BPDFamily.com

Just thinking tonight and wondering if maybe I was worse then I thought and the uUPDExfiance was just kind of a generally crappy person herself.  Am I, and my Counselor, just projecting things onto the Ex and it really is just the depression and ADD that she is diagnosed as having?  

She never displayed so many of the horrible things I read about that so many have endured.  There was definitely the push/pull,  never taking responsibility for anything in her life that went wrong, Many failed relationships, never more than 4ish months without a relationship and always a random encounter during those 4ish months.  Occasionally she would go off on me or someone else in her life and she has been known to throw and break things but never in my presence.  About every 4 months she makes some purchase on credit that she can't afford and most times felt bad about it later.  :)efinitely projected things onto me and devalued me just before ending things both times... .and both times coincided with major negative events from her past.

Described by all as a very emotional child and adult that was raised in a home with logical cold Mother and siblings that more closely resembled Mothers demeanor.  Father was an alcoholic (so bad he developed memory issues and went broke before divorce) that attempted suicide after Mother filed for divorce when she was 16/17 and he died from the alcohol when she was 19.  Mother, family members, and friends enable and just say - "That is how she is... .she has had a hard life... she just needs to spend time alone."

Been a little over 30 days since I got the last text from her and been more than 2 months since I have held her.  Maybe I am just disgruntled because she has not reached out and everyone has told/convinced me she will.

Not really sure what I am thinking... .kinda sleepy at this point... .I can kinda see the BPD in the above description but I can also see a woman that has been through a lot and is frustrated. Add my inability to validate any of those feelings and instead just tried to fix problems along with my lack of empathy to those problems and well... .it causes doubt about what the real issue may be in my mind at times... .

Maybe it is the undiagnosed part that has me wondering.  Either way she is gone I guess.  

I

Mine was never formally diagnosed as far as I know. She told me she had bi-polar and ADD but never mentioned BPD.

It was the circular arguments and breakups over the slightest thing that drove me to google "multiple breakups crazy arguments where there is no compromise" that landed me on the term, BPD. I had no idea what it was, I thought it meant Bi-polar.

After reading enough about it I could see very obvious patterns that fit the criteria. Then, once I got to this board I read stories that were so similar you would have thought we dated the same person... .and this wasn't just one story... .it was multiple.

Keep in mind everyone is different. Your ex could also have co-morbidities or fall into other yet similar  disorders/forms of BPD such as Histrionic.

You are very aware and I applaud you for your observations. It takes two to tango and yes we were triggers for our exes. This doesn't mean we are crazy or disordered.
We are human.

When it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter if they were BPD or not. They treated us terribly and that alone should be enough to make us walk away.

It sounds like you are open to reconnecting with her. Is that correct?

Don't go off what people tell you about her returning. She may or may not. Sometimes if you are a strong person and they know you've "found them out" in regards to their disorder, they look for others who are more naieve. I know it's hard to see this at your stage of recovery from this relationship but her not returning is like wearing a badge of honor. She cannot manipulate you anymore and that's a good thing!

Many times I thought Xw did not have a disorder. She has not been officially diagnosed but we did do an assessment and the forensic psychologist diagnosed me as co dependant and very strongly suggested Xw has a BPD or NPD. Often times I look at how together Xw life is, she's excellent with money, great job, very together person but when I have to deal with her in regards to our son it all comes flowing what a horrible black hearted, devious, manipulating piece of the devil she is and than all doubts leave my mind. She is an emotionally sick person.

I am and I am not ashamed either.  2 - 8 month cycles so far.  We knew each other in high school and I graduated with her Sister.  Big issue that may or may not be BPD related, depends who you ask, is that both times she ended things because she felt like she was far from God.  The last time she said the only way she cold have a good relationship is if she was with true Christian man since they would be on the same page and he would be able to support her properly.  I will never be that man so... .   My Counselor said she just used that as a reason I would have no comeback for.  Who knows.

I will go through the same thoughts. Not so much anymore. It's not so much that I need her to have the dx. But it helps to understand her traits,personality so that I know there was nothing I could do. Only when she is ready to attack those parts of her she needs to in an attempt to learn empathy, care, sacrifice, healthy communication, healthy emotional processing, etc. then nothing will change.

As someone above mentioned. Soo many stories here where I've responded, and people have responded to me with "Our ex sounds like the same person." So yeah. I've felt what you have felt. That turns into the "what if's", could I have done better, was I the bad one? etc etc. It's a mute issue now. If she figures it out with someone else. Then good. But it wouldn't have changed with me.

I am more in doubt then ever.  Sent an email 10 days ago.  She replied today and we talked on the phone for about 1.5 hrs.  She seems so calm, cool, detached, and sure.  She says she is done... .like done,done.  Never to consider again no matter the length of time that passes.

You can see the emails here if you want:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=309533.0

I mean she was REALLY calm, cool, and detached/unemotional.  Said she has moved on and there is no way things could ever work based on the communication issues and boundary's I crossed.  Said the Religious stuff was minor compared to the other... .

I guess that is it and it is time to throw in the towel.

After the first discard, and I was begging for her back I finally got her on the phone. She was so calm, cool, and detached as well. Saying all these things like "I don't want to be in a relationship. I'm not in love with you anymore. etc, etc. Maybe I want to be single for the rest of my life!" All that stuff. The tables had definitely turned.

Well once I finally walked away she came back. Once she needed something she showed up. Remember, we are objects of use to them. You are no use to her right now. She feels good. Like mine did and does. I will never hear from her again unless she is really at the end of her rope, and she hasn't found a replacement.

But if you want to be over, and throw in the towel than that's what you have to do. I remember you saying you wouldn't accept her back without making changes that would benefit the relationship. Does it seem like she would ever make those changes? If not, then stick to your original plan. If that's what you want.

This is the 2nd break up we have had.  The 1st maybe counted but we stayed in contact by text and internet games.

She could have needed me to be there for a recent surgery but she did not.  That says something.

I don't want it to be over but reality is reality.  I think she WOULD make some of the changes based on our conversation... .maybe... .if she wanted it back.

Just need to face facts and not lie to myself though.  She is 3 hrs away for the next 2.5 years until her youngest turns 18.  That makes it very easy for her to stay detached I would assume.

Not to be so blunt, but it means nothing . My ex didn't reach out to me at all until her father lost his job, and she didn't get an income tax return back. She couldn't reach out to her parents because they said they couldn't help her after that. So she came to me. She could have come to me after she got laid off, but she didn't. If there was ever a time I thought she'd reach out, and recycle me that was it. But she didn't. When did she reach out again? When she had trouble making a decision about which new job to take, and the people she spoke to were not providing her with empathetic support.

Remember, always, this is a disorder. What is logical and makes sense to us doesn't to them. And remember the 1st commandment on this forum. Actions over words. She can promise the moon. She won't deliver.

I hope I'm not acting "higher than" here. Because we all know my struggles. I still feel pain all the time, and would love for us to go back to the old days. Acceptance is hard for me as well. We can walk that road together.

Well in this case the actions match the words.  She is done.  I am the one who reached out and broke the NC.  I guess time will tell but I am not holding my breath.

I am not sure either. Sometimes it feels like it is BPD, other times it doesn't. I just know she was weird and I got the push/pull thing with extreme behavior changes. Sometimes I think she is just a sociopath.

I've had similar thoughts but once I really analyzed things the BPD symptoms really stand out. If it's not BPD it's something similar. I'm far from perfect and have said dumb things and made mistakes but I've NEVER treated her or anyone else the way that she treated me. Leaving that person alone is a great way of holding her responsible. She may never see it but YOU will.

Hey Ox,

Hang in there. I know how you feel. I've spent a lot of time wondering about my UstbxBPDw as well. But at the end of the day, it doesn't make a spit of difference. Dx or not, her actions and patterns of behavior are key. Regardless of who initiated the split, and how some psychiatrist would label her, how did she contribute to the r/s? Is the FOG keeping you from viewing the reality of your r/s? I carry a lot of Obligation and it's hard for me to see past it.

Regarding the guilt of what you could have done differently if she had a dx; you didn't know what you didn't know. You could have made different choices, yes. But you could not "fix" her, dx or not. That responsibility starts with her.

And now, what actions can you take for yourself? What are your patterns of behavior you need to address moving forward?
--
Be well,
RP

I do agree with all the sentiments here. I also had my doubts, especially as I had no idea of BPD until my T brought it up. Then researching I realised that everything made sense. She also left me, after ten years together, with 'it's over, move on, we will never be together again, etc'. Once I detached and said goodbye, she came back strongly, I kept NC for two months then she got really needy and said I was basically the best, the love of her life and we should get together again! She still tells me that but I am not sure anymore of getting together, I did go through one recycle, then she came back again now really strong, wants to go counselling, etc... .but then she goes quiet again... .like they alll say here, actions, that's what you need, talk is cheap as they say... .

All of this feedback and personal experience just reinforces not being able to do anything. If I learned to better communicate it would have been something else that ended it. The only way it would not have ended was if she realized that a relationship takes mutual committment, and a lot of hard work/communication. She couldn't. It would have ended up eventually. Hopefully you can take some solace in all these experiences, and all the wonderful support you have in this tough time. Hang in there! You've been helping me the past couple weeks so don't ever view yourself as anything but an awesome person. 

"She never displayed so many of the horrible things I read about that so many have endured."

At one point I doubted he was BPD because he wasn't "as bad" as others I've heard who are BPD. I soon realized that no, I was right, and so was one of his therapists. He has his very brief moments of lucidity and rationality but those are VERY brief. With time I came to see that he's even worse than I thought and truly fit the description of BPD. Does that mean his pain isn't real? That he didn't endure a lot in life? Absolutely not. To say they are BPD doesn't negate whatever real abuse or issues they've endured. But we have to call a spade a spade.

Yes! Also I've never really wanted it to be true, to me that is. She has no formal diognosis there but I know when she was really suffering with her mental health she freaked out at the thought she had a PD but it all fits. She often thinks and says she's bipolar but if what I've learnt about BPD/NPD is correct then she is 100% BPD/NPD! I've got the emotional scars to bloody prove it.

Today though, I feel like the crazy one as I get pushed and pulled following a break up with her. I'm the one walking around lost in my emotions screaming for help or for her to come back to the relationship. I'm starting to feel that I'm emotionall unbalanced as I try to be her "friend". Constantly fearing further rejection when she tells me about my replacement. Whilst I'm stuck with that she's off gallivanting around without a care in the world.   

in recovery, its important to use knowledge of BPD wisely, and not to get caught up in seeing our relationships as one healthy person vs one unhealthy/broken/disordered/hopeless person.

the vast majority of our exes are undiagnosed, and would not be diagnosed with clinical BPD. the majority of our exes, however, have traits. with those presented traits, you will see a certain level of pathology within certain behaviors. you will see commonality in the stories of others (some of which is really more about us and how we react and respond, than our partners). this is useful. its one tool for understanding our relationships, their breakdown, and the aftermath, and that can help us detach.

its not useful when we over pathologize or read into every action or lack of action through the lens of "BPD".

why? specifically, because we tend to mate with our emotional equals, meaning this is really not about one healthy partner and one unhealthy partner, but two unhealthy partners caught up in a cycle of dysfunction. emotional maturity levels are not stagnant - one can raise them through work. this is as true for us as it is for most of our exes.

after we learn about BPD, which can be enormously helpful, its important to get to the big picture (which includes our role; our own emotional immaturity, dysfunctional coping methods, etc). we dont want to repeat our mistakes, and we want to have new skills to take to healthier relationships in the future.

we arent doctors or psychiatrists or therapists, or otherwise qualified to diagnose our exes, but that doesnt mean the knowledge of BPD cant be of enormous value if we use it wisely. if youre having some doubts, it probably indicates that on some level you realize it is not all as simple as blaming everything on "BPD". dig in there.

I can fully accept where my "people pleasing" turned in to Codependency. I was fighting the push/pull and figured that the more I did the better I would be loved.  I did not feel wanted at times and I tried to get that back... .which I did only to lose it again.  I also sucked at validation/empathy. 

I like to share things from my Counselor since she lets me email her. She is also the one that strongly suggested the BPD after many of our talks.  She and I go back and forth on the BPD and whether she will ever reach out for validation and/or possible recycle.  She says yes I say no.  I have the luxury of not only dealing with the possible BPD but there is also a Spiritual belief difference which adds an element to all of this. She even responded on Memorial Day!  What a good woman!  I forwarded her the email's I reference above and she replied with this:

"For someone who was in a long distance relationship, it is difficult to comprehend how Hxxx could not have had plenty of time for herself and then accused you of basically being overbearing during the brief window of time you could spend together. There are also a lot of mixed messages about how Hxxx feels about you, although at this time, she clearly wishes to cease the relationship. I also see a lot of projection going on in the email from Hope and only cursory attempts to take responsibility and/or correct any problems. I am looking forward to seeing you on Thursday. Try to focus on moving forward and building a life with new possibilities that can bring you joy."

I asked about the mixed messages and her reply was:

"As I said, Hxxx is a very confused woman about what she wants and what she can tolerate in a relationship in terms of real intimacy. This is why there are mixed messages, consistent with her fragmented self. "

My big struggle today is why in the email response I received AND 3 separate times in the following phone call, the last of which was after her saying that we needed to go permanent NC, she was very adamant about asking how my Business was going.  She seems overly concerned about the success of my Business as I was struggling for a bit.  I asked her why she even wanted to know if we were done and would no longer be communicating and she replied - "Because I love you and want good things for you".  In the email she said "I desperately want your business to survive."  Makes no sense to me why she would even care... .

i give a great deal of credence to the issue of spiritual beliefs.

spiritual beliefs are part of our value system. it was a recurring issue in your relationship. while it may sound like an excuse, i suspect thats because she felt conflicted. ive dated a few people who do not share my spiritual beliefs (my ex uBPDgf included) and it never ended well.

values are an extremely important part of compatibility.

what do you think?

This is a tough one.  She became a Christian at the age of 30.  She had moved to Indianapolis when her 1st Husband got a job there.  She was a Stay at home Mom of a 2yr old.  No friends, no family, no job.  Nothing but the child and a kinda ___ty Husband.  One day he came home from work and said that they were invited to a potluck.  Turned out it was all people from this coworkers Church.  The hard press was on at that point.  She said she went into everything hardcore and the women from the Church would stop by to help her learn, etc on a daily basis.  Instant friends and instant thing to fill her time.  She later left this Church because she realized it was very Cult like and when she did not one person from there ever talked to her again because she was going to hell.  This Church had approx. 75 members.  She started at a different Church (300 members) that she goes to now.  She has struggled with her Faith all the way back to 2012 from what I have been told and experienced.  Abusive 2nd Husband and general doubts being the reason along with a desire to have "fun" the Church frowned on.  

My experience is that she is not generally interested in her Faith until she begins to feel lost or overwhelmed.  At that point she makes a hard right in that direction for a bit but then lapses again.  My Counselor feels that the original conversion was a way to find a structure and foundation at a bad/lonely point in life.  She got instant friends, structure, rules, and a Holy Father that would always be there for her no matter what she did.  He would never leave her if she believed in him.  For her, as related to me, it is desire to be supported(pray together, bible study together, devotions together) that she wants.

We shared basically the same values about life, treating others, raising kids, politics, help the less fortunate, etc.  The only thing we didn't share was the belief in Jesus.  I personally feel she does believe in him but does not think she needs all the structure.  The lack of structure scares her though.  The faith is also a way to push me away that I have no comeback for.  She knows this, I know this, my Counselor knows this.  Faith only comes up right near the end at the "devaluation" phase as another thing that is negative about me.

Does that answer the question?  I do have many friends in marriages and relationships that share different faiths.  One couple are both active in their Faiths and one is Jewish and the other Catholic!  They get along great.  My ExFiance's Faith Strongly stipulates that you should not date or be married to an Unbeliever.  You should not really even be friends with an Unbeliever because that person can not provide much value in your life... .

I guess I wonder why she even started the relationship twice, agreeing to get married the 2nd time, knowing that I was not a believer if it was so important to her.  She never pushed it on me.

im not really surprised that she has struggled with her faith, or that she has offered it up conveniently, and im sure she has been indecisive about it. the values being at odds here are very unlikely the reason for the breakup, but it sounds like they were always an obstacle at some level.

having similar values in this regard is something ive always been committed to, in terms of the partner i choose to marry, but as i said, my ex had expressly different beliefs, and i downplayed that in my own mind, but it was an obstacle, and was always going to be. we argued about it a few times. in the beginning she was downright disrespectful toward my faith which is just in poor taste. then as we talked marriage, it became a reality. how would we raise our children, would our goals as a family be aligned, etc.

in other words, i just think its an important take away, to choose a partner whos values align with yours. our boundaries can overlap with, and inform our values. we have a good workshop on it here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0;all

I never disrespected her or it.  I actually encouraged her to get back into her woman's Bible study which she never did.  I would take her hand and participate in prayer before meals, even in restaurant(I would often have to instigate this which she always smiled when I did), I went to Church with her when invited and found a Church in my town that would work for her needs and I would go there when she asked.  I would always put money in the plate and when she finally asked me how to make a budget at the age of 44! I made sure to put a tithe line for her to use if she desired.  What I experienced was her only going to Church 2 out of every 4 weeks, no Bible study, rare prayers except for meals (always if her girls were there).  Never saw her open a Bible to read or study until the very end both times... .

I feel that 2 people of good values can totally coexist regardless of Faith as long as they respect each other and Love each other.

Side note:  Our first run of the relationship she never allowed me near the Church or Church members at first.  She finally began to introduce me to people in the neighborhood that went to the Church as her "friend" and I had to park my car around back when I slept over.  I know she was pressured about being in the relationship with the Unbeliever by the Church and her Christian Counselor.  I think this was part of the downfall also.