BPDFamily.com

I don't think I'm looking for any advice, but if anyone has any to offer, have at it.

My dad called me today to let me know that the MRI he had this morning showed a spot on his liver.  He's had liver disease for so long that cancer has been a foregone conclusion.  The doctor didn't even schedule a biopsy, just a repeat MRI in 3 months to see how much it's grown.  I'm sure that I'll start doubting the doctor's approach soon, but for right now I'm just hurting.

So on the good side, my dad actually called to tell me rather than funneling the message through BPDh (as he did last month with his lupus diagnosis).  On the bad side... .I'm facing another step in the process of losing my dad... .alone.   I feel so cheated out of having someone to cry to that can hold me through the night and tell me that my pain is their pain, and they will be there to hold me when I bury my dad. 

Maybe BPDh would surprise me and be that loving, but I'm still getting over him trapping me in a room last weekend and he is the last person I want touching me right now.  I guess I'm angry that I'm tied to a man that I don't trust, who I don't want to "be there for me" even if I believed he would be.  I'm also angry that God thinks I can handle this on top of everything else.  Let's also throw in S14 being back in a funk, and I'm wondering how I can manage to make it through this weekend and pretend everything is okay, and help him work through his funk when all I want to do is curl up and cry.

Thanks for letting me share. 
BeagleGirl

 
I'm so sorry BG. You're right, no magic wisdom in handling your husband, but I'm sending my thoughts and prayers to you during this hard time.

Beaglegirl,

I am truly truly sorry that you feel so alone when you really want and need your partner to be that "rock" for you thru all this.  I can say I understand your growing frustration and mounting hurt in this situation as I just went thru losing my father this past October.  UBPDw made the experience far more difficult for me and only added to my hurt, isolation, and frustration.  It continues to be tough for me.  I hope you can find some resolve in your family members or a close personal friend thru this.

The only insight I may have is this(and I could be way off base) but I feel when my uBPDw saw me hurt, grieving, crying, and very sad at the loss I was suffering that she internalized my loss in a twisted comparative way to how/if I would feel that way losing her.(telling herself that I wouldn't be this upset if she had died.) Or maybe it's hard for her to understand that thru my grief I was not my usual self being upbeat and helping her to sustain a good mood thru modeling that behavior.  I was and still am at time deeply saddened with this loss and I have to hide this from my wife because it seems as tho (in her mind) it becomes a competition.  Like I have assumed the victim role and she does not know how to deal with it or understand that it has nothing to do with her. 

I don't know if that made any sense to you but I feel for you.  You're certainly not going to be yourself thru all you're facing.  You won't have the patience or mindset to deal with your disordered hubby.  It's ok.  Try your best to take care of yourself.  I am here for you (we're all here for you) and would be happy to talk with you.  It will be incredibly painful to relive but probably therapeutic also.  Looking back and removing myself from the situation helps me to digest what took place.  I know when I was in the midst of going thru this I did not have the emotional stability, energy, or clarity to appropriately handle all that was taking place. 

I am praying for you and your family. :)

Air hugs

 

     

Getting news about people you love is shocking.  What can you do today that is extra special for you?  Perhaps an extra walk.

When is last time you and your Dad went to a diner and had breakfast together?

FF

Thanks for the hugs and prayers.

My dad lives 2000 miles away, so visits have always been family affairs and it's been a long time since I've had time alone with him.  This morning I booked tickets to go see him next week.  I let him know.  I'll have about 4 hours with him before my mom gets back from her time with my aunt (who is being treated for breast cancer).  While I need to spend time and talk with my mom, I was hoping to have more time with just my dad, so I'll see what I can arrange.

I'm trying to process what I can.  The two things that keep coming up are:

My dad has not been supportive of my separation.  His last phone call with me (prior to yesterday) started with "I'm praying for you that you don't do something stupid like divorcing {BPDh}.  Your mom could have left me dozens of times."  His disapproval of the separation has been second only to the hurt it causes my children in delaying my decision to separate and the pain it causes me.  My biggest fear is that he will use this diagnosis as leverage to try to get me to go back to my husband.  I've spent the vast majority of my life trying to not disappoint him, and maybe even make him proud.  It kills me that he is disappointed in me because of my affair (revealed to him last year) and the separation, but I don't think I can go back to my husband at this time and I don't want that standing in the middle of my relationship with my dad right now.

My dad has been more of a father to my husband than his own father.  My BPDh started hanging out at my house when he was 15, and my dad has been the one he goes to for the "dad" type of things.  So my FOG is really kicking in about not offering comfort to my BPDh during this time.  I feel incredibly selfish, but I know that he would want physical contact as comfort and even the thought of hugging him makes me shut down. So I ask myself who else my BPDh has to turn to.  I know how desperately I long for someone to be my "rock" during this time and know it must be even harder on him.

Thanks again for "listening" and any insight/advice you can provide.
BeagleGirl

Hey BG, It probably is even harder on your BPDh, yet that doesn't mean that you should try to rescue him or be his caretaker.  It's not selfish to put yourself first; it's about loving yourself first and foremost, and accepting yourself just the way you are.  You are being authentic to yourself in terms of avoiding physical contact with him, which is healthy, in my view.  His problems, I suggest, are his issues, not yours.  Does this make sense?

LuckyJim

Hello again, BG, If your dad is using his diagnosis as a way to twist your arm to get you back together with your BPDh, it sounds like it could be an attempt to manipulate you through F-O-G.  At the end of the day, you are valid and worthy with or without your father's approval, in my view.  You seem to be operating under a premise that you lack something (his approval) in order to be complete.  I would submit that you are already valid and whole, just the way you are.

I have a hunch, and this is just a hunch, that there's something about your BPDh that reminds you of your father, and that in some subconscious fashion you may have recreated the same dynamic in your marriage, which is something that I did.  I could be way off.  If so, just let me know.

LJ

When there are lots of issues on the table resist the temptation to conflate them. 

I think it would be helpful for you to list out the different issues that will come up during your visit with your family.

Let's get a strategy for each issue... .

FF

  All this is really tough. My heart goes out to you.

My only advice is to try to address "problems" at the smallest, easiest level you can.

You don't want anything to do with BPDh. You've got good reasons. Keep your distance, at least emotionally. You cannot trust him to support you right now, so don't reach out to him. You aren't on a path to reconcile with him, and that isn't changing either. (And I'd add that you are not in a position where you can support BPDh in his time of need either. Just don't go there!)

When it comes to your dad, obviously, you want to be there for him and support him, and that is the thing to do.

Try to find a bit of empathy for his feelings about BPDh. He thought of this man as a son, and cared for him. (Heck, you cared for him too, and probably still do at some level!) It has to be hard for him to think of how BPDh did things which hurt you, and he's trying to avoid it, any way he can. This has to be really hard on him.

... .make it easy for him to avoid the 'bigger' issues, as much as you can.

The smaller, most immediate issue is that he might try to persuade, pressure, or manipulate you toward reconciling with BPDh or at least not divorcing.

I'd suggest being clear that you won't discuss this with him, aren't changing your mind, and moving on to another topic. Preparing yourself that this may come up should make it a bit easier.

Thank you all.

LJ,
You have made an astute observation.  I think that I managed to be one of those girls who "married their father", at least in some aspects.  I have realized that many of my "red dress" moments center around things that I have desperately wanted first my father, then my husband to affirm in me.  Neither has/does.  I think that is why I still struggle to not romanticize my affair partner - he felt like the first man to really know me and yet still affirm the things that I suspected (and now am establishing) are beautiful and lovable in me.  In a very similar way, as I have been letting go of hope for my BPDh to see/love those things in me I have felt a renewed desire to be "daddy's girl" and have HIM be the one to affirm those things in me.  Ultimately, I am learning who I am and how to rest firm in that regardless of what others say.

GK,
Thanks for the reminder to be compassionate and empathetic towards my dad.  I also appreciate the reminder to be firm on my boundaries.  I got to practice this on my mom earlier this week when she once again asked how it's going with BPDh.  I usually say "about the same" and change the subject.  This time I said, "I really don't want to answer that question as I feel like it puts you in the middle.  I won't be talking about my relationship with BPDh for now."  I need to say something similar to my dad.

FF,
You're right.  I am "confounding" a lot of things.  It's a slippery slope from a little overwhelmed to totally overwhelmed when my emotions are high. 

I think the issues at hand are:

-Figuring out what, if anything, to communicate to BPDh about my dad's diagnosis and how I'm handling it.  Dad just confirmed that he's told BPDh about his doctor's visit.  Right now BPDh and I are basically NC, so I'm not planning to let him know that I'm going out to visit my dad.  If he offers/asks for emotional support what are my boundaries?
-Dealing with emotions related to dad's diagnosis.  Who/how do I ask for support?  I think I've figured out a group of "safe" people, but everyone leads such busy lives that I don't think any of them will be the consistent support I think I'm looking for.  I'm thinking that I just need to accept that and have my "Rolodex" of people to call when I need something and just start dialing until I find someone available or have worked my way out of needing that something.
-Dealing with my dad's view of my separation.  I think letting go of the need for his approval and setting boundaries on discussion topics are the way to go.
-Dealing with my mom.  Compassion and Boundaries.
-Dealing with the temptation to confound issues.  Occasional time limited pity parties followed by conversations/journaling, etc to untangle the mess of emotion and sort the issues into manageable piles.

Eventually I will want to figure out how to fit my kids into all of this.  For now, I'm waiting until I get back from my visit with my dad to decide when/what to share with them.  That means a fair amount of compartmentalization while I'm with them, but it's just 3 more days of that.

I would not reach out... at all.  If he offers support or reaches out... ."Thanks for the support, I would appreciate your prayers."

that should be sufficient.

 Let me think about the rest of it a bit.

FF

Two different questions.

If he asks for support, I think it is best to keep it light and short and not really go there for two reasons: One is that you are leaving him, and it would be unkind to give him a mixed message about that.

The other may come and go, but most of the time, you are probably too hurt or angry at him to feel sincere in trying to comfort him. I wouldn't recommend going against this feeling.

If he offers support, I think you know you cannot rely upon him (emotionally), trust him, or be vulnerable with him. You can thank him as gracefully as possible... .but you know what will happen if you are emotionally vulnerable with him, right?

Update:
I arrived at my dad's yesterday.  I am SOO glad I made this trip.  We had a few hours together waiting for my mom's plane to land (she's been visiting her sister who is being treated for breast cancer).  We didn't spend much of it talking about my situation with dBPDh, but what we did was more open and compassionate than I had hoped for. 
One of the things that struck me from our conversation yesterday was his comment "I had no idea that things weren't perfect in your marriage".  Ultimately, he didn't know that I was hurting all these years.  As a parent, I can imagine how I would hurt if I discovered my children had been struggling with this kind of pain for years and hadn't shared it with me. 
Another thing that struck me was him saying "Your happiness is important".  I get the sense that he's still not at the point of saying "Your happiness is more important than your marriage vows", but heck, neither am I.  :)

On the "home" front:  I invited my dBPDh to my counseling appointment Monday so I would have a witness/mediator present when I reinforced that I AM seeking a legal separation whether he cooperates or not.  The conversation devolved a few times around his themes of "why can't we have an informal therapeutic separation where we are working towards reconciliation",  "your lack of forgiveness is standing in the way of us having a marriage", "everything I do is intended to make you happy, not just get you back", etc. 

Our counselor tried pointing out a few times to him that when he didn't have an answer for the "hard" questions I was asking (that pointed out the lack of change) he would deflect onto something different he had done that he felt demonstrated that he HAD changed or counter attack with something he was angry with me about.  By the end of 30 minutes he was fed up with both of us.  We both advised him to get a plan together for what he wanted our legal separation to look like (he wants a mediator rather than separate lawyers and was assuming the mediator would tell us what the separation should look like) because I was done protecting his interests and would be asking for what I wanted.

He sees a mediator(?)/lawyer tomorrow.  He sent me the guy's name and other than establishing that he is a lawyer, I couldn't find anything online.  A mediator I spoke with a couple months ago said she would not meet with individuals, only couples, so I'm not sure how comfortable I would be using this guy as our mediator when my dBPDh has seen him privately.  Regardless, I'm moving forward with the separation.  Unless he is advised otherwise by his lawyer, dBPDh seems willing to let me move back into our home and he will go find a separate residence that is suitable for us share custody without nesting. 

Among all the other things floating around in my brain is the persistent question "Why don't I just divorce him?"  I have answers, but none of them seem to "stick" enough to keep the question at bay.

-If I divorce him he won't have access to my health insurance and that would be one more reason for him to not attempt DBT.
-I am not yet ready to face the stigma of divorce
-I don't yet know that I can reconcile divorce with my faith and don't want to play the "ask forgiveness not permission" game with God.
-Divorce would mean more damage to my children's hopes for reconciliation (I hear from friends who come from divorced families that the kids never really give up hope for reconciliation).
-Divorce would mean eventually feeling the need to "get back on the market" and face all the fears of rejection and ending up in another broken relationship.
-Divorce would mean giving up on my husband.

On the flip side, I would love to be free (or as free as an ex-wife can be) of his drama and abuse.  I would also love to be free to seek out a relationship with a man that would be the loving partnership that I dream of.  And, let's face it, I'd like to have hope of having sex again.  I can't (won't) imagine my husband fulfilling those desires for emotional, spiritual, and physical intimacy ever again.  Partially because I don't believe he will change, and partially because I don't know that I could ever trust that change enough to have that kind of relationship with him.

{Sigh}  I guess I need to go back to waiting (with legal separation as a form of waiting).  I want to take action.  I want finality.  I want a path forward and something to hold onto.  But more than those things, I want to do what is right.  And I don't trust myself to know what that is yet.  I have to keep reminding myself that it's only been 3.5 months and the only clock ticking is the one in my head.

Hey BG, It sounds like progress with your father.  I find his statement that "your happiness is important" to be noteworthy.

Legal separation is a step in the right direction.  If and when it's time for a divorce is something I think you'll know when the time arrives.

I find it encouraging that you are having thoughts of finding a loving partnership in the future, to include a healthy romantic life.  You deserve it!

I like how you are being authentic with yourself, which took me a while to get the hang of after losing myself in my marriage to a pwBPD.  "Become who you are"!

LuckyJim

I've got a quick reaction to this.  I've done a "formal" TS that was governed by a written agreement with child protective services.  One of the agreements that was written was that we would "comply" with our counselors.

Once I got that in writing... .I was essentially good with everything else.

A lot of positive change happened for our family over those few months.

Here is my idea.  Go meet with him and the mediator.  Ask questions and make sure you understand the process... .commit to nothing.  It's a meeting to educate yourself.

Offer to have him come back to joint counseling with you and "formalize" a TS process with the "goal" of a reconciled God honoring biblical marriage. (you can add or delete adjectives as you see)

A big part of the process that I would insist on is that any issue that he "counterattacks on" or deflects will be put in writing and shared with his individual counselor.  There is no need to "debate" those and wast valuable MC time.

Make sure his individual person "get's it" (from your point of view) and from his.  At that point... .he either will follow the guidance and change... .or he won't

Same goes for for you.  Your hubby should have the ability to put his "issues" for "requests for change" in writing (from his point of view) and your point of view should be on there as well.

Him:  She won't have sex with me.

you:  He yells at me to convince me to have sex. (I understand it's more complicated... this is example)

Both counselors will likely agree to a "treatment plan" for the TS where he practices speaking to you kindly and respectfully.  

I'm convinced that you should leave the "God honoring" and Biblical on there.  My memory is that porn is an issue.  Let him defend his choices and either change... .or not.  

Note:  We all understand he is the leader... .so there is little chance any halfway decent counselor is going to suggest you have sex with him (using Biblical pressure) while he "considers" giving up porn.

This got longer than I intended... . Thoughts?  My goal is to give you comfort either staying in your marriage... or leaving it.  



FF

I like the idea of leaving the kids stay put and let their lives be grounded... .and the adults sort out their own living arrangements.

 |iiii

FF

FormFlier,

My honest thoughts?  :)

A TS would have been something I would have considered 6 months ago, and maybe I'll consider 6 months from now.  I begged for a TS for about 9 months before finally moving out.  He was unwilling to commit to any sort of formal, long term process that would involve me having physical separation from him.  The problem (from my perspective) was and still is that every hurt is seen by him as an isolated event that can be apologized for and forgiveness on my part means removing any boundaries and/or consequences.  He still refuses, even after receiving a BPD diagnosis, to acknowledge the abusive patterns at play.  He does not take responsibility for addressing them.  Even if he does take action to "address" things, they are the actions that I have demanded or (now that I've stopped stepping in and telling him how to behave like a loving adult husband) others tell him to take.  Even then, he is extremely selective about what topics he "seeks Godly counsel" on. 

With the history of following the "rules" only long enough to get me to drop my walls (and relax my boundaries) or until he finds a new behavior that doesn't have specific rules against it.  "You didn't tell me that I shouldn't buy a truck without telling you on a Tuesday.  I thought that was only a weekend agreement" is not that far off the type of loophole he's willing to find and defend to the death, or until he can't stand the consequences of that action and wants "back in my good graces".  At that point his usual MO is to display enough remorse and make promises to never do that again, but when pressed, he will continue to defend/justify his actions.

So for now, I'm not willing to expend energy working on our marriage.  I've been trying to define what it is that I want to see before I will commit to working towards reconciliation in concrete terms that I think he could understand.  "A consistent demonstration of choosing to put my needs and desires ahead of your comfort" seems too vague.  He wants a list of do's and don'ts.  The problem (that our MC points out) is that following a check list is not "love" and no checklist can encompass every circumstance that might arise.

The most recent clear example I can give (other than him trapping me in a room, which I can see having happened without him really thinking about what he was doing) is how he handled telling me about my dad's lupus diagnosis last month (yep, same dad who now also has a cancer diagnosis).  My dad told him about the diagnosis and (for reasons I will deal with my dad on, not my husband) asked him to tell me.  Hubby admits that he felt uncomfortable with that arrangement, knowing that I would be hurt that my dad didn't tell me directly.  He also admits that he THOUGHT of telling my dad that I should hear it directly from him.  Instead, he CHOSE to not risk disappointing my dad by suggesting I be informed by my dad instead of him.  He KNEW that my feelings were on the line.  He CHOSE to put his own comfort ahead of them.  When confronted with his own words, he started minimizing (I didn't think it would hurt you that much), blame shifting (your dad was the one who asked me to tell you), and deflecting (why aren't you wearing your wedding ring?).  That conversation where he admitted that he understood that I would be hurt happened 3 weeks ago.  I have brought it up twice since then, looking for some repentance for the intentional harm he inflicted.  He continues to alternate between denying what he said and justifying his actions (while admitting what he said) until it's clear that neither is getting him anywhere, at which point he starts deflecting to things I have done that have hurt him (not wearing my wedding ring, not forgiving, etc) or pointing out things he has done that he feels I have not given him adequate credit for (the latest being a consistent acknowledgement of how he failed our S18 by neglecting his homeschooling so he could do things that he felt were more important at the time, including volunteering help to other people, taking naps, and jerking off to porn).

As I have told him repeatedly, if there is no repentance (and our MC and pastor both confirm they see a lack of repentance) then there is no hope for different behavior in the future.  He may stop specific hurtful behaviors (like porn), but without the heart change I don't feel safe that the cessation will be permanent or that it won't be replaced by another equally hurtful behavior that I haven't thought to put on the list of "things you shouldn't do if you want me to believe you love me".

I know that what I'm saying is vitriolic.  I know that I have plenty of my own stuff to work on if I want to be the Godly wife I want to be (whether he asks me to commit to it in writing or not).  I just don't see anything but pain in putting forth the effort towards reconciliation without some consistent signs of individual change on his part.

So those are my thoughts.  Response?

BeagleGirl

I do too, and that's what I was aiming for until recently.  Being trapped in a room and having him chase me, begging me to reengage, and finding out that he has been cyberstalking me makes me feel like sharing a house, even if he's not supposed to be there when I'm there, would have me constantly looking over my shoulder and trying to protect my privacy while he would be spending his time popping in for something he forgot and inspecting the living space(s) for information every time we swapped. 

There is also the aspect of desiring to see him take responsibility for creating and maintaining a life for himself and our boys.  The majority of what he has now has been chosen for and/or handed to him.  I look at this as an opportunity for him to build a life that both of could be proud of and that he can invite me into. 

First... .     I know you are in the midst of other important family time/things... .so please focus on that as your primary thing.

I realize that spending time in thought about reconnecting with an unrepentant hubby... .is frustrating (was that polite or what?   )

I'm going to ask a big picture question here...



Given this (and this is consistent from what I have heard from you)... .What do you have to loose with a TS?

Especially one that you are offering with the understanding that "misunderstandings" will be put in writing as an area to focus on with an individual counselor.

Yes... .a TS will take effort, but I bet if you are smart about it... .it will just redirect effort that is already there... .vice "additional" effort.

All my other comments are more minor... I'll hold off.

FF

I'm really happy for you that you are better connecting with your dad, and that he does support you, not just your marriage and your husband. This is great news, whatever happens to your marriage.

As for the questions of legal separation or therapeutic separation, it sounds clear that as of today, you are resolved to go forward with the legal separation.

The TS your H is asking for seems more like asking you NOT to do the legal steps than a genuine interest in working on his own issues apart from you as a part of saving your marriage.

A TS needs one other thing--it needs a counselor who is managing the TS. One who believes that it has some chance of improving/saving the marriage. Do you have one who is both A) willing to take on this role, and B) somebody you trust?

Great questions asked by GK.

I would further say that you could do both.  My recommendation would be to offer the TS as part of the pathway to legal separation or reconciliation... .that you are placing the ball in his court. 

In fact, another benefit of the TS is that there could be much LESS talking about the issues you find bothersome, because those could be designated for "only" the individual counselor to discuss... .until such time as there is progress to bring it back to the MC.

It sounds like you have a number of pastors and counselors with a reasonably accurate view of a non-repentant hubby.  So... .it is likely they would be able to discern change.  Change plus time will be an indicator of repentance.  I'm sure there will be others.

FF

I sympathize. Both my parents are ill right now. All my husband is worried about is he doesn't want to pay for their funerals.

FormFlier,
I've thought a lot about what you have to say about TS.  I'm discovering exactly how resistant I am to the idea of going back to a marriage relationship with my husband.  To be honest, I have built up walls tall and thick enough to shut out all emotions towards him other than fear and anger, and those emotions are the building blocks of the wall, so it just keeps getting taller and thicker.  My take - that wall is necessary to protect me from him.  If I feel anything else (love, compassion, grief, etc) then there is a break in the wall and he can continue to hurt me.  Every once in a while I take a peek at what is on the other side of the wall, and I see either the searing flames of his anger or the stinking bog of his neediness.  I've stopped seeing him as anything other than potential pain.  The kicker is that I don't WANT to see him as anything else, because then I feel compassion and I reach out and get hurt again. 

I liken my feelings towards him as those of a dog who has been kicked so frequently that I run and hide when he comes in.  If he coaxes me out of my hiding place, I cower when he reaches out to me.  That angers him and he pets me with just enough force to hurt me again while still looking like he is petting me.  Then I either run away or bite.  Both make him feel like I'm a "bad dog" to treat him that way when he did nothing but try to pet me.  He has even apologized for the kicking over and over.  He's brought home special treats for me.  Sure, every once in a while he might lose control and kick me again, or accidentally step on me when he chooses to walk over me rather than around me, but I should understand that he didn't start his day thinking about how he was going to kick/step on me.  It wasn't intentional.  The thing is, dogs don't understand our words.  They understand the tone of the words and our actions.  He keeps saying words that bring no hope to me because the tone and actions are unchanged.

I guess the biggest hang up I have about TS is that it implies that we WILL be getting back together at the end of the specified time period.  It gives him a check list of things that he can do that will obligate me to come back to him but, as I mentioned, there's no way I can put the heart change I'm looking for on that checklist.  In a TS, time is on his side.  The clock keeps ticking towards the day I agreed to go back if he complied with all the items on the checklist, and he only has to be "on his best behavior" that long.  He only has to make sure he doesn't break one of the written rules for that long (unwritten rules don't count because he wasn't informed of them in the agreement).  My experience has been that, without that promise of reward, he doesn't do what he knows he should do and doesn't put forth effort to figure out what he should do when that is in question.

I'll be blunt in saying that the biggest barrier to me returning to my husband is that I cannot imagine being in a physical relationship with him again.  Even if the porn issue never arises again, I can't imagine being able to drop my guard enough to engage in true physical intimacy with a man that I do not trust to choose to not hurt me when to do so may cause him discomfort.  I've reached that point of self-preservation where I don't want to offer up anything of myself to him because it can be used as a weapon against me, and physical intimacy is the ultimate vulnerability. 

You may have heard, as I have, that men engage in sex as a path to intimacy while women need intimacy to feel safe engaging in sex.  I think that is a pretty safe generalization.  Both men and women desire both sex and intimacy and (in a healthy relationship) one leads to the other, but somebody has to start the cycle if one or the other is missing.  If a couple understands that and each partner is willing to take the step of faith and give what they know the other needs to have the full experience, all is well.  That is why the biblical guidance on love and marriage involves each putting the needs of the other ahead of their own. Now take that model and have one partner consistently withhold the reciprocation that is necessary for the full experience.  Whether it be the wife withholding sex from a husband that is faithful in initiating and fostering an intimacy, or a husband withholding intimacy from a wife who is faithful in initiating and maintaining a sexual relationship with him, it doesn't take long before the "giving" partner starts to feel used.  Take this pattern, add the peripheral hurts that life and BPD bring about, and I will tell you that physical intimacy with my husband has come very close to feeling like rape.  I use the term "violation" usually, because it is less loaded, but in my nightmares it is very much rape.

I used to think I was alone in this, but since I have started researching the impact of emotional abuse, I have come across a number of blogs/articles that felt like I could have written them, so well did they echo my experience during times of physical "intimacy". 

The last time I asked my husband what change he would like to see in our relationship, the first thing he said was "more sex".  Not "I'd like you to nag me less", or "I'd like you to treat me with respect and give me the benefit of the doubt".  Not the thousands of other things he could have asked for. 

To sum it up... .Therapeutic separation=counting down the clock until I return and give him what he really wants - more sex.  More sex=more violation.  Therapeutic separation=more violation.  As a scientist, I know that may be a faulty syllogism.  I'm just not willing (at this time) to test that hypothesis.

I guess I have a lot to talk to my therapist about next week.  :)

     

I would take print outs of this to your T... .or potentially send them to her ahead of time.  

There is nothing here to "fix"... .or that is "wrong".  Like many of us we have gone through horrific experiences and have been hurt very deeply by people we trusted and loved

There is not only one acceptable answer to that hurt.  

I'm going to say something that is FF's "interpretation" or "understanding" of Biblical truth and how I see it applying to your situation.  I may have an incorrect interpretation... .but this is one that I am comfortable with in my relationship with God

You will have to find one that you are comfortable with.  It's ok if it's different than mine.

I think it is totally OK for you to look at your husband and "Biblically forgive him" yet choose that the relationship with him is not reconciled.  

In other words... "you are forgiven and we are done".  

Does this rise to the level of having "Biblical approval" to get a divorce.  I don't see that when I read and pray through the issue.  I tend to be a "plain reader" of the text.  No gymnastics... .it says what it says.

However... .pwBPD introduce elements into these relationships to "the extreme" of anything that I know of in the Bible.  I've certainly struggled with this in my marital relationship.

For instance, without long lasting signs of change from my wife, it is likely that I will never again ask her for forgiveness for anything.

I realize that "normal" Christians that have never been around pwBPD would think I am a flagrant sinner and "flaunter" of the faith and Biblical "prescriptions" for a healthy marriage.  It is good for a man to "humble himself" before his wife, share his failures and ask for forgiveness.

But... .what if you did that and your wife laughed outloud, used the Lord's name in vain and then told a long paranoid... whacky story about "what I was really talking about".

What if you confronted your wife about that being a flagrant sin and she insisted she didn't laugh... .and felt justified about the other part. (not one hint of repentance... .not a hint for using the Lord's name in vain)

What if this wasn't a one time thing... .

In my mind... this is now a "settled issue" for me... .I'm not "happy" about it... .but I think I have RA with it.

Somehow... .your journey for your choices needs to get to a place of "being settled".  Please don't chase "happy".  There are times when that's not a choice.






I'm going to end this post... .and later offer some clarification on my idea of a TS... .which seems to be very different than yours.

The point that I hope you can talk to your T about is this issue of what you "want".

Genuine question:

Are you talk about what you want... or what you deserve.

Only you can answer that... .and it may not be obvious.  I hope your T can sort that out.

FF

Anything that in your mind "can't be put on the list"... .MUST be put on the list for a TS to have any chance of working.

A TS is a process... NOT AN OBLIGATION.  That should be clearly spelled out.

He could heal and you may not.

You may heal and he may not.

You both may not heal.

You both may heal.


Speaking Biblically

He needs to clearly know that this is NOT a promise.  It would seem that many "Christian authorities" that you trust look at him and see no repentance.  He needs to understand that just because one or two... or all of them "change their mind" and say he is better... .that you have a choice as well.

All you are promising to do in a TS is to work on your issues.  You are not promising a result.

His leadership and "headship" of you has gotten to a point where you decided to withdraw from the r/s because of abuse. 

It sounds like what you are saying is "absence of abuse" is not "the bar" that you will set for returning to him.  Do I have that right?

It sounds to me like you "might" return to a husband that puts your needs ahead of his, that loves you more than he loves himself, that cherishes you and pursues you even when you are not responding to him (giving him sex).

Do I have that right?

I'll hold off on more to make sure I my understanding is correct.

FF

Hello again, BG, You've articulated several valid reasons why a temporary separation is out of the question for you.  I admire your courage to be authentic about your feelings and what your needs are at this stage.  Plenty of us have been down the road of separation/divorce from a pwBPD, so you are not alone if you determine this is the right path for you.

LuckyJim

When I read this, I don't see you as undecided or conflicted about your relationship with your husband. You sound DONE. You aren't going to go back to him. And if he does SOMEHOW, manage to say the right things, you've been burnt so many times that you won't trust him to stick with them this time. (You've expressed concern aplenty about taking the step from separation to divorce, but that's a different question, and not one you need to address today.)


One thing I've done with tough decisions like this is to mentally "try out" a final, committed decision, and sit with it for a while and let your feelings come up and let them stabilize, before you take any big, final steps in either direction. (It almost doesn't matter which answer you pick for this exercise.)

If it works right, you will quickly find one of two things: Either a sense of clarity, comfort and relief... .or a horrible sense that this is a heartbreakingly wrong choice, and you cannot possibly go through with it. If it is the latter, "try out" the other choice and see if you find the comfort, clarity, and relief.

(If you go back and forth and are all over the place emotionally about it, then this method didn't give you an answer... .)

I agree with GK... .you sound done. 

There is one "part" of BG's story/explanation that gives me hesitation on her being done.  She seems to be searching for a way to divorce with Biblical blessing.  (quick version for those not familiar is "unrepentant adultery"

My understanding is that BG's faith is a big deal to her and the internal conflict regarding her "doneness" with the marriage and her faith is a big internal conflict and source of a lot of her prayer.

My assumption is that her hubby is not going to be able to "fool" anyone for an extended period of time during a TS.  Especially given that many of the pastors and counselors seem to be of the opinion that he is NOT exhibiting repentance.  This apparently frustrates him greatly.

Another assumption is that if the TS goes as I believe it will, that the current counselors will have an even clearer view of lack of repentance because of several cycles of times where he "played the game" and then regressed.

Yep... that's judgmental of me.  People can always change.  Nothing about BGs story leads me to believe that he wants to change.  It sounds like he wants his life back that he used to have.

Very big difference.

So... .sadly, I think a TS would result in BG having a clearer view of her hubby's lack of repentance and an easier conscience or perhaps a more steely resolve to move on with a life without him.

I would assume also that true repentance, demonstrated over a long period of time, would be a good problem to have.

Either pathway involves a lot of healing for BG.

FF

Great questions:

I'd say that lack of abuse is a minimum for sharing a house (co-parenting room mates). I would set that bar slightly higher in that I don't want the lack of abuse to be dependent on me continually confronting and halting abusive behavior. I don't want to live my life continually on guard.

Sharing a life and marriage bed is something I know would take a level of faith and dependence on God I believe is possible but can't imagine, even if my BPDh started demonstrating a willingness to sacrifice his needs/desires when they conflict with mine. I want to want that, but that seems like such a "long shot" that I haven't really put forth the effort to get to a place of wanting it. Forgiveness is within the realm of what I believe is possible and am working towards, but trust seems a million miles away.

I know that only God can see the fullness of a man's (or woman's) heart, but I also believe He can give a gift of discernment. I believe that the bar for the consistency of BPDh's behaviors would drop significantly if I (and others) discerned repentance. I know we are all imperfect, and I don't think I'm expecting perfection. I'm looking for a loving heart that bears fruit in loving behavior. I'm looking for a husband whose heart is turned towards me and our children and open to conviction by the Holy Spirit (Holy Spirit being a role I tried to usurp in BPDh's life and know I can't fill). I want a husband who recognizes a need to seek wisdom in scripture and Godly counsel when dealing with a headstrong and flawed wife and does so, hopefully before hurts occur, of his own accord.

There is a lot more that I could say about what I would consider necessary for reconciliation, but I hope this gives you a better idea as to whether your assumptions are on the right track.

This is excellent... .very descriptive and I think something that you could describe to a counselor and that your counselors and pastors would understand.

Can you put a rough number to how often you used to have to "confront" this.  Twice a week?  What was normal.

You know that a pwBPD is going to say "so... .you want perfection... I won't ever be able to mess up... .etc etc.  While a pwBPD might not get it, it's important for those helping you guys to understand what you see as a "reasonable amount of confronting"

Personally... .if every couple months there is something that once you confront he backs down from and then makes amends, that's likely normal. 

Of course... .I wonder if any of us on this site have an accurate view of "normal".

What one verse would you most like your husband to "chase after"?

FF

FormFlier,
You are 100% correct about the source of my "conflicted" status.  I am ":)ONE" with my BPDh, but not with my desire to live a life pleasing to the God that I place my faith in.  I too am a "plain reader" of scripture, and as many times as I have read the scriptures on Biblically justifiable divorce the words are still the same.  I don't have Biblical grounds for divorce.  That doesn't change just because I want it to.  I've prayed that God would provide some sign that I am released from my marriage if He was willing.  No angles have shown up as of yet.

In all honesty, I sometimes stoop to wishing that BPDh would commit adultery so that I would have my "out".  Being a forgiven adulteress myself, I recognize how incredibly perverse that wish is. 

I don't have the same qualms about separation for the purpose of protection and (don't ask me why) I have been able to justify not treating my body as though it belongs to my husband.  Trust me, the lack of sex has not been "for a time of prayer and by mutual agreement". 

So I, on some level, know that I am fighting a losing battle against myself.  The part of me that wants to eventually have the opportunity to find love with another man is putting up one h311 of a fight, but I believe I will be "happiest" when I can die to self and trust God to heal my marriage and/or teach me to see Him as sufficient.  I don't have any sense of whether I will eventually physically return to my marriage, but I can't reconcile myself to actually leaving it.

You asked about what verse I wish my husband would chase after.  First I will share the one that I cling to:
Mark 9:24 "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief".

If I could give my husband a scripture passage to chase, at least today, it would be Romans 13:8-14. 

BG

We seem to agree on interpretation of scripture about divorce.

Do I understand it correctly that you believe that you are "unbiblically" withholding sex from your husband?   

I'm interested in your thoughts either way on that.

I think you have grounds to do what you have done.  I think you have grounds to stay separated from your hubby.

If he showed true repentance over time, I might change my tune some.

FF

He's got BPDish stuff going on and in general isn't "getting it".  IMO... .to many words to get lost in your suggestion, although I suspect you would want to narrow it down to the sexual and debauchery part... .if forced to narrow it down.  Correct?

Colossians 3:19 ESV

Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.


If you decide to "agree" or "offer up" the TS I would only do so with part of his structure being pastoral care (not only... .but part).  Keep it simple.

If he were to really be convicted of and  chase after this verse... .then go to the other verses.  I would encourage his pastoral care guys to only "allow" him to focus and meditate on "his" verses.

I would encourage you to do the same.  

I like you comments about not being his Holy Spirit.  I have only really focused on that during the last year or so.  I will confront about an issue, perhaps... .perhaps one more time... .and then when I believe that I've said my part.  I'm done... .and any "convicting" will not come from my nagging.

FF

Actually, if I were to pick the portion of the passage that resonated most with me it would be verse 10 "Love does no harm to its neighbor.  Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

The companion scripture is 1 John 4:7-8 "Beloved, let us love one another.  For anyone who loves is born of God and knows God.  Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."

Those verses are probably also "too many words" and too vague.  What I want is for him to understand that it's not about obeying rules that I or others give him.  I want him to understand that "love covers a multitude of sins" and know where the source of that love can be found.

FF,
I can not find any biblical support for withholding sex from my husband.  In fact, the opposite is very clear.  I am commanded to treat my body as belonging to my husband (yes, this is a reciprocal command, but I don't think that fundamentally changes anything) and to not withhold sex except by mutual agreement, for a short time of prayer and fasting.  I have no right to try to use sex as a reward for good behavior or withhold sex when I'm not happy with my husband's behavior.  I am to submit to him in all ways, as unto God.  For me, that means that if I don't want to have sex with my husband out of love for and submission to my husband, I should do so out of love and submission to God.  I also believe that I should do so with a joyful heart, not holding onto any bitterness or feelings of being used.

So I am going against my beliefs based on the reading of scripture.  Earlier tonight I would have said I was okay with that.  After my conversation with my dad, I don't know. 

This is where I want to dance on the edge of interpreting scripture to support my views, but my most fundamental beliefs collide with what I want, and when in doubt I usually manage to let go of what I want.  It may take some time, but I generally have been able to eventually say "God is God, and I'm not".

I'm not there yet on the matter of returning to my husband and fulfilling my vows to him and God regardless of what he does to me.  Like I said before, that would/will take a level of faith and dependence on God that I believe is possible but can't imagine.  I find some comfort in knowing that even Christ prayed that "the cup be taken" from him, but I don't know if I can ultimately say "not my will but Yours".

So that's my view on the matter.

 
BG,

I think the scriptures that we are discussing and the views are "acceptable to disagree on" (I realize that others may say these are "bedrock issues".

Please don't ever hear me saying "BG is wrong", unless I specifically use those words.

I'm going to ask you some questions, hopefully that will inform me better about how you interpret scripture.


Does "submitting to your husband in all ways (things) include sin?"

Is there a view that some of your husbands sexual practices are sinful?

Does he appear repentant?

Does God want you to "win over" your husband?

Does God want you to sin or turn a blind eye to sin in order to "win over" your husband?

Does God tell you to "protect your heart"?

Enough for now... .

   

FF

I found some videos on YouTube about this subject that were very helpful. I will try to get you the links.

My husband and I are Christians and I've been thinking about separation due to years of emotional, verbal, and some physical abuse. I am not convinced there is no infidelity. Only God knows. I have no desire at this time to be involved with anyone else.

One of the statements I agree with is, "God hates divorce. But he hates abuse even more." I believe abuse is unfaithfulness in every sense of the word, whatever the cause. If my husband is going to other women to get emotional needs met, that is unfaithfulness, too. There doesn't necessarily need to be a "sexual act."

God describes love of the world as spiritual adultery to Himself.

Also, Jesus stood up for women that were oppressed. The woman at the well. Mary, when anointing his head, Judas attacked her verbally. He said, "Leave her alone. What she is doing for me is beautiful." He comforted Mary at the tomb, cared about his mother while dying on the cross. This is the love of Jesus for us. I think taking abuse may be dishonoring to His sacrifice if it is destroying our personhood. Obeying the voice of the Lord is paramount. We must please Him.

Submission is an interesting subject, but there should be a foundation of mutual submission in context as stated in Ephesians.

If I'm expected to obey the Scriptures, he is too. There is no respector of persons with God. He is called to lay down his life as Christ did for His bride, the Church.

This is something I've struggled and prayed through for years. We have been in ministry for decades. There is a deception in the body of Christ that needs to be revealed so women can be loved and cherished and set free. Many people in leadership do not understand or observe the behaviors we live with, but God sees all. And I find comfort in that. May we all receive the real love Christ has for each of us and that we are valued and treasured in His eyes and heart.