourself it is a load of garbage. Breathe.

7. You can choose a better future and are entitled to do that. Your kids will still be your kids. Plan for change.
The years go by fast.

Hoping this helps you.

At Bay, thank you for describing your process in more detail. I appreciate it.
CC43 and NotWendy, I also appreciate your insights. You are correct that all of my techniques listed were solitary. I didn’t clarify it, but these are emergency procedures that I can do wherever I am, usually in the evening when I am at home with my wife. Certainly exercising is important if it’s possible at the time, and it’s one of my major tools.And I know that I need a therapist, and that groups like COD, ACOA and AlAnon can be very helpful. I’ve actually spent a lot of time in AlAnon over the years. I certainly can’t do everything in solitary fashion.But there’s a catch here, and you’re going to see how strange my situation is. My wife does not trust me to go to group meetings where there might be women. There is a men’s Alanon group which I have been part of, but not recently. This is something I’m going to keep pursuing.

Hi again,

One tactic I've noticed with disordered partners is repeated attempts to control and isolate.  Does your wife throw a fit any time you try to see friends, leave the house, pursue any life independent of her?  Does she "punish" you any time you dare to carve out some healthy time outside of the home to pursue something you enjoy?  Whereas before, when you were employed, you were compelled to have a life outside your relationship, now your wife thinks you shouldn't be allowed to have one?  I'd advise, this is a controlling tactic, and not healthy in the long run.  I have erected a boundary in this regard, which is, I'm not letting myself be subject to house arrest.  I'm determined to have a life outside my home, even if it means my partner throws a fit.  When he does, I let him have a fit, but it doesn't deter me.  I'm not saying I'm being intentionally mean, or that I'm having an extramarital affair, or that I choose to ignore my partner's wishes.  I'm saying that I'm supportive of having friends and pursuing healthy activities outside the home, and I expect support from my partner to do the same.  Because that's healthy, whereas it's unhealthy to be islolated and under house arrest all the time.  It sounds to me like you would benefit from a network of friends and support groups now more than ever.  I think that's especially true in retirement, when social circles can sometimes contract.

One thing I do to get out of the house more is to make plans myself, while extending invitations.  I'll say, "The forecast is nice, I'm going skiing/hiking/to the beach.  Do you want to come?"  My partner usually doesn't want to go, but I think he likes feeling included by being invited.  And I get a lovely experience out of the home.  The same goes for events in the community:  "I'm going to check out the local event, want to join me?"  "I'm going to the town meeting, want to come?"  "There's a new cafe in town, I want to check it out, care to tag along?"  And so on.

Just my two cents.

It may be strange to people who haven't seen these dynamics but it's very familiar to me.

My BPD mother would come up with "reasons" for her wishes but the the reason she presented often was not the actual reason. The actual reason was more about her anxiety and inability to tolerate being alone with her own distressing feelings.

For my father, not complying with her wishes also cause anxiety for him over what her reaction could be.

If he complied, this lessened her anxiety and also his. This is why your situation seems to be getting worse. The more you narrow your world, the more your wife can have her feelings soothed. This also lessens your anxiety. It's a self reinforcing pattern for both of you. Reinforced behaviors tend to persist. However, doing this also takes an emotional toll on you.

People assume if someone is being controlling that it has malicious intent but it also is a way of managing anxiety. I don't believe your wife actually thinks you are going to run off with some woman from a group. I think she fears you will talk about her, doesn't want to be alone for the evening. She may feel threatened by someone possibly having an opinion about her.

I think you are familiar with change being one step at a time. If the men's group is something more doable, it's a good place to start and it's fine to have a men's group. I think it will be a good thing.

It may be time to quietly share some of this increasing discord with them.  However, there may be unexpected repercussions.  Depending on how much they've been indoctrinated over the years, would they side with her?  They may get involved and then the conflict might rise to an even higher level. 


Denial, Blaming and Blame Shifting are traits of BPD.  Life is full of gray areas, neither black nor white, yet the warped perceptions enable such "all or nothing" views.  Reasonably normal people would realize that.  Ponder the difference between "sins of commission" (a person acting-out, harming others) versus "sins of omission" (a person acting-in, harming self more than others).


This was a huge trigger for my ex.  I was to the point of virtually stuttering in an attempt to always phrase my responses as innocuous as possible, even with my coworkers.  She would criticize me even for standing in a group where a young woman was standing.  It's been a couple decades, but I remember pulling up to a stoplight or stop sign and she told me not to look at an older woman crossing the street in front of us.  I was driving, looking in front of me is expected.  Well, except by a too-critical spouse.


I wouldn't call it "planning" since your wish is to have a pleasant retirement, rather that you're "getting your ducks in a row" for whichever way things go.  Maybe preparation for the future, whatever it is, is a less daunting phrase.

In case things get tense and an incident occurs where legal allegations are made, likely she would claim "he always..." as though a divorce would punish you for claimed {whatever} from years and decades ago.  I and many other have been through divorces and one consistent judicial outcome was that any unsubstantiated serious complaints older than 6 months prior to filing may be heard, considered as bickering and legally hearsay, and otherwise set aside.

Of course, this is information for you.  Your lawyer would strongly advise you to not share any legal perspectives or strategies with your spouse.  Sadly, legal tidbits you may share could enable your spouse to focus on better ways to sabotage you.


My ex also would vent when I was driving.  We were alone and, just like at home behind closed doors, she felt free to "verbally vomit" as was previously phrased.

Toward the end of my marriage my then-spouse would flame out at those around us.  First, friends were dumped, then our relatives, even my elderly parents.  Perhaps she didn't sit down and plan it that way, but in reality I was increasingly isolated from others' support.

In those days, recording devices were quite basic.  But I decided I needed some proof I wasn't the aggressive one - she always claimed she was the "victim" - so I did have some recordings just in case needed.  And if protecting myself (quietly, without triggering her) documented her rants and rages, well, so be it.

Hi GrayJay,

My prediction is that things will get worse, but you'll just stay and adapt.

Find out how to heal your wounds that cause your codependency. Only then will you be able to step forward in whatever direction you wish. In the end, it will improve your relationship.

Another big blowup yesterday on Friday the 13th, and today is a miserable Valentine's day. She has been dysregulated 5 out of the last 7 days. Yesterday was going well until two things happened: first, I received a couple of self-help books in the mail (one was a narcissism workbook), and second, she listened to another one of those creepy, AI-generated "Carl Jung" YouTube videos titled "Why The Narcissist Can't Recover After Betraying a Super Empath."  She ridiculed the books as worthless, and decided to eat dinner alone at 4:30 pm, an hour earlier than usual. Then she listened to the video and sent it to me. After we had both returned from our separate after-dinner walks, she went into a rage after hearing that I had not yet listened to the 40 minute (shorter than most) "Carl Jung" video. She carried on loudly for quite some time, and said some very ugly things to me. I sat down and listened to it. Pure black and white: she is the faultless "super empath" (sounds rather narcissistic to me), and I am the terrible monster narcissist with zero redeeming qualities. The narcissist will drain the super empath of all her energy, and after they go their separate ways the super empath will undergo a painful but wonderful transformation to a fully integrated, powerful human being, while the narcissist will coldly go on with life, afraid to look at their evil ways or work on growth, while looking for new victims to feed on.  This sort of tripe is poisoning her mind. She is obsessed with the reinterpretation of our marriage (she's the victim, although she projects that back on me) and dumping all her pain on me (she says I'm vomiting all over her!).  We spent the remainder of the evening staying away from each other, and exchanged some text messages. Hers were dysregulated; mine were as empathetic and respectful as I could make them.

She is threatening to move to another city. When we are together and she is chewing me out, she says I have "dead eyes" and zero empathy. In reality, I am doing my best to listen carefully, stay calm, and not JADE. When I explain to her that I am listening, care deeply, but am trying to remain calm because escalating the emotions on both sides only leads to further hurt, and that I'm trying to be present and caring, she gets angrier and repeats her "dead eyes" allegation. Seriously, there's no way to strike the right balance; it's "lose-lose" in most cases (I could give many "lose-lose" examples) and I've tried to gently point this paradox out to her but it just flies over her head.

I guess I'm just venting. It's a dreary, rainy Valentine's day, and another day where she feels little besides anger and contempt for me. I have expressed many times my desire to stay married, but she is just so incredibly upset and there seems to be no repair or recovery in sight. I do think our marriage is in a death spiral, but I'm always looking for some shred of hope amidst all the chaos and gloom. Thanks for listening.

Something to consider is - why is this spiralling downward when you are trying so hard to be a good listener and show compassion? Why are these behaviors (criticizing you, accusing you) increasing?

The advice on this board is to validate the feeling while not validating what isn't valid. How does one do this?

For someone with BPD, feelings feel like facts. You aren't a narcissist. However, she feels you are, is convinced that you are. What you are doing is being more patient, more kind, more explaining that what she's accusing you isn't true. You are trying to prove her wrong.

To her though, that feels invalidating, and when invalidated, she escalates. You defend more.

To change this, you would need to take a risk and do something different. Look at what you are doing now. Is it helping? No, whatever you are doing now isn't helping. However, you know the outcome of what you are doing now. It's predictable. Doing something different- you don't know the outcome, it's risky, but - there's a possibility of change there- maybe for the better, maybe not, but it's not getting better with what you are doing anyway.

A counselor advised me to substitute something absurd for the accusation, in thinking only. It helps to tone down your emotional reaction. What if, instead of narcissist, your wife accused you of being a pink elephant. What if she was listening to videos about you being an elephant, telling you that you have elephant eyes, and tusks. Would you defend yourself and try to prove to her that you aren't an elephant?

When your wife accuses you of being a narcissist (elephant)- she feels that and so it's a fact to her.

"You have dead eyes and zero empathy"-  instead of explaining how you are listening, try " that must feel so hurtful to think I don't have empathy for you". This is validating her feelings, not admitting to not having empathy. Then she will probably reply with more hurt feelings. "yes it's horrible, it's so hurtful" and you can say something similar like "that must feel really bad".

When she threatens to move to another city you can say "It must be really hard for you right now. I'd be sad if you did that".

Also, for your own emotional sanity, you can't be listening to this all the time. You need to find some time for yourself. Even if you fake it- "I have to run an errand, I'll be back later" - the errand is going to your car and driving somewhere - the park, the coffee shop, wherever you find some quiet.

The hope may be in changing your responses and so, trying something different can allow for that chance.

Another consideration is that behaviors increase when they are reinforced. What is your wife getting out of watching these videos? To her, they are a source of validation.

My BPD mother had a high need to feel validated. What I wasn't aware of was that she could easily feel invalidated by something I said that wasn't intentional to do that. This didn't mean being responsible for her feelings or walking on eggshells but to be aware of this, not react emotionally to her reactions and see if there was a pattern.

Unsolicited advice, even friendly advice, was perceived as invalidating. I noticed that doing this, she'd dysregulate and react. I could make a note to not give advice unless she asked for it. Sometimes even if she asked for advice - I'd say "I think your decision will be fine"- and sometimes she reacted to that too.

It didn't stop all the accusations or dysregulations. It also didn't stop my feelings when she'd say hurtful things, but being more validating of her feelings and not reacting emotionally as much did help tone some of the drama down between us.

Also, if your responses to your wife are validating, the videos may not be such a prominent source for her. You already know this is progress, not perfection. It won't change all at once. Hopefully the downward spiral will slow down or even stay steady- or maybe even improve.

NotWendy, thank you for your comments on validation. It can be very difficult in the heat of the moment, especially after days of harsh criticism. I’ll try to respond more consistently in the manner you describe.

Here is one excerpt that my uBPDw sent yesterday. One of many, and certainly not the harshest:

You are talking the talk but not walking the walk. You are showing disengagement and emotional numbing instead of incooperating your shadow. You look more and more distant and removed from feelings. The empath can’t be feeling all the pain.

The only way a narcissist can heal is to feel the burn/ pain. Like I said rolling in the vomit with the scorpions, centipedes and snakes instead of throwing all the muck at me! 

Hi GrayJay ,

It has always been obvious to me that my wife's outbursts and attacks were related to what she has gone through in her upbringing. However, recently I noticed that the way that her mother persecutes her is very similar to the way she persecuted me. There is a link. This is the type of emotional connection that she had with her parents, and it seems like with me she repeated it compulsively. Though with me she always wanted to play the persecutor, not the victim.

In the case of your wife, it seems to be the exact same. She is persecuting you with accusations.

One thing that Netwendy said is true: to get different results, you'll have to try something new. It's not up to me to tell you to split and live separately, but what I can see is that things will improve once you do. I say that because I know you would do it in a compassionate way, making sure she feels loved during the process. It worked for me. My wife is still difficult to deal with because of her emotionality, but now she won't attack me anymore, in any way. Now she is focused on fixing things rather than breaking them.

A couple of days ago, I was in her home, and I listed for her the 4 things I was expecting her to "fix" before we could be together again. After that, I asked her if she had any complaints about me that I should fix. She thought for a while and said I could share the washing of the dishes. You see my point now? The point is that she couldn't even remember all of the accusations that she was constantly making against me when we lived together. The drama evaporated.

Yes, it can be hard to be away from who we love, and it may feel lonely, but it can also be healing. There is no healing without pain.

I’d be cautious of getting drawn into the super empath vs. narcissist binary. This kind of content can be more polarizing than healing.

What matters more is whether the interactions feel safe and respectful for both of you. Labels won’t help with that.

Aarghh …. My entire post disappeared when I tried to preview it. I’ll try again, but I may not say it as clearly.
SuperDaddy, I think you were right when you say that we need to do things differently if we want to get results. We are stuck. I’m applying the tools as best I can, but not every relationship can be saved. My wife seems to have her mind fairly well made up that she wants to move out. I would guess it will be in two or three months time, but who knows. Tonight she repeated that she wants to move to a city that’s a little over an hour drive away. We’ve driven through the city many times on the interstate highway, but we don’t know it very well. She said she’s researching neighborhoods and houses for sale. I haven’t said this to her, but at some point I think I would recommend that she should rent for six months or a year to get to know the neighborhoods better before making such a big decision. And yes, she definitely sees herself as a victim and me as a prosecutor, although every chance she gets she mockingly points out, “you’re such a poor little victim, aren’t you?”

I have told her in an earlier discussion that I wanted to stay married to her and work hard on repairing the relationship, but if she was determined to separate or divorce, I would (very sadly) respect that, and I would pledge to be as civil and decent as I could possibly be. Tonight she said “I think you’re secretly thrilled that I’ll be moving and you’ll be by yourself. It won’t even take a year for you to get hooked up with another woman – and she won’t do it out of love, but for your money. And our kids will end up not getting your part of the inheritance.”

I really think that I’m done with women and marriage after this. I’m almost 70 and I want to have peace for whatever few or many years I have left. I will look towards hobbies, volunteer work, and being in social situations for friendships, not romance. I’ll also have a more authentic relationship with my two adult children.

Mutt, I don’t want to get drawn into the super empath versus narcissist binary, but she is completely consumed by it, and I need to at least engage with her to some extent on it. On the other bulletin board for trying to save or repair a relationship I posted about “poisoned by blogs, reels, podcasts, and other social media,” and I described the situation and how it was incredibly damaging to our relationship. It’s a death spiral down a rabbit hole as you keep getting fed more and more of this content, much of it generated by AI, or at the very least, serious rage bait. There is a cottage industry of self appointed experts on narcissism, mostly geared toward women and advising them how hopeless the situation is - end the relationship now and be happy again.

I’m sure my emotions will be all over the place, but the daily rage and contempt that she spews at me is really wearing me out. If/when she leaves, I will feel sorrow, regret, emptiness, and loneliness, but there will be some sense of relief that I won’t have to face this conflict 24/7.  But right now, I feel very sad but even more so, I just feel NUMB.

Contempt day after day will get anyone down. Being numb does not necessarily mean that you don’t care. It simply means that you have been under too much stress for too long.

Regardless of the outcome, be steady and dignified.

The four horsemen (https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/) (reference to Revelation 6) are:

• Criticism
• Contempt
• Defensiveness
• Stonewalling

Those all sabotage a relationship.  It's a blend of attacks and reactions.  No simple solutions and no guarantees.  And yes, many here have tried, that's why we came here.  Some managed to find improvement, others didn't and saw their relationships continue to crash and burn.  One key factor is that it takes two to make a relationship work - by working together - but only one to sabotage it.

After my father passed away, we kids would visit BPD mother and it seemed that every visit included verbal criticism and rage. It felt as if our presence somehow triggered this for her, and it had nothing to do with what we actually did. We avoided drama, didn't react to her, and tried to make the visit pleasant.

No matter how much we tried to make the visit a good one, this seemed unavoidable.

I recall one visit where we spent the entire time doing things for her and even hosted a family get together for her with her extended family. At the end of the visit, all she said to me was that she wanted me to know how much the visit had hurt her.

I knew to not JADE. I apologized- I said I was sorry that the visit hurt her. I drove home in tears, as having made a good effort, seemed to have failed with her.

I think what she said was her verbal vomit. I don't know if she believed we hurt her. However, her words were hurtful. I would have difficulty sleeping for a few days before and after the visit and feel anxious about the visits. I think one can only tolerate so much of this.

I know we each decide for ourselves what to do, but I could see that being around this was hurtful, whatever her motives were. I think we all balance our obligations in some way- she was an elderly parent, yours is a wife, but also we are a half of the relationship too. If this was difficult to tolerate with visits, it think it would be much more so to live together.

I don't believe we have to enable someone to be abusive to us. This wasn't what I wished for. I wished the relationship was better but we can not control someone else's words and feelings. I still visited but with boundaries. I think there's a grief involved with realizing the situation is not the one we wished for.

Bottom line- I don't know how much of this anyone can tolerate. It's probably different for everyone and it's up to you, but pay attention to how it's affecting your own emotional health.

To add- I mentioned obligations but also FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) is different. In the case of divorce, the law decides what your obligations are in terms of spousal support, divisions of assets.

Hi GrayJay,

You seem to be waiting for her to leave as an unfortunate event. In reality, she doesn't want to do what she says she wants. In reality, she just wants to "punish" you more. Do you realize that it doesn't make any sense to look at the neighborhood together with you (the person that supposedly she wants to get away from)? What she actually wants is to make you feel the pain of imagining that she is leaving, and with that she seems to be having success.

If you actually took an active role in getting a place for her, then maybe she would move out, but she would keep calling you every day and expecting you to do all of the things she needs, just like now. Then she would probably say the place you got for her is awful and that she will have to return home with some wild justification (such as accusing you of making her an isolated prisoner and depriving her of whatever).

The only way that the current situation could be reversed is if you figured out how to stop being at the receiving end of it. For instance, let's suppose you confronted her, asking if she wanted you to leave, and she confirmed it. Then let's say you got fed up and actually left. Then, if you were not faking it, then she would really bend over and start treating you well. I can tell that from my experience.

I have been in a similar situation as yours multiple times in my life, with multiple women, and all of the times what I said just above was proven true. Once you are not at the receiving end of it anymore, things change. But that takes a lot of emotional strength and capacity to live on your own.

Hi there,

There have been times in my relationships with pwBPD and BPD traits when, no matter how much validation and attempts at understanding I've tried, it just doesn't work.  Sometimes I think that validation can't work, because the pwBPD feeds off of the emotional energy and takes the validation as a confirmation of guilt, as well as an invitation to escalate.  Rather than calm them down, sometimes validation riles them up.  And sometimes the twisted narrative seems to become more and more convoluted at each successive telling.  In other words, in some instances, validation makes things worse, not better.  In fact my theory is that the farther back the grievance goes, and the more repetitive it is, the worse validation works.  She's not trying to resolve a current problem or incident, she's creating a narrative of abuse/trauma/victimhood.  She's not trying to find a way forward, she's actually digging herself deeper into a pit of negativity.  She doesn't want a two-way dialogue, she wants an audience and a punching bag.

It seems to me that your spouse is engaging with online videos to seek external validation of the abuse and trauma she's feeling.  But rather than feeling better, she's riled up.  Then she insists you share in that experience, and second the motion so to speak.

I admit I've called out the *ull sometimes.  I don't usually go into a long lecture or "let them have it," but I call it out.  "That's a lie and you know it."  "I've heard enough (of these baseless accusations)."  "Admitting to a lie won't make you feel any better."  "Nothing I say can make you feel better (so I'm not discussing this further)."  "I'm not watching any videos made by AI."  "You are not a psychiatrist, you can't diagnose me."  "I'm nice to you, I don't deserve this."  "I refuse to take part in your blamefest."  "Your attitude is too negative, I'm not letting it ruin my day."  "If I am the horrible person you claim me to be, then why are you even here?"  "You want to move, how am I stopping you?"  "You make all sorts of demands, but when was the last time you did something for me?"  "This isn't a discussion, this is a rant.  You want me to be a punching bag, and I'm not having it."  And sometimes, a simple and firm "NO."  They say NO to me all the time, I think I've earned the right to say NO sometimes.

Nine times out of ten, they are shocked into silence.  I think they were so used to validation that the pushback was unexpected, and therefore effective.  Then I usually proceed to give them a "time out," and later try to change the aura into something neutral or positive.

I agree 100% with this assessment.  "Looking for neighborhoods" is likely an attempt to manipulate YOU.  She's probably looking for a grand gesture, to be begged not to leave, which would make her feel better temporarily, but would also give her license to continue to treat you poorly.  I'd advise, if you find a place for your wife, she may agree to move out, but later she would twist the narrative and say you threw her out.  She'll say the new place is horrible and likely try to move back in with you, saddling you with the costs of moving/disruption as well as an unused apartment.

My guess is she has zero intention of moving out.  If she wants to move out, what's stopping her?  She's an adult, she can find a place to rent and can sign a rental agreement, and she can hire movers too.  Look, my young adult BPD stepdaughter finally figured out how to move out, and though she had some support with moving and rental payments, she got it done.  If she can do it, your spouse could do it, if she really wanted to.  That's what I was referring to in my quote above:  "You want to move, how am I stopping you?"  That quote isn't as mean as it might sound.  Basically it pushes the responsibility away from me and back onto her.  This is crucial for somebody who has a victim mindset all the time.  They generally expect OTHERS to rule their life, when the reality is, they have to start taking responsibility for it, and facing the consequences of their own decisions.  The blame game needs to stop at some point.  Maybe the first step is to stop playing it yourself.

What CC43 said about validation may seem contradictory to what I said- but not really as it's in context of the whole relationship and goals. It's when there's an immediate choice- in the moment- between validating the feeling behind an accusation, and trying to prove that the accusation isn't true, validating the feeling is a tool to take down the drama on your part. I doesn't change the other person, but escalation takes two and not arguing their point may help.

The goal of the tools is not to change the other person. It's not possible to do that. However, each relationship is different and BPD is on a spectrum. I think most people come to this board wanting to at least try to improve the relationship, and that can take learning some skills to deal with it. If this leads to the relationship working better, perhaps that relationship can be maintained.

However, as stated, there's not one solution for all relationships. Sometimes the better option is to not remain in the relationship. Sometimes one of the two wants to leave- each has free will. We don't tell posters to stay or leave as the choices and circumstances are individual.

It's one thing to be accused of being hurtful, but when it's constant and cruel, like the comment posted about you needing to hurt- steps for self protection are options. In my situation, while validating helped to tone down the drama when we visited, it did not stop the critical and hurtful remarks. It was more managable because we didn't live in the same house. It wasn't a marital relationship. Living with someone where the anger and criticism are constant and don't change, even with best attempts, may require other decisions.

I also agree that if you went through with getting her an apartment, it wouldn't solve the situation. If she wanted to do that, she'd have made her own plans. I agree with not going along with that.

Have you considered removing yourself from the situation when she starts this? I did that too. I might try validation first but if she continued being verbally cruel, I just excused myself and left the room, or the house.

This is difficult to do if there are children at home but that isn't the case with you. Have you also ever considered going to a hotel for a few days? (be sure this isn't considered legal abandonment as that is considered in divorce- to actually just leave would be but I don't know about a night or two). Has anyone here done that with a spouse?

I really want to say thank you to everyone who has commented. I appreciate your interest and desire to make some sense of this type of behavior. It means a lot to be able to vent here, and get outside perspectives because I’m often so caught up inside the whirlwind that I really can’t see. And of course, I need to try different responses, because we keep repeating the same behaviors over and over again. No matter how much empathy and validation I produce, it’s never enough and like a drug creates a craving for even more. So I need to feel a little less threatened and hold my ground a little more. I appreciate some of the actual phrases that you have used in your own lives.

After a nightmarish Valentine’s Day, yesterday and today were pretty good. We do not have the standard devaluation / idealization cycling: I definitely get the devaluation, but the idealization is just acceptance that I’m an adequate husband and everyone else is struggling too. “Things are actually pretty good!”What helped is that we took care of our two-year-old grandson yesterday and today and that provides a distraction. She’s actually quite a wonderful grandmother. And on her good days, I see clearly why I was attracted to her and continue to love her, even though she says she doesn’t believe I love her.

The evening of Valentine’s Day, when I was in my bedroom reading shortly before bedtime, she knocked on my door (we sleep in separate bedrooms) and came in very agitated. She was terrified that I was going to come downstairs and attack her physically, and maybe even murder her! At one point, I stepped toward her to give her a hug, and she recoiled in fear! But eventually I was able to soothe her and after maybe 20 minutes she went back down and went to bed. The next morning our grandson arrived early, and there was no further discussion of the disturbance.

Today was pleasant from start to finish, but I’m always on alert because I never know how quickly she might shift into a foul, unstable emotional condition.  One day at a time.

We might even get a temporary separation soon because her very elderly mother probably doesn’t have too long to live, and she lives halfway around the world. She may go to visit her during her final weeks and stay afterwards to help her older sister who is caretaking her mother. She might be gone for a month at least and perhaps two months or more. This will give both of us some space and some time to consider what our future holds.

Thanks again, everyone.

I agree with you here, that when your wife feels she has a "mission," that of looking after her grandson, she probably feels better.  The day with the grandson probably helped solidify her identity as grandma.

Alas, that feeling didn't last very long, as pwBPD have extremely volitale emotions.  Their sense of identity is fragile, so that they don't have a strong sense of self to fall back on, to see them through setbacks or plain boredom.  Your wife became dysregulated again, maybe because she was sad to see her grandson leave, and she "created" something to be upset or scared about.

What's concerning about your post is the delusional aspect.  You say your wife was "terrified" of you and thought you were going to attack her.  Now, it may be that she was inventing the entire scenario, just to incite you to react, in a misguided attempt to get your love and reassurances.  But if she really did believe the delusions, then she might be nearing a crisis point.

My adult BPD stepdaughter would exhibit delusions like this right before a total meltdown.  She thought others were "out to get her," but in a non-specific way.  (It's no surprise to me that she holds a victim mindset, even if she can't point to exactly how she has been victimized.)  Anyway, the temporary breaks with reality were a sure sign of completely falling apart, and she ended up in the hospital.  Now my stepdaughter's case might be different--I think her delusions were brought on by excessive marijuana use.  But delusions (temporary breaks with reality) are a hallmark of BPD, on the "borderline" of psychosis.  It seems to me that your wife's issues are escalating, even if they were "interrupted" by a couple of happy days with your grandson.  Does that sound accurate?  It seems to me like she might be teetering on the edge of a total meltdown.  Now, that might not be the worst thing, if she ended up getting some professional therapy that she needs.  But I don't know how much therapy can help change someone's negative thinking and behavioral patterns learned over an entire lifetime?

Congratulations on having succeeded in calming her down after 20 minutes.

This seems a bit similar to what my wife had in the first year of our relationship. She would struggle and say things as if she were having a nightmare. When I noticed it, I tried to embrace her, and she partially began to direct it at me, hitting me lightly with punches as if she was trying to defend herself. Then when she got back to reality, she said she was aware that she was not fighting me but couldn't help herself in doing that against me and asked for my forgiveness.

In her case, she was clearly reacting to past traumatic memories. At first, I thought the hallucinations were about her ex-partner who spanked her, but one day while she was sitting and I was standing up, she said she saw her father instead. From there on, it became clear that her big traumas were about her narcissistic father instead. Even today she is afraid of meeting him because he is unstable, so she thinks he could beat her.

Over time, those sleep hallucinations switched to visual/auditory hallucinations, which were minor, intermittent, and happened randomly.

In the case of your wife, I don't think she was "inventing the entire scenario." I think this is completely unconscious, even when the goal is to seek conflict. But in this particular case, I think she is just reacting to childhood trauma and projecting it on you. She needs to discuss her wounds with a professional. My wife opens up about almost everything with me, but with a professional who she trusts, she can go deeper and get better advice.

By the way, my wife developed those hallucinations because of ayahuasca usage (my fault). One year later, a colleague who is also gluten sensitive advised me to try a high-absorption form of B1, which is neuroprotective, so I did. I was only expecting my wife to possibly get better emotional resilience related to the gluten disturbances. However, I accidentally cured her of all auditory and visual hallucinations within a month.