BPDFamily.com

Hello. I'm new to the forum and to the concept of BPD. I recently started the "Eggshells" book and it seems to describe my relationship with my wife in a scarily accurate way.

 I don't presume to diagnose BPD in her, nor do I pretend to be an innocent little lamb. But after three years of marriage and one baby, trying my best to live ethically and to provide for her needs, and to be calm and kind in the face of adversity, and going through three marriage counselors... .the rages and threats and insults and belittlings and devaluing have gotten to be too much. The current round of counseling is our last stand, and I hope that it will help us forge a path forward, and to create a space for peace and security in our home so that we can rebuild our relationship. But I'm also in touch with a lawyer, and preparing for the possibility of a painful and debilitating separation and divorce.

THE SUNNY BEGINNING: I'm a graphic designer and musician, runner and outdoorsman. She's an artist and designer and outdoorsperson as well. We started out enjoying those things together, and had a lot of fun and travels and great sex, and by all means seemed a great match. I was still wary of commitment due to a previous marriage (10 years with another person who, in retrospect, exhibited BPD behaviors. Sigh). My reluctance to commit was upsetting to her, but we enjoyed our time together to the point where I felt secure in taking the next steps... .moving in together, buying a house, getting married... .

THE TURNING POINT: It was an exciting day when I proposed to her and gave her a ring. We were in the jungle on an overseas trip, and having a fantastic adventure and I asked her whether she'd like to go on more adventures. A few days after the engagement, she expressed dissatisfaction with the ring itself and its value. This triggered some fights that turned ugly quickly — more vicious in tone than I thought was worthwhile. I eventually caved and bought her a more expensive ring, but felt bitterness about how she had characterized me.

The fight over this ring signalled a pattern of how our conflicts and disagreements would progress in coming years regarding such topics as:

• The wedding
• Finances
• Where to go to dinner
• Getting a dog
• An extensive house renovation
• How to treat the dog
• Whether to have a child
• Time spent with my band/friends/outdoors interests
• Paint color selections
• My smell
• Who knows what else... . 

HITTING BOTTOM (?): A series of fights in the year since the baby was born that have escalated into her hitting me, yelling at me within earshot of others, calling me provocative names, telling me the marriage was over and that I would never see our daughter again. These things are usually said during a fury episode, and she then can't understand why I am wary of her or nervous and standoffish after the dust has settled. She says that I do not accept any responsibility for my adding to these conflicts, and justifies her own angry behavior as the proper response to my being an ass.

WHERE WE'RE AT: A new therapist. We're trying to defuse the situation and at our therapist's urging, have called off an anniversary weekend trip we were planning, because we can barely do a daytrip with the baby without it blowing up. I'm currently feeling 75% in favor of divorcing. Yesterday, it was 50%. Last night it was 85%. I hope to not have to, but it's unacceptable to me to continue being the object of someone's insults and put-downs and rage.

Looking forward to reading about others' struggles. it doesn't feel good to be here, but I'm glad to know I'm not alone in this.

*welcome*

I'm glad you found us and I'm sorry you are in such dire straits.  I've been there too. 

We can help make this better.

Can you tell us more about the therapist?  How long going and how often do you go?

Can you pick a recent "fight" and give us some background on the issue.  Then give us a bit of he said she said (he did she did) so we can understand how the dynamic plays out between you two.

Here is a hint... .changing one part of the dynamic changes the entire thing.  You will learn to find hope in that "fact"... .even if the choice is to eventually divorce.

FF

I am so sorry you're going through this. I'd like to say that it is possible to change the dynamic of a relationship in the throes of chaos, such as you find yourself. However, it's not intuitive and it takes learning new skill sets for communicating with someone in the midst of dysfunction.

One thing I learned is never to argue with a dysregulated person. It's a no-win situation. Your wife might be able to think clearly some time afterwards, but when she's upset, it's counterproductive to try and share your opinion and feelings--it just makes things worse.

Being a very logical person, I kept trying to communicate, figuring that if I just said the right words, I'd get through. Nope. Didn't work. My husband interpreted it as an attack, rather than a desperate desire to try and fix things between us.

A term you'll see on this site is JADE. It stands for justify, argue, defend, explain. Using these strategies with an emotionally healthy person often works well and thus we think we've got some tools to cope with our loved one's upset feelings. However, when someone has BPD, using these strategies is like pouring gasoline on fire.

It's taken me a long time to get this. I kept thinking I could just explain things and he'd get the lightbulb moment and all would be good.

Please tell us more of your story and take a look at the links on the right side of this page.

   
Cat

Welcome and sorry you're here  - I say that tongue in cheek since I am glad you're here, but, sorry that you were driven here by a toxic relationship.  But, the company is appreciated.

I'll explain a little of my story, and try to draw out some lessons I am being taught.  My origin and initial relationship started much different than yours, so there will be big differences.  However disordered personalities have a lot in common, so there should be some use in sharing.  

My sunny beginning was more or less: I had reached a marriageable age and station in life. I had reached a stable enough lifestyle and the next thing I looked for in life was marriage and family.  I wasn't desperate or lonely, just it seemed I was on the natural progression in life.  I had recently ended a really great relationship based on distance and religion.  Nothing against her religion, actually, her religion was important to me enough to not want her to make changes or compromises because we had very different backgrounds.  At the time, I was devoted to my religion too, which advocated strongly for traditional values and family, and a same-faith family seemed like the logical goal.  I'm not making excuses to dismiss it, but, this thinking sort of lead me down a path that I cornered myself into a self-imposed arranged marriage.  There was no sex before marriage so I didn't know what I was getting into.  There wasn't a physical spark or connection, but, again, she had the right markers for what I was supposed to want in a wife - or so I thought.  There were problems in her family of origin and extended family.  I was simply not savvy enough to know that the red background - was actually red flags I failed to note and didn't know to look for.  Maybe I was a rescuer.  Anyway, in brief, I got married and from day two, regretted it.  

This had the effect of dropping me into a depression - that left me still quite functional on the surface, and I never fell to many vices or overt depression.  However, I was deeply sad that I had married who I had.  My faith took a beating too, since I did what was "right" and got abused for it.   Time goes on, as it does, and I acted like the husband was supposed to.  I think.  I didn't see the manipulation, projection, anger, blame, guilt, passive aggression, fear, insecurity, black-and-white thinking, the jumping to conclusions, and profound emptiness inside my wife.  I was willfully blind - or grossly uneducated about emotional intelligence.  I took the blame, and projection, and fault, I went through crazy making behavior - all taking a toll on me from the inside.  

We had our first kid after a few years, because that's what you do when you're married.  Once we had a kid my life changed.  My firstborn was heaven's light in my life.  Meanwhile, marriage got worse.  Of course, conflict was there - but mostly cold, quiet unhappiness was the rule.  I was probably equally to blame for the fights and anger, but, I was a lost soul at the time.  Nevertheless, once you have one kid, and since kids became my element worth living for, we had another.  And my wife was more depressed and unhappy after this than before.  And so on.

On and on we went.  I've now been married 20 years and have five kids.  I love my kids dearly. I weep inside seeing the middle two especially with BPD behaviors, some word for word mimicking mom, other times, just looking at the confusion and blame and projection in them breaks my heart.  What have I created, what am I now?

In 2015 my marriage was a sexless, loveless, confusing swirl of abuse and blame.  I started reading a religious book about intimacy in marriage, and to my relief it started to dawn on me that I was, perhaps, normal.  I also stumbled across a phrase I had never heard of before in this book.  The term Borderline Personality was given as a reason that some dysfunctional marriages are not redeemable.  Maybe because I was looking for a reason, a justification, I looked a little more into the description of BPD.  Like a light piercing the darkness of the shroud I had been living under for my whole marriage, something finally made sense.  I could read, line by line, and fit my wife's behavior into virtually every description.

I had been saved.  Pulled from the edge of the cliff I had dangled from - for I had spent years grinding away my life, unable and afraid to decide what was worse between death, marriage, and divorce - and not seeing a difference.  It was BPD, or mental illness.  It was real.  

This revelation led to a personal journey that has been both hard, and liberating.  I'm still married, but more than ever, it feels to me like it is just a contract.  Five kids, religion, and a mortgage are what we have in common.  

I'm still ruled by the fear of divorce, and, much to my frustration, my strongly not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings is keeping me married.  But, I am able to do more self-care and practice self-compassion.  Realizing that my wife's problems are her problems has let me free up energy and responsibility that I can use now on the kids.  Knowing that in a divorce I would lose at least partial time with the kids has made me cherish the time even more.  

Realizing that I am not solely to blame for the past abyss of a marriage is a boon to my sense of well-being.  I have gotten so much more aware of myself, and others, and compassionate due to my experiences.  I've had a crash course, or virtual PhD, in psychopathology and now I can see the ropes that bind and motivate my wife.  I am sad for her, but I am not responsible for her condition.  Nor am I the cure, or cause.  I am sad to see the damage, maybe permanent, in myself and the kids because of my home life.  I am sad to see that I gave over 20 years of freedom and possible happiness to a marriage that will end eventually - or will end me eventually.  

One lesson learned is that it does take two people to fight.  I've been a secret Zen fan for a long time, and I know that it's impossible to fight with me if I choose to not engage.  I have removed hostility from my home by letting go.  

I have learned that boundaries are fundamentally vital to a healthy relationship - and burning poison to a person with BPD - so don't expect your boundaries to be respected at first. Study until you understand boundaries.  Cat just beautifully explained JADE and what to avoid.  Thanks Cat.

Couple's therapy helps couples who need a little help with something like finances, intimacy, boundaries, listening, empathy. Couples counseling does not diagnose or treat a mentally ill partner.  :)on't hitch your wagon to thinking couples therapy will solve the big problems, but, try it if it makes things better.

I also am working on the idea that conflict is natural and a product of two or more people living and growing together - however, blame, projection, abuse, and all the other BPD toxins comprise destructive conflict.  

I got a little carried away with my response, sorry.  I hope it means something good to someone.  I feel sad that present-self couldn't time travel back and tell my past-self not to get married, and then tell past-self to get an annulment, because there are worse things than looking like a failure in a new marriage.  And then tell past-self to divorce before kids, and then tell past-self to cut my losses, and repeat the message each year until obeyed.  However, maybe my future-self will see that the wisdom I have gotten, and compassion I am learning, and the devotion I feel towards my kids would only have come about through this horrible, long, and painful path that I am presently traveling.  

What does your future self tell you?
I hope that you find out, and have peace with the message.
Good luck.

Hey Caco, Welcome!  I view the above description of your W's behavior as Abuse, with a smattering of Manipulation in the form of F-O-G (fear, obligation & guilt).  Having been formerly married to a pwBPD for 16 years, I should know, yet it took me a long time to see it.


I agree; it is unacceptable.  I like your attitude, because it took me years to figure out that I didn't deserve to be treated in such a fashion.  I suspect that on some level, I didn't love and accept myself enough, because I tolerated the intolerable.  Someone healthier would have run for the hills, I'm sure, but I stayed and took the abuse out of a misguided sense of loyalty and a belief in my wedding vows.

I also thought that I could crack the BPD code, yet BPD proved too much for me.  Towards the end, I had nothing left in the tank and bottomed out.  I say this to caution you that it's important to treat yourself with care and compassion.  Do what is necessary to preserve your health and well-being.  Take time for yourself.

I'm not suggesting that you follow my path; rather, I'm here to help you find the path that is right for you.  Many of us, including Samwize, Cat and FF, have been down this road before you.

LuckyJim

Hey all -- thanks for the support and the kind welcomes.

To formflier -- This is our third therapist. My wife thought our first one was biased towards me and she found the second one, who we met with for almost two years. That therapist told us she no longer could keep taking our money because we weren't doing the work necessary to break the patterns of our arguing. This new therapist specializes in couples, and he has a 3-4 month program that involves individual and couples sessions. He communicates really well and draws up charts on a whiteboard.

One interesting thing that has come up in this last round was when he drew up parallel charts in which he asked us each to graph our amount of emotional connection along the duration of the relationship. My emotional connection started high but was diminished and is almost at zero. Here's what surprised me: My wife charted HER emotional connection as low at the beginning, and at almost zero now. She says much of her anger and frustration comes from wanting a greater amount of emotional connection, but being underwhelmed by what she felt she was getting in return from me. For my part, I felt that I was giving my all at the start, but lost emotional connection every time there was a rage episode.

I haven't discussed the possibility of BPD with this new counselor yet, since I just discovered the concept, although I have described to him the severity of her rage behaviors and quick triggering. He's advised me to have a plan in place to leave the house for a few days if necessary so as to not engage in the same old patterns. During our couples' sessions it seems he's taking a very slow, strategic track in order to not overwhelm her. I feel a little impatient about it, but I hope and trust he knows what he's doing and want to give it a chance.

To Lucky Jim -- Thanks! I've been working to self-care, to keep exercising when possible, and to reconnect with friends who feed my soul and know the real me and keep me accountable. That's been important — If I were to accept my wife's portrayal of me, I'd start believing that I'm a slovenly, thoughtless, selfish, narcissist who blames others. I know that I'm someone who tries my best to navigate everyday life, and sometimes I slip up, but I know that I'm accountable for my own actions and I take responsibility.

Hoping that your journey is going well.

To Samwize -- Thank you for sharing your story. This is something that was lurking in my thoughts at our previous marriage counseling attempts:


I've found myself thinking several times — maybe this works for more normal, loving couples. But damm, I'm dealing with something completely off the charts.


^^^^ Yes, this!

To Cat Familiar - Thank you, looking up JADE as soon as I finish this. I enjoy gaining new skill sets, and so much rides on this one.

---

So FF asked for a rundown of a recent argument/meltdown. I'll recreate it here to the best of my abilities:

Nighttime -- we're finishing dinner, having a neutral conversation. My wife is standing by the table. The baby has climbing on a dining room chair and standing, and we've been putting her back on the floor. Until --

WHAM!  Baby slips, hits her mouth on edge of the dining room table. There's a little bit of blood and a lot of crying

We both start trying to comfort her. Wife is on floor with baby. We check her out to inspect the injury -- it's just a slight cut to the lower lip. No teeth. It's upsetting but we're both pretty in control at this point.

ME: I'll go get some sugar

HER: Sugar? What the hell for?

ME: It's something my grandmother used to do when we fell and cut our mouth. It stanches the --

HER: NO. That's the dumbest ___ing thing I've heard.

ME: It couldn't hurt

HER: It will rot her teeth out. I've never heard of doing that. Where do you come up with this ___?

ME: My grandmother... .

HER: Your grandmother was a superstitious idiot. I'm not doing that to my baby.

ME: ... .

HER: And it doesn't work.

ME: How do you know that it doesn't work? You said you've never heard of it before.

HER: I know it doesn't. Science knows it doesn't

ME: The sugar's not going to be on her mouth long enough to rot her teeth

HER: NO! NO! You're not doing that to MY baby!

(At this point, the bleeding is over, but I'm upset by her denigrating my grandmother (who she never knew) and by her blanket discounting of anything I had to say. I'm no longer intent on putting sugar on the wound, but I want to show her that I wasn't just pulling the cure out of thin air)

ME: Here, I googled it. Some sites say there is something to it

HER: You can find any sort of stupid ___ on the internet. Why are you continuing to argue with me?

(I give up on this topic. By this time she is agitated, loud, and clinging to the baby as though I were a major threat to both. Although I've made it a point to be calm and measured. I decide to disengage, and take the dog for a long walk)

THE FOLLOWING MORNING:
(We're in the car on our way to a nearby town to ride bikes with the baby for a "Fun Family Outing"

HER: I'm sorry about getting upset about the sugar thing last night. What I was really upset about was that you were just sitting there, watching the baby climb, knowing that she could get hurt, and you did nothing to prevent it.

ME: We were both right there. It happened very quickly.

HER: I was in the kitchen and rushed over. You were there not doing anything about her climbing.

ME: I don't want to argue. But as I recall it, you were right next to me, we were in the middle of a conversation, we both saw her climbing, and then she slipped. If feels as though I'm being blamed for her falling.

HER: Well, YOU were the one who was right there.

ME: We were both there.

HER: I was in the kitchen.

(Repeat a few times, getting louder)

HER: I'm not trying to blame you — you're not wanting to accept responsibility for anything. It's what you always do. You are just afraid to man up and admit that you let it happen.

ME: I don't know where you want this conversation to go, but it sounds as though you're trying to pin blame on me solely for it. I think we are both responsible -

HER: You are the one who was right there

ME: We were both there

HER: You're rewriting what happened to suit yourself.

ME: I'm sorry — You may be right. But I can't change my memory. In my recollection, you were right next to me. We can have different memories of it, but I know what I saw. We both let it happen, and it doesn't do us much good to argue about it.

HER: No, YOU let it happen. And now you're making up a story to blame me for it. So typical for you.

ME: Hold on, time out

HER: I've ___ing had it. I'm so over this. You're not a partner in this marriage and you don't do ___ to help out with the house or the baby.

ME: This is supposed to be a fun outing day. i don't want to be fighting.

HER: Then ___ing quit arguing with me.

Me: But you're saying things about me that I don't agree with.

HER: Just ___ing shut up.

ME: It's not acceptable to me to be told to shut up.

HER: You know how to make this better? Just shut up.

(Overwhelmed with anger, and sadness for the family outing that seems ruined, I tell her I need to step away, I'll see her later after we've calmed down. I step out of the car at the next intersection. She claws at my arm and yells at me to not go.

I meet up with her and the baby an hour later. It's as if nothing had happened, but I still feel raw.

-- Caco

I was deliberate about reading just a few lines and then skimming/skipping the rest.  I've seen this a lot and I want to assure you that YOU... .and ONLY YOU have the power to break this cycle.

I don't exactly know what your r/s will look like after you break this cycle, but I'm 99% sure it will be much... much better.

A few big picture observations.

Both of you are trying to convince the other to "think differently" or come to different conclusions.

A smartass (but relevant) question for YOU!   You say that you don't want to argue... .so... .why are you arguing?  Serious question... .please answer it  

Last question for you to "reflect on".  Are you willing to change your part in the relationship, even if your wife doesn't want you to... .or badgers and bullies you to "change back"?

I'll wait for you answers... then give some direct advice on how YOU... .and YOU ALONE can change this.

FF

@ Caco - it sounds like you're reasonable, but dealing with and unreasonable person.  It's tough learning to sort out interactions with more normal people, and then learning a new rule set to be used with disordered persons.  Tough, but worth it.  It sounded to me like you've got the groundwork for good responses and actions, especially being aware of escalation, and wanting to stay calm and giving yourself a "time-out."  All admirable skills.

Be aware that we argue, and usually get into more trouble, when we try [or need] to be right.  Letting go of that need can detach you from any argument also.

This reminds me of a saying my old Gunnery Sgt. used to use ":)on't wrestle with the pigs.  They like it, and you'll get muddy."

Not an answer for everyone, but, my DGAF meter is dialed down to such low tolerances now that my wife doesn't get a chance to argue with me.  At first hint of a disagreement I respond with accepting that is how she feels / what she says.  Then I thank her for expressing herself.  Anything after that I mentally go into replaying: "that sounds important, you should e-mail it so I remember."  In my current state of affairs, if my wife said the things as you describe yours did, bleeps included, the next morning I'd call the attorney to set and appointment to file divorce.  You cannot cure it, can't change it, and didn't cause it.   I think my wife has ESP because she knows I've got no more room for arguing and she is playing nice.  

I'm not saying do as I do, or do as I say, but, I know you can stop the arguing.  Let's see what Formflier suggests.

And oh, I don't know if it helps, but try visualizing your wife in diapers holding a bottle, crying and screaming, when she starts in on you.  There's not a lot different in a toddler's mind from a potential BPD mind.

Hi, CC, and welcome! Your story is familiar to a lot of us, me included. (I'll spare you my own details for now.) I appreciate you posting that play-by-play of a recent argument, as it's very illuminating. One thing I notice is that you are doing a lot of JADE and no real validation. These are techniques that we teach here that might -- and I emphasize might -- help regulate the conflict in your marriage. Have you looked at them?

JADE (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0)

Validation (https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating)

FF says Samwize is wise!   |iiii

FF

CC,

That blow-by-blow argument brought back so many memories for me. Thank you /sarc.!

The mention of her "protecting" your child is a specific I am familiar with.  If you don't mind - can you speak to your wife's childhood, particularly her relationship with her parents?

Childress writes extensively about the "reenactment of childhood attachment trauma", and the creation of a false protective narrative: https://drcraigchildressblog.com/2014/12/13/trauma-reenactment-in-parental-alienation/

I'm curious if you see any parallels in his writing?

Thanks All.

Stolen --
Thanks for that link. I've definitely had the sense that she's been casting me in a role for a narrative that plays in her mind, so that she can see herself in a heroic role ... .the smart wife, the good mother, doing heroic battle against the stupid husband and neglectful father.

You asked about her childhood, and parent relationship. She has a close-knit family, but with a lot of dysfunction, much of it circling around her mother, who despite being a sweet and well-meaning person, seems to be an enabler of destructive behaviors and a stoker of righteous drama. She portrays herself as a "ferocious mama" who won't let anyone mess with her "babies" -- even though they're all in their 30s. Two of my wife's 4 siblings have been in rehab for drug addictions (coke, heroin, alcohol). All of them are prone to rage incidents.

From what I've gathered, her father was given to explosive rages when the kids were little. He currently seems like a fairly gentle and patient guy, sometimes grumbly about the emotional and financial dysfunction of his own kids and wife, but genuinely loving and kind with his grandchildren.

My wife has some long-festering conflicts with her mother, and stories about failing to protect her as a child and a teenager. Apparently for her 16th birthday, her mother arranged a keg party for her and her friends at their house, and then went to a neighbors' house to let the kids have their fun. She got almost blackout drunk and lost her virginity to an adult stranger who showed up for the kegger. (I'm putting aside my own dismay at the amount of bad judgement shown here.) My wife hasn't said that it was a major trauma or life event, but I can't imagine it wouldn't have been.

---

To Formflier:

My therapist asked me that yesterday. And it's a fair question that points to the root of our pattern of fighting. Well, my perspective at the time, she was saying something accusatory, and giving a set of facts that was not as I saw it. I wanted to set the record straight and get her to acknowledge why I would have seen the situation differently. So at a baseline level: I spoke up because I had a need to be heard and understood. I was feeling threatened and blamed for something bad that happened, and I know I had my own degree of shame around the baby falling. Yet I know that my wife was right there beside me as it happened. We both allowed it to happen. I was upset that she had re-written the facts of the narrative to put the blame directly on me. I was upset about what I sensed as the unfairness of the accusation, specifically her own excusing herself from responsibility in the fall, and then projecting that accusation back at me.

(sorry, i hope this doesn't feel like a tedious re-hash). So in short — I argued because I wanted to be treated fairly.

(That was an interesting exercise... .of course I felt some guilt/shame in the baby falling. But I hadn't explored the role of shame in the interaction)

I'm definitely eager to try something different in terms of techniques/methods for disagreements.

---

Flourdust:
Eager to learn some validation techniques. My efforts so far feel kind of awkward, but I hope they'll improve. This level of thinking is all very new to me ... .this is only Day 5 of being aware of BPD, but it's re-framing so much of my thinking, and has felt like a huge relief. I know hard work and hard decisions are ahead.

---

Samwize:


I appreciate your honesty in talking about your situation and how you're working with it. The diapers image had me laughing a couple of times yesterday. Although now it feels as though I'm dealing with two toddlers instead of one.

Cheers all!

Focus on this first.  Important to understand why invalidation is BAAAAAAAAD.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating


Once I understood invalidation and removed invalidation (as best I could) from my relationship, great gains were made... .as in... things became far more functional and less dysfunctional.
 
What does that look like?  Grab some popcorn and get ready for FF storytime.

Back in the day... .paranoia was bad in my relationship.

Such as:  My wife thought I would fly back early from a military deployment, bang some of my "hos" and then have them drop me off at the airport on the day I "tricked" her into believing I actually arrived.  I got a member of my harem pregnant and decided to introduce my wife to my baby at a McDonalds one day.  (it was actually a militant breastfeeding mom feeding her baby... .with boobs hanging all out... .no cover)

Well... .effe me... .the baby's name turned out to be my wife's name... .which is a bit unique.  I knew the moment I heard this... that somehow... .a load of crazy was about to land... .

Turns out... .by naming the baby the same name as my wife... .I was able to sneak the baby onto the military insurance

Sigh... .also figured out that my bad back didn't come from military service... .but from over exertion... .you know... .with my harem.       Note... .for those that want a harem... .be a cool naval aviator with a mustache... .the mustache is key.  I ended up having an application process to add women.  You know... .military and all... .there has to be a process to add women.

Well... .let's just say I'm a meticulous guy with records, especially given the travel claims I had to make to be reimbursed from government travel.

So... .I was able to prove to my wife my exact whereabouts using receipts, phone records etc etc.  Essentially... .once again... I proved that I only had my wife in my harem... .no others... .poor FF.

While it shut her up at the moment, it was like pouring gas on her paranoia.  You would think that proving a husband loyal is a good thing, but if someone "feels" the hubby is disloyal AND if they don't feel their feelings "heard and understood"... .I would hope you can have empahty for a person that would "come back next time" with a "bigger" paranoid delusion.

Why would it get bigger?  Because I poured "gas" on it... .the "gas" being invalidation.

It has now been years since an accusation... .  Things are far from perfect, but things are workable.

Hey... just got the mail.  I've only got one open spot at the moment.  I had one chick run off last week... .said I was too much man for her. (an unfortunate consequence of such a highly practiced sex machine)  So... .today's dilemma... .do I add a bleached blond... .or a redhead.

 |iiii

FF

Redhead.  Might as well stir the pot
FF post brings to mind another feature that is ever-present with my wife.  It helps me to understand my wife, and not engage in JADE better when I remember that my wife's facts are her feelings.  Thus, one event from the past can be colored and reinterpreted in whatever way my wife is feeling about it.  A totally neutral statement can be reconstructed as a hurtful stab in heart and one of the worst things I ever did in my life - depending on how my wife wants to construct it at the time.  Whereas my wife has actually said unambiguously hurtful things, my record is entirely up to her feelings at the moment. 

Once I learned that aspect of her perception, it took a lot of weight off of my shoulders when I learned to not bother setting the record straight.  I'm all about efficiency, so I try not to waste effort or build sandcastles of truth too close to the water edge.  It's all washed away next tide of emotions.

Thanks FF and Samwise -- glad to see y'all are maintaining a sense of humor in the face of the absurdity of it all.  

I'll check out the skills for not invalidating her, or wasting energy on setting the record straight. The tough part is that I feel that I'm being forced to swallow the frustration that is building up in me, and not being true or fair to myself when I let her have the last word about my worthiness. (which she usually does anyway, by sheer virtue of loudness and perseverance).

I'm only starting to scratch the surface, and there are so many other topics that I'm going to have to consider going forward if I stay in the marriage:

• Reducing the financial arguments by going back to some sort of separate finances (I felt pressured into combining most of our finances even though I think she lacks discipline to save money)
• Learning strategies for being able to plan family outings/vacations/projects without them turning into bitter events where everyone feels unhappier afterwards
• Assessing whether she really has permanently devalued everything I've brought to the relationship/marriage/house

Did any of y'all see the eclipse? We got to see the totalilty with a group of friends. I really enjoyed the natural phenomenon, and catching up with our friends. But the process of getting there took a toll on me:

• Wife was critical of all of my efforts to pack food and supplies for the picnic and in case of getting stuck in traffic.
• Made fun of my taking steps to lock up our bikes. (Nobody's going to steal them). Getting actually angry with me for being concerned about theft.
• Mocking me when the bikes were still behind our vehicle at the hotel. "See. Nobody tried to steal them"
• Harsh criticism of my driving
• Loud irritating sighing and questioning my directions; pulling up her own set of directions on the phone
• And at the end of the day: "Well, it was my idea that we should go to see the totality of the eclipse, or not bother watching it at all. Aren't you glad you listened to me?"

STOLEN: -- That article you posted touches on something that's been bothering me since the baby was born: The performative quality of some of her behaviors and speech around the baby. My wife now has this new identity as a mother. And don't get me wrong -- she's an awesome and caring mother, and it's understandable to get frustrated with the baby or spouse when you're sleep deprived or have an infant clawing for your breast. But as much as she clamors that she wants me to be a full partner in the rearing of our daughter, she undermines my own parenting work and attempted contributions:

• Early on, when I'd be changing diapers or dressing the baby and the baby is crying for whatever reason: "What the H-LL are you DOING to her?"
• Cricitism of me in front of others when I'm carrying the baby: "Give her to me. You're carrying her like a sack of potatoes."
• And more things that I'm too tired to remember at the moment

What struck me from the article was the word "performative" — the sense of putting on a big show to paint me as a neglectful, incompetent parent in order to be able to swoop in and boost herself as the caring, capable one. When we're at home, her audience is myself and our daughter, which feels just as bad as when she does it in front of family, friends and strangers. I'm trying to teach myself not to take it personally, but I know that this just CAN'T BE GOOD, you know?

Look over at the lessons and read about "boundaries" as well.  Honestly, boundaries are most important to me.  Eventually you will "get" how to avoid invalidation.  Healthy boundaries will be something you think about... .for the rest of your life... .in all relationships.

Said another way, boundaries are my number one go to skill for relationship stability 

In the short run, you will get way more "bang for your buck" by avoiding invalidation.  In the long run, your life will be much more calm when you keep the crazy on the outside of your castle walls.  Perhaps you can even have some fun with it if you choose to taunt crazy a second time... .

No... .no... .not that... .you always make me go there... .you never let just post here without bringing that up... again and again... .I'm not sure why I ever fool with you guys... .now go away... .

Naaahh... .even when I try... it just doesn't work for me... .    Everyone get your popcorn and check out what keeping the crazy out looks like...   Get your coconuts too!

https://youtu.be/DGXx56WqqJw



Back to real life... .read boundaries in the lessons... then tell me where YOUR ears should be when she wants to say... .whatever she says about you.

FF

CC,

So much of what you write is familiar to me.  Regardless of what I now understand as red flags, we had over a decade of a successfully collaborative relationship. Having kids turned it from collaborative to confrontational/competitive.  I was bewildered by this - what had changed besides being blessed with healthy children?

But it was a trigger, and one that would not be survivable.  There was no openness or honesty to explain the change, just a constant refrain of miserable anger.  The kids were clearly a link back to her own abusive childhood, but since that was a closed book, it would just fester in the dark.  Her mother's response to us having children ("I am not ready to be a Grandmother!" clearly wounded xW, but her pain seemed to be directed at me. 

I wrote this in my journal almost a decade ago, trying to make sense of the war I seemed to have been invited to: "She associates my advice as her mother's demands. Takes my criticism as her mother's attacks. Takes my discipline of my children as her mother's brutalization that they need protection from. My advice is her mother's scolding, hence her defensiveness, resentment, and anger/hate".

This was before I had ever heard of BPD, of splitting (which led me to BPD), before understanding any of this. 

I now understand that reality can be processed in different ways via a person's schemas. (I know I read more Childress on this topic, but a good overview here: https://www.healthyplace.com/blogs/borderline/2015/04/schema-modes-help-in-understanding-borderline-personality-disorder/)

The "protective parent" narrative within reenactment of her own childhood trauma made so much sense to me.  And protection is good, right?  But in this case there needs to be a bogeyman to protect from.  And since the real bogeyman is a generation removed, there is a need for a stand-in... .

I don't know how much "Performative" drove this. I really believe it was something more personal, deeper perhaps.  What I do know is it was a relentless force, one that took tremendous effort from xW, but one which seemed to provide her little joy.  Did I mentioned feeling bewildered?

My experience is why I asked about your wife's childhood.  I know what I experienced was generational - actually going back the two generations I had exposure to.  Not sure if any of this helps you, but I lay it out there in the hope that it may.

Life stressors seem to be one of the common factors in causing people with BPD to destabilize. With my wife, it was about seven years into our marriage that a series of stressful life events - job losses, interstate moves, health problems - seemed to shift the balance in her ability to regulate her emotions. What had been a cycle of occasional episodes of dysregulation - every 3-4 months or so - sped up to a daily and even hourly frequency.

For your wife, it may have been the stress of becoming a parent.

Thank you Flourdust.  I re-examine my past and have wondered if I was truly that blind to red flags, or if my wife changed.  And I can line up life stressors (second child, move, money trouble) with the most dangerous psychotic episodes of my wife's behavior. 

I used to get this a lot.  It was maddening.  :)rove me up walls.  Even four years out,  the kids now 5 and 7, I still get it in some form,  even though we get along mostly in a co-parenting r/s. Just this week after she got the kids back after I took them out of town for three days.  

From what I've experienced,  the accusations are based upon fear,  and I think that they are just as hard on themselves internally as they are projecting their fears upon the other parent.  Learning the validation tools (linked here,  but all together in Lesson 3 on the Improving Board) may help.  Getting a handle on this can also help you shield your child from mom's anxiety.  Without a stable foil, young children can learn to validate the invalid (parent's anxiety) because they don't know any better.  

I'm new here, but have recently realized my husband has Borderline personality disorder after reading the book, Walking On Eggshells. I have been married for 17 years and have endured so much verbal abuse and abnormal behavior that I just don't have anything else to give. I have 2 boys that keep me from divorcing my husband. I am not an advocate for divorce. I'm very spiritual and believe that hard work and prayer can change a relationship. But, with someone with Borderline personality... .it's just not the same. I wish I would have divorced my husband when my boys were very young. They would not have watched my husband verbally abuse me etc. I'm afraid they are going to think that is how you are supposed to treat your wife. I do not think people with BPD even realize what they are doing... so they cannot change. I'm afraid divorcing my husband when my boys are 11 and 14 would traumatize them and cause them so much pain.
 My husband speaks harshly about most people. But, two nights ago he started saying very very cruel things about my oldest son. Thankfully, he was in his room and could not hear my husband. He was talking lilofky and saying how freaking weird my 14 year old was "freaking weird" etc. He's never really attacked my kids before... .it's always other people. I'm now worried he's going to start it with my kids. I'm just tired and have no desire to work on my marriage anymore. I just go through my day trying to have as little interaction as possible with him. So... my advice is to leave when your kiddos are still small so that it does not affect them when they are older. (I really do not like recommending divorce... .but I wish someone would have told me to do it. )

Welcome to the forum. It's tough being on the receiving end of rages. It is also tough getting the silent treatment as I have done over the years with my exuBPDlover.

What you may find helpful is validation skills. These are something I am currently trying to negotiate myself. I am sure people will mention them on this thread.

It can seem like we are pandering to the whims of a pwBPD when we try to empathise with their position but validation skills can help take the intensity out of your arguments and provide a solid platform for meaningful discussion. Once the pwBPD is raging then they become empathically impaired and can think of nothing else but their own needs. If you can manage to take the intensity out of your interactions then you may find your arguments become less frequent. Her rages won't disappear, as they are characteristic of a pwBPD, but what you might be able to accomplish is make them less frequent and have more discussions about the real issues rather than get into a battle of wills.

Try this link https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

Good luck and keep posting!

RF

I remember the turning point in my relationship to my uBPDw when I learned to first, not react in anger, and secondly, to accept what she was saying outright.  Important skills I wish I had developed before.  It does not mean that I agree, but it made an amazing change when I could really wrap my head around the idea of stating "Okay, I can accept that is how you feel."  I also learned (learning) to use phrase that include "I feel... ."  those are hard statements to argue against - and while I'm not worried about her arguing, it does defuse things before they go boom.

We have a LOT in common. I have two young children and my wife has been exhibiting abnormal/scary/explosive behavior from the earliest days of our marriage. We have been married 7 years now. She works herself up into a violent rage. It was only recently, after getting my own therapist, that I even heard about BPD. Like you, I picked up the Eggshells book and I dove in. It seemed like they had cameras in my house explaining my exact situation! It was like reading a reality show of my home life with my wife.

Like you, I am constantly an "@$$hole" when it comes to our marriage, the kids, cleaning the house, etc. Usually, it is screamed out loud with the "f word" before it. I am no saint, but I can control my emotions and know that it is pretty darn improper to be screaming vulgar obscenities at family members. 

When I first started down this path, I began reading books about "how to get your wife to forgive you, etc". Each and every article or blog was about getting forgiveness after cheating, abuse, drug addiction. What if your spouse blows up at you merely because you are in the room? The marriage books about communication were pretty unhelpful as well. The one marriage counseling session she agreed to go to just became an airing of grievances by her (not as fun as the Seinfeld episode).

I have been physically attacked, punched and kicked. While I am a big dude and have not been badly harmed, the harm to my psyche and soul has been detrimental. Catastrophic.

I don't really know where I am heading either. So, it's good to hear from you. Through counseling, I have learned that it is pretty near pointless to plead with my spouse to get help. Instead, she turns it around that "i wouldn't attack you if you weren't such an @$$hole". You're probably well familiar.

There is no larger point that I hoped to make with responding. But, your words really resonated with me and my situation.

One thing that I'm really dealing with emotionally is my concern over my kids should we get a divorce/separation. My biggest concern is that my wife will turn all over her anger from me to the kids. I already see this happening. She became very abusive with a dog that we had previously (in addition to me). Not only does she yell obscenities at me in front of the kids, she's said some very abusive statements to our kids already. "You don't love me". "You wouldn't miss me if I was gone". "Nobody cares about me". Sorry, but cry me a river! I know that isn't the right response, but I am really struggling with this as well. Just speaking my mind. I was joking (it's ok to laugh) with my therapist the other day that it's like being married to Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh; except that Eeyore has an explosive temper in this instance.

I'm at a point where I am gathering names of attorneys. I haven't contacted them yet and I am not exactly at the point of "pulling the trigger". Instead, I woud like to privately consult to see what I am up against.

I'm there with you.  However, in my case, my wife is the passive aggressive, blamer, waif type wife.  She used to have rages, though those were more psychological warfare rather than open verbal violence.  She's far too self righteous to ever use a cuss word anyway.  But, the damge to me and the kids is there - maybe even worse for the kids because they can learn to recognize that when someone is screaming obscenities that they are not okay - but, when mom tells the kids that dad is mad (though he's not and doesn't show it anyway) it leaves them scared of a dad they don't see and can't understand, but, mom must be right.

Coincidentally, when I reached rock-bottom, I set about learning about how to be a better husband, and figure out intimacy in marriage, and so forth.  Only to discover I was fairly normal and none of the drastic things applies. I didn't have to overcome major sins, vices, or broad failings.  And yet, my wife was so displeased, judgemental, unhappy, and had projected and blamed me for everything for 17 years, at the time. 

Like you, I'm trapped staying married out of force of will so that mom doesn't manipulate and alienate the kids from me. I'm working on changing my thinking about that point of view.  I no longer believe it is better to stay when the day to day is unhealthy.


As for the Eggshells book, I actually had to stop reading the new edition, and took several months off before I could resume - because it was so real, so accurate, and hopeless.  And, I had to quit when it got to the "power tools" sections because it felt to me like it was teaching me just how to survive and stick around for more abuse.  Not what I needed at the time.  It's still a great book and resource. 

Did you ever try the "power tools"? I'd be curious to hear more of your story in this regard. When I am empathetic, the best I get is a shrugging of the shoulders from her. I guess that's better than being screamed at or kicked. But, is itreally a life?

I'm so very conflicted because this revelation is so new to me. Before, I just called it my wife's "abandonment issues". I kept holding out hope that she would be a happy, vibrant person one day. One article you read online says "there is hope"; the next article says something entirely different. My therapist says that I must accept that I will never have an intimate relationship with my wife even if I learn all of the tricks/methods. How is that "hope"?

I think your Therapist is onto something.  

I have figured out how to defuse conflict, and completely control my own anger (which is less and much easier now).  I can coexist with my wife in superficial calm.  By being the changed person, I was able to change my family somewhat.  Things in the house have improved.  

However, it is just a natural, and unavoidable consequence of my reality that I will never have an emotionally intimate, equal, loving, sharing, and beneficial marriage relationship with my wife.  The sun comes up in the morning.  Water is wet.  BPD is a foundational, core, essential part of the person.  While it is true that some people say they are recovered, cured, coping, healed, or whatever, I cannot accept that to be fully true.  I have read also that by the 40's most BPD sufferers stop exhibiting most of the troubling outward signs of BPD - however, I believe that means that by 40, anyone still in range of a person with BPD has been driven away, defeated, or themselves have been able to overcome the obstacles faced by living with someone with BPD.  

On the surface, someone could say that my wife has changed so much for the better.  I don't believe so.  One tragedy, one sleepless night, one stressor, and it rears its ugly head again.

I am not optimistic on this.  I do not take a light view of this concept of recovery from BPD.  Many here will disagree, and in fact there are whole discussion boards for recovery and improvement.  My reality is otherwise.  But, as I say, if you don't agree with someone, walk a mile in their shoes.  Then, if you still don't agree, you are a mile away and have their shoes. And, a freshly painted rotten board, is a rotten board.  You will have to choose to believe in recovery or not.  I believe we should conceive of BPD recovery in terms of recidivism at best, since there is no cure.  They are going to re-offend.

Please allow me a day or two to go back over the book to analyze my thoughts on the power tools.  A refresher might be good anyway.

Perhaps you can have one "from time to time".

I know that doesn't sound wonderful... .but it is better than never.

I see a Psychologist weekly.  She has seen my wife enough, that she pretty much has her figured out.

Push/pull is pretty bad in my wife.  She can't be intimate for too long (months) without blowing something up... .looks like sabotage. 

Anyway... .in pwBPD relationships... you have to be pragmatic.  What I figured out is I could keep my wife at a bit of arms length, basically firing up her "pull" cycle and then I pick times when I want to be "together".  I "reel" her in, enjoy some closeness and then before it gets "too long"... .I'm purposeful about creating some distance again.

wash rinse repeat.

Of course... there are times with BPDish stuff interrupts those cycles.  Pause... .don't engage... pick up the cycles and move along.

Now... .that works for me.  It will take trial and error in your r/s to see if it will work for you.

FF

Walkinthepark,

You mention reading "Eggshells",  wondering if you have read "Understanding the Borderline Mother" by Christine Ann Lawson.  I found this book explained not just my situation, but the prior two generations in xW's FOO. 

Some passages were so familiar it curled my toes.

Good luck. 

My "recovery" from being married to a partner with BPD (actually two marriages, as my previous partner was BPD/NPD/ASPD--so this one looks like BPD-lite), now finds me being very pragmatic, very much in control of my emotional expression, letting go of the romantic fantasy that entrapped me at the beginning, and looking out for myself and how to make the most out of this relationship.

At times, I feel like I'm becoming a narcissist--feeling exploitative about this relationship, as being with him there is much to be gained financially. This shocks me because I fell head over heels for this guy, but now I'm sizing up this marriage as beneficial economically to me and at times, little more.

@Stolen - I consider "Understanding the Borderline Mother" to be an advanced reader book.  It is just about the industry standard, and source I believe, when we talk about "Waif, Witch, Queen, Hermit" type BPD.  It help with my compassion too.  My wife got the way she is for a reason, and history.  The book was hopeful in its spirit - challenging the readers to finally break the generational cycle of BPD imprinting.  I also found pages that describe me - vividly so.  Have your feet on the ground before you read it.

@Cat - Thanks for your comments, as always.  You're a straight shooter, and have really gotten a hold of your (our collective) situations.  I'm sort of another version of you.  I have cut emotional ties to my wife.  I have figured out how to live without her in every way.  And yet, we share a religion, five kids, a mortgage, and mailing address (and a few bank accounts).  I am presently married for financial and logistical reasons.  I actually catch myself thinking of marriage as a contract to make two adults legally responsible for some kids, and nothing more.   I guess I am exploiting it too.  I would maybe feel bad if I was getting sex, or something emotionally one-sided from it, but it's business otherwise.  I don't like looking at myself like that.  I'm screaming inside to be free and finally honest, but trapped by reality.

I feel the same way... .about me.  I certainly had much to learn about self care when I got here... .largely I've improved/fixed that.  

I sometimes wonder if I go to far in "doing things for me" and "exploiting" my knowledge of relationship dynamics.  Usually when I start thinking about "I deserve xyz... ." and especially now that I have no compunctions about "being private".


FF

I think when we're not used to giving ourselves "self care" it can seem like we're being overly self focused.

As a child I was constantly getting the don't be selfish message from my BPD mother, who probably thought I was a terrible burden because I was a sickly kid. I remember feeling so shamed when I asked her to play a game with me when I was ill.

So I guess I've been tuned into fearing being selfish and not wanting to ask for anything for myself.

Now I try to take care of my own needs as much as possible without intruding upon my husband, but I'm becoming more willing to use the credit card he gave me for any purchases I might make at the hardware store.

It's ironic that I have hesitation or guilt about using his money when he's so willing to drop several thousands of dollars on a watch whenever he feels like it. I'm constantly noticing him wearing watches I've never seen before. I guess he's gotten tired of buying camera gear and watches are his new thing.

 
It's interesting how people figure out "their thing"

I haven't worn watches in years.  Yet when I want to work on a trailer, especially a horse trailer.  There is always money in the budget.

FF

No, I haven't. I will take a look. 

You guys are soo soo lucky. You actually get to have the argument. You get to walk away and leave your spouse having an argument with themselves. You'd better pray they don't become passive aggressive and just sit their seething like a viper. What I would give to be hit, get a black eye, even be hospitalised... .For my wife, if it's not vocal of physical, it doesn't count as anger.   

Enabler - I read your post a couple of times trying to remember when I wrote it, thinking it was my own post :)
I remember just wishing she'd hit me, scream, one more good rage and so forth.  Let's get it in the open.  Plus that would be tangible signs that it is time to end it.   Instead I live with a walking raw nerve who reads minds, jumps to conclusions, and interprets whatever meaning she wants.  And then brews it inside.
Stonewalling, projection, cold hostility and covert aggression.  Now my D16 is following moms footsteps.
Ugh

A bit off-topic, but this comment really brought me back.  One of xW's last rants before she moved out, ramping as usual to the black-eyed, vein-popping rage, she fixed me in her gaze and told me "For 25 years I have not been allowed to be mad!" 

Silly me, I thought the primary problem in our relationship was her recurring anger and rage. 

Oh well, I guess we all have our own perspectives... .

Stolen, I would love vein popping anger, you can do something with that, you can record it, there's hope that it slips out in public and your mutual friends might catch a glimpse into your world. The irony is that for my uBPDw she has a perfect example to observe her own behaviour... .my MIL. We can discuss her mothers inappropriate behaviours till we're blue in the face, yet she just can't see the similarities. Like you, my uBPDw believes that she's been verbally and emotionally abused by me for our entire 16yr marriage. Who's to know if this is projection or whether or not she is so in the dark about her own behaviours she only sees the reaction from me towards her in response. For them the ground isn't shaking that's their normal.

Hey Enabler,

Quick hijack to this thread.  I don't think I know your story yet.

I'm curious how you react to passive aggressive "seething" from your wife? 

Pragmatism is critical in a relationship with a pwBPD.  Typcially ST (silent treatment) allows the non to go on about their day in "relative" ease (compared to someone following around the house yelling... .or worse).

Just curious... .glad you found us.


FF

Another comment that brought me right back... .    xMIL was/is the epitome of the Queen/Witch, xW as well as her siblings all spoke to suicidal ideation during their childhood.
For the entirety of our r/s, xW remained pathetically enmeshed with her abusive mother, she just could not escape the well laid FOG.  She would implore me after countless contacts with her mother "If I ever become like her, just take me out in the backyard and kill me".  And then for decades would tell others, "Thank God for Stolen, otherwise I'd wind up like the rest of my family".

I would happily skip off down the road, considering this the best work of my life. 

And then - the switch was clicked, and life went upside down so rapidly I suspected a brain tumor. 

How do they not see it?  The recurring pattern?  The damage that was done to them now being done to their own children?  How can they not see it?

What a destructive and maddening disorder.

My ex-husband was very extreme on the BPD scale: suicide threats, physical and verbal abuse, property damage, infidelity, financial irresponsibility, drug use.

I got out of that relationship 20 years ago and I've never regretted it for a minute. My only regrets were that I stayed way too long.

Recently I got an update phone call from my ex-nephew. I had always liked him for his sunny disposition and optimism. He and my ex-mother-in-law were the only two seemingly normal members of that family. He wanted to let me know that she had passed away and he gave me updates on all the other family members.

There was a lot of mental illness in that family that expressed itself in various ways:

Ex's father had died of alcoholism when ex was a boy. He had been jailed many times for fighting, couldn't keep a job, took nudie photos of random women--which his wife (my mother-in-law) found and burned after he showed my ex when my ex was a small child

Ex's oldest sister can't keep a job. She threatened a boyfriend with a gun. Her sister had to call the cops on her recently when she was assaulting her.

Ex's other sister (the assaultee) is a serious hoarder--like ones you see on TV

Ex's nephew is financially irresponsible and sexually irresponsible.

Ex's niece is a hermit.

Ex's other nephew was sexually irresponsible, instigated fights and ultimately died of AIDS.




The psychologist I see doesn't want to distinguish between the various personality disorders because she sees tremendous overlap between them. They certainly do seem to run in families, as so many members here have noticed.

Hey Formflier... .well I think up till now I have handled the silent treatment very very very badly. I don't want to be thought of by uBPDw in a negative way, I'm a bit of a classic nice boy, I want to do nice things for people and I want people to do nice things for me and I want people to think that I'm a nice person... .so, when I can't tally my behaviour with a negative behaviour from uBPDw I want to establish the cause and return the situation back to me being perceived as nice. There's likely a thousand reasons for this but I'll summarise a few:
- I think the world is full of nice people who do nice things for other people, if I am nice to them they will be nice back
- When uBPDw is angry with me, bad things happen... .this comes from 20yrs experience of cause and effect
- Experience tells me that rather than the usual situation of leaving a person to get over themselves and they will come to a rational conclusion, leaving situations results in a spiral of anger that gets more extreme rather than less. A compunction to nip it in the bud.
- Pride
- It's disruptive to being able to get stuff done even from the perspective of what you have for dinner. If I were to respect her ignoring me and just cooked a dinner of my choice... .then I'm labelled controlling!

So... .I can tolerate the silent treatment for a bit (couple of days) before asking "have I done something wrong? are you in a mood with me? What has changed?" which is typically met with denial. Then, and this typically takes several weeks I get angry and usually rant for 5 minutes about how it's cruel to be ignored for so long and we need to sort "this" out... .and then I'm called abusive. uBPDw perceives herself as very much the victim (permanently, and has been victimised since birth, even though her actual level of abuse is significant less than some horror stories (BPD mum essentially)). It feels as though she manufactures situations which reinforce her feeling of being a victim, even though she herself generated the situation in the first place. It's like deliberately crashing your car into a wall then crying that your car is smashed up.

Being aware of my response to these behaviours is one thing, not responding or being emotionally hurt by them is another. I still very much love and care for my wife and want her to love and care for me back.

Got it... .very much like I used to be... and sometimes still am.

Many times us "nons" get thoughts in our heads which we need to "flip" to get to a healthier place.  Even if our current thoughts aren't "on the face of it" bad... .we can usually agree (see) that they are not working.

So... .do something different.





Controlling is not bad... .

One of the most powerful things you can do with an upset person is to agree with them... .

"Yes I am controlling of the food I eat."  end... done... .go enjoy your meal.


Few other things.

Stop asking "what is wrong".  More open ended... .

"Anything on your mind?  I've got 10 minutes free time to talk... "

I'll hush for now.

Thoughts?

FF

FF, I agree in theory however, uBPDw has friends who deem (although doubtfully they have ever experienced) that type of "Controlling" as "Coercive Control"... .thus abuse. Telling children off is also abuse apparently. I am neither FWIW and I cannot stress the strongly enough. Someone who's a coercive control does not "allow" their wife to go out several times a week to get smashed up in the local pub with her male "friend" in the village. It's somewhat a perfect chess move of anything you say and do is abusive and no one can prove otherwise and lets be honest, the hot blonde is far far more believable than the slightly overweight bald bloke! Standing up for myself is just fuel on the fire at the moment and I need the fire to recede so I can start the uphill battle to rebuild with the tools.

Ummm... .so what?

How do the beliefs of her friends influence your decision(s)?


FF

At the moment my decision is to stand and not make things worse with the hope that eventually I can help make things better or learn to improve the quality of both of our lives and the lives of our 3 wonderful (emotionally sensitive) children. The "others" are not determining my decision but encouraging a person whom already seeks a source of her unhappiness and perma victimhood. So, my actions of setting rules (they're not really boundaries) and reacting to rein in inappropriate behaviour is only feeding the "others" and uBPDw the "evidence" (albeit one sided) they need to further push her towards what I believe to be a ruinous decision to split up our family. I further cannot see how uBPDw "freeing herself from the bondage of being under my oppressive regime" as being the solution to her life happiness... .Actually I see it as likely to be used as an reason for her life long misery, me being the cause leaving her with 3 kids to raise on her own. This perpetuating her concrete shoes in the victim spot. I have to consider other people's opinions even if I believe them to be complete codswallop as they influence outcomes... .And yes that does mean I am painting a rainbow to a pot of doom, but hey, 20yrs of experience tells me this is how it's likely to play out.

@ Enabler: What would you like to see happen?  I can't tell from your post.  LJ

I would like my wife to stop dysregulation, stop painting me black, I would like her to continue working with the therapist she has in the hope that the therapists sees inconsistencies and helps her towards a self enlightenment moment, I would like to keep daily interaction with my children and I would like to stay married to my wife, help her work through her issues whilst working trough my own which have resulted from te years of torture.

To do this I plan on being the man she was originally attracted to, the man I am rather the man I have become. Kind, loving, caring, compassionate, a chaos reducer, organised, solution orientated, problem solver but maybe less rescuer. I was the ying to her yang, the thing she needed to balance her own chaos (which I might add is tough to sustain in the face of so much chaos and hurt gene where I am now). Although this reversion to type is not garanteed to make any changes to her behaviours at least I will be me plus her behaviours may become more noticeable to her since she will have less of an ability to project away her own pain.

But accept that only my own side of the decision tree is determinable by me. Ultimately the outcome is determined by her, which I accept. I had my own radical acceptance that I will never have what we had at the beginning of our relationship again. That was an illusion

@ Enabler, your earlier posts sound angry.  Are you looking for a fair fight with your wife when you want her to see something as you do? 
Are you looking for a facet of this conflict that you can fight and win - without the judgements of others?
Are you looking to blow off steam and vent here?  Because that's okay too, up to a point.

I was going crazy dealing with my wife's behavior.  She was more acting-in, whereas yours seems more acting-out, but, it was wrong and hurtful nonetheless.  I went through a lot of internal hostility, and I felt a lot of anger too.  I had to process and realize the ending of my imaginary marriage that was good and worthwhile.  I now see some good, but, I take it with the bad too.  My eyes have been opened.  I have no more desire or real ability to fight with my wife.  Her reality is ever changing.  It doesn't matter if I win an argument, or fight, or get my way.  It would be like bottling the wind.  Empty and of no value. 

Maybe spend some time taking an inventory of your feelings and looking at the direction you want to take in your life.  We often have more peace when we attempt to control the thing we can control - meaning ourselves alone.

The opportunity to have a balanced, healthy, and full marriage to your current wife is not going to be realized.  We cannot bend nature, or her core personality.

I hear you, Enabler. You don't like what this marriage has turned you into, and you want to try to be who you remember being when you were happy. You hope that by leading the way, your wife will also revert to an earlier self.

Unfortunately ... .it's really hard to just rewind the clock. I don't think I've ever seen this be successful. You are right that you can only change yourself, but there are reasons that you aren't the person you used to be, and those reasons won't go away if you just try to act as if they no longer apply.

Have you taken a look at any of the lessons and resources here? Quite a few of them address techniques you can use to try to improve your relationship while staying fully aware that a relationship with a dysregulated person with BPD isn't going to be normal in many ways. This may be a more productive path than trying to stuff the genie back in the bottle.

SamwizeGamgee - I don't WANT any fights with my wife, I want peace and harmony and her to think nice things about me... .actually scratch that... .I don't want her to think bad things about me. I think I mentioned before that I care about the bad thoughts because bad thoughts = acting out = more bad thoughts about me because "I made her" = more acting out. Negative thoughts and rumination are the start of the emotional cascade which is self feeding. I am not angry, I'm frustrated about my helplessness to iron out negative thoughts and emotions which ultimately lead to her further unhappiness, my own life disruption and loss of a loving caring companion... .albeit the illusion of one. I do not see a diagnosis of BPD (or not) as a reason to walk away from my marriage, I would not divorce her if she was diagnosed with Alzheimers nor would I even consider life paths which did not include being married. If she chooses this herself that is up to her. I very much liked your comment re bottling the wind... .that makes a lot of sense to me and encapsulates the futile nature of "winning" in these types of relationships.

Flourdust - I have no plans to attempt to rewind the clock, however I have to accept that I have turned into a man that is neither the man I would like to be nor a man that meets the emotional needs of my wife. I have in essence caught flees. The man I would like to be is the man I was, with the addition of knowledge and understanding of myself and experience of the last 20 years (good and bad) plus the useful tools to manage a situation I now know that I am in... .so in essence a Me++ version. The genie is out and having a party. 


The irony is that I can see in this chain how I am desperate to be understood. It's so easy to hook me in, wound me and my response is to try and further clarify my feelings and the situation. ":)oes everyone understand what I meant... .anyone got any further questions... .hands up if you're confused... .Are we all on the same page?" Is this a function of my experience over the last 20yrs... .not sure... .I do know that the preservation of historical memory is important in my r/s with uBPDw as it's constantly referred to and weaponised by her and constantly warped by her changing emotional landscape.

I see a lot of me, especially what used to be me in your posts.

I've been focused on the process of change (for me) for a couple years, before that I was focused on changing my wife for "couple years" (right after I read SWOE)

Much of this stuff is "counter-intuitive".  My wife is clearly "the problem" (paranoia mainly) yet my relationship has "calmed" much more after I focused on me.

Here is the thing that is hard for me to accept, yet I do accept it.  I was "part" of the problem, because I decided to "keep dancing" with my wife.  She was trying to fill a vast... ."unfillable"... .emotional need within her.  I was "loving her"... ."helping her"... .whatever you want to call it.

Here is another "truth".  My wife is going to "keep dancing".  Yet... .if I stop... .or change the music... she is forced to change, even is she doesn't like it.  She "at least" wants to keep me on the dance floor, so she will change behavior to make that happen.





At some point, you are going to have to let your wife think... what she thinks.  How much more energy are you going to dump into "her thoughts". 

Dude... it's scary in there.  Stop looking.

Head back up and re-read my opening.  My wife changed her behavior... .about zero chance she changed her thoughts about me.

Very likely she still thinks I've got a harem of women that I bang on a regular basis.  (note... .every once in a while... .I pick some of her dysfunctional thoughts to "keep"... .this would be one of them.  I added a redhead about a month ago... .)





Again... .you are frustrated by dumping energy into controlling something that you have no control over.

Why keep doing this? 

What do you have control over?

Where should you be putting your energy?




Stick with this thinking... .about all aspects of her life.  I like to use the word "respect".  She is an adult... "respect" her choices.  Even if they are not "respectable".



I would challenge you to start a brand new thread on this.  Don't mention your wife... .not once.  Write out what you will "look" like in one year.

Now... .that's a place to put your energy.


Yep... .it appears you are basing "success" on a disordered person "understanding" you.  Correct?

How has that been working out for you?

Stay strong brother!  It can get better... .it really can. 

FF

FF... .you have a looking glass into my head.

Agree wholeheartedly agree re my current path /  direction and where I want to be hence now not wasting energy on trying to make her see my sense. I'm feeling my way around how I can be about ME without running into inevitable conflicts which at the moment are making things worse. My current solution is to be true to myself core beliefs about my personality whilst making somewhat of a sacrifice in life to avoid the conflicts. I kinda liked this quote from Beautiful Creatures:

Reverend Stephens: I don't want to preach today, instead I just wanna talk to you, about a word we don't hear much anymore. Sacrifice. It's not what I would call a modern word. People hear the word sacrifice, and they become afraid that something will be taken away from them or that they will have to give up something they couldn't live without. Sacrifice, to them, means loss in a world telling us we could have it all. But I believe true sacrifice is a victory. That's because it requires free will to give up something for someone you love, or something or someone you love more than yourself. I won't lie to you. It's a gamble. Sacrifice wont take away pain and loss, but it wins the battle against bitterness, the bitterness that dims the light on all of the true value in our lives.

And a weird quote from Spiderman 2

Aunt May: You know, it's so funny I've been trying to clean up around here to be more organized and putting some of Ben's stuff in boxes, and it's so funny, the heavier the box gets the lighter I feel.
Peter Parker: You're throwing his stuff away?
Aunt May: No, god no, I couldn't do that it's part of me, I'm just finding a better place for it. I'm going to take one last look, and I'm going to put it where it belongs.

NOW is about giving up something for someone I love more than myself, whilst taking my baggage parking it up to make ME lighter to move forward.

You are soo close... .

Remember... .many of the "correct" or "healthy" strategies are counter-intuitive.

What if you "flipped it" and "embraced" conflict?  What is you "allowed" conflict? 

What if you got rid of "avoid conflict" from your vocabulary?

What if you let your wife experience the natural and logical results of her choice to engage in conflict?

What if you "respected" your wife's choice to use conflict as a manipulative tool?

What if you no longer "feared" conflict?

What if you primarily focused on boundaries for you to "protect" yourself from conflict... .very different than "avoiding" it... .or more specifically... .to "avoid" your wife "initiating" conflict.

What if... .

How would things "look" differently if you took this onboard and I was "watching" you "do" conflict with your wife.

Take some time and reflect on this... .describe the results in detail.  Especially about what YOU do.  Let you wife "do" whatever she feels like... .not your circus.

FF

I do understand this. To tell you where I am coming from, I'm currently divorcing my BPDw. I'm single for the first time in 16 years. The only way I know how to be single is how I was in the '90s. Should I try to emulate an older, wiser version of that person?

Let me just give you just one more thought on this. The man you were 20 years ago (and the man I was 16 years ago) was the fool who got you into this mess in the first place. He wasn't better ... .he was just naive and made dumb relationship decisions. Why would you want to be him when you can be someone better?

Nicely said, flourdust.  I know myself better now, after 16 years of marriage to a pwBPD, and can confirm that it's possible to move on to a healthier r/s with a new SO who doesn't have BPD.

LJ

FD is onto something here.

The "method" of decision making... .the "order of things" matters.

1.  Make some notes about who that guy was years ago.  The good the bad... all of it.
2.  Break out the list of what you didn't like about him and also the parts of him that didn't work out so well, even if you liked that part.  A hard look at results.

3.  Come up with focused list of what you are NOT going to be in the future.  This will ensure you don't "reinvent" yourself by going over well trodden yet unproductive ground.

4.  Then... .identify gaps.  What was that guy missing.  What needed to be adjusted

5.  Finished product.

Make sense?


I certainly found out that "putting others first" was something I liked about the old me... I really did like that.  But... .it screwed me... .hard... in a r/s with a pwBPD.  I had to really... .I mean really... .figure out that putting my self first was not "selfish" (even if a pwBPD was claiming that).

Furthermore... .that I could actually "help" more people... .by putting myself first.  I had more energy, more sleep, better mental focus... .etc etc.

I would never in a million years thought I would conclude what I did... .but I took a hard look at the "thought processes" that got me in various "fixes" that I "found myself in".

There was a theme... .

FF

I am so sorry you are in that position and feeling that way.  I feel a lot of what you said <3

I have known my Husband for 6 years.  Last 11 months he is acting opposite of the man I fell for and married.  It's insane to me because it is anger aimed at me for nothing or something totally out of my control (like how fast the car charger, charges.)

I am now 10 weeks pregnant and his rage has not settled down with the HUGE news.  We are 37 yrs old, 1st time marriage, 1st time baby.  The man I knew would be a great father if I ever had a child, is gone.  I am living with a stranger but as long as I keep my distance, I can rebuild my life which he has stomped all over, and see where he ends up.  With or without him, I will never allow my child to experience what he has become.

I am doing everything possible to save him, this marriage and me.  Recently, I got way burnt out and overwhelmed with everything on me own, struggling with life, and Husband I decided: I am taking care of me and my baby.  I gave him resources & phone numbers to call himself since he refuses to allow me to book him for any appts.  I called IHOT, which is an organization which contacts loved ones with mental disorders, to help them into therapy.  They also offer me counseling to pull myself together, too. 

I allowed myself to get lost in his mental illness.  11 months ago, I blamed me for his insanity rages cus he never acted that way, I must have done something.  He was raging at me, so yes, it had to be me even tho it made no sense the word salads... .Well, within months I saw I was being manipulated, and started standing up for myself.  WOW.  I think this is where I decided I wanted a Divorce.  Those arguments turned into bloodbaths where no one was spared.  I pleaded with him to stop abusing me because I do not know what I will do next.  He continued, and now we know: he is killing us and I am not fighting for him anymore-I am fighting for my life and my baby.  If he ends up with us it will be because he gave effort into addressing his disorders. 

Why after 5 years together this new guy showed up?  I have my hunches.  BPD are deathly afraid of abandonment.  11 months ago, I began to walk again after a decade of severe illnesses.  He was there for the last 5 years.  He was my Angel, day and night.  He saw me though: Epilepsy, Colitis, black outs, anemia, Cirrhosis, gastritis, acid reflux disease---and more.  I was barely alive, and he was always there.  I never give up, so I healed all that I just stated with natural remedies.  Within 1 year, I baffled all the Drs who said I would die.  And 11 months ago, I said I am finally ready to go back to work and school PLUS move.  With him ofcourse.  But, that's when I saw cracks.  It only gets worse without treatment. 

I am very open with my communication so he has heard all I have to say, have said and write.  Whether he remembers or believes me, we shall see.  With or without him, I made a promise to myself: I will never be abused as I was my entire life and I sure as hell would NEVER allow my baby near abuse of any kind.  Abuse is a cycle within families and communities, and I am breaking the cycle.  It just shocks me, breaks my heart, he is going against everything we promised to eachother... .my Husband would never allow this new guy (my Husband) near me and baby. 

He doesnt drink or do drugs... .and I already tried to say I am the crazy one but no authority people believe me or will take me away to a looney bin... .I wish it was me, I could handle that.

Angelbuds, I'm sorry that you find yourself pregnant and dealing with this, this should be a magical time for you and your H. I sounds like your H is clouding this time for you. It sounds like you've had a very hard time in the last decade but by the sounds of things your courage and determination is reaping rewards with mobility and pregnancy.

Has your H been diagnosed with BPD or is this a suspicion? It sounds like there are a lot of changes going on in your relationship, a huge change in the dynamic from him being your carer for the first 4 years (assume given your inability to walk and near death). Some people (myself included) value themselves and gain emotional security from being able to provide for their partner. You being completely dependent on him maybe gave him a huge sense of security and self worth. You are best placed to see whether your H is lacking the security, purpose and identity he once felt being your constant rescuer. How can you help him redefine himself as Significant in your life where he feels a renewed sense of purpose and security. I don't think you should encourage caretaking or rescuing as you want to be a healthy thriving independent woman contributing to the partnership in a fuller way. Codependants also have huge fears of abandonment since their identity is defined by someone else. I found the below article helpful in understanding the dynamic

https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/enabling-101-how-love-becomes-fear-and-help-becomes-control-1018134

*mod*

This topic has been locked due to reaching the maximum post count. Please feel free to start a new topic if you would like to continue this conversation.