BPDFamily.com

This is a continuation of my previous topic 'I am in a position where I need to say "No, we can't do that"  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=310132.0)'

Last night was the start of some real boundary setting. I decided to start with the notion of getting a new engagement ring, something she's been asking for now for over a year.

It all started at about 11:00 at night. D3 had been asleep for a couple of hours, and I know she's a deep sleeper so she wasn't going to wake up from normal-volume activity. My uBPDw and I had been snuggling for 45 minutes or so watching a movie. We were about to turn the lights out and go to sleep when my pwBPD said "I just know you're going to do something awful like not actually get me a new diamond engagement ring like you promised."

So I said "Honey, I know we've been talking about this for a long time. I don't think it's a responsible decision to get an expensive ring like that right now." I got through about that much of it before pwBPD started interrupting me, etc. I managed to get the rest of this out, although I'm not sure how much registered: "And it seems like you already know we can't afford the ring. I know I've been discussing ways I could possibly get extra cash and use it to pay for a ring, but I don't think that's the responsible thing to do, so no, I won't be getting the engagement ring."

So something interesting happened right then. She stopped talking about the ring, and instead started saying "I wish you loved me like you used to love me. You're so angry and mean all the time. I need you to stop that. I need you to love me like you used to love me. Like you loved me at the beginning of our relationship."

This went on for almost 4 hours. At first she just got more insistent that I didn't love her the way she needed to be loved. Then she retreated into the bathroom and we talked through the closed door for about an hour. She kept saying she wanted me to "scoop her up, carry her into the bed, and make things the same as they were 18 years ago on the day I first said I loved her." I tried to remain neutral, sympathetic, saying things like "I am really sorry. I know how hard this must be. I can hear you sobbing and I would like to comfort you as best I can. Can you please take a deep breath and come out here so we can continue this discussion face to face?" Eventually, she had worked herself up to the point where she started dry heaving and gagging and she asked me to come in for that and I did. The sobbing and crying ended like a light switch when I opened the bathroom door. We moved the "conversation" back to the bed, and continued it for another 2 and a half hours. It was almost entirely a circular conversation where she said "You hate me. You speak to me harshly and disrespectfully. You don't love me the way you used to. Please love me. Please love me. Please love me." I held her, let her speak, I gave her little kisses. At one point I just wrapped myself tight around her and stayed there for what seemed like 15 minutes.

Like I said - there were no personal attacks, no name calling, no overt blaming or hurtful things. However, I really wanted to end the standoff in some way that didn't result in me giving in, and as we got toward

She entered "victim" mode. I went into "rescue" mode. She wasn't mean, she didn't call me names or label me or really do anything overtly hurtful. So I couldn't find it in myself to just say "No, I can't stay here for this. I need to leave." I also wasn't particularly tired so I didn't feel like the "I need sleep" argument would hold here, either. So I guess what I'm saying is that there was no obvious, in my face reason to just say "Look, I'm not having this conversation." That's not to say I wasn't fully prepared and ready to stand my ground on the topic of the ring, but what I'm realizing now is that I stayed engaged for over 4 hours and that gave her a 4 hour window of time to "work on me" through emotional means.

The only thing that really ended it IS me saying I'd consider alternatives. Which, again, isn't always a bad thing - a marriage should be based on compromise and considering the needs of both people, right? But right now, in our specific situation, my strong feeling is that it IS a bad thing to consider even a relatively inexpensive diamond ring. Too many bills are unpaid and too much is still at risk.

So should I have left anyway? Should I have walked away from this? It just seems mean and cruel to do that (and she would tell me that it was mean and cruel, too, but that's not the point - I felt that way anyway).

But... .did I really help anything by staying for so long?

My first reaction is no... you didn't. 

You did take a step in the right direction... .|iiii   celebrate that.

There are more steps to take.  Sometimes you will step backwards... .realize that and look and step forward.

Can we work on some canned lines to end a conversation.  Please stop thinking you can solve this...

Focus on ending the hurt... .stop the bleeding... .kick the can down the road. 

"Get me a diamond... "
stay friendly.

"Oh my... .this is important... .it's late.  I'll think about this tomorrow... .with a clearer... .and rested head."

Just end it... .

Can you try to write 5 different ways you could have ended it... .no longer than what I wrote... .?

   

Good job on taking that first step!

FF

My H and I used to have these late night circular "discussions" that went no where and if we did resolve anything we were both exhausted the next day.

Bedtime is the bewitching time for a reason. People are tired. Our MC gave us a very good rule to follow. It is to not have any kind of emotional discussion when we are HALT  Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired

It is also a key to self care, used in different counseling programs and in AA.


www.ellenharriscounseling.com/PDF/August10.pdf


Here is where you got swept into the drama- recall you are her human zaxax, what she does to calm herself down. When we are HALT, we are usually not at our best, and for someone with BPD that might mean deregulating.

So she is tired, the TV is off, the child is in bed, there are no distractions from her feelings. She is Tired, maybe anxious, worried you don't love her and needs an emotional "fix" - drama, reassurance, whatever. So she doesn't say " I feel worried you don't love me" She projects" I know you are going to do something... ."

I don't mean to present drama bait as intentionally mean. Drama is an emotional fix and this is what your wife has found works with you and so she is going to do it, and continue to do it as long as it works. You've been the rescuer/fixer and that is your bait as well.

When you hear something like this, especially when you are feeling HALT it helps to visualize this statement as yummy bait on a hook waiting for you- a hungry fish-  to bite, as usual.

Here is where you took the bait:

pwBPD said "I just know you're going to do something awful like not actually get me a new diamond engagement ring like you promised."

So I said "Honey, I know we've been talking about this for a long time. I don't think it's a responsible decision to get an expensive ring like that right now." I got through about that much of it before pwBPD started interrupting me, etc. I managed to get the rest of this out, although I'm not sure how much registered: "And it seems like you already know we can't afford the ring. I know I've been discussing ways I could possibly get extra cash and use it to pay for a ring, but I don't think that's the responsible thing to do, so no, I won't be getting the engagement ring."


So what about the next time. During the day, when neither of you are HALT, have a discussion. Say, honey, you know these discussions late at night just wear us both out and I would much rather cuddle with you and have a good nights sleep. I have been reading about an idea called HALT. It says that when we are tired, we are not at our best. I know you have some important things to talk to me about, and I really want to be at my best when we do. So, I am going to practice HALT when I am too tired to discuss things and we can then discuss them at a time when I am not tired.

This is a boundary. You're going to be in for a wild time until she gets that you are not going to do this at night.


"I just know you're going to do something awful like not actually get me a new diamond engagement ring like you promised."


Eventually you will be thinking "BAIT!"  Don't bite it!

Validate and set the boundary.

Honey, I hear that you are worried that I might do something awful. That must feel really bad to think that I would want to hurt you. Remember our talk about practicing HALT? I am really tired. I know I am not at my best to discuss this with you but I would like to talk about it tomorrow. I would like to cuddle and go to sleep now.

Reading some of the things your wife said made me wonder, yes, it is about the ring but maybe not all about the ring.

She wants you to love her like you did when you got engaged .I guess at this time you were all romantic and loving to her as well.

After years of resentment and the stress of being financially stretched, this feeling might not be as strong for you, even if you do love her.

Also, over the years that "thrill" of newly dating has to be worked at. It is hard to do this when two people are so familiar with each other and have emotional baggage.

I don't know how this would go over, but I do think it is good that you were honest about not being able to buy a ring.

But you can still  be romantic like you were 18 years ago.

I don't know how this would go over, but maybe when D3 is in bed, and it is just the two of you, you bring out a bottle of wine, some chocolate, some cheese and crackers and set a picnic on the living room floor, act all romantic, and ask her to marry you all over again.

Worth a try, and won't break the bank.

I second Notwendy's idea. 

Look up Gotman's research on partners "bidding" towards each other.

You don't control how she "interprets" those bids.  But I do think that being intentional about "building bridges toward her" is wise.

Note:  Keep buckets separate.

You can have serious discussions during the day when HALT does not apply.  Perhaps you can even argue.  Set that aside... .love your wife.  If she reciprocates... .great.  If not... .love your wife.

When you are done with that... .go to bed.

Each of these are deliberate... .thoughtful acts.

FF

This is great stuff. Thank you Notwendy

As you can imagine, we've had a few tries at MC over the years. We've heard this suggestion before. We even tried it several years back, but it's kind of like "all bets are off" kind of thing lately. Really stressful. But yeah, it was good. I'll go with this... .

So right here is the tough part, and I guess this is one place (THE place?) I've been stuck all along. Enforcing boundaries.

I could ask a relatively stupid question, and say, "But she really is in pain! And she isn't being mean or hurting me. So why not stay?" but elaborating on what I said in my original post - it's been 18 years of very similar incidents. Why on Earth would I think that suddenly, staying up until 4 in the morning is going to fix anything?

The way I see it, my task is to prepare for what I'm going to do, tonight, when the inevitable happens?

Let's be realistic, though - it's not going to be a one sentence thing then be done... .

pwBPD: "I'm anxious"
Me: "I hear that you're anxious. After all that's happened in the past few days, you must feel pretty stressed and worried. I would like to discuss this with you, but I am exhausted right now, and I need some sleep. I will set aside some time in the morning before I start my work day to discuss this. Would you like to cuddle a little more after we get under the covers?"
pwBPD: "There's no way I'm going to be able to sleep with this on my mind. It's not fair for you to leave me anxious like this"
Me: "I heard you that you're anxious, and that it will be hard for you to sleep. I'm not going to discuss this right now, but I will discuss it with you in the morning. Can I offer you a back rub or a foot rub to help you relax?"
pwBPD: "You're ignoring what I'm saying and you're hurting me even more by not engaging with me. We're going to be too busy in the morning with D3 / etc / etc. This is the only time we have to discuss it, so I need you to engage with me now!"
Me: "I really need to sleep now. I will need to go downstairs if we can't sleep together now in the bed. Are you willing... ."
pwBPD: ":)on't walk out on me! That's not fair, and it damages our relationship when you refuse to do the loving thing. Either stay and help me now or I will have to cry myself to sleep again. If I have to do that, it's going to do more irreparable harm to our relationship and I don't know how I am going to be able to talk to you in the morning or any other time. I am hurt and I am anxious because of what you've done! You need to fix this and you need to fix this now.
Me: I'm sorry. I need to get some sleep now. Hopefully we can talk about this in the morning when we're more rested. I love you
pwBPD: Great, and there you go walking out on me. Please do something different. Please do the loving thing here. Don't walk out like this. I can't believe you're doing this. Why don't you love me anymore! WHY DON'T YOU CARE! YOU'RE SO COLD! YOU'RE SO CRUEL!
  pwBPD sends a text bomb. I ignore it. Phone to silent. pwBPD starts calling. Phone off. 20-30 minutes later, pwBPD comes downstairs
pwBPD: Please end this. Please love me and be my guy and stop this coldness and cruelty. Come to bed with me and be my lover. This isn't the guy I married. You've turned into this cold, mean person. You've become your father and your mother all rolled into one. This isn't what you promised me. This isn't who you were when we met. Please, I'm begging you.
Me: Love, I told you that I needed to sleep and that I'd discuss this with you in the morning. You've come down and interrupted me sleeping and that's not OK with me. Please leave and let me sleep or else I'm going to need to leave the house and come back in the morning. I really don't want to have to do that, so please let me go back to sleep here on the sofa and we can both be here in the house tonight.
pwBPD: You have completely switched off and disconnected. There's nothing left here. WHY? Why don't you love me anymore? What is wrong with you? There is something seriously wrong with you that you could do this to me? How can you ignore me when I'm in so much pain?
Me: I need to leave the house now. I'm sorry. I will be back at 9am and we can talk then. I love you.


Now, does the above make sense? Because it's freaking me out just thinking about going through with it - maybe that's a good sign.

But I need to be sure this is the right thing before I do it.

Hey DB, Why are you doing this for four hours?  I used to have the same sort of marathon circular arguments with my BPDxW, which never resolved anything.  I suggest that you pick a limit for how long you are willing to entertain this discussion -- maybe 20 minutes or, say, 30 minutes at most -- and stick to that timeframe.  The length of your discussions is a boundary issue, as I'm sure you are aware.

LuckyJim

Great question, Lucky Jim.

I stay in these conversations for hours and hours primarily to avoid the inevitable chain of events that I describe above.

Two major parts to the above chain of events bother me more than spending 4 hours arguing.

First part is watching / knowing the pain my pwBPD is in. I'd like to help her deal with that pain, rather than turn it back on her to face it / deal with it herself. I realize this is extremely unhealthy and harmful to my pwBPD (I only recently realized how harmful it was / is / could be). And I'm willing to admit this is perhaps my primary, most urgent personal dysfunction - caretaking / rescuing impulses are a major reason I find myself where I am stuck, 18 years in.

The second part is that boundary enforcement, at least at first, would necessarily mean leaving the house and going somewhere else to spend the night. Leaving the house is an added expense, disruptive to D3, a major disruption to my job, and something I've tried really hard to avoid.

DaddyBear,
It's admirable that you want to spare your wife pain. It's the reason why you can say with all honesty that you don't want to hurt her. You know she can trust you. Now she needs to learn that.

I'd like you to think about how long the hurt would have lasted lat night if you had ended the conversation after 20 minutes. Do you think she would have stayed uncomfortable in the bathroom if you were not sitting outside the door?  Do you think she would have worked herself up to the point of gagging if you were not there to hear it?  Do you think she would have stayed awake the entire 4 hours if you weren't there to keep the conversation going?  My guess is that your loving actions prolonged rather than reduced the pain. 

Think about the way you have taught your daughter that she can trust that you will be there for her. It's not by staying with her 24/7. It's by leaving when you need to and coming back, as promised.

I think you have a general idea of how tonight may go. I would encourage you to think as each word as another wound. Minimize the words and maximize the actions. Rest in the knowledge that you love her and take those actions with as much calm confidence as you can. Think of her the way you did your daughter who wouldn't be soothed by your words, but by your demeanor and tone.

My prayers are with you.

BG

She may not be self-aware... .but she's VERY consistent in doing this. She is using her pain to manipulate you into doing things which are self-destructive "for her". Like staying awake all night. Like driving yourself to bankruptcy.

That hook gets you. Badly. She's going to keep using it on you. She probably can't stop, even if she wanted to.

Now you are starting to understand that it isn't healthy. That's actually HUGE progress. You'll do better.

Let me ask you... .do you feel better for finally telling her you can't afford the engagement ring she wants, and won't be buying it?

GK - it felt a little better at first, but the badgering and manipulation that is going on now isn't so great.

I've agreed to consider something dramatically less expensive but she's already trying to work me back up.

You are taking steps... .this is good.

I think another step should be taken quickly.

Setting boundaries around conversations.  This will help you avoid the hooks she uses.

GK is right on point... .she will not change  If if she wants to ... .it is unlikely.

This is up to you

"Babe... I know this ring is important to you.  I'm going to take time to think this through.  Let's plan a "date night" walk in two weeks so I can share my thoughts on how to budget for this."

Then... .don't discuss it until then.

Just don't... .

FF

One thing I have found with letting my BPD mother get me to give in a little ( ie a less expensive ring in your case) is that then, the pushing continues to up the ante. Better to set the boundary in the beginning, because to give in a little doesn't stop the pushing.

Buying/getting things is one way, but there are other ways too. She will make what seems like a small request- and then add other things to it. One of her demands was to include her extended family in our own family get togethers with our immediate families. Sometimes we didn't want a large group but if we extended the invitation to her, it then becomes- and "if you don't invite X, they will be upset. But then inviting X, means Y too and so on. Then, if we do invite X and Y, then she starts with what is going to happen " you have to serve this kind of wine at the meal" " you need to have this and that for them. Saying no at the get go doesn't stop the pushing- the boundary has to be repeated over and over again. I've learned that the boundary has to be set somewhere. Either I choose to include X and Y or I don't. If I do, then the meal plan has to be the boundary. Without a firm boundary, there isn't any kind of limit.

You know that a less expensive ring won't do. You may offer it in the moment to stop the pushing, but that doesn't work. Once the ring is on the table, the negotiations continue about the size, cost, style.

When my H and I got married, we didn't have money for a larger ring. I did later reset it into a different setting- but not something that was unaffordable. I have friends who have done this as well. So I do get the wish, but for any purchase, it has to be affordable. Your wife's wish isn't inappropriate, but it is disconnected from your reality.

When there is this disconnect- insisting on something that isn't connected to reality and can not be fathomed with logic, then there is emotion behind it. Logic doesn't solve the situation, because the "need" isn't logical. The logical solution to her wanting a ring is to get one you can afford. But that doesn't solve it. The feelings are based on THAT ring. Another ring won't do ( and the ring won't solve her feelings anyway). How has buying the things she wants to prove you love her worked at making her feel loved so far?

DB, you are aiming at the wrong problem.

The problem isn't anything she is talking about. The problem isn't her feelings. The problem isn't her anxiety. The problem isn't her pain.

The problem is that she is badgering you and manipulating you mercilessly.

The problem is that (even when you said no!) she still manipulated you into being badgered, guilted, attacked, for 4 @!#$!@# hours in the middle of the night.

What happened during those 4 hours where you were trying to comfort her, trying to take her pain away from her was damaging to you, damaging to her, and damaging to your marriage.

The solution is enforcing boundaries that protect you from that.

I understand that this is a tough situation. One of your choices is to accept that this is the way things work for you and to keep on doing what you are doing. So long as the money comes in one way or another, it is possible to continue this indefinitely. If you do take this route, know that you are choosing this way out of all your possible and difficult choices.

You can choose this situation with your wife- she gets the rings, the trips. You may have to choose to not buy some other things for you or your D. This may be the balance in your family. Or you can change it. I think all choices have pros and cons, desirable outcomes, and challenges. One possible outcome of this choice is that you actually do get into serious trouble and those consequences happen.

One idea might be to visit a financial adviser together. Let the adviser pull out all the financial information and discuss your options. This takes you out of the being the one to tell her what you can and can not afford. Sometimes hearing things from a neutral source makes it less emotional.

In every family there are priorities and a certain amount of money. Some families might choose to save, others to spend on certain things. Your family will choose your priorities.

The other things are problems... .to be sure.    Not all problems have to be solved right now.

In fact, it would be very wise for you to pick 1... perhaps 2 things and focus on those.

Essentially any of these issues involve you communicating... .or choosing not to communicate.  Until you gain control of when YOU choose to communicate or not, I think it unwise to spend any time on other issues.

I'm not aware of any situation or process where you regain control and your wife will tolerate this... like it... appreciate it.  She will react badly

Until you are ready to hold up under her "bad reactions".  Please don't attempt any of this.  

If she "rolls you" or "wins" or your boundary "crumbles"... .the situation will be much worse

FF

I'm trying really hard to summon the amount of courage and strength it will take to make a huge push forward. I'm on the cusp. I can feel that.

Here's the breakdown:
1. I can't afford the life I am trying to live. Financially, Emotionally, and Physically.
2. Eventually, the people, institutions, and things I have borrowed from will come after me looking to be paid back.
Financially, this means lawsuits. Emotionally, this means break down, worsening depression, losing my mind, acting and behaving like someone I hate. Physically this means exhaustion, lack of focus, loss of mental capacity.
3. Among all the possible outcomes, I can see a scenario that I couldn't see before. I could see me eventually becoming an inpatient or becoming completely dependent for a period of time on relatives, medical professionals, or someone else. This sounds extreme - and right now it's a far fetched possibility - but it's out there.


What can I do to prevent this chain of events from progressing any further?
1. Take a complete inventory of my financial, emotional, and physical life.
2. Address one thing at a time, and address it as completely as possible.
3. Repeat these steps daily / weekly

For example, item number one on the financial list: Finish the bankruptcy paperwork. Keep the process moving. Right now I'm stalled. Can't let that happen.

I know there have been a ton of good suggestions on what should be on the inventory list of "things" and I'll sort through that as a part of step 1.

Any thoughts or feedback on what I just said?

I would think it is a good idea to pause BK paperwork for a month.

Are you trying to stave off a foreclosure?  Any "immediate" catastrophe you are trying to avoid?

A BK will take an emotional toll on you.  Much better (IMO) to fix the finances (your r/s) and create settlements with your debtors.  Unsecured debt can sometimes go at 10 cents on the dollar.

The BK is not the problem.  The finances are not the problem. 

The ARE problems... .but energy spent on them will be wasted if the main problem is not addressed.

SPEND your energy wisely.  If you are not able to control communications right now.  Create a plan to get to there in a few weeks.  SPEND all of your energy on that.

Last:  How many late trade lines do you have at the moment? 

FF

FF - I have a huge mess with about 8 lines 120+ days late and about 12-15 total lines. Only one creditor has filed suit so far but I expect others any day now. Foreclosure has been avoided once by draining my 401k so I have a fresh 90 days. But I now have absolutely nothing to make any sort of lump sum settlement with.

Having said that, I totally agree that the bigger problem is the relationship dynamic. As I said in my original post - BK solves exactly none of that.

Can you keep your mortgage current and stay in the house?

Assume you stiff all the other unsecured guys out there.

In your state if they get a judgement, can the garnish wages?

I should really stay away from giving to much legal advice.  I would say that you should talk to and attorney (other than the BK attorney) to make sure that you understand what can actually happen if your creditors sue and win. 

In many states the bark is much worse than the bite. 

Many BK attorneys want a lot of BK business... .so if you ask a BK attorney... "should I file BK... " the answer is often times yes.

Perhaps some time with a fee based financial planner.

BK is a big step.  I considered it after a natural disaster and instead did some settlements.  It made sense for my particular situation. 

I have friends that have went BK.  Some were "ok" with it... .some felt traumatized because things went differently than they wanted.  You will likely loose a lot of control.  your pwBPD will flip out and blame you.

Much better that you stay in control of that... .and be "accurately" blamed for it... .rather than have the court take "her" stuff and have her blame you.

Lot's of research to be done on this... .take time to think it through.

FF

I don't know whether you will be significantly worse off should you file now, wait a month, or wait three months, at least in terms of your finances when you come out the other end.

That's a logical question, and you can get answers from a good lawyer, I'd imagine.

I can tell you one thing: Your wife will still demand that you show her you love her by spending more money than you can afford to when you come out the other side of it.

My advice is what they say on airplanes: "Put your own oxygen mask on before assisting others"

You need to take care of your own physical and emotional needs.

If you don't, worst case, you could end up with a complete breakdown, leaving your daughter with only your wife to take care of her and pay to support her. (And nothing you've written indicates that she is capable of functioning that well!)

The problem is that if you let yourself be beaten down by your wife's hours and hours of being needy, badgering, critical, etc... .you will find yourself unable to do the right thing financially, unable to get sleep, etc.

I spoke to a couple of attorneys and have done a great deal of research. There are a few questions still open, but with my income level it's likely I'll be filing under Chapter 13. There is no liquidation but the flip side is that there's very little debt that's eliminated. It's paid over a 3 to 5 year period. What I'm working through now is just the questionnaire that my chosen attorney has asked me to complete. I should get more answers once they have a chance to review my specifics. I think it's worth my while. But I can confirm that my attorney does NOT think there is any urgency to file at this time.

My pwBPD heard all this - she was at the appointment - but I don't think she absorbed most of it either. And not because she doesn't get it, but her anxiety is a 99 on a scale from 1 to 10.

So yeah, I agree completely that THE problem is Communication (FF) / Badgering (GK).

But, yeah, I just have very little confidence that I'll be able to work toward a mutually acceptable compromise here. It's going to end up being a situation where I say "I can't do that. Sorry" and things blow up and I let them.

Is that communication? Not by any definition I'm familiar with?

DaddyBear,
I'm not sure why, but lately when I read your posts I keep thinking of the kind of communication a responsible adult has with a tantrum prone child.  I keep feeling like that is what needs to happen between you and your wife.  At the same time, I know how much I fight against the idea of being "parent" to my BPDh and long for the partnership and communication that two healthy adults have.  I resist treating him like a child, because I keep hoping that he will magically finally realize that he needs to start acting like an adult.  Then I think about what it takes to "grow up" and I know that firm boundaries and learning to self regulate were keys for my boys.  Is it possible that my husband need the same "parenting"? 

So maybe I'm projecting, but I keep envisioning your wife in the role of a child.  Her "cookie before dinner" is a new engagement ring that you can't afford.  You say "No.  I understand what you want, but it's not good for you and so I'm not going to allow you to have it".  There starts the tantrum.  By the end of the tantrum, she's kept both of you up half the night and gotten you to agree to the possibility of chocolate cake before dinner.  You, exhausted, think "Well, at least I didn't give in and give her the cookie, and at least I got half the night of sleep.  For her - It's not the cookie, but it's still something that is not good.  And she's learned that certain behavior may not get her exactly what she wants, but it gets something almost as good and leaves the door open for more. 

Do you see that as the dynamic that's happening?

Now to switch perspectives - While I'm a non and your wife is BPD, I think that there are some core desires that we may share.  I admire and desire a man who is willing to stand firm in what he believes, no matter what I throw at him.  When he's standing firm, I think I can trust him.  I watch for wavering.  If he wavers, I don't know that I can trust him.  If he wavers and caves, then I KNOW I can't trust him.  If he wavers, takes time to regroup, and returns to his firm stance - I KNOW I can trust him.  I may not particularly like his stance, or him, but I have to say that I have more respect for a man who firmly holds to beliefs that are in opposition to mine than a man whose beliefs change depending on circumstances.  Worse yet, a man who says he believes one thing, but then acts against those beliefs.  Such a man can not be trusted.

So, from your wife's perspective, what camp do you fall in?  Can she trust you?  Can she respect you? 

I know that all of this is very overwhelming right now.  You are being pushed on all sides and are probably desperate for one area of your life that can be peaceful, just long enough to collect your thoughts.  I would imagine that nothing feels safe right now.  What can you do to find or create a safe space? 

I think BG's assessment of the dynamic between you and your wife is pretty much spot on. ('Tho I'd like to add that the part with your wife's perspective is written as if she realizes that this is the way it is... .and while I don't think she understands this or would acknowledge it. Doesn't make it any less true, though)


You shouldn't have any confidence.

You will NEVER find a mutually acceptable compromise with your wife.

If you provide the structure, and force her into a reasonable position, she will accept it. But she will push for something different forever.

Her anxiety (and other feelings) drive her. She will do ANYTHING to calm those feelings down. She will demand ANYTHING of you to get away from those feelings RIGHT NOW. Doesn't matter how much worse it will make her feelings longer term. Doesn't matter how much it will hurt you. Doesn't matter if it will leave her living homeless on the street with her daughter and new diamonds.

Her feelings are too consuming for her. They won't let her make a reasonable compromise.

Except that feeling DO change. So she will eventually agree to something sane when her anxiety lets go, and other feelings come up. When you see a glimpse of the woman  you love.

And feelings change. The anxiety will be back. She will throw her previous agreement/compromise out the window. Heck, she will turn it into a weapon and use it to throw you out the window instead.

---

Radical acceptance time:

You cannot treat her as an adult, as an equal, at least in two major areas of decisions:

1. Spending money.
2. When the badgering/attacking stops. (aka when the discussion stops, and whether you need to sooth her.)

You have to be the responsible adult in both these areas, looking out for her interests and your interests (and D3's interests). Note that what she demands of you often isn't even in her own best interest!

Money is 'easy'. You've created budgets, set priorities. You know those answers; your only problem with money is that you try to do it as a 'compromise' with her.

And that 'compromise' goes badly (aka is thrown out!) because she is relentlessly badgering you, wearing you down over months, years even, taking one night of sleep away from you at a time, etc.

Often I advise members to pick one boundary to enforce first, and I usually suggest verbal/emotional abuse, because if you pick another one and try to enforce it, your partner uses the verbal/emotional abuse to wear you down on the other one you chose.

In your case, you've been living with it for so long, that you don't even see it when it starts most of the time... .let me point out what goes wrong in this example of you being awoken/kept awake:

(Still good this far!)
(Not bad; perhaps slightly invalidating; I try to avoid the word "but" if at all possible. I also see clues you are trying to cave "only a little bit" to her demands... .in other words, telling her to keep pushing harder, she'll get your attention for 4 hours tonight if she keeps trying!)
Up 'till now, this was a discussion with you. She just drove it off the cliff. Yeah, you can stay belted in on the ride down to the crash if you want, but there is NO WAY you will get this thing back on the road from here.

Up 'till now, she was anxious, and you were concerned that she was anxious. That's reasonable.

Now she's telling you that you are responsible for her anxiety.

It is her feeling. You are NOT responsible for it. Even if your actions caused it (unlikely but possible).

The only feeling you are responsible for is the one you have. (Probably fear about what this night is going to turn into!)


And now you are trying to turn the steering wheel as the car flies through the air, aiming toward the road.
Surprise! The wheel doesn't do anything as you are hurtling through the air toward the ground below!
Better. You are telling her that you are about to eject from the car and open your parachute so you get down safely. You could have DONE it already, but at least you aren't trying to steer the flying car anymore.
Please tell me you do see how unfair and unreasonable this is. (Now, looking back at it, at least) It is pure emotional abuse.

The blunt truth is that she probably does need to cry herself to sleep, and should do it someplace you can't hear her. (You have your own issues; you may be crying yourself to sleep, or may be so worried you are unable to sleep yourself.
But the emotional blackmail is working. You're still trying to get her to 'compromise' on something, instead of taking action.

I LOVE the imagery of trying to steer a car after it's gone over the cliff. Hate that I do it, but love the imagery.

My counselor recently asked me if I felt like I was an emotional hostage, held hostage by my husband's emotions. I said yes, but I'm getting better at not being. I've detached a lot and let his emotions be his without trying to fix them.

Hey - thank you. This is really good stuff.

I have been trying to get the mental space to reply properly. I leave on a 5 day trip tomorrow, 3000 miles away from all this, so that could be a good opportunity.

I see two "top level" issues here:
1. My pwBPD is never going to see things the way I want her to see them
2. I've been lying for 18 years to avoid confronting item 1

As everyone has said in multiple ways through multiple posts, the only thing I can change is myself. I'm a liar every bit as much as all of your pwBPD are liars. I can't ever expect my pwBPD to trust me, even if that wasn't a core issue. I feel a ton of guilt and shame over that. I'm trying hard to stop the justifications in my head for why I've lied all this time. I think that's a first step. But I just don't know. This is going to be a really hard problem to deal with.

That's all for now. Thank you Grey Kitty, BeagleGirl, and everyone else. Your posts and what you've said is on my mind pretty constantly.

Can you expand on this.  First blush is I want to challenge you on it.

I suspect that we will discover very big differences... .

FF

Hey man, enjoy your time away from your wife for a few days. And especially enjoy getting full nights of sleep without being woken up needing to cure her anxiety / be her emotional punching bag.

Allow me to suggest you turn your phone off at night, or at least mute it / mute her!

I would second muting the phone, but if she has your D - that will be hard to do. But do try to enjoy some peace if you can.

I know it's hard. I just set a boundary with my mother and received some pitiful messages on my phone basically her telling me how much I hurt her, that I'm disowned, she'll never forgive me. It's really hard to hear this. But a few minutes later she calls a sibling and she's fine. She's projected her bad feelings and feels better. We are left with what we heard.

It may help that what your wife says in the moment is very real - in the moment she is hurting and it's hard to see that. But the moment also can pass.

Thanks guys - yeah, I have Do Not Disturb but with the ability for her to call through and have it ring. It's not great, but at least she has to think twice and do the extra step of calling. Anyway, with the time difference it's usually not that bad. I'm prepared to enforce boundaries if needed. My MIL is nearby in case of a dire emergency with D3
I'm really sorry this happened Notwendy. I can truly relate.
... .AAAAND I can relate to this, too  :)

FF - whenever DBw gets anxious or paranoid about something, I will ALWAYS tell her it's not true or it's not going to happen, even if I know for sure that is IS going to happen or it IS true. I have always been like this to some extent. I can give examples from all the way back to the beginning of the r/s if that would help.

An interesting book is "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". It isn't about BPD but just the differences in how men and women use "talking" to relate to each other.

I don't generally like stereotypes, but our culture does reinforce communication differences. It seems more acceptable for women to share their feelings than men.

So, if a woman is sharing her feelings with a man, the book says she wants to be heard and she is processing her feelings when she speaks.

It says the man's impulse is to fix them, but when he does, the woman doesn't feel heard.

I ran into this kind of thing with my H. Everyone has worries, fears, concerns, but if I spoke to him about it, he would jump to fixing and solving.

One thing to consider is your own feelings when hearing your wife's anxiety. We  feel uncomfortable hearing someone else's distress. We think we are helping them by saying something to stop it, but we are actually "rescuing" ourselves from our own discomfort hearing this. So what may appear as "helping" is actually self serving and not helping them.

The task for us is to hold on to our own feelings in the presence of the other person's feelings. Hard to do when we don't have good boundaries- what is them, what is us. But we each have our own feelings and we can not really control someone else's.

So when your wife says " I am scared because I know you won't buy me that ring" "or because you are  going to declare bankruptcy" you jump in and lie- promise the ring, say you won't- in what you think is helping her, but you are rescuing yourself from how uncomfortable it feels to hear this. You think this will stop the conversation but it doesn't- she keeps on going.

Because when you do this, she doesn't feel heard.

Honesty and validation may be the harder route to take, but you may not feel so bad about not being authentic.

So back to "I am scared because I know you won't buy me that ring" "or because you are  going to declare bankruptcy"

Saying something like " I hear this is scary for you honey and I understand how scary it is to think we don't have money for things we want and need. To be honest, I am scared too, and wondering what is a good solution"

Since this is an old pattern, it will be hard to break... .but I'm going to suggest that it is a really bad idea--because it is invalidating. Even if you aren't lying because the thing really won't happen.

"I'm scared of the monster under the bed."
"There's no monster under the bed."
Invalidation: Your fear is WRONG because the thing you fear isn't real.

I don't want to diverge off on my parents, as this will lead to the thread being split, but I want to say this as an encouragement and a warning to have boundaries. It is not advice to leave the relationship, but to maintain your own sense of reality and boundaries should you choose to stay in it.

When my mother says the things I wrote in the last post, if she really wants to hurt she brings up my father. She says he said he felt like he didn't have a daughter, as she says the same thing.

I had a great relationship with my father growing up and for decades. Or at least I thought I did. But it felt as if it was contingent on doing whatever my mother asked of me. I was basically their doormat. If I upset them, the dialogue was that they didn't have a daughter and would disown me. It was somewhat hurtful when mom said it, but when my father did, it was very hard to hear. But once they said it, they would feel fine, then forget what they said and seem to have no idea why their children avoided them.

My father kept a sense of himself and boundaries when he was younger, but once he retired, he was home with my mother 24/7. Without boundaries and with the constant giving in to her wishes and her reality, it appeared they were the same person. By this time my kids were older and my mother was trying to enlist them as her helpers and co-dependents. I had been a doormat, not standing up for myself, but when it came to my kids, that was it. My parents got angry at me.

When my father was ill, I tried to help and visit. When I did, it seemed I couldn't do enough for them- even though I would make him a nice meal, get things for him, my parents would both rage at me. It was too much for me emotionally. If I came to see Dad, I had to deal with my mother too. I finally just didn't visit. So then, they said I abandoned him. I called him almost every day, and my mother listened in on the other end of the phone. She read all my e mails. All I wanted from my father at this point was to know that he loved me, but instead, it was angry words.

My father has a daughter, a daughter who loved him and was willing to do anything to win his love- except hand my children to my mother. This was unforgivable in her eyes and my father shared her feelings.

I can't change the way my father saw things, but I hope I can change how you might see your D one day. I know that you love your wife, but please hold on to your boundaries. Please stand up for your sense of self and reality- so that you can also stand up for your relationships with the people who love you.

My next boundary with her is to not discuss what she says my father told her about me.  I have no way of validating any of it. I want to remember him as the father who loved me.

I hope this isn't seen as a hijack. I don't want to discuss parent issues- that is for the other board. I just feel that if I have the chance to help another father daughter-relationship, maybe my story will do that.

Notwendy, this was an amazing post and a perfect place to interject a "bigger picture" message. We will do another separate thread on this, maybe over on Parenting, because it deserves it. Thank you. There's so much good here.

The big picture here, the common thread, is that I'm just absolutely NOT being authentic. Not to my wife, not to myself, and not to my daughter. Posting here is the closest I can come to being authentic, and I'm considering this a practice ground for "real life." It's a lot easier to disagree with you guys when I know you'll refrain from calling me an idiot or other such name.

Getting out of the house a couple hours ago was really hard. I consciously, repeatedly lied to my wife, telling her I would absolutely not call my parents, and that when I got back I'd work really hard and get lots of bonus money and I'd buy her that less expensive engagement ring before the 4th of July. We're supposed to leave that week for her overseas residency period that's part of the masters program her mother is paying for. Anyway, I kept lying and invalidating telling her everything would be ok even when she said she knew it wouldn't be.

It's going to crash and it's going to crash hard. I just wish there was a way I could bring this all back to the ground safely.

Well... .at least you got out of the house!

I'm curious--do you think your wife believed your lies?

That's complicated.

I know for sure that she's counting on me to deliver on my promise of a large diamond ring and a destination vow renewal ceremony. She's also counting on me to not speak with my parents, because of her firm belief that they are toxic.

I think she has serious doubts about my ABILITY to deliver (which is sensible) AND my WILLINGNESS to deliver (to which she says, if you wanted to, you would find a way). Those are two separate issues to me, but to her, as I said, they're connected.

And that goes to the very heart of why she's asking for such over the top items like this ring, the previously-purchased expensive earrings, vacations, etc. My best guess at why this happens is that she sees no value in herself, she only sees value reflected from others. If I demonstrate my love and admiration for her - through expensive jewels, constant expressions of love, sitting here on this flight and constantly texting her - she exists. Otherwise, she's worth nothing. Same for this grad school program she's attending. The mere fact she was accepted to a prestigious program has given her extraordinary  external validation. And as one more example, the counselor she's seeing uses validation of her claims of being abused to help bolster her esteem - which is great in circumstances when someone is ACTUALLY being abused, but here, not so much.

Those are my thoughts. Not sure how close I am. Probably need to keep thinking about it more.

But to answer your original question - I think she really hopes it's true but she is pretty sure it's not true.

We are actually talking about the same thing: authenticity. My example was from a different perspective. I was not being authentic in my own FOO and then other relationships.

I think all relationships involve a level of cooperation and sometimes compromise. But not being authentic involves giving up a core value and in a sense abandoning yourself. It can mean adopting another persons sense of reality over our own - believing what they think or feel, instead of what we do. It means accepting their definition of our feelings, motives, who we are, not ours.

What I illustrated was a possible future with a grown child- because it's an example of what you are struggling with now. A marriage is a very important relationship- even the most important some may argue. But to me - a very sacred relationship is parent - child. Both ways- one that I don't think should be cut off except in extreme circumstances. Yet you are willing to cut your parents off even though you don't want to just because your wife wants you to. This is abandoning your core value and in addition probably hurtful to them. But you are choosing your wife's wishes over this.

You may very much want to give your wife expensive things but you know you can't afford them. Yet you go along with her version of reality over yours.

It is a challenge because the consequences can be significant. I understand the kind of anger and disappointment you can face.

Two promises: Buying a ring. You know you won't be able to deliver that... .well, maybe not. Perhaps you could still do further damage to your household financial situation, and find the credit to buy it. You might lose the house over it, but perhaps you still CAN?

Not calling your parents: You aren't willing to do this, and don't even intend to do this at all.

BTW, regarding your wife's claim that she's being abused... .

Neither of these things qualifies as abuse--I know it, and you know it.

However, lying to her like this about it is disturbingly close to abuse.

My best guess at why this happens is that she sees no value in herself, she only sees value reflected from others. If I demonstrate my love and admiration for her - through expensive jewels, constant expressions of love, sitting here on this flight and constantly texting her - she exists. Otherwise, she's worth nothing.

I think the lack of sense of self is at the bottom of this. If her sense of self is based on you buying her things, then when you don't, you in a sense, destroy her. She can perceive this as abuse.

I think this sense of being abused (victim mode) is an important idea to consider. Also if there is a belief of this, this can add meaning to when you are not able to do what she wants. My situation was a bit different (milder) but my H would interpret my not cooking dinner, ( I cooked most of the time but sometimes got busy or had an activity with the kids), not wanting sex ( ie what started this was morning sickness during pregnancy- I assumed he would see that I was nauseated) - as absolute rejection, I hated him, he was worthless. He would then set out to retaliate by rejecting me, giving me the ST or raging at me. My own FOO experience led me to buy into that reality- I believed I was to blame for his unhappiness because I didn't do what he wanted, and I easily bought into his feelings that I was a bad wife if I didn't meet his needs. See the connection?

It is a challenge to hold on to your own sense of self, who you are, your values- when you are being told otherwise- that your boundaries are abusive, that you are willingly not giving your spouse what they want because you are hateful and abusive. Just like your bank account is low, which has nothing to do with your wanting to buy your wife what she wants- sex isn't very appealing when pregnant and nauseated. Yet the interpretation- that somehow you/I did this on purpose to be abusive is based on feelings, not the actual situation and buying into that is sharing distorted thinking.

Somewhere is your bottom line. I don't know what that is- and it is different for everyone. I believe that if your wife ordered you to murder someone ( heaven forbid) you would say no way, that is wrong, no matter how upset she was. I hope that murder is so much of a core value for you that no matter how upset she is, you won't do it. My parents did get to a core value for me- my children. I wanted them to have a relationship with their grandparents and they did. They adored my father. Yet, when they got old enough to be of help to my mother, she started to enlist them as her emotional caretakers. I couldn't allow this. Yet the consequences of saying no to my mother was perceived by her as abuse.  Despite the fact that they do have a caring daughter, a "no" to them was perceived as unforgivable abuse and being disowned. This was very hurtful and something I didn't understand at the time- but it got me into counseling, and 12 step programs and on the path to being authentic.

It is an important step to be able to hold on to my own sense of self and reality when someone else thinks otherwise.

I'm having a hard time with this comment.

On the one hand I agree, but I can't quite put a name and description to the kind of abuse. Maybe gaslighting (I know you don't like that term). I don't know.

On the other hand, I know my intentions aren't evil and my intentions certainly aren't to abuse her.

I think there is a narrow definition of abuse- where someone beats their spouse or children. Ironically, abusers also do not have bad intentions and they love the person they beat. They also act in a loving manner to them. The beating part of abuse is actually part of a larger cycle- abuse, remorse, and then a honeymoon type loving phase, then the abuse happens again. It is very hard for someone to leave their abuser, because of the genuine remorse and loving side of it. They know their abuser doesn't have bad intentions and it is confusing.

Abuse fits the drama triangle. When abusive, the abuser truly is in victim mode, and lashes out believing he/she is justified. It is a projection of bad feelings. Once the feelings are out, the abuser does see the consequences, is remorseful and loving but the cycle continues until something changes. A fear of abandonment is often a part of this too- for both the abuser and the abused.

Abuse fits the addiction model with drama and strong emotions that are addictive in themselves and the up and down of these emotions.

Beyond physical abuse is emotional and verbal abuse. One might include controlling behavior in this.

When looking at my own co-dependency, I thought of myself as selfless and giving, but behind that is control- of other people's feelings. If I walked on eggshells and managed other people's distress, I was basically managing my own uncomfortable feelings at having people not be happy with me- by managing their feelings. If I was being inauthentic, I was basically protecting myself and giving them a false impression.

If your wife requests something you can not afford, or asks you to do something you have no intentions of really doing ( like not calling your parents) and you say yes, you may be temporarily reassuring her but you are also not being truthful- and she may eventually be let down. Your may believe your intentions are good- but really? Who are you rescuing with this- her or you from facing the consequences of saying no?

Abuse may be a strong word for that, but "using" may be something more understandable. Addicts may use drugs to escape their own bad feelings. Co-dependents use people- by people pleasing. But is this good for the other person? That's a hard idea to face, something I didn't like to consider when looking at my own co-dependency. So one can talk about drug abuse in this context- so abusing people and relationships to feel better can apply to co-dependents.

Wow. I really get this. Thank you Notwendy.

The first thing that struck me in what you said is that controlling behavior can be included in any definition of abuse. I agree with that. I just refused to look at what I am doing as controlling. But there's no question that it is.

The last thing that struck me are the connections between addiction and abuse. I am avoiding the addiction analogy because I believe caretaking and co dependency are a thing all on their own. But it's clear in this that codependants CAN and DO abuse their partners.

I mean it. Thank you. This is really powerful.

This was a difficult connection for me to make. The term "codependents use people" was hard to grasp. I was pretty puzzled when our MC sent me to 12 step meetings. Neither my H or I have any issues with alcohol or drugs. So while co-dependency is something I need to work on, I found myself being assigned the AA blue book, and sitting in meetings that included alcoholics and addicts. There was the "what am I doing here" feeling.

Eventually I was able to see addiction as a pattern that could be acted out with relationships, drugs, alcohol, shopping, gambling, and a number of thing and while the thing being used for the addiction might be different- and so different consequences like hangovers, or financial issues- the pattern of addiction was similar.

I eventually learned to recognize what I call an "emotional hangover"- the feeling I got after engaging in emotional drama. The next day I would feel as if I had a hangover. ( something I only experienced after turning 21 and celebrating the milestone with friends and realizing this was yukky) . You know the feeling after a circular argument or emotional blow up. The group did use the term "emotional hangover" and "emotional sobriety" and I began to understand it.

What do you think your intentions are?

To me, it looks like your intentions are to avoid conflict and hard choices as much as possible, by saying whatever you think your wife wants to hear at the moment. This doesn't solve anything, but it only procrastinates dealing with the consequences, and possibly makes those consequences worse for both of you when they finally do land.

Is that a harsh interpretation? Is it wrong?

I suppose that sadists and sociopaths who are evil and enjoy death, mayhem, and destruction exist. That said, I don't believe I've met one.

The common threat behind abuse is the need to control the other person. A person behaving abusively is acting to control the other person.

Your wife does it to you due to her mental illness. And I suspect she's trying to control you in order to save her from her anxiety and other feelings.

When you succumb to your codependence, your fears of her reactions and rages, you are at risk of trying to control her. Like when you lied knowingly to her to get out the door safely.

DaddyBear,
I know the term "abuse" is really hard to stomach.  Heck, I still struggle with it and I'm the one who has been abused.

Whether you accept the "abuse" label or not (and I think it's worth doing some reading on the subject of emotional abuse and some guided introspection) I am glad to see that you are starting to realize that what you are doing is hurtful and harmful to you, your wife, and your relationship.  Recognizing and taking responsibility are big steps forward.

Here's where your viewpoint on what you have been doing may have bigger impact.  If you see your behavior as "unhealthy" and your goal is to start using tools to cope with the situation and re/act in a more healthy manner, then a step by step approach is reasonable and advisable.  Don't try to eat the elephant all in one sitting.  :)

If, on the other hand, you see your behavior as "harmful", then your approach should be more aggressive.  First - do no harm.  That means that you don't just aim for better communication.  You STOP the harmful communication.  You STOP lying.  Not "I'm going to stop lying about this thing now, and next week I stop lying about that thing". 

Remember when I asked when you wanted your new start?  This is what I was talking about.  It's not the day that your relationship is fixed, or you get through to your wife.  It will probably be the beginning of a period of h3ll, the likes of which you have only imagined.  But what will get you through is the knowledge that you are a unwilling to continue being untrue to yourself, your wife, and your daughter.

I have a close friend whose husband tried to "ease" into confessing a 5 year affair that had left his mistress pregnant and him wanting to leave his wife and their 3 daughters.  Each new revelation was another death of the trust she thought she could have after the previous revelation.  As she would say "He was an idiot and only cared about protecting himself from my righteous anger".  My advice - don't be an idiot.

So what CAN you do?  Spend this time away from your wife learning the truth of who you are and who you want to be.  You have no hope of presenting that truth to her if you don't know it in yourself.  We can help you on some of it, but it really is a personal journey.  I think you've had your bags packed for this journey.  :)

Start with something like the ring -
Your lie - you will buy her THE ring, or something almost as good
Her lie - you are a monster and/or don't love her if you don't buy her THE ring or something better.  And do it by July 4th.
The truth - You will be a monster and acting selfishly if you give in to her tantrums and spend money you don't have on something she does not need.  You will be a man of integrity and love her most authentically if you act responsibly and care for the real needs she and your daughter have, save for the possibility of a "rainy day", and THEN save for a token that will remind her of the husband who cares for her now and is already caring for her future.

She probably wouldn't hear and acknowledge this truth the first or the hundredth time you shared it with her.  She may NEVER hear or understand it.  But YOU will.  YOU will know that you have loved her to the best of your ability.  And I trust that your daughter will know too, someday.  Bonus:  If things do get to the point where you would consider leaving the marriage, you will be able to do so knowing that you were the best husband you could be and won't be going back onto the dating market as a cowardly liar. 

I hope you know that I believe in you.  I believe are ready to face the truth head on and are strong enough to have it shape you.

I'm going to agree this is uncomfortably close to a line of abusive behavior.  I totally understand there may not have been an intent to abuse.

The point here is not to flesh out if this was... .or wasn't abuse.

The point is to learn to be "intentional" about not abusing, about not (fill in the blank... where the blank is bad r/s behavior).

Knowingly lying to pause or kick the can down the road of and argument that is going to happen is certainly BAD R/S behavior.

I've done it as well.  I used to claim lack of knowledge to avoid a conversation.  Now I "more accurately" say "I'm not comfortable discussing that right now... "

blah blah blah... .why aren't you comfortable... .you are hiding things... .blah blah... .

"I'll send you an email invite for a time that works for me to have this discussion... ."

walk out of the room and let her do her thing... .

FF

Hey everyone! I'm back ... .did you miss me? :)

So... .it's been a couple of days, and I've been pretty deep in thought... .

The first thing I came up with is: I don't think I really like myself very much. I feel like this has taken a real downward spiral over the past few years, too. A couple things came up that made this self-loathing pretty clear to me, but normally I just let this go on under the radar and deny it to anyone who asks. I don't think that's such a good idea for me to do anymore. I'll get on this.

The second thing I realized: I am completely and totally exhausted, in every sense. Physically, mentally, emotionally. I had wanted to make these 4 days away from home super productive, but most of the time I feel like I can't even wake my brain up! I feel really frustrated and defeated, and now I'll be back home in less than 24 hours, with no other opportunity to get this kind of space away for the foreseeable future.

The third thing I realized is related to another important aspect of my life - my job: Ever since I switched roles at my job about 9 months ago, I am REALLY not happy with my work life any more. This trip has really brought that to light - I had dinner with my old boss and some team members a couple nights ago, and it was great! My new boss isn't even here, and my new co-workers just can't engage on the level my old team could. It's really frustrating, but in many ways, it's the least of my current worries.

So, ok, those are the big thoughts and challenges that have been popping up. I felt like they were blocking me from thinking about the issues waiting for me at home. But as I'm writing this down, I'm realizing, duh, ok, so these probably are EXACTLY the things I needed to think about this week, to clear my mind for a fresh go at the issues at home.

---

So... .

What about this whole thing with "abuse" - leading my wife on, trying to control her emotions, portraying a rose colored completely false picture of what's really going on?

Yeah, it's bad.

If I allow myself to be completely honest, I know I have crossed the line, if not before this recent set of issues, I'm certainly there now.  I don't think I'm ready to stand up and say "Hi, my name is DaddyBear and I'm an abuser" - but I think it's time I stood up and said something like "Hi, my name is DaddyBear and I'm a co-dependent caretaker with some serious problems that are hurting and harming my wife."

To put it quite simply, I need a completely different, healthy, non-abusive way to deal with MY feelings. At the same time, I want to be completely respectful and considerate of my wife's RIGHT to feel what she feels, believe what she believes, and be whoever she is. But not let that change what *I* feel, believe, and am.

To add to the complexity of achieving the above goals, I know that the minute I reconnect with things at home, whether it's via text or phone call later tonight, or when I land back home tomorrow, the sh!$ty feelings I have will pile on exponentially.

So what do I do?

Do I keep hurting my wife while I find this new way to soothe? NO. Absolutely not.

Ok, great, that's the right answer. Got it. But... .

What do I do when the horrible, painful feelings come flooding in, and overwhelm me, and remove all capabilities of rational thought?

This is where I'm stuck.

What healthy things can I do to deal with the intense feelings that come up when I finally end the abusive, hurtful control and manipulation? All I can come up with are unhealthy ideas - drugs, alcohol, avoidance, just not ending it in the first place.

I know I need a better answer here, and I need one quick. My flight lands back home in less than 24 hours, and if I am truly going to stop hurting my wife, I can't rely on any of the old ways.

Help?

   
I, for one, am glad to see you back and did miss you.  :)

I am also proud of you.  The steps you are taking are HUGE.  It may feel like you've got more questions than you started with, and definitely more questions than answers, but don't discount the importance of getting to the RIGHT questions. 

So how do you deal with the h3ll that will break loose when you start taking action on becoming a man you can live with?

I hope that, like me, knowing that you are doing the right and loving thing will provide some level of peace and refuge from the pain.  Mantras and some physical symbol that reminds you of that can be helpful.  You will want to come up with something that you "own", but I had some Bible verses snippets that became my mantras.  One of the most powerful ones was "And such were some of you", the beginning of 1 Cor. 6:11.  I WAS an adulteress.  Past tense.  Now I was a "new creation".  Gal. 6:9 was another one that got distilled down to "If we don't give up".

There are a lot of coping tools, and you will need all of them.  One of the coping tools I now use is this site.  I hope to see you here often.  :)  I'll see if I can think of more tools, but for now just know that I'm praying for you.

BG

What can you do?

First, yes, show up here and tell us what is going on, what you are doing well, what you are struggling with, and what is driving you nuts or shredding your heart.

Second... .you are physically, mentally, and emotionally exhausted. Start with that. You'll be on an airplane. Listen when they say "put your own oxygen mask on before assisting others."

If you are going to do right by your wife and take care of her, help her... .If you are going to do right by D3 and take care of her... .you need to be strong.

That means take care of yourself FIRST. If you do that, you will have more energy and skill to apply to taking care of them.

I think you will be surprised how much strength you have... .and how good it feels to start using your strength.

1st... .follow GK advice and put on your own oxygen mask.  Self care is top priority.

2nd... .I get what you mean by your statement above... .but I think you are taking it too far.

Just because you enable someone to do xyz... .doesn't "cause" them to do it.  It's part of a dynamic.  You are responsible for your part... your wife is responsible for her part.  She is responsible for her emotions and her hurt.

My understanding of what you are doing is very... .VERY different than walking up to someone and kicking them in the shin... .

In that case... you are responsible for hurting them.  It would be your fault.

If you wife does something dysfunctional and you have a dysfunctional "response" and your wife is "hurt".  You are responsible for you part of the dysfunction... .HOWEVER... your wife has 100% control to stop the hurt.

I get it... .you do have a roll to play... .don't take on responsibility that you shouldn't.

Get a good nights sleep... .and a good breakfast... .things will look better.

FF

Hi Daddybear

I really empathise with where you are, as has been shared above you need to look after yourself first. You are asking yourself some difficult questions, I can understand that, it is exhausting and painful.  First and foremost it has taken me a long time to understand that my history of 'people pleasing' has always led me to attract and be attracted to needy people.

I had this image of myself as some kind of saintly altruistic strong person... .but I actually never rescued anyone, they lived their life as they chose to and those relationships fell apart. I was hurt, they were hurt - always their fault in my mind, if only they did what I believed was right all would have been 'peachy' -how could it be me?

Since living with a pwBPD I can now see that I am broken, not damaged beyond repair but needing an emotional and spiritual rebuild. I now see me as co-dependant, very needy, core trauma from a difficult childhood - just had the crazy illusion that my needs were met by helping others. They were not and they never can be and that leads me to some tough self questioning as well, I find myself questioning my controlling behaviours as abusive, I thought it OK to justify it in terms of helping, but who was it helping? Not them, not me.

I am (mostly) not beating myself up over this, but slowly working through the realisation that I need to change for my own sake, I can only take responsibility for my 50%. This is tough, my old thinking fights me every single day - its like being on a long journey where I have made many diversions and taken myself down blind alleys - I finally (metaphorically) find my journey has taken me to the cliff edge! I have to retrace my steps, I need to find the right road to my future and that means carefully studying the map.

This journey is painful, but if I am to stop hurting myself and others I must endure that pain.

DB- Although it is hard, I think it is wonderful that you are recognizing your feelings- which lead you to find relief in your behavior with your wife. When we focus on someone else- it takes the focus off us, and while that provides some temporary relief, it really doesn't address what we need.

You are correct that dealing with these feelings in other ways that are not emotionally healthy- drinking, drugs, gambling, are not helpful in the long run.

Actually many people who deal with alcoholism, or other addiction, work at stopping the substance- and when they stop, they are left with the feelings that cause lead them to using the substance in the first place. Then they need to work on them.

For me personally, it took walking into a 12 step co-dependency group to do the work I needed to do. I know there may be other ways to do this, but not in my area. Even counseling ( although I think it is important to do both) didn't get to these feelings as well as a 12 step group did- but one needs the whole program- a sponsor too and doing the work. Going to meetings alone doesn't do it all- but they are important too. It's not obvious at first- but the rules to share and focus on yourself- not to cross talk ( reply to another person by giving advice) are a step towards boundaries- the person speaking has to stay focused on themselves, and when listening, we have to focus on that, not giving advice. Can you see how this simple rule helps with co-dependent traits.

I know it is hard to read the posts that discuss abuse- and focus on your issues here. But that kind of honesty ( with true concern for you) is the nature of the sponsor relationship. It isn't comfortable to have a sponsor turn a mirror on you but I am grateful for that relationship. And when the bad feelings you describe seem overwhelming- what do you do? Pick up the phone, call a sponsor or another member, go to a meeting.

Growing up, I learned to not connect with other people for support. You can see how that happened. I was expected to be my mother's emotional caretaker, and my father was so focused on her. If I went to my parents for emotional support ( as kids do- maybe a spat on the playground, or a friend said something mean) they were not able to be there for me. This isn't a criticism. My mother has a mental illness, and likely, my father, who you know I thought the world of, felt like you. They did the best they could.

We talk about healing childhood issues, and the sponsor relationship begins to do that. It isn't parent- child. But it is a person who hears all your flaws, then sticks with you - along with others who have similar issues. It is this- not walking alone that is helpful. This board also does this, and so does counseling. But counseling is only once a week and most areas have more 12 step meetings than that.

This is what helped me. Others may have different experiences, but I was willing to give it a try and am glad I did.

Thank you for the support everyone. I feel like I'm heading down a very hard, very lonely road.

Something I just remembered. My pwBPD left me for someone else temporarily. Not sure I'd call it an affair although during that period we both technically committed adultry. Anyway, my pwBPD told me that her lover never made her feel less than, he didn't make her feel dumb or incapable. I never wanted to process what that meant about me - i just embraced the anger and hurt I felt about there being another lover. But I think she was telling me I was / am co dependant. She knows at some level.

I know it's not too late for me, but I wonder, maybe it's too late for the r/s? Was the r/s something that was ever going to really survive in the first place?

Big questions for the flight home I guess.

Thanks again everyone.

DB, there can be some black and white thinking in an affair. The other guy is all white, while you are the problem. The more honest truth is that the two of you ( you and the other guy) are humans- not all good, not all bad.

Affairs are easy- they don't deal with all the hard stuff of a long term relationship. They can be an escape. The other person is a blank slate, can be on their best behavior. Marriage is every day- you see the other person at their best, at their worst. You deal with real life joys and stresses together.

To compare a spouse with an affair partner is really unfair. Chances are, if there was a long term relationship with the other person, the same issues would arise. Your wife is who she is- she brings all her stuff into any relationship and so do you. Having another partner will not make all her BPD issues go away. She may be able to keep it together during an affair but not over the long run.

You keep wondering about if you are good for her, or the relationship. I don't know DB, but I don't think that is where your focus needs to be. You have said it yourself- you are emotionally drained and hurting. Before you can be good for anyone- you need to be good to you. I'd like to see your thinking lead to another direction- how to take better care of yourself- it means getting support ( counseling, 12 steps or what else is available to you) and some general self care- exercise, do something you enjoy like take a walk, visit a museum, whatever you would like.

The Dr. Phil show may not completely reflect real life. I don't know if anyone gets their problems solves in an hour, but I do like his advice. One thing he says is " You don't solve a problem between two people by bringing in a third". An affair may feel good at the moment, but it doesn't really solve the issues. But to love yourself - is a good thing because if you can do that ,and be good to you, you can then be good to others.

Is it too late for your marriage isn't a question that will help you much. It is actually two questions:

1. Can you find the strength to say "no" when you need to, and protect yourself (and D3) from her abuse with good boundary enforcement?

This is what YOU need to change if you can stay in your marriage. If you cannot do this, you won't survive the marriage, and need to end it for yourself.

And in the meantime, put your efforts into doing the best you can at this part!

2. Can your wife forgive you for the past lies, and can she handle a r/s with you when you are strong enough to say "no" to her?

That's her choice about staying in this marriage. You don't get to make it for her. Try not to lose yourself in wondering what she will do/if she can. Leave her choice to her.

And ruminating about her prior "affair" or if she will have another one isn't going to help you either. Focus your worries on things you can control--your own actions, your own words.