BPDFamily.com

This is my first time here, so please bear with me. As I'm sure is the case with most everyone's stories, all of the details and nuances would take far, FAR too long to go through, at this point.

My wife and I have been married for eight years and separated for the past seven months.  After years of black/white arguments, irrational demands, explosions, cold rage, withheld affection, and expressions of hatred for me... .feeling caged up, controlled, manipulated, and dehumanized... .I cheated on her. (However, I believe have no excuses or justification for my actions) She found out and immediately wanted me out of the house and to divorce. She's not wanted to consider reconciliation. The time since then has been a drawn out black/white battle over whether or not we relocate near her parents (several states away).  She retained an attorney who specializes in collaborative divorce, and we went through several mediation sessions, but remained at an impasse on relocation the entire time.  It was clear to me that she was not telling her attorney that she had no intention of negotiating, but instead believes that because she is "the victim" she should have whatever she wants.  Finally, she dropped her attorney and picked up someone new and has told me she's going to file, since I am "forcing her to fight about it." (Any time she's mistreated me or acted poorly it's my fault).

This relocation issue is nothing new, however. It was a constant battle throughout our marriage as well. Of all the stalemate battles, that was the defining one. After a few months of marriage she began saying she thought we needed to move by her parents, citing reasons such as "family are the only people you can trust" and "family are the most important", etc.  However, she grew up in this area, and all of her friends and extended family are here. Her parents were a wedge between us from the beginning... .of dating. They had some kind of control over her, in that whatever idea they had instantly became her idea, which was then wrapped in black/white thinking and became an imperative for our marriage.  So, what kind of house we should have, where we should live, our jobs, how much money we keep in savings, where we shop, how we did just about everything... .was dictated by her parents.  She loved them, idolized them, despite their harsh treatment of her. She tiptoed around them, and the slightest disagreement with them would invoke their criticisms and withholding of love.  She and her mom are so close that they'd sleep in bed together when she went to visit them for a week or more (usually wanting to travel without me), and even at our house at times asking me to sleep in the guest room so they could snuggle all night. In counseling, she told our therapist she always felt "in the middle" and being forced to "pick sides" or "pick my husband over my parents".  Our therapist told her she's never in the middle and is always with her husband.  Without getting into more detail, I didn't feel comfortable with their destructive influence on our marriage and so I was never OK with relocating by them.  She insisted for five years that we move by them, and during that time our life was at a standstill. Because she refused to commit to staying in our city, I couldn't search for better career options, we couldn't buy a house, we couldn't starting a family, I couldn't pursue my Ph.D., she couldn't pursue better career options, we couldn't even become members at our church. Abruptly, in year three, after her mom began asking about grandkids, she demanded we have kids. Even after our first was born, she continued to demand we move and openly talked about leaving me (as she had since year two).  Finally, with our second on the way two years later, she decided we could stay here for the time being. We purchased a house, and the battle largely subsided.

Now, however, my wife is demanding that she relocate near them (actually taking their house, and they've bought a second house for themselves) with the kids. She wants me to go as well.  My resistance to the idea isn't about me finding a new job or losing my friends, church, and support network here (though that DOES matter to me), but primarily I do not want my kids (a pre-K and toddler) growing up enmeshed in her family.  She wants them to be the primary caretakers when she's preoccupied, so our kids have someone who will "pour into them" versus daycare or a babysitter who "won't care about them."  

The mediation sessions and all of our conversations in between have been completely useless. The issue, which was already black/white to her, is completely inflexible now.  She's been using this time to try to persuade me to "trust her", though has made no efforts to accommodate or even acknowledge any of my concerns about relocating. Finally, she's had enough and is prepared to file. She apparently understands from her attorney that this process will take longer than mediation, cost far more, be far more stressful, and have a lower likelihood of success.  To all that she simply shrugs.  

I fear for my children in this.  For all of our differences, we almost always kept things pleasant around our children.  They've had an exceptionally happy home, and we've always both been highly involved and engaged with them.  I've been living out of the house since February, and it's been very hard on the kids. They don't know a divorce is coming, yet, either.  I fear what a high conflict divorce may do to them, as well as to us.  

There is absolutely no way to reason with my wife. On any issue that's significant to her, her mind is instantly and irrevocably made up.  "There's nothing to talk about," is a favorite refrain of hers.  There never was before, and there certainly isn't now.  Anyone who's opinion she doesn't like, she removes from her life (such as her lawyer, who was encouraging her to find a negotiated solution), so there's no one to bring messages to her. Not that it would matter, she'd ignore them anyway.  

I really don't know what's coming.  I don't know how bad it will get.  I expect her to stop at nothing to get to her parents. Despite her always telling me and everyone we know that I am a GREAT dad (her emphasis), and that she's "not trying to isolate [me] from the kids; they need their dad", I will not be surprised at all if she turns to false allegations in order to win this battle, even if it results in my time with them being restricted.  

I don't know what help I need, or what to ask about.  My therapist introduced me to the BPD world after meeting my wife and connecting her with my descriptions of our marriage prior to the separation. I've read "Stop Walking On Eggshells" (every page is our marriage, it seems) and I'm working my way through "Splitting".  

I just don't want our kids to suffer (I don't want my wife to, either, and I want to be reconciled to her). Today, our oldest had preschool orientation. We went together as a family.  He was so happy. Then, leaving the school he asked if I could come home tonight (I put them to bed two nights a week and see them all day Saturday and every other Sunday... .no overnights), and I told him I couldn't (it's an off night). He got angry, and I had to talk him through it.  And my heart just breaks.  

EDIT:  I apologize if there are gaps or it feels like an incomplete story.  I'll post an "intro" or "background" post soon and link it here.  I'm too exhausted now to type up our full story, however. 

Many of us here have gone through what you've described, dealing with the entitled ultimatums and demands.  You will get through it, given enough time, a good problem-solving lawyer and solid strategies.

If it wasn't infidelity then it (the cause of the marriage's implosion) would have been something else.  The marriage was already on the rocks and hugely dysfunctional.  Most states don't care much about that sort of adult behaviors.  Courts are not the marital policemen.  She is incensed but most states are No Fault and ignore that.

I am concerned that you don't have any overnights.  Why?  Is it just her demand and insistence?  If you made your case to the courts then overnights would be expected, well unless they had concerns about the safety of the children... .child abuse, child neglect or child endangerment.

More and more states are favoring equal time but often that's impractical or the courts still default to the patterns of the outdated Tender Years Doctrine that mothers are the best parents.  In my case the court went with the 'safe' route, asked for the work schedules and since I worked and my spouse didn't, she automatically got majority time in the temp order.  (This despite her having a case pending against her for Threat of DV.)

You probably have an uphill struggle to get substantial parenting time.  One of your first steps in a divorce is to get the court to set up a better schedule that includes overnights.  It needs to be at least alternate weekends and preferably 1 or 20 in between.  However, courts often make the in between visits evenings, but you should still try to get them as overnights.

Another issue is the length of the weekend visits.  Mu court was generous and gave me 72 hours on alternate weekends, from Friday 6 pm to Monday 6 pm.  Once my son was in school it was changed to Friday after school to Monday morning at school.  That reduced the in-person exchanges and conflicts.

I presume your residence is large enough for the children to stay overnights with you?  You don't want her have basis to claim your residence is literally a hole in the wall.  Also, any claim that "they're too young to be away from her" won't wash with the court.  Even breastfeeding is a poor claim.  She can do like millions of other mothers and express her milk into bottles and pass them along at exchanges.

Seek changes at resolve the problems.  Her expertise is making emotional claims and obstructing.  You need to demonstrate that you are seeking solutions.  Be careful that you don't mix too much appeasing in your solutions.  While you don't want to trigger her too much, you also need to focus on real solutions, strong boundaries that she should learn can't be trampled upon without consequences.

You'd have to speak with your proactive and experienced lawyer about how best to keep your kids near you in the current area.  Sometimes there are reasons to move but it sounds like she may have a hard time forcing you to comply.  Meanwhile don't 'gift' her any opportunities.

Collaborative divorce seldom succeeds with our type of cases.  The other spouse is simply too entitled and controlling to sincerely negotiate.  Settlements aren't unheard of, but they're almost always much later near the end of a divorce and usually just before a major hearing or trial.  Do you have a good attorney now?  Someone with both experience at trial and proactive with solid strategies?

In most cases a court ruling or order from a judge will be "less unfair" than the ex's demands.  Be aware, though, that judges prefer to have the parents settle to some extent and they don't mind letting the case drag on in hopes the parents will agree to equitable terms.  We need our lawyers to be aware that a "meeting of the minds" is highly unlikely and certainly not soon.

Hi Reality Mgmt and Welcome to bpdfamily. 

First off, well done on maintaining amicable relations with your wife around the children. That is very difficult to do considering the amount of stress you and your wife are both under.


I assume that your wife is a stay at home mom from this statement. Sounds very similar to my xw regarding wanting caretakers when she is preoccupied. Yet, you likely will here how from your wife how she is the primary caretaker. In actuality, I'd make a guess that you have been pretty involved in your kids' daily routines in addition to working full time. Is that close to your scenario?

I am in process of a collaborative divorce with my xw, simply in an effort to try to keep the high conflict divorce from clobbering my S11 and S6. But, as ForeverDad notes about collaboration, I have a large degree of skepticism that I will succeed without hiring a new attorney and going to court.

Do you currently have your own collaborative attorney? If not, you need to start interviewing attorneys and select one. You can seek one who works within the collaborative process if you want, but you should make certain your attorney has experience (including trial experience) in high conflict divorce cases with a personality disordered spouse. If you have been using your wife's attorney to represent both of you, or you have opted to not retain an attorney, that is a mistake.

As ForeverDad notes, you have moved out and already established a residential schedule precedent that is definitely not in your favor. Have you started a calendar or been documenting all of the times/activities you have spent with your two children? I am guessing that your wife may ask you occasionally to help with the boys when she is "preoccupied"? If you haven't already, start making records of all of that. I use Google calendar to track all of the times I have my sons as well as all of the little favors my xw asks me to take the kids. This can help you fight that uphill battle of restoring your time to a more equitable split.

Residential time is probably a heavily weighted factor in your state's laws regarding relocation of children in a divorce dispute. With no current overnights, I am worried that you won't be in a strong position to stop your wife. Again, talk to an attorney. Get to know what your state requires for relocation - usually there are multiple factors like custody time, is relocating parent moving to secure better work, is relocating parent moving to/away from area where there is family, is other parent able to maintain access with relocation, etc. Based on those requirements, you need to work with the attorney to develop your best strategy for appealing the request when it is made.

The good news: once one of you has filed for separation/divorce with the courts, both parties will be under a restraining order to remove the children from the area until the divorce is finalized. So if she is filing, that will actually buy you some time to develop a response and also to put your records together of time you have spent with the kids. Make sure to include any doctor's appointments an things that show you are more than just weekend warrior with your kids.

Keep posting questions. We are here to support you.

To ForeverDad:

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You're right, the infidelity was just the particular fruit of the inner rot. It would've been something else, eventually. Even her therapist asked her, "well what did you expect?"

Regarding overnights, there's no reason a court wouldn't give them, and my attorney has suggested a few times I file so I can have that. There are a couple of reasons why I haven't, though. First, I've held out hope (perhaps foolishly) that we might reconcile. As a result, I haven't established a residency elsewhere (I stay with two families from our church), as that would, in her mind, equate to wanting to divorce. Second, she's FIRMLY opposed to overnights, saying the kids are too young and can't be "shuffled around." And since I've been hoping to reconcile, haven't wanted to cause that explosion from her yet.

Legally, nothing has changed for us. We have no separation agreement, we share the same bank accounts we always have, etc.

The informal plan we have in place is that I come to the house Mondays and Wednesdays at 5:00, make dinner for them, and put them to bed by 8:00.  Saturdays I am at the house from before they wake up until after they're in bed (my wife is a nurse, working 12's, Saturday only), and because our church involvement is important to both of us, I was able to eventually get her to agree to alternate Sundays. I pick them up at the house, go to church, and then spend the day "out" with them, returning them for dinner.  This requires having them nap in the car, but in recent weeks she's flexed occasionally and lets me nap them at the house while she goes out.

The plan she's proposed for our divorce is largely the same, with the addition of either (A) overnight Friday and returning the kids Saturday for dinner each week or (B) Friday and Saturday night every other week.  Given how involved I've been as a dad, and how much *my kids* want to see me, this little time seems ludicrously inadequate, but my fear is that a court-mandated schedule won't be much better. However, I hope there may be a case to be made for more balanced time based on mental health concerns/history and her documented (text, email, counselors) difficulty in disciplining the kids (spanked with a spoon and demanded I do it as well. I never complied). 

What she's repeatedly said through this process, to me and to others, is that because she's "the victim" or because my "bad choices led to this" , she should not have to "lose anything" (such as time with the kids) or compromise. Unfortunately, our (now former) church leadership reinforced this idea. The child psychologist she had us meet with to discuss our 4 year old son's anger (which showed up during this process) reminded her that these choices are about what's good for our kids, not what is "fair" between the two of us. After that meeting, my wife said she would not meet with any more counselors or psychologists and we could not include them in the process, because she is "a highly capable mother who doesn't need any 'professionals' telling her how to be a parent."

During the marriage, the entitlement took the form of "a husband should do whatever it takes to make his wife happy... .happy wife, happy life."  Practically, this played out as she should be free to do whatever she wants, at any time, without needing to discuss it with me.  Travel when she wants, moving by her parents, funding her hobbies and interests (but none of mine), choosing my clothes, how I spend my time, etc. Disagreements or resistance were seen as reasons for questioning if I loved her. 

You're certainly on the mark regarding emotional claims and obstructing. She's told falsehoods (I don't say "lie", because I'm fairly sure she believes everything she says... .which helps sell it) with everyone in her sphere, including her attorney, and will take any opportunity to launch into a very persuasive emotional monologue about how horrible I am, though at the beginning of all this she openly discussed with me and others how shocked she was by the affairs since she thought "we were doing the best we ever have," "I was finally in love with you," and "you are a GREAT dad." 

It's honestly feels like she has super powers of cultivating an alternate reality while simultaneously being impervious to truth and rationality. When a conversation comes to a point where truth is revealed and/or she can't control the dialogue, she simply says "Not productive!" and walks out of the room.  To others she claims I "twist her words" though she's never given an example of how I do that, and even says counselors do that, too, so she refuses to have them as objective third parties. She then tells people *I* refused to meet with *her*.  Everything is about her being in absolute control. When she's not able to have control, she tells everyone that *I* am controlling. 

My attorney assures me we'll get through this, that I'll likely fair better than agreeing anything she's proposed, and that relocation is unlikely to be the outcome, though it *IS* possible.

I want to join t&s in saying you've done a remarkable job keeping things amicable under the circumstances. That is not an easy feat! And I admire you for sticking to your conviction that the kids will fare better with some distance between their grandparents, who sound very narcissistic. Nothing like having a team of people working against you, making things doubly hard for the kids.

Our high-conflict divorces seem to do best when we shine light on the patterns of behavior. That typically means bringing in third-party professionals, like counselors and psychologists to evaluate. Has your lawyer recommended a custody evaluation as part of your legal strategy?

You mentioned that your son has a lot of anger. Did the child psychologist suggest any parenting strategies or relationship skills to help him? People with BPD tend to have a bottomless need for validation, and will be hellbent on extracting validation from their own kids, essentially reversing the natural parent-child role. As the healthy parent, you can make a huge difference validating how they feel, since they aren't likely to receive this from mom.

I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstroms has excellent insight and tips on how to do this, as does Bill Eddy's other book, Don't Alienate the Kids.

Chances are, there is already some alienation going on, as this tends to go hand-in-hand with BPD parenting, becoming even more noticeable with separation and divorce.

Whatever happens, we're here to walk with you.

You're not alone.

LnL

Courts really like counseling.  She will not look good if she continues refusing to meet with counselors or blocks counseling for the kids.  (Of course, don't tell her that or she will change things just enough to make her look okay and yet still obstruct you.)


Couldn't be farther from the truth.  That's 100% her perception and entitlement.  Your compliance thus far allows her to remain in full control, with her tossing you some little crumbs to prolong her control.  Actually, the younger children, especially under 3 years of age, often get more frequent visits with the non-primary parent, though perhaps a little shorter.  That's to help the children bond better with the parent who sees them less.

The children are not too young for counseling, at least the one in preschool.  When I separated my son was months away from being 4 years old.  She enrolled him in local child counseling and managed to hide it from me for over 3 months.  That's when my lawyer told me courts like counseling.  Unfortunately she used it to get some professionals on her side even though they had never met me.  It took over a year to get that straightened out.

Did we tell you that when a marriage is improving and has a real future then it's right to share information to make it stronger.  BUT if it is dysfunctional or unhealthy then you have a right to confidentiality and privacy, especially because some information, if divulged to her, would be sabotaging to you.  So any strategies given by your lawyer, your counselor or here in peer support are meant for you, don't let her learn of them, turn them around and sabotage your good efforts to do the right thing for yourself and your children.

Thank you all for your time and attention in these replies. I've been reading them but haven't had time to respond, between the evenings with the kids and trying to find a rental.

There's so much in our situation that it's hard to know what to discuss first.

I *do* feel pity for her, though, because I believe to some degree she isn't aware of how she is and I think at her core she's always been hurting. She was sexually abused as a kid (her story is that it happened one time) and to my knowledge she's never dealt with it. She told our therapist there was "nothing to deal with", though our therapist, and two others she's met, said it was readily apparent when they met her that there had been abuse in her past.

Nevertheless, I know I need to focus right now on protecting our children's best interests.

I want to add Kudos for focusing on calmness and putting your kids needs first.

I have personal experience in the "moving close to her family" thing.  It was hugely triggering to her (my wife) and changed a bunch of family dynamics.  I no longer have any relationship with her FOO.  Literally haven't spoken to any of them in... .gosh... .over a year now... .maybe 1.5 years.

The FOO is not the only issue in the move... .there are always goods and bads.

Based on my experience and what I've gathered from skimming your posts here... .I would let hell freeze over before I would move any closer to her family than you are now.

Hopefully I made myself clear.

It's all about the influences and examples that your kids are presented with.  I hope you are under no illusions where she learned to act the way she does now.  Her FOO.

If you continue to gain skills and continue to put your kids first (good job again!    |iiii ) and you remember that "courts love counseling"... .and you make sure your kids have really good therapists... .and you have a good therapist.

They have a "better than average" chance to grow into emotionally stable adults.

Thoughts? 

I'm sorry you are going through this.  I assure you that you are in the right place to get help.

FF

I don't like shuffling kids around either... .but it happens.

What if you got a place that you two could share and the kids stayed put?  Or if there was another church family she or both of you, could rotate through.

Is there an advantage to being the one that files?  In some states there are... some states no.

You need to completely understand the attorney's "possibility" of relocating thing.

I would think a court evaluator would quickly determine the dysfunction and put that in a report... .and squash a relocation.

FF

Regarding her FOO (I learned a new internet word today!)... .I've known from the day I met them that something was amiss. They both expect her obedience and conformity. There is only their way to do anything in life. To do otherwise results in shaming, "suit yourself" passive aggression, withholding of a affection or communications altogether (at times her mom won't even FaceTime with our kids if she's upset with my wife), etc.  They also have no boundaries and expect transparency and access to all of her. Her mom had no problems walking in to our bedroom without knocking, and even when seeing we were in bed in our sleeping attire, wouldn't apologize or see any reason to leave. Our therapist at one point described it as emotional incest, particularly with her mom. They have no reservations about criticizing and intervening in our parenting. On multiple occasions I've had them pick up a child and take them from me while I'm working with them in a tough situation. Her dad will write either of us letters to convince us of what we need to do. One recent example:

From her dad to her, last summer, regarding my wife asking him to refrain from "helping" (oh the things he does... .) on our house projects when he visited:

Because I've been immersed in her and her FOO for nine years, so much of their unhealthiness doesn't shock me anymore.  I forget how abnormal their behavior is, until I mention it to people and see their shocked reactions.  Don't get me wrong, I know my FOO has issues as well, and I'm working through that with my therapist, and that's one of the key differences. I see a lot of the unhealthy dynamics and seek to change them, while she denies any unhealthy dynamics and seeks to embrace them.

I would LOVE the nesting approach. I am convinced that would be the best setup for our kids. The child psych she brought us to for my son's anger suggested this and said it's the only setup she would recommend.  My wife bristled at this suggestion and stated then and since that it's absolutely out of the question. She "needs her own place." One (of several) strange things about that meeting with the psych was that my wife knew this was the psych's position, but smugly told me she expected the psych to back her up on her parenting plan (the one we currently have). When my wife made the appointment, the psych told her she firmly supports nesting, yet when we were in the office and before we asked about parenting plans, the psych stepped out of the room, at which point my wife told me to ask my parenting plan questions so I could "hear it from her." I later met with the psych and relayed to her that my wife had said that. Her response was initially shock, and that's when I learned what she'd said to my wife on the phone prior to meeting.  She later commented that she thought my wife had a "dissociation with reality."

Even for the interim, my wife refuses to stay with family or friends at all in order to let me stay with the kids overnight at the house, claiming it's too disruptive for her and she "shouldn't have to sacrifice anything."

One direct question I have is:  I find it hard to nearly impossible to convince people of what she's like, because she's so social and well-connected. Even *my* friends don't quite get what she's like in private. They believe me, but haven't experienced her. Thankfully my therapist completely understands, to the point where she can often predict my wife's behaviors.  I feel trapped by that, by my wife's social connections. She's free all week to meet with people and doing so with the kids is such an easy "in" for her. I feel like she can easily have a large crowd of "supporters", and I, meanwhile have far less time to connect, limited opportunities to engage the kids in social activities, and am now carrying the stigma of "the cheater".  I feel like a child locked up at home, abused, while the abuser schmoozes the town, and even if I "broke out", I'd never be believed and likely just returned to my home for more abuse.

So... .I would drop any and all efforts to convince other people.  Even if they ask. 

I would stick with things like "It's obviously and incredibly difficult time.  Your friendship means so much"  Then talk about the sports game and enjoy fellowship.

I break my life into two worlds.  A very small group (really professionals) and... say... .3-4 friends that I'm completely open with... .completely.

Even the friends I don't often vent or give details.  For instance the other day one of the friends was going to deposit some money (business deal... real estate) to me and he was like "I think I have your info on file from a few years ago"... .I gently said, I've got a new account with "just me" on it... .he chuckled and said "of course... " 

It was probably a few months before that he was talking about an issue with his teenager and I offered some strategies I've learned from my psychologist.  He then talked about a dispute with his ex wife... .we discussed how my wife and his ex were different... .and what was similar.

I see a psychologist weekly.  PhD type... very experienced.  Some weeks if stuff flares up, I see her more.  100% openness there.

Then... .the vast majority of my friends I am "normal".  I certainly don't paint my marriage to be something it is not... .but I don't ___ about it either.  Mostly... .I don't talk about it.

Then... .on here... I let it all hang out.

Here is the thing... .unless you have been in a r/s with a pwBPD... .or their FOO.  You won't get it... .you wouldn't believe they could be that bad.

So... I'm conservative Christian... .Baptist flavor.  It would appear you and the FOO are fairly religious. 

Try this on for size

"It's ok for someone to sin, if they are attempting to correct another and bring them back to the fold

Yeah... .read it again... .I heard it come from my wife's FOO... .her mother.  Basically... if my heart is in the right place... I can do whatever I want... .it's in the Bible.

Of course... .they can't and won't show you.

I would have had a field day with that letter you got (or email) from the FIL. 

I would suggest the following reply (I realize it's too late now... .but lets dream a bit)

"Thank you for confronting me on a sin issue.  There is nothing more important that ridding our lives of sin.  I'm so concerned that I don't see the sin that you are suggesting that I've moved on to the next form of Biblical discipline.  I've contacted the deacons at your church and we have meeting set up on Sep 1st at 7pm.  Does that time work for you?  Thank you for caring enough to confront sin that you see.   Love... .  The prodigal SIL"

Big picture... as you learn to "fight" BPD.  Stay friendly... .let them box themselves in.

In court... .shine the light... .consistently.  Be ready to create pressure while the light is shining on them.  pwBPD usually don't do well with pressure.  Be ready to settle on courthouse steps.  Many times they freak... .right before going to trial... .or even during a recess in trial.

They won't be reasonable.

FF

Okay. Let me just say that FIL's letter is one of the most offensive, shame riddled things I have read in a long while.     
I'm with you on this. Yeah, my FOO is no picnic in the park, but there is some serious pathology in that nicey, nice little gem of fatherly love. You are 1,000,000% valid in not wanting your children within several continents of that! I feel for your wife. Blech!


So nesting is a great approach for the kids, but your wife is not going to manage it. I have lived through this very scenario and discussion this past winter and spring. Look at it this way - you know how your wife has traditionally responded to change, like maybe getting ready to take a trip, an upcoming event like a birthday, anniversary or holiday. Usually, any little stress or upheaval tilts the world of a pwBPD into danger world. So, now take nesting - coming and going from your home during your parent times, not being able to control your environment when your away, etc. It just isn't possible. My wife proposed nesting, told me I was ridiculous to stay in our house until a second household could be secured for the kids, pressured me to move out over and over, made me set a date when I would start nesting. When I found two places I could stay while not at the "nest" and was ready to go within the deadline set, it then turned into how she never expected me to ask her to find a place when she was not at the nest and I was putting under soo much pressure, and I was a monster. So, no. Nesting will not work with a pwBPD. Nesting to them means you come and go, but they stay put.

Regarding convincing others of her behaviors, the common advice on this board is that the courts generally don't care about the bad behaviors or actions of a spouse. What they do care about is their parenting behaviors. That is where your focus needs to be. Showing the court your good, consistent, responsible parenting behaviors. Pointing out her bad behaviors is not always the best strategy. If you have specific evidence of things that she does that puts kids' health or well being into jeopardy, that should be presented, but it has to be evidence based, not hearsay. Hope that helps.

Could nesting be in a court order?  Could that be used to show who complies and who doesn't? 

Honestly asking... .I don't think I've heard of it on here before.

Offhand, if you are proposing it, counselor is behind it, likely a court evaluator would report kids want it... .it would leave the pwBPD the odd person out... .with a court asking what the issue is... .


Hmmm... ?

FF

Nesting or helicoptering in/out is probably impractical (unless you can pay the financial expense of 3 homes) and impossible to keep her from abusing (what would you do when she refuses to depart at the scheduled time or weasels/guilts her way back in or unilaterally decides to dictate new furniture, etc).

I'm surprised that a professional would say nesting is the only option.  What is best for the children is to see that Dad & Mom each have their own homes.  That would help them to separate your calm and stable management from her rants, raging, demanding, and controlling patterns.  Maybe nesting could work theoretically if there was little conflict but probably not since the arrangement would be prone to manipulation and abuse, and having 3 homes would be more expensive and exposed to more conflict than 2 homes with a clear authority separation.

Most of us have learned the hard way that our ex-spouse will do literally anything to sabotage us.  Having ourselves in the ex's perceived domain or the ex in our perceived domain is a recipe for disaster.  Yes, we could do it but not the high conflict ex that most here have.

Nesting keeps the kids in their home environment - less disruptive than having to go between two potentially both new environments. Great idea. Hard to do for regulated people in a divorce. Poorly regulated people in divorce - difficult and unlikely to work. I tried it and it failed before we ever started. Disordered thinker likely to think you are the one flying in and out of nest but nothing will change for them. Unequal from the outset.

I remember my Psychologist saying that nesting was "best" for kids... .IF... .it can be done well.

Then, knowing my wife the P wondered allowed if it would ever work and decided it likely wouldn't.  Certainly not the only option out there. 

Most of the divorced kids that I'm around seem to say that "never knowing where your stuff is"... .is the worst part of divorce.  Being at one house and wanting to get something from the other house.

FF

Hi, RM! I am also in the middle of the divorce process with my BPDw.

As I read your story (and I commend you on writing very clearly), I grew increasingly concerned over the serious mistakes you are making, perhaps out of the desire to seem like a reasonable, accommodating guy. The truth is that in divorce, if you do not stand up for your own rights, nobody else will. And you are in a very bad position right now. Here's a rundown of the top issues I saw:

1. You have no separation agreement, and your informal arrangement gives you minimal parenting time. She has the kids all the time, and she has complete control over any request you make.

2. Without any overnights, you are basically ceding 100% custody to your wife. THIS IS A HORRIBLE PRECEDENT TO SHOW THE COURT, because it communicates that you are a disengaged, absentee father. (Yes, I read about you making dinners and all that -- that is minimal involvement compared to what they are used to seeing from engaged parents.)

3. You do not have your own residence. You could not even make a credible case in court right now for increased custody and overnights, because you have nowhere to live and certainly no room for kids. You need to fix this right now. (And forget about nesting -- that is a fantasy.)

4. Collaborative divorce only works when the parties are able to agree on the broad strokes of the arrangement and negotiate the details. You and your wife want to live in different states -- this is not a circumstance where collaborative divorce will work, unless one of you is bluffing. Stop wasting time in this process, get your own attorney, and go to court.

5. When you go to court, you need to file motions for things that will put you in a more persuasive position to win a favorable custody arrangement. The number one thing you need to is to file for a parenting plan that gives you a # of overnights you are comfortable with -- if not 50/50, then certainly more than just 1-2 nights every few weeks. You need a written separation agreement, ordered by the court if necessary.

6. You may end up asking the court to decide if your wife can move the kids out of state. Right now, you would lose that battle easily, because you have no place to live and spend minimal time with the kids. If you're on a more even footing, you can make arguments about disrupting the kids' lives, their schools, your parenting time, the negative influence of your in-laws ... .but right now, you have few arguments on your side.

This is how I see it. It's not too late to turn things around, but you are going to have to make some big changes.

Wow, if only I could have written as well and concisely as flourdust!  Can you find a lawyer who would say that to you?  You don't want a forms filer or hand holder.  You need an experienced lawyer with solid strategies who is both proactive and a problem solver.

If you haven't yet, read SPLITTING: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy & Randi Kreger.  It's our #1 essential handbook.  To be informed is to be forewarned.

Other informative books include Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak and Boundaries by Henry Cloud.  There are many others that I'm not so familiar with, some very good lessons here on how to communicate with an ex-spouse and how to properly validate the children in age appropriate ways.  Some of the other boards here have articles and posts that delve into those aspects.

I agree with tourist and FD.

Here's the reality... .

Your wife could pack up your children and household goods and leave tomorrow, and you would have no legal standing to prevent it. You'd be left with an empty house and the need to start legal filings in, probably, two states.

So why not go ahead and get the protection of a temporary settlement agreement now?

Hello all,

Reading and appreciating your thoughts and support. It's been super busy trying to find a place to leave, and with the holiday weekend.

One quick point about nesting. The psychologist suggested that before realizing my wife's BPD behaviors.  She *did* say it required a high degree of cooperation.  Once the psych and I met further, however, she realized nesting wouldn't work with my wife behaving this way. Without low conflict, high cooperation, she said the next best thing would be a close to even split of time between the two parent's homes. It was her belief, though, that with very cooperative parents, nesting was the best option for kids. She based this on her research on the subject, knowledge of families who've done it, research on the effects on kids of moving between homes, and her own experience of going between homes as a child of divorced parents.

I just wanted to clear that up. 

Just a quick note after reading FD's nicely presented post and the follow ups below. My attorney has remained confident this whole time that my wife's position for relocation is extremely weak. I think this was my wife's attorney's feeling too, as she continually pushed her away from filing (which I think is what got her canned). 

Also, I am reading "Splitting", "Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex", and I have a copy of "Boundaries". I've gotten through most of "Eggshells," as well.

RealityMgt,

Thanks for clearing up those points.  It sounds like you have a good team.  Good teams are critical.

What do they say about YOUR current living situation and how the courts would perceive that towards granting parenting time?  I am very concerned that it is a disadvantage.

I hope your team is not "shooting for" 50/50.  I would hope you push for more and put your wife in the position of "proving" herself worthy.

That is generally where they PD "pops out".  It either benefits you or perhaps she gets help in order to "prove herself" wrong.

Asked another way, is your team going to "use" the PD to their (your) advantage?  What's the plan?

FF

How do you talk him through it?

These conversations are so painful  

Hello all. I'm sorry I dropped off in the last month. Things got very, very busy and I've had to put a lot of things on the back burner.

My wife fired her lawyer and picked up a new one from a different firm in a different county. Her first lawyer, and my current one, are in the same county, but it's not the county we live in. Her new lawyer is in our home county, and I don't know if that makes any difference. My attorney found out the first one had been fired and told me to find a place to set up residence immediately. I did, and the next day my wife filed.  In the order I was served (on my day at home with the kids, of course), was a statement that neither of us could establish a residence without the other's written permission. Close call, there. She's also now moving for our state's equivalent of full custody.

So, I've been spending the last few weeks scrambling to find a place to live and then furnishing it and getting it set up as a home for my kids, as well as meeting with my attorney, filing my response, and counter filing for divorce to keep my wife "in the game", so to speak, if(when) she realizes she's in over her head and wants to stall to get her ducks in a row.

We've crossed over into full debt mode now, as well. All the savings are drained and the debt from lawyers and furnishing my place has been mounting. We have a joint card, still, and she's put her lawyer fees on it to max it out so I can't use it, though we agreed it was fine to use for kid stuff. 

Emotionally it's... .a double-edged sword. On the one side, having a bed is wonderful, and it's exciting to know my kids will be coming (hopefully soon, with the temporary orders), but on the other, it's the first time I've lived apart from my wife, and my first time since college to live without roommates. It's lonely. And it's a further tangible proof of the separation of divorce. I still do miss her. I feel like that's the strange thing about being with this kind of person... .I love her, yet I hate how much she hurts me.  It's something I need to keep working through with my therapist.

I asked my wife the other day why she's trying to limit the kids' time with me, if she's trying to hurt me, if she thinks it's bad for them to be around me, etc. Her only response was, "where is your personal responsibility in this?"  I take this to mean she's still looking at time with the kids as one of the forms of currency by which she makes me pay my debt to her. 

Divorce is a mess, no question about it! Sounds like total war from your wife, but you are taking the right steps to protect yourself and your interests.

A couple of thoughts from your update... .

Did the court order come from your wife's new county of residence or your county? This may make a difference -- divorce is (as far as I know) determined by state law but administered by county family courts, and they can have different rules and procedures. Make sure you and your lawyer investigate family law procedures in whichever county has jurisdiction.

If you don't like the terms of the order that was issued by the court, you can file your own motion to make changes.

Blame Shifting.  She immediately shifts the blame from her to you.  That ranks right up there with blaming, control, emotional perceptions such as "I'm always right", etc.  Another thing to remember is that, especially now, you are unlikely to be unable to reason with her.  Asking searching, thought-provoking questions will be interpreted in her mind as open-ended questions to which she can divert topics and answer however she wishes.

Legally, she cannot end up with full custody, not unless the court agrees with her that there are serious issues with you.  To restate, the courts will not block your parenting unless it has serious concerns about you.  If she makes serious allegations, it's possible the court may order a quick psych evaluation of you before granting you a parenting schedule.  That brings up a sore point with me.  If one parent makes an allegation, then the accuser doesn't get scrutinized, only the accused does.  While I'm sure you would pass a quick psych eval, you really ought to want one that includes her too.  Your lawyer needs to speak up if things seem to go down that path and he needs to push for BOTH of you to get psych evals.  (Understand that it may not determine who is best to parent, usually it is a Custody Evaluation that digs deeper into what is best for the children.)

So it's possible that the court may want meet again after psych evals to make a "temp" order.  In our high conflict divorces, the temp orders often last a year or two (mine was about two years).  Yeah, not very temporary.  My temp order gave my then-spouse temp majority time and temp custody.  Why?  The magistrate asked just one and only one question... .What are your work schedules?  I replied I had a regular 5 day schedule.  She replied she "worked from home".  (Fact:  She couldn't work from home, which was anyway about $200 per month, because I had possession of the house in another court where she was facing a pending Threat of DV charge.)  So be aware the non-working spouse often is viewed to be the primary parent.

Another goal you need to state in court and on the record is that the family's finances are putting it in debt and she will need to look ahead to the transition into being a single parent and therefore find employment to assist in paying the bills, her bills.  Yes, it may be a little soon, generally financial issues are handled at the end of a divorce case, but probably best to get that discussed sooner rather than later.  She no doubt is thinking she can make charges and you'll pay the bills.  A disordered spouse's sense of entitlement and control is extremely high at the beginning of a separation and divorce.

Be aware that she will expect she gets the money and you get the debts.  Supposedly the debts and assets will be split correctly near the end of the divorce, but be forewarned that the lawyers are likely to skip over the extra moneys she spends or hides now.

It sounds like your lawyer may be an on-the-ball proactive attorney.  Good, that's what Bill Eddy & Randi Kreger recommend in their excellent SPLITTING: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  Also, your lawyer needs to set a problem solving example.  That's how the court needs to perceive you, not as just a complainer but more so as the parent presenting practical solutions.

Can you dispute the charges on your credit card?  Since it was not something you had agreed to?  Might be time to close out those joint debt things.

Thoughts?

FF

If she is dysregulated (and it sounds like she is), she will have a hard time grasping the emotional inner lives of loved ones, since her own emotions will consume her.

And part of that means that, to her, the kids must feel the way she feels, there is no other reality. Hers is an emotional logic, not a rational one.

She limits their time because she limits her time, if that makes sense. They can't have their own emotional reality separate from hers.

Thank you all for your support.



I did.


I think my post wasn't clear. We live in the same county, the county we lived in when married. My attorney and her first attorney were in a neighboring county. She recently fired hers and hired a new one in the county we reside in. I don't know if any of this means anything.

You hit the nail on the head.  My attorney has started to see this, as well,  and wants to focus on it with the custody proceedings.  (it's so hard to "catch it" and show it to people) For example, my wife put up major fight a couple of months ago about me wanting to take the kids out of state on a road trip to my parents.  One of her many bizarre reasons was that we could get stranded on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere, where human traffickers would find us, kill me, and abduct the kids. 

I am genuinely concerned for the coming winter. My wife has historically suffered from seasonal depression, and I know she's under significant stress right now. She apparently has stopped eating dairy, which she's said may be from stress, and is pretty worried about money (she's EXTREMELY fearful about finances, to the point where it's sometimes mildly debilitating from "normal life".  When we were first married she insisted that everyone should have $100k in savings at all times, as a minimum. And every purchase is scrutinized and agonized over. As I said, we're in full debt mode now, and the road is long, and her "plan" is to rack up debt and then pay it off with the sale of our house. She told me this.) On top of that, the kids WILL be staying with me some, and I know she's afraid of the loneliness of losing them.  I don't know how to watch for warning signs, so I'll be asking my therapist about that, as well.


Yes, but that's going to cost lawyer time and I'm not sure what will be gained. 


Yes. The situation is 100% my fault, she says, so she should not have to suffer. She's said this openly many times, even to a child psychologist we met with. It's supported by the pastors at our former church. This behavior of blaming has been a constant from the start of our marriage. 

ME: why are you being so mean right now?
HER: I wouldn't have to be if your ideas weren't so terrible.

ME: you should stop throwing stuff around, you'll wake up the kids
HER: well, you shouldn't have got me so mad

Hundreds of these interactions over the years. And she spins it as "he's always blaming me for everything."

My attorney has assured me of this as well. My side will be bringing in a GAL or CE, and she will most certainly be under the microscope. Unfortunately, there's little that can be done in a similar fashion with her family. My attorney has also warned me that she will almost certainly remain the primary parent due to our work schedules (she works one day a week, not nearly enough to support herself).

I forgot to mention: we have our first court date set for about three weeks from now. She wanted it to be about finances. My attorney also requested we cover the temp. parenting plan.  Yes, she wants me to cover all her legal expenses as well (but she also said her plan is to use the profit from the house... .who knows... .). She initially said months ago that she wanted the house and everything in it, with the plans to sell it all and keep the proceeds. We would split savings 70-30 (for her), she said. I don't know if that's still where she is, but I think the reality of debt is hitting her, since she told me I should start selling things in order to pay for the furnishing of my apartment.


Yes, my attorney has been doing this with me, as well. Offer solutions at all times.

Dispute as in call the credit card company and dispute the charges, not get a lawyer to do it.

Also... .may want to consider closing joint accounts before she can do more damage.  You can close accounts (at least in my state) without asking.

FF

Believe it or not, my ex was quite frugal.  But I heard she still lost her part of the marital equity when she started her own business and it failed to attract customers.

I never paid her lawyer fees, apparently the lawyers agreed her lawyer would get paid from the split of the marital assets, the house equity.  She got over $40K when I refinanced the house and over $20K of my retirement account.  Would that work for you, that the lawyers get paid from the equity split closer to the end of the divorce?  Some prognosticators are saying we're in a housing bubble, if the bubble bursts, home values will drop, what took years to grow may drop in months.

Millions of families have working mothers.  She may claim she has to be with the young children but really there are neighbors, family and day care that can fill those gaps.  Not that they're good choices.  Neighbors may have limits to the help they'll give.  Day cares cost money.  Her family stepping in may enable her to further estrange you.

In my case, my ex eventually had to work and she had no choice but to seek places for our child.  At first she used a local Head Start program but later used daycares.  I was okay with that since exchanges didn't always have to be face to face with her and so there was less conflict then.

So much of this unrealistic entitlement is tied into the twisted idea of responsibility the pwBPD has. I go through this frequently with my stbxw. She continually insists that I acknowledge/admit my responsibility, which being a responsible person, I often fall into the trap of thinking, "Okay. What is my responsibility in this?" But as ForeverDad and lnl have noted, this is emotional logic that leads to blame shifting, "I am feeling the weight of financial debt being incurred. I am uncomfortable with this feeling. You are responsible for my discomfort. When will you acknowledge/take on your responsibility to make me not feel what I am feeling?"

I would definitely get off that joint credit card account and get agreement that all current purchases not agreed to and made specifically to provision for the children are the individual responsibility of the party that made the purchase.

Our bank told me joint checking and/or savings accounts require both parties be present to close them.  The joint credit card is actually primarily in her name, so any credit problems will be hers. However, I'm concerned with the money in our joint accounts being used to pay off the card.



This is a core tenet of her argument for moving to be near her parents, out of state. She believes she will have to work more (though I've shown that it's possible not to) and as such, needs someone to watch the kids.   She insists it can only be her parents because "you can only trust family" and she only wants people who will "pour into them". The two quotes are two of her repeated buzz-phrases she relies on in this argument.  She's said the kids can never go to daycare, not even for a half day on a Friday afternoon before I could pick them up.  And yet, we send the kids to Sunday school, one is in preschool, and she even leaves them in the kids area at the rec center while she works out a few days a week.  The last one really blows my mind, because the qualifications and safety measures at the "babysitter room" of the rec center are FAR less adequate than any daycare. 

She continues to say "I'm not going to cut you out of their lives" as an assurance when I object to the parenting plan or object to moving them out of state.  Yet the parenting plan is currently hindering their relationship with me, and she wants to further reduce contact between me an them, and she now wants full custody.  It's like she's cutting me with a knife while looking me right in the eye and saying in full sweetness and sincerity, "I'd never hurt you".  Those last two qualifiers, sweet and sincere, are the creepiest part.  I think she actually believes what she says. And she says it so kindly, with a tone of "oh you big silly-head, I'd never do something like,"... .while she's doing it. Twice she's slipped up and told me she's trying to keep the kids from me, and when I later brought it up, the direct quotes even, she completely denied it. Again, I think she believes she never said it.  She believes her version of reality, so say she's lying is generally not accurate, though she does consciously lie at times, too. 


My attorney put something very close to that in the counter-filing.

 
So... my understanding of "joint" is that it means equal.  Perhaps you are an "authorized user" on her account.  (I'm speaking about CC account)

Let's look big picture.  Where does the money YOU earn go?  If it goes to a joint account... .I would change that... asap.

How much money is "sitting there" in joint accounts?


Listen... .I'm not sure where "money issues" are on your priority list.  I sense that you don't completely understand your financial picture... jointness and all that.

You will need money to work through the divorce.   That's your problem.  Many pwBPD can't do much with money... .that's their problem.

My goal is to make sure that you protect and use your money wisely.

FF

It just so happened that a few months before my separation I had to replace the car I drove.  Until then both our vehicles were jointly registered.  well, she was with me but refused to get out of the car.  So my new car was listed in my name only.  She knew I'd be getting a loan from my retirement plan to buy it.  Well, once I had the papers from work for the required J&S signature from her, she outright refused.  Work's efforts failed.  The dealer was fuming at her obstruction.  I went to our mortgage bank and got a car loan (at a higher interest rate) and they required me to open an account there.  So I changed my paycheck to be deposited there.  Oh was she outraged - but she had done it to herself.

What formflier wrote was correct, you can regain some control over your life by depositing your paycheck into a personal account.  You could still transfer to the joint account as appropriate for marital or family expenses.  But you would be limiting her ability to divert your income from marital expenses to other places.

Have you talked to your lawyer about moving some of the money in the joint account (no more than half) to an individual account, that might be an option too.

Panda39

How so?

Yes. She said not to, but yes that I can redirect my paycheck to an individual account.

 

I would ask her... .going forward, why you should continue to "expose" your money to misuse.  I'm not suggesting you not pay family bills, just that you be the one to use the money... .not your wife.

Would you really want her lawyer fees paid with your money.


Ummm, back to the joint thing.  I'm not aware of a "joint account" that is "really more hers than yours".  Either you are responsible for it or not.  There really is no grey.

I would suggest you call credit card company and eliminate the grey.  Perhaps  you are not joint and just an authorized user.


FF

I understand the point about the joint accounts.  I believe, however, simply taking all the money from the accounts would violate the current orders, unless we agreed to split the money somehow. 

About the CC, I misspoke.  I'm an authorized user.

 Obviously... confirm with your lawyer what the order does and doesn't say. 

Perhaps a better order in future is to specify what bills will be paid by who... .vice location  of the money.

FF

One of the harsh realities of divorce is that the consequences for violating any or all parts of the order may be a slap on the wrist.

It is not uncommon in divorce for one party to clear out the bank account -- some lawyers advise it. There are often no repercussions.

In my case, my L (ethical, assertive) advised me to withdraw half of what we had in a joint account. This became an "advance" on what would come out of our equitable financial distribution. She felt it was better to have the money and give it back (if it came to that), then try to get the money from my ex after the distribution was ordered.

It might be worth asking your L to outline the consequences if you took out half. Motions for contempt tend to get treated like parking tickets in family law court.

The alternative is that she drains an account, is ordered to replace it, and doesn't. Then you have to pay additional legal fees to go back to court to file a motion for contempt against her, and then she has leverage. If you try to get her to pay attorney fees for the motion for contempt, you may get awarded those fees, but then have to go to court AGAIN to get those fees. I went through this exact scenario.

And when they award legal fees, it is only a portion of what you pay.

Family law court can be aggravating beyond belief when it comes to this stuff.

 
And... .more importantly than the half (IMO) is to stop putting more in there.

Yes... .still pay your part of the bills... .but I can't imagine that the court order says you have to keep putting your money in the same place.  Perhaps it does... .I would work on changing that.

FF

Be prepared, too, when you set boundaries like these for there to be an extinction burst. She will try to figure out how high to turn the dial in order to get you back in line.

If your L green lights you being proactive, and you cannot bring yourself to protect your assets even when the law says you are entitled to, it might be a good idea to keep a therapist in the loop.

I gave my T permission to talk to my L, because T knew I had a tendency to self-sabotage when it came to my interests. I was ready to give away the 401K and the house to minimize conflict and assuage my guilt. My L, having talked to the T, prevented me from giving away the 401K, but not the house.

It ended up costing me money to GIVE the house to N/BPDx. It took four trips to court to get him to refinance, and I didn't receive any proceeds from the house to offset what it cost me to get myself financially untangled. Lesson learned.

When it comes to the financial part of divorce, it's a business contract that is coming to an end. It will be hard to set aside your emotions at this early stage, but the more you are able to do this (with help from people who care about you), the easier it will be as you heal and move forward.

Good that you're only an authorized user on her credit account.  Yes, she could cancel your card if she wished, but it would technically be her debts.  Of course, divorces seldom apportion debts according to whose card it is but at least you don't have to deal with the potential complications of cancelling a joint account.

If your joint bank accounts have high balances, somehow I doubt that if you're under financial strains, you could just pay bills and work the balances lower while simultaneously depositing your paycheck into a personal account.  If she freaks out about that change (as mine did!) you can always state that you will continue being responsible paying the marital bills.  Where you put the money is not important as long as you continue the same pattern of responsibly paying the rent, mortgage, utilities, etc.  (Actually it is important — so you can avoid money being wasted or snatched — but trying to explain that reality won't work with someone entitled and determined to acknowledge only her own perspective.)  But of course emotionally she won't choose to see that distinction.  Just batten down the hatches and weather the storm, so to speak, you have to be judicious where you fight your skirmishes and battles.  The days of appeasing simply to avoid the pain of conflict are in the past and appeasing never did work, not for long anyway.

LnL is right, with all the new boundaries you'll have to set in the upcoming months, prepare yourself for extinction bursts where she will demand you retreat back to the old ways.

Response to LivednLearned: 
You nailed it. A lot of these things I am experiencing as well.  The emotions are messy and cloud judgment in these things. It's difficult, as I have a friend going through a very similar situation (don't know if his ex is pwBPD or not, though) with a very entitled ex (this entitlement was part and parcel of their marriage, as well), and he was urged (bullied) by our church (my *former* church) to give her whatever she wanted. So he did. And now, strangely, after their divorce was finalized, she's more or less reabsorbed him into the family. He now sees her and their kids six days a week, even going on out of state trips together to visit family, which is far above and beyond the parenting plan they agreed to. I'm happy for him, but it's hard for me to see it and then look at my situation. So what I wrestle with at times is wondering if my friend took the right path, to appease and acquiesce. 

BUT... .his ex and my soon-to-be ex are *not* the same person, and mine is asking for far more sacrifice and control than his ex did. 

"Extinction burst" - I wasn't familiar with that term, and don't know if you coined it, but that's a wonderfully accurate description. Any time I do something outside of her knowledge or control, there is a flare up. This has always been the case in our marriage.  Now, however, their existence seems more bizarre, since she *wants* me out of her life, yet when I take steps in doing that, she erupts.

T talking to L, that's an interesting idea I may want to consider.  T has been through these kinds of cases for decades and has been telling me that from all she can see, my wife cannot be reasoned with and will only cause more destruction if I try to accommodate her. 

Response to ForeverDad
We talked about the card last night and have agreed to pay off our own parts of the debt, pay for kid stuff debt with the cash in the joint accounts, and then close the card.

She's expecting our finances to be split following the court appearance this month. I don't know if that's the case, or not. I will be changing my direct deposit before the next paycheck (end of month), regardless.

You're right, appeasement never worked. Nothing was ever good enough.

By way of update
She again said last night, quite clearly and intentionally, that the only reason she used the court order to try to stop me from getting an apartment was because she doesn't want me having a place with the kids to be used as argument for not moving out of state. She knows it's good for them to have time with me, but she admitted (again) that she tried to block that so she can make the argument to move out of state.  I hope this matters to the court, that she's strategically trying to keep the kids from their dad against what she believes to be in their best interest in order to advance her own agenda. 

For some people with BPD, there seems to be a compulsion to recreate a betrayal bond of sorts. My T referred to it as a revenge fantasy. It isn't necessarily about a desire to push you away versus pulling you in, it's more like a compulsion to do both, at once. The point is to recreate the dynamic, a familiar but awful reenactment that is a poor substitute for a sense of self.

Part of this is the weak sense of self that makes boundaries utterly confounding for someone with BPD. More or less, she sees others as parts of herself, so when you act independently, she feels a loss of control over herself. This is why kids with BPD parents suffer so much. Healthy development requires individuation of self from primary caregivers, and a BPD mother cannot abide that because it's experienced as a loss of control over herself. Boundaries between herself and others are not intuited, they have to be constantly tested to gauge their whereabouts.



It can be very freeing to realize this.

She cannot be pleased or appeased. Therefore, you can focus on ways to protect yourself and your son. In doing so, you may also end up protecting her, since her judgment is likely tangled up too far in emotional logic to make good choices.

Thinking about her condition and not focusing on the impact of it on others makes me sad for her.  I knew something was a bit "off" with her when we were dating, in our late twenties, but I couldn't put my finger on it, and didn't know nearly the extent of it until we were married.  I should've took precautions and vetted out the flags I was seeing back then, but instead I thought, "love can fix anything," and I charged ahead, not knowing the nightmare I was entering.  It's so strange, because to others she's a sweet woman who everyone loves, but she's a monster in the closet to me.  I know it's there, but no one else can see it because it always seems to disappear when I turn on the light to expose it.  A very small number of people have observed anomalies with her, but haven't known what to make of it. Our longtime friend and pastor has always said he "doesn't know anyone like her", that he can't read her at all, and often feels afraid to talk to her. I believe that deep down she knows something is wrong, as well, because back in our dating she had said something about how she felt that if I really knew her I wouldn't like her, and she mentioned how she opened up to me more than anyone, even her parents (which says a lot), and that she trusted me more than anyone.  That all changed in marriage, though, when it became apparent we weren't moving to live by them. Then she suddenly couldn't trust me with anything. When we finally saw a T, the T initially made some very good observations, but as my wife spent more 1-on-1 time with her, they seemed to buddy up, and I believe the T is absorbed in her world now.  She's just so good at managing her reality and removing anyone who threatens to unravel it.

Her dad is visiting at the house for a week. That likely means some "pieces are moving".  Whenever either of her parents come to visit, there's a task to be accomplished. Incidentally, they always visit separately unless they're coming for some shared event, like a family reunion.  I've never been able to find a reason why this is, or what it means.

I am very fearful for how she'll hurt and negatively shape our kids. I know she loves them, but I know she's also not aware of her behavior and its impact on others.  I had pleaded with her over the years to get professional help, for herself, and also for the sake of our kids, because, I reasoned, if she treated me this way, she'd eventually treat them that way, as well. I always had the sense that as the kids got older and more independent, her aggression toward them would increase. My T recently brought that up with me and confirmed my fears.  I think it's already beginning to show in how she interacts with our 4 y.o. son. She consistently refers to him as "strong-willed" and seeks to employ very stern measures with him such insisting as we must spank (with a wooden spoon even), that 4 y.o.s "can't be reasoned with", and demanding "first time obedience." I don't mean to start a debate on parenting techniques here, but to contrast her approach with mine, which sees my son as a very compliant boy who only gets more frustrated and rebellious with harsh punishment, but who will behave very well when treated with respect and disciplined reasonably. 

The spanking thing got out of hand in our relationship.  I reported my wife to Social Services when she wouldn't stop... .we no longer spank our children.

For years we would occasionally spank ... .including me doing it, and I believed it was appropriate.  So, I'm not a "never spank" guy.

As things shifted in our r/s and got more "BPDish" I stopped spanking and my wife would refuse to discuss technique, she would spank over similar things that you mentioned... .first time obedience... .etc etc.

It seemed to get more and more unreasonable and my children seemed to get more and more frustrated.

The spanking in anger got more an more.  I finally couldn't stand it anymore so I made the report.

Anyway... .parenting techniques is a good debate to have.  I try to be open minded and I believe that "properly applied" just about any parenting technique is good, especially if done consistently. 

First time obedience is wonderful... I push for that.   The adult has a responsibility to make sure the child is paying attention and the message has been received.  My wife tried to morph it into kids should spend 100% of their time "listening for mommy to say something... ."... .which is completely unreasonable.

1.  Step 1... .get their attention. 
2.  Pass message
3.  Expect obedience.

I watched her "claim" that kids had heard her... when they clearly hadn't, and honestly I blamed her technique (looking away while speaking in a soft voice, not using a child's name... etc et). 

Then... I was "taking the kids side" which enraged her further.

I say all this to emphasize that if you think kids are frustrated... .rather than disciplined by spanking... .you need to intervene sooner rather than later.

FF

I agree, I *do* need to intervene quickly when I sense her methods and expectations frustrate them, which seems to happen frequently.  She seems to swing between really loose and overly restrictive, with the restrictive side being quickly escalated and very demanding. It seems to frustrate my son. Unless this changes, I expect it will get worse as both of the kids age and become more independent.

By way of update, our initial court date is only two weeks out. I'm still getting the apartment kid-ready, and meanwhile she's let on that she's trying to reduce my parenting time to every other weekend and "maybe" some weeknight time. Currently I see go to the house two weeknights, make dinner, and put the kids to bed, then spend all day every Saturday with them while she works (before they're up to after they're in bed), and every other Sunday I pick them up for church and spend the day at the house with them until she comes back home around dinner time. When asked why she'd do this, or how it's good for the kids, she only answers, "I didn't want it to come to this, but I only wanted one thing", that is, relocation. Which isn't true. She's had very inflexible demands about a number of things, such as parenting time and finances. It sounds nice when she says it to people, though. This summer she'd said she was then (July) so angry with me about relocation that she was tempted to use the parenting plan against me. I mentioned that to her this week and she of course denied ever saying such a thing. My attorney's told me to document all such statements for the GAL to refer to. In all this I'm hurt, hurt for the kids, and angry that she would use them as a currency or punishment/reward in order to get her way.  She's been doing this the whole time; offering "so much more" if I'd just "trust her judgment as a mom" and accept relocation, and withdrawing and threatening to withdraw access to the kids when her anger with me flares up.

Is your documentation solid?  Any recordings?

FF

For months I've been recording every in person interaction I have with her (I wish I had started from day one, though). We have very few phone calls, and I try to avoid them because I can't record them (haven't figured out the technical side, and I'm not sure it's legal). She seems to use the phone when she needs to say something she doesn't want to have captured in text.  Thankfully, text is her preferred method of communication and she's said things by text that exhibit the behavior mentioned in my last post. There are numerous recordings of her saying these kinds of things as well. My attorney's told me writing is preferred over recordings, but recordings may be valuable as well.

She doesn't get to decide who gets what when it comes to the kids  :)


Does your L think this is the schedule that will become status quo?

I know, but she does get to fight for it. She continually refers to parenting arrangements in terms of "fair" and "deserve", in reference to what happened in our marriage. She sees kids as the currency or punishment/reward lever that she has the moral authority to wield. When I told our mediator before our first mediation session that my wife's position was inflexible and she'd offered to "give me so much more time with the kids" if I accepted relocation, the mediator's firm response was "It's not *hers* to give!" Unfortunately, her obstinate position and entitled perception could result in a parenting arrangement that's far less than ideal. My L said we may end up starting at the court's default plan and over time, with a GAL or CE, being able to chip away at it to get something better.  I've taken care of my kids since they were infants, I stayed overnight with them alone while they were nursing while my wife worked nights, I've taken care of them consistently in every way she has, and I was always home and engaged with them when I wasn't working. I never did "football in the den all day Sunday" (not that that's even wrong!), but when I wasn't at work I was *very* engaged with the family.  I'd take off work to do doctor's visits, not because she couldn't, but because I always wanted to be there. I scouted out the preschools, not my wife. And I could go on. I hope these are things that get considered. 


She's said it's possible because it's been in place so long, but she said not to worry yet, because there is more than ample evidence/documentation that I've never been satisfied with it and only allowed it to continue (by not filing earlier) because I thought there may be a chance to work things out more peaceably and to arrive at a more balanced solution. 

She has a mental illness that distorts reality, so her definition of fair will be different than what a court sees as fair.

And asking for more than what is fair is par for the course in family court. It's often a negotiating strategy, although a BPD sufferer is more likely to make these pronouncements based on entitlement, not negotiation strategy. It can help to ask for more than what you expect so that you can cede terms until you reach the compromise you feel is acceptable. And the other side feels they got a "win" because you didn't get everything you wanted.

 

That's how it worked in my case, more or less.

Courts aren't great at figuring out what's going on in the family, so sometimes it will set up a 50/50 and then you have to document a pattern of problematic parenting. In my case, what caught the court's attention is my ex's (a lawyer) inability to follow what was a pretty simple parenting order. Most reasonable people don't want to end up back in court, and don't find it hard to adhere to terms they agreed to (which we did in mediation). That kind of stuff starts to look pretty strange to a judge.


What I've read, based on research, is that more moms ask for more custody than dads. In the cases where dads ask for more custody, they are just as likely to get what they ask for as moms who ask.

Sometimes, too, Ls try to manage a dad's expectations, telling them that dads don't tend to get x amount of custody, and then end up perpetuating that exact bias.

Just a quick thought, before replying more later: 

50/50... .what does this term mean?  The standard plan in this state says for dads it's something like every other weekend and a night or two during the week.  And yet I keep hearing people say 50/50. This doesn't look anything like 50/50, at least not how I do math... .

50/50 means an equal split in overnights - there are multiple ways to get there: for example, alternating Fri-Mon overnights combined with alternating three weekdays on opposing weeks.

The assumption in my state is 50/50 assuming both parents are invested and capable.

Every other weekend can start at 3pm on Friday and end with you dropping the kids off at school at 8am on Monday. Or, it can be you picking the kids up from mom's Sat morning at 10am and dropping them off Sun at 7pm (or some variation).

Same with a night in the middle of the week. You could get 5-7 on a Wed night, or you could get after school + overnight (dropping off at school the next morning), or returning them home at 8pm after doing homework.

If you have Wed, Fri, Sat, Sun overnights once a week, you could then do Wed, Fri, Sat overnights alternating weeks, trying to get things as close to 50/50 as possible, spread over two weeks.

Your ex will love it if you ask for more overnights  :)

And your kids will benefit from having you tuck them in and wake them up as much as possible, establishing those routines with you.

Is there a way to upload an attachment to posts. I have an excel spreadsheet that shows a couple of different scenarios about 50/50 splits that I think might be helpful.

Some updates in my story... .

Church Life
I've become a member at our (new) church. This is a big deal for me, as Christian life was a huge part of my life from age 21 to about three years ago (when the marriage really fell apart internally). This year has been an incredible time of restoration of my faith in a way I could not have imagined.  In that regard, it's been the best year of my life.  While the external situation has continued to fall apart, internally I've been better than ever. Church membership was something my wife always objected to in our marriage, because she was convinced we'd be relocating by her parents. Since moving to our metro area 12 years ago, I'd been very involved at the church - leadership teams for youth groups, teaching Sunday school, etc. - and ended up pulling back from a lot of that when we got married.  But I've long wanted to be a member of the church.  So this summer with the bizarre falling out with one of the pastors (directly) and the church leadership (indirectly), and with my wife beginning to take our kids to a different church (she says it was because the one we've gone to for eight years was too inconvenient (?) ), I was feeling very displaced. I didn't want to take the kids back and forth between churches, so I started going to the "new" church.  It's one I'd gone to initially when I moved here 12 years ago, before finding the church I've been at.  So, it's a place and people I was already familiar with. I met with one of the pastors and the former divorce ministry leader (I think I mentioned this earlier) and began the path to membership. The leadership knows our story and the things I did to contribute to the collapse of our marriage. I went through my membership interview with a church leader who has himself walked that path (though his wife did not divorce him), so he could relate to the things I've been through and am going through. It's good to be here. My wife, however, continues to assert she doesn't need to talk to church leadership at the new church about our divorce (even though it was her initiative to go there) because we've "gone through that process at our church". When asked which church is "our church" she points to the old one, though she doesn't go there and isn't involved there at all, and IS involved in several things at the new one (two bible studies each week and a workout group for moms during daytime weekdays), in addition to attending there.  The new church is very opposed to divorce, the old one had the mindset of "you should consider reconciling, but we'll support whatever you decide, and you should get whatever you want from 'the bad guy'". The cognitive dissonance that exhibited itself in conversations with their leadership was absolutely mind boggling, especially for a church whose mega pastor prides himself on intellectualism. But I digress... .

Court
Our first court appearance is this week.  My attorney and I touched base last week, and she expects that we'll get some resolution around the financial situation and an interim parenting plan. I had been thinking my wife wants our finances split, because she's constantly talking about us having "boundaries" and being finally "separated", but this weekend something happened that made me begin to seriously doubt that.  She texted to ask if I'd be OK with her spending $600 to fly her and the kids to her parents for a week. My thought was, "that's not a necessary familial expense, so put it on your CC," and then I realized that's what I have been doing, but not at all what she has been doing. I've tried to protect the little shared funds we have left, while she's used them for whatever she wants. Granted, she's not a big spender by any stretch of the imagination, but she's shown no signs of keeping spending on her to herself.  So I asked if she expects split finances as an output from our first court appearance, since she had plated up finances as the topic for that day (I added parenting topic).  She only said, "it could take a while" and then kept asking why I want to know.  So I wonder if she actually wants to keep finances together so she has access to the whole pile, or if she is only dodging the question because she knows I'm implying she should pay for this trip herself and she's trying to snatch up the cash before it's split (and she is asking my approval merely for optics). I brought up how it's odd she thinks this should be a joint expense but has opposed me using joint funds to prepare the apartment for the kids. Her reasoning on that is that I chose too expensive of a place and have used our HSA money on a counselor, so somehow that means kid essentials aren't a joint expense (what the heck?).

Regarding parenting, I'm going to seek for the interim that the two weeknights I put the kids to bed at her (our) house be converted to overnights at my apartment and that I have the kids there Friday and Saturday nights as well. She works a 12-hour shift every Saturday, leaving the house at 5:30 and not getting back until well after the kids are in bed, so it makes sense for them to just be with me Fri/Sat night. With Sundays, I would like us to alternate; "ON" weeks for me would have me bring that to her in the afternoon, "OFF" weeks I would bring them over before church.  That way we both get to take the to church. I think this is a pretty reasonable split, although ideally we'd both see the kids all the time (this isn't about "fair" for mom v. dad, it's about what's good for the kids), and if not that, then I would still think since she's with them M-F all day I should get all the evening time with them... .but that won't happen. SIGH.

HELP
I'm looking for help thinking through what her "game plan" might be. Here are some things I can't quite understand:

• She keeps talking about us being split, separated, divided, having boundaries, etc. but is evasive on the topic of splitting finances
• More than anything, she wants to relocate, but she didn't put that in any of the papers. My L thought this was odd.
• My L called her L to talk about finances/parenting, but the call was never returned. My L said, "she could just be busy, but it was a bit strange."
• She keeps asking to see my apartment. In my mind that makes sense from the standpoint of her wanting to feel good about the place the kids are going to stay, but I feel like every time I've tried to be considerate of her, she's turned it against me. I don't know how she may want to use this against me, but I feel reluctant to trust her, even though I want her to feel good about it and not be worried. A close friend who's been walking through this with me, cautioned, "She's never satisfied. Nothing you do will be good enough." And he's right. In the marriage and now, nothing is ever good enough. It's like it's two separate currencies; she demands X, but it's actually Y that she wants. Y is a deeper heart issue (anxiety, insecurity, etc.), but she thinks she can fix it with X. I deliver X to her and it always disappoints.  So, with this, nothing I can do at the apartment will be good enough. Even if she doesn't intend to use this against me, she'll still have made up problems with the place. If I don't have her visit, then she'll accuse me of secrecy, endangering the kids ("he must be hiding something!", etc.  One of my friends, who went through all this last year (his wife kept using all his acts of kindness against him), said "It's hard to keep smiling when you keep getting kicked in the teeth." All that to say, my L said she agrees my wife may try to use it against me, but the GAL or CE will also visit my place, and it's their word that matters, not my wife's.  She said ultimately it may benefit me in the court's eyes if I have her visit, as it reinforces my pattern of trying to be helpful and working together even when I have nothing to gain by these actions.

I think it's ironic that she keeps painting me as "the bad guy" but in this whole situation I continually default to looking out for her, whereas she continually defaults to taking advantage of me.

Hey RealityMgt,

I'm so glad you found a new church that is fulfilling you so much  :)

The same happened for me, and marked a real turning point in my life.

About the apartment, one thing I do with BPD people in my life is to say no while saying yes to something else. For example, "I am happy to have you take a look at the place. We can set up a time after the GAL has been here for a visit." That way you're being cooperative (if it matters to the court) while also setting a limit that is perfectly reasonable. And it might even act as an incentive for her to move forward with the CE, which she could otherwise sabotage for no other reason than managing her own anxiety about the home visit.

Setting limits is going to become a big part of post-divorce life so this is just as much for you as it is for her, learning how to have new boundaries. Even emotionally healthy people have to navigate this stuff. The difference with your wife is that she will, like you say, become consumed with Y when it's really about X (great way to describe it, btw).

About the finances, she wants you out of the picture, unless it's convenient for her, and keep all the money and the kids to herself. That's how that works.  :)

About the relocation stuff, maybe there is no urgency to have those details hammered out at this stage? Or maybe someone has told her how difficult it will be? Or maybe she knows deep down that living near her parents will engulf her, and she only talks about it as a way to create some semblance of control over her interpersonal stress with you? BPD logic is hard to second-guess, sometimes. Maybe she just didn't get her act together in time.

About the not responding to calls, stonewalling and obstructing is kinda common in BPD divorces. It's stressful to divorce, and people with BPD don't do stress well. She might be shutting down, or feel flooded with emotion.

Thank you.

I appreciate the reminder about limits/boundaries. I'd been focused on this a while back, but lost sight of it lately.  I like the idea of "yes, but not yet".

I think you're on point regarding the money, as well. Whatever maximizes her comfort and convenience is what she'll pursue. Ideally, she'd have all the money and I would evaporate or something. Kind of like how her initial proposal was that she'd sell the house and keep 100%, she'd get first dibs on all possessions, and take the majority of the savings.  Never mind that aside from that being absurdly unfair between the two of us, that would leave nothing for me to use to support a household for kids, which, I guess also serves her purposes, since then she can say the kids shouldn't go to be at all since I wouldn't be able to provide for them. This IS what she wants, though she'll pay lip service to the kids needing to be around their dad, when the conversation heats up her real perspective comes out ("I shouldn't have to give up anything. I shouldn't have to suffer. It wasn't MY choices that got us here. A great dad wouldn't do what you did, that's why I'm trying to keep them from you. Etc... ."

As a point of clarity, it's my wife's L that's not calling my L back.  I think it may have come across that it's my wife that's stonewalling (though she certainly does this, too).

My counselor last week noticed I'm showing signs of building up stress and was able to discern that I'm bottling up my anger about this situation. I am. I'm just flabbergasted and infuriated at the ways she is using the kids as pawns/weapons/currency and how she's continued to be deceptive and entitled. She last week tricked me regarding trick or treating with the kids, so that I took them last week so she could take them tomorrow. She made it sound like she would not want to take them tomorrow because she'd be too distraught from court and wouldn't want to interact with me that afternoon at all. So I took them last week. It was a GREAT time. I made my son's (4 y.o.) costume (retro space man, complete with rocket pack (thanks Pinterest)) and took him and my 2 y.o. daughter.  Come to find out yesterday she was/is actually planning to take them to a friend's house tomorrow and go trick or treating there. That had been her plan the whole time. So, again, stupid me, thinking I'm trying to be considerate of her, get taken for a fool one more time. She doesn't even care about Halloween.  Her plan for my son's costume was stuff a pillow case with cotton and call him a marshmallow. For our daughter, she picked out her (my wife's) favorite thing, a peacock, and bought/found a used costume somewhere. My daughter is old enough to know what a lot of things are, and carry on simple conversations, but she has no idea what a peacock is.  And my son definitely had more ambitious ideas than a marshmallow.  He and I worked on the costume for a few weeks, and I pulled an all-nighter (almost) to finish it on a moment's notice, when my wife suggested trick or treating last week instead of this week (I'd planned to work on it yesterday).  She doesn't decorate. Doesn't get pumpkins. Certainly won't carve them. The kids like all that stuff, so I do it with them. I love it, too, so it's no burden at all. I mean to mention it to further the point that she takes no real interest in the day, yet still wants to manipulate me out of the picture so she can spend it with them.  She still maintains she might not take them if she's feeling to emotional from the day in court, but even in that case doesn't want to allow me to take them.  So, my L said we'll address that in court, too. It feels silly, in some ways, but it's just more of the manipulation and deception and using the kids as a commodity. 

Sorry, that was venting.

You can put your needs first, and the needs of your kids, without being a meanie  :)

The nice thing about this board is that people understand the practical skills you need to get through these divorces, as well as the emotional and psychological mindsets that many of us have (rescuers, fixers, savers).

It's a process of coming out of the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt), and we all go through it. Over time, you'll carve out a lane where you put your kids needs and your needs first, and learn to let go your feelings of guilt or obligation. My experience is that this is often rooted in our own anxiety about how we feel when other people suffer. Even when they are selfish toward us, we seem to feel anxious to watch them suffer.

And for me, I also learned that I conflated anger with love (family of origin stuff), so when the anger reached peak levels, it felt confusing to walk the other way because anger is how people who "loved" me reacted.

Awesome job on the Halloween costumes  |iiii

Over time, your wife's effect will recede in your psyche and what she does or doesn't do will matter less. It will always hurt to see how the kids are impacted, but fortunately you can validate how they feel and help them learn they are able to process negative emotions and deal with hurt in a constructive way.

Your time with the children should most definitely be your time with the children.  That means on your time the children are where you are, not you being where they are.  Courts expect that, that's normal.  Don't let her lock you into you being a brief visitor on her turf.  That must to be non-negotiable.  There's no way the court will order her preferences unless (1) you don't stand up for yourself as parent or (2) the court is convinced you're a risk for child abuse, child neglect or child endangerment.

A lot of the financial issues are standard in a temp order.  One parent often gets child support from the other.  Maybe spousal support but you need to state at the outset that she needs to support herself, if not now then to work on it.  The parenting schedule is where dads often get hammered.  That means you need to stand up for yourself.  That's not wrong, it's necessary due to her entitlement and control attempts.

In my temp orders my ex got default temp custody and temp majority time.  I reported continuing issues but the court never changed the order.  My lawyer had told me to stay quiet and he'd fix it later.  The fix never happened until the Final Decree nearly two years later.  That was a lesson learned... .get the best temp order you can get from the very start or else risk suffering with a lousy order that may never get improved during the possibly lengthy divorce.

Hi all... .I just came from court and have a lot to do right now, but the brief update:

Financial stuff was pretty normal. Not great, but not bad, either.  Split the money that's left, split most costs in a reasonable way, and I pay child/spousal support.

On the parenting plan, my wife threw a curve ball, as I was expecting (just not sure what it would be).  She changed her work schedule from every Saturday to every other Saturday and Sunday, so she could vie for taking half of the Saturdays from me. She got it.  I was devastated and had to step out of the magistrates office for a minute with my L.  I'm convinced that was done solely out of spite. For four and a half years she's worked every Saturday and NEVER had an issue with it.  She said that her lawyer suggested the change, her lawyer smiled smugly, the magistrate looked at her lawyer and said firmly, "shame on you," and she and her lawyer just laughed. On the flip side, I was able to secure Tues and Wed nights at my place, and every other Fri and Sat night.  My wife fought the midweek overnights. She argued that there should be no midweek overnight and that I should simply come over to her place, make them dinner, and put them to bed.  The magistrate thankfully would hear nothing of it. She said, ":)ad's taking them to see his parents out of state this weekend, right? And for four days. And you say the kids have only been there once before. And you're OK with him taking the kids to a new place for four days without you. . . . They'll be fine with midweek overnights with Dad."  So I have the kids 6 of 14 nights. My L said this is very good, actually, for an early stage interim plan.  I'm still really hurt about losing the Saturdays, and going six days every other week without seeing them is going to be ... .BRUTAL... .But my L did note that my wife was very pissed about the "loss" on the midweeks, and I should take that as some form of solace, that hopefully she's beginning to see she can't just walk in and get whatever she wants.

And now we can now start chipping away with that with the GAL.  My L said, in effect, it's time for the gloves to come off. Everything I can think of to show what her and her family are like needs to be on the table. 

I feel like I'm in the battlefield and there was a blast nearby... .ears are still ringing but realizing I have to get my wits about me and keep going. 

Correction: I believe I also get Sunday nights on "my" weekend, because my wife (having changed her work schedule) won't get home until substantiall after the kids' bedtime.  So the plan for time with Dad will be:

Every week:
Tues and Wed nights

Every other week:
Fri, Sat, Sun nights

7 of 14 nights. Not bad.

This is more than "not bad." This is 50/50 time -- increasing from what was basically 0/100. FANTASTIC!

 
Is the start time specified on the midweek overnights? 

In other words, can you avoid them being dropped off at your place at bedtime and having her say she is "good" with the order.

Overall... .I see this as positive, although certainly frustrating to miss out on the Saturdays.  Hang in there.

 

FF

What we are awarded on paper sometimes changes in practice, for the better.

My ex would gift away days and never ask for them in return. Deep down I think he found parenting stressful. There was always some reason he couldn't have our son. I don't know if that's a BPD dad thing or if it applies to moms with BPD.

Ex was supposed to get Wednesday evenings from afterschool to 7pm initially, and then he went and volunteered for a town commission position that met every Wednesday.  

Meanwhile, he raged for more time in court.

But at least when you have things down on paper, you can back it up in court if it comes to that.

This is good, much better than what I lived with for over two years in my temp orders.  I had alternate 72 hour weekends from Fri 6 pm to Mon 6 pm.  And alternate Thurs evenings 6 to 9 pm.  That was literally just 22% time.

You may not get 24 hours for each overnight but it seems that many courts and even the IRS goes by counting the overnights.  That reminds me, I had a very hard time during the divorce to get my ex to share income data so we could still file the less expensive "married, joint" tax returns.  She ignored me and I had to get an extension and ended up filing in October in the last week possible for a couple years.

One mistake with taxes I made was withholding too much.  In order to get her cooperation, her income docs and signature, I had to Gift her half the refund even though all the withholding was mine.

Alternate weekends are standard in the court's view.  Sometimes workers such as doctors, nurses, police and firemen who have frequent weekend schedules get time mid-week but mostly it's alternate weekends.  That give you (and her) a weekend with the children and a weekend off for your own projects or downtime.

Be very cautious about trading time.  Always get it documented in writing emails or, these days, texts.  Sometimes you'll want time, sometimes she'll want time.  You of course would be very careful to follow the agreement.  A pwBPD, um, no so much.  In the early days of our separation my ex usually sought her time first promising me time later but then she ignored it.  So after a couple times I decided that if we traded I would get my half of the trade first since I knew I'd allow the other half.

ForeverDad
All those behaviors sound familiar. Perhaps those exact things haven't happened in my situation (yet), but none of what you said would surprise me. She's taking the kids to her parents for a week next week, and in exchange, I'm taking them to my parents this week.  It's only a four day trip, though, and the magistrate didn't feel like nitpicking over a couple extra days, so that's how it's going to stand right now. Of course my wife got in a quick dig at me with the M.  When asked why she still hasn't bought tickets yet, she was quick to answer that it was because I "haven't let [her] yet".  I have it documented several times in text that I told her I was completely fine with the trip but didn't think I should be paying for it when she was unwilling to pay for any of the kid-related expenses for my apartment.  So, now she's just going to pay it herself. Tickets are now about $400 a piece, times three travelers... .up from the normal $180 or so. Ouch.  Anyways, I understand and relate to everything you're saying. Get everything documented and be sure to have it before giving anything up.  We are ordered to use a communication portal/app in lieu of texting, email, or calls.  My wife got another dig here when asked if she was OK with that, she responded she was very much on board with it because she was tired of getting "all the mean texts" from me.  My jaw literally dropped open when she said that, but thankfully I composed myself quickly and didn't make a scene. My L commended me for that afterward and said this is good because my wife will either "cut the crap" or finally be seen for what she is. The portal is accessible by the GAL and both L's, and it logs when we log on and what messages we view, so there's full accountability here.  

livednlearned
I won't be surprised if something like this happens as well. Winter is particularly hard on my wife and I think a lot of kid things just tire her out.  When we had the big preschool argument this summer (she wanted to change my son's preschool from a great school to a mediocre school because, she claimed, it aligned better with the kids' nap schedule and would give her more 1 on 1 time with our little daughter), I eventually compromised with her and allowed the school change. Now, however, my daughter, when I ask her what she did on days my son is in preschool, she says "class!" which I know is the babysitting room at the rec. center. My wife goes to some exercise class and dumps my daughter in with the babysitter and a bunch of other kids. So much for the 1 on 1 time.  On top of that, my wife claims relocation is a must because she doesn't think you (general "you" should trust anyone but family with your kids.  She has said even an hour or two of daycare after school (when the kids are both school age) until I could pick them up when I get off work, is unacceptable. But here she's dumping our 2 y.o. in with an unqualified stranger and a bunch of random aged kids during the time she's supposed to be having focused 1 on 1 time.  Thankfully, my wife has texted most everything to me, and what she hasn't has been discussed in person and is recorded. 

FormFlier
Yes, the times for exchanges are specified.  I'm picking them up and dropping them off, so I have control of those exchanges, as well. She's on my way to and from work, so it makes sense logistically, also I think she would just see loading them in the car as too much hassle.

We also have Skype/Facetime calls locked in daily with the non-present parent. The kids really like this (my 2 y.o. daughter likes to treat me like a living doll, putting me on her lap, pushing me around in her wagon, etc. it's hilarious).  


All
I went shopping for more kid stuff tonight as something of a celebration for coming out so favorably.  I'm excited to finally have time with them, to be there for them at night when they need me. To give them that sense of security in me again. It just kills me that they haven't had that for almost nine months now.  

With my travel and her travel, it looks like their first night at my place will either be two weeks from tomorrow or the Friday that week.  

I'm so thrilled.

Thank you all for your support in this.  

You know that if there wasn't some special reason for her to travel now that she could reschedule for a couple weeks later and get better flight prices, right?  Much of what she did was posturing.  She was more focused on that than real cooperation or problem solving.

Over time you need to be the problem solver, the one to come up with practical solutions.  Not that it would mean much to her, rather, for the professionals looking over your shoulders and communications.

Hi RM,
Congratulations! That turned out really well considering you had some bad precedent set with zero overnights. So happy for you and your kids.
Weather your xw’s crazy projections/accusations - they won’t stop. Focus on your new life with your kids; it gets so much better when you have them in a space that you create with them. And the resources that you have for them goes way up when you aren’t spending half your energy negotiating or accommodating your (former) BPD spouse.

Your result gives me motivation to do more in my custody. I have accepted less than I should and will bring that to next meeting with collaborative legal team. I am pretty sure Court’s would award me 50/50 as well based on my involvement with kids after school and such

*mod*

I am locking this thread because it has reached its length limit. The post originator is welcomed to open a continuation thread on this topic.  Have a great day.