BPDFamily.com

Aarrgghh. Okay, here's what I'm going to do.
I am going to post 'hey' on this board.
I am going to work on my novel.
I am going to play 2048.
Maybe I'll play a new game, as well.

Reminders:
I did all I'm capable of doing.
It is okay to feel angry that a 41 year old man is chasing my dog, who is nearly 15 and arthritic and on her way out of this world, around the yard, trying to poke her and scare her.
It is NOT okay that I responded that 1) how would he like it if I started chasing his cats around the room and poking them with brooms. And then when he said, "You wouldn't do that." I said, "yes, I would. Just wait. You leave. Im going after them with brooms."
THAT WAS NOT OKAY FOR ME TO SAY THAT TO HIM.
To anyone else, I'd have said exactly that and not felt bad.

So, what I'm going to do:
Work on my novel.
Play 2048.
Maybe play another game.
Jump start my own life.

I did not create this.
I cannot change it.

Hey... .welcome to a new board.

Can you catch me up quickly on your story?

Could you just ask someone to stop chasing your dog around?  I'm not sure I'm following this.

Looking forward to getting to know you.

FF

Hi FF,
   The story of my husband and me is long and complicated, so let me focus only on the dogs, and my husband's diagnosis, which may or may not be correct, which is schizoaffective disorder with a personality disorder NOS, but primarily BPD and NPD. We've been married nearly 10 years. Second marriage for me, and I'm much older than he is.
  I have 4 dogs. Two are old. One, let's call her Roxy, is a herding dog, about 15. Hard of hearing and probably has some level of canine dementia. She startles easily. My H doesn't like her, so he waits until she is inside lying against one of the doors and he pushes the door open as hard as he can, causing her to slide across the floor. When she gets up to run away from her, he chases her down the hall, poking her back end. She is so frightened of him that she loses control of her bowels.
  I have asked him to stop. Repeatedly. I have explained that she is the equivalent of an 80-year-old and would he want someone chasing his grandmother like that. No matter what I have said, he has not stopped. He will come into the house and say, "we can't have any of that. no being afraid." and then he pokes her.
  I have another herding dog, young. Let's call her Maizie. When I got Maizie, my H kicked her, now he wants to be fast friends with her. He tries calling her away from me. She has bitten someone in the neighborhood, and I've been working with trainers to get Maizie calmed down. My H gets her really wound up. I don't believe he cares for the dog. I believe he wants to get her away from me because anything I care about he wants.
  Today I saw him in the yard, running after Roxy, tormenting her, poking her on the hips, with her trying to get away from him. I went outside and said, "Can you just stop?"
  (He's off his meds, by the way.) And he said, 'we can't have anyone afraid of me," and kept chasing her.
  I finally asked him if he'd want me to go into his guest house and chase his two cats. He said, "you wouldn't do that."
  That's when I got out of line and said, "yes, I would. I'd poke them with brooms, so they'll stop being afraid of me."
  So... .He went on Facebook and posted vile vile things about me, sent me vile emails. I reported the Facebook stuff, as he was telling me not to take him on or he'd go after me and all my friends and family.
  I contacted his father & doctor with the FB stuff, along with an email in which I let H know that I'd been over to the guest house, so he and I could talk unless he preferred hating me, in which case I'd leave him alone.
  So now I'm tired, going to bed soon. In retrospect, I could have handled the dog chasing thing more effectively, or I could have refrained from spending time with him today.
 On to my own stuff now. Thanks for getting back to me, FF.

Leave the poor cats alone, not an option . While we're at -comparing- dogs age to human age (poor Roxy is 105 [times 7]... quite drastically some more but 80), why not comparing him to a more drastic situation (ie. chasing him around with a pitchfork  ?
Punishing a pet is simply animal cruelty, whether to cats or dogs or any animal.

We certainly need to find a way to make him stop that behavior (don't serve him dog food on a platter yet). Playing games and getting some "me" time is a good start.

I also hope you removed Roxy from that situation immediately and took him/her to a safe place, did you?


Gumiho

How many times has something like this happened before with animals?  Are we talking 2 or 3... .or 30... or?


Can you spend some time reflecting on the day in question (with him outside poking) and talk about the dynamics of your relationship with him (before the poking) and any other big things going on with him.

I hope you can take care of yourself today (and the animals).  I'm sure we can help you understand a better way to react in the future.  What's done is done... .let's move on.

FF

Let me apologize in advance for the length of this. I'm a writer; I collect details. When I write down all the details of what happened, it helps me process and shift my energy elsewhere.

We are talking at least 30 with Roxy, at least 30 where he gets Maizie going. It used to be she used to growl at him through the door, and he told everyone she'd attacked him. Now he wants to be "friends" with her, and I don't trust it. He doesn't go after the cats we own. Anything or anyone that is important to me, my H hates. He demonstrates the hate towards my grown son by not responding to him if my son says 'hello.' He demonstrates the hate/jealousy towards a friend of mine by making fun of her ethnicity (not in front of her) and maintaining she came on to him, but he'd never hit that thing. (his words) He hates my car. Anything. Even restaurants. So I think, at the base of this is jealousy.


Yesterday, I intentionally put energy into our relationship. I don't always do that. I asked him if he'd like to go to the grocery store. He wanted to go to the pharmacy there because the pharmacists fill his med boxes for him. (In May, he wanted total responsibility for his meds, which his psychiatrist gave him. Total responsibility means he fills them himself and takes them as prescribed. He is now tired of doing that and told me (could be a lie) that he hasn't taken meds for the past three days. So I got him to the grocery store; that wasn't easy. He got into the car with me, after first going back to the guest house to "get his meds" and when he didn't return I went after him. He was lying on the bed naked, eating Doritos, and I reminded him he needed to get to the store. When he asked me to just sit down and relax, I kept urging him to get ready. He finally got into the car, and we got down the block, and he told me to take him home. He wasn't going because he forgot his meds. I said at first forget it we were going. Then I checked myself and asked if I brought him back to the house, could he run in and get the meds and I said that he knew he didn't like me rushing him, but that so far it had taken 20 minutes just to get out of the house (I'd told him before that I'd leave at 1:45 and it was now 2:05)
  We finally got to the store. He finally got the meds dispensed, and now he wants to bring me out for hot dogs and shaved ice. I can't eat hot dogs and he knows this, and the shaved ice was for him. I figured, okay, I'd go with him and keep him company. Then he changed his mind and wanted to go to Costco, so we went to Costco. He and I were both hungry. I pointed out a steak house where we've both been before together. He said we'd never been there and if it had been him who had found it, we could go. I said, fine, then hot dogs?
   I suggested, since it was on the way, we stop for the shaved ice first. The drive through was horrendous. I told him he could go inside, and I'd wait in the car. He came back out within two minutes and told me the line was too long, and let's just go home. We were 1/2 mile from home and he said he was starving. I offered to stop at places close to the house, but those were my places, he told me. I said, okay, we'll go home. And as we're pulling into the driveway, he told me we could have avoided all the arguing if I just would have gone to Burger King with him. (BK never came up.)
  I came into the house grabbed something to eat, and smoked a bit of medical marijuana. The strain, so you know, does not induce a high; it's mixed with CBD and can best be equated to a Xanax, it simply takes the edge off. And it did take the edge off. I felt much better. I reminded myself that when H is off his meds, he is indecisive and chaotic, so I went over to the guest house and told him I felt way better. He told me he was going to Burger King. I told him to have fun and went back to the main house, where I was writing.
  Roxie was in the hall outside the room. The next thing I hear is H opening the door, taunting Roxie: "Am I scaring you? Am I scaring you? How about now?" I came out of the room, H took off. Then he came back, got Roxie outside and proceeded to chase her. She can't run, so he just kept shuffling behind her, taunting her with, "are you scared now?" and then poking her.
  That's when I came out and said what I did about his cats.



I will spend the day writing, and I really hope you can help me figure out a better way to react in the future. Thank you!
TMD

To reassure you, I would never touch his cats. I'm an animal fanatic. Just this week I rescued a baby bunny, kept it alive for two nights, and turned it into Wildlife Rescue, where I am now looking to volunteer.

We certainly need to find a way to make him stop that behavior
[/quote]
Totally agree. And I'm at a loss.

Yes, I brought Roxie into the room with me (female), and she's in here with me now along with Maizie (other female). I have two other dogs that he treats fine.

Thanks!
TMD

Wow, isn't projection an amazing thing?

Hi toomanydogs,

I had a partner who also had a dual diagnosis.   She was compliant with medication but even so there were times where she was over the line into psychosis.   I never got good at identifying those times.   I don't think any one comes equipped with a built in 'anti reality' detector.  I also was stunned by how fast the switch could flip.

In a situation like you are describing, a significant diagnosis, off medication, and borderline aggressive behavior (no pun intended)  safety for you and the dogs comes first.    Safety can look different for different people in different situations but maybe we can all agree that it means a place where no one is being physically intimidated.   While his behavior is directed at the dogs I think it is also exerts pressure, power and control towards you.  Do you see it that way?

When my partner became emotionally dsyregulated with a distorted reality I found that removing myself was often the best thing I could do.   It was too late to validate at that point.   Validation was only effective much further upstream from the event.    Rational discussion was out the window.   There is just no way to explain anything to some one in that condition.   It was important that I have 1) a safe place to go,  and 2) that I exited in a careful and control way.

For me I kept a separate residence, because I had the resources to do that.   I understand that might not work for everyone but I would encourage you to think about a friend, a neighbor, a family member who you can trust.   who you could go to and say, there might be a time where I need to come over for a while bringing the dogs with me... .just to provided a cooling off period for H while we are going through this difficult time.   I would suggest you think about keeping a 'go bag'.  I had one in my car for a long time.   A change of clothes, cell phone charger, spare keys, extra credit cards.   I never really used it but it provided protection from the potential chaos.   

I would also suggest that you find opportunities to create a pattern of removing yourself and the dogs before things escalate.   build it in to the dynamic.

I want to stress that how you leave is as important as when you leave (earlier is better)   what you say going out the door matters.   Do Not Say, I have got to leave now because you are driving me and the dogs crazy again.    I found it helpful to craft my language before hand so I didn't have to come up with it on the fly. I had a collection of stock phrases that I used depending on the situation.   things like,  I am going for a walk around the block, I'll be back in 45 minutes.   I think it's best if I take a break right now so I'm going to X's house and will be back after dinner.   I feel it's best if I (and the dogs) spend the night with Y so that everyone can relax.     If there was no time for a careful exit I would just grab my keys and say I have to go now.

You know him best,... .you know when there might be a window of time that he could be receptive to hearing a message along the lines of "I can not have the dogs treated this way, this is no longer an option and when I see the dogs either being chased or poked I am going to take the dogs away for a while."   the 'for a while' is important because of the abandonment fears.

What do you think?    How do you think this might work?

'ducks

Hi Ducks,
  Interesting handle you have. I also keep ducks and just culled a flock of Muscovies.
  I am fortunate that we have two houses on our property. What I did yesterday when I saw what he was posting on Facebook was lock myself and the dogs into the main house and further lock the door to my bedroom.
  I think he goes after the dogs precisely because he doesn't go after me physically. I have always seen it that way and perceive it as his attempt at intimidating me, which is why, when I'm not snapping at him about his cats (which means I've lost my emotional stability) is retreat to my bedroom, always with Roxie and Maizie. If I think he may come in, I lock the door. If he hasn't escalated to that point, I leave the door unlocked and give us both some breathing room.
  What I'm working towards right now is divorcing emotionally from him, but I'm conflicted, so sometimes it feels like I can make it work.
Thanks, Ducks!
TMD

Hi TMD,

Interesting thoughts.    thanks for your reply.

my understanding is that people who suffer from the characteristics of BPD/NPD can display behavior that is about establishing or displaying power and control.    Isolating us can be a form of that.   hence the no response to your grown son, the making fun of your friend, the dislike of your car and restaurant choices... .

my thought is that locking yourself in your room, while providing safety for the dogs and you, (which is a good thing,) continues to feed the dynamic of power and control... .he has backed you up into a position of restriction and limitations.    Does that make sense?    That's why I am suggesting you leave.   

there are significant challenges to having  a relationship with a seriously mentally ill person, which is not to say there aren't reasons to try... .

you are right it is helpful to detach and consider things from a less emotional place.

how do you think he would respond right now to any conversation about drawing a boundary around his treatment of the dogs?

'ducks

I don't think he'd respond well to any discussion today primarily because I'm not up for having an emotionally neutral discussion. :)

What you suggest regarding leaving makes sense. However, I don't feel as if he's backed me into the room. It feels more that I've locked him out.

As I said, we have 2 houses. He stays in the guest house, and I stay in the main house. Generally, I leave the doors unlocked, so he can come into the main house if he wants. When I lock the doors, it feels empowering. It's my "stay away," without saying anything.

And I'm free to come and go as I wish. In a bit I'll go to Home Depot but I'll keep the 2 dogs locked away.

Being in the main house as I am right now feels like having no contact--my choice. If the house were smaller and the yard were smaller, then I'd feel as if he'd pushed me back into a room. Because I work in my room even when I'm not upset with him, this just feels different. And tomorrow, people who help out will be here.

We have 2 1/2 acres, and it's a shame I won't let the dogs out to run right now, but I just don't trust him.

He has been telling me he's moving out. At first, that hurt my feelings, and now it's more like a relief.

TMD

Hey Ducks... .good to "see" you again.!   :)

TMD,

Perhaps you missed the intent of Ducks post.  I'll put my spin on it.

When living with a disordered person (or whatever label you want for the people we live with) it is critical that we live our own lives.  And that we make a point of making that point to them with consistent words and actions.

So... .to have that idea (live your own life) I would have suggest that instead of asking him if he wanted to go to the store... .that you invite him with you.

"Hey babe... .I'm heading to the store and was planning of enjoying a treat along way.  It would me a lot to me if you would go with me."

blah blah blah you hate me, you dog attacks me blah blah

"Oh my goodness... .I don't know what to say.  I'll be leaving in 5 minutes if you want to come."  (prep and leave... .with or without him)   (assumption here is it is too late for validation)

If you make it about him and "convincing" him to go, you are no longer his partner, but his caregiver.  And that may be a role you need to play for a while or from time to time.  You will need to involve his mental health team to figure out how to best navigate those waters

As far as locking yourself in a house.  I don't want to suggest that is bad, but perhaps there are better ways.

If you suspect he is coming unglued and he doesn't know you have locked yourself in, and you do that to ensure your peace and quiet, I'm much happier about you locking yourself in.

If he chases you around and you "retreat" to the house with him chasing, I'm much MORE uncomfortable with you doing that.  Although putting up a physical boundary is sometimes the best option.

I would much rather him see you drive away (with dogs) and go off and live your life at a friends house, than see you "hide".

Last thought:  Sometimes its good to shake up the dynamic.  So, if you have been locking yourself in, start leaving.  A few months later, switch it back.  The point is that you are making the decision not him.  

Thoughts?

Does he attend regular therapy?

FF

Oh my god! Eye-opener. Where I got sidetracked and pulled in is when I went over to the house to see if he was ready. Instead, what I needed to do is shoot him a text: "Hey, sorry, you ended up not wanting to go. (or something like that) I'll see you when I get back." Brilliant. Thank you!

It sounds like you have a very nice property.  I am just a little envious.   

My partner went through a pretty substantial disruption to her mental health team.   Like you we had a psychiatrist, two psychologists, and a mental health nurse.   That system worked pretty well for a while.   When one psychologist retired and moved, and the psychiatrist changed what health insurance he accepted,  things really unraveled.  It was unfortunate.   I understand how difficult it is when the team isn't functioning well.   Especially with people who have abandonment and relationship issues.

You know best about how and when to approach the boundary about harassing the dogs.   You mentioned that the elderly dog is so frightened she looses control of her bowels.    That sounds unpleasant for everyone.     I suspect that he is going to continue to chase and poke at the dogs because he is getting something out of it.    Usually the pay off is a place to dump unpleasant emotions and a way to redirect attention and caregiving back towards the disordered person.

Any ideas on how you are going to respond the next time he starts to act out on the dogs?

'ducks

Hi Ducks,
 I don't know how I'm going to respond next time the dog thing comes up. I think I may be in denial about it, thinking I can just keep them with me.
  Thank God I meet with my therapist/coach on Tuesday. I'll plan my next response,
TMD

Well, this is just getting to be all sorts of fun.

Pretty sure H is back on drugs--either meth, coke, or crack. He told me Saturday that he was going to the next town to score drugs, hoped it wasn't a sting.

Because he lies about so much, I didn't believe him. However, he has an app that shows where he's driven, and he made a six-minute stop at someone's house (no one we know).

At first, I thought he was cheating (he'd posted on FB that he was looking to get laid by a decent looking hooker), but six minutes wouldn't have been enough time.

I've got some ideas about how to handle this, and I am thinking about how to handle the dog situation.

TMD

I'd like to hear your thoughts on how you will handle drugs?  I'm assuming this is not the first time.

What values do you have on this issue?

Since he posted about getting laid... .what values do you have regarding your husband getting laid?

FF hint:  When figuring out action, hit pause button and consider your values... .consider the principles involved... .  Many times that sort of answers the what to do about xyz.

FF

Hi TMD,

How are you doing today?

It sounds like you've really got it going on right now.   That is a lot to handle,   a lot of overwhelming things happening in a short period of time.

A couple of thoughts, and a question or two.   

First I notice that you've been registered on this site for about a month,... there is a lot on this site so I am wondering if you've had a chance to look at the workshops on boundaries.    The short version of the lesson/workshop on boundaries is "our boundaries come from our values and impact our behavior".   

My example is, I value a good nights sleep, and a peaceful evening,... .my boundary was I won't participate in a heavy emotional conversation after 8PM at night.    I would happily talk to my partner about the weather, the tv program,  the cat,... .but if it became one of those long deadlocked circular arguments of why aren't you doing enough to make me happy... .well I gave it 15 minutes and I was done,... .I was happy to schedule a time to talk about it later but in my r/s talking was usually an euphemism for a circular argument.   

So FF is asking about values because from the sounds of it your H is treading pretty heavily on yours.   You mentioned up stream that you value kindness and care of animals and that value is being disrespected.   

Could you frame a potential solution based on your values?... .  how would that look?

I noticed you said that your H is not neuro typical but is also likely dealing with some neurological problem.    What you are describing is a situation really ripe for some impulsive and outrageous acting out.    Since it appears your H is off his medication, do you believe the chances of him self medicating with drugs has grown?

I understood you to say you feel he uses the dogs as a surrogate in lieu of aggressive behavior towards you.

If I got that correct that's concerning.   I remember you said you contacted his doctor and his father regarding the Facebook posts.   Did you get a reply?    Is there a mechanism in place to ask for a wellness check?   

Not to put words in FF's keyboard but I think what he is asking is, do you know where you line in the sand is regarding your H's behavior?

Let us know how you are doing.

'ducks

Hi FF,
  This has gotten substantially worse. He left today around 3:30. He emailed me that he is safe and then wrote all the things that his father, his doctors, and I have done, and that he needs to leave. (He has a loaner car, so I don't think he will go anywhere far.) He's taken his cats, and he is extremely hurt by me and everything he perceives me (and his father) of doing--primarily stealing his money.
  I am now worried about his safety. The local psychiatric center told me to call the police; a friend told me to wait until I hadn't heard from him for 24 hours. I texted his psychiatrist, who isn't speaking to me, and his father to see if he'd contacted them.
  H has history of not taking meds and being impulsive.
  Now, your questions: The drugs--meth or coke--are a deal breaker for me. They could kill him, and he worked his butt off to get clean 14 years ago. If I find out he's back on drugs, I will do everything in my power to see that he gets into a dual diagnosis facility.
  Getting laid? I have a problem with that, too. I have wanted to be sexual with him for years, and he isn't. Because of the meds, he has difficulty reaching orgasm. I also think he has problems with being sexual with me because we are intimately involved.
  Right now, I'm holding tight, debating whether or not to bring the police into the situation when my husband has told me he's safe. I'm inclined to wait for 24 hours because I asked him to stay in touch every 24 hours, so I wouldn't worry.
  Really, if this hasn't come across, the relationship I have with my H is much more that of a mother/son relationship than H/W. I've got 20 years on him, and I think he chose me because he wanted a mother, but that's for another post... .
TMD

TMD,

ahhh we cross posted... .that happens.

So has he 'contracted for safety'?   that's the technical term we use here where I live,... a contract for safety means the person of concern has agreed to contact the appropriate medical professional instead of taking any self damaging actions.

'ducks

Hi Ducks,
  I just got off the phone with my coach. Feeling much better. Boundaries back in place, and I can now write.
  The focus for the rest of the night will be solely on  me.
Thank you, Ducks & FF. So much of your advice gets me thinking in ways I haven't previously thought; it's very helpful. Your advice, combined with my coach's insights about not amping up the drama, really help.
 I just read your latest post, Ducks. No, he hasn't contracted for safety. He was contacting me, I think, because last time I told him if I didn't hear from him that I was reporting him missing as an endangered person, meaning that his judgment is impaired. So, in a way, it's good he let me know he's safe.
  I do think the way he took off was designed to get me worried, which it did, and frazzled and shooting from the hip, neither of which I did.
  I kind of have a contract, not for safety, but for keeping out of the drama and focusing on myself, which is why I contacted my coach. And why I contacted a friend, who is so like my coach in her thinking, they could be family. :)
Thanks, both of you!
TMD
  

It sounds like you have an agreement with him to be in contact every 24 hours to let you know he is safe.    good.     I would suggest you hold to that boundary and if you don't hear from him follow through on the agreement.


sometimes the best thing you can do is get the necessary professionals involved and let events take their course.

Thank you! 

My ex traumatized my animals too- not nearly as bad as that. Just controlled them. My dog still has issues she learned from him and I had to put my cats down this year. One became a biter and mean. I suggest you choose between the dogs or the husband. That's just terrible to put them through that. Find foster care. When something terrible happens he won't care but you will and you will resent him for it. He doesn't like the dogs, because you do. Act like you are making a big sacrifice for him, but know you are saving the dogs. That's my take. I'm tired of people putting animals in harms way. They don't deserve it. He's just trying to control you through them. It's really sick and I suggest you tell his therapist.

TMD,

   

I'm glad you are focused back on you. I'm going to step it up a notch and push you to do something special that you have been putting off.  Something that you would really enjoy.


I'm also going to say that I'm going to stay "very general" in this post.  While I feel quite confident giving specific advice to someone with a "BPDish" partner that "just" likes to do circular arguments or "projection"... etc etc... .I don't have the same confidence with "comorbid", "dual diagnosis", people going on and off heavy duty meds... .etc etc.

It would seem that you have let the appropriate professionals know.  Did you ask if they have seen him only, or did you give them specifics about what he has said/threatened?    I would make sure they have specifics.  I would request (if you are emailing) that they acknowledge receipt and let you know if they have contact.

Can you update us on your relationship with his P (psychiatrist)?  It seems frayed for some reason.

Taking care of you is always a good option... .seems like your focus is their now.

There is a lot going on here.

Prioritization will be important.

Oh yeah... back to Ducks comments about values. 

That's pretty much it... ."red lines"... values etc etc.  It's very easy to "get lost" in a BPDish relationship.  I'm sure it's even easier in yours. 

Next thing you know you realize that YOU have made decisions and done things that you would never... ever... have done except now you are in this odd relationship, doing things to try to appease someone that is "unappeasable" (another new FF word... .I'm on a role lately) and you start to wonder who you are...

Anyway... that was my experience.  I got to a place where I really didn't like "who I had become".

Plus... from a decision making point of view, principals and values that are well thought through will many times "make" your decisions for you... or at least throw up red flags that you are on the wrong path.

One thing here.  I'm going to suggest that you may want to reconsider "dealbreakers" that are done with off meds.  Not exactly saying "give him a pass", but by the same token, it would seem that people on heavy duty meds really go off the rails... .when off their meds.

Almost like there is the medicated person and the unmedicated.

Perhaps there is a boundary there that you will be with them if they are "on their plan".

Aagain... .  

You've got a lot going on.

Focus on you first.

FF

One more thought.

What is your status with T "for you"?

I ask because that will help you immensely.

Personally, I've been seeing a PhD level psychologist weekly for about 1.5 years now.  I've done individual T before as well.

This Psychologist has also worked with my wife enough to have seen "her do her thing", so between my stories and her own experience with my wife, she's pretty much got our relationship dynamic nailed.

Many times I'll say that I said such such to my wife and she flipped out... .  Before I give details, the psychologist with think for a minute and toss out some guesses about what my wife would say and do... .she's right way more often than she is wrong.  It's uncanny.

Paranoia is central to my wife's stuff, heavily dysfunctional FOO (for example, my MIL and MIL's sister got in a fist fight while at bedside of their ailing Mom... .in a nursing home)  Let's just say they disagreed about decision making about their Mom... .

Yeah... .two women in their 50s/60s throwing down... .

I digress... .

Anyway, I expect I will keep up the weekly habit for a long time.  When things are calm, we focus on "just me stuff" and putting positive "emotional" habits in place for my family, and when my wife goes off the rails we focus on that.

Another long winded way of saying take care of you first!

FF

You know, FF, I think I did get lost for a while, and I was becoming someone I didn't like.

Like so many people, my childhood was chaotic, but from the time I was very little until I was about 10, I was able to dramatize it and look at it as very exciting. (I think that's why I'm a writer.)

My mother died when I was in high school, and I could no longer dramatize anything, and I fell into an awful depression that lasted way longer than it needed.

I'm telling you this because what I'm doing with the help of my coach and a few friends is taking that little girl who was so dramatic and so positive and blending her with the woman I am today. (I already blended her with the girl I became when my mom died.)

I'm healing some pretty deep wounds, and it's ongoing. But a few weeks ago, I turned a major corner. My H set me up regarding where he was and what he had done with his cats, and then sent pictures to his psychiatrist to prove he wasn't delusional and I'd made the whole thing up, and his psychiatrist bought it.

After that weekend, I realized I had way under estimated my H's wherewithal to "get" me, and after that, with the help of some pretty good people, I've really been focusing on myself.

I had the falling out with the psychiatrist because 1) she wouldn't work on a team I'd put together; she had problems with confidentiality regarding the psych tech (I always suspected it was a class thing & the P wanted to be the expert and opening treatment and discussions to everyone threatened that); 2) She contacted my coach, without my permission or advance knowledge, about a nasty email I wrote to my H; 3) She again contacted my coach without my permission or knowledge about my coach intervening because I had stopped meeting with the P to fill her in on details about my H; and 4) She let him be responsible for his entire meds, all 30 days' worth, knowing he's been suicidal in the past, knowing he could unintentionally kill himself, and knowing he has no history of taking his meds appropriately.

For me, the relationship with her is not something I am able or willing to "fix." Seriously mentally ill people have a much better chance of stabilizing and even getting better when they have involved family. I believe she has put a wedge in the relationship I have with my H. (I used to be involved with NAMI and have done a lot of reading on outcomes of seriously ill people)

I informed the P tonight after my H contacted me. I informed her and my FIL through a group text to my H in which I thanked him for keeping me informed that he was safe.

I don't share anything with the P right now. I don't trust her. I think she is harming my H. In March when I mentioned a number of things that were concerning me, she turned all of it back on me.

I have reported her to the medical board for contacting my coach. I said it was probably not a HIPA violation but it was unethical and invasive.

What will happen is my H will eventually get tired of her and when he wants to fire her, I'll support that.

Wow. I really went off on her.

Unfortunately, H's therapist is currently out of the country, and even more unfortunately, he will probably be letting my H go as a client due to safety concerns, i.e.: disappearing and not telling people where he is.

My coach and I look at what I'm learning from this relationship. (We tend to have similar spiritual views) and what I know I'm learning is to cheerfully establish very firm boundaries. Example: He wanted to be responsible for his meds, he then started hinting about my dispensing them because it was so time consuming for him. I didn't even let him finish. I enthusiastically responded that, "yes, it was a major pain in the butt filling those things, wasn't it?" he also asked if i were going to the grocery store where the pharmacy is (he doesn't ask directly). I knew he wanted me to pick up the meds, but what I said was that I was going and I'd pick up sherbet for him, so we could make smoothies, would he like that?

He does have a tendency, however, to amp things up, so that the consequences of his actions can be quite serious, which is why when the P gave him all his meds at once, I emailed her, so I'd have a copy if anything happened, that I believed it wasn't safe to do so, and I thought she was making the wrong call.

And with that, I'm going back to my 2048 game and my very first mystery story I've ever written. I'm happy with how it's going and happy that I'm now brave enough to take a stab at a genre I love to read.

Anyhow, thanks again, for reaching out to me. I find that writing everything down really helps, and I can see I'm still angry with the P, but I did put that aside long enough to include her in the group mail. :)

Just saw your post about T. I've been in and out of therapy for nearly 40 years. My mom's death totally derailed me. And although I now see a coach, her background is in social work, but she moved out of state and now functions as a coach. She's instrumental in helping me remain stable. Right now because things seem in crisis, I see her twice a week, via Skype.

Hi TMD,

How are you doing today?

Stress and energy management is what I am thinking.   I tended to underestimate the amount of stress in my r/s and over estimate the amount of energy I had stored up to get through.   After a chaotic event I would find my knees aching and only then come to realize that I had been sitting with my toes curled up in my shoes for hours.   Tension.   

So finding a way to relax and recharge is a good step.

It's unfortunate that the relationship with the psychiatrist is untenable right now.    Since she is not a resource for you I would suggest that you not spend any energy there.    On the boards here we talk about the BIFF form of communication.   Brief, Informative, Firm, Friendly.   Communications boiled down to their essence.   "as his primary care giver I believe it's important you know he has left his home with his pets and is an undisclosed location".    or words to that effect.   BIFF and ball in her court.

People with mental illness often damage their treatment team.   It's part of what makes treatment so hard.   My partner went after psychologist number two in our team.    Accused her of impropriety and being ~overly fond~ of me.   Suffice to say that ended that member's participation in the team.   Self sabotage is another symptom of the illness, IMHO.  Let the professionals deal with it.   Best you can hope for is that this becomes a wake up call for the psychiatrist.

I too had an unusual childhood and survived it resilient and intact thanks to the care of my grandparents.   What I have come to find out is that it left me pre-wired for C-PTSD.   Heck if I wasn't already C-PTSD before my partner and  I got together I was pretty much two inches away.    Going into my r/s I was depressed due to just ordinary life events.    Coming out of the r/s I was motivated to really do what was necessary to make me more comfortable with me.   Which meant treating my now full blown case of C-PTSD and the black dog.   I'm making progress.

It sounds like you are doing all the right things.    Taking care of yourself,   avoiding adding fuel to the fire, not amping up a situation already fraught with tension, while simultaneously doing what is necessary to take care of 'business'.   It's a bit of a tight rope.  When the people we care about have serious mental illness it can become like a part time job to figure out how to work the system.

and just wondering,  what is the 2048 game about?

'ducks

 

Can you tell us more about your coach?  Degrees... .board certifications... .years of experience... .that kind of thing.

So, I don't understand all the "details" of the issues with your hubby's P.  I'm going to suggest, for now, that we stick with principles (big picture stuff).  Being retired military... .I'm also a big fan of "structure" and "chain of command".

I don't think it wise that you ever be a "full fledged" member of your hubby's "team"  Why?  Because for you, it is personal... .even though it's obvious you have done an amazing job of "detaching" to fulfill a  "team" roll at certain times.   |iiii

So... .can you consider this "principle" for a bit before responding.

"Members of my husbands team will have unfettered access to communicate with each other.  They will inform my husband and/or me as they, in their professional opinion, deem necessary."

Is that a value (principle) you could live with?

Perhaps the relationship with this P can't be mended.  Perhaps the process of mending the relationship with this P is a pathway to something better for you.  Only time will tell.

Understand that all of your team is involved with the "practice" of medicine.  Outcomes aren't assured.  Many times what looks like a horrible choice to you is actually, in their medical opinion/experience, them "picking their poison".  In other words, neither choice is good.

Sometimes they could be trying something new, solely for the purpose of gathering data... .after having put other ideas to the "fail/never again" category.

I'll hush for now... .kinda ran outta time and have to go.  I'll check in later.

FF

I'm doing good. Going in for routine doc check-up, seeing my coach, and meeting up with a friend.

Yes, do this, too. Try to combat it by remaining active. I have horses and a donkey and goats and ducks and chickens. Taking care of them--with the hauling of feed bags and tossing of hay helps.
And Pilates really helps keep me focused on my breathing and where I'm holding tension. Generally shoulders.


I love this, and I will use it.

I can only hope. :)



2048 is a game where you slide numbered tiles: 2 to another 2 and get 4, then 4 to 4 and get 8, and so on, until you can get one tile that has now added up to 2048. I have threatened my daughter that I'd disown her because she keeps winning and now thinks it's boring, and I have yet to win.

And when my not winning 2048 is my only concern, I know I'm doing great.

TMD

My "coach" used to be my therapist when she lived in this state. She has an MSW and a LISW. She has a little over 20 years experience in the state where I live. When she was here, she treated those with DID and personality disorders. A lot of clients who were suicidal and that sort of thing. Got compassion fatigue, so when she out of state, she held on to only two clients--I was one of them--and instead of continuing with being a social worker, she transitioned into coaching.
Because she started as my therapist--I was with her for four years in this state--I never checked what credentials she has now.
As I said, I've been in and out of therapy for nearly 45 years, and she and one other therapist, were so outstandingly matched to my personality and issues, I'd love to erect a statue. She makes me laugh. She challenges me when I'm getting caught up in the drama, and she pushes me to stay focused on myself.
[/quote]


Generally, I'd agree with you. However, the reason I established a team was that back in 2010, my H had a psychotic break. I thought he'd need 24/7 care. I got him to a recovery center near that was based in mindfulness as a tenet of treatment, and he got better. He was no longer running naked through the yard, screaming ethnic slurs at the neighbors, and peeing on the floor and in the yard.

When I got H back to the house (and we weren't living like "normal" husbands and wives), I asked representatives from a treatment facility that had as its number one tenet: mindfulness. The number two tenet was that a patient could only be as healthy as the household. (Systems based psychology). As a result, we, as much as possible, ran the household that way. We had monthly meetings, informal meetings, as well, to ensure that my H was not triangulating and to ensure that no one was getting burned out.

The P initially seemed to "buy into" that type of treatment. And it worked. I had support to maintain the house, and my H, in that environment, was able to get off a 20-year use of benzodiazepines (not easy); he quit smoking cigarettes; he was unable to triangulate; he was writing, and he was making music. To me, he was slowly getting better. He still had episodes but he was getting better.

I also thought and still believe that with the P, the T, the tech, and I, who have a 15-year background in teaching adults, that the team was ideal.
Yes, I have a personal RS with my H, but it's never been a typical marriage. For the past 7 years, my H has lived nearly exclusively in the guest house. He doesn't want to share my bed. He doesn't want to go out with me unless he suggests it.

In February, that all changed. And it changed when he called the tech a "c**t". I considered it an opportunity for him to learn to take responsibility for what he'd done. The P said the tech and I should learn to be called that, so it wouldn't bother us so much.

H has resumed smoking, and I strongly suspect he may be on drugs again.

An aside: When he called her an ethnic slur (she's Jewish) on Facebook and provided her name and address and phone number, she objected, and asked him to take it down.


I could live with that principle where the T is concerned. With the P, no. I think she's lost her professional objectivity, and I consider her a danger to my H's well-being.
[/quote]


I know that. But I also know there is something off with the P right now. Instead of attempting to build my H's independence by encouraging him to write his father or write me or talk to me, she writes his father on his behalf, asking that my FIL provide my H more money. She writes me: "H has asked me contact you to stop treating him like a hostage." And she copies that text to FIL and T.

There's something wrong, and I completely get where you're coming from; however, in her case, she needs to be replaced.

Thanks! I'm off to start my day.

[/quote]


Cool. Talk later. Have a good day!
TMD

First of all... .I am totally jealous of the place you live.  We have been "off the farm" for... .goodness I guess it has been 4 years now.  We did dairy goats, horses, bees and several other critters.  Great place/lifestyle to raise a family.

I completely understand... .and miss... .the ability to spend time in the barn to work out stress, renew my mind, get a feeling of accomplishment... .etc etc.

Now... .on to the mental health team.

     

Please understand I'm not arguing with you and certainly not against you.  My perspective is as a person just taking a peek into the nuance of a chaotic situation.

My hope is in places where it doesn't appear that "i get it"... .that you can spend some time thinking through your point of view.  Perhaps it will "sharpen" your argument or objection or perhaps it will soften it.

1.  Use of the C word.  Horrible stuff.  My take is that the P is saying that your husband does "horrible stuff", including the use of the C word, and that chances of "making" him stop that are low (given where your husband is at now).  There is also a chance that your husband tried something "new and inflammatory" to get some kind of reaction/change.  It appears to me he got one.  

I'm also questioning how the "tech" allowed such personal information (address, facebook... .etc etc) to be known by the patient).   Remember... .I'm a structure and boundaries guy.  Honestly, I was not shocked at use of the C word (that's what they do)... .I was flabbergasted that a member of a mental health team would provide a patient personal information.  But... that's just me... .there very well could be good... .therapeutic reasons to do so... that are escaping me at the moment.

Again... horrible stuff... .I'm not at all saying given anyone a pass... .but I am suggesting that this is what a seriously disordered person does.  (look at other things that he has done from time to time)

AND... .that there can be improvement, but most improvement comes in a zig zag fashion.  3 forward 1 back 1 more back 1 forward, 4 forward 5 back... .(you get the picture).  The hope is that over years... .there is more back than forward.

   

Let's look at this another way.  What do you think would have been the appropriate thing for the P to do in the "c word situation"?  What do you think your hubby would have done in response, should the P have taken exactly the course of action that you wanted.

I'll address the rest of the post later.

I'm focusing on the "C word incident" because it appears to me that is the point of departure where you and the P really diverged... .instead of coming together around a treatment plan.

Do I have that right?  If not please point me to the "point of departure".  It does appear to me that "everything changed" around the C word incident, especially from the point of view of the "structure" of the team that was providing care.

   

FF

So if the three points of the Karpman drama triangle are, victim, persecutor, rescuer, the way off the triangle or out of the triangle is to not accept any of these roles.

Stepping into the center of triangle means we change the role we play.

and this is what happens when I try to post from my smart phone.   


Let me try this again:

When you say:
do you mean to suggest that the 24/7 care was a permanent condition?  I am wondering about the level of self determination that your H has regarding his mental health care.

I understand that family and household support is often crucial for sustained long term recovery.  I also get it is hard to do.   

You mentioned triangulation several times so I am assuming that you are familiar with the Karpman drama triangle.   There is some good stuff on this site about it. 
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle (https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle)

Like I tried to say before there are three points on the Karpman drama triangle.

The Persecutor - this is your fault,  you are not okay but I am so I am going to tell you what to do.

The Victim - I'm not okay and it's not my fault.   I'm blameless it's up to someone else to be responsible.

The Rescuer - You are not okay but I am nice and will fix this for you.

I am seeing a lot of Karpman Drama Triangles in the interactions you report in the mental health team.


and your H agreed with this then?

When I read what happened with the tech and the C word, I see the drama triangle play out like this,   the tech starts on the triangle in the victim role,... she is justifiably upset... .however it is her job to 'fix' this,  H is the persecutor at the moment... .I lose the thread for a while but eventually you slip into the role of rescuer.   The tech quits but you hire her back in another role in the household.    Most of us here have over developed needs to rescue... .   I sure do.   Somehow or another the P is involved in the conversation,... .did your H self disclose?   Did the tech report the incident as abusive?   And the P ends up as Persecutor towards you and the tech and the rescuer towards your H.   That puts your husband in Victim role which he is probably more comfortable in.   but it also limits his ability to be responsible for his own actions.  where I get baffled is the man is 41 years old,  surely he has some level of understanding that using the C word is inappropriate.   


I'm struggling with this a little bit.   how did you envision this playing out?   and what role did you see yourself in here?

what I see in the mental health team is people moving around the triangle trying to get their voices heard and their needs met.

I am going to suggest that you try and get off this triangle.  at all costs.

there is a lot of literature about how to get off the triangle,... some people say move in to a more coaching, challenging, surviving/thriving role.   

other people say move out off the triangle to a more assertive, caring, vulnerable role.   

either way the answer is not to participate in the triangle as either a persecutor, victim or rescuer.

FWIW, I was never involved in my partners medication, getting it, tracking it,... .taking it... .all of that was up to her.   Frequently if there was a medication change she would tell me in case of side effects.   Sometimes I would offer reminders about diet, sleep and alcohol because she would honestly forget which interacted with what.     I never spoke to her psychiatrist, sent a text or an email.    That was her doctor and any communication went through her.    We had a 'map' agreed upon before of what I could and would do in the event of a psychotic break.   I can't take credit for the map idea, I heard that one on the internet.    Those boundaries afforded her the opportunity to recover in her own way at her own pace.   I am personally convinced that if those boundaries were not there we would have ended up in a situation much like you describe, with the various mental health providers at logger heads.

my two cents.

'ducks

I'm living out the fantasies I had as an 8 year old. Horses, however, are way more work than I'd realized, and goats, well, goats are just plain bad. I love them, but they are such opportunistic eaters that they all now look like African pygmy goats (think beer barrel) instead of Nigerian Dwarf (think deer.)

Her take is that bad behavior comes from a diseased mind. Fix the diseased mind, and the behavior improves. To me, this suggests she has too low an expectation on my H. I think he's capable of better behavior.


No, it wasn't the tech whose information was put on FB; it was the psychiatrist's, and what I was getting at was, for me, there's a sense of hypocrisy, that I am supposed to get used to being called the c-word, but that she took offense at being called the K-word, and she objected to a few more things he'd written about her, and she asked him to take it down.


I completely agree. Seriously disordered people behave pretty badly. I had wanted to come together as a team, so that my husband could 1) not feel ashamed of what he'd done, 2) take responsibility, and 3) apologize. I think she let him down therapeutically by not calling him out on his behavior. This is a man who has rarely had to face consequences for his behavior.

This is why I'm so distressed with P. We were moving forward. That movement forward had always zig zagged, but we have now moved backward so far that I don't think he'll regain the ground he's lost.

I think she should have called my H out on his behavior. I think she should have let him know that it was inappropriate. I think his T should have asked my H how it could be handled. I think P should have used the behavior as an opportunity for my H to learn.

Please understand I have huge sympathy and empathy for my H. I also believe he is shame based, and I think instead of helping him get through the shame of what he'd done, she provided tacit approval for the behavior.

The P never liked the tech, always said the tech's job was cushy and that all she did was smoke cigarettes, exact phrasing of what my H had said about her.

When I pull back from all of this, I think I can fairly and accurately say that the P has crossed several boundaries and has lost her professional objectivity.

Yes, you have this right; however, I think there was tension before that. I am coming from a position that if meds could have made my H better, they'd have worked years and years ago, and that what we are now seeing is a personality disorder, and that there needs to be some level of consequence for his behavior.
She is coming from a medical POV--that if she fixes the diseased brain the behavior will lessen or disappear.
In December 2016, my H wrote the most beautiful post about being cigarette free, benzo free, and how he was going to now work on getting off the rest of the psychotropic drugs.
He was excited about the future, and he was fairly happy. He'd been on medical cannabis for 2 months at that time.
And then the c-word incident happened. Then he stopped working with his T, started working only with his P.
Then P increased his psychotropic drugs, then she gave him access to an entire month's supply, so he could go out of state--no plan where he was staying, no guarantee I'd even know where he was.
Now he's back on cigarettes, doesn't interact with me, attacked both me and his dad on FB.
Mostly I feel sad about my H and angry with the P.
[/quote]


   

FF

[/quote]

 Thanks for taking so much time with me. It helps when I'm asked to further explain why I think how I think. And our backgrounds are very different. I was always a hippie, an artist, a writer. Hierarchy doesn't fit with that kind of lifestyle. I was also a writing instructor, who liked horseshoe shaped classrooms, wanted students to call me by first name, if they were comfortable with that, and I wanted them to believe I was sincere when I told them I wanted to read what they wrote.

Thanks again for taking so much time and energy with me.
TMD

So... .I'm glad we understand each other better... .neither POV are right/wrong... .but they are different.

I'm talking to you, not your P, so (for now)... .I'm going to trust that the P was acting in accordance with her board certifications and training... .and her medical experience.

Also understand that when you have several disciplines working together... .toes will be stepped on and everyone needs to "give the benefit of the doubt".

I have personally been in treatment by a couple P's (meds to help me sleep due to PTSD... sleeping part is since resolved) and I've worked with Ps in a healthcare team when I was in the military.  Essentially when I was skipper of my shore commands I was "dual hatted" as the "clinic director".  So I had "administrative" authority over the medical team, but would never push any treatment options... but was very familiar.

So... .not sure how many Ps that you have been around... .but nothing you have said has raised any eyebrows on me.  I can certainly understand how you are frustrated.

I would also hope you understand that ultimately your hubby is responsible for his behavior... .your P is not.  As long as she is within her guidelines... .which, so far, it appears she is.

Please don't be shocked that a MD will treat an issue as a medical problem.

A psychologist will likely push "talk therapy".

A carpenter will likely use a hammer and nails... (I think you get the picture)

I would hope that if there is a future with the P that you could approach it like this.

"What are you seeing that leads you to believe my hubby managing his own meds is a good step?"

Also realize that an MD is at heart a scientist and will make a move and then collect data to inform the next move.  It very well may be that the P will use this as a "tried that and it didn't work" thing. 

We'll never know the outcome of a different course of action... .  If you want to press for a different course... .go in with metrics... stay away from feelings. 

The last x number of times we faced this we did y.  The outcome was consistent in z of those times with 1 time that was weird.

Mixing the world of a scientist and "feelings" can be hard... .do your best!

Hang in there.  I'll write more later.

FF

Thanks, FF and thanks, Ducks!
  Based on what you have written to me, I've done a couple things:

  1) I realized I was inside the drama triangle: a) I was feeling victimized by P; b) I was perceived by H that whatever I did or said I was persecuting him. So... .
  2) I talked with my coach yesterday, who advised a few things, but basically she gave me a very good lead on The Empowerment Dynamic (TED), which is a book that suggests that "victims" begin looking at ways of becoming "creators." And persecutors can look at themselves as "challengers."
  3) Based on what she discussed, I'm ordering the book to get more info. However, immediately I focused the energy I had for P into how I could step out of feeling betrayed, et. al, and focus that energy on my own work.
  4) I cannot step out of how my H perceives me, so that leaves me with "playing nice" and being polite, keeping out of his illnesses completely. (An aside: I already messed up on that one when he mentioned how miserable he was in an email. I said, it sounds horrible and I was sorry. I should have said, "It sounds rough, but I know you'll be able to take care of it."

So that's where I am today. This forum is really helpful now that I'm on the right thread.

Write more later,
TMD

I would hope you would minimize the "emotion" in email. 

"Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  I'm heading to  xyz coffee shop today at 1 if you want to chat... I'm up for listening."

Critical point.  You go enjoy a drink... hang out for a while... then go.  If it seems like he makes a reasonable reschedule attempt... .perhaps do that.  But don't "go round and round" to accommodate him.

Big picture:  You are living your life and being clear about "open doors" and "pathways" to relationship.  He gets decide to take advantage or not.  Not up to you to convince him or explain this.

FF

First of all thanks for the game 2048.   I’ve enjoyed it.

As to


 I have a slightly different take on this than FF does.    I think it’s excellent that you recognized how your response could have reinforced his victimhood and a great insight that you could answer in more empowering ways.    You second thought was almost text book in how to reply in ways that can move other people off their points in the drama triangle.    I think you should give yourself a lot of credit,  in a very short people of time, during a period of emotional stress you are having some significant breakthroughs.

There are techniques and tips on how to frame a response in such a way to invite people to give up their position on the drama triangle.   I think this is a two thumbs up approach.    |iiii  |iiii

I also see the invite out to coffee differently.   For what you’ve said he is still off his medication,   he is still self-medicating with nicotine and possibly something else.   and you haven’t mentioned that he has made any overtures towards contact…...       The likelihood that he is still ‘amped up’…. Is pretty good,… it does take people who are organized on the BPD/NPD level longer to return to emotional baseline.

Obviously one size does not fit all,... .each of us is a fully complex human with a myriad of different likes and dislikes.   You are the best judge of what is right for you.

In the example you gave above….how miserable he is…. if you went with your second thought the 'It sounds rough, but I know you'll be able to take care of it'... .Staying with that thought you could try….  do you want me to listen while you problem solve?    He might be still so dysregulated that he can’t process that yet…...   and it might take many repeats of a similar idea before he is receptive to it.

I have a friend who is an absolute wizard at active listening.   I wish I could do it the way she does.   She has this great ability to help me solve a problem I didn’t even realize I had.   Mostly she pays attention.   Serious attention and then paraphrases back the message she thought she heard.    It’s a skill I am working on.   You might try a little active listening... .

I'm glad you've found this forum helpful.   somebody was here for me on the day I showed up in crisis... .it's nice to be able to pay it forward.

'ducks

My two cents,