BPDFamily.com

Thank you all for your support. My feelings around loss is that it takes time. You cannot cheat time. She did get in contact with me last night and here is the conversation:

Her: How's things in your world?
Mr: Ok I guess
Her‬: What's wrong?
Me: You mean apart from you  leaving a conversation and not talking for 3 days?
Her: I've not been in a good place - I'm sorry if I hurt you
Me: Ok thank you. How are you?
Her‬: Not well - I can't get my head sorted
Me: What's going on in your head?
Her: I can't really explain without appearing over dramatic but I feel the need to be dead
Me: Yes you have talked about that alot. Are you feeling that on a daily basis?
Her‬: Yes and the feeling gets stronger
Me: Do you think you will act on it?
Her‬: I hope not
Me: If you do, promise that you will talk to me first.
Her‬: I will I promise. Night x
Me: Night x

I purposely put up a boundary last night because if she is going to treat me like her counsellor then I think it is fair to put up a boundary about how she leaves conversations. I am actually angry at the way she is dipping in and out of these conversations but if she is in crisis then I guess she needs somebody to talk to.

I am still suspicious that there is something else going on that she isn't telling me. She gives no detail about her life or what she has been up to and I have stopped posting things about what I'm doing on FB, though she can see my interactions with family and friends.

She did apologise for hurting me and I let it go due to what I consider her state of mind may be. I don't know if I am capable of a platonic r/s with this woman. I can feel anger, resentment and disappointment in me every time she makes contact.

Ducks, I take great heart in what you have said about it taking time to learn validation skills. Even though I am up and down emotionally regarding this r/s, I have resolved to try to help her.

I have also decided to talk to her about the suicide threats. I feel that if I do this in a validating way, I may be able to have a constructive conversation around it. These are tricky waters so help is appreciated. So far we have this today:

Me: Are you ok?
Her: Still here! How are you?
Me: Glad to hear it. It struck me today that you've been suicidal on and off for a great deal of your life  The fact you are still here must mean that you actually want to be, despite what your head tells you. Have I got that correct?
Her: I have never wanted to upset others which I'm guessing they would be but now the feeling has become as unemotional as flicking the off switch on a machine
Me: Yes, you say that often about upsetting others. Is that the only reason you are still here?
Her: That and the dread that with my luck it wouldn't happen and I'd be left a vegetable
Me: Yes, that is a reasonable concern. How would it feel to wake up and still be here again?
Her‬: I've been there - pretty damn ___
Me: Is there another choice to be made do you think? So you never have to feel that  

I'll update any reply.

Here is the rest of the above conversation:

Me: Is there another choice to be made do you think? So you never have to feel that again?
Her: Rethink my modus operandi?
Me: Is suicide the only choice you see?
Her: It may very well come to that unless I can sort my fecking head out... .
Me: I understand you feel that now. Last year you texted me to say you felt good. I think it was around the time we saw that band the second time. I commented at the time that I had rarely heard you say that. Do you remember that at all?
Her: I don't.
Me: You texted me one day to say that you felt good. I was goiing to ask if you remember what gave you the sense of well being?
Her: Probably a feeling of self worth
Me: Right. I can really relate to that. Always feel great when I get a job or I'm with you or playing the piano. Do you know what was giving ypu the self worth?

I was wishing I hadn't mentioned the part about being with her as she may view this as manipulation which it isn't meant ro be but then I realised she hasn't yet read that last bit from me. However, it is much simpler than I thought. Her self esteem is on the floor. In my view this is to do with her image of herself, which is always unstable in a pwBPD. She is getting old, she feels unnoticed and unvalued. My next tact would be to mention her children but her moods have often been affected by the way she perceives they are treating her. Her husband is ill and losing his stability according to her.

I don't know what else to say but my instinct is to talk about the things that give her self esteem. She has awareness about it at least. I am concerned she may attempt suicide. Is there anything I can say that could help?

Hi RF,

I'm sorry to hear that your girlfriend is talking about suicide. I can tell from your text convos with her that you care. I think that is the most important thing that needs to be conveyed in times like these. A listening ear, validating her feelings, and asking her how you can help will go a long way, in my view.

Have you seen this thread? It's chock full of info. that can help:

Suicide Ideation in Others (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79032.msg778608#msg778608)

Keep us posted.

heartandwhole

This is very very difficult stuff RF.

By my understanding, she has mentioned, trying to find a reason to get up/wake up in the morning,  that she is so profoundly depressed nothing brings her joy, that upping the medication was her last resort, and that she feels she is heading for a crisis.

I see that H&W linked you to another thread.   It was the same one I was going to link you too.   From that thread is the suggestion to get help from persons or agencies specializing in crisis intervention and suicide prevention.   Often you can call anonymously.   There is a lot to be said for speaking to a trained professional live.

Skip wrote the second reply in the link thread.   Here is part of what he said:


I think the last part is the most important and the most difficult.   Avoid arguments and advice giving.   It has been my experience that when people reach this level of despondency they truly believe that nothing will change and nothing they do will help.    You can not talk them out of that feeling, they have to find it within themselves.    That can take a very long time.

Go ahead and take a look at the link, and let us know what you think.

'ducks

Sunflower: I Totally relate to this. Thank you for sharing.

This is HUGE

Very uncomfortable... .

Anxiety

Emptiness

Grief

Confusion

But the more we put them off the bigger they arE

She attempted suicide a few weeks back... .this is a very tenuous and serious situation.

What is going on with her post impatient treatment? Is she seeing a professional regularly? Is she taking medications? Is she talking with her husband? Family?

I wish I had the answers. All I know is that she was seen by the crisis team when she made the attempt. She tells me that her medication had been upped a few days ago but it is not working. She has depression related to a lack of dopamine in her system. That is what the medication is for.

She told me that her husband is ill (he had throat cancer some years ago and is not in good health) her youngest son lives at home and has autism and addiction issues and is driving her nuts. I don't know if there is any follow up care but I will ask her next time we speak. She goes to four AA meetings a week and is doing shifts ironically at a suicide prevention charity. Her other two children live away from her home town but seem relatively sensible and I will particularly encourage her to speak with her daughter who is a healthcare professional.

While I am alarmed at her words and very deeply concerned about her, this is not the first time she has expressed these kinds of feelings but I have never heard her say that she feels like she could flick out her life like a switch.

I saw on WhatsApp that she checked her phone at 4pm this after noon and I left a message for her at 9.15pm to which she hasn't yet replied.

Thanks for the support all.


I will do this.


I will read this.


Thanks for this. She works for a well known suicide prevention charity. I am going to encourage her to talk to somebody there also.

Latest interaction at 10.30pm tonight:


I will keep you updated on any replies. She is dipping in and out of conversations very sporadically but at least she is talking to me. Please let me know if you think there is anything else I should suggest.

Just checking in with you RF,   how are you doing?

Hi Ducks,

I am ok thank you. The ex says she is still suicidal and I have been in regular contact since last week. I have assured her that I am here if she needs to talk. I left her to spend time with her daughter yesterday but then she said she was still feeling suicidal after her daughter left. I suggested that she tell a member of her family how she feels, while being careful to tell her that I am here.

Then tonight (after a day of very little contact from her) she said she can't explain her feelings easily and I pointed out that she has explained them very succinctly: namely it is to do with lack of self worth. I gave a precis of our conversation about her feelings around suicidal ideation but she didn't reply. I suggested that she may be being evasive with me because she doesn't want to tell me something. I said if that is the case then she needs to tell somebody she trusts. I told her that sitting with suicidal feelings was not a good idea. I finished by saying: I am here, you are not alone.

I told her I felt she was being evasive because if there is something she doesn't want to tell me, then I want to encourage her to speak to somebody she feels comfortable talking to. I do feel there is something she is not telling me. I don't know what it is but I just have a sense there is something that she won't reveal. If I'm wrong then she will talk to me, if I am right then I have encouraged her to talk to somebody else.

I have done all I can. I have shown her kindness, understanding and empathy and most of all I have made it clear that I am here for her. It does get a little wearing thinking she is going to do it at any moment and not having her talk to me properly, but if she is depressed then that is how it manifests itself. I am trying to remain understanding and helpful. It's not always easy for me because I don't know how to help a suicidal person by texting - especially when they won't engage. It is extremely unsatisfying and is making me feel frustrated but I have offered her my ear.

Meanwhile I am getting on with my life and I had a good weekend with my wife. Nothing has really changed in my r/s and we jog along fine together. I do feel discontented and I miss the fix of my ex but I have seen her once this year romantically and that was 6 months ago, so I am back on the righteous path I guess... .

Well RF,   I am no expert but I think there is a time for walking on egg shells and a time to smash a few egg shells.    To me this is a time for walking gently on egg shells.   

I think by it's very definition suicidal ideation is a lack of self esteem.    I would hesitate to draw any conclusions about cause and effect.    which came first the chicken or the egg.   

    

Yes I can see how it would feel that way to you.    You are invested.    You have a hoped for outcome. and you are right you have done what you could.   

Radical acceptance gives me the strength to stand in the moment and discover the path forward.   It might not be what I want, what I had devotedly hoped for, but this is what I have today.   If I can accept it,  Stop trying to change it, fight against it, or re-organize things more to my liking.   I can discover a path forward.    Who was the pundit who said 'let go or be dragged'.  who ever it was should have written the book on 'how to let go for dummies'.

For me I let go slowly and in stages.   Definitely wasn't like a light switch.    There was a time of grief and a time of regrouping.   Actually I think I am still regrouping.

Even though you haven't seen her in 6 months you are still pretty attached I think.   Do you have any strategies for letting go?   

'ducks

RF, I'm sorry to be a little harsh. But when you quote your exchanges with her, practically every time, you make it about you in some fashion, usually by offering yourself, your role, as some sort of answer to her feelings; sometimes by making an issue of her silences and withdrawals FROM YOU. Also, you argue with her about her own feelings and perceptions ("I can't easily explain my feelings;" "yes you can". My sense is it's hard for you to see that you are negating her feelings because you are generally providing some sort of compliment ("you were very skilled in telling me about your feelings last time". But it's still you telling her what is true about her.

This is not about you. I recommend repeating 1000 times to yourself "this is not about me and I don't have a role in addressing it."

There is a narcissism in introducing ourselves as a solution to the messed up state of mind of our partners. I spent years doing it with my exH so I am familiar with the sense of obligation, honor, duty, whatever, that drives that.  The fact is the most we often can contribute is conveying "I hear you, I'm sorry it feels so hard and painful," and then make a ton of space.

She cuts out of conversations with you when you take over. That's my perception. I have a strong aversion to engulfment myself and those convos would make me shut down too.

I think less is more here. Just acknowledge you heard what she is telling you. You can ask her to explain why she feels or thinks as she does, rather than arguing with what she tells you. You can listen to understand rather than to change or fix.

Hi Ducks,


I agree. Perhaps the comment about there is something she isn't telling me wasn't helpful in retrospect. Apart from that, I have kind of been walking on eggshells with her. I am becoming alarmed though because she is shutting down and it could be to do with her depression rather than anything I'm doing.


I think people kill themselves for all kinds of reasons, but I think in her case her self esteem is the root cause of it.


The main problem I have with this situation is I don't know how close she is to another suicide attempt. In the past she has told me many times that she is suicidal or severely depressed and I have often been able to talk and help her. My old style geeing her up works when she is depressed but because the nature of our r/s has changed the old suggestions are no longer what she wants to hear. My radical acceptance has to be around the nature of the r/s.


I suppose I am unsure of how to let go other than take our personal r/s out of the equation. I find it extremely difficult to do.

Hi P&C,


I don't think the conversations on this thread have been about me or our r/s. I agree I was doing that while I was trying to deal with the initial pain of the break up or detachment but I have tried to make these conversations about her feelings. Perhaps the most recent one wasn't quite as successful.


This is about getting to grips with the nature of validation. I agree I was doing that but I think the conversations on this thread show a more successful approach as she carried on talking to me. I think the most recent conversation was perhaps less successful. Add tiredness, exasperation and frustration into the equation and the empathy skills wane a little. I'm not a trained counsellor unfortunately or I'd be better at the validation. I'm learning how to do it in a crisis situation with somebody I love. So, yes, it is a bit hit and miss.


I don't feel like her state of mind is about me. I guess the role I have in redressing it is to be there for her. I certainly don't feel like I can 'save her' or any kind of rescue fantasies of that ilk. Once upon a time, yes, but not anymore.


I certainly do have narcissistic tendencies at times but I think suggesting myself as a solution was because I genuinely thought it would help her in the way that it did in the past. Earlier this year (before the break up) she felt depressed and I went to see her and she said she felt much better afterwards. So this isn't just coming out of a place of narcissistic self indulgence. However, both the nature of our r/s has changed and she is clearly more depressed now than 6 months ago and so that solution now seems inappropriate. I certainly haven't been talking about us meeting up in the last week. I have been focusing on listening, exactly as you have outlined.


She has always cut out of conversations. It was one of the things that made me break up with her. It was also the source of great conflict between us in the past as I thought she was playing games with me. However, most of the time she is sneaking about her home with her husband watching her and so she has no choice but to conduct conversations in this way.

However, I am certain that she also does feel engulfment. Had I known about BPD in years gone by, I perhaps could have conducted my text conversations differently. I think I am possibly the wrong kind of person for her to be with,especially as I am a natural communicator and she is less so.  It does say in the literature that BPDs and narcissists often end up together, assuming I am somewhere on the lower end of the NPD spectrum. Interestingly, it seems to me that she is scared off very easily in texts, but much less so face to face. Not sure why really.


I don't think I have been arguing with her. I think what I have been doing is trying to bring some positivity into our conversations but I get that this is not helpful with suicidal ideation. Apart from the most recent conversation, I feel the validation was getting better. At least she is still talking to me, albeit not as openly.

I have a concern I'm going to try to voice, not sure if my words will come out articulate, but going to try.

I recall somewhere you saying you were going to leave her be and focus on your marriage.  Then I recall somewhere you saying something to the affect of, well, I will not engage with her unless it is about the topic of her being suicidal.  

My concern is that our behavior communicates volumes.
At one point, she asks you how you are, and you do not respond to that question by her, instead, you bring up the topic of suicide.  (Effectively shifting focus off of you, back onto her, her in a victim role.)

My concern is that if you have set some personal boundary to only speak to her about suicide, or something similar, this in fact could be a form of "positive reinforcement" to her suicidal ideations.  Even if you never announce this to her, she may pick up on the fact that to get engagement with you, it is conditional on her speaking of suicide.

If this woman is in fact suicidal, I urge you greatly, to consistently redirect her to appropriate mental health professionals to engage her on this topic.  You may even want to out loud claim to her that you are not qualified to speak on certain topics of mental illness/depression/suicide, etc, as it is "best left to professionals."

Also, it is very common for pwBPD to try to gain interactions with folks by claiming a "victim status" and they often use self harm as a way to get attention for their inner pain and turmoil.  Many therapists actually themself have a rule of only speaking to a client about positive coping mechanisms prior to a self harm act but not allowing the client to be seen immediately following a self harm act.  The point is to not reinforce the behavior and not give it attention.  Likewise, In the case of your ex, it is possible that suicidal thinking is being reinforced to her via you inadvertently via the behavior you engage in.

My point... .
Suicide is a serious topic.  It is typically, imo, best one left to professionals.  
If someone is expressing such thoughts, imo, if I think they are in immediate danger... .
-best to call emergency personelle to look into it
If I think they are not in immediate danger... .
-only ask enough questions to gather if they could be in immediate danger, then refer them to resorces, treat them as though they are competent enough to choose getting their own help.  (After all, we canot will or beg someone into treatment, it IS ultimately their choice.  Maintaining treating them as a "helpless" schema mode is not empowering to them.). Continue to redirect them to resources, when that is completed in a few sentences, then move onto another topic, as imo, there is nothing for us to solve or gain by engaging in suicidal conversations with someone as long assuming this is not our client seeking treatment from us.

Her feelings are for her to manage, or seek help for via a professional.

Seems best in relationships to know where we begin and end, and to be responsible for only our own feelings.

If not, things can get muddy.

... .

I guess with all of this you run a risk... .
Will she still speak to you if you deny discussions about suicide?
Will you feel rejected?
How will you prepare yourself emotionally if she does decide to start distancing from you?
What coping skills are in your tool box to practice?
What more ones can we equip you with?

Thinking that no matter the situation... .
Helping you to identify coping skills
And also aquire more tools for coping with your feelings
Is the most productive course here.

I wonder if you will discuss tools you are using, have found helpful, and how we can help you deal with unconfortable feelings and thoughts?

I think RF's "heart" is in the right place. 

I'm concerned about the ability to use tools, the ability to "learn" tools in the midst of a potential crisis, the ability to self reflect on what RF's role may be in this dynamic.

Said another way, if the overriding principle is "First do no harm... ." I'm concerned about the potential for reinforcing bad behavior (suicide talk).

Am I prepared to definitively say or "make a judgement" about this?... .no I'm not.  Those that know me around here know I'm usually not shy about firmly sharing a point of view. 

I made a deliberate decision to step out of these posts and "watch and reflect" for a few days.  Sunflower, P&C, ducks and others are posing the hard questions.  I see RF taking on board "little bits" and I see a lot of "pushback" on notions that RF is misusing tools or strategies.

Given the seriousness of the situation, this concerns me greatly.

Said another way, this is stuff for a professional, RF's heart is in right place but he is not a professional.  The question should be pondered... .if RF was not part of this dynamic, would she go to a professional?

Perhaps another way, why would she go to a professional when she can get her "needs" me with RF via text and she can cut and run whenever she feels like it?

RF,

I'm retired military.  I'm a "structure guy".  Unfortunately military life/experiences can be stressful and many people have suicidal ideations.  Unfortunately many actually go through with it.  I've stood graveside while a guy I flew with for over 10 years was lowered into the ground.  Suicide while deployed.  Big investigation.  We'll never know why he did it, but we DO KNOW that the issue was handled outside the "structure" of military medicine.  Well meaning "amateurs" handled it.

Is is the fault of the "amateurs"?... .no... I wouldn't go that far, but they did play a role.  I know for a fact they wish they could go back in time. 

Am I "too close" to suicide to play a useful role in this thread?  Perhaps... .I'll let mods and others weigh in on that and I'll certainly respect their decisions.

Actually experiencing a suicide of someone you care deeply about is life changing.  I hope you NEVER experience that. 

FF

Hi all,

I will answer your points in more detail later. Just to say there is some valuable help in all of the points. Formflier has hit the nail on the head, my heart is in the right place. My only concern is to provide an ear for her. Any additional info I give to you guys about my own feelings does not get communicated. I have been encouraging my ex to seek professional help and talk to her family. I am not a doctor nor am I trying to become her 'amateur counsellor.'  I will say more later.

OK... .then only provide an ear... .no pushback... .no "counseling"... .no alternatives... .don't "guide" any conversations... .

Just provide an ear.

To me... it seems there is a big disconnect between what "your concern" is and "what you are trying to do" and what we (as a group) see on the texts.


Let me ask this another way.  

Is there anyone giving you feedback here that is saying you are on the right track?

FF

I'm listening to what people are saying. My ex is talking to me about how she feels. I don't think I am pushing.

I think people on here including yourself can see I am trying to do the right thing and there is more validation in the conversations. Considering where we were there is a major difference. I don't know if people here think I am the right track now, but I am asking for help and getting it.

I just want to address a very important issue:


I totally agree with this and I am not going to mention suicide unless she specifically wants to talk to me about it. I am not a health professional, as you say. Today we have been talking about what I'm up to as she asked me and last night she thanked me for my concern.


I think she is seeing her crisis team who supported her through her recent attempt, although somewhat intermittently.

If she mentions suicide to me again then I will listen to her and urge her to see a doctor.

FF, I am sorry for your loss. I have taken on board your point here and will heed it. I asked for advice from people here because I do NOT want to experience loss to a suicide. I am trying to do the right thing here.

What would happen if you called 911 where she lived and had professionals check on her?

So... switch it up.

She talks suicide to you.  Police and EMS are at her door.  How many more times do you think she talks suicide to you?

That way... .if your r/s goes forward... .there is no more talk of suicide.

If the relationship does not go forward... .there is no more talk of suicide.

Asked another way... .have the methods you have been using ended the talk of suicide?

Have they encouraged it?

FF

Sunfl0wer,


What I was trying to do was establish whether she was still feeling suicidal and urge her to seek help. I don't think I was going about it the right way, so thank you for your input.


I have been suggesting to her to speak to professionals. She told me that she sees her crisis team intermittently. She has given me no other details apart from that some days ago. I don't want to discourage her from talking to me, but if she mentions suicide again, I will suggest again that she seeks help.


I don't know about this and don't feel qualified to comment. The only thing I know is what she has told me: the last time she tried to kill herself she said it was because she felt alone and then blamed me. This was during our break up. People on here have suggested not to take her apportioning blame to heart, what I am going to do is be there for her to talk to. That is all I can do.


I don't know if she is in immediate danger. She has been telling me that she is suicidal for months. Given that she has already tried it this year, I am taking it seriously, hence being on here.

I have taken on board your message about getting health professionals and emergency services on board. However, I am not a physical presence in her life and unless she tells me that she is going to do it this very moment, I will have to hope that her husband will be watching her closely enough to call them in.


I hear you and agree with you.


It has gone beyond my feelings at the moment. I am just making sure she is safe. I will listen to her and suggest she go to a health professional. She has already distanced herself from me (many times during our r/s) and I am used to it.

In terms of coping skills you are all helping me enormously. If you see any red flags please shout. I am acting on the advice I receive here.

And we are trying to show you the right thing... .or help you "discern" the right thing.

It is obvious your heart is in the right place.

It's not so obvious your methods are.

Changing your heart is hard.

Charnging your methods are less so... .although anything done from a "tough love" point of view... .is ... ."tough" for both sides, because it is usually different.

FF

The thought of calling emergency services has occurred to me and if I thought she was in immediate danger I would do it.

She hasn't talked about suicide yesterday or today. I don't get the impression talking to me has encouraged it, I feel she needed somebody to listen - that was a few days ago. I asked her how she felt today and she said 'much the same' but she didn't mention the word suicide.  I don't know if the suicide talk has ended. The only 'method' I am using is listening to her and validating her feelings.

So... .help me understand not letting him handle it all.  

If there is trust enough in him to call EMS when needed... .why not trust him enough to "be there" for her when she needs to talk... .text... .whatever.

It seems that you intuitively get that a person "on site"... .or physically there... .is in a much better position to "help'.

Yet... .you are still playing a virtual role.

There seems to be a disconnect.  Either trust him to handle it and let him handle it.

Or... .if you are really needed... .and your judgement is correct that she needs help... .send help to her.

The middle ground seems dangerous... .

FF

I don't really think I have any methods are than listening and trying to validate her feelings. However, for the past 2 days we have hardly spoken other than her thanking me for my concern and then today asking me what I'm up to. I don't find it difficult to act on the advice given me. I am not considering anything other than offering her support at the moment.

All I've done is responded to what she has told me. A few days ago when I asked about her husband she told me  'his health is suffering and he is losing his mind.'

As I said before, she has told me many times over the years that she has been suicidal. The fact is that the only time she has done it was when we were not in contact.

I don't know what to deduce from that other than having me in her life gives her an outlet or respite. I don't think she is going to kill herself right at this moment or I would be on the phone like a shot.

RM,

This might help connect the dots here.

In my opinion, I think you are trying to do the right thing. I also thing you are responding to her in a far less risky way then before. I respect you for taking direction, dialing back the emotion, the push pull, and at times manipulative behavior. You've come a long way.

I'd ask everyone reading to remember that the police and EMS don't cure suicide... .they help prevent collateral damage and they can sometimes block an immediate event in escalation. Police don't improve mental trauma on any level. Guns don't improve depression.

So who does cure depression and suicide ideation. Generally, its families. Healthcare professionals can help with inpatient services (very effective) and therapy and stabilizing drugs. Short of inpatient treatment, families are the most curative.

I think this is most likely where members are struggling with your role. If you look at the general suggestions from suicide studies (see quote box), you are not in the best position to help her. This has little to do with your intent right now, and a lot to do with the history and the type of relationship (long distance, affair).

1. Several of the important elements listed below, you can't help her with. You occupying the role of primary caregiver, blocks someone in a better position from taking this role. If she wasn't in an affair, she would have developed a relationship with someone else - a girlfriend, her husband, etc. 2. You are a risky element in her life. You can easily flip into a mode where you trigger, obsesses, accuse, manipulate, etc. and your empathy (ability to read her) goes to zero. You may question my ability to assess this. You can't question hers - she said you contributed to her suicide attempt. You responded in anger to that and had to be talked down several times.

This is really hard stuff, I know. You are strong man for opening yourself to such personal critique.

So, my thoughts are, (1) if you are her best resource right now (and you may be), don't dump her on her ear, (2) explore with her who she is able to talk to and contact that person and ask for help (if worse come to worse, contact the suicide organization she works for and talk to the executive director, (3) slowly but firmly wean her off of you and onto someone who can fully support her, and (4) if you feel any triggering or obsession or thoughts that she is cheating on you or playing games with you, step away and come here and talk to us.

You are holding a ticking time bomb. She has attempted suicide and been hospitalized for it. That puts her in the highest of risk categories. She has a high likelihood of killing herself at some point. Find the right person and easing her over to someone who can better help her is the best thing you can do.

I know I sound very serious. I experienced a completed suicide. I have been involved with others that have also. It looks like this. We can also say someone is being manipulative, and it is true that it looks the same way. Everyone who experienced a suicide will tell you this.

RF--if you are re-centering on your marriage and ready and willing to detach from your r/s with your ex affair partner, she is going to have to learn to get on with life without you being an emotional crutch.  Right now this suicide crisis, which could go on for a long long time, especially if she has an incentive to frame her feelings that way to keep you responding, is obscuring that you both have to walk the hard walk of restructuring your lives to not have one another playing this quasi-partner role.

Her telling you she tried to kill herself "because" of your absence isn't something to be taken at face value, in my view.  We can't know with 1000% certainty.  But other behaviors and choices on her part don't really match up with that.  More likely she prefers, all other things being equal, to have access to you.  You are an immediately effective way for her to get a charge of "I am valued and wanted."  For a while you took that away and she understandably wanted it back.  Beyond that, I would not over-attribute her psychological state to your actions.  There may be deeper, depressing realizations that are illuminated for her when you step away, such as "there will never be a coping strategy sufficient to fill the void I feel."  She's made comments to that effect.  And that is a truth you neither caused nor can change.  For a while she may have hoped an affair with you would fill the void.  That hope is no longer available and she is being responsible enough, it sounds like, not to continue to look for such patches.

The truth is -- there may be no solution for her feelings.  Her biochemical makeup, life circumstances, toolkit of options she knows how to or will try, may never add up to make her a happy person.  She is not necessarily wrong about this.  I can guarantee no doctor or crisis clinic is going to have an immediate solution to her deeper feelings of despair.  They may keep her willing to stay on the road to look for deeper solutions, but they can't solve the deeper distress.

I think Sunflower & FF are saying important things about whether the role you are playing is actually useful to her or really fits in a life of commitment to your life and detachment from your affair partner.

When I said "there is a narcissism in seeing ourselves as the answer" I didn't mean you have NPD or are a narcissist. I think that's a distraction to this conversation.  I used the word just to flag this as "something that actually is doing something for us disguised as doing something for the other person."  It's worth thinking about.  Narcissistic altruism is a concept I have found worth exploring.

Anyway -- it seems to me you are attached to the concept that you play an important role here.  If you do, it seems to me that is almost certainly unhealthy.  You are a crutch right now.

I am not recommending a dramatic exit.  But maybe something along the lines of "I've been thinking about our recent communication.  I care about you.   However, I'm not a professional qualified to address feelings of wanting to kill yourself, and don't want to suggest that is a good dynamic between us.  I am hoping matters improve for you; I know it's tough to step from one set of coping mechanisms into the unknown; I hope things become more meaningful and enjoyable.  I respect the limits you've needed to place on our relationship, but given them, it isn't really appropriate or healing for either of us for me to be a daily sounding board.  I hope you can understand.  I'm not trying to cut off communication but I think it's important that this not creep back to feeling like something it's not."

Posted before reading Skip's, which is a little less cavalier about the suicide dynamics than I am.  One reason I am may be that I enduring years of stated suicidal feelings from my exH.  They could be translated as "I really feel terrible about my life," but he never had the skills to re-frame in that way, and he used the suicide short hand to sort of gain purchase on my time and attention.

On the other hand I've had a suicidal kid who was the opposite of manipulative and whose feelings need to be taken at face value and validated.

None of us on this board can see clearly enough to know which column this dynamic falls into.  But what I think we are nearly all agreeing about is that you are not in a good position to play a helpful role, and that there may be reasons why that is hard for you to see.

I agree with Skip that you are due much credit for taking this feedback on board.

Skip,


Thanks. I feel that too.


I feel this way too. There is only so much that can be done via text.


Noted. She has been talking to me less over the last 2 days after I suggested she talk to a health professional. I have made it clear that I am here for her if she needs me.

I just want to flag up that when she accused me of driving her to suicide was during a period of NC. I was trying to detach from her. I responded in anger because I didn't understand how I contributed to her suicide when we weren't in contact. However, I now understand that the times she tried to initiate contact with her I was angry with her for breaking NC.


It is hard. My only interest is to make sure I am not making things worse for her. I have done enough of that in the past as you indicated above.


No chance of that.


I have thought about contacting the director of her area. It is tricky because she was that person up until recently. I also think if I ever did that she would be furious. However, if she does persist in the suicide talk and I think she is going to do it, I will consider this option.


I agree regarding suicide talk. I think she will always want me as a friend.


I'm sure you have noticed that I have been trying to do just that. I still have the feelings but I have been voicing them on here rather than to her.


How do I find the right person? I read the article you posted and found it very useful. I am trying to wean her off me regarding the suicide but I do have to say again that I think she considers me as a friend and since she doesn't have many of those, she will not want to lose that between us.

Be careful to not split hairs... .


Do you think you can tell from a text? Do you think a suicide hotline person can sweep in during a crisis and become her confidant and reason to want to live?

The typical people to play this role are parents, sisters, spouses, best friends.


Do you think that, long term, your presence in her life is a good thing? Do you think her presence in your life is a good thing?

You are both living the ultimate drama triangle - every day that you connect you do so to avoid fixing your relationships with your spouses. The person she should be turning to for comfort right now is her husband. Rather than him getting a full picture, some of its is shuttled over to you.

You are starting to wean yourselves from each other. That is good. Don't lose site that you are not really helping each other cope with life - your escaping it.

P&C,


These thoughts have all been in my head for a very long time now. However, since she told me that she tried to take her own life then I have to take it all at face value.

I don't feel that re-centring on my marriage means dumping her as a friend right at this moment. I have gone a long way to detaching from her and we are never going to sleep together again, that much I know. The rest will happen in time.

It is very interesting what you say about me no longer filling the void because recently she has told me that music and helping others have also ceased to work for her.


I think she feels there is no solution hence the suicide talk. She has been under many doctors over the years and is now in AA. She works for a suicide prevention charity and has had help from all sorts of people. The fact is her feelings of emptiness and anguish persist. Only know do I feel I am getting a full insight into her condition. She is like a wounded butterfly who will never recover. All I am really offering her is temporary pain relief - but if it goes anyway to helping then I want to continue.


Yes, I am considering all of this. I am going to wean her off me over a period of time. It is already happening I think.


I know you didn't mean that. I am saying that I have narcissistic traits. Believe me I am in the profession for it. That said, I don't believe i would be diagnosed with NPD. I guess what i am getting from this is remaining in contact with her and feeling like I am helping her. At least that is better than berating her for not wanting to see me and generally adding to her stress by getting upset with her.


I am not attached to that concept at all. Frankly, I would rather be sleeping with her than being her agony aunt but I care about her as a person and I am doing my best to offer support. I don't really feel much kudos from being altruistic with her. For me in this moment it is about recognising she has BPD and not doing her further harm.


Do you think that this is a good time to say that to her?


I actually thought this is what she was doing up until she told me that she tried to kill herself. I must recognise that she isn't bluffing. Unless I believe she is lying to me about that (which I don't).


Sorry to hear that. I do think she is a real suicide case. I wouldn't be on here if I didn't.


I think if I take my own stuff out of the equation and don't try to act as her counsellor then what I am offering her beyond that is friendship. I believe that is important to her. This is no longer about me. I am thinking about what she needs. I agree that she doesn't need me getting in the way of professional help and I am not going to indulge that but I am not going to turn my back on her at this time.


This is Red Flag city. I would be a fool not to. Thank you for your input.

Skip,


No, I don't think I can tell from a text.

You said not to dump her at present. What do you think I should do then?


Yes, I take all of this on board. Following previous discussions I am taking the intensity out of it all while slowly and gently letting her go. We are not going to meet again or sleep together.

She has always told me that her husband doesn't care about her and is autistic and emotionally closed off. She said he never talks to her. Yes, that is most likely only partly true but I guess we are here because of those feelings of neglect she has regarding her husband.

The big question I have about everything she tells me - assuming she has BPD - is how much do I believe?

Like we discussed a while back, transition out. Set some milestones for yourself and slowly wind this down. Be a good buddy in the process. She'll let it taper off. You've had 14 years together, its normalized dysfunction (we talked about this) and its not serving you well.

Imagine something serious happens to you and you are in extended hospitalization. Your wife will be by your side sacrificing herself for you. Are you going to sneak calls to your lover then. Are you going to look across the room with your wife sitting in a chair and think, "I don't really know her"?

Yes, winding it down is exactly what I think I am doing. I remember every discussion we have.

Funnily enough I have actually spoken to the ex about this situation on many occasions and she said 'what would I do if you ever had a heart attack'  - so this question has been on both of our minds.

I know my wife is the person I can trust. I know she is the person in my life. I know she is the person who is real. I also know the ex is little more than a fantasy which is fading - but it hurts like hell to let it go... .

I agree as well.

Be kind to yourself... .you are in the midst of hard work.

FF

This is real... .can you focus on this.?... and take some time.  Time for your feelings.

FF

Thanks. I am feeling a damn sight better than being in the midst of an obsession. It is lifting and while I am not getting gratification I do at least have emotional sobriety.


I have gone through the real terrible pain. I cried myself to sleep for months on end. I prayed. I went to Amsterdam. I came on here. I sat with the pain. I play piano and I spend time with my wife now. I'd say I have focused alot on surviving the pain.

Does she know this about you?

You cannot redo the past. You can, rise for the future.

I believe she trusts me which is why I am not going to sleep with my ex again.

I intend to be a better person and husband.

Just wanted to flag up a bit of our conversation tonight:


We went on to have a good conversation about our days and she signed off in a friendly way. No talk of suicide. No leaving the conversation. It seems to me that flat is an improvement on suicidal. Feedback welcome. (I know I suck at validation and so suggestions on how to carry on the conversation to her specifications would be welcome).

 
So... .look at your post?  Do you "see" a listener?

I don't

I see someone "interviewing" someone else about their feelings... .I see someone "probing".

It's not obvious when this took place, perhaps if was before your decision to be "just a listener".

Not trying to beat you up here... .but it is obvious that what "we see" and "you see" as your role in this... .are quite different.

FF

I need examples of what I could have said to sound like a listener.

This is as close to listening as I can get at the moment. What am I missing here?

I could quite easily say: 'Wow that must be difficult for you, finding everything a chore' but that isn't how we speak to each other. I am worried she will think I'm being disingenuous.

I see my role as a listener. This is clearly causing confusion because I'm not executing it correctly.

FYI: When I am learning a new skill I find it easier to learn by examples of how to do it, rather than someone just saying 'no that's wrong.' I don't know what I'm doing wrong and it's frustrating me.

Please also bear in mind that the advice I have had on here is that I am not qualified to talk about suicide. If I start delving into her feelings again it may get around to that. I am nervous about getting into it with her now. At least with a cordial conversation I did no harm!

 
Her: Thought any more about going to the states?
Me: Depends on many factors.
Her: What are the factors?
Me: Multifarious. A big one being financial. How are you doing?  (see the shift here... why not end it at financial)
Her: Flat is the best way to describe my frame of mind
Me: Flat as in not feeling much?  (interview question)
Her: Not feeling anything
Me: How does that affect your life practically? (interview question)
Her: Other than to make it a chore?
Me: Yes. Can you function enough to work for example? (interview question)
Her: I get everything done that needs to be done.
Me: I see. What have you been doing today? (interview question)

Basically... .I see you reaching out and pulling information toward you... .pulling her toward you.

Said another way... .looking for things you can listen to.

If she wants you to listen... .she will say it... .

FF style... stay big picture.  Trust that she will tell you something... if she wants you to know it.  You don't need to go looking... .asking... rummaging around.

Can you see that?  Interviewing... vice listening?

And to be clear... .I'm only addressing the "listening" thing.   There is a bigger question of is there a role for you at all here... .even "just listening"

FF,


I don't really understand it at all. I thought validation was the following:


What you describe as probing and interview questions are really just shorthand for what I have written above. To me validation is about reflecting back thoughts and feelings. Not just being a passive listener. I'm not saying that I guide the conversation but I feedback and summarise what has been said to me thus validating her emotional experience. As I said, my reflections back to her were a kind of less effusive version of what I have written.

I'm going to push pause again and reflect on things for a couple days.  Many times threads get down in the weeds.  Many times I influence them to go into the weeds... .and a "big picture" is missed...

Reasoning:  We were talking about listening... it shifted to validation.  Rather than get mixed up in that I would hope to point you back to bigger picture stuff in the thread.
 
Said another way... .you are not facing a "tactical problem" (listen versus validate)... .you are (or should be) focused on the strategic.  (who is my wife to me, who is my ex to me, what role do I play in both their lives, is my role healthy... .)

Can you focus back on the big picture stuff? 

FF

Hi RF,

I am going to pick up the piece about validation.     

I would give the conversation you posted tonight a thumbs up. |iiii   I can see the improvement since you started working and thinking about validation, which was what 2 weeks ago?   

I am still going to use this definition of validation, which we talked about before:

Emotional validation is the process of learning about, understanding and expressing acceptance of another person’s emotional experience. Emotional validation is distinguished from emotional invalidation, in which another person’s emotional experiences are rejected, ignored, or judged.

You acknowledged her feelings and didn't reject them or debate them.   Didn't try to fix them or change them.  You accepted what she told you, asked a pertinent question and moved on other topics.

I think this is one step to continue on the path that was discussed upstream in this thread.


'ducks

FF,


You asked me if the conversation I posted felt like I was listening... .you stated that you didn't think I was listening. Listening is a very important part of validation. I am dealing with a woman who was/is suicidal and so when we do talk I want to be as validating as I can - in my book this encompasses listening. Sorry for any confusion.


The role I play in the life of my ex is very clear - I am there as an ear which includes validating her feelings. I am not there as a lover any longer but as a friend who she can turn to. Skip has suggested that I be a 'buddy' to her for now and don't turn my back on her. I am following his advice.

The bigger picture for me is to make sure that I do no harm to this woman and if she does turn to me I be a friend to her and listen and validate her emotions. Please note that there hasn't been any suicide talk for 3 days. Hopefully that means she is talking to somebody else. I will continue to encourage her to do so - as has been suggested to me on here.

Hi ducks,


I am relieved to hear you say this because I too thought there was an improvement. I am trying to validate any feelings she has and also be 'radically genuine' and talk the way she is used to me talking to her. I think the fact that she didn't bolt from the conversation suggests she feels comfortable talking. There hasn't been any suicide talk for 3 days and I was heartened that last night she said she felt 'flat' as opposed to suicidal. In any case I have encouraged her to speak to a health professional and close family about it but if she does talk to me then I want to 'do no harm.'

 
I am glad that reads as validation because I wasn't sure if I had said enough. I was trying hard first and foremost not to be invalidating.


This is precisely the advice which I am following.

Hi all,

I just want to say some things to everyone who has posted on here and who is reading this:

1. First and foremost I am acutely aware that my ex is or has been suicidal and that I should not get in the way of her finding the help she requires. I have encouraged her (and will continue to do so) to seek professional help and to confide in her family and friends.

2. I am focusing on listening AND validation because if she does decide to talk to me then I want to 'do no harm.'

3. I am not talking about suicide unless she does. It has been 3 days since she has mentioned suicide. The last couple of conversations have been about our daily lives.

4. My role in my ex's life is clear: I am there as a friend at the moment. I have taken a clear decision to focus on my marriage and to transition my r/s with my ex into something more akin to friendship.

5. I do not feel that she is relying on me solely for help. She has doctors who monitor her (albeit intermittently) from when she made her previous suicide attempt a few months back, she has an AA sponsor, she has colleagues from the suicide prevention charity for whom she volunteers and she has her family. If she feels she needs to turn to me then I will be there for her.

6. I do not think that she considers me her 'primary caregiver.' I certainly do not consider myself as her primary caregiver either. She has many other people as well as me to whom she can turn.

7. I am not getting any kudos or narcissistic altruism from being in contact with her. I have been very concerned for her for a number of months. We were embroiled in an intense r/s for a number of years and the nature of that is now changing. My only concern is that she receives the help from the right people and I be there as a friend if that is what she needs.

8. I asked for help from you all and I received that help. For that I am truly grateful. I will continue to listen to what people tell me around this very serious issue. Thank you.

RF