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I am curious... .no I am not feeling sorry for myself, just trying to wrap my head around things and understand more.

Or maybe a better question, Does the BPD individual ever come back to you in regards to a conflict and say that with some time to think about things they have have new and different thoughts? Like "after thinking about our fight, I think we both are wrong and the problem is XYZ instead of ZYX? Just curious if you ever find them problem solving and working for a solution on their own.

Happy Friday

Unfortunately apologies are extremely rare from my spouse, and the actual word "sorry" is incredibly triggering for her as her mother spouts off with "I'm sorry" over so many things that she has no reason to (this in my opinion is due to the uBPD of my father in law).

When she does apologize it is often loaded. Either that she is attempting to negotiate something, or actually using an "apology" to blame shift. 

Hi virtualfriday,

The first go at my relationship, I was always able to tell when my GF felt sorry but I set the standard of accepting her back and moving past issues without her ever having to say "I'm sorry". Eventually, not saying it became the norm. It was as though she assumed we had an "understanding" that I'd see she was sorry through certain things she did or how she behaved afterwards and I was expected to just let it go.  Unfortunately, after a while... ."I'm sorry" or a "now that I've had the time to process our fight... ." was all I wanted. It never came. I continued the cycle.

This time around, aside from a few bumps here and there, we are doing infinitely better. We walked back into the relationship with boundaries and expectations made very clearly. It wasnt perfect from the jump but I can say that slowly (but surely) one improvement after another had been made continuously. I've noticed that now she DOES say the words I'm sorry. Not always... .but she does. The times that she doesnt say I'm sorry she will come to me with the realizations shes made "after the fact" of an argument we've had. Surprisingly very introspective and in line with how I also processed what had happened.

I think what helped make this change aside from setting expectations/boundaries/etc from the start is the fact that I took the time to work on myself. I realized that I had spent so much time (unknowingly) invalidating her every time we fought in the past. I would JADE. I would issue ultimatums. Pretty much everything you're NOT supposed to do. One HUGE thing I learned and incorporate into our daily lives is "listening to the feeling and not the words" -- I speak only for myself when I say that has been the absolute best piece of advice I've read. By listening to the feelings, I can understand the emotion and in turn NOT invalidate her. By not invalidating her suddenly we start to have a productive conversation that leads to a happy healthy resolution.

So, in the end... .Yes, I think everyone (BPD or not) is capable of saying I'm sorry or recognizing their role in a situation. I also think everyone is capable of making up their mind that someone doesnt deserve an apology. In my situation, I didnt get an apology or any sensible organized conversation during arguments because I didnt deserve one in her eyes... .

Dont get me wrong, I'm not making excuses for the rages or any of the sorts but if I turn it around on myself... .would I want to say "Im sorry" to her or anyone if I felt invalidated during the ordeal?

Not suggesting you invalidate and/or are at all the cause... .just sharing MY experience and revelation in relation to my relationship.

Yes, but timing is dependent on the situation.

The extent of BPD rage/outburst is proportional to the time it takes for an apology. The worse my W disregulates, the more embarrassed and humiliated over the behavior she feels, and the longer it takes to work up the courage to apologize for her actions.

For many with BPD:

apology = "my behavior was wrong"

"my behavior was wrong" = "I am wrong"

therefore:

apology = I am wrong"

They have great difficulty separating doing bad and being bad.
 

I had never gotten an apology except something like I am sorry you made me do that.
After she left me I got a ton of apologies for different stupid things. I took it as a sign that we were headed towards a recycle.
Luckily I went NC before then.

One thing that stood out to me when we were dating, she told me she is never sorry for anything. She would never apologize because she was living her life without regrets.

Now I see that as a red flag. It was at that time her way of coping with her own self hatred.

My current GF is so cute. She will say, I was sorry I was being a jerkface. LOL she has no idea how much it means to me to hear a sincere apology.

Apologize, that is what good people do right?

Yes.  But we've been together 21 years, and I've been reading on this site for 10.  We still (and will always) have issues.  He will always have meltdowns, they may be less in intensity and in the number of times a year they happen, but they still happen, come out of left field, and suck during.

We have almost a routine, now, of how it usually works, over 1-3 days. 
1.  He loses it.  It may be any time of day, usually, it's at a tike his blood sugar is low, or he's feeling particularly tired/sick.  Or all of the above. 

2.  So he rages.  I try to get out of the house, sometimes I can't.  If it's during work hours, usually due to not responding to a text, the cycle may last a little longer.

3. Finally, relief at entering the silent treatment.  It's still not fun at all, but at least I can collect myself and mostly be left alone.  Silent treatment to me is far better than being yelled at and having someone stomp around.  This can last a few hours to a day or two.  I can process my own feelings, think about what I may have actually done versus what he perceived, and see if I need to change things or if this was not about me at all, just his inability to cope with things. 

4.  During the silent treatment, I act mostly normal.  I say good morning and good night.  I don't press too much for conversation, I may send one or two silly photos via a messenger if we are both at work to test the waters and to soften his heart a little.

5.  Eventually, by quiet observation, I pick a moment to simply hug him.  Usually, he's like, "why would you hug me, I don't deserve it."  Sometimes the actual words, "I'm sorry" come out."  Sometimes not.

The more I try to understand his BPD, the better it seems to be able (usually) to try to not let his comments sink in and hurt so much.  I don't know how to explain it - it may just be my disassociation as a coping skill from childhood is a little like ScotchGuard on my, that allows his words to bead up and drip off instead of soaking into me deeply where they would hurt.

And there is that unhealthy shame of "I am a bad person" instead healthy guilt over "I did something wrong".

I get that often from my wife.

No, I don't get apologies.  At times I will get a hint of contrition and some modified behaviour - like no drinking for a day or two (my uBPDw drinks a fair bit).  But I never hear - "I am sorry, I shouldn't have said/done that".

Apologies were rare here (we're separated).

My husband used to say the same thing, "I'm a bad husband and father." If I hugged him, he'd accuse me of putting him down. If I said, "We all fail," he'd say that I was minimizing.

I finally got that it was a shame thing that I couldn't do anything about.

Huh ... .that's really insightful.  I get avalanches of apologies after (some) of my partner's breakdowns/rages, and your post makes so much sense as to what they're really about.

I get apologies quite frequently. I didn't in the past though.

I've noticed the apologies began to become more frequent when I would admit my part in the conflict, but even more so when I would honestly and calmly tell him how he hurt me. When I stopped walking on egg shells I felt more free to say hard things to my H.

When he is upset I always validate if possible and if he keeps going and gets mean I will say something like :

I feel like you're just saying that because you're hurt and want to hurt e
That's mean
That's abusive
I don't like it when ... .
That hurt my feelings when... .

I don't get the apology right away but after he has time to calm down and reflect on the situation. Other times he won't apologize for what he was angry about but for getting overly angry.

And when he apologizes I tell him thank you. It means a lot to me and that he is forgiven. Only once or twice have I said "Thank you. It means a lot to me but I'm really hurt and I need a little longer to move on from this. I still love you but I just need a little time."

Nope.  No matter how bad things were (he has physically threatened me in the past), he would not apologise.  And if I try to bring it up, then it will either be a case of him rewriting history (I provoked him so much that he had to do xyz, then he would go about describing how I was wrong), or him saying I like to bring up the past (projection, projection... .I almost never do.  I bring out the past because he was talking about a certain episode and I had to "remind" him how it got to that). 

In any case, I don't remember he has ever apologised for anything he has done, even in the "sorry BUT you did xyz" sense.

Oh @isilme!
Thank you so much for your comments here. I've been in a very loving relationship with my uBPDbf for over a year now. He tends to become disregulated about every 2 weeks for approximately 1-3 days. After months of disjointed attempts to understand him with his BPD, reading several books, and joining this forum, I too have started to recognize that this routine seems to work for us VERY WELL. It's not always easy, but WOW thank you for summarizing it so perfectly. I feel like printing this on an index card and keeping it in my wallet as a daily reminder and mantra.

I love my uBPDbf very much, more so than any man I've ever been in a relationship with.
I don't always need to hear the words "I'm sorry" from him, thought I've explained to him that those two words really do go a long way and carry a lot of weight. So, while he doesn't always apologize with the actual words "I'm sorry", by the time we get to Step 5, his acceptance of my touch (hug, squeeze, caress) is kind of his way of saying he is sorry. His letting me back in is in a way his silent admission that he was (probably) wrong and went off the map somewhere. It's not the perfect ending to an episode, but it's good enough for me if it means we're back to a peaceful existence and things are back to normal. Until the next episode... .

Great topic, virtualfriday. I don't believe I've welcomed you to our family before, so welcome!  So glad you found us!


Good for you! This is a positive place to be - open and understanding.  |iiii

In my circumstance, I've found apologies to be occasional, but sincerity, genuine remorse, and taking steps toward real amends, to be absent about 90% of the time.  Like Cole stated:
The shame response tends to be so overwhelming in pwBPD, that they cannot separate exhibiting a "bad" behavior from being an entirely "bad" person. There seems to be no gray areas. Only black & white.

I had a convo with my BPDh literally 1 hour ago, where I tried to express to him how insincere his apology to me was last night. He could not comprehend. His thought process, and expression to me was "Hey, What do you want? I SAID I'm sorry."

I've learned to tailor my apology/remorse expectations to the severity of the situation. Didn't put his socks in the hamper? I'll dismiss. Told me a huge lie? We need to talk.

I've learned to pick my battles.

My uexBPD\NPDh has never apologized to me. Even when he realizes and admits he shouldn't have said or done something, he then tells me (in writing) that I don't deserve an apology from him for whatever reason. I'm really tired of his self-righteousness. Yet he expects me to near constantly repeatedly apologize for every single perceived wrong I've ever done to him including my existence. The last one is how it feels at times.

"Apologies" are a culture nurtured into a relationship. Just like "I love yous" are a culture nurtured into a relationship... .If you don't nurture this culture, you don't have it.

I have a friend in a relationship who doesn't give or receive presents. As a couple, they had great expectations and hurt feelings, and then it just became the norm - no gifts.

You can change the culture, but it takes work.

My BPDH has never initiated an apology.  When either I or our counselor/therapist have confronted him about relationship damaging behavior (rages, physical abuse, verbal abuse, lying, deceit), all I’ve ever gotten from him was more anger and rage, his silence, his walking away, or what I consider fake apologies where he rationalizes his behavior or blame shifts.  His most common “apologies” are:

Maybe I shouldn’t have said/done that but I was justified (he’s never been able to verbalize what his justification was but my best guess is that it’s a feelings are facts kind of thing triggered by something in his past).
I’m sorry but that’s not what I said/did.
I’m sorry but you misunderstood/misheard/don’t understand me. 
I’m sorry but you’re the one who needs to apologize.
 
In all of our years of marriage I’ve never received a sincere apology where he expressed regret or contrition for what he did or said or genuinely expressed a desire for reconciliation.  And his “fake” apologies have never resulted in any changes in his attitude or behavior.

It’s hard for all of us to apologize.  To apologize means to take responsibility and be accountable for the things we’ve said and done and the hurt we’ve inflicted on others. It also puts the onus on us to rectify what we’ve done and seek reconciliation.  I’m sure the internal confusion over being wrong=being a bad person is the driving force for my husband’s self-protective denial.   It’s so sad that the things that would be most liberating for him and healing for him and our relationship are what he rejects the most. 

I understand the underlying conditions that drive him and his need to be validated, but that doesn’t change the reality of having to live and deal with an extremely difficult relationship.

yes - after a rant and rave she will often come later and say I'm sorry do you forgive, I was awful, wrong etc

ha ha - until next time which could be just 1 minute from the apology and as I try to defend myself from missiles, cups of water etc I will say hold on - what happened to your apology?

I got many apologies. They were either retracted later or denied outright or he justified his bad acts. A real apology involves making amends and that involved admitting being in the wrong and harming another and that is to shameful. So around the circle we go again.

I went back and re-read the posts here since this has been coming up lately with my ex.  Every so often he demands an apology for something I've already apologized for long ago. I refuse to keep apologizing.

bananas2, you wrote

That makes a lot of sense to me. It makes me wonder if that is why my ex is so adamant and condescending when something like this happens. He's probably projecting his own shame onto me making me a "bad" person for anything I did to wrong him regardless if I apologized or not. I've lost count of how many times he's told me that he's "just trying to help me be a better person". He kept trying to change me and I refused to let him.

amazingcharis, what you wrote resonates with me as well. Your BPDH sounds like my uexBPD\NPDh. He did the same type of thing during our marriage and he still does it (even more so) now that we're divorced.  I seem to be his favorite scapegoat/enemy. I'll be the first to admit it's extremely difficult for me to sincerely apologize to him due to his extremely condescending nature. That and I refuse to apologize when it feels forced and/or I don't feel I should apologize (i.e., I didn't do anything wrong). It's only him, though. I have no problems sincerely apologizing to others when it's warranted.

Sometimes I get apologies, but it seems to be more of a matter of that is what should be done to end it rather than a real understanding of what the apology is really for. That is the acceptance is only partial or distorted.

I too find that a simple hug without saying anything works better as it doesn't slip into the realm of blame portioning, or shifting.

I also get the sacrificial apology or confession. That is owning up for killing a lamb when they have actually massacred the whole flock. In essence a distraction as to the extent of the behaviour.

At the end of the day the words dont mean much to me, if the lesson is never learnt, and it is used for no more purpose than to expunge the behaviour and getting a clean sheet. ie A lack of residual regret

That's the whole point - what's the value in an an apology when the next storm is just around the corner.

*mod*

It's important that we keep threads on this board to be action oriented and avoid hand wringing without constructive advice. This is not a comment for all posts, but quite a few in this thread. Please be mindful. 

Should I use "Improving" or the "Conflicted Board": The "Improving an Ongoing Relationship" board is for members looking to solve specific relationship problems, to be coached on the use of relationship tools, and to examine their role in relationship conflict.

The "Conflicted or Just Tolerating a Relationship" board is for those seeking some emotional support and coping skills, but are not motivated for problem solving or learning relations tools at this time - or who are conflicted about staying in the relationship.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56303.0

The point is not to overvalue any aspect which is not the norm. This is one of the reasons we get drawn away from a realistic balanced view of the relationship out of wishful thinking. It is part of accepting that this is the way these relationships go. In other words we can be slow learners too if we allow delusions to drive our hopes.

Take it for what it is rather than chasing  symbolic gestures because they have greater meaning to us than the other person. If something is not part of someones psychological make up, then trying to make it so can create more conflict than it resolves.

Hence the hug means more than the words, and is more effective

Knowing just how hard getting to a point where ANY apology can be made, even one that is 50% lip service, makes it mean something.  BPD is tied a lot to shame avoidance.  What can be more shameful than apologizing?  Also, that sounds a bit like my H when he's dysregulating himself - "you're just going to mess up and make me mad again, so what good is your apology?" 

Everyone is human, everyone will mess up - I (and our SOs) can only be sorry for things I have done, and only with respect to the magnitude of my own involvement in things that went wrong.  I say something thoughtless or directly hurt someone, I need to apologize.  I can't apologize for the weather and n longer feel I NEED to apologize for things like that.  I validate that he is upset, but do not own any blame for it. 

Throw in the fact that many of the people we are with can disassociate from what they are saying and doing, it's hard to expect a repentant, I-will-never-do-this-again apology from someone who prolly blacked out a bit halfway through the rage.

waverider says it well - we need to honestly look at what we can expect NOW from our disordered loved one.  We need to stop hoping they will magically improve and decide if we can be content with the best they can offer in their current emotional state.  Things CAN improve, but your partner will ALWAYS have BPD.  Even with the best therapy, even the most perceptive person, those nature/nurture hardwired instincts are in there, and the perfect storm can bring Mr. Hyde out to play when conditions are "right". 

We need to decide if we can accept what they can give.  Our relationships will never be seen by others as 50/50.  But relationships are really supposed to be 100 of what I can do and 100 of what he can do.  If what he can do is limited compared to me, I have to accept that if I am to love and live with him.  And so his 100 might simply be going to work and managing his temper, learning to manage stress.  Mine might be going to work, cooking, cleaning, paying bills, validating his off-kilter emotions as possible, remembering birthdays, pet care, house care, yard care, etc.  He is disabled... .his emotions are not regulated the same way.  I should get no more mad at his emotions being out of whack than his blood sugar.  Even trying to manage his sugar these days, when he is honestly trying, his liver will decide it's time to dump more glucose into this bloodstream, just because, and it throws things off.  I imagine his serotonin and basic emotions are in a similar vein.

As the more emotionally stable person, as the more equipped person to make changes to ourselves, we look inside to see how WE can improve things, how WE can stop making them worse, remove ourselves from harm's way, and how WE can accept what we can't change.  We can't expect a person with a toddler level of coping skills to act like an adult.  They CAN leanrm it can be worked on, but it really is a long-haul proposition.

@isilme You've hit it on the nail again with such a level-headed interpretation of what the role of the nonBPD partner might be. Just yesterday my uBPDbf spun out iover something, screaming at me via text, cursing at me, calling me names etc. Instead of JADEing I just observed this behavior much like one would when a toddler throws himself down on the floor in a tantrum in the middle of the supermarket. It's embarrassing, humiliating, but he can't help himself and can't control his emotions, as much as he can't control his blood sugar, as you pointed out. His outburst hardly affected me this time (except for the profound sadness I now feel for him because he is in so much pain all the time, which I've now come to understand so much better since being in this forum.) And as you say, we  nonBPDs are indeed more stable and therefore better equipped to assess the situation for what it is and figure out ways to respond (or not respond) as needed so that we won't escalate the situation, or increase his shame and fear.

Back to the topic at hand, ":)o you ever get an apology", I've mentioned earlier in this thread that mainly the end-of-crisis-hug seals the deal, allows us to move on. I've learned to accept that and not expect to hear the actual words, especially if it's tainted with a tone that signifies he's not really meaning it. He may not actually be sorry in every single case, but the hug kind of says "thank you for putting up with my bullsh*t" because he is aware of the hurricane that's happening inside him. He knows he's been out of control, I think it brings his so much shame that apologizing, admitting to it, is all too real and it scares the crap out of him. So hugs will do, and I welcome them every time.

@vertualfriday,
I almost never get an apology from my uBPDh, it has never been a part of his repertoire. Judging by the behaviour that follows his blow ups, I can tell that he is ashamed and self punished himself by staying in uncomfortable accommodations, going without food for a long time and being quiet and withdrawn. I can’t help but think, that in some way I’m also “not exactly inviting” an apologetic behaviour. On some level I’m waiting for his apology to justify my feelings of helplessness and victimization by him. Perhaps, it’s another factor for his not being forthcoming. Although recieving the apology would be amazing. I no longer wait for it to come, as I know that the part of me wanting him to apologizes is my ego and a wounded self esteem.
Skip Mentioned that “apologies” like anything in a learnt behaviour, would you mind elaborating on it? I would really love to hear on the steps I could take to hopefully invite a positive change into my relationships

Waverider, I'm seriously going to print this out and find somewhere to put it where I will see it every day but my husband won't. Maybe tape it to the inside cover of my Bible!
This is exactly what I need to remind myself every day, and SUCH wisdom! Thank you!

Yes.  H is aware of the hurricane, and a few weeks back, even though I thought little of it, we had a bad moment in a store out of town.  He got agitated at me for asking a question thinking aloud, that I answered for myself mid-sentence.  It made him feel self-conscious somehow for me to ask a question and then ask him to dismiss it as I'd figured it out, but he was on edge and the dysregulation was close to the surface.  After a few tense minutes, it was done, and to my surprise, when I said, "I answered myself, why are you not letting me drop it?  There is no discussion here, but you are insisting on pointing out how I was dumb to ask a question that I already admitted was not the way to do something?", he actually dropped it.  He snapped past it in a very short time for him, and I was just happy it was a less-than-10-minute thing, not an all day thing and moved past it.  An hour later, at lunch, he was beating himself up for losing his temper in the store.  In the past, that could have ruined the whole day, and the whole drive home. 

After 21 years, we are finally at a place where I feel okay, in calm periods, talking to him a little about things that years back would have been impossible.  I've had to learn how to be a better partner to him, and he is trying, even with the BPD, diabetes and almost crippling social anxiety, to be a better partner to me.  I have stopped looking at the relationship I thought we "should" have, and am working on the one we DO have.  And looking at all our friends, NO relationship I can see is 50/50.  One person seems to be more laid back, more stable, and the other seems to be the more emotional one.  BPD just makes being the emotional one a higher magnitude of drama to dea with.

I'm glad you're at this point. The key is that you're both trying and are comfortable with where you are.

Wow I am back, I like all the reply's and conversations I started.

I got one a few weeks ago from my wife on a very important relationship issue and it melted my heart, it charged my batteries up to full capacity giving me the energy to be stronger and giving me even more determination to make things work.

I then attempted to explain to my wife how much it meant to me to hear and feel her apology and how much I greatly appreciated her actions... .which just made her feel bad and sulk   welcome to opposite world

Apologies only mean something if they are genuine and real, a negotiated apology is completely worthless to me

Apologies from my uBPD/uNPD H are very rare, and only when he gets a glimpse of empathy.  The regret lasts for only a short period of time until his next trigger dysregulation, and then he is off and raging again, and denouncing every aspect of me. 

Usually the triggers that set him off deal with control issues, such as spotless housekeeping or meals not cooked on his schedule, or projecting his bad feelings about other family members (son who is an alcoholic, father who is uNPD, etc.)  I suspect a lot of it deals with his very fragile self-esteem.  His ego "skin" is very thin, and I suspect it stems from his childhood and uNPD father.

Back on the roller coaster!