BPDFamily.com

I don't know where to begin. My husband and I have been married for 26 years and in marriage counseling for 18 months. He was always very extreme and I had low self esteem. Perfect combination mbination right? About a year after our marriage we both became Christians and it really helped. There were still blow ups of course but it seemed like he was really trying. I already had a child and we had 4 more. He loves our kids when they are little then seems to resent them when they are old enough to develop interest outside of him. For the last 15 or so years things got progressively worse. More and more blow ups. He never hit me but would the kids sometimes. I truly believe in discipline but not the raging fits he would throw. Things really came to a head 18 months ago. I took my last 2 kids at home and left. He was so shocked that we were unhappy. It took many people talking with home for him to realize that what he was doing was abuse. My daughter really suffered. I was devastated when I took her to counseling and listened to her fears. She was 14 at the time. She had been having the same recurring nightmares for a couple of years and could hardly sleep. Our counselor feels she has a form of ptsd. She is doing so much better now. We have (including my husband) all been seeing a Christian counselor for the past 18 months. She has been helping me understand that it's ok to stand up for myself and my kids. It sounds so dumb when I say it out loud. To admit that someone actually had to teach me something so basic but decades of fear and uncertainty really makes you question what is normal. Anyway - My husband really threw himself into counseling and she helped him understand that his childhood brought him many injuries (his father was an abusive alcoholic) and that he was truly harming his family. He seemed so much better that after 6 months the kids and I moved back in. Things were good again for about 6 months hut have been steadily getting worse again. He constantly accuses me of putting the kids before him. Says I don't care about him anymore. He has told our kids that he wishes they weren't born. He is angry now if I do anything that doesn't include him if he is home. Our counselor now feels that he has BPD. She hasn't shared that with him yet but is helping me to understand. I have been reading the Stop Walking on Eggshells book and can't believe how dead on it is! It is like reading about my life. I am working so hard on trying to balance what is ok for me and the kids, what is biblical and what is ok for my husband. It is beginning to feel like we need to leave again. I just know that we can't bounce in and out again. If we leave again it will be for good so I am trying to be so careful with this decision.

Hi Learn each day,

*welcome*


That line about uncertainty conjured old memories of my exuBPDw.

I'd like to welcome you to the group, I'm glad that you've found us there is hope.

26 years is a long history, I can understand how difficult that would be not knowing that it could BPD all these years. We're not doctors and can't diagnose, only a professional can do that! What we can look at are borderline personality traits.

I'd suggest to read as much as you can about BPD, it will do a couple of things for you, it will normalize the disorder and you can learn to depersonalize the behaviours, there's a reason why he behaves the way that he does, it's not personal to you.

You said that he has low self esteem, pwBPD have low self esteem, feel low self worth, self loath and are hyper critical with themselves, I'd like to think that as critical and rigid as my exuBPDw is towards me, that represents a window for me to get a sense of what her internal dialogue is, can you imagine being as hyper critical with yourself as a pwBPD. There are some communication tools on the staying board that can help you, a pwBPD need a lot of validation, feelings are facts to a pwBPD whereas feelings are followed by facts for non's, validate his feelings first and package your truth behind that.

Thinking about separation can be difficult, there's rush at the moment, I just want to let you know that you're not alone, we'll walk with you through this. This is a place where we can share our thoughts and feelings openly without being judged or invalidate for having thoughts thoughts and feelings.

Thank you Mutt.

It does help to read these posts. I question so often if I have any idea of what "normal" is anymore.

He had a fit Saturday because I had to leave to drop the dog of to be groomed. He couldn't believe that I would take time away from him to do something's my. I stood my ground and tried to hold my boundaries but later question if I am being selfish. So silly.

He hates any time I invest in our kids or my jobs or church. Anything that takes my attention from him. He wants sex at least 3 times a week and thinks he should be able to do anything he wants sexually with me - even if I'm uncomfortable with it. Anything that doesn't fall in line with these rules men's I don't care about him. I'm not willing to go back to this way of living.

He seems unwilling to continue counseling unless I meet these demands. I am trying to give him a little more time but have been clear my feelings.

So sad about it all. This sharing really helps.

Has he expressed these things to the counselor?

Is he doing counseling by himself as well as with you?

What are your counselors credentials?

FF

Yes he has expressed these things to our counselor.

Yes he goes to individual counseling with the same counselor.

We each go individually and again together.

Our counselor has said that my husband has hit a point where he doesn't appear to want to change. She has shared with me that she really wants me to hold my ground and stay firm about my needs and our children's' needs. That he is beginning to be abusive again. She said s very kind to my husband but also very clear with him about what love should look like. She has been suspecting that he is BPD lately. I can't remember what her credentials are but feel very comfortable with her. My husband did as well for unite awhile but now that he seems to be reverting to his old ways he is very angry towards her and accuses her of being on "my side".

All very frustrating.

Do you guys use the Bible in counseling? 

I am devout Christian and have experienced secular and Christian counseling.

My first reaction is to listen to your husband only after he reads and presents the Biblical principal he wants to talk about and you guys pray for the Holy Spirit to help guide you.

Then listen.  Ask how he sees a passage of scripture... .vice asking what he thinks.  Ask how the scripture informs his thinking.

Likely best to discuss this with counselor before implementing.

What good can come of a "you have to give me the sex I want" conversation without reading about love being patient... .kind... .etc.

Thoughts?

FF

 Yes. I feel so blessed that our counselor is a Christian as well. She has worked with him for over a year on what love looks like through Christ. We have gone over 1 Corinthians 13 so many times.  He is so hateful and unloving to our children. He justifies that behavior with the Old Testament. Whenever we try and focus on scripture about what love really is and how Christ loves us, he just wants to go back to scriptIre  that justifies a more vengeful outlook. He feels that everything is my fault because I am not submissive enough.  So much of it is my own fault. I definitely developed codependent tendencies. Anytime I would try and think of my own needs I would feel that I was being selfish. I always assumed that a good Christian wife would give everything. I never held him accountable for any of his actions.  I would just pray and ask God to help give me a loving and forgiving spirit.  Eventually I feel that God showed me through scripture and through my children that I was really confusing what being a Christian wife is.  I was actually helping him be a worse and worse Christian husband and father as time went on by allowing his bad behavior.

 Last year when I left he completely crumbled. He sought God with his whole heart. He fully embraced everything scripture had to say about what love is.   After six months of Christian counseling apart and together the children and I moved back home.   He is now back to his old ways of trying to use scripture as a weapon against us.  Three of our sons are grown man. We still have a teenage son and a teenage daughter at home. When he gets in an argument with our grown sons now they try to disengage but he feels so triggered and so justified in his anger that he will end up  asking them to step outside and fight. So Far there has been no physical violence since we have been back but I feel my heart and spirit crumbling daily.

 I guess if I am brutally honest (and I am ashamed to admit this) we have stopped studying the Bible together.  I still study myself individually. I guess I have stopped initiating us studying together because it always and with an argument. Even when we pray first. On a very rare occasion he will seem  moved. But usually he just wants to look at  whatever sections of scripture he feels will support his opinions.  For example;  he will completely skip the sections of loving your wife as Christ loves the church but focus on the marriage bed being undefiled. He will use that to try to prove that he should be able to do whatever he wants to me in bed.  I guess that I have grown to feel that my spirit can barely take this form of Bible study with him.  I guess I really need to give this more prayer and consider trying to study with him again. 

 In counseling we will talk about white loving scripture looks like to each other but he always focuses on what he thinks it should mean for me instead of himself.

OK... .again... .I'm just putting out ideas here. 

Consider this.

You are more than willing to listen to him "lead" the family, as a Christian head of household should.  So, in his leading he will bring forth an idea.  Starting with the Biblical basis and present what that looks like.

You listen... .perhaps ask clarifying questions... .then you are off to study.

You come back with questions, he studies Bible and gives his answers to your questions as asked... .not as he wanted you to ask.

So... .he "goes old testament".  You ask... "How does Christ's death and resurrection inform your leading in this matter... "

fictional... but likely response

Blah blah blah it doesn't matter... the Bible says this, therefore you do this... no further discussion blah blah blah my wife needs to submit.

At this point... .you are really out of this.  I would leave this up to pastors and the counselor. 

   

My wife has a "holier than thou streak" in her... .very very tough.  We have 8 kids.  She wants to "obey" the Bible and "live a perfect life"

We used to go round and round about this... .  I have a much easier go of it than you do, because a strict Biblical reading would say that if your husband asks you to do something, you should do it... .unless he is asking you to sin.

I use a "strict reading" to help stabilize my family, even though I don't personally believe such a strict interpretation.  When dealing with pwBPD you need to be "pragmatic".  Find a pathway to stability.

Please google Leslie Vernick.  She strikes me as a wise Christian Counselor.  Most of her readers tend to be women in your situation.  I don't want to give blanket approval to "everything" she says... .but it all should be food for thought and prayer.

More later.

Oh... .can you pick a recent "rage" and give a detailed he said she said starting before the rage.  I have an idea of what is going on... .but don't want to assume. 

FF 

 I will post some examples of his more recent blowups. Before our separation last year I would definitely call his blowups true rages. He never hit me but he would hit the kids and anger. He used to bend over and get right in my face and spit as he screamed.  Since our separation last year and reconciliation he doesn't really rage the way he used to. Now it feels like there is a general constant underlying anger. He gets very mad and yells but doesn't really rage the way he use to. He will claim that he isn't mad but you can clearly tell he is.

2 weeks ago:
Gary started talking about disciplining children at his moms house. The people there were him, me, his mom, Alden(22 y/o son), Ethan(16 y/o son), Gracie(15 y/o daughter) and Haley(16 y/o great niece).  Gary started out joking but then quickly got mad. He was talking about how children used to be spanked and smacked in the mouth and beat him with a switch. He was talking about how his mother used to smack him in the mouth and how his grandmother used to use a switch on him. He looked around the room and said none of you kids have ever gotten a switch. Alden disagreed with him. Alden wasn't mad. He was even kind of laughing about it. He started telling him about a time that Gary made him go out to the tree that they named old Bessie and break a stick off of it. He said that he trimmed the bark off and whipped him with it. Alden wasn't mad he was just telling him that it happened. Gary got really mad and started saying that Alden was a liar. He was saying that Alden was just trying to make him look bad.  I'm not sure why he was so concerned about that making him look bad. He has done so much worse than that in the past.  Neither of them seemed to be able to just drop it. Gary said that Alden wasn't allowed to drive our old van anymore. He told handover the key. Alden is still in college and drives our old van. I told him that wasn't fair because all that Alden was doing was telling him something that he believed happened.  He gets very angry when he thinks I'm taking the children's side against him.  One of his biggest accusations against me is that I put the children before him. Gary stood up and was walking and yelling and told Alden that they should go outside and he would get a switch and beat him with it and then see if he really remembers getting beat like that. Alden said "if you beat me with a switch it won't be good"  Gary took that as a definite threat. I tried to explain that no 22-year-old is going to say "sure let's go outside so you can beat me"  it ended up with Gary telling Alden they should go outside and fight each other. Once again the children had to be more mature then him and try to defuse the situation.

Saturday:
Made an appointment to have the dog groomed. Only time they had was Sat @ 5.

Gary got mad when we left because I made the appt for a Saturday.  He is off work from Saturday morning until Tuesday evening. He doesn't feel like the children or I should ever plan anything on the days that he is home.  It was just to drop her off. They call when she is done. He wanted to know why I didn't make it for another day. I told him that her nails are about to rip up the furniture and that was the soonest they could get her in. We left. He called my phone and left a long complaining message about how I must not ever want to be around him. He told me to call him back and let him know if I want a divorce.

Sunday:
We were going to celebrate Ethan and my sister's birthdays after church at my mom's. Gary hates to celebrate other peoples birthdays. He says it's a waste of time.

After church I was talking to Mitchell (our family minister) about Ethan's birthday and upcoming plans with the youth group. Gary was sitting there. We got to talking about the group chat that a few parents and kids have to discuss times of events and such. Mitchell said "thank you" to me for answering some of the questions the kids asked. I told him no problem.  After he walked away Gary started saying that I was way too involved with the youth group. I told him that answering a few texts hardly make me "over involved". He said that it's Mitchell's job and I shouldn't do it. I told him that I felt that it is all adults calling to help and mentor our youth. (Gary used to feel that way too until he decided I put the kids before him) As a family we used to plan lots of fun events as all of our kids went through our youth group.  He got mad and said that it was just another example of me putting the kids before him. I told him that I didn't understand that because it doesn't effect him at all. It takes none of my time from him. He said he was paying for it. We were pulled up to my mom's by then.  I told him that I wanted to stop the conversation and going to my moms. He said no we would finish it now. I obeyed. He said that he was going to stop paying for any cell phones and then see how I liked it. I told him that I can't understand how me answering a few texts in a group chat when he wasn't even home is me putting him second.

Sorry this is so long.

Before continuing... .read the lesson below.


https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating


You will often hear that "validation" is important.  And it is.  However... .AVOIDING invalidation is much more important than validating.  Figure it takes 10 validations to "get rid" of one "invalidation".  It is really that important.

Understand that reality is important... .FEELINGS are much more important... .much!

I'm going to wrap up this response and let you consider "invalidation".  I also want to challenge you to figure out where you did that in your story.  I noticed it right away... .

FF

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=106107

Avoiding invalidation is number 1.  This is number 2.

I want you to read the lesson and then read your story again... .

Look for places where your hubby "tossed" an opportunity at you to argue... .not only did you catch it... .bu you tossed it back at him... .

Many times our "arguments" are "invalidating"... .but not always.

You'll just have to play around with your thinking to understand if you avoid invalidation by avoiding arguments... .or if you avoid invalidation... .thereby avoiding most arguments.

So... .tell me about a place where you "picked it up" and invalidated him.

Remember... .many of the things are "counter-intuitive". 

In my relationship, you would have thought that proving that I didn't father a child out of wedlock was a good thing... .right?  Or proving that I didn't sleep with someone... .or that I didn't even know some woman (that I was supposed to be pining after like there is no tomorrow... .)

Remember... .counter-intuitive.

FF

 I believe I understand what you are saying. These are things that I have definitely worked on in the past and now. We have had many long talks in counseling and by ourselves about his feelings. I have made plenty of statements like "I understand that you feel that I'm putting the children ahead of you. Please help me understand what that looks like to you".  He will respond with statements like "if you can't see it then I can't explain it to you " Or " if you can't figure it out you are too far gone"  He usually just ends up more angry. Many nights he will try to keep me awake all night long talking. He knows I have to wake up very early in the morning and that it exhausts me.  I will say things like "I understand this is very important to you so it is important to me too. I would love to talk to you about this tomorrow when I have had a good night sleep" If I try to stop talking he will poke me in the shoulder over and over until I am sure to stay awake.

 Do I always say things the right way? No. I have definitely tried a more validating response in the past. I don't always do it the right way I'm sure. I guess it boils down to the fact that I am just so tired so much of the time now.  It feels like too much work anymore to constantly be measuring every word that I say. To be on constant alert to his feelings and moods. To always make sure I'm saying just the right thing.   I know at times that my responses make the situation worse. I pray about it and continually read.

 I may be oversensitive to it as well. So much of our past has been so ugly.   I used to take complete responsibility for all of his emotions and feelings. I'm trying so hard not to do that anymore that it may be making me over sensitive to things.  Sometimes it just feels like the relationship is sucking my very soul out of me.  I have a heart condition, hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, and  it causes me to have arrhythmias. I will have runs of ventricular tachycardia and occasionally ventricular fibrillation. I have an implanted cardiac  defibrillator so these aren't as lethal to me as they could be. Some of the more stressful days with my husband feel like they lead to more  arrhythmias.

 Maybe this is all justification on my part for feeling so down. I guess I'm not sure how much harder I'm willing to work which makes me feel so guilty.  I feel so abnormal so many days. Like I may not be able to trust my own feelings. Maybe my heart is already to broken.

     

I need some metrics.  How often does your hubby keep you up at night?  When is the last time this happened?

Perhaps I'm going to push a bit hard here... .I've never give a "run" message before.   I think it may be justified in this case. (pending metrics)

Your husband needs to let you have a good night sleep... .reliably... .or you don't need to live with him.  Period.

I've got several sleep disorders and this was an issue I had to "go to the mat" over.  My wife hasn't woken me up (for BPDish reasons) in over a year. 

Have you had a sleep study done?  Are there any other serious medical things going on, other than the heart issues you have mentioned.


Have you read Dobson "love must be tough"

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Love-Must-Be-Tough-New-Hope-for-Marriages-in-Crisis/5980547?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227006111441&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=53112669648&wl4=pla-75197785968&wl5=9007525&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla_with_promotion&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=5980547&wl13=&veh=sem

If not... please get a copy.  Don't let your hubby see it.

Listen... .big picture stuff here.  I appreciate that you care about and would like to heal your marriage.  Many of us put others first... .marriages first and our health got lost... .somewhere.

I'm going to hush and let you respond so I can quantify this, but... .I and many others have dealt with night fights... .they are no good... .for anyone... .let alone someone with serious medical conditions.

I'll be back later to check on the "metrics"

FF

The all night list of complaints doesn't happen very often. Maybe once a month or so. The last time was July 9th - had to check my diary. (I have found that venting to my diary helps since I don't vent at him) I got 15 minutes of sleep that night then went to church. The next day when he wanted to finish "our talk" I tried my best to be accommodating but about 2 hours into it I just burst into tears of exhaustion. I was sobbing. He seemed oddly satisfied that I was so effected. As if he took it to mean that I really cared instead of being on the brink of emotional  collapse and physical exhaustion. It did make him stop though. It is easy for him to stay up because he works an overnight shift 4 nights/week. He has gotten used to

He has gotten used to staying up all night and sleeping all day. I can't seem to sleep late. My body wakes me early. Sometimes with a panicked feeling then I can't go back to sleep.

 My heart condition is considered fairly serious. Sometimes after a very emotional day my heart will feel like it can't handle the extra adrenaline and will flip-flop (a term I used before I knew it was ( ventricular tachycardia) for a few days. Here is a better description from Mayo:
www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hypertrophic-cardiomyopathy/home/ovc-20122102
My condition includes the lethal  arrhythmia described at the end. I have a great  cardiologist who specializes in electrophysiology. My ICD helps ensure that I will get a "kick start" if needed so I don't focus on this much. Besides waking sometimes with a panicked feeling, I am pretty healthy.

 In all fairness to my husband, I am the one who has changed the most. I have worked so hard to give up my codependent tendencies. I have tried to stay loving and respectful while still holding strong to my boundaries.  This seems to be setting him backwards. It is really beginning to feel like the bad old days. This makes me feel so fearful. I've worked so hard at not being scared so these feelings coming back make me think it may be time to do something more drastic. It feels like it is just a matter of time before his threats turn into actions from the past. Things like kicking me out of the car, punching our son when he was a teen, kicking one son out of the house, forcing our car off the road, etc. etc.  when I list these things out loud I feel so much shame. Shame that I put up with that behavior for so long. Shame that I didn't protect my children better.  Maybe it is good for me to look backwards so that I know where I will never be willing to be again. Maybe looking backwards makes me unwilling to give him a shot of the future? Maybe I can't really trust my feelings? I wish I knew... .

In fairness to both of you.  Likely best to focus on behavior since starting to live together again.

Use the distant memories to help you remember how far you have come towards healthy.

I am still concerned about the night issues... .although not as much as Before.

Have you read the Dobson book?

Does your cardiologist know about relationship stress.

Please take some time and look at how far you have come.  There is hope.

FF

I haven't read the Dobson book. Hubby and I have bothread Homecoming because at first our counselor thought that he only had abandonment and narcissistic  issues - besides MY obvious codependent issues. I have read Boundaries and Boundaries in Marriage, which REALLY helped me. I am now reading Stop Walking on Eggshells. Wow this book rings so true for me. Much more then anything else I have read. Some of the stories sound like someone got ahold of my diary! I will look up the Dobson book you have suggested.

 Thank you for the advice on not looking at the past and focusing on current behavior. I am truly confused about what to focus on sometimes so that does help.  I guess, for me, his behavior lately has felt like the type of behavior that always led to a huge blowup. The anger is still there but the blowups aren't as violent.

 My cardiologist doesn't really know about any of the emotional stress.   

Thank you.

Dobson book is just for you. 

It will help you learn to communicate your choice about the marriage you are going to lead.  Essentially, the book will help you become "hard to get" again.  It will help your hubby learn to "respect" you again.

More importantly... .it will help you know that you should be respected... .and you should be "hard to get".

And that your hubby may choose to be by himself... .he may choose to be with another woman that is "easy"... .or "let's him do what he wants"

Here is my "big picture" with you.  You are starting to "peek around the corner" at what BPDish behavior is all about.  You are starting to understand that many of the "normal" ways of a relationship are actually harmful or feed a bad dynamic for BPDish types.

This is going to be like learning a foreign language.

Consider the late night stuff.  In any normal marriage... .one spouse freaks out and needs to talk at night.  The other spouse brews a couple cups of tea and they talk the best they can... .  When the spouse in need is able to get some sleep... .the both go to sleep.  Perhaps problem solve more the next day.

Years later the spouse in need still remembers the act of love and the dreary/sleepy eyes of the spouse that stayed up as they trudge off to work... .yawning.

Most "normal" people understand that love is (many times) an action that is uncomfortable... .so they  stay up.

Fast forward to your situation.  I think you understand that your hubby can't be filled up with your love, because he has a hole in the bottom of his "love bucket".  For a lot of his life he has danced, wiggled and done various gymnastics to make it seem to him and others that he is intact and others are at fault for his feelings.

Your job is not to convince him of this.  Your job is to let him deal with his "love bucket".  Or not deal with it.  Respect his choice either way.

Letting him do this is an act of love, even though he won't "feel" that way. 

More later

FF

So I finished Stop Walking on Eggshells & Love Must be Tough. The Eggshells book was amazing. I wish I had read it years ago. The Love Must be Tough book was pretty good too but not as relatable for me. I have already been working on my boundaries and infidelity hasn't been an issue thus far. Thank you for the advise about checking out Leslie Vernick. I am reading The Emotionaly Destructive Marriage (about 20% done) and it's pretty good.

No blow ups lately. Just some whining about me not loving him enough anymore but I can live with that for now. Hopefully he is learning what I am no longer willing to put up with for myself or our children - where my boundaries are.
Its all so hard and sad. It feels like in order to stay in this relationship I have to be willing at all times to not care if it's over. Can that really be love? The mentality healthier I get the less I even like him let alone love him

Learn Each Day,

I'm so glad to see you back and hear of the dedication to learning about the behaviors that you face in your r/s.   |iiii  

I'm sure you would agree that there are times we feel powerless about this BPD thing.  Knowledge is power, knowledge will help you take back power.  

SWOE was the book that opened my eyes.  A marriage counselor recommended it to me after my wife put on quite a show.

Vernick also has a website and blog.  She seems to combine scripture and psychology in a healthy way.  Check out Boundaries (and other books) by Townsend and Cloud.

Townsend and Cloud and Dobson don't particularly focus on BPD.  Especially in the way SWOE does.  I DO think they are good to set YOUR mindset for life and relationships.  Then you can evaluate their guidance in the light of tools/principles you have learned specifically for BPD.


A few more comments on Love Must be tough.  

Here is my take... .on what I would like YOU to take from that book and Dobsons work in general.  

Dobson focuses a lot on respect.  He talks about it in his own marriage, which seems to be a traditional Christian marriage.  Yet his wife would "respectfully" push back on Dobson when she perceived lack of respect.  Granted, it would be for minor transgressions.  (not calling to say he would be late for dinner... etc etc)

The principles are the same in our relationships, even though the examples are more extreme.

Respect goes both ways.

That means if you have communicated clearly... .several times... .and you pwBPD is still doing xyz.  You need to respect that as a decision on their part... .not "BPD talking".  :)on't give them a pass.  Let natural and logical consequences flow into their life and trust them to handle it.

Even if they do it badly.

Yes Love Must be tough is generally about a spouse having an affair.  Can you see substituting "rage" for "affair"?

A basic message of "Honey... .I'm not going to live with you and be raged at.  I value our marriage too much"

Clarity:  I'm not suggesting that anyone move out after a rage.  It's more about the pattern and if there is evidence or not if your pwBPD is actively working on owning their own stuff... .or if they are interested in blaming others for their rage.


FF

***

 Well scratch the whole no blowups lately. We just had a big one. I started out good. I started out validating what he was saying. I made lots of statements like " I understand that you feel like our children don't work hard enough".  Eventually I said "I'm going to have to end this conversation now because I'm not going to stand here and be cussed at or screamed at."  He started screaming that I better divorce him.

 I am ashamed to say that I eventually took the bait and got angry and return. I didn't cuss and scream but I did get animated.  I spent 25 years just taking everything that he had to say. I thought that being a good Christian wife met not fighting back.  I can't stay in a relationship if I don't feel like I can at least voice my opinion. I try not to tell him that he is wrong only that I have a different opinion. He hates that.  He is only interested in hearing "yes dear" he actually used to make me say "yes sir" before I left him last year. It's really humiliating to admit that I obeyed that kind of behavior. That's the past. The present is that he thinks our 2 youngest kokomo dis are horrible. He thinks the older one are sometimes too but mostly just the 2 left at home. He thinks they do stuff on purpose to make him mad so that he will blow up and then I'll leave. When our counselor explained that they are just young people and can't control how he acts he gets mad. He just got through screaming at me about how I am crippling them because they are so lazy and selfish. He told me that they take too
much of my attention from him. That I don't love him enough anymore. I know I should have reassured him that I still love him as much but instead I told him "the difference now is that I have an opinion and let you know when I don't agree." Completely set him off further. In his opinion I shouldn't get an opinion since I don't provide as much of the Family income as he does. I know I did that wrong. I have spent the last 12 months worked ng on better ways to respond! I guess the bottom line is that I am tired of always worrying about his feelings. Always trying to say everything just right. Learning that I am as valuable as he is was hard for me. Learning that I have a right to disagree was hard. Learning that is the s ok for him to get unhappy was hard. Now that I get these things learning to speak up but only in just the right way is really beginning to wear on me. When the kids and I came back last year it felt like he really wanted to own his stuff and get better. Now at counseling he just says "I don't rage anymore. That's good enough." He has s still as hateful he just doesn't scream it anymore - except for today. He tells our counselor that see her is Justin st a waste of time now. That I am the only one who needs help now. That I'm not working hard enough.

Bottom line is I'm just not sure I am up for this anymore. I don't know if I still want to work this hard. I don't see it ever really getting easier.

 Well here I am again crying over this marriage. Just when I think I'm too healthy to cry over this anymore here it is.

Crying is a healthy thing.


Let the tears flow... .  

My Hope is... next time you will cry sooner... .your feelings are precious.  Take care of them.

FF

Wow. Sorry for all the typos I was pretty upset.

I kept telling him that his words were really hurting me and that I needed to stop this conversation. He said then that means you want a divorce. I said no just some time to not be so upset. He said he is done with counseling because it isn't helping. I told him I am still going and I'm still working on me. He believes I am worse then before. I explained that I am working on sharing my feelings in a healthy and appropriate way. He said "Congratulations, now you're like every other ___ and crazy ass woman out there." He was yelling "its YOU that has a problem" as I turned my back. He punctuated it by poking his finger in my shoulder. I couldn't leave because he was in the way. I told him that I don't want him to touch me when he is angry. He kept yelling "what are you going to do about it?" I said "well I won't fight back but I would still like to stop talking." He kept going on and on. He said if I try to leave I better walk because the cars are in his name. He blocked my way to the door. Then blocked my way to the other door. I felt so helpless! I tried going around him but he wouldn't let me. I didn't don't want to physically touch him because I didn't want to give him an excuse to get more physical. All I could do was cry. So many different hurtful things. We had such a good time together last weekend but the bad times are weighing heavily now. I'm not sure the good times are worth it.

Aaaaaand... .another all-nighter

Did you have your phone with you?

Have you ever called 911 before? 

There are a couple ways to look at this. 

Pull out phone and first use phone to record with video.  Clearly state you want to leave.  Once you have it recorded that he is blocking you.  Call 911.

Check with your local sheriff and see if they do "text to 911".

That way you don't have to call... .it may not be as triggering

FF

My phone was in the kitchen. I couldn't get to it. I was a little scared but didn't really think he would hurt me. He definitely wasn't going to let me leave but I didn't think he would hit me. Still a big way he likes to intimidate with his size. When he finally let me out after I was crying I didn't know what to do. I probably should have gotten our 15 y/o daughter and left. I was thankful that she was in her room watching a movie. Clearly I didn't leave. He talked all night about how I needed to change. That I need to go ahead and have sex with him because he works all week. That I orchestrated the whole fight just so I wouldn't have to have sex with him. Wanted me to decide immediately if we were getting divorced or not. I told him that we needed to stop for the night so we could both pray and then talk later after we weren't so exhausted. He told me to go sleep on the couch. I was so relieved to do that. He of course followed me down. When I finally said I was going to shower at 7:30 this morning he didn't care. When I got out he told me he prayed and decided he was wrong about me crippling the kids - his original complaint of the evening. Said he was sorry. 14 hours of venom, bullying, hurting and hate later. Just like that he is ok. Now I am supposed to be too.

I know that now that everything is cooled down I need to talk to him about what happened. About what my boundaries are. I know I have to be strong and do it or I will just reinforce his bad behavior patterns. It's almost bedtime and he will expect me to be fine with everything and have sex with him. I'm just not sure how to do it. I need to share my feelings about how much he hurt me last night.  I should know. I guess I do know - I just don't want to provoke him again. My fear of that tells me that I definitely need more work on me

Just a quick update since I haven't posted in awhile. After the last raging allnighter we had counseling shortly afterward. I took the opportunity to set some firm boundaries. I clearly said that he is never to touch me in anyway in anger and that if I want to leave that he is not to block or otherwise stop me in any way. I agreed. Of course it may be different when he is raging next. He has had may angry times since then but not the violent episode like before. He has been verbally abusive to the kids and I am working on that.

An issue we are working on now is money. In the past he has always claimed to be the man of the house and in charge but always got too frustrated to actually pay bills. Like a child it always made him mad when he couldn't have what he wanted exactly when he wants it. Like any good codependent I took responsibility for that feeling and took care of all the bills. We had to file bankruptcy once because of a rental property we had and him having major back surgery and being off work for 6months due to that. He has always blamed me for that. We have been "broke" twice since then twice (no bankruptcy or anything-just no savings) since then. Those really are my fault. He would voice that I should tell him when we are low on money but anytime I would he would rage at me about it and decide that it was totally my fault. I tried for so long to keep everything juggled so that he could live how he wanted and still keep the bills paid. I was so dumb. Since our temporary separation last year he has threatened to cut us off several times. He has acted like taking all the bill paying away from me is some sort of punishment. I have encouraged him to take it all. He keeps dragging his feet but we finally opened him up an account with only his name on it that his check will go into. We are moving all the bills to come out of that account today. In the past he has always had the luxury of spending like a child and then haveing someone else to blame things on. Now he will be responsible for his own spending. This should create some tense situations ahead but is so important for me to do. I have been slowly taking away his "sticks" if that makes any sense. This was one of his big sticks. He has always thought that since he makes more money them me that he should be able to spend what he want and for me to make it work. Responsibility is about to beat on his door.

Joint counseling later today too. That is usually pretty tense.

With me luck

How did counseling go? 

I would encourage you to have a habit of keeping your cell phone on you at all times.  It took me a couple months to get that habit... .but I've been able to keep it up for a couple years now.

Hang in there.

FF

I am working on the phone thing. I know it is something I really need to do since it seems like I can't predict the blow ups.

He ended up going to counseling by himself. He hasn't been going as often as he used to. In the past we had individual sessions and "marriage" sessions. Our counselor indicated at my last appointment that hubby hadn't been coming very often anymore. I was pretty hopeful about his appointment because he usually seems much more kind and reflective afterwards. She is really good at gently pointing him to Christ. It hasn't helped much in the last 6 months or so but hope springs eternal. She has said lately that she doesn't see him wanting any sort of help. He feels that he is fine and doesn't need to change. She shares with me that the way he acts with the kids and says to them is abuse. I am wondering if she was a bit more firm with him yesterday about that topic. She usually just tries to encourage him to reflect on what our parenting goal is and what that looks like biblically.

He came home from counseling and immediately became mad that I we were going be leaving fairly soon. Even though he knew about it.

Our nephew (his sister's son) died six years ago and yesterday was the anniversary of it. SIL likes to do some kind of rememberance of his on that day so we were all going to meet at the cemetery and release balloons. She still grieves very hard for him. It really make hubby mad that she brings him up so often. Anyway I told him that this was his decision of wether to go or not but that the kids and I were going and then I was going to drop them off at church for youth group. They go every Monday night but he always acts surprised and mad when I take them. My kids love our church and our youth group. He works a strange shift and is home from Saturday morning to Tuesday night. He feels that since he is the man of the house that we shouldn't do anything during the times that he is home.

Anyway... .
Last night ended with him telling me that if I'm not willing to change then he is through. I just keep telling him that I love him and wish that he could feel that even if I choose to take the kids somewhere. He went on for hours about my shortcomings and telling me that he is ready for a divorce. When we got home I helped him get his banking set up and direct deposit for it. Showed him how to do the bills and then went to bed. He came up shortly after. He woke up this morning mad at me because I didn't offer to have sex with him. Like I am some machine with no feelings. That part really hurts. Who am I kidding... .it all really hurts. At least he wasn't trying to be physically intimidating last night in any way... . small steps.

I probably need to start talking to an attorney. I wont have health insurance because I am self employed so need to start working on that avenue as well. I know God hates divorce but I also think that he loves my kids and me more than the institution of marriage. I know he can forgive me for this I just pray that he will still use me.

Sad

Hey... .my goal is to give you Christian encouragement.  We all need that from time to time.  This is your time. 

Reflect on what God is showing/teaching you... .about you.  In fact, I will pray that your heart is even more tender to the leading of the Holy Spirit.  I will also pray for you to be granted wisdom and discernment.

     



I think a "flanking maneuver" is called for here... .address this... by addressing something else.

"Hey babe... .I'm interested in your thoughts on how we can come together around our kids spiritual development on (list dates or times)."

  I would not say "when you are home".  Try to "depersonalize" this a much as possible.

 


Please don't hear me say this is "your fault".  Please DO her me say you are RESPONSIBLE for your part in this.

I think you are invalidating him by the things you say.  He doesn't feel love... yet you tell him you love him. 

I know it's counter-intuitive... .but I would back away from saying lovey dovey things... .especially when he is worked up.



Invalidation

Also... .by suggesting he "should" or "Needs to" think something else... it is suggesting his current thoughts are bad... .or invalid... .

Well... they are... .but it doesn't mean you should say that.




Really need to find a way to nip this... .5 minutes.  Schedule time to discuss this later... .perhaps with counselor or pastor.


This is a bigger thing that I think you realize.  I'm really hoping you can find a way to give positive reinforcement here.

OK... .perhaps TMI... .but how often do you have sex with him.  How often do you say yes... .versus turn him down.

I'm trying to get an idea of "half the time"... .etc etc.




I'm 100% for being fully prepared.  It will give you confidence.

I also want to give you hope by pointing out there are lots of changes YOU can make... without your husbands agreement... .that will likely improve your relationship.

FF

Sex... .definitely his love language. Actually all physical contact. He wants my hand at church and while we're driving. He would have me sit right beside him all day and night if he could. I know to many that sounds romantic but it gets very old very fast. I try to be sweet and accommodating about it though because its a small thing and I know it means so much to him. Sex has been different lately. In the past we were very active. He has "rules of engagement" for sex. He says that I need to assume that he always wants sex therefor it is my job to initiate. There are rules for initiation too. In the past I have been a very "dutiful" wife and initiated wether I really wanted to or not. I have since let him know that when he is hurts my heart I have a hard time being intimate. We still have sex at least once a week (often more) but he says he wants out unless I have sex at least 3 times a week. For example... .last night after all the hurtful things he said and telling me he wants a divorce he apparently still expected sex. I didn't realize it of course but as soon as my alarm went off this morning he said that he was taking my name off another account since I couldn't be bothered to have sex with him last night.

To answer your question I rarely turn him down because he doesn't initiate it.

I really struggle with trying to shut my mind and heart off to have sex after he has been so unkind. He doesn't feel I have the right be that way because he feels the biblical message on this is that my body belongs to him and his to me.

Uggg... .double uggggg    

OK... .you and I are in a bit "of the same boat".  

My wife is "touch"... and bigtime.  It's a bit odd for me to write this... as most guys are horndogs (me too)... but my Psychologist labels my wife as "hypersexual".  So... .it's not unusual to have sex every day.  There have been times when she would "paint me black" and sleep in kids rooms or couch.  I really never worried much about it because she would come back wanting... .you know... .a piece of action.

In the past she has wanted to be able to rage/fight with me and at the snap of her fingers... .get naked and get it on.  Lucikly it's been a while since we've "been there" in our relationship

My Psychologist has also made a point emphatically to me that "most women" don't work that way.  In other words fighting and sex just don't mix, unless there is reconciliation and then "makeup sex".

"Makeup sex" used to be a big part of our stuff... .once I realize it was "fake makeup" and she had no intention of following through, I ended this practice.  It freaked her out for a while, and now this has faded away.  The biggest part of me ending it was no longer owning stuff that wasn't mine

We're obviously both very religious couples.  I also ended "asking for forgiveness" about 6 months ago.  I DO think it's good for a man to humble himself to his wife and be open about his struggles... .I think that should go both ways.  But... .what do you do when it's lopsided?

Anyway... .I didn't do so good with family leadership one day, we had a particularly bad eating out after church experience, primarily because I didn't "get ahead of it" by nipping some kid issues in the bud.  Nothing that was really a sin.  I just didn't do a good job as leader that day.  So... I asked forgiveness and prayer.

She laughed... .used the Lords name in vain and related a really weird story about what I was actually asking forgiveness for.  I Biblically "confronted" her on it once... she emphatically denied she laughed... that was her entire point... .that she never laughed.

So... .I did what was in my power... .which was "stop my part in that dance".

Back to sex and physical touch.

This has built up over a number of years... .so it's going to be very hard to undo... .but it's also possible.

Now... .what I am about to say is going to sound very manipulative... .and it is.  Nons have to be "pragmatic" about how they reach an end goal (for me a more stable household and relationship).

I think you need to use your husbands "touch thing" to your advantage.  Women do it all the time... . I fully realize this is not what you "want" to do, but I think if you can do it in a "friendly and alluring way"... .you can win a few battles.  

That... combined with firm boundaries when he crosses a line may just start retraining him some.

So... .he starts getting grumpy... .you swat him on the butt... .caress his big guns and in a friendly with a twinkle in your eye say "Now Bob... .you know that kind of talk is a turnoff to me... .I was wanting to go to bed early tonight so we'd have plenty of time... .I'm going to take a walk to cool down."

After the walk... .if he is in any way remorseful... .go with it... .rock his world (although not exactly with "his rules"... .).  There is a not so subtle message you need to start delivering in all parts of your life about who is in control, although you can see here that you are delivering that message in a "positive" way.

It's about mindset... .sex just happens to be a way you are communicating a new mindset to him.

If he ups the ante to threats... .firm boundaries.


There is a lot of other stuff to deal with here... .but I doubt it can be dealt with until the "big picture" is turned a bit and he generally understands that you are sexy when he is nice and unavailable when he is an ass.

Note... .I'm not saying he will "like" his knowledge... .but he will respect and understand it.

This is going to take leadership and hard work on your part... .likely you won't like it either.

Note:  I kinda do a similar thing in my r/s by "manipulating" the push/pull cycle.  My wife can't stand being "close" to me for weeks on end.  So, I've taken charge of this dynamic and keep her a bit at arms length with short periods of intense closeness.

Honestly... .I could understand many people saying what I'm doing is "not right" or "unethical"... .but... I say... .it works.  Perhaps someday it can change, for now I'll go with what actually works.

Thoughts?

FF

You know I think what you are suggesting would probably work. While I agree it seems manipulative it would achieve an end. Honestly I already feel manipulative in so many ways. Like some big plot. I would also describe my hubby as hyper sexual. He made sure everyone of our kids knew everything possible about sex way befor they wanted to know anything. Haha. Even just watching a tv program as a family get weird sometimes. He will make comments to the kids (not really kiids I guess at 15 & 17) like "look at her, she really wants it" or "oh she's about to get banged" or "she's a buttwhore". It is super offensive to both but especially my daughter. My son is better at saying thing like "that kind of grosses me out'.
But yes... .hypersexual in every way. EVERYTHING is sexual to him. I used to think that was just a man thing but now realize that its mostly him. I even see other men look at him really funny when he makes sexual comments. He really doesn't have many filters. Haha.

I think my struggle now is how these things make me feel about ME. I feel a bit nasty when I have to act in any sexual way as he starts to spiral. I have tried it in the past and it DOES work sometimes. Occasional he will rant about how I should be trying to make any rules about turn offs. Or accuse me of using sex as a weapon. Also, I know I can probably head something off but it takes SO much of shoving my spirit aside that it is very difficult. Does that make any sense?

I guess the bottom line is how much of this I can continue to do and still feel like an honest person to myself. I am not saying that it is wrong for you or that you aren't a good person - quite the opposite actually - but I think it is a bit different for the male role. Biologically it may be a bit easier for you to "turn it on" then me. From a religious perspective your wife can't really complain if you feel her behavior doesn't warrant sex or even firmly say that you are going for a walk.

Example: my hubby kindly read me all of Genesis 3 emphasizing verses 16 because I was leaving to do something and it made him mad. Or 1 Corinthians 7:4 if I try to hold a boundary on being hateful to me then mad that I don't initiate sex.

You see the difference? Maybe I am just tired of the "dance" and don't want to try any longer so am making excuses. It feels like I can't let go of the past anymore. All the ugly things are feeling like to much these days. When he is ugly now I have a hard time praying and asking god to keep my heart soft while thinking of visiting a divorce lawyer. It just all feels like to much.

You have definitely given me so much to think about.

BTW: Kudos on figuring out how to work through your own r/s struggles. You seem very patient and kind in your dealings. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me. It is very giving.

I think you will figure it out.  I don't think you will like it.  I think the key for you is to find other ways to take care of your feelings.

Notice I said "You take care of your feelings... ."  I go for walks, have long breakfasts (like right now... ) sipping coffee and lingering over "my role" in my relationship.

I'm usually able to articulate what I want, what I have... .mourn the difference and then get on with the business of taking on the day.

Specifically to sex:  Let's take Sunday evening as an example.  Decent day overall.  I was generally nonchalant and kept her a bit at arms length.  She tried to engage me in some ranting, ___ing, "wondering aloud" with the entire family hearing.  I gently deflected and "left it on the floor"... .she grumped and wondered off.  The details really don't matter... .they really don't.

She attempted a public argument, I spoke calmly and directly to her, left the "assertion" on the floor and was public about offering to problem solve whenever she was ready. 

Basically... ."Huh?... I don't get that... .but I'm ready to help whenever... ."

So... .I'm getting ready for bed... .she comes in sniffing around for sex and... .honestly... .I would have rather slept.  I said sex sounded wonderful, but if it was up to me... .I'd rather be close to her and let the feeling build.  Said how much I enjoyed her touch... this that an another.  Basically played to her love language "touch" in "non-sexual way".

Then... .to make sure I had set the hook... .I nonchalantly asked about what she liked me to do during her orgasm.  I have a bag of tricks that I rotate through.  She basically said at that point she didn't care what I did... . 

I increased my nonchalantness... .and paid her another non-sexual compliment.  Yawned a bit.

She stomped off to the bathroom to brush her teeth... .told me I should be naked when she returned... .

       

I really just wanted to go to sleep... .but there is value for my entire family by doing what I can to provide stability.

How this works out in your relationship... .you'll work out with trial and error. 

Big picture

1.  He wants you to lead... .so do it. 
2.  Don't do it the way he wants... .offer to hand him back control... .he won't take it.
3.  Use your leadership to keep him off balance... .
4.  Change the argument.  Instead of she won't sleep with me... .it's now she won't sleep with me how I want... .she wants to much... .I don't like it when she uses the whip... .or the strap on... .

Seriously... .freak him out... .  While he is consumed with What the heck is up with my wife's sexuality, make other needed changes in how the relationship works.


Thoughts?

FF

Thought?     Uh, about a million.

Haha.

First thought? FF, you are kind of amazing. The amount of thought and effort you put into managing your family is amazing.

How do things work when her attacks are towards your children? What does that look like in your house and how do you handle that? Is she very aggressive to them? Is she able to see you love them and not be mad about it? Can you deflect her anger from them? How old are your kids and do you see any negative effects yet?

Don't mean to bee too nosy but would love to know.

I will pray and reflect. I have my own counseling today too which i love. She is very encouraging.

LED

OK in typical FF style focus first on the big picture.  You have lots of direct "small picture" questions below.  They are good questions, but the answer to most of them is "turning down the overall temperature in the home, results in less of xyz... .across the board"

Plus... .there is a nuance in my r/s where the attacks are usually at me and my kids are the "audience"... .vice the targets.  Yes... sometimes a kid will do something and my wife will go overboard, but it is uncommon for her to "make something up" and then attack my kids with it.

So... .Johnny comes home late and it deserves a "3" response on a 1-10 scale.  She may give a 6 or 7 if she needs to blow off steam.

Again... .that is uncommon. 

I think it is Sunflower and/or Fian that first pointed out that my wife "has a thing" about telling others "how bad I am" or "how much of a martyr" she is for putting up with me... .you know... .

"I'm this pious Christian lady and my husband is not a christian, has a harem, keeps all the money, doesn't work, doesn't this... won't let me have another dog... won't this... won't that... .left the toilet seat up... made me cook... .made me have all these kids... made me work... "

Unfortunately... .I could go on... .



So... I let most of them go.  I focus on "general temperature".  Many times and "attack" is an indication that steam needs to be blown off... .so... .don't get in the way... .when the steam is gone... .it's over. 

Note... .this assumes attack or dysregulation has started.  ":)elfection" usually comes when I see it building.

I'm trying to think here... .a time or two I've interjected in an attack and asked... ."How are we going to edify Johnny in this issue... "

Umm... .I really can't say it works.  When the attack is towards me, I've sent kids to their room... .but attacks "at" kids are so infrequent... .I don't think I've done that  when it was aimed at them.



Again... aimed at kids is not often.  Or there is usually some fault with the kids.  I let the steam blow.  Then will follow up with "big picture" talk with kid. 



No... .but she can be loud.  So... .hollering from top floor of house to basement for a kid she doesn't even know is in the house.  Basically seems to be a "legal" way of her blowing off steam.  I've decided to ignore it for now.  Occasionally I'll ask her to give me warning so I can leave the house... as it hurts my ears. 

Usually draws eyerolling and harumphing.




Ummm... sometimes.   There are other times she sees the disconnect between her view and the kids view... .and I can see the internal struggle.  Usually there is some way to let off steam and it will get better.

For instance... .at church... .we do a Dad's night.  My 5th grade daughter (at the time) wrote a nice thing about me that was read aloud. 

The story, read by another lady in the church starts out "My Dad does our laundry and I love him very much... "

Forced my wife to "deal with" the view she spreads of a lazy hubby... .versus a daughters view of I do all the laundry.  Truth... I do most of it.  Laundry times 10 people is... .a lot.  Adding military structure and discipline to the "process" is interesting to me... .and as a practical matter, it's something I can do to help.

Anyway... .things like this are "uncomfortable" for my wife... .I don't "save" her from uncomfortableness.

For instance... I will remark about how nice it is to be appreciated for chores at home... .I don't direct it at her... .but I don't save her from it either.



If I catch it in the building stage... .I can usually head it off.

"Hey... .I want to address xyz with a kid... .I'm open to your thoughts about the best way... ."  This gets the vent towards me about the kid, usually without the kid being present.  Sort of an early pressure release.


22, 20, 17, 14, 11, 9, 6, 4

Yeah... .sadly... .the 6 year old was 2 ish when things were worst.   Very formative time emotionally.  6 year old is "immature" for her age.  We held her back a year so she is oldest in her class. 

I spend a large part of my time in therapy working on my skills to work with 6 year old and help her express her emotions better.

I'm now less of a fixer... more of a listener... .more "nudging"... .less direction.

All towards the goal of letting her know it's ok to feel any feeling... .and you can feel things and still move on with your day.

9 year old is youngest boy.  There are some effects there from wife letting him be "baby boy" for too long.  Plus... .it's hard to teach him to be leader... .when so many others are "over" him.  Massive middle child stuff.

I can see effects in other kids but biggest two are 6 year old girl and 9 year old boy.

Hope this helps.

FF

Oh... .last thought on "taking one for the team".  My Psychologist basically said... .would you rather stick around and get yourself a ridiculous amount of therapy... .or... .would you like to divorce and end up with therapy times 8 as adults... .

I've seen how divorce is done by watching my SIL.  Bad... .bad stuff.

Circling back around to the sex thing.

I would hope that you could organize your thinking along these lines... .and yes... .I realize the danger of a man suggesting how a woman should organize her thinking... .but... this is how I do it.

I don't have the sex life I want or "deserve".

The sex life I have produces good results for the rest of my family... and for me.  (less tension)

I have disappointment and "hurt feelings" about my sex life.

They are my feelings.

I am responsible for my feelings.

Therefore... .

I will find a way to care for my hurt feelings that doesn't involve my wife.

I don't want to overstate any of this.  I do usually orgasm and usually have a good time have sex with my wife.  Many times when I'm not so interested before hand... .I end up very interested and "happy" I went along with it.

There are times when my sadness about the overall state of the r/s creeps into my feelings about sex.

Big picture:  Involving my wife in solving any of that... .is unlikely to produce good results.  I've tried. 

If you go down this path of "oversexing" your hubby... .I would only do so with a firm plan and determination in place to be kind to yourself and care for your feelings.

FF

With all of our similarities I think the differences in our spouses towards our children must be pretty big. I have headed off so many things then missed warning signs and had to physically get in front of my kids so many times over their lives. I have had so many conversations about what God expects of men to try to ward off the ill effects. For the most part they have all turned out good. We have 5. The oldest was 6 when hubby and I married. He really struggled with loving God and coping with new dad. New dad taught him great manly skills though

 
I see the same thing... differences in the way they "go after" kids.

So... what would you do tonight if the "chewed a$$" on one of the kids?

What would the kid do?

Is this a relatively new way of responding... .or a well known pathway for all?

FF

I think another difference between my kids and your is that mine have felt the need to protect me and maybe yours haven't? Since you are the man they may not have felt that you were really threatened by your wife?

Thoughts?

I clearly don't have the "quote" feature figured out. And between autocorrect and my fat fingers it amazing you can figure out anything I write.

Something else I failed to mention. Much of my daughter's fears centered around worrying about me. Fearing that he would hurt me and her fearing being left without me. Through counseling she has gotten so much better but she needs to see me as strong and able to take care of myself - not as I was before. Our counselor and I have worked very hard at her understanding that she doesn't need worry for me - I will do that. She is really a sweet girl and has blossomed in therapy. Her firm belief in Christ has really helped.

I figured it out... .quotes still kick my butt from time to time.

Give me examples of him taking it out on them?

He said she said.  Perhaps backstory.  Basically... .if i was fly on wall... what would it look like.

How is it that the youngest two cause marital problems.  So... what would he have them do to fix it all?

Note:  I don't believe it... .but... to understand... .you have to roll with disordered thinking to see where it goes.

I predict it's projection... .he is projecting onto them.



Second: Boundaries point of view.

 Please change for you... not your daughter.  If you getting stronger has a byproduct that helps her... .ok.

Daughter needs to manage her own feelings without other people changing things to manage daughters feelings.

Now... .those are guidelines... not absolutes. 


FF

Give me examples of him taking it out on them?

How is it that the youngest two cause marital problems.  So... what would he have them do to fix it all?

I guess I am wrong to say he believes that they are the cause of all our marital problems. He blames me loving and giving them more of my time and/or attention.

Basic example would be: kids says something thoughtless and dad accuses them of purposely trying to make him mad so he will lose his temper to turn mom against him.

Basic example: give kid the last hamburger and he rants in a way so he is sure all the kids (ones home from college too) could hear him. "You always put them ahead of me. This is the whole problem with our marriage. I should be number one. Me me me." I know that last part sounds almost too childish to be true but I promise each me me me was said with a big thump of his chest.

Oops. Wasn't done.

He said/she said type of thing is: Hubby is watching game with 17 y/o son. The are relaxed and talking sports. Small disagreement over call but nothing big. Hubby starts teasing son and saying he doesn't know sports. (This son has super thick skin - he takes everything as a joke) Son says "your mom doesn't know anything about sports" It's a running joke that you take any situation and say "your mom" before it. Pretty silly but just something he does. Hubby escalates to "your mom" ... .something - I can't remember. Son says "ha. My mom made a mistake with you" totally joking but the switch was flipped. Hubby ranted for about 10 minutes. "You never wanted to come back home" "you wanted to stay at your grandma's" "you're the only reason your mom left" "I should have stopped having kids after your brother" Son finally says "wow dad, that's really hurtful" Hubby responds "well you hurt my feelings" Son says "I hope you don't mean that. You would be including Gracie in that too and she didn't even do anything" Hubby "She's just as bad as you. You both have been trying to get your mom to leave me." I can't remember word for word some but those were the highlights. My very even natured, thick skinned son was almost in tears.

He usually runs to me with his complaints about them with the kid in tow and yells at me about what he thinks of the kid who is still there.

Second: Boundaries point of view.

 Please change for you... not your daughter.  If you getting stronger has a byproduct that helps her... .ok.

Daughter needs to manage her own feelings without other people changing things to manage daughters feelings.

My changes were definitely for me! I was drowning trying to swim in all the crazy. I definitely wanted to understand what I was doing and how to change. I like me so much better now.

Daughter also learned to take care of herself. Like lots of self talk of being ok and safe. Learning to share fears and see what is real or imagined. What I AM saying is that she needed to see me be strong with her dad in order for her to feel safe and to feel that I was taking care of ME. I know she still worries for me sometimes but now it is more of a caring for my feelings kind of thing. Like Monday when she could hear her dad ranting at me through the phone as I was dropping her off she said "I love you mom. Please don't let dad be too mean to you." I assured her that I would be fine and that I can take care of myself.

Uggg... .double and triple uggg.

So... .yeah... .very different dynamic than in my house. 

OK... .let's be pragmatic.

So... .first rule of pragmatism.  Look at things as they are... .not as you want them to be... .

Here is my take, correct as needed.  Emotionally... .you are raising a bunch of kids, your hubby is the "youngest"... .correct?

I understand he "appears" to be a grown man... .and from time to time he may even act like and adult.  (let me ask question, how often does he have "adult" emotional responses versus childlike?  50/50?)

How often does the "I wish you didn't exist thing happen... .in any context?"

When they all come running to "Mom"... what do you do?  How does husband approach you... .is he "telling" on the kids?

I'm going to ponder this for a bit.  My gut reaction is to overemphasize the "Mom" thing and treat him like a teen as well.  Perhaps just in the short term... .to shake things up.

Big picture:  Goes along with the sex thing... .it appears that everyone in house "reacts" to Dad.  Perhaps Dad was reacting to you guys right after moving back in, but he slowly pushed and everyone else went along with it... to get back to what was "normal" or comfortable (in an odd way).

I'm not saying any of this was deliberate... .I am saying that 26 years of habits are hard to break.   Some of those changes happen slowly.  Some happen quickly. 

I'm a big fan of the "flanking maneuver" where you create a distraction over here... .and in an "oh by the way fashion" make the change you intended over there.  After a few weeks... .it becomes "normal".  Then be vigilant for a few weeks after that for attempts to undo the change... .

In the midst of the mayhem... .you pick a couple issues that you are willing to "go to the mat over"... .stand firm, be succinct and TAKE ACTION.

Now... .I hope... .I really hope we can turn down the temp on this "I wish you did not exist stuff... ." but this could be a place to take a stand.

Again... .I'm thinking outloud here... .consider all of this for a while before implementing.

Him:  Blah blah blah... .we should never have had you... .blah blah blah

You:  Walk in room with keys... .tell Johnny to get in car.  "Stop the emotional abuse... .we are going to take a break to cool down."  Leave... call 911 if blocked.  Don't "hurl" words over your shoulder... .just leave. 

Come back in couple hours and be friendly.

I would only pick this kind of "tactic" for 1 or 2 things that are a big deal. 

So... please think about the "bad" stuff your hubby does to the kids... and rank it.  Pick off a couple things at the bottom with "flanking" and be ready to address stuff at the top with firm boundaries with action and very few words.

Mindset:  For the big deal stuff... you aren't going to "talk him into or out of things... " action is likely to be the key.


There are things you need to address with your kids... privately. 

No more kidding with Dad.  Push pause on that for several months.  Perhaps I should ask a question, how often does kidding go ok... .and how often bad?

It would seem relatively easy to end that... .without your hubby knowing.  And you kid could be honest if ever confronted.

Why don't you kid with me any more?  "Because you hurt my feelings... and never apologized"  No further discussion.

Should your hubby "own it"... perhaps consider kidding again.

So... new dynamic.

"blah blah blah... stupid call... you don't know sports... blah blah blah" 

"Perhaps... .I'm getting a Coke... want me to bring you one.?"  Get up... .grab a drink... some chips... come back... no further discussion.

Last thought:  You need to chat with counselor... .and think about how you talk to kids about no more emotional abuse from Dad.  The kids can end it by walking away and not listening.  That's going to be hugely triggering... ."disobedient"... etc etc.  They likely should only try it with you around... and probably you should send them away a couple times first.

I say bring counselor into this... .because it is better for her to make this judgment and have you carry it out... .instead of it being "your idea". 

Honey... I'm just doing what the counselor says. 

If your hubby wants to go to another counselor and complain that kids walk away from him when he says they shouldn't exist... .he can try that all day long.

Said another way... ."it's nonsense... .don't put up with it"

OK... .I've been going for a bit here.  I'll check back later for some answers.

FF

If you do decide to leave him, it appears that violence towards you is a real risk.  I recommend planning the exit carefully.  Don't let Lala's tale happen to you.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=313497.0

Thank you Fian.

I agree. I have always known that the fine line that has kept him in check form hurting me is his fear of me leaving. If I was to leave I would definitely have to be super careful.

LED

If he quits counseling... .you will?

The every couple week outburst is a lot.

How long has that been going on?  Does it get better and worse in a cycle?

For instance... .I am at 22 years marriage.

At about 15 years... things got bad.  Natural disaster triggered things in my wife and I.

Built up over a couple years.  Then 3-4 bad years.  Really bad.  Last couple have gotten better.  Mostly boundaries.

My wife has tried... .I don't claim all credit.

I get the feeling yours is longer.

FF

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