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So... .looking forward to my weekly visit with my P.

The last trip that my wife went on to see her sister was "governed" or "allowed" by a signed parenting agreement about who could be left alone with who... .etc etc.

Nephew has drug and alcohol conviction... .there has been violence in the home.  Bad scene, although it seems to have calmed lately... .lately being past few months.

I left town with couple teens to work on an investment house.  I wanted to take more kids with me, as there was plenty of work to do.  My wife pushed for compromise because she needed help with babysitting and needed help around the house.

So... .after several surprisingly respectful conversations we agreed on who would stay here (our home) with her and who would go with me.  We had parenting goals, specifically for our youngest son, who would now be "the man of the house" (basically no older brothers to pick on him).

I leave... .a couple hours later she leaves youngest two with her parents and drives 8 hours to be with her sister.   Took a car that is has a repair need/appointment.

She claims that I should be happy for her that she gets to spend time with her sister.

Regarding the compromise... when I told her I was "saddened and troubled by her apparent decision to disregard our compromise"... .she said "give me a break... ."

My take:  She knows that had she asked... .I would have asked intrusive questions and/or said kids need to work... .vice be on vacation.

From looking around the house... .instead of doing work... .the finished trashing the place before they left...

Sigh... .

FF

I don't agree with deception/ manipulation, but on the other hand I understand her wanting to see her sister without going through a long and complicated discussion with you. I do understand the concern about the nephew- and that you are the head of the household. But whenever restrictions are too tight - people do resort to sneaking around them.

If the wish is to spend time with her family - is there a way for her to see her sister without all the regulations? The concern is about the influence of the nephew on your kids. Is there a way to have a visit without the kids?

Yes... .she has done so before and I'm sure she will again in the future.

There is  this "thing" or "fantasy" about all the cousins getting along and if she just keeps shoving them together enough... it will happen.


Basically... .there seem to be very fond memories of her childhood in this state... as a child... .with extended family.  Likely no consequences for a while... .everyone was positive... .fun... .etc etc.

My guess is she is trying to recreate it.

FF

This just in... .apparently... .she will be home in 20 minutes so that the plans we made today don't get changed.

I'll try to post some texts later.

I think I've done a decent job of not engaging.  Basically... .I've expressed that I appreciate her coming back and we should find time to discuss after we are both rested and have a clear head.

She doesn't appear interested in that... . 

FF

I have good memories of that kind of thing too. With all the cousins together - there was some mischief. Yet I do see the importance of not setting it up for really bad behavior. In my case it was more structure and parental input at my cousins. Your wife's family is more chaotic.

But it's an understandable wish on her part. Even with her disorder- nobody likes being controlled or feeling restricted from participating in family get togethers. I see your point of view. Deception isn't good but given her two choices to do what she wanted - deception or a long complicated discussion with rules and stipulations - that's a tough choice too.

It would be different, if there were any perceptible efforts at change, reconciliation, improvement, learning from the past... .etc etc.

Her FOO doesn't do that.   They just don't.

The "operating belief" seems to be that if you just love people enough (give them what they want... .keep them from crying)... .they will turn out to be well adjusted adults.

2 of the three of my nieces and nephews are essentially ruined.  IMO.  The youngest niece appears to care about how she affects other people and seems to be a fundamentally kind person.

I was into mischief as well.  Mischief didn't involve the police or putting young children as risk... .after my father said "don't do that"

My wife ordered my son 16 or 17 at the time to load up cousins in the truck and drive them across town to my parents house.   I told them not to... .that we couldn't do that here.  (no chance I can word for word it... this many years later).

(Information:  We used to live on a farm and technically this would have been legal in that state and on some of the farm roads.  Not smart... .but legal.  From time to time we would drive around with kids in bed of truck... .on our private road... .perhaps 10mph tops.  We had discussions about what we did on our property... .versus public roads. )


At that point in our r/s... .it never occurred to me that there would be such direct going against "safety issues".  

Anyway... .I went inside or was out of sight... .my wife put them in the truck and sent them off.

I got a call from the town police after they pulled them over.  His first words to me as I pulled up was "I'm assuming that one isn't yours... ." (pointing to my oldest nephew).

He described him being the ring leader... .endangering my children and himself by hanging off side of truck... .dancing around... .at driving speeds.

Kids inside the truck were not in car seats.

A ticket was issued.  My wife blamed me for not explaining it better... said she wasn't responsible.  Also inferred that town police was lying to persecute the nephew... .sigh.

This type of incident keeps happening... .only now the cousin has actually been to jail a time or two and had a conviction in court.

No perceptible change in behavior... .parenting... .life just goes on.

That's a choice that they can make... .it's not one that I'm going to make or in any way support, as much as it is up to me, in my family.

I'm not running a popularity contest.

This are my thoughts and my attitude... .certainly not trying to argue with you Notwendy.  I can see my wife's point of view.  

I've considered it many times... .and I'm not willing to lower my standards or protect her from the consequences of her decisions.

She is home... .and finally spoke a couple words to me.  I tried a time or two to engage her in a short friendly greeting.  Complete silence for a while.

Sigh...

FF

Wow, ... .she came home.

I wonder if it is simply best at this point to not discuss it any further?

Seems like if this is her attempt to "undo her wrong" then maybe better to not "rub her nose" in it and just let her sit with her own feelings about it all, her own disappointment for making a plan to decieve, then going back home.  Cause I'm thinking any engagement will just have her make you the target of her thoughts and feelings at this point... .would only serve as a further distraction to disconnect her from herself.

What do you think?

Observation #1: "saddened and troubled by... ." Really, dude? Has pointing out to her that she broke an agreement with you... .a compromise with you... .or flagrantly violated your authority ever turned out well yet?

And if you are going to say something about it, a backhanded, passive statement like that is even more invalidating!

Observation #2: Radical Acceptance. She is who she is. Her FOO are who they are. She's going to do things like this, messing up your plan for raising your children, based on her feelings/needs. It won't be the best thing for the kids, and it will certainly inconvenience you. Her FOO will be involved often. And she pack up the kids and be half-way across the state before you have any chance to be involved. And she will continue to believe that she can "love people enough to fix them" and apply that to her FOO upon occasion.

Try not to make things worse. You know when she's so far over the line that you will involve police/lawyers/etc. She really isn't that bad, and you won the war over discipline becoming physical child abuse when she was.

My take: Making it worse means trying to badger her into a "conversation" where you prove to her that she's putting children in contact with bad influences in her FOO, and getting her to make an "agreement" [yep, that again  ] not to do it again.

Sometimes you will have to lay down the law and enforce a boundary. Other times, things won't be bad enough to reach that level.

... .and today, she's back, the kids are back, the time with a bad influence from her FOO is over... .be pragmatic. Creating/participating in conflict over something in the past which cannot be changed isn't going to undo any of it.

What can you do to make things better for your family today?

Go visit P and discuss whether or not any further discussion is wise.

My wife tossed a few texts at me this morning... .talking about all the damage I had done to the relationship... .I didn't bite.

I expressed appreciation... .well... here is the text "I appreciate you following through on our plans"

I also want to discuss with P today if I am getting the gist of her guidance on expressing my feelings.

My current understanding of my Ps guidance is that she is wanting me to express my feelings about my wife's actions more.  Succinctly... .don't drone on... .

This sort of fall under the big heading of "not saving or protecting my wife from her actions"... .I also don't need to "persecute" her (to me... that would be droning on about it)

My wife initiated the "feelings" talk and clarified her feelings... I clarified mine.

Last thought on this.  P has been talking to me about it being very different to "not take things personally" and "not stand up for your feelings" when anothers actions are repetitive, apparently willful... .etc etc.

I still shouldn't take it "personally".  I shouldn't believe my wife's goal was to upset me.  It is normal for people to be upset when plans (compromises) are unilaterally changed, especially about important matters (children... versus what we are having for dinner). 

I'm not in the business of protecting my wife from the "normal" consequences of her actions.  Otherwise, there is little incentive for her to mature.

Note... .RA informs me that she may not mature.  My job is to make that as little of my problem as possible... .and let her solve her own upset feelings.

Or... .I have misinterpreted some of what we have been working on with P.

FF

FormFlier,

I think I get what your P is saying.  It covers the discussion of feelings well, but boundaries vs "agreements" may be another topic for conversation with P.

My example of boundaries vs "agreements" is a few years old, but I still struggle to distinguish between and apply correctly. 

My BPDh used to regularly buy and sell our family vehicle(s).  When I say regularly - I mean we went through 30+ vehicles in under 20 years.  And he lost money on EVERY single one.  It was putting our family finances and relationship under constant strain because he was spending an incredible amount of time and money repairing/improving the current car and looking for the next car.  It finally got to the point where I wrote up an agreement where he promised to keep our current vehicles and not acquire any more for 3 years (which I thought a reasonable amount of time) with the idea that as my boys approached driving age project cars would add to rather than taking from family time.  I got him to agree to sign the document.  During our next round of MC (over something unrelated to the car issue), the topic of the agreement came up and I was told by our counselor that it was inappropriate for me to have made him sign an agreement.

Part of me understands that formal agreements, like what I did with my BPDh often are a form of coercion.  I wanted to take that moment when he was rational enough (worn down enough by my arguing) to agree to certain behavior being unacceptable.  Now I am starting to see that the "agreement" was an attempt at setting a boundary that I would then expect him to defend.  After all, he had "agreed" to it. 

In a way, this was linked, for me, to the topic you are discussing with your P.  I still struggle with acknowledging my "right" to express hurt, anger, and disappointment.  Those are emotions that have been used as weapons against me all my life, so I tend to resort to facts, logic, and debate.  It's really hard for me to say "Your actions hurt me and I feel like I can't trust you, therefore... .".  It feels much safer to say "We agreed that x behavior was not appropriate, therefore... .".  The second option means I don't have to be vulnerable with/defend my feelings.  It also means that I subtly distance myself from having to be the one to enforce the boundary.  It becomes the difference between placing a child in time out (me actively enforcing the consequences) vs telling the child to go sit in time out.  The first is harder, but more definitive.  The second works only if the child is really in agreement (or knows there is no point in arguing).  Otherwise, it's just another fight to get the child to do what we "agreed" they must do when they crossed boundaries.

I don't know if this counts as a hijack, but it's definitely been helpful for me to process these thoughts.  :)
BG

 |iiii I like your idea to check in with your P!

And I'm not gonna second guess what your P has in mind for you when she suggested that.

I am very much a pragmatist, and my take is that if you say something to your wife (especially when she's showing more of her 'bad' traits!), you should do it with some reasonable expectation of making things better, and at least not making things worse for sure!

So let me ask you... .what is the plausible/possible good outcome of sharing that you are upset with her actions, after it is too late to change them?

What is the 'good' outcome of sharing those feelings with her?

I'm not expecting empathy from her, 'tho perhaps I'm setting the bar too low.

I'm certainly not expecting her to make an agreement not to do this again, and stick with it long term. (She might, however, hold off doing something like this for a week or two; that's your guess, and your assessment whether it is worth it.)

I think we can both imagine the 'bad' outcomes which are possible... .

I have a lot of notes to process from my P meeting today.  

My P didn't have any particular bads in what I did yesterday... .she thought some of my texts were a bit of a "soft sell" when I should have been stronger.

Essentially, my P wants me to handle this tomorrow... perhaps at a coffee shop.

My P is suggesting that I might not understand how serious this willful deception was and she reminded me of other incidents to make her point.

Random points that I need to organize better.

That I start by pointing out how well we have been doing the past few weeks and we need to get back to that.

Willful deception to do something she knows I likely wouldn't have been for.
Putting the relationship with her sister ahead of (or above) our marriage (and to the destruction of our marriage)
When my wife visits her sister... .there are usually rocky times ahead in our marriage.
Sister interfered in my legal case and apparently encouraged my wife to do so.
This sister's nickname from childhood is "Sneaky Snake".  Her parents encouraged her.

The following advice is particular to our church and religious practices.

I'm to ask if she discussed me or our marriage, past present or future with her sister.  Regardless of the answer... .I'm to clarify that "Going forward... .I forbid it"

That your sister has created a triangle in our marriage and it needs to end.

We practiced roll play with my wife trying to distract and blame and me practicing staying on point.

"We will talk about that later, right now the issue is willful deception."

I've got some practicing to do.

P ended by reminding me that my wife will be mad... .to not get drawn into that... .my roll is to stand up for our marriage... .let my wife make her own decisions.



FF

It sounds like you're trying to set some boundaries with regards to your SIL's relationship with your wife and your family in general, but it's not quite clear how you plan on enforcing those boundaries.  And if your plan is:

":)o not cross my boundary or we will talk a second time about this!"

... .then please come up with a better plan.

Just how are you planning on enforcing your edict regarding any discussions your wife has with her sister?

I'm not and enforcer... .I'm the leader of the family.  I should speak clearly and succinctly about important matters.

OK... .here is where we are off the "normal" bpdfamily advice line.

My wife pushes for a much "harder line" religious view than I do.  She wants to be "Godly" by submitting to her husband, unless I'm asking her to sin. 

So... .technically... .

"Honey... .teach our kids from Matthew this morning... " (no sin) she would have to
"Honey... .rob that bank"  (sin) she wouldn't have to

This is my P trying to be pragmatic about letting my wife's religious views do whatever they will.

I do understand the concern that my wife may choose to "live in sin"... ."willful sin"... .and I'll have to respect that choice. 

The option I'm taking off the table is for me to in anyway "enable" her to live and decide things against her (our) chosen religious beliefs... .without consequence.

There is a clearly defined way to "confront" something like this... .  That is the general model P and I are using.

I do my part and my wife gets to decide where and how to deal with her emotions... .that's not my part.

FF

Not sure I'm following you.  Are you saying it's your job to set the rules, but completely up to your wife to choose to follow them (no sin) or not (sin)?  No consequences other than how she'll be judged by God?

It sounds a bit like the bottom line is that historically, the sister and what she finds acceptable has comprimised your kids safety.  That it would be reckless to not object to the visit.

Also sounds like your wife in the company of her sister, makes poorer decisions than on her own.

Also sounds like the two ban together and sis is like gasoline for ffw paranoia and this planted seeds of paranoia may germinate all year long.

Idk, just trying to reframe this from what was in OP, what P says is a bit minimizing, to what the reality is. Trying to grasp better here.

... .

Way I see it is sure, some people drink, and are ok.
But what if my SO has hit me when drinking but only when drinking.
The drinking is the accelerant for his lacking impulse control.

Sounds like that is what ffw sister is for her... .an accelerant.

So like, if my SO announces they are going to go douch themself in paranoia accelerant, yea, maybe a good idea to address this in some way... .vs "let it slide," it is "only" a visit to a sister.

Not sure if I am getting it tho?

Sunflower pretty much has it. 

There is nothing good there for our marriage. 

I will try to further explain the religious view later.  I am mobile at the moment.

FF

Right... pretty much right.

We each have free will. 

Now... there certainly will be "natural consequences" in our relationship of using deception and having less trust.  I won't "hide" those from my wife. 

I'm also not my wife's "Holy Spirit".  I realize bpdfamily is a secular board... .so I don't want present a lengthy Christian perspective.  My job is to lovingly confront.  If there is repentance... we move in that direction. 

If there is not... .then it's up to the Holy Spirit to "convict" a person.  Many times Christians take on the roll of Holy Spirit and become a nag.  A practical way to view Holy Spirit is a conscience.

Back to consequences.  I used to share money freely with my wife... .she had full joint access... .essentially no restrictions... .other than our agreements.

As time went on she has chosen to not honor agreements.  Not my job to convince her she should. 

She now has no access to "my" money, other than by approaching me and asking.  That is a "natural consequence of untrustworthy behavior.  Especially a pattern of such behavior with a pattern of "false repentance"

FF

Thanks for the clarification, but I am not sure I'm seeing the whole picture correctly.  It seems like there is an inconsistency in boundary enforcement.  With the money, there is clear enforcement when she crosses the boundary.  Yet when it comes to forbidding her to speak about your marriage with her sister, there's no enforcement by you and instead the consequence is how she'll be judged at the pearly gates.  I'm sure there's a nuance there between these examples with regards to a biblical marriage, but assuming I have this right, might I pose to you that this nuance is lost upon her and thus giving you problems?  Considering she has BPD, this nuance might be too difficult for her to fully grasp.

Sometimes it's best to strip away the nuance and get to the bottom line:  When you say something, do you mean it?  With the money in your example, it's obvious you do.  You back your words with action.   With the sister talk, it's not so clear.  If she speaks to her about your marriage after you forbid it and you don't take any particular action on that, maybe she thinks you only sometimes mean what you say.  So why should she respect any rule you make?

Forbidding your wife from talking to her sister about your marriage, present, future, or past is an interesting mess.

• By your wife's religion as she understands it, you have the right to command her this way. (You don't really buy this thing quite so much, but would rather use it than argue with her over it.)
• It really does sound like sis is a horrible influence, so the end result if shey obes is for the best.
• This behaves like a rule or agreement, not an enforceable boundary. That is, you couldn't stop her this time, and won't be able to stop her next time... .and you won't divorce her over it.
• So when she does it, you give her a stern talking to (like the one you have planned), and wait 'till next time you have to repeat it.

Ultimately, you will have to decide if your efforts to get her to follow this rule are worth it or not.

There is a bit of a shift here in my approach.

I am worrying far less about what she thinks and worrying far more about my analysis of a crappy relationship situation and speaking succinctly about my decisions.

My P repeated over and over that pwBPD try to get you off message.  Make the issue about something else.

Stay on message.  :)on't take bait to argue or shift.

My wife very well may not be able to get it.  She may very well get confused.  She may choose to disobey.

For me to back away from such a bedrock concept because I "don't think she will get it"... or she will "pitch a fit"... .or "lash out"... .is operating out of FOG (IMO)

Deception is poisonous to a marriage.  

There is nothing good that comes from in any way enabling a woman that was praised and given a "term of endearment" of "Sneaky Snake" as a child to in any way influence my marriage. My was does react badly to her sisters influence

For GK specifically.

There is nothing good that will come from trying to control my wife's relationship with her sister.  My wife will react badly to this.

Both are incredibly crappy options.  

Pilot analogy:
There is not always a good area for a forced landing.  That doesn't mean you stop flying the airplane.  Pick your poison... .pick your course of action... .and go for it.  

That's what I'm doing.

FF

I don't think this is about one adult, punishing and enfocing consequences on another.  Not about taking the stance of a "punitive parent" schema mode.

More like if someone is going to express behavior, attitudes not in line with marriage values... .then not validate the invalid.  Not act like it is all honky dory that someone veers away from an agreement just made... .etc, but express ones truth, ones reality, in the face of the reality that doesn't match.

I don't see this as "issuing consequences"
More like, leading with appropriate responsiveness to the situation.

The "reward" is not only at the pearly gates. 

A bit about how I read the Bible.

I believe that God designed marriage and put forth "guidance", that if followed, especially by both at the same time, will result in unbelievable happiness and satisfaction. 

I don't read much of the guidance as saying "this is the only way".  Yes... there are places in the Bible that says "thou shalt not" or other places that says "thou shall"... .ok... .I'm a plain reader... there is not much wiggle room there. 

I read the marriage guidance as guidance.  Yes... .a wife should obey her husband.  More importantly a husband should love his wife, as Christ loved the church.

I'm a plain reader... .clearly (to me) the burden of responsibility is on the husband.  I should treat the authority granted to me to "order" my wife to do something with the utmost tenderness and care.  It should be rare that this ever happens. 

Unfortunately there are many men that have abusively used this and IMO given this a bad name.  My wife's course of action makes a mockery of any "plain reading" of a Christian woman.

There are times when, out of love, the truth must be spoken.  Succinctly.

That's on me

My wife may not listen.

That's on her.

Part of Christ's love involves speaking clearly.  Another part is allowing free will and allowing consequences.  Offhand, I'm not aware of any place where Christ forced someone to follow him (boundary enforcement).  There are times where he spoke clearly... .and people rejected.

That very well may happen in my marriage.

Hope this helps.

FF

To toss in a little spiritual perspective here.  For one who does not believe, relying on God's judgement seems like a waste.  He doesn't exist, so nothing happens when you do actions that offend His Law.  However, if He does exist, then that also means that he can take action.  In fact, He doesn't just wait for "pearly gates," He can correct/punish today as well.  By FF not trying to enforce it himself, he is allowing himself to trust God to take care of the situation (FF, I recommend that you pray when your wife is disobedient and ask Him to correct the situation).

Anyway, I can see how to an unbeliever FF's approach seems empty and with no stick.

Good perspective Fian.

It's also important to avoid "triangulating" with God.

My wife tries to do this often... .Perhaps "shifting credit" is a better term.

Practically it plays out where she perceives me as doing bad things... .that's my "sinful" heart at work.  FF is bad.

God shows up and saves us or "changes my heart".  So... .since it was God doing it... .FF gets no credit.  God does.

God is good
FF is bad.

If FF makes a loving or good decision, it was because of God.

Very very very... .unhealthy view.

P was very clear to me that I shouldn't "invoke" authority.  As in "God's going to get you for deceiving".

My wife is not an idiot... .she is fairly high functioning and can sit and explain how a marriage should work, Biblical rules and all that. 

There are no issues with lack of knowledge with my wife.  So... .don't explain it any further.  Stick to the main points, be succinct. 

Let her deal with (or not) the uncomfortable feelings that come from claiming belief in one thing and acting in opposite ways.

Yes I am praying about the situation.  Yes this situation has and is testing my faith.  In many ways it is sharpening what I do believe... and what I don't believe.

FF

Hi FF, I wasn't saying you should invoke God in your discussion with her.  You pray to God to take care of the situation if she disobeys - you don't even need to tell her. 

But since you are using your husband authority to forbid her, it is up to you whether you want her to know that you will be praying to God as well.  If she knows that you are praying, it may make her more reluctant to talk with her sister about your marriage since God sees all.

 
Yep... .Fian... I understand what you mean.  That explanation wasn't directed at you... .more general.

Like many pwBPD... .as they get "closer" in a relationship... .things get odder.  Same with my wife's relationship with God.  The more ferociously she tries to "fix things" by reading and praying... .the more she sabotages.

For instance (i think i've mentioned this before)... .I'll likely never again "confess" anything to my wife and ask forgiveness.  A few times had been weird, the last time she laughed out loud, used the Lord's name in vain, and rambled on with a really wacky story about what I was "Really" confessing.

I confronted her "Biblically" about all of that and she insisted she didn't laugh... .that I had that part wrong.  No repentance or acknowledgement that using the Lords name in vain was in anyway... "wrong"

Completely weird... .

FF

I'm concerned about the idea of 'forbidding' something without any boundary enforcement. There's an implied punishment or consequence with the idea of forbidding something.
 
My husband triangulates with others, including his parents. Most recently, it has been his parents. I've expressed my discomfort with him talking to his parents without telling them the truth about what is happening. The things that he complains about are boundaries that I needed - he 'tried' to be honest, but he wasn't. I confronted, and he tried to get me off the subject. I kept bringing it back to now and his lack of honesty. He 'felt that' (not an emotion or feeling, that's a judgment). Back to the point... . 

The reality is that I can't keep him from talking to his parents or to his pastors. I also don't want to be drawn into the triangulation, so I stay away for the most part. I can express my discomfort, but it's going to be hard for him to describe anything that is close to reality because his 'feelings' need a backstory filled in, one that doesn't involve him being bad. So, I must be bad, and I pray to a 'different' God.

Hey... .please don't hear that I like this plan either.  Not all plans are "likable".

The emphasis is more on succinct... sharp... .clear communication.

More later.

FF

It's not that I don't 'like' the plan. I don't think it is a wise one and think that it could backfire on you. Without any boundary to enforce, it is just a threat; nothing is going to happen if she doesn't comply, except you can bring it up repeatedly... . 

My husband's parents are toxic as well, and they have in the past several months been turned against me as my husband complained to them about the boundaries that I have right now. They told him how to deal with me... . 

Something that is forbidden is going to be more attractive, especially if there isn't any consequences to doing the forbidden.

It's harder (perhaps) to twist around that this is ok or that is ok (justification)... .when something is flat out forbidden.

The use of that word... .which P was very specific about... .is intended to erase all doubt.

My wife very well may choose to directly... .unequivocally disobey.

My wife very well may choose to deliberately deceive again.

All of those actions have natural consequences that flow from them.

Essentially... .my wife is acting like a teenager trying to sneak around and do things with her sister, very much like they did in high school.  Except now she is in her 40s and has adult responsibilities.

I can respect her choice to behave like a petulant teenager and communicate to her in that manner

or

I can respect her choice to behave in a more adult fashion and communicate to her in that manner.

In all likelihood we'll have the conversation in the next hour or so.  Life has otherwise been crazy here for last couple days... .no real chance to have this conversation without one or both of us being "HALT"... .(thanks Notwendy)... .

This is important conversation... so I want to give it the best chance possible to be "heard".

FF

I get the idea of letting your wife's actions have natural consequences.

I get the idea of enforcing boundaries to protect yourself and your children from your wife's bad behavior.

The way I see either, those things involve taking specific actions on your part, and I'm really confused on what this is:

This seems full of not very well hidden judgements, and nothing in it is concrete enough in it for me to be able to look at a specific conversation you have with your wife and objectively say whether either of you lived up to any part of it!

Can you try again, and say what specific things you plan on doing to protect yourself and your children if she takes specific disobedient or deceptive actions regarding her sneaky snake sister?

Is there a way to forbid actions involving your children without forbidding her actions?  That is, "I forbid the children from spending time with the juvenile-delinquent-cousin-who-endangers-them" versus "I forbid you from visiting your sister."

There is a religious component to this.

She wants to be and says she is this upstanding "obedient" Christian woman

In our belief system we are both supposed to "protect" our marriage, but I have primary responsibility for that... and for "leading" my wife in spiritual matters.

It is really with that in mind that P and I designed this.  We are essentially forcing a choice...

The children issue is a separate thing.

Right now focus on our relationship and her deception with me. 

Kids will be addressed... one thing at a time.

FF

I don't support that view of Christianity. FF, I believe you've stated that you don't either; please clarify:

Does your faith/belief as a Christian tell you that you should help/make her be an "obedient" Christian woman or not?

If YES, you have very good reason to address this, and make sure she does it properly.

As I said, I believe your answer was NO, or at least not as strongly as others (like your wife) state it.

And if it isn't an important part of your faith, just let it go. Let her claim she wants this, and let her act in ways that don't live up to it. Don't point out the inconsistency. Don't make an issue of her lack of proper obedience. You've often said you pick your battles. DON'T PICK THIS ONE!

Hypocrisy is frustrating and natural to target... .but doing so seldom has good results!

My suggestion would be instead, address the issues that really do matter to you first, remembering that this is a secondary issue, and not even really your issue!

It also is a tool you can use--when it works--If bringing up this issue of obedience will help you resolve a high priority issue, GREAT! OTOH, if bringing it up makes things worse, don't do that again!

I'll write more detail later... .but... .my job as a leader is to communicate clearly... .not so much to "force" or "enforce".

There is a communications piece to all of this.

FF

Is there some kind of positive change that's supposed to come out of all this plotting and scheming and demanding obedience? I'm not seeing it.

I'm struggling to understand this.  Leaders have followers.  If your wife isn't following, then how are you a leader?  Making rules like forbidding her to talk to her sister about your marriage, and then letting her choose whether or not to follow those rules doesn't come across as leadership.  If this is how biblical marriage is supposed to work, it seems to lean heavily on good faith adherence by both parties.  You know your wife has issues with acting in good faith, so how can you expect a biblical marriage?

Now you've mentioned natural consequences to her not following.  What would those be?  Because if there are consequences to her not following the rules, then I can see where the leadership part comes in.

Is there a point where the natural consequences simply become, "We're done."?  I would think that's the ultimate natural consequence for all marriages that simply cannot get on the same page, biblical or not.

Leaders don't necessarily "let" people do other things that they don't lead them to do.  The followers my decide to do something else, many times there will be a natural and/or logical consequence from that.

If there are enough parts of a marriage that "aren't there"... .then the natural and logical consequence is that there is no more marriage.  I think we are in agreement there.


Anyway... .of course there was a bit of a twist and turn to this.

We had the conversation.  Didn't get to the part about the sister... .so... .as of now... .I've not gotten to the part of forbidding anything.

Honestly... .I pressed the pause button on the conversation... .which was fairly respectful... .because my jaw had hit the floor... .and then I tripped over it... .still looking for some teeth... .

She agrees we had an agreement... .she agrees she decided "on the spur of the moment" to go to TN.  She agrees she had to call lots of people to set that up. 

She believes I should be happy for her.

She see's no pattern of "betrayal of trust" or breaking of agreements... .although I didn't go off on the rabbit trail of how many or other details.

The basic thing is... .you aren't here... I'll do what I want... .

I've texted a bit with P... .we're going to talk soon this evening.  While I'm incredulous... .I'm oddly not ticked off... .but really have no idea at the moment where to go from here.

The big question... .why make an agreement with someone... .that doesn't keep agreements?

Can you be married to someone that doesn't keep agreements or compromises?

Sigh

FF

The part about the sister and forbidding... .wasn't really tied to this trip.  This trip was another notch in a long string of things were the sister has been toxic.  Especially when the sister starts advising my wife about how to treat me... run the house... .etc etc.

However... .I will say that my impression right now is there was no plotting or scheming.  That in all seriousness... .I left and a couple hours later... .off they went.

FF

FF, taking a step back... .

You post a lot on here with a clear undertone of trying to make things work.  Honestly, your patience and temperament (at least as conveyed online) are admirable.  Yet you are posting in the Conflicted/Deciding forum.  If you don't mind me asking, where's your head at in your decision to stay or go?  50/50?  90/10 (either way)?  99% ready to leave, but still testing that final 1% due to religious reasons?

Just curious.  You obviously owe me no answer and clearly there is no timetable when a decision "should" be made.

Answering broadly:

I've seen how divorce goes in the family... .very bad... very.  Suicide attempts... .arrests of teenagers... .

That doesn't mean I won't do it, it does mean that it needs to be tactically... and strategically planned very carefully.

So... .I'm kind of taking a two track thing.  I'm pushing as hard as I can to improve the "family" (not just the marital r/s) but I'm also positioning things so that if I decided to separate or divorce... or if she ever filed... .I would be in a much better position.

I've got of other matters to wrap up before I would be in a position of strength.

So... my answer is I am striving for the best... .and planning/positioning for the worst. 

8 kids and a lot of assets and issues in the air make this very... very complicated.

Also... .there is a personality at work here.  There are few things in life that I have failed at.  I don't plan to fail at this.

What you are seeing (me versus BPD) is what happens when you give a "can do" guy and "can't do" problem... .

FF

And... .

Just had a good conversation via phone with P. 

She's fairly happy with how the first convo went down.  My wife was confronted about the behavior... .and now the plan is to let her sleep on it.

Have a follow up tomorrow.

We did some coaching and practice on avoiding rabbit trails.  Basically... .how to specifically call out preposterous behavior... succinctly.

FF

Oh, my... .  A couple of years ago, my h wrote out an agreement about what all he was going to do to get healthy and what he agreed to as a consequence of him not following through. He signed it  (and included 'Lord have mercy' and everything, then he gave a copy to me and put it in a shared dropbox folder. It's still there, today. He hasn't done anything in that agreement, including the consequences... . 


Recently, he told me that he wrote something to his parents, but he sent me a copy of that too. He wrote something completely different. So, my issue was that he lied to me about what he wrote. I just pointed out the discrepancy in what he told me and what he wrote. That is a huge issue for me, especially if he is telling me that he is being honest with them. He tried to tell me that it was what he 'felt' - I didn't buy that excuse. I wasn't getting distracted by his words or feelings. Lots of 'help me understand' how you told me this and you wrote that - they aren't the same. He didn't like the convo.

I think maybe your issue is that she lied... . 

Here's another question: is 'disobeying' a husband a divorcable offense? I would be very surprised if it was in your church context... .

A one time lie or disobedience... .no.  A long term unrepentant pattern... .perhaps.  And... .really... .this church doesn't publish a "checklist" and they would not give a "blessing" to divorce.

The real test is whether or not church discipline gets pursued for an unbiblical divorce.  There are a usually a couple cases of that each year, however the context is usually someone that has already "given the finger" to the church and the marriage and the discipline is used to officially clean up the church rolls (remove them from membership)

Perhaps the lie is the biggest deal.  I try to be structural and separate problems.  I do rank them so I know where to "spend" energy.

I got some great coaching and practice on the phone about avoiding getting distracted when "calling her out" on bad behavior.

The big picture from my P.  "She knows she is wrong and is using what she usually does to try to transfer the uncomfortable feelings" (paraphrase).  I need to stick to my simple message and the P helped me create a line to emphasize the preposterous-nous (FF new word) of the situation.

When she is flopping about trying to get me to "explain" how this is not ok and she is right and I am wrong... .

"So (ff wife), a woman that got very angry that a father took his two adult children to lunch, when there were no specific plans to do anything else, believes the same Christian father should be "happy" when specific agreed upon plans for the spiritual growth of his children are changed, without his knowledge or consent, and those children are taken several states away, by his wife... his helper in a Christian marriage... .to a situation where she knows the Christian father disapproves of the spiritual influences... and you think that father should be happy about this?"

"Is that really what you are telling me your believe... .?"

blah blah blah yes

"That's laughable... .I'm not going to argue about this further"

then... .let the conscience stew for a few more days

FF

 

You know... .that was what happened to me when my wife cheated on me. (It was a bit weird--we did have an open marriage, but we had never agreed that it meant anybody, any time, any reason... .it had always been something where we would only be with somebody else if we had permission from the other)

But she really thought I should be happy for her, and was mad at me for not being happy for her... .and ignored the violation of trust completely.


DUDE! How long have I been telling you that?

Don't make agreements with her, because you cannot trust her to follow them. Especially long-term 'never do this again' or 'keep doing this forever' ones. She will ALWAYS blow those off when her feelings/emotions/paranoia/whatever come up. Agreements or compromises which are immediate, where you both take the agreed upon action, and nothing is left hanging for a week or a month later are much safer.


Call me a hard ass if you want... .Obviously you can, even if nobody else can. Look at the evidence: You've been married how many years now? And for quite a few of them (you indicate she got a lot worse after a natural disaster some years ago), she has consistently broken agreements.

The only marriage you have is one with somebody who doesn't keep agreements or compromises. Do you want to stay in it?

I'll respond more to GK's post later.


Last night (after our lovely talk)... .my wife was "uber happy"... .she "frolicked" with the kids.  Nothing wrong either of those things, I just find it and incredibly odd reaction  confrontation.

This morning she seemed almost inconsolable about important... .but non critical matters.

Shouldn't we hurry up and get the roof replaced. (no leaks... still adjusting insurance estimate from hail)

But your going to cash the 15k check today... .where is the money going to to... .?  (it's not cashed... .it is endorsed and mailed to mortgage company for their endorsement and deposit)

Why did you pick today to work on cleaning off your desk... .why not yesterday (didn't have time... my intuition said it was good day)

etc etc etc.

Note... .we have lots of houses and mortgages... .my wife knows and has handled these matters herself before... .she knows the check can't be cashed... .

Now... she is making breakfast and using phrases I haven't heard in years... ."Heavens to betsy... where is xyz"... ."Oh my goodness... .we'll have to do without chocolate chips today... "

Umm... .my wife hasn't spoken that way in years.

FF

Formflier, this sure is the marriage you've described over the period of time you've been a member of this forum.

Is there any way you can stop knocking yourself out over this? Could you maybe just express your hurt and disappointment after each incident of deception or verbal cruelty on your wife's part and quickly move on? (Your psychologist is surely right to help you see that your wife's behavior is willful and persistent, but you and your wife are such evenly matched combatants that it is hard--at least for me--to see you ever prevailing in struggle with her in any meaningful way.)

You've done so much to make your children safer over the past several years. I think you're doing great but wish you could be more protective of yourself in some way.

This is the rub in this particular case.  It involved my children

If my wife had done the trip alone... .it still would have shown up on my radar... .but I would be much more willing to move on with a statement of some kind... .and move on.

Suicide attempts, drug and alcohol convictions, DV and a "veneer" of Christianity to hide nastiness... .are what you get in my wife's sisters house.

My P is adamant that I don't understand the danger posed by the sister to my family and our marriage... .adamant.

I trust my P.  My P has had several individual sessions with my wife and is upfront with me that there are things wife wife said that I don't need to know (yet... .or perhaps ever).  P said it was obvious my wife was attempting to manipulate, but also revealed a lot of "family truth".

One of the other issues (with particular words) that my P wants me to use (at the appropriate time) is that FFw has created a triangle in our marriage by bringing in the sister.  This is the same as having an emotional affair.  That my wife's affections are somewhere other than with her husband.

I do understand many of the concerns raised and I would likely raise some of them myself, if I was a reader of this thread.  

FF

FF, from everything you've been saying and working on for months, I think you should trust your P--she seems really good.

Two minor things I'd like to comment on... .
The last thing I'm trying to do is downplay the danger from the sister to your family & marriage. I'm all for you taking action about that. And the question is what actions will work best.

Getting your wife be "obedient" to you in this regard is pretty much asking her to live up to an agreement. At best, it is like bailing a leaky boat.

If you can bail water out faster than it leaks in, it is helping. But don't allow yourself the illusion that you won't need to bail it out again next week, next month, next year, etc. The leak is still there.


This may be persuasive with your wife, and if you and your P think it will work, go for it.

However, I don't agree that they are the same. An emotional affair has a romantic component, and (usually) sexual tension, which isn't acted upon. (Otherwise it would be a physical affair!). I really doubt that there is any of that between your wife and her sister.

In emotional affairs, triangulation is very common. But it isn't necessary. And triangulation is also very common without an EA.

I've got no doubt wife and SIL are triangulating with you. I'm willing to buy that your wife's affections are going to her instead of you. Most importantly, I've got no doubt of how bad an influence SIL is on your wife.

... .anyhow... .I don't want to sidetrack you too badly--I do want to see your response to the earlier post.

I should have explained the emotional affair thing better.

That is in the context of our religion.

Relationship ranksing

1.  With God
2.  With spouse
3.  With children
4.  With church
5.  With extended family
6.  With "rest of the world"

If you keep priorities in this order... .lots of decisions make themselves.  If you start reversing things... .and putting children ahead of spouse... .extended family above spouse... .etc etc... .

Expect chaos to reign in your life.

I do totally understand the romantic component thing... I'm not alleging that at all.  I am alleging that my wife's "emotional connection"... ."emotional affair" with her sister is far above her connection to me.

Substitute "value" for connection and it may be more accurate.

FF

Would Gagrl's suggestion not work?

Is your psychologist on board with action that would include you forbidding your wife to see her sister?

That sounds like a fateful decision.

At the moment P was very precise.

The forbidding is focused on ANY discussion of me or our marriage... .past... present... future.

I'm supposed to "tell" her what I believe... .and then challenge her to answer it

"FF wife... I believe you guys get together and talk about me behind my back in ways that are not honoring to our marriage.  What God has put together... let no man put asunder"

blah blah blah... what does that mean you won't work and lay around all day... blah blah blah

"tell me now FF wife... .in front of God... is this true?"

blah blah why is this important

"I forbid it.  From now on you are not allowed to discuss me or our marriage, past present or future, with your sister.  I forbid it."

That's pretty much word for word what we practiced.

No threats... no explanations... .

My P has said that I should never again let her visit her sister "unsupervised"... .but we said we would cross that bridge another day.

FF

So... .obviously we'll see how it really plays out and in next session I'm very interested in "why" my P thinks this approach is worth pursuing.

I'm pretty sure it has to do with forcing a choice on my wife's image.

She is attempting to keep her image "clean" in two different and incompatible worlds.

All this "mentoring" she is getting to be an upstanding Christian woman and also wants to be liked and "included" in a circle of toxic family women (with Christian veneers), currently lead by the sister (leadership switches around based on who is black and white).

Shine enough light on this... .and things will get interesting. 

"Christian Veneer" would be walking in someone's home and see verses and "pray constantly" signs all over the place... .yet they rarely attend church are an adulteress... .live in boyfriend... I could go on...

FF

Is it because disparaging things about you and your marriage are said in the presence of your children that the psychologist is so adamant that this is unacceptable? I guess I'm not quite understanding yet . . . .

(I'm sort of under the impression that your wife says disparaging things about you in your home too.)

I should probably ask P for more details about why she sees the sister as such a threat.

Visits to the sister are always... .always... accompanied by rockin and rollin in our relationship for a while after.  Even time when my wife has had "the perfect trip" or gotten everything.

If they appear to get along... .or if they have a big blowout... .that part doesn't matter.

My guess is that the sister knows how to pour fuel on FFw paranoia... .especially regarding me.  Sister is divorced times 3... possibly even more (some of her relationships have been described in both ways... live in and marriage) failed marriages. 

In my wife's family... .we are the last marriage standing of that generation.  So... my wife's brother, sister and cousins.  I'm guessing my P see's the sister trying to take down the last one... .or something like that.

In the past few weeks... even months, the disparaging things about me have relatively died down.  However... this is part of a bigger cycle of things get good and then some sort of sabotage. 

Hope this gives some more context.

FF

Regarding the emotional affair thing, we are using different words. Yep, she's definitely going outside your religious ranking talking with her sister.

I don't know what words you use to describe that, or describe failures/violations of that... .but I wouldn't use the words 'emotional affair' in that way, as that to me, is a romantic relationship where the romantic component is hidden from others (especially your spouse), but there aren't any physical/sexual activities.

---

 |iiii Staying on this message is good. I like it.

And like most agreements you make with her or rules you hand down to her, I have every expectation that even if she agrees to it, sooner or later, she will violate it again.

|iiii

I know you have a very high respect for your psychologist, but this advice to me does seem rather strange.  It is like pouring gasoline on an already volatile situation.  I mean we all want to say such things to our spouse, but usually with a calmer head we decide that it wouldn't really help and just cause damage. 

It also seems strange that you were already making some peace of the situation and controlling your emotions, and then your psychologists says it is even worse that you think.  I recommend questioning yourself a second time and not doing it just because your psychologists tell you that you can do so.  Be careful.

Dysfunctional people use dysfunctional communication - including triangulation. As I mentioned, my husband talks regularly to his pastor and his parents about our marriage and tells them outright lies based on his 'feelings' at any given moment. Of course, they don't understand the dynamics of interacting with him, so they believe that he is telling them things that are factually accurate. He is more concerned about their perceptions of him than about me. His parents tell him to do things that have caused harm in our marriage - to get me under control. (more manipulation and guilting)


Right, they wouldn't think that divorce is something that a "Christian" should do, unless there was an affair or something like that. And they wouldn't want to give "reasons" for divorce because that might make people think it was okay... . 

For a lot of people in destructive marriages, the church can create a situation where they stay much longer than they should because they are concerned about church discipline and ostracization. Part of their journey is to examine it for themselves.


Another question: What would the consequences of her continued contact with her sister be?

Cross that bridge later... .but... .in general... .shine light on the disobedience and let her choose.

There is enough there that I won't look like a wacky crankpot for "forbidding" it...

Multiple pastors and counselors have listed
sister and sisters divorces
and
bad parental example

As primary reasons for the state of our marriage... or more particularly... .for FFw contribution to the state of our marriage.

She will either have to publicly "disobey" the rules of the church or follow them.

Note... this is not something I'm going to explain to her... .my job is to lead and protect my family with clarity... .she'll figure it out.

Much better for her to figure it out on her own... that for me to explain and threaten... etc etc.

FF

Empath,

If your hubby was faced with having to have "accurate" communications with people he has told his tales to... .or... .ceasing to tell the tales... .which do you think he would choose?

FF

Your wife reminds me of my ex-husband in some ways.  He went to church three times a week (still does as far as I know) and was very big on his image there.  It was important to him that no one there know how he behaved with me in our marriage when they weren't looking. 

When he thought I was going to go the pastor and tell the truth, he got to them first and told them if I came to them with my lies about him, they shouldn't believe it.  I found all this out after the fact. 

Basically, he played the Christian game because it benefited him somehow.  Being called out on ANYTHING (because he never admits fault and I mean never) was unthinkable to him. 

Although your wife has demonstrated some ability to see her faults at times, I think your wife does the same thing as my ex did.   She likes the IDEA of being a Christian wife, but all bets are off when she needs to paint you black to her sister or your children, throw a fit over something, etc. 
 
No one can judge her relationship with God, but just from all the information you've given here her supposed faith and beliefs hardly ever match up with her actions and behaviors.  There is a huge disconnect, just like there is a disconnect with my ex. 

So... .I am aware of my wife's salvation story as a child.  I believe it to be genuine.  I believe she is saved. 

Unfortunately... .I believe her view of God is of one to be obeyed and "feared"... and used to "get" other people... .vice a source of love and grace.  Very... .very sad.

While I certainly "fear" God I also think of him in much the same way I think of my earthly father.  Perhaps it is better to use the word respect.  Certainly God has allowed or caused... whatever... .consequences in my life... .I see them all as "restorative" or "maturing".  I think my wife see's those types of things in her life as "punishment"

I certainly will listen to my P more on how she "designed" this strategy for my wife.

It's uncanny how P will stop me... .then tell me what my wife likely said... .and how she said it... .and I'll be like... ."wow... yeah... .pretty much spot on... "

FF

We had a situation where he was given the choice. He continued to communicate with the people and tell me that he was "accurate," and when I bring up inaccuracies, he claims that they are accurate because that's what he feels. He also offered people more examples of how I'm "bad" also based on his "accurate" feelings.

The thing is that his understanding of reality is skewed by his feelings of abandonment and a need to feel like he is 'good.'