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My mind goes back and forth--feeling compassion for my ex, recognizing reasons behind some of her behavior, believing she's trying her best, to protecting myself, thinking she doesn't care for me the way I do her, thinking I need to be better at advocating for myself.
She never cheated on me or hit me, but she criticized and blamed me, and she raises her voice at me.
How do other people determine whether a partner is mistreating them? I realize I don't have a good model. Isn't some arguing bound to happen? So where lies the feeling loved and respected? I suppose part of it for me is both people accepting responsibility and showing an interest in making up/improving the relationship.
I have anxious attachment too and I know part of that is over sensitivity to rejection and feeling others don't care for you. Has anyone been successful in confidently determining whether they are actually being mistreated in spite of anxious attachment issues?

Hey vanx, Are you asking how to determine whether you are the object of abuse, verbal or otherwise?  Or are you trying to figure out how to set appropriate boundaries for yourself?  I'm unsure.  Sure, some arguing is normal, but usually those w/BPD take it way beyond arguing and into the realm of rage.  Fill us in, when you can.

LuckyJim

a lot of the time i felt i was being mistreated, i tried, in different iterations and versions, to communicate that it was unacceptable. this included things like "giving her a taste of her own medicine". or pointing out double standards. or... .all of these approaches were messy.

so i think it requires a commitment to your values, and to living them. you build your boundaries around your values. you communicate your boundaries non verbally and physically. the neat thing about boundaries is that we get to say whats in and out of bounds. they dont have to be the same boundaries as everyone else.

example: i can be pretty self conscious. when someone, say, criticizes what im wearing, or tells me im having a bad hair day, it makes me even more self conscious, and i find criticism to be such an insulting assumption. it makes me feel engulfed. a lot of people would disagree with me about that. theyd want to know, and theyd appreciate it. not me! just dont do it unless i ask :)

theres the big stuff, which is much easier to label. outright disrespect, physical abuse. in the middle of a "breakup" fight my ex poured coffee (not hot) on me. that was a big one for me, and the first that comes to mind, in terms of what i deem unacceptable.

then most things fit into the category of "i dont know if everyone would call abusive, but i do not like this". this requires a combination of communication, effort on both ends, and self awareness. most of the things that come to my mind are not of the "deal breaker" variety, but could get there, and could indicate long term incompatibility.

for example, some couples like to tease each other, which can either be good fun, or a slippery slope. most of the time, i enjoy being teased, and i enjoy teasing. inevitably, even when i have a pretty well established comfort zone with my partner, one of us crosses a hurtful line. thats important to communicate, and for the offender to own. sometimes people just use teasing as a passive aggressive means to slight the other person. not good.

some couples fight more than average, but they resolve their conflict, and otherwise have a happy and healthy relationship. me, i value a low conflict relationship. i see little need or use for raised voices or shouting and zero need or use for verbal abuse. i believe that two people, even with a lot of hurt, can communicate/argue/fight constructively and hear each other. granted, a lot of stuff rolls right off my back, but i can also be pretty sensitive to certain things. at this point, that kinda stuff is fairly well established as to who i am, but its important that i be mindful and not overreact to my feelings, and communicate my hurt/protest/whatever in a mature way. im looking for a partner that can do the same.

Thanks LJ. Yes I think that's it--I'm trying to determine whether she is abusing me or is just misunderstood or something like that. I worry I could overreact.
Once removed. It is helpful to read your perspective. I like the highly personal aspect of boundaries. I know I could find someone who can love me like I love--and there could be trust and room for my sensitivity even. Anyhow thank you for sharing. This is helpful.
I had another thought. All I really want is for her to be nice to me again. Is that effectively wishing for the return to idealization, since apparently that's when I though she treated me a way I liked? She doesn't have to think I'm yhe bee's knees or anything.

what kind of behavior are we talking about specifically?

Well, my therapist told me it was emotionally abusive of her to say I was inventing things that weren't there when I used my "I" statements. Lately, abuse is too strong a word, but not super nice and not helping me feel comfortable and trusting. She'll just snap at me and raise her voice sometimes. Like once I accidentally interrupted her and she snaps "Let me finish!" It's not a huge deal, but her tone of voice comes across as very harsh and annoyed to me.
What do you make of this--this is what bothers me most lately. She invites me to meet up and chat since things are uncomfortable at work. I thank her when we meet for breaking the ice and reaching out, and she says "I just meant it literally. Things are uncomfortable and we can talk if you want. We could be friends or not."
I assumed she didn't want me to read into things? (I def did not). I also figure it is more about easing discomfort than wanting to be friends because she misses me or enjoys my company. It's not abuse at all lately, but it hurts and is confusing... .offering a meet up and friendship but saying she only means it literally? I'm not even sure what that means. Ugh sorry--I am in need of full NC but am stuck seeing her. Thanks for hearing me out.

I think you may be on to something here, vanx. She may be trying to soothe her feelings more than being there for you. Alternatively, she may want to be friends, but doesn't know how. I think your best bet is to focus on what you are getting out of these interactions. It sounds like not much.

What is your motivation behind meeting up with her? You would like her to be "nice" again. But what if that doesn't happen? Are you willing to continue to get hurt in the hope that she will change?

In my view, life is too short to spend with people who don't treat me with respect and courtesy. As once removed said, it all starts with our values. And you know what? You don't have to justify them or doubt them: you just have to live them. And sometimes it's not easy. 

When relationships transform from something intimate to friendship and/or collegial, our boundaries also adjust, right? So what was acceptable then may or may not be acceptable now. Also, we grow and change ourselves, so our values and boundaries transform as well.

It sounds like your ex's behavior is butting up against your value of being treated with kindness and care. I'd examine my motivations and expectations in this situation, e.g., what am I receiving/hoping for in this relationship? Since I have to see her at work, how can I interact with her in a way that allows me to feel as balanced and peaceful as possible?

It's a great discussion, vanx. I think we can all benefit from thinking about these issues.

heartandwhole

heartandwhole, thanks for guiding me here. You've provided a lot of useful information, and it inspires me to read that one's values need not be doubted. I prefer thinking this way in terms of values rather than right or wrong opinions/perspectives.
I do feel confident that her behavior is against my values. Maybe what trips me up is the intention. I wonder if she is aware of how her behavior could come across. My understanding is that it is too painful for her to accept that her behavior might be hurtful, because that would make her all bad. Is it possible I just misunderstand her, I wonder? What seems likely to me is she is behaving badly at times, but can't accept responsibility, so it makes me doubt myself. I guess we are not such a great combo, though the fact is, if I just knew whether she really cared, I'd do anything for her, and I'd understand if she didn't mean to hurt me. I guess that upholding values comes into play here though, and maybe hope that she cares, even if she does deep down, could be an endless trap of expecting something else from her.
Anyhow, your post had made it more clear to me what I have to do. Whether it's intentional or not, her behavior is hurtful to me and it's time I start treating my own self better. Thanks!

Absolutely, that's possible. With anyone. So, many of us give the benefit of the doubt to people, especially those we care about. Some of us continue to do that when the other's behavior has proven otherwise, however. And that's when we can end up in a spiral that puts us in positions where we get repeatedly hurt, and where we possibly enable the other person to offload or not take responsibility for their actions. In those cases, neither party is getting anything good out of the interaction. This is where communication tools can be so helpful. I think we can all learn to be more skillful in our communications with others.  :)


Very good insights, vanx. Thanks for articulating that so well. I totally get what you are saying about wanting to know that she cares, which would help guide your reactions. My first thought is "of course she cares," despite not being able to get inside another person's heart or mind. But maybe the bigger point, as you write above, is that the expectations that spring from your personal concept of "caring" could very well turn into an endless loop that keeps you stuck.

She is who she is and does what she does. The question is: who are you and what do you do when______[fill in the blank]? You can accept who she is and care for her and even love her, without ever interacting with her again (more than pleasantries, in your case). We can have boundaries and be friendly and kind to others, too.


Right on, vanx.  |iiii That's what it's about, in my view. And then, when we treat ourselves with respect and care, interesting things begin to happen. Other people notice and often the dynamic with other people changes. Sometimes it doesn't, and they may eventually leave our lives. No matter what happens, we feel good because we are taking care of ourselves and by extension we can end up being kinder to others, too. I think that's because we are clear on our values and aren't constantly jockeying for a position because we aren't sure what matters to us and what our values/boundaries are.

heartandwhole

There is another component to all of this too. It isn't just our independent boundaries at play, our interpersonal boundaries come into play as well. I think that this is where many of us get tripped-up. We just assume that our partners have the same independent values as we do and therefore those values should guide the relationship and how we treat one another. When that doesn't happen, we get upset and that's when the fights start.

While what heartandwhole said about not having to explain your personal values to anyone is true, merely expecting our partners to share those values with us is problematic. We develop such expectations and then get hurt and upset when they are not met.

Hey vanx, In a BPD r/s, it's easy to get caught up in the hope that things will return to "the good old days."  That proved to be a mirage for me, because drama and turmoil is actually the norm with a pwBPD, whereas the "nice" times are more of an illusion.  The reality, I suggest, is in the present.  Waiting around for things to go back to "the way they were" is likely to be a thankless vigil.

LuckyJim

I just wanted to thank the three of you for your comments. It's a lot to digest and I have a lot to learn. I appreciate you taking the time to write.
LJ, I hear what you're saying. It's still hard to understand and my sense of reality is confused, but I trust your input.
I did have one question for you, Meili. Do you think you limit your growth seeking a partner who shares those values? It's so important to me never to blame someone else for my problems, but it's so important for me to feel care and affection from a partner. This is where I get paranoid about my anxious attachment and yes, if I am expecting too much. Do you think you limit yourself by seeking partners who give love the same way you do?
Heartandwhole, as always I appreciate your validation and encouragement. It eases some of my worries. I also really appreciate your point about loving from afar. I hope to get to that place once I am more stable. Thanks!

Yes and yes.

Your partner does not necessarily have to share the same, independent core values that you have. I cannot tell you how much I've learned and grown from people who do not have the same core values that I have. So much can be learned and experienced because from being around someone who values things that you may never have considered. The best part is that it is a two-way street and the other person can learn and grow as well.

The problem though isn't the independent core values as much as it is the interdependent ones. It can be your independent value that respect must be given. This means that you won't call others names or treat them like a child. That has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else. It only dictates what you do and how you conduct yourself.

It has been said time and time again around here that people are maintaining their core value of self-respect by walking away when their partner starts yelling and name-calling. Here's the thing though, their partner yelling and calling them names has nothing to do with their self-respect. Another persons' actions have zero effect on your independent core values.

Far too many of us, however, allow the other person's words or actions to affect us. That's because we are not maintaining our own core values. We look to them to stop what they are doing so that we don't have to change what we are doing. In short, we make ourselves victims and blame the other person.

A far better way of handling the situation would be to establish an interpersonal boundary with the partner and reach an agreement that yelling and name-calling will not be part of the relationship and if it happens, what is an acceptable response. This is where most of us fail.

How we give and receive love is a completely different beast. I give love with gifts and acts of service. I don't necessarily want those in return however. I receive love from words of affirmation and quality time.

My x received love through gifts and acts of service, so that worked great for her. But, she gave through quality time and physical touch. So, we had a huge problem.

What ultimately lead to demise of the relationship was that we valued different things and couldn't find interpersonal boundaries that we agreed on and gave/received love in different ways.

Does all that make sense? I hope that it helps clarify things.

Thanks for writing this out. It does make sense, but to be honest a lot of it is still difficult for me. I like the concept and the challenge of growing in this direction. Perhaps if I develop an inner strength, the two of us could get along somehow. If not, I can see mastering what you describe as beneficial for me getting over it and working on relationships with others. I like that it makes me feel more powerful. I guess in a way it doesn't matter if the behavior is hurtful or not. I don't have to let it affect my sense and value of self. It's been a painful year that is in many ways lost to time, but the advice on this thread makes me feel stronger. I think I finally see the wound. There's something in my upbringing/an emotional unavailability of my parents that makes it hard for me to see myself. I hope I can get through the pain and be stronger. Anyhow, thank you all.

It absolutely matters whether or not the behavior is hurtful. I say that because that will help guide you moving forward. I spent a lot of time spinning my wheels trying to figure out whether or not I was misunderstanding the ex or whether he had bad intentions or whether or not I should be hurt. There were times I tried to dismiss myself and say that something didn't hurt or shouldn't hurt when clearly it did.

If I find something hurtful and tell my friend that it hurts, and my friend continues to do it, then that isn't much of a friend and it is up to me to decide if it is worth continuing the interactions. There were times that the ex did things that sounded really great on the surface and he would even tell me things like, "I was just trying to be nice." or "I was just trying to help."

If I told him I was on a diet and he went to the store and bought my favorite candy even though he knew that I was trying to eat better, that is not cool. It is sabotage. However, it did act as a source of confusion because he could very easily tell others, "She got mad because I brought home her favorite candy." Things were quite often taken out of context by him and I was left feeling crazy. I had very legitimate reasons for feeling the way I did. The confusion led me to a place where I felt like nothing I was feeling was legitimate or real. And, it led me to asking questions like "how do I know what is okay and what isn't?" He bought me candy. Why do I find that upsetting? Why am I not grateful that he bought me candy? Forget the fact that I struggle with my weight and the only way to keep myself from indulging too much is to simply NOT have it in the house.

That was a huge source of confusion for me. There were several times over the years when he would do things and I would get upset and he would turn it around and take it out of context and I would walk away feeling horrible about myself. I would feel like a horrible person that was overly demanding and wanted too much. The reality is that I was asking for very little.

For me, it wasn't about having a partner that shared all of my values. It was about wanting a partner that respected the fact that we were different. It was about wanting a partner that would be there for me. I know that the ex and I have very different love languages. He needs lots and lots of praise. My love languages tend to be acts of service and physical touch. I thought it was a matter of the two of us getting on the same page. Both of us read "The five love languages" book. We both took the online test. I would tell him what I wanted and what I needed until I was blue in the face. It didn't matter that he did a million other nice things. What matters is that he didn't see ME or hear ME.


This is something that has come up in my counseling. I was content to be invisible as a child and I spent a lot of time soothing others and putting my own wants and needs aside. I did it in the relationship with ex because that is what I knew and that is what was comfortable for me. If I hadn't woken up and decided to finally address my wants and needs, I could have easily continued the relationship with ex. I could no longer do that. There are things that I want and need and that is okay. That doesn't make me selfish or defective or demanding or any of the other things that were said directly or indirectly by ex or my FOO.

One of the things that has occurred to me is that my parents' emotional unavailability led to me fighting against them trying to define who I was. They didn't see ME and, at times, would try to tell me that they knew me better than I knew myself. They cast each of us (me and my two sisters and brother) into these roles and there was no getting out of them no matter how hard each of us tried. The ex continued that. He has me cast in the same role that my FOO did. Even when I was hopping mad and went snooping and sabatoged his relationships with other women, his reaction was, "Oh, I know. You were just trying to protect me."    WHAT? Um, no, I was hopping mad and angry and I wanted to make sure that the other lady knew he was a jerk. I was acting out of anger and immaturity. I was NOT protecting him in any way.

Vortex, thank you so much. I was feeling kind of overwhelmed and lonely, but your post makes me feel really understood, and I really needed that. I've followed your posts over this last 9 months or year and am impressed how you are learning and taking care of yourself. Thank you for saying it matters--you caught me there!
It's uncanny what many of us nons have in common concerning our childhoods. Again, it helps to know we're not alone. Thank you so much for your comments :).
The crux of what bothers me is these twin issues I want to work on: not being so affected by others, but also honoring my own needs and being able to recognize when they are not being met. Like your comment about asking a friend to honor your request. And I can relate about a private matter where you felt invalidated seeming like you are silly or the bad guy taken out of context. Ah, I hardly know what to say, but you've really validated my feelings and eased my doubts.  Well, again, you really cheered me up. Thanks!

What do you mean when you say you want to work on not being so affected by others?

I wanted to work on that as well. Now, I have no desire to work on not being so affected by others. I am slowly coming to see that the things that bothered me were things that absolutely should have bothered me. Instead of not being so affected by others, I am trying to do a better job of paying attention to my own internal feelings. Feelings are not right or wrong.

If somebody that you love and value says that you are a train wreck or that you didn't float their boat and that some other woman inspired them like you never did, it is perfectly okay to feel like I have been punched in the gut. If the person that you love continually forgets things and ignores you, it is perfectly okay to be affected by it.

It is perfectly okay for me to be angry and hurt. Quite frankly, it is okay for me to have a reaction as long as it is legal and doesn't physically hurt anyone. It is okay for me to be hopping mad. I know it won't do any good to share that anger with the ex. I share it here or with my closest friends. Or sometimes, I keep it to myself and find a home improvement project to do or something to cook. I try to find positive ways to direct my energies.

I was sharing some of my frustrations with somebody and I love the response, "Break ups are rarely easy. They hurt. It is okay to be angry and hurt and frustrated and confused. It doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with you."

I am HUMAN. I have FEELINGS. I don't know of too many people that wouldn't be impacted or hurt by some of the things that I have endured.

If somebody says something mean to me, I will be affected by it and it will likely hurt my feelings. What I am trying to do is look at WHY I have spent so many years around people that would treat me so poorly. Also, I want to try to do a better job of figuring out what to do when somebody says or does something that hurts. If it is somebody that I value, I want to be able to tell that person without fear. It is odd that I don't have a lot of experience with being able to tell people my feelings without fear. That goes back to my childhood. Ex was even worse than my family about not seeing or hearing me. At least in my FOO, I had siblings and we were all going through the same hell. We validated each other a lot. With ex, there was little or no validation of my experience because he was so good at behaving one way publicly while behaving differently in private.

My journey has been long and messy with a lot of ups and downs.

I think that both of these are true statements.

It is what you do with the feelings that matters. You can blame the other person for not respecting you and hurting your feelings, or you can look at why it hurt your feelings and go from there.

When my x would tell me things like how I was mean because I didn't tell her that she was perfect, that I was a bad boyfriend for not doing something that she thought I should, or that I was stupid because I didn't agree with her thoughts, I initially started to question myself. But, then I realized that her thoughts were not more important than mine. I know that I'm not a mean person, that I'm a good boyfriend, and that I'm not stupid.

I had a choice to make, I could either believe her or believe myself. Sure, it hurt; sure, I questioned whether or not I was mean, etc. It's natural and healthy to look at one's self when criticized. It helps us grow and make changes to be better people. So, yes, from that perspective, it does matter.

As vortex of confusion said, there is nothing wrong with having feelings and emotions. We all have them, they are natural. That is a given. The important part is what we do with them. Ignoring them is unhealthy. Expecting another to change their behaviors so as to protect us is unhealthy (to be clear, it's the expecting part that is unhealthy). Allowing them to be the sole driving force behind our thoughts, choices, and actions is unhealthy. Recognizing them and looking at why they, the emotions and feelings, are there and how we can use them to our best advantage is healthy.

Do you see how the two work together?

Yes, okay, I am seeing how both of these things can be true. I agree with both of you and find a lot of value in what you are sharing from your personal examples.
Vortex, like you, I doubted my own feelings, and that's a shame, because what we feel is very important and it's up to us to really honor what's coming up. Not being affected by others I see as an ideal, as an important way to get stronger inside. In reality, I am constantly affected by the people I interact with.
What I am very curious about is how, if I can grow in these ways, it will affect the choices I make. With my ex for instance, even though as my ideal self I could have probably tolerated idealization and devaluation much better, would I have seen us as compatible? Probably not, because she was not into a commited relationship, for one thing, and that's really important to me.
One thing's for sure, if I hadn't been so dependent on her, I would have been able to think more clearly, and I wouldn't have lost so much self respect.
It's a hard lesson, like you are punished for your own pain and weakness, but at the end of the road I hope to find greater love for myself. Though I still feel sick, I already feel much less affected by her opinion of me. I'm very grateful for your input, Meili and Vortex.
Lastly, the expectation aspect makes perfect sense, and I hereby accept full responsibility for this!

And if I were in a stronger place, to answer my original question, I think I would have determined I didn't like feeling disrespected, and I would have politely exited.

That is so very important to understand! Most of us ignored the  red-flag  and stayed in a relationship that we should have exited long before. Looking at why we made that choice is crucial to not doing it again in another relationship.


This is the very position that I found myself in. I could have lived with the idealization and devaluation because I had detached with love. But, when I did that, I learned that my x and I just weren't compatible as people. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that for you or me.


Can you explain this more? What did you doubt about how you felt?


Maybe it's how we are using the word "affected." I don't think that anyone would dispute that when we interact with others, stimuli is present and out bodies respond by producing biochemicals. It's these biochemicals that we call emotions. Once the biochemicals are produced, they interact with other parts of our bodies and we have what we talk about as feelings.  Those are involuntary, biological response to stimuli.This is not the "affected" that I'm talking about.

The "affected" that I'm talking about is the choices that we make after the involuntary, biological response. It's the thoughts, behaviors, and beliefs that we adapt as a result of the response.

My x called me stupid. Do I chose to believe her? Do I question whether or not I'm actually intelligent? Do I get mad at her, JADE, and try to prove her wrong? Do I run to another woman to soothe my bruised, fragile ego? Do I just accept that it is her opinion and she's entitled to it?

To me, the latter was the best choice. The litmus test for me became: If she was telling me that rabbits were cooler than frogs, would I question my beliefs about frogs? Would I believe her and decide that rabbits are cooler (come on, we all know that frogs are the coolest!)? Would I get mad and argue with her to try to change her opinion? Would I use triangulation or confirmation bias to make myself feel better? If her opinion about rabbits didn't rise to that level of importance, why should her opinion about my intelligence?
 
I think that's the part that is missing from the discussion and thus the equation. Why do we put so much emphasis in the thoughts of others and rise them to the level of being more important than our own?

We tend to get so caught up in the actions and choices of others that we fail to look at ourselves and why we make the choices that we make. I used to struggle quite a bit with blaming others for my choices. CoV's comment about the diet and candy is a great example of where I used to be.

At one point in my life, I spent about six months solid drunk. I didn't like it, but couldn't bring myself to stop. I tried numerous times. I finally committed to not doing it anymore. While trying to "dry out," I got mad at a friend from coming over and bringing beer with him. How dare he tempt me, try to sabotage me, and ruin my desire to be sober! Wait!, What? He's not in control of me, I am. He's not responsible for my controlling my impulses. I can't blame him for my choices.

In short, I stopped being a victim and allowing others to control me and my decisions. I had to take ownership of myself.

You raise good points and provide helpful examples. I can relate to a lot of what you have to say. Why did I doubt myself? It's what I habitually do, and I care what this beautiful and intelligent young woman thought and thought about me. She told me that I was inventing things that weren't there. Really why though? I depended on her to see me in a good way to feel good. I see my mistake now.
I see the value of what you mean about choice of what to do with our emotions. No, it doesn't do much good to argue or blame. I mean, it would be cool if I could meet a girl who likes me and doesn't cut me down! But if I encounter someone who does, I won't try to argue for myself. Like you said, she's entitled to her opinion. I wonder if I would be caught up in idealization the same way again too? I guess if I love myself enough I won't be shaken by someone's idealization of me.
Right on, Meili. It's starting to make sense.

And p.s. if I hear any sort of anti-frog talk, I am outta there! 

Agree, vanx.  For me, the goal has been to learn to love myself enough that I will never again allow myself to be the object of someone's abuse. 

LJ

There is a difference between blaming somebody else for your actions and seeing that the person had no regard for who you are and where you are at. Yes, it was MY fault that I ate the candy. I had the ability to make the choice to eat it or not. However, when in an intimate relationship with another person, I think it is reasonable for the other person to take you into consideration. If I hadn't said anything about my desire to avoid having certain things in the house, then that is on me. There are two other mitigating factors at play. One is that I had made it very clear what I wanted and needed. Two is that he is diabetic. I made it a point to NOT bring any of his favorite sweets into the house. It seemed really bogus that he would continue to bring some stuff into the house even though he didn't like it and knew that I didn't want it in the house. I bring this up because it is a good way to demonstrate that a situation can be very different depending on the context and circumstances involved.


No, you can't blame him for your choices. However, did it cause you to take pause before inviting him over again? Did you tell him that you were trying to dry out? Did you ask him not to bring over beer? If he just showed up with beer and had no idea what was going on with you, then that is very different than if you had been vulnerable with him and shared where you were at in your process. In my opinion, if you are trying to be open and vulnerable with somebody and they do something that you asked them not to, then that could be considered abusive at worst or, at the very least, cause one to take pause and take a deeper look at why you might want to continue the relationship.

One of the things that I want out of an intimate relationship (romantic or not) is for the other person to actually hear me and support me. That may not be something that everybody wants in a relationship and that is okay.


Part of taking ownership is being realistic about ones own strengths and weaknesses. It is being realistic about what one wants and needs out of a relationship.

If I know that I am easily tempted by something, then it is up to me to make choices where I am not going to be in a position where I am continually tested. That is tiresome and requires a strength that I don't have. For example, I quit smoking. As part of the process, I tried to not be around people that smoked and I tried to go places that were smoke free. I told my friends and family what I was doing and they all respected that and tried not to smoke around me too much and they didn't try to guilt me when I avoided places with smoking. They didn't enable me to go back to bad habits. They stood back and gave me the support that I wanted/needed to accomplish my goals.

I had tried to quit for quite some time with no success. After the ex left, I was able to quit because I didn't have somebody going out and getting me cigarettes. The ex seemed to have an interest in keeping me unhealthy. I know that the eating and smoking were on me. Those things were my fault completely. However, I do recognize that there is a point when a person gets really, really tired. Resisting candy or cigarettes on occasion when a friend or relative drops by is one thing. Resisting it day in and day out even after asking for help or support from others (especially somebody that claims to love you) is exhausting and is bound to wear down even the strongest person.

At the risk of hijacking this thread, but I think that this is relevant to the vanx's discussion... .

There is a huge difference in the things that you are discussing CoV. One is about executive control and the other is about the type of relationship that you want.

It seems that we agree that we are responsible for our choices and maintaining our own executive control. It also seems that we agree that it having someone who is disrespectful to our wishes does not make for a healthy relationship.

However, it is just as unhealthy to blame the person who is being disrespectful for our poor executive control and our choices to maintain a relationship with that person. That is a victim mentality that will keep us stuck and not allow for acceptance of our own accountability and healing. We must look at our role in everything to reach that point.

Recognizing and understanding our weaknesses is a great place to begin. But, that's the thing, it's only a beginning. We can't stop there or no change will occur. We must look at why those weaknesses exist and find ways to strengthen ourselves in those areas. When we are strong, there is no reason to worry about what the other person does or does not do because we can take care of ourselves.

The best part about all of this is that when you are comfortable and confident within yourself, you won't allow people in your world who act that way. There won't be a reason to have them. But, if you do, it will be because that person is someone that you want (for whatever reason) in your life, not someone that you feel that you need. That changes everything.

As we touched on earlier, if either of us had been stronger and had a better sense of self, either of us could have probably stayed in our respective relationships and not been as bothered by the treatment of our SO. But, that would also have required us to actually want that person in our respective lives. I ultimately decided that I didn't want mine, and definitely not with the way that she treated me.

LJ, right on--that is the path. Thanks for your support!
What Vortex is advocating for I identify with too. I don't know if it's the same for you, but I allowed my needs to be minimized by myself and others so long I feel very protective of giving myself permission to feel things and protect myself from harm.
I see what Meili is saying too though. I think to be truly powerful, we have to take this position of responsibility. We need that sense of control to have the power to exit bad situations. But I don't disagree with you at all Vortex. You are speaking from a protective place inside me too. We need to not be afraid to call a spade a spade sometimes.
Don't know if I am adding much but wanted to say the direction of the thread is helpful for me.

Also, I am glad you raised the issue of want vs need. The depth of need inside me that came out in this relationship still scares me. It shows I need a lot of healing. Anyhow, I am encouraged by what you say. I look forward to the people I can still attract into my life.

I don't think that anyone is advocating not "calling a spade a spade."

It's good to vocalize our feelings and discontentment. If we don't, then the other person cannot know what is acceptable and what isn't. We teach others how to treat us after all.

It's what happens after that is important to what I'm saying. Sure, I could/should have told my friend that bringing the beer was uncool, or CoV with the candy thing; but that's where the friend/partner's responsibility stops. It then becomes incumbent upon us to make our choices.

Blaming my friend for my drinking beer just because he brought it over is akin to my blaming a store my drinking beer because they sell it. Why I chose to drink it is what I had to look at and address.

This translates very easily into believing the hurtful things that our partners say to us. Yes, we are justified in being hurt and angry that our partners would say such things, but why we chose to take it in and believe it is our part in all of it. That's what needs to be looked at and address.

That's why I say that they are two different things. Being hurt and angry, or whatever feeling, is one thing; what we chose to do with it is quite another. We cannot hold anyone else accountable for those choices.

Thanks for explaining this, Meili. I get the distinction completely now. Ok yes, it's what we do with the emotion ourselves. That makes a lot of sense!
One of my favorite writers for inspiration is Pema Chodron. I came across a saying of hers a while back that always sticks in my head: drive all blames into one. I really like the way that's said.

I really like that quote as well!

Besides, what good does it do to blame another? It just breeds resentment about something that you cannot control. Focusing on what we can control is all that we can do.

I'm happy that all of this is making better sense. It took me the better part of a decade to start to grasp it. You're doing so much better than I did!

Thank you for the encouragement! The pain of the breakup felt like a bottomless pit sometimes, but after a bumpy road, I am starting to see it is an important lesson about myself. Thanks everyone for your comments!

Maybe I should start a nee thread, but I want to ask a quick follow up question here. I work with my ex. During a typical week I sometimes only have to see her a total of 10 minutes, but it still causes me pain. And sometimes we do have to work together. When this happens my progress is set back a lot.
My question is, regarding what's been discussed about living a values based life that is personal, about not being affected by another person, I fear I can't live up to my ideals and just can't cope. It hurts to have to face I can't handle it, because it shows how affected I am by her. I know if I were in a good place in recovery I could handle seeing her, but it hurts me so much. I guess I am just looking for some support how I could frame quitting my job and not being mature or strong enough to handle seeing her as a positive part of recovery and moving forward. Where I'm at now, I will be disappointed and depressed quitting, but I just am at the end of my rope having to see her. I can't even look her in the eye. Thanks for hearing me out--it's just a tough spot.

vanx,

It is such a tough spot to be in, and I can understand your feelings. I know if I had had to work with or see pwBPD right after our breakup that it would have slowed my recovery. I'm sorry that you have to interact with her regularly and that it hurts.  

Although I understand your thinking about quitting, I would encourage you to explore every alternative that might be supportive for you, especially if your work is fulfilling. Ultimately, you have to decide what is right for you, of course, but I wonder if there is a way that you can deal with the hurt that will strengthen your feeling of self-agency, rather than diminish it.

Is it possible to get a transfer or change departments so that you don't have to work with your ex.? If that's not possible, it might help to try to reframe (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56200.0) the way you see your ex and/or your relationship so that interacting with her won't be so painful.

What do you think?

heartandwhole

vanx, i wonder what you would say to me if i spoke to you/treated you the way she does. i dont want to encourage conflict, especially in the work place, but when someone is being a jerk to you, you dont want to respond like a wounded puppy - it encourages more of the same.

im reminded of a line from family guy: "thanks george, you wanta say that again without the sarcasm?"

someone else once told me its best not to respond to "hey *******" with "hi".

youve mentioned that this issue of confidence/timidity was one she brought up (its one ive struggled with as well), and it touched a sore spot because you felt it was true. i think its an obstacle that remains. i dont mean go off on her, by no means. i mean dont be a door mat. be professional, but be strong.

give yourself a pep talk. come up with a few one liners if need be. i suspect youd feel a lot more comfortable at work and around her.

youve got it in you.

Thank you both heartandwhole and once removed for your replies. Don't mean to draw this out, but it's been a real tough spot, and I want to break through it and stay recovering.
Thanks, heartandwhole, for encouraging me to not be hasty with quitting. The thing is, I already quit this job once because of the breakup, and then I was lucky enough to be given a second chance. It's only a restaurant service job, but it's a comfortable work environment--the only problem I have is with my ex.
When you speak of reframing, I am reminded of your earlier comments in this thread about my expectations. That seems related. Here at home with my thoughts, it is manageable. In the moment though it is extremely difficult. I am almost scared of the level of intense emotions that arise in me from seeing her and interacting some. On one hand, I am still incredibly attracted to her and I feel the intensity of addiction when I see her. Then the next moment I am livid about her attitude or something along those lines. I feel like I could punch my fist through a wall. I'm trying to stay mindful, but it is an ultimate challenge for me to try to stay level headed. I don't even fully understand where all the emotions are coming from. I do feel willing to try new tactics, and I think I would feel better about myself if I could make it work. I think depression is a factor in making it difficult to stay positive and keep a fighting spirit.
once removed, I appreciate your perspective and to be honest had not thought of this, but I see what you mean. Most of the time she acts really sweet, but I am on edge. When she's mean, it's sudden and I'm almost not even sure if it's happening. I do feel at a point where I can't really take any more put downs, so I think I am ready to defend myself if the occasion arises. My usual tactic is honestly just to ignore/avoid her though. It's not the most mature, but my thoughts are I'd just really rather not bother. I just still feel so obsessed with her and ridiculously attracted. It feels unsafe. Anyhow, I get what you mean though, and I could use some work standing up for myself better. I'll try to imagine some things I could say to indicate that I am not a doormat.

It helps to feel heard. I'm so frustrated when I see her and take two steps back. Thanks for the input!

Caution, I may be projecting here because I avoid my x so that I don't have to deal with what you are describing vanx.   

My position on all of this is that you are focusing on the wrong thing. It sounds a lot like you are focusing on what she may or may not be thinking about you rather than on yourself when you see her.

I think that it goes right along with what H&W said about expectations and what OR said about how you respond to her.

As I said, I avoid situations where I think that my x will be so that I don't have to deal with what I think that she might be thinking about me. It's not a healthy way to live.

I'll ask you the same question that my T asked me: What does it matter what you ex thinks about you? That relationship is over, she is no longer in a position where her opinion of you should matter.

I think that it is very important of you to look at why it bothers you so much to interact with her at work.

Hey Vanx, I can relate to your feelings of pain upon seeing her. My ex and I have 4 kids together so there is zero option of not seeing him or interacting with him.

I can't blame him for my feelings. A lot of times, he is super nice. Sometimes, it is more painful when he is nice and sweet than when he is a flat out jerk. His niceness hurts because it has me questioning my own sanity at times. I find myself thinking things like, "Why couldn't he be this nice and sweet before I kicked him out?"

During those fleeting moments, I catch myself wondering if I did the right thing when I ended the relationship. I know that he would gladly move back in tomorrow if I would just relent. I also know that he would not change for one second and things would go right back to the way they were. I can't and won't do it. But, I get angry during those sweet and peaceful moments because it does remind me of the good parts of the relationship that I lost. It is okay to hurt. Have you let yourself fully grieve? Have you let yourself see the good and the bad in the relationship and grieve the whole thing?

I really think that once removed has some great words of advice. I don't really have much choice about seeing the ex because of the kids and the fact that we have 20 years of history, finances, etc. all tied up together.

The question of "What would you do if somebody else treated you this way?" is one to really, really think about. You can stand up for yourself without aiming to create conflict. Yes, standing up for yourself and asserting yourself can create conflict and it can sometimes feel like I am being a jerk, b***h, or something else that I consider negative.

When I stand up for myself, I feel like I am being a real jerk even when I am totally justified in setting boundaries and standing up for myself. That makes it very difficult at times.

I am going to add a slightly different angle to what Meili said. I don't worry so much about what the ex thinks of me. What I worry about is what I think of me and how I feel about me. I don't feel good when I respond in a way that does not align with who I want to be. When I feel like I failed at being nice or not being impacted, I can be very hard on myself. I have to get beyond that and let myself be imperfect. I am untangling a life time of negative voices that have been playing in my head as a result of my dysfunctional childhood. From the day I was born, I was told that I was just an afterthought. I am the youngest of 4 and it is kind of painful to feel like an afterthought. No matter how good I did, I was asked why it wasn't better. I could have an A and I would be asked why it wasn't an A+. I have a long history of being told that I was not enough or was too much. The ex doesn't have to say a single word to me. Those childhood messages play in my head and I can't help but feel like I failed when I am hurt by something that is hurtful. I was often told that I was too sensitive. As a result, I have spent my life trying to be tougher and stronger. As a result, I have allowed people to do things to me that I shouldn't have. I have kept quiet about things that I shouldn't have. I have bit my tongue and swallowed so many times when I should have stood up and said something.

Why would I NOT want to have feelings about somebody being rude or disrespectful to me? I see those reactions as a bit of a protective mechanism. It is up to you to decide what to do with those feelings. For example, with the ex, why would I want to stop being bothered by his BS? If I had chosen to continue the relationship with him, then that would be very important. However, I have ended the relationship and I have decided that I do NOT want to be treated that way and I do NOT want to have any kind of relationship where I am treated that way again. Allowing myself to feel the negative feelings is a way of reminding me to pay attention so that I can make better choices moving forward. I feel like I went as far as I did in the relationship with ex because I was afraid of conflict and because I was so focused on myself and how I wasn't reacting perfectly that I totally missed just how much the relationship did NOT work for me.

Time doesn't make it go away. However, it does get a lot better with time. For me, the key has been to allow myself to be bitter and angry and not be so hard on myself when I don't respond like I think I should have. I keep running into, "Why weren't you angry? Why did you allow him to treat you that way?" The more I dig and the more therapy sessions that I have, the more I realize that my anger and frustration and all of the negative feelings are way more justified than my being nice and positive. I don't know too many people that would have put up with what I did without getting angry and having some kind of reaction.

I find it very difficult to interact with the ex like nothing ever happened between us. I don't know how he feels about me or the relationship. I know that I feel very hurt and very wounded. I feel like I wasn't worth his time and effort. I feel like he threw away his family so he could go search for something better somewhere else. When he acts like nothing ever happened, I find myself feeling like I didn't matter to him. I still very much love him and I still occasionally find myself wishing that things could have been different. I recognize that things are what they are and all I can do is grieve and move on. Grief takes time and it sneaks up when least expected. I think about all of the loved ones in my life that have passed. Why would I want to stop thinking about them or forget the good times that we shared? Even though they are gone and are no longer part of my life, I can still cherish the good and cry over it being gone.

I'm very grateful for the responses I've gotten. I feel kind of needy and embarrassed coming back to tell and ask more, plus all the talking I do with multiple therapists. I'm sick of talking about it, and yet I still feel the need. Anyway the feedback helps a lot, so thank you.
Meili, what you write and what your therapist ask both make a lot of sense logically. I do continue to care a lot of what she thinks of me, or mostly what she thought of me, particularly that she found me unlovable because I am not emotionally stable. I think so too.
What makes it hard is I still think I'm madly in love with her and her liking me again is the only thing that will make me feel ok. I know that is cardinal sin #1. I guess the work to do is really explore my beliefs and the price I pay for them. It seems like a failure of self love to lose even more power and quit work so as not to see her. I think I would still be stuck with the same ruminations even if I leave, but wonder if I could heal faster, and I just don't know if I can handle it. In any case, I will take the question you raise into serious consideration.

Vortex, it really helps to feel less alone thinking I am crazy wondering if I was evet mistreated. I feel for your situation not being able to avoid your ex, as well as the pain of your ex being kind. It can make the bad things that happened seem distant and unreal.
Our stories are different in that my relationship was only 2 months, if that. I only bring this up because of your question about grieving. It is a good, thoughtful, helpful question, but I feel so silly. I never got to even really know her. It's all in my head. Maybe all this questioning of myself is blocking me from fully grieving though. I don't know.
I do want to work on being more assertive, and I think you have a good point--there is a way to do it without conflict. I suppose it's easier for me to be assertive with people I trust and who already have respect. It's something to work on with people I don't trust will "get it".
I'm told I'm too sensitive as well. Sensitivity is something to be confident about, but we get so many messages to the contrary. It especially hurts to be told you are "too sensitive". It's so judgmental and invalidating. Good for you for making choices based on thoughtful reflection of your emotions. I think it is pretty universal to want to be treated with love and respect, sensitivity aside.
Your last paragraph really touches me. Even though your relationship was much longer than mine, and with children, I strongly identify with what you describe. I don't know if I'm missing the mark here, but it's sad when you share those special, sensitive traits with a partner, but then they hide their feelings or have a protective front. Anyhow, thanks for sharing--I find a lot of comfort reading what you have to say. I appreciate the realism of "Time doesn't make it go away. However, it does get a lot better with time. "

i was going to suggest this, and you articulated it quite well. i get it, too. i had a class with my high school ex and i spent the entirety trying to... .in various ways, get her to like me again. i once briefly dated a gal who is kind of a user of people. after we split i ruminated for quite a while on the idea that apparently she didnt even see a use for me anymore. yikes  :)

... .its the kind of thing we really want to leave behind, and if you can get there, i think it will stay with you for life.

im a sensitive guy, too. these days, i consider it a strength, because im actually better in touch (https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind) with my sensitivities and those of others. they dont rule me.

im wondering if this


is a big part of the feelings of rejection. you consider yourself a sensitive guy. you met someone who mirrored and validated that, was in fact, attracted to you partly based on it, and then were told "you are too sensitive" (which yes, is invalidating). i get the sense this is a big thing for you, wanting someone to appreciate your sensitivity, a part of your identity you feel was rejected.

Thanks, once removed,

You hit the nail on the head here, and I feel understood. This is the center of what has been so hurtful. Before this relationship, I was on the path of building confidence about my sensitivity. I think the positivity I had around it is what helped me get into a relationship at all. I have let her view of me shatter what was only beginning to be built up, mostly because she was keenly perceptive and cut to the bone with some of her words, and because deep down I fear the worst is true.
Of course you're right about leaving it behind, wanting to be liked again, and it's encouraging to hear you say how it's a permanent change. The switch in her perception of me still confuses me, even though I think I understand it better. It's really hard not to take it personally, because her accuracy was deadly keen. She saw through me.
I am just depressed too. If I were not, I would probably be able to handle it a little better. I'm just not in the best state of mind, so it's really back to the drawing board still trying to manage depression. Anyhow, thanks for your insights--you are quite accurate.

For whatever it's worth vanx and (CoV too), there are parts of my x that I'm still very much in love with as well. If we could have found common ground, I choose to believe that we'd still be together. I don't look at my loving her as a bad thing though, it's a positive to me. I learned more about what I actually want in my world.


I get those feelings. I stopped posting about my life a while back because of the same things. But, then I realized that is what we are all here for... .to talk, ask things, get advice, and work through what we experienced.
 

And, therein lies the heart of the problem for many of us. We understand the logical part, but still fight with the emotions. I think that's why OR shared the Wisemind link. Both the intellectual and emotional sides of thoughts are important. Ignoring either causes problems.


I suspect that this is true. I know that in my case it is. There's always something there to remind me (oh, great, now that bad 80's song by Naked Eyes is stuck in my head!). What has changed is how I've decided to think about and deal with the thoughts.

 Naked Eyes. Thanks, Meili. It's comforting to know you still have feelings of love too. Ah, wise mind is so tough to master--I did appreciate that link as a reminder though. I could use more practice with it. Plenty of opportunities to try.
I hope I can change how I deal with the thoughts too. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. I was struggling with depression going into the relationship, but the end of it has made things worse--I am stuck in a bad combo of grief and depression. I know you shouldn't look to a romantic partner to save you, but while I was with her the depression was lifted. She made me feel good, even happy.
I hope I don't lose my job, but I think I am going to follow through and enter the hospital for ECT soon--been discussing this with my doc. I'm sharing here because I haven't told anyone outside of therapy and I am pretty nervous. Maybe it could work and I could have more strength to grow from the relationship experience. If not, I hope time will do its thing. I would like to get to a place where I could find the joy she gave me within my own self. Anyhow, I go on. Thanks for listening! It helps just to write this out.

Oh, man, I hear ya on the depression and entering the relationship giving a glimpse of happiness. I've spent my entire adult life struggling with depression and self-worth issues. My x made me feel that anything was possible and that I deserved to have more than I ever thought possible. So, I think that I completely get that part.

Like you, I started to look at how I could give myself those things. I knew that would require me to see myself as I believed (and still believe) that she saw me. By understanding that she was mirroring what I showed her, I was able to start seeing those things. I still struggle (a lot!) with most of it, but it is getting better.

There's something else that separates my way of thinking from a lot of people around here, I believe that my x truly loved me. We all talk about what we endured during the r/s, but knowing what I know now, she endured more than I did. I know that I was just involved in the r/s and the problems as she was, but they affected her deeper and more than they did me. It's part of why I know that I'm not a victim and I can make comments like "it's how we chose to deal with things."

I told you that I avoid her these days because I am not ready to deal with the feelings. It isn't the feelings of love that I avoid, it's the feelings of shame and guilt. The feelings of love and happy memories are things that I can smile about, so why would I avoid them? This is why I suggested that you look at what's behind your wanting to avoid her. I'm not suggesting that you feel guilty, but why would you want to avoid the feelings of love and the happiness that you shared?

I've always struggled with the idea of mourning a loss. Yes, I understand the emotions that come from knowing that we will not have someone or something in our lives again. That doesn't escape me. What I chose to look at however is not what I've lost; but, rather, what I've gained. That's why I talk about the gift(s) that my x gave me. Rather than deciding that she was a negative in my history, I view her as a positive. That only leaves me to deal with my own actions and feelings.

What are you choosing to look at? What are the thoughts that you struggle with about the relationship? I think that's where you need to be looking.

Thanks, Meili. I think my ex endured a lot too--I know what you mean. I believe in your case you are right, but with my ex I don't know that I believe she loved me. I think she believed she did at the time.
I'm having a hard time answering your questions, so they must be good questions. I would like to think positively about things. I think I am definitely focused on loss and rejection. The experience did teach me I need to respect myself more and stick to my values--that's a positive. It's hard to look at her because I'm still so attracted. I can't look her in the eye because she sees me as wounded and pathetic. It makes sense I need to shift my focus, but I don't know if I can handle seeing her. I guess I have to admit that right now I don't have what it takes.
I will think more and journal about what you have asked here. If I get some ideas it could be the start of a new post. I am having difficulty getting in touch with the answers. But like I said, that shows it's important to think about, so thank you! I will also think more about the mirroring aspect you mention. It's hard for me to see how the mirroring played out, but it makes sense it could
be helpful to raise self esteem.

Thank you, but there is no need to thank me. We are all here to help one another get through some really difficult times in our lives, learn, and grow.


Maybe that's a good place to start. You don't have to answer these questions for me/us, but some things to think about is why this one person's opinion means so much to you? What makes her opinion of you more valid than your own? Why put so much stock in it?

Also, why does it have to be a loss? You're starting to see some benefits from all of this (you taking a look at yourself and how you view yourself and making changes to grow and learn), so isn't that a boon rather than loss?

There are 7.6 billion people on this planet. Think about that number for a moment... .She's one of 7.6 BILLION! Let that sink in as you ponder all of these questions. How do the numbers play out when compared to the things that you are thinking about?


Then, look her in the eyes and show her that you are neither of those things. You aren't wounded, you are just dealing with the aftermath. You definitely aren't pathetic, just in a bad situation. Change your perspective to change your attitude.

Even if you can't see those things right now, act as if you do. Stand tall and proud.

Remember, 1 in 7.6 BILLION... .

Even if she can't see the good things that you have to offer, the odds are that more than 1 of other 7.6 billion people do. Even better, at least one (probably a lot more) of those 7.6 billion will possess the qualities about her that you adored without the things that you disliked.

Remember, 1 in 7.6 BILLION... .

Just something to think about.

Jeez, Meili, this is really kind of you. I really will take some time to ponder these questions (and probably will post about it!). I just wanted to thank you so much for your support. I really will take this to heart!