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I recently found out my girlfriend was cheating on me with 2 different guys or maybe even more, but I still love her so much.

There were so many red flags that I pushed away or simply ignored because I was in love with girl... .

When I first met her I fell in love straight away. She was exactly my type. she had a fiancé at the time but we had sex the first night and met each other nearly everyday night. The first red flag was she wasn't breaking up with her fiancé. I told her that she needed to tell him because it wasn't right. I found out that she had a boyfriend before me whom she was also cheating on her fiancé with. So for the next month I kept telling her to tell the fiancé about us. He lived in another state so was completely clueless. I had a feeling she was monkey branching with me and him. Finally at my insistence she broke up with him a month later... .

After the first 6 months we had an argument about our future, she wanted to marry but it was too soon for me, we both decided to take a break for a couple of weeks, but not break up… A few weeks later on my birthday she didn’t meet me though and didn’t answer my phone calls. The next morning she said she was drinking with female coworkers but I had a really strong gut feeling that something wasn’t right. Slowly she trickle truthed me. She was drinking with girls but there was one guy there and they kissed but that was all. When I pushed for more information she went crazy calling me paranoid and a horrible person for trying to make her admit something she hadn’t done. My gut feeling wouldn't quit so I kept pushing for the truth, where she said she would kill herself if I asked any more questions... .Then I found out they had sex but he raped her on her friends couch when her friends were sleeping. Finally after a month of guy feelings and pushing for the truth I found out that there were no female friends at all and she met this guy as a date and it was consensual sex. She said it was a mistake and the guy only used her for a one night stand, so like a fool I took her back because at the time I knew she was suffering from depression... .

Around the same time as all this drama was going on I see she is talking to a guy on her phone before she can delete it. Alarm bells are going off and my gut is doing Red Alert. Again I push for the truth, she tells me I'm crazy and horrible and then one month later after lots of fighting and trickle truth she admits that they had sex but it was really rape or so she says, even though she went to his house alone.
I really loved her so much and all the lies have really messed me up mentally and physically so I continue the relationship because she says she will kill herself if “I throw her away”.

Fast forward to her birthday, I buy her a diamond bracelet. The next day I surprise her at her apartment, she tries to hide her phone. I see she is talking to another different guy. She tells me he is just a friend though and he lives in another country so it's just friendship. However, I find out they've been doing sexual talk. I forgive her and one month later she finally blocks and deletes him from her Facebook.

I really love her a lot and things really start to improve in our relationship. She is being "open and honest" but I really still can't trust her at all. But I'm trying really hard because every time we fight or argue she threatens suicide because I've thrown her away... .

For about 6 months our relationship is great. Everything is perfect. I'm thinking about proposing to her.


Fast forward to our 2 year anniversary and we have another big arguement because she receives a text from a guy, who I later learn is just an old friend from high school, she is really angry at me for acting like that on our 2 year anniversary date and we take time apart again to rethink our relationship…

A few days later my gut instinct starts to go crazy again. I ask her about it but she calls me crazy and paranoid again. We argue really bad for a long time. She says she hates me for not believing her. She goes on holiday with family a week later and the whole time my gut instinct is going haywire, I’m really depressed I don’t know what to do. I call her on the holiday and accuse her of talking to other guys on Facebook and lying about it. She ignores me for the rest of her holiday. When she comes back from the holiday there are 2 guys, both friends from the holiday destination on her Facebook. I ask her about this and she calls me a crazy paranoid stalker and self harms because I'm making her crazy with accusations... .By this time I’m really mentally depressed and wondering whether she is right. Maybe the first two times she lied and cheated have damaged me and made me paranoid…

Still my gut intuition is telling me something is seriously wrong because she is really cold after the holiday. Things get a little better and we try and patch things up. She tells me she is going to a BBQ in the city next to ours at a coworkers house where she stays the night… red flag but I ignore it because I love her and she has got me thinking that I’m crazy. Her Facebook is completely blocked but I know she is online on messenger every night so I know she is chatting with someone… we argue when I ask her about it and we break up… at this time she unblocks me on Facebook and I see she has added a guy from the same city as her coworkers BBQ one month before the BBQ. I do a bit more Facebook investigation and find that she doesn't know anyone in that city except this guy. I ask her about it and she denies ever even talking to him on Facebook. I believe her but still believed she cheated with one of the guys from her holiday, my gut instinct is going even crazier and has never been wrong, so after a few drinks I contact one of the guys from her holiday and ask him why he is contacting my girlfriend. He says that he never did anything with her and he was just the coach driver on one of her tours, but if she has cheated before I should just move on because cheaters never change. She finds out because I admit to her what I've done and she goes crazy and says she never wants to see me again.

My gut instinct was wrong and I feel terrible and awful… I beg for forgiveness… we finally make up and I ask her to just tell me the truth because I love her. She denies ever even contacting the other city guy and I believe her stupidly and says she isn't talking to any guys and there is nothing with the holiday guys. We start to hang out again. Dating a little. She is really cold and distant and is always checking her phone or looking at her watch. I feel that because of my stupid paranoid behavior I've lost the love of my life.

But I still feel deep down that she has lied but she swears to god that she has been honest, so I really start to believe that I am going crazy and paranoid. She says she needs time to recover from what I've done to her. She says she loves me but is not in love with me anymore. I tell her I love her and that we can make it work.

One day she doesn't answer any of my emails so I go to her apartment to see her. In her room she tries to hide her phone and I see messages from the other guy from the holiday( the one I didn't contact because I thought he wasn't her type) and I also see her quickly delete messages from the guy in the other city that she swore to god she had never even contacted, aswell as many other texts from guys that she had previously sworn she never contacted before.

At this point I walk away and don’t look back… I don’t want to wait months to find out she slept with these guys because I already know the answer. And as soon as I walked away my gut instinct went back to sleep…

But still I went back. Even though she admitted to sending sexual pictures and videos to those guys because she was lonely. Even though she had started a LDR with one of those guys. I still went back because I loved her and she faded me out and blocked me all over again. Silent treatment all over again... .

I can’t believe I could be so wrong about her. I thought she was my soulmate but now I don’t know what was a lie and what was real... .
Even after all the compulsive lying and cheating I still feel like I want her back because the good times were so amazing... .But I also know she will never stop lying and she always lies directly to my face with no hesitation whatsoever which really hurts... .and she has moved on now with another guy and probably painted me black because the last time I texted her I said she never really loved me because she couldn’t stop lying and cheating... .She said she wanted me back even though she had started a LDR with this other guy... .
I’m so confused and only on 7 days NC so far but I want answers that I know she will never give or can’t give... .

Sorry for the length of this post. Thank you for reading and thank you for any advice... .

Great caption. What was real?
I wonder that every day since my breakup with my exBPD.
You will get great advice here.
My only experience close to yours is NC.
Trust me , it's tough, but you need to keep it up in order for you to heal and move on.
I didn't adhere to it and it just made matters worse.
I don't want to confuse you with my distorted facts other than making contact feeds her power and control over you. Evidently, that feeds the "supply" of the BPD.
Good luck!

The thing is I’m apprehensive about NC, because I don’t want her to think I have abandoned her... .I want some kind of answers or closure from her... .

Right, first off you need to stop worrying about abandoning this girl. That's step 1. She deserves to be abandoned. She isn't a victim, she is manipulating you into feeling that way.

Now, the following is hard. I've been through this, as have many others on here. I am 6 months out, and I wish I had implemented this from the start.

The next step is to dig hard and find your self-respect because you have lost it, or had it taken from you by her. Note: She will not want to be with you if you show her that you want to be with her.

She wants what she cannot have and you making yourself available is not attractive to her.

Also, she knows that she has treated you badly, and every single time you forgive her and go back to her, she loses a bit more respect for you. This is sadly very true. You must take control of yourself, and let her know that you will not be a punching bag for her abuse.

My advice for moving forward is this:

Maintain no contact. Stay strong. Whatever you do DO NOT CONTACT HER (not when you're drunk, not when you're down, not when you're up, never - I cannot emphasise the importance of this point enough), doing so will instantly lose you respect in her eyes and push her away - its backwards, but so is she. If you still have an huge urge to be with someone who has treated you with such little respect, then you wait, and if, and ONLY if, she contacts you, then if you truly want to try again, then you can respond.

If you do choose to respond then you MUST do so with the following rule: This is her LAST chance. You must fully commit to that, otherwise the abuse will continue, and it will get worse, until she eventually gets bored, and she will walk away from you without ever looking back. Believe that. You will be left traumatised for months, or longer. It's her last chance if you do go back, and you have to commit to that and be the one to walk away if things don't change, however much that breaks your heart.

I would recommend that you start setting some serious boundaries. The first one is that she apologises to you for what she has done, and I mean properly apologise. She should not just say sorry, but she should say what she is sorry for, and completely own up and take responsibility for her previous actions. "I am sorry for having lied to you about [insert guys name], I feel truly terrible for it, and I will now commit myself to making it up to you" - that's the level of apology you're looking for, and you then need to be vigilant for her actually following through with her promise to make it up to you. If she doesn't, walk away, after all it's her last chance.

You have to have a frank conversation, which you must go into confidently and fully aware of your own feelings, needs, and wants. Take the time to genuinely think about yourself and how you feel in this relationship before you do anything, I would suggest that if you really think about it, you will realise that this relationship makes you feel awful. Do not compromise on your wants and needs if you do meet her.

You are a human being and you deserve to be treated with respect, right? The way you're acting is telling her that you don't care about being completely disrespected, and whatever she does you'll still go back to her. She enjoys playing with you because she knows this, shes been testing you so much with these other guys, and she can't believe what she can get away with with you. The only way you will be able to have a future with this girl without being abused is if you can change that. And that means showing her that you will not stand for abuse, you will not accept cheating, you will not be disrespected. And if you are, then there are other people on this earth who are more deserving of your affection and time.

It is extremely difficult to make this work. History repeats itself in these situations, and things usually get worse. Knowing what I do now, if I was you I would do the EXTREMELY hard thing of saying to yourself, "It makes me so sad. I wanted it to work with this girl so badly, but tragically because of her behaviour towards me, she gave me no option but to walk away, it's not what I wanted, it's what I had to do, and it broke my heart.", and then block her completely out of your life. It will be the hardest thing you've ever done. You'll need many many months, certainly the best part of a year to go a day without thinking about her. But it is a better option than continuing the abuse, and waiting for her to eventually kick you out of your life, paint you black, call you a psycho and destroy you without a care.

Good luck

Elmurr
That's the best advice I've seen post breakup.
I wish I would have adhered to that strategy 3 mos. ago and not let her occupy space in my head.
It's been a struggle to get rid of my feelings that she might come back into my life.
Thank you for the encouragement and I cut and pasted your post to print and read as often as I need to and move on.

beezleconduit, I'm glad it helped.

It is the most painful experiences in life that teach us the most.

If a BPD breakup is not the definitive answer to the question, "What is it going to take for you to learn?", then nothing will be. (Original poster take note of that.)

And that is not to say that we weren't the greatest boyfriends/husbands ever to walk the earth, though we almost inevitably did somethings wrong. Or that we were too nice, or too bad. It's irrelevant. So too are the woulda, shoulda, couldas, and what-ifs. If you were too nice, you were an enabler. If you were too bad, you were a provoker. Neither work.

The only thing that works is mutual respect. It is the crucial ingredient to a successful relationship. If you respect your partner despite them cheating on you, then you demonstrate that you do not respect yourself, and in turn lead your partner to do the same; this is not specific to BPD, it is human nature: you respect those who inspire you. If your partner cheats on you, or abuses you, then if you have self respect, you will leave. And your partner, whilst upset, will respect you for it. Lostinanother, can you see your problem here?

Your ONLY failing (all of our only failings), is that you did not actively ask yourself, "What is it going to take for me to choose respect, to regain sight of my own needs, wants, and feelings, to stand up for what I know and believe to be right, to stop being a puppet. What is going to take for me to say, 'enough is enough' and to take control, and finally walk away?". If serial cheating is not enough, then you make your bed and you must sleep in it.

Many of the people on here, myself included, failed to take that stand. We now feel like the victims of abusive exes. And we are, but only because we allowed ourselves to be.

By being party to a BPD discard, we automatically enrol ourselves on a crash course of self reflection. And the lessons learnt on this course will serve us incredibly well for the rest of our lives. They are lessons that we all clearly needed to learn. Those that do not take this course due to denial, are doomed to repeat the abusive cycle for all of time.

On this course we will learn about our own failings, what we did wrong, how to be different in the future, what we truly want from a relationship, what love actually is, and about how to respect both ourselves, and others. These are incredibly important lessons and ones that will make you better set to have a stable, loving relationship in the future.

Believe that everything happens for a reason. If you do not believe this, then your recovery will be much harder. The reason that you are here, hurting, is because you had fundamental floors in your ability to stand up for yourself. Through this experience, these floors are mended, and a vital lesson about respect is learnt. And it is in this that we can find our closure.

With time, you will ultimately come to the realisation that you are a better person for this. And within that realisation, you will find your peace.

Thank you for the amazing advice.

Since I first posted she came back to me.
She insists she wants to just be friends now even though I have pushed towards a sexual relationship again, however she isn’t interested and I think she is in a relationship with the replacement now even though she says they are still friends. She has 4 guys orbiting her now... .

I don’t know why she just wants to be friends? What’s the point in keeping me around when she says I just hurt her?

I’ve also pointed out to hurt that I have clearly been replaced and that I don’t like it but she says she doesn’t know what she wants but she wants me in her life because I’m her soulmate even though she is dedicating all her time to this replacement while at the same time putting me 2nd and calling me her soulmate... .
she’s just keeping me hanging which she denies but still... .

Mate you can do better than her! She's keeping you around so she can dip back in incase it doesn't work with the other guys. It's narcissistic. Please please please get off the emotional rollercoaster and walk away for good. Don't even tell her you're doing it, just block, delete, block, delete until all is quiet. You have strong feelings for this girl, if you didn't you would not be on this site. You're going to get seriously hurt if you cling on to the hope that she'll come back. You don't want her. You may not realise it now, but you don't.

The only situation I can see in which you could continue being a puppet to this girl is if you have NO (and I mean zero) emotional attachment to her. That's not the case.

Please walk away now.

Thanks for the advice.
I guess I am very torn because I know that she is poison for me but I do love her and she miscarried my child previously, which she is still really damaged about... .so I feel I owe it to her even though she lies and uses me... .

I feel like a crack addict

Have you ever read the acronym FOG - Fear, Obligation, Guilt?

You fear being alone. So she keeps you hooked.

You feel obligated to stay with her for various reasons (miscarriage being one). She'll make sure you're reminded of the reasons regularly.

You feel guilty for [enter guilty item] - this would go oon I expect so you can filll the blank in here.

Do you not think that if you were sleeping with other people you'd feel extreme guilt and shame? Well she doesn't! What does that scream at you?... .you're being manipulated!

Read this: https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog

You know what's right.

Lostinanother (your name says it all), I want to add something important: it is often the hardest decisions that are the most important to make. The decisions that make us hurt, cry, feel depressed. Breaking free from a heroin addiction makes the addict feel awful. But it has to be done. It's easy to keep shooting up, but it'll cost you your life.

Take this simple definition of addiction and see if it relates to your relationship with this girl: Addiction: the inability to stop doing something despite knowing that it is bad for you.

This girl is your drug. She knows it. You know it.

You have two choices: 1, choose compassion for yourself and walk away and take all the hurt that goes with it now in order to live a better life in the long term or 2, remain and become a broken man.

You will find another girl. Maybe not in 6 months, maybe not in 2 years. But you WILL find her. She is waiting for you and she will love you.

At the moment you fear being alone. You need to do the work on yourself and spend time being content on your own. Do it now. There is no better time. You aren't getting any younger.

Yeah I decided you’re right. I’ve had enough of all the blame and the lies and always chasing after her when she runs away with another guy.
I’ve known for a long time this relationship was poison but I’ve been kept in it due to trying to trying to protect her from self and the way that she would give me whatever I wanted wherever and whenever I wanted... .but that’s in the past now as she has said if she does anything sexual with me it will hurt her as she thinks I can’t commit, even though I’ve never ever given her reason to believe that.

We just argued on the phone. She said she’s tired of me and moved on. Talking about the the replacement like he is a new piece of furniture for her apartment, which fits her needs more than I ever could now... .I said she would always be single because she can’t keep any relationships... .she said some pretty nasty, heartless things and hung up... .

Painted blacked again... .

That finally makes moving on so much easier... .

Life is too short to spend on a woman who is so cold and heartless.

Elmer,

Did you have a similar situation to me?

It sounds like you’re speaking from experience... .

Reading that brought back much of the pain I felt when I would try to talk to my ex during the break up. I've been where you are and I'm telling you from experience, do not contact her. I honestly cannot reiterate that enough.

The more you try the more aggressive and hurtful she will become until you finally stop / have a breakdown. She's on a different page to you now. It hurts, we all know. She's been working towards this for a while, it's called devaluation. Maybe you noticed the signs and ignored them, but either way she's further along the line than you are, much further. But you'll learn a lot from this, and you will be better at tackling life's problems in the future.

That was the last time you will ever speak to her. Tell yourself that. Accept it. And stand by it.

Now begins the hard part: moving on.

Please don't cause yourself any more pain. It's been six months for me and I still think about her all the time, but it IS easier.

Right now, and for many months, you will think you will never get over her. That you will never want anyone else.

This takes time. And by time I mean months if not years.

My best advice is to try to not worry about what she's feeling or if she cares, you need to be concerned only about yourself. If it's taking you months of suffering while she's completely fine, then it hurts, but try to not think about it, take as much time as you need. And, very importantly, look to forgive her. Holding on to the hate is what caused me the most pain.

For me the recovery timescale has been like this:

Months 1/2 : utter despair, confusion, heartbreak, denial, hopelessness, anxiety, sleepless nights, depression, thinking I'm going crazy. cPTSD symptoms and huge environmental triggers, even covering the whole of central and north London where she works and lives, can't even go on the entire Northern Line because it caused immense anxiety. Cannot go even 5 minutes without thinking about her, no exceptions. Go out and meet other girls, but feel like breaking down because they aren't her. Spend hours reading up on relationships online (this is continuous up until about month 5).

Month 2: Broke NC. We spoke over email, she asked about getting back together, then flipped out again a few hours later. Told me she had a weak moment and that she will always hate me and to just get over it.

Months 2/3: exactly the same as months 1-2 because of the contact. Seriously struggling in life now. Dated a girl for a bit but ended up  just talking about her, not fair on the new girl at all. Stopped seeing her.

Months 3/4: slow improvement, depression continues, confusion, ruminating, trying to make sense of it. Could probably go half an hour without thinking about her. Beginning to think I can survive on my own and can just relax a bit about being alone and living without her, but that's intermittent.

Months 4/5: still depressed, but managing a bit better. Can focus on other activities, but she'd always creep in. Can go 1-2 hours without thinking about her at most.

Months 5/6: can work on other things without thinking about her. Can go out with friends and enjoy myself, and sometimes actually be like "wow, I just realised I haven't thought about her for hours".

Month 6: I'm alright. Bumped into her mum which rocked me massively. Beginning to find forgiveness. Beginning to understand things. Can go out for an entire evening and not think about her at all sometimes. It still hurts, massively, but not so much as it did. I can think about her without getting anxiety. I am beginning to accept that this is actually the right thing.

Today: feeling good. Not really struggling much. I'm finally beginning to "get it". Things are fine. The futures looking bright. I meet girls and I actually like / fancy them, and they do me too. My confidence and self esteem are returning.

You have to take it day by day, as your mental state is always changing. But at 6 months, and especially after bumping into her mum, I am beginning to recover. In 6 months time I know I'll be there. I can feel it. Life is too short to waste it caring about one person that made you hurt.

Just please, do not contact her. Leave it here. Keep yourself busy. Give it time.

You can read my story:

Here's my first post: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=312261.msg12885520#msg12885520
Here's my latest post from two days ago: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=315925.msg12907384#msg12907384

hi Lostinanother,

its okay to be torn. all of us here are in different stages either with or without our relationships.


i think it would be a good idea, if youre unsure, torn, want to have any kind of relationship with her, to post on the Saving board, and learn the skills and tools taught there.

the relationship may be over, it may not be, but i sense that you are not "done". the Saving board can help you navigate those waters, whichever path you choose.

Elmerr,

I was blown away by your post. It’s almost as though we dated the same girl.
However, I live in South Korea and my ex is South Korean. We dated for two years. My ex also kept trying to get pregnant by me aswell... .
I’m from Barnet originally. Near to your story.

I’ve been asking all the same questions you asked.
How could she change so quickly?
Was anything she said or did real?
Did she really love me at all?
How many times did she look into my eyes and lie?
All the same questions... .

Elmerr, in the 6 months did she ever try and contact you or apologize?
We broke up at the beginning of August and since that time we have been getting back together, going crazy at each other, blocking and ignoring each other, trying to be friends and now finally tonight, one last nasty argument on the phone and finito... .
Thank you very much for all the advice that you’ve given me because I really feel like we are in the same boat on the same ocean... .

Once Removed,

I am torn but I also know that the relationship I had is now just a zombie shuffling around... .nothing I can do can bring it back and if I continue trying to dance with that zombie I’ll end up just like it... .

Elmerr said, let tonight’s phone call be thought of as the last time I’ll ever speak to her and I think that’s a fitting end to the relationship.
In the end her mask was removed and I saw what was underneath and it was ugly and hateful. There’s nothing left for me now but to try and get up off the canvas, go back to my corner.

just a word of caution: ive heard similar expressions before. what usually happens is that the member stops posting here (ignores the Saving board), recycles the relationship, changes nothing, then comes back in greater pain and kicking themselves. or both parties remain in contact until things get really ugly and everything explodes.

id put the emphasis on changing your dance, whichever path you choose.

what is your plan/path for going forward?

Elmurr
I read your links to your initial post and your post from two days ago. What Revelations that you managed to give to me and I'm just so grateful. It's amazing what a terrible relationship will do to somebody that never got closure. I'm unsure that if she ever contacted me that I could just walk away and say it was just two people getting together that were never meant to be due to past baggage and their lives.

She probably wouldn't care and would say it was all my fault in her mind like you said in your post. Again, thank you for helping me heal by knowing that someone else lived through the same Abyss

The best way is not to contact her.

Beezle,
Do you have links for your own story?

Yes, I'm unsure how to direct you to my links. I'm old when it comes to this modern technology. Look up my name in search?

While I'm here-

This family has helped me vent and given me tools to cope. This week is 4 mos out of a mere 2 month r/s .

Based on Elmurr and his advice to you, I'm not sure that if I ran into my ex anywhere I could just say hello. I found a great blog post on that topic on Quota. Just input BPD in the search function.

I miss the intimacy, but that was so brief and short, she already forgot any close Connection. Her life history of abuse and lack of seeking therapy, has robbed her of true intimacy with a man. One without drugs, domination, which she told me she was into with her ex-hubby(s).

Good luck my friend.

Elmurr,
Great postings! You are so right, great advice for all.

Lostinanother I feel for you. Like Elmurr says, we have all been there, I do feel strongly that this is your chance to get out of a terrible situation. One that will possibly never change. I was also there, stuck. My ex wife treated me terribly during our last year together and I was there taking it all, why? Because in a way like you I felt that I loved her so much that I wanted to fix everything, to stay with her. I was so wrong about that. She was constantly abusing me, treating me with disrespect and I was just taking it all, because I was freaking out about been without her.

I went to see a T who enlightened me to BPD, I had no idea. I was thinking, she had a hard upbringing, maybe I am so bad, that I will take this abuse to try and fix things. Well that was really bad, because it got worse. I lost my self respect completely and I just got more and more abused. And it was all my fault, because I allowed it to go that way while she abused me further by saying things like “you are too controlling, too insecure” sure, there were things wrong with me, not her, and she made me believe it, which is really sad.

My T was great in awakening my inner thoughts. I was just going along with all the terrible things she was doing. So my T would say, “so she abused you for a year, acted like a bad teenager, going out all the time, staying out nights, leaving you alone, started a new relationship behind your back and then left you... .so what is it you are not getting here?”

Man, it is so clear to me now, mind you it has taken about 8 months and a one off bad recycle, which I did engage in, due to her pleading to take her back, because I was “the love of her life, she had made a mistake” then the abuse started again and I just went NC. Now I just respond briefly when I get contacted. I have no desire to engage. It was all bad and I feel like I am closer now to getting that feeling of self worth, self respect, it is a good feeling.

So lostinanother this is your time to step away and go NC and work on your life and get your self respect back and stop putting up with abuse, enough. Things will never change and it will continue to make you sad and will continue to make your life miserable. This is a great chance to start anew. Look at it as her doing you a great favour by leaving you, as you will get your life back. There was nothing good there really, a few good times every now and then? Is it worth it? Is that love? Is that a good relationship? A good life style?  I now don’t think so and would not put up with abuse any longer. Take care and hope you get to move forward, you deserve a better life.

Thank you for the advice everyone. Today is 2 days NC. Im still really depressed and still wondering what was real and did she really ever love me?
I do honestly feel like I’m getting over a drug addiction. I used to be a rugby player and I’m a big guy but now I’ve lost so much weight and look sick all the time.
The mind tricks and manipulation and lies were worse for me than the cheating. Because in her defense as far as I know she only slept with other guys while we were broken up... .but I’ll never really know as she was the best liar and actress I have ever met.

Recently, I’ve been thinking a lot about whether she really was my soulmate and the one... .
And I have come back with a resounding NO she wasn’t. How can someone be your soulmate when they can lie to you so easily? Of course they can’t. If she was the one she wouldn’t have moved onto a replacement so easily and talked so heartlessly to me in the end.

I have come to realize that it wasn’t love that I was feeling. It was just lust and addiction... .

Do I want her back? No
Do I miss her? Yes

The funny thing thing is after the devaluation stage and after she had moved on with my replacement she wrote me a long email explaining how I was the love of her life and I was her soulmate and how I made her so happy and how she will never forget me and I will always be the one that got away... .
I can’t help feeling that was BS.
I told her that too and she ignored me for 5 days... .

I’m still worried about her funnily enough. I’m worried that she will fall in with a bad guy who will do terrible things to her and she will become worse... .but I also understand that I couldn’t save her even if I really wanted to... .

I'm totally new here, but according to my T (she saw us together as a couple 9 months ago twice, and 3 times the past 2 months), my ex-boyfriend shows signs of BPD and even some narcissistic traits, perhaps borderlining on socio-path. He just packed and left our apt. for the 3rd and final time  last weekend (this is WILL BE THE LAST TIME), mind you, he's moved out 3 times already in the past 2 months. The blatant lies, the accusations of me being too friendly with other people, especially men just throws me off. Reading Elmurr's list of questions, "what did I do to deserve this? Who does that?" and now seeing your question, "what was real?" I'm asking myself that too. Behind my back, he told our mutual friends that he doesn't love me, that I'm crazy and he's no longer living with me. That was in February when I asked him to leave after overhearing him having a conversation with some woman I've never met in the middle of the night. I'm not the jealous type, but we barely spoke that entire week and to hear how lively he was while I was asleep, I was not happy. I'm now asking myself did he ever love me? We were together for 1.5 years... .I just now found out from one of my best friends that he texted and emailed her saying some pretty bad things about me to her and lying about him planning on proposing to me when he clearly was not in any financially secure place at all... .what is it? I'm hurt and confused and felt totally being taken advantage. He supposedly took my 7' painting easel and my photo papers along with my iMac charger by accident because he thought they were his friend's. The thing is, I know he didn't take them last weekend when he moved out because I was sitting in the living room watching what he was taking. I guess he's been moving out when he borrowed my car while I was at work! It makes me so angry! I hate myself for being taken advantage of in such an utterly disrespectful way! WHO DOES THAT TO SOMEONE WHO LOVES THEM?  I went from blaming myself for the person he's becoming to feeling sorry for him to hating myself and him.

The thing is; they don’t see it as they have done anything wrong. My ex still blames me. Her cheating was my fault because I pushed her away. She lied because I wouldn’t believe her anyway. She talked to me nastily because I always got her wrong.

They never self-reflect and have remorse because they have already justified everything to themselves... .

Today is hard though. It’s crazy but I still miss her. I was going to go to the gym today but I just didn’t have the energy for it.

I won’t break NC. I’ve decided I won’t ever give her the upper hand again and I know her well enough to know that she is waiting for me to contact her... .but I won’t ever again.
I did everything I could. Even our last phone call when she hung up on me, I tried to call her back.

I know now that you can’t reach someone who doesn’t want to me reached.

Lostinanother, it really brings back so much to me reading your posts. I know the pain, it makes you feel like you're going crazy and your whole world is crashing around you. You will have to ride this out for a long time. Having gone through it I can tell you that it was the only thing that ever happened to me that changed me. You're on day 2. Do not expect things to change for a long time. I wish I could tell you that it only takes a week or two, but sadly it doesn't. You will think that you're never going to get over it, but one day in a few months something will take you off guard and make you feel happy again fleetingly and you'll stop and take a moment to reflect that you will actually get through this.

 I stopped going to the gym for five months (partly because of my broken hand, but mainly because I didn't care anymore), I drank heavily, I started smoking again, I gave up on everything for a period because nothing else mattered, I couldn't focus on anything else and therefore I could achieve nothing else. This will pass. just remember that. And if you start questioning yourself and thinking you want to contact her, remember that whilst this breaks your heart, you have to choose respect and compassion for yourself and believe in a better love somewhere over the horizon. Never look back.

Touching on he hang up in your last phone call, She hung up on you because she wanted to enjoy watching you try to contact her and her controlling it. It's narcissism. That desire in her most likely stems from a lack of self esteem and a desire to get back at a world that for her has mistreated her. Be a better person than her.

Was it really love? That's the question we all struggle with. Every situation is different, but I think for most personality disordered people, a lack of a loving bond in early life, or a bond which was founded upon distrust and hate, fails to teach them what love is. They are so desperate to find love, but they have no idea what it is. To them it could be hate, envy, or a bitter power struggle. That to them could be what love is. Therefore what you interpret as abuse could be what they have learnt in childhood to be love. The fact that you ever had the power to stir up such emotions in them shows you that they cared, a lot. Remember that many personality disordered people hate themselves and they cannot understand how anyone would love them. Subsequently they can't see how they could ever cause such pain as you're feeling now. Try not to take it personally.  Looking for reason in the actions of the irrational is very hard to do. Just know that it is more to do with their past and less about you. I would suggest in most cases, the answer to the question "did they ever love me" is yes, they did, in the only way they know how.

The funny thing is now looking back with a little bit of a clearer head I can see how she tried to manipulate me for her own pleasure (?)

For example in one of our last conversations I said that as she has moved on with another guy, I wanted her to tell me to move on too... .She refused and said that I shouldn’t move on. What the heck? She just wanted to keep me hanging... .And when I said I would move on she got angry and said she wished I caught an STD from the new girl... .

Confusing as hell

But it’s been getting easier. It’s not as bad as when we first broke up and I first found out about the other guys. My feelings are always up and down so I don’t know... .

Elmurr. Again. Great insight.

I edited for my facts of an apology email I sent her after 2 mos.  saying I still cared for her. She responded:
" The only reason care is you're a pathetic loser with no life."
I cried like a baby after reading that.
Amazing that you summarize she was a controlling narcissist.
Yet, she cut me off at breakup and claimed I was the narcissist. Then she went NC and said it was my narcissism was the cause and I was the devil reincarnated.
This continuously drives me to the abyss as I analyze the circumstances of her behavior.

It seems a lot of us read other people's experiences on here and genuinely wonder if we were all dating the same girl. The consistencies are incredible.  

Mine called me pathetic for caring. Mine called me a sociopath. She'd even got her sister to believe it and call me it too. Then I was a monster. For what I still don't know.  I contacted the guy at her work that she was sleeping with to tell him about me and to send him the messages she'd sent me, and that made me a psychopath and a monster. .

I spent ages trying to figure out if I was actually  a sociopath. But I have barely any (if any) sociopathic traits, other than being good professionally having started my own business, reasonably clever, and sometimes charming.

I know i had a happy childhood, I am one of three brothers with 3 years between oldest to youngest who were best friends growing up, and my parents are still together now. Though I think we'd all admit there was never much love on display, even though it was there. And as my mum was the only female and my dad was quite absent in that he used to do his own thing, it was always on my mum. Therefore her needs became  the most important thing to me and she would get upset and i felt it was on me to comfort her, and when she got angry it felt like my fault. Much of this, I can see now, is how I stayed with a clearly disfunctional female in the hope that I could make her feel better, like I did my mum. Took me a long time to accept that, but my mum was a big help through recovery for me and she told me that that's what she believed was likely a big contributing factor.

Hey Elmurr,
Great post again. It is amazing to reach that point of finding what triggered our nurturing ways of sorts. Like you, I was the enabler, my ten year relationship focused on making sure she was happy at all times, and that made me happy, I was the constant enabler, whether it was work, food, money, travel, etc... .I continuously just worked on making her happy. But it was exhausting!

Apart from the realities of focusing on that on a daily basis, it did little for my life. All my things were put on the back burner, it was all about her, what mood would be she be in today? Had she had any bad experiences with any of her friends today? At work? Man it was hard work. I also noticed that this was an ever evolving area of problems, as this was never going to be fixed, everything you did was forgotten by the next day as a new issue that had to be resolved came up!

After been away for sometime now and thanks to my T for teaching me about BPD, I had no idea, I am now in a much clearer space, I can see how I was stuck in this role, the caretaker which I enjoyed as I felt good for helping her, but it is not good, and it is not a good relationship or a good life. Its one sided, with little support for your needs, I can see that now, after months of NC and working through issues with my T. I could not see that while with her. Now I think it was so wrong.

It sounds like you have worked it all out as well and are very clear about the situation. It’s great. Once more thanks for the postings

Elmurr,

When I threatened to contact the other guy to tell him that my ex was playing us both at the same time, telling me she loved me while being in a LDR with him, she flipped out and threatened me with telling the police, her family, my family and even the University I teach at... .she saw it as a personal attack on her and her life... .

It’s her Birthday in a few days and I am conflicted as to whether I should wish her a happy birthday at least... .

Has anyone ever broke NC to wish their BPDex a happy birthday? I’m thinking it’s not such a hot idea though.

I was asking myself the same question this week. It's my exes bday in November.

I would suggest in your case that since she is a serial cheater the simple answer is, no. She deserves nothing from you. Don't waste your life on her.

Why on earth would you wish her happy birthday? The only answer I can think is that you're hoping she'll change her mind and come back to you.

Like I've said before, that's her choice. And if you force it you're more likely to prevent it.

If she's thinking about you at all on her birthday she'll be hoping for a message, and if she gets it she'll have her position of power reinforced.

If she's going to contact you, she will.

The best thing you can do is live your life and try to detach. It hurts. But so does hoping for something you have no control over.

Your life is better without this girl in it. I promise you that that is the truth no matter whether it's her fault or your fault, whether she is insane or sane, by the time you're in such a position and reach this site because of it IT DOES NOT MATTER, you are in too deep. your life is better without her. Too much damage has been done. It doesn't matter why or how you ended up in this position, you are here, and that in itself is enough to say that you must move on. Whether it's simple incompatibility, or one of you just wound the other up, it really is irrelevant, you know too much damage has been done, and to drag it out would be to prolong the inevitable. The inevitable has already arrived. To pretend it hasn't is denial.

Some people may say that that's negative and unconstructive advice. I can tell you that's it's the best advice you can hear if your situation is anything like what  you described in your opening post.

It's blunt, but I'd suggest you forget her birthday.

No, it’s the blunt advice that is always the best.
I hear you.

Cheers again

I sincerely wish there was other advice that I could give you without a guilty conscience, but if your situation reflects what you put in your original post, and if your emotions mirror those that I experienced, then I can't. To draw a line is the best advice.

You and her, it isn't right. It isn't how it should be.

It really isn't.

Elmurr,

I know you’re right.

Reflecting on my own emotions; I guess the way I feel is just selfish. Honestly, I feel like I just want validation. 2 years meant something to her. She loved me the same way I loved her. She meant everything she said to me. I was important to her.
I guess it’s selfish that I want this validation because maybe it’s all to my own ego.

The quote from The Shawshank Redemption came to me just now.

Get busy living or get busy dying.

You advice is always spot on Elmurr and I really appreciate the time you spent helping me out.
I can’t get therapy because of where I live.
I can’t really talk to anyone because no one understands.

Amazing. Why would you call your replacement to warn him?
You know, my exBPD took a new factory labor job 4 weeks into our mere 2 mos. R/s, and if suspect she started an emotional attachment to my replacement. Never can say for sure. She was in a public photo at a political event 2 weeks after the breakup and she was the only one in the pic without a significant other. I'm a POI in the same political organization.

Anyway, I'm considered a conversation narcissist due to my professional training as a lawyer . I got out of that predatory profession and now own my own context Consulting business. I'm creative but I'm not sure Clever. I'm unsure about Charming, since my ex-wife, who is now a friend, and says that I am the "broke POTUS of the town" I live in. so people either love me or hate me. No in between according to her.

I think that I am, to be honest, quite deluded.
Even my ex treated me like  please read               |, and stopped speaking to me days ago, I would be lying if I didn’t say I was waiting for some kind of of communication... .why? I really don’t know. I know the relationship I had with her is completely dead and I know I wouldn’t want her back because in the end I saw that she didn’t love me the way she said she did... .She checked out of the relationship months ago while still pretending to be into me while searching for a replacement and once she had found someone who would give her their undivided attention I was dropped like a hot potatoe. So why the hell am I still waiting for some kind of communication.
I can only think it is because of my ego and wanting some kind of validation.
I am moving on slowly and slowly purging myself and getting back to my old self but still I wait. And still I think about her... .
It’s pathetic and does make me feel like a loser like you said... .
I guess I’m still far from recovery I guess

I contacted her colleague because she’d been sleeping with both of us at the same time and she’d sent me awful things involving him, such as how he was just someone she had taken her frustration out on and that he had meant nothing. I also sent him the message she’d sent me after we’d had an argument following sex that read word for word, “it’s a good job you didn’t go down on me last night otherwise you would have tasted D’s ... .” you know the last word, it rhymes with bum. 

She’s so ashamed when her actual behaviour is exposed that she’ll go ballistic. Full attack mode, and thts when words like psycho and monster come out, never Sorry though funnily enough. Like when i spoke to her family. Panic sets in that the real her will be identified and her victim status will evaporate.

Lostinanother, yes your ego is the biggest problem. It’s the same with all of us. If she just showed some sign that she cared or that she was sorry then it would mean the world. But that’s one of the many reasons  why this sort of breakup is so hard: they try as hard as possible, both in their words and their actions, to demonstrate to us that we meant nothing to them and that any previous signs that we did were all lies, hence the title of this thread, “What was real?” 

If she’d told you she’d cared but that she’d had enough because the relationship was dead and that she’s sorry for her part, then you’d be in a much better place. It’s because your ego has been massively battered. It takes ages to repair and you desperately search for a quick fix by hoping for a message from the person that destroyed it and who holds the key to instantly restore it. Unfortunately, she destroyed it intentionally, and she is the most dangerous person to your emotional well-being. Time and good people will restore it eventually.

Today I seriously thought about writing a final F*** You letter. A letter to trigger her nuclear... .An email stating everything that was ___ty about her, how all she did was lie and cheat and manipulate, how her love was as fake as she is and that I am thankful she is gone.

I thought about it for a while but then pushed the idea away. What would it really achieve? It would justify her hate to me and the way she treated me in the end... .

So I didn’t and NC continues... .

You made the right choice. Don’t proof her right.

It’s so hard to do because you want to give them a piece of your mind, but they’ll just roll their eyes, feel glad that they have caused you so much anger, and think you’re pathetic. They’ll also walk away with their head even higher and say to her friends / the next guy, “look how nuts he is”.

Well. 4 mos. today free from the end.
Yes, giving the exBPD an email with a piece of your mind would be a mistake.
I did less than a week after the breakup.
It solidified the nails in the coffin. She was in NC and waited another 2 weeks to reply when I kept pestering her to pick up my stuff (which never happened).
She was an introvert quiet BPD until her responses " Don't F with me". "you smell like mold and moth balls".

After 2 mos I sent an apology. A nice
My email "I still care for you" email.
Her response: "the only reason you care us because you are a pathetic loser with no life". She emailed my boss that she " never ever" wanted anything to do with me.

I'm conflicted today. Actually researched a sample email to send to ask whether she would consider reuniting a romance. Never.

I have had 2-3 coffee dates with women since the breakup. Can't get past the emptiness I walk away with after. No connection. No love bombing with eye contact. It's an addiction. Need the 'crack' of love.

i suspect that it would also be going against your own values, and that thats why you didnt do it.

the hard challenge before us all is to be more mature in the relationship aftermath than we were during the relationship. it was a mature move not to lash out. its something that years from now, even after the pain is long gone, you will still be proud of.

the urge is about a response to feeling rejected and wanting to reverse those feelings, which is understandable. a lot of us share the fear of rejection and rejection sensitivities as our exes. the key isnt to act on the feelings impulsively. the key is to sit with them, as hard as it is. to learn to be mindful (https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind) and work through them. it will build an inner strength and resilience that will be with you for the rest of your life.

lastly, nothing hurt my own recovery more than telling myself i was wrong to feel the way i was feeling. you loved her, you shared a lot together, and its natural that this hurts a great deal. grieve. grieving doesnt make you a loser. thinking about her also doesnt mean youre far from recovery, and trying to banish your thoughts is likely to make them persist. its when thinking of her doesnt interfere with your normal feelings of well being that youve reached the Freedom stage of recovery. that will take some time and work. put the work in. thats the next stage of recovery and where the real progress is made.

Thank you for the supportive replies. It’s much appreciated. Its thinking about in the past when I notice red flags that I never saw before. Like her turning over her phone so I couldn’t see the screen or her deleting her Facebook account when are relationship was going great and starting it again when we argued... .
looking over the past in flashback almost and noticing these other red flags that kind of made me angry again. And I guess bitter almost. I feel like I wasted my time for 2 years with someone who wasn’t really there... .
and I feel like I’m weak for winging and wining about it. Like I should man up already and get on with my life... .
I guess this she is always going to haunt my mind and my heart and I’ll always wonder where she is and who she is with and if she is happy and if she ever thinks of me... .

You won't always think of her, though it will feel like you will at the moment. It's still very fresh. Believe me, you'll get over it. Yes, you'll think of her, she'll always be a part of what happened in your life, but you'll reach a point where when she crosses your mind you get a tinge of sadness, shrug your shoulders and carry on. You cannot hold on to if forever. Your brain can't do it. It will fade, just like every other memory in your life. That much I promise.

I honestly believed I would NEVER get over it, for months. My ex turned my life upside down on 20th March, and I am only now getting back to my old self. 7 months on. Up until about 4 weeks ago I honestly saw almost zero improvement. Were they the sh*ittiest 6 months of my life? Categorically, unequivocally, unquestionably, 100%, without a SHADOW of a doubt, YES! They were truly awful. But, you wake up each day, you carry on, you suffer, and you get through it, you go to bed again, you repeat. The next day, there will be a minute improvement. So small you can't see it. Like ageing. One day you look at a photograph from a couple of years ago and you realise you've aged. One day, you'll look back at your posts on here, and realise you're moving on.

You didn't waste 2 years. As I said before, everything happens for a reason. You must believe that. You will have learnt a huge lesson from this. You will be a better, more caring, more conscientious, more loving person because of it. You will no longer accept abusive relationships. You will stand up for yourself better. Not just in romantic relationships, but in all relationships in life.

You can't see that yet, of course. But in 6 months or a year's time you'll realise how much you learnt from this, and how much better a person you are because of it.

 Again always insightful and supportive advice. Thank you.
I’m feeling better Thanks to the people here. Thank you everyone. You’ve really helped a stranger out and it is appreciated.
I do feel better now but still feel victim of The Long Con... .
I would joking call my ex My Femme Fatale... .how apt that turned out to be  

Banishing my thoughts. I'm glad to hear that I shouldn't and can accept where I'm at.
I cry still. Over a short 2 mos. R/S . I'm 4 mos. out and I still ruminate. Most people even in my support group fail to understand. That is why I reconnected with a friend that has a MSW. He seems to understand.

Thank you once removed for the insight. Elmurr thanks for keeping it "real".
Thanks everyone.

Man, I'm new here myself but I have to chime in here; you have to let go of this woman. I can't stand what you described of her. She needs to go. You have to be done with her. There are others on this planet.

Yeah, thanks Mark.
I know that myself.

More than her, I find myself hanging onto her lies.
I really want to contact her again to try and get the truth.
I want to know exactly how many times she cheated.
But I know she will never tell me... .
If I wasn’t obsessed with finding out the lies maybe I would have walked away a long time ago... .

I am really fighting not to break NC today.
I want to message her that I know;
You lied about A
You lied about B
You lied about C
Was it my baby you miscarried or someone else’s?
Why did you use the miscarriage as a weapon to keep me every time I walked away and why’d you drop me like I was hot as soon as someone else came to show you attention?

Why did you lie so much?

With nothing to lose and nothing to win.
Already hated, split and painted black.
Ignored completely.
She is with replacement.
I don’t want her back, honestly, I don’t.

I messaged her a kind email ( completely different from above)explaining I knew all about her cheating and lying but I don’t hate her and I wish she would get therapy so she can try and fix herself.

Even though the message was kind, I know she will go crazy and hate me more but what difference would it make? None to me.

So whether she reads the email or not, it was really therapeutic to write it.
I won’t go quietly into the night.
I don’t expect to hear a reply. But that makes no difference to me, honestly.
I got off my chest what I wanted to let her know.
No point going NC if I had things I needed to say and I didn’t write anything nastily or angrily. It was kind of a friendly but cold message.
I don’t know how I’ll feel later but I’ll keep you all updated.

Lostinanother!

yes, i was also feeling that way, what have i got to loose.  Whelp, I sent a mean text to her while i was drunk, im working the drunk part out, i semi-regret sending it.  Mostly because a part of me wants her back but the other part also wants to burn that effin bridge down.  I sent her am email a few days later all sappy about how i wish her happiness and that i know that im not emotionally secure enough to meet her emotional needs but that i want to forgive and be friends.  Her response was that i need to work on me deep emotions and blocked me on all fronts.  She probably didnt even read that email.  I am black to her and i have a feeling i will remain there forever.  I was starting to do so much better until i snooped at her and my replacements social media, then i snapped!  I will get back up and keep moving forward down my path and hope that i can learn and not make the same mistake in the future.  Keep your head up!  This thread has helped me a ton, mostly that I am not alone in this crazy game!

Cheers!

Great post.  Still getting chills.  It is so familiar.  The framework.  The progression.  Everything.  The only notable difference in is the details.  They all will vary from person to person.  But the virus is the same.  I hope you can get to the point of true no contact.  I am struggling for that right now.  And to all who have replied, I see I am in the right place.  I have seen that for over 5 years now.  I just registered and gave an introduction and partial synapses of my story.  You all are great.  It is real people, with real experiences, giving real advice, trying to achieve real change in our lives.  It is amazing.

Oh, and I have started to accept something for myself that may help you or others.  It is a bitter truth, but the truth non the less.  It is all one big lie.  Everything.  And every time I ask that question to myself, was it real, I have to remind myself how many times she asked me that after she broke up with me, again.  And I say to myself, if she asked it, I already have the answer.  And unfortunately, the only closure we can ever hope for is for ourselves to stop needing contact with them.  To stop needing them in our lives.  Our closure is within us.  It is us wanting ourselves back.  We will never know the truth, because honestly, I don't think she even knows herself the difference between her lies and reality. 

Patic attack,
Thank you.
A friend once said to me “ I don’t burn bridges. I napalm the whole town.” Sometimes at the end of the relationship, I think about his words. But today wasn’t a napalm day. Lol

Elite,
Thanks too.
I’m glad that so many people people are getting help and support along with me.
I guess what I had was real. But it was a twisted version of some truth.
They did love us and that’s why we could bring out such strong hate in the end. Elmurr said something along those lines.

hey guys,

"damn the torpedoes" is a good album; im not sure its the best strategy for mending a broken heart.

imagine being on the receiving end. members here can tell you what its like receiving these kinds of letters from their ex. theyll tell you that its just a bunch of blame and finger pointing and victimhood. theyll tell you it didnt change their heart, or get them to look at themselves any differently. theyll tell you all that it did was help cement their decision, and caused them to lose even more respect for their ex. and we, collectively, usually applaud them for not responding.

whats done is done and theres no going back, but we dont want to get tripped up continuing the dysfunctional dance going forward. this is a time for strength, resilience, and resolve.

I just got back from a great night out with friends and I wanted to take this opportunity to thank everyone who replied to my thread or read my thread.
I live in South Korea. I have lived here for 12 years. I have a few good friends but no one that I could talk about all of this with because they wouldn’t really have understood and they’ve got their own problems to deal with.
I can’t really get therapy here because perhaps my Korean is not fluent enough to truly explain how I feel.
But everyone who commented, you’ll never know how much you truly helped me in a very dark hour.

I think the people on this board are shining examples of human beings.

Everyone here is intelligent, insightful, kind, patient and caring with honest hearts.
I don’t know any of you personally but I do know that is a fact.
We all do deserve better.
My ex didn’t respond to my message but I really couldn’t care now.

When you get a cancer removed from your body, you don’t miss it. You don’t ask why it chose you. You just flush the cancer down the toilet and celebrate you’re now healthy... .granted the cancer didn’t give you amazing sex but you get my point... .

I really appreciate this board and the people here!
Thank you

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