BPDFamily.com

So, it will be interesting to see where you guys say I should have quit... .or taken a different path.  I have my own opinion now... it will be interesting to see if I have the same one in a few days.

Here is the thing... .I got p$ssed. I knew I shouldn't be emailing... .but decided I wanted to "get some stuff off my chest"... .so I did.

Backstory:  I have one remaining property that I own jointly with her family.  Me and her Dad on the title.  :)ad only on the mortgage.  I can't wait to sell this thing and be done with them.

Current situation:  My Father has had a stroke... bad one.  Honestly, my wife has been a wonderful support for the last few weeks.  I spent the day evaluating "skilled nursing facilities" for our next step in my Father's recovery.  It is unlikely he will make a "full" recovery.  He is 80, he is a fighter and has come back from several significant health issues.  We'll be lucky to get him rehabbed enough so that he can come home in a few months, with some periodic nursing help at home.

There are other stressors as well... .but that's the big one.  I had a conversation via phone with my wife earlier and expressed to her how "emotionally exhausted" I was after going to the homes, interviewing therapists and doctors.  She was very supportive on the phone.

Then... .the emails...

I try to be friendly and "healthy" and at some point decided I had enough...


Get some popcorn and take a peek into my life...  

 
 
 
Initial email
 

 
My  response
 

Her response to me
 
 
My response to her…
 

Her next response
 

Then another from her


 
My response to her


Her response to me
 
 
My response to her... .I’ve had it... .tools tossed over... .I’m expressing myself.
 
 
Her response to me
 

My response to her... again... .tools tossed aside


Her response to me
 
 

Kinda feel like the moment it was clear she was triangulating... .there could be a personal boundary by you on not engaging in triangulation... .
"Oh, if that is how he feels, sounds important, I look forward to chatting with him on it when he brings it up."  (Just silently omitting her from the equation)
Ok, that sounds slightly snarky.  But maybe it can be fixed to sound more kind.
The point I think is not even validate any part of her thinking it is even ok that she triangulate... .by speaking for another person.

Or sometimes... .treat folks as you think they should behave...
"I trust your dad is a big boy and will come to me about anything bothering him."  Then drop it... .or redirect responsibility back once more where it goes, claiming the person to be capable and all.
Ok, but not said snarky again.

Sounds like she got the message,  yes?

If you could step back from this exchange and another member here posted this,  what would be your input?

Could it be that she was genuinely concerned for her parents and just wanted to be sure payment arrangements had been made?  Why not just answer her question? Why not validate her feelings?  I find your response to her dismissive. She may not be involved in this business deal but he is still her father and you are still her husband so she does have some interest here.  Was your response because you were anticipating interference? Triangulation?

Why not say something like... .I know your worried about your dad but he and I have talked and have worked out a schedule that we both agree will work... .or something along those lines.

Panda39

So... .like many of us on here... .nuance and details matter and the posts get long.  I'll add some more.

Somewhere between $15 and $20k of "early profits" (euphemism for my wife's family wants money now... usually to bail out my wife's sister from her continuing saga) have been taken... .with me saying no and given to her family.

Each time there has been "reconciliation" and "repentance" and "never again" to include some written "deals".  The last time I moved direct deposits and "locked away" any money that is "mine", comes into household in my name, so that my wife has no access to it.

So... .succinctly... .money has been an issue.  And... to be frank... .if there was true need I would happily have given the money.  Imagine most of the crazy BPDish FOO money stories you've heard on here... .and that's pretty much what they do.  It's someone else's fault that they spend it... .I kid you not... they really express things like that.

The issue of "direct communication" and communication with her family is well trodden ground, although it's been several months since it came up.

My wife should be worried about her parents finances although her "fix" is to take some action to "enable" vice anything "healthy".  Well trodden ground.

So... my attitude and plan is to get the house sold, money split up and have some sort of financial settlement paper with them saying this is it and no further obligations will be made or will be valid, unless signed and notarized by all parties.

They keep "inventing" deals that have been made... .all of which get money to them.

I could go on.  Perhaps a long-winded way of answering the question... .why not just answer the question and validate.

I did answer it... .which was I haven't given it any thought, since I asked... .he gave input and that wasn't a concern he raised.  Just like I haven't figured out how her father is going to (insert another issue he hasn't brought up).

Validating.  Well... .I sort of thought there would be some validating the invalid there.  I generally do better with far less words.  So i tried to keep it short...

Likely should stop for now... .I think I've been rambling.

FF

Sunflower,

I really like the way you come up with this.  Maybe my "snark meter" is off... .but I don't take it that way.

I'm a fan of direct communication... perhaps adding

"I haven't given this issue any thought so there is no plan."

FF

Oh I am more rested... . 
How about... .
"This is the first I am hearing about this!  Can't wait to discuss when he brings it up, thanks for getting info to me!"

Her: so you going to tell me a plan, how you're going to fix this?

"My plan is to keep this simple, and easy and trust your dad will effectively communicate and when he does, we can work together about it."

Maybe it is just me but I expect grown adults to confront me as grown adults... .especially one engaged in a business deal with me.  Also could be dad really doesn't think as he is being portrayed, aka... .nothing good likely would come from getting and doing conflict resolution through her to him, especially when you don't know facts of what he thinks.  Imo, that is some crazy making stuff to even go down that rabbit hole in any way.  And certainly an attempt at her to put dad into victim mode, her as rescuer, u villian.  Imo, step one is: get off that triangle!

There was a chart around here on that... .
How to respond to attempts at drama triangle.
Had a long list of non triangle language to use instead.  I think it was called empowering statements. So like saying you trust her dad to act like an adult, is an empowering statement for the situation.

I need to keep a potted (and well rested) Sunflower with me at all times.  |iiii

FF wife,

Since this is the first I'm hearing of this, my plan is to wait until your Dad raises this with me directly. 

We are in communication and he has raised other matters with me.  I'll trust him to raise the mortgage issue with me, when he feels the need to do so.

Love,

FF

FF-

Bravo! I applaud your restraint and approve all your messages. (as if you need my approval  )

Well done. |iiii

FF, don't beat yourself up... .sometimes we just get tired of it all.

You can't be the perfect communicator all the time.

That being said, my DH found with his ex (the uNPD/BPD) that she often responded to a hard line drawn in the sand on money issues (of the "You need to stop this now" or "this is not your business, so stay out of it" mode).  Very different from the topics that caused her extinction bursts.

It's a circular argument, and you pushed her out of it. Not the worst outcome I've seen!

In perfect 20/20 hindsight, I can see some JADEing in your initial message. Shorter is better, to give her fewer targets. How about... .

Her: FF, what is your plan for paying the mortgage on (never never land) property until it sells? Etc... .

You: I'm discussing that with your dad now.

The end?

 |iiii. ooh, flourdust made it even shorter/simplier!

Had another thought pop in my head... .
What about a practice of "declaring one's boundaries"
For ex: "I find that when there is an issue, it is best to deal directly with the person."

This could also fit under a heading of being a good role model leading the family, cause you are teaching her why you are redirecting the situation vs simply redirecting.  (not saying she will learn it, idk about that, but it is about u doing ur role regardless)

I am sorry about your father, FF. I know this is tough.

Is there a reason why you didn't just answer your wife's question directly? I have to admit, your responses would drive me crazy if I asked a question. All she wanted to know was- are you paying this bill?  Yes, or no, and if no, who is.

This is the conversation:

Quote
FF, what is your plan for paying the mortgage on (never never land) property until it sells?

My parents are on a fixed income. My dad paid the last months mortgage that was due on this property. It is his name on the mortgage, and his credit that takes a hit if the payment is late or not paid.  Another payment is now due.

Please let me know what your plan is. FFw (uses entire name)
 

 
My  response
 
Quote
Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
 
My preference is for communication to be as "direct" as possible.  Far less chance of miscommunication.
 
I'm am in direct communication with your Father.  I've updated him on the estimated schedule and asked for his input, which he has provided.
 
I'll trust that he will raise any issues affecting Oak Hill directly with me.
 
Love,
 
FF
 

Her response to me
 
 
Quote
Does 'direct communication' mean you do not answer your wife's question?



To be frank, you didn't answer her question. You said you had spoken to her father- but not about how it will be paid or what the plan is in any more detail. She wants to know.


So she got upset.

One possible response could be to just answer the question.
.
" I spoke to your father. We agreed that this is how it will be paid... ."

That would have ended it. Perhaps there was an answer she didn't like. Maybe her dad is paying it and she wouldn't be happy about it. Maybe you are paying it. But she asked- and she wants to know.

When someone doesn't answer a question like this, it appears cagey- like they are avoiding the response. Maybe you don't want to tell her because you think she would be upset- but this kind of answer is also upsetting. It also seems controlling- your father and I have a plan but you are not in on it.

Just my response to this, but it takes two to have a circular argument and to involve drama.

FF, I haven't followed this story, However, my reaction is the same as Panda39's. The mortgage is due, there needs to be a plan on who is paying it until there is a renter - its a legitimate question.

Her: FF, what is your plan for paying the mortgage on (never never land) property until it sells? My parents are on a fixed income. My dad paid the last months mortgage that was due on this property. It is his name on the mortgage, and his credit that takes a hit if the payment is late or not paid.  Another payment is now due. Please let me know what your plan is. FFw (uses entire name)

You:

       (https://49.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltla53JXbd1qedb1to1_500.gif)


 :)

Why not say:

I will pay it
He said he would pay it,
I'll call your dad tonight and sort this out, I don't know yet. I understand your concern.
I'll get back tomorrow.
Your Dad has not raised this. If he is concerned, please have him ask me directly. I will mention it next time he and I talk.

I always ask, does my response pass the stranger to stranger test - if not, it might need redoing.

That exchange was cringeworthy to read.  I agree with Skip's take (and others' on your part, FF.  And your wife's final email/text about overlooking all of this and forgiving you... .comes across as very condescending.  My BPDxw and I have better exchanges than that... .well, more often than not.  To be fair, I did have to work on my part in them to make them better so it's no surprise FF and others would need to do the same.

Do you have an answer for yourself that you will share with us?

As you said, your wife isn't directly involved, not being on the either title or the mortgage. You and her dad are on the title. So you are directly involved, and she isn't. You can avoid answering her... .but I'm guessing you have some idea how much of your own money you are willing to put into this.

What (if anything) will you do about next month's mortgage payment?

FF, I will take this out of the BPD sphere altogether. You do have some PTSD from the armed forces. My H grew up in a military family and I suspect his father had some PTSD from the war. I think my father did too. This is a common thing in military families where war and trauma has been an aspect.

For some reason, direct questioning is perceived as some sort of attack or attempt to control. I don't know why, but a direct question seems to be a trigger. Could it have been the way soldiers were spoken to? Or the fact that if they did one thing wrong they would be in trouble- like not stand up straight enough- something like that? It would make sense to be triggered by direct questions if they are perceived as commands.

So the counter to feeling attacked is to dodge the question. It puts the person back in control. Lets the other person know that their tactics don't work. It is a self protective mechanism. It is defensive.

But protect against what? This isn't an attack. It is a question. It just may feel like an attack.

I find this frustrating. I am a direct person. If I ask a question, I just want the answer, not some kind of circular stuff. Just tell me the answer for goodness sake.

If this question felt like something you had to be defensive about- this is your trigger, something you need to work on. The skills you learned in the armed forces are vital. The rest of us owe our lives to men and women like you who made such huge sacrifices for us. But they are not helpful in a marriage. You and your wife are on the same team. There is nothing to defend in that question. She wants the truth. Maybe the truth is hard- maybe you don't have the money right now. Maybe you need to lean on her dad. Maybe you are so distracted by your father it slipped your mind. You are human and your wife needs a human husband- one who may make a mistake but who loves her. She asked for the truth, and you can give her that.  

The thing is it didn't appear to me that she was asking the question on anyone's behalf, she seemed to be asking for information from you and that does seem to me to be "direct communication".


That is not an answer to her question... .that did not tell her how or when the mortgage was going to be paid.



What was invalid about her question?  I don't see concern for her parents, as well as concern for your own financial situation as invalid.

I have a different take on this (also a DH who is a former Army officer in both infantry and intelligence).

One of the issues and stresses and triggers in FF's marriage has been finances, and specifically, monies between FF wife's father and FF. She has diverted joint funds to her father in violation of family financial agreements.

I see FF running his business as he sees fit. This is his investment and his property management business. Not her business. The family financials have been cleanly divided due to former problems.

In the military, there are security clearances and "need to know." So yes, there is a background here for FF tied to the military.

My DH is now a financial advisor. He strongly advises "yours, mine and ours" financial arrangements. This is a "his," not an "ours."

However, methinks that when FF gets out of this investment with his FIL, it will be a cold day in Hell before he enters another such arrangement!

I think this is part of FF's way of dealing with his wife.  Direct "No" answers just encourage drama.  So he often delays those answers betting that she won't bring it up again later.  It is a way to keep the tension down in their relationship.

Way I see it is that we all have choices.  Ffw is making hers.  When her dad/if her dad expressed comcerns over financial matters, she had options.  One option could have been togive him the phone number of a financial advisor, see how he can sort out some issuees he is having or prevent loss.  Another option could have been to tell dad, you make some good points, how about you bring them up with FF and see what you two can work out?  She could have offered practical suggestions... .sell the place, find a way to use it to generate income, help present some pragmatic ideas that may be relevant and appropriate to the situation.  (Idk what would be pragmatic for this). She could have turned to an aunt, and asked if the aunt could help loan monies for dad/the property, etc.

Not saying she should have done anything at all... .
I feel that she is inserting herself in a business issue that is better left without her unsolicited help, until someone asks for her ideas... .or she simply offers some resourcefulness in some way.

She is not offering anyone solutions as far as I have heard.

Way I see it, drama triangle is way relevant here. 
Seeing Ffw dad as a victim, well, is a triangle approach.
As is seeing ffw as a victim of FF also a triangle approach, and also drama.

Again, I don't see FFw asking her question on behalf of her father she did not mention him.  She was not offering opinions or solutions she seems to just want to know what's going on.  It involves her father, her husband and the family's finances the question to me is a valid one.

It seems like there is anticipation of FFw's behavior, by her asking the question and yes she might jump on the triangle, or have an opinion, or an idea or do nothing... .there is an assumption about where she was going with the question.  She might just want to know what's going on.  Now if she took the information given to her and jumped on the triangle then action might be needed.  But instead she was shutdown and shutout for simply asking a question... .invalidated.

Panda39

Personally thinking the value of such a site is having the input of different perspectives.  ... .Pretty cool stuff. :)

There is drama triangle here- and the wife and her family seem to be a barrel of dysfunction. I too bet that this is the last financial deal FF ever wants to be involved in with them. I also truly get the resentment over FFW funneling money into that family.

Money and Sex are two big issues in any relationship. No two people come together with similar ideas of how to deal with money. Coming up with a mutually agreed upon plan requires communication, honesty, cooperation. Both money and sex are emotionally laden issues for people- so emotional regulation is also needed. It isn't surprising that these topics are so difficult with BPD relationships.

But IMHO a goal of the non is to be more authentic, not controlling, not learn to say whatever it takes to control the pwBPD's reactions or emotions but to step out of the drama altogether by not trying to do this. They need to manage their own feelings. If FF didn't want to tell his wife right then and there, that's a choice too. That answer could be " Honey, I hear you are concerned for your father. I understand that. Thank you for letting me know. I have been preoccupied with my father's situation. Let me think about this, discuss it with your father and I will let you know when we have a plan. Love FF.

She may not like it but it was the truth. The part about the father might have been JADE, or a true description of what happened. She may not like this answer, but it is direct and honest too.

Or he has a plan and doesn't want to discuss it. We sometimes are not in a place where we are fully emotionally available. FF really is not right now and it makes sense that he isn't. Our MC cautioned us to not discuss hot topics whenever we were HALT- hungry, angry, lonely, tired. Add to that- being worried about someone or something. So we decline with validation and love.

Oh honey than you for reminding me. I'd like to discuss this but it is a bad time for me and I would like to talk to you when I can give you my full attention. Once I get back from visiting Dad, I will speak to your father and let you know. Thank you for understanding. Love FF.

She's not going to like this. It isn't familiar. When there are drama patterns- those feel familiar. Drama is the comfort zone of dysfunctional relationships. Not going with it shakes things up. But with repetition, it takes us out of the drama.

This is awesome thread... .keep it going.

I'm home for a few days.  More later.

Thank you all!

FF

 |iiii

Panda39

I was able to briefly scan the thread yesterday.  So before I spent much time in the thread today, I figured I would share what I wish I had said.

"You Dad hasn't mentioned this issue, so I haven't given it any thought.  I'll communicate with him again."

Of course I really want to include some kind of lecture or "make different points", but if the goal is to "just" answer a question... .to "hand the ball" back to my wife... .this is probably best.

Who knows, I may change the answer some after working through this thread today.

I tend to be an overthinker.  When I read my first effort now it seems I'm trying to explain a lot.

Also, I was "trying to be friendly"... .but was being dishonest, because I'm not the least "thankful" that she raised the issue.

Anyway... .I'll try to spend some time in the thread today.

FF

My big picture.  I think I'm pretty good at boundaries, sometimes I "relish" setting them and "protecting my turf".  Perhaps I even go overboard.

I'm much better at understanding drama triangle, but I have to make a conscious effort to think it through.  It never crossed my mind to consider my wife's communication from the drama perspective.

Even worse, for me, is that P has been pushing drama triangle as well.  Explaining situations from that perspective and making me work through them.  She says that my wife's family is one big triangle and they chase each other all over the place switching positions... .and nothing... .ever... .ever actually gets solved or decided.  Things just "happen" in that family.

So, I need to continue to evaluated situations from that perspective and hopefully get to a place where it is "second nature" to consider the triangle implications of whatever is going on.


FF

Yes... .there was some of this in there as well, although I tried to accomplish too much in the first email and didn't really answer the question.

When "hot buttons" come up, especially when she appears to be provocative or assuming victim... .such as portraying her parents on fixed income... .blah blah blah... .I usually try to kick the can down the road.

Here is the thing... .her parents live lavishly.  New vehicles... trips... .doing this and that...   I do understand that it is mainly a facade and there is no real savings... .but they do figure out ways to get their bills paid and have the life they live.

They figure it out.

That's what I really expected them to do.  This mortgage has been in place for 5-6 years, they knew this was coming and the part about "paid it last month"... .was... to me... .weird.  They got rent last month... they paid it the month before... .the year before... .3 years before.

I also didn't butter his toast or ask he he had plenty of jam.

We are talking about a roughly $575 payment.  Which is not insignificant, but given their lifestyle, can be found quite easily... .IMO.

FF

I'm using boundaries to think this through.  Step 1.  Sell the house and settle this deal.  Luckily it's a "hot" market and there should be considerable funds available to split and boil down to profit.

No money will leave lawyer office without us both agreeing on the split... .in writing.  Obviously the mortgage will be paid off at closing.

However... .after this deal is split and settled there will be a detailed spreadsheet from me showing breakdown of funds.  I've flipped 40-50 houses, many with partners I actually trust... ouch... .yeah... .I meant that... .so I've got the spreadsheet and splitting up part down pretty good.

Anyway... once that is settled and over I will be sending a letter to them requesting the spreadsheet or the invoice that was satisfied with the prior "early profit" or "money for all that work my Dad did"... .etc etc.

I will also be asking for copies of the 1099 and other tax documents (hint... they don't exist) and I would be shocked if the money was reported on income taxes.  It may... I don't know, but I doubt my wife issued them a 1099.  

Those in the finance world know that a payout in the $15k range should be tracked and reported.  Either there is a capital gain there... .or self employment tax if it was for his labor.

Reality, he does have interest in another house, although he is not on the deed.  He put in a lot of work and was part of decision making in what to do with the house.  The house has not been sold yet and the current rental income keeps the property from costing us anything.  Yet... he already has his "profit".

Anyway... .that will be an interesting process.  Reasonable people would create a financial settlement document, which I will offer, that clarifies there are no future sums owed... .ALL issues settled... .

And that no future obligations will be created, unless they are in a document with my notarized signature... .reference the hell freezing over comment to check likelihood of that ever happening.

FF

Not sure if the highlighted text is being ironic or serious.

It was/is serious.

It communicates that I haven't thought of a plan, the reason I haven't thought of a plan, communicates that the Dad and I are communicating, and provides assurance that the issue will communicated about with her Dad.

Then... .her response to that would really be telling if she is up for a fight... .or it was a genuine act of concern.

It also is more "gentle" than saying "I have no plan"

FF

Do you notice the timing of these drama invitations?

I find that these things tend to happen when I am not at 100%- be it feeling temporarily under the weather, stress at work,  or like you- worrying about a family member. This seems to be the time for these things to happen.

It is easy to wonder if they are "kicking a person when he is down" but I don't think it is that. We tend to be on alert with someone with BPD, and we pay attention. These types of things distract us. I think the pwBPD may feel the distraction as abandonment- and then do what they know works to get your attention - the drama . This reels you in for a moment. They may not even be aware of it, but I think they see the distraction as a lack of interest " he isn't interested in me" .

may feel the distraction as abandonment- and then do what they know works to get your attention - the drama . This reels you in for a moment. They may not even be aware of it, but I think they see the distraction as a lack of interest " he isn't interested in me" .
[/quote]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. FF, this seems to be what is happening to you. I also think that explains why when we are in a situation like this-when a third party is involved-the pwBPD seems to always find a way to turn the conversation to be about them. You see, your wife wanted answers for HER OWN needs. I think this is why we tend to as you put it "overthink" everything. We become conditioned to try to figure out how our every move, word and motion will be interpreted by our SO.

I mean the lecture part.  Sorry if my highlighting skills need work.

Oh... the lecture part.  Yeah... .I have this internal "need" to "explain" to my wife why such and such is bad behavior.

Doesn't work out very well and I try to avoid doing it.  I also try to be mindful of when I "feel the need" to give a lecture that I need to "think through" my response... .so there is no lecture.

However... .I'm an overthinker... .sometimes that goes off the rails.

FF

At least you're self-aware which is good.  Your post on the need to lecture hit home because I can relate.  One of my things I needed to work on was exactly this.  Like you, I got better at catching myself.  The more practice at catching oneself, the less the behavior is part of us.

Underlying the "need" to lecture is usually some good/important information.

I try to pick my times better and to be succinct perhaps even draw out my wife some with some related questions that might... .I emphasize "might"... .help her understand the importance of the information I am about to pass.

It can be a lot of work and my success rate is maybe 50/50... .maybe.

No doubt it is better than the way I did it before... .but this part of our relationship is still a work in progress.

FF