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I go to sleep every night and things seem to be OK. And then many mornings, I’ll wake up to a fight that I can eventually work my way through. This morning and this afternoon things are very very different. I believe her this time when she says she’s leaving this time. It hurts so much. I should probably be posting this on “saving” but maybe I’m in denial still.

The reasons are ridiculous- at least the stated reasons. I’m a son of a b, I don’t care about her, I won’t “break up with my parents.” And she’s right, I’m not willing to do the things she needs me to do. But they’re not reasonable things!

So much love and so much time and it hangs in the balance. I’m shocked. I don’t know what else to write right now, but man this sucks.

I'm here with ya! What is with today? It's not a full moon! :)

I don't know if I am denial either! Man, with a non, I always knew when these break up things were ultimately real, but with these BPD traits... .man, who knows.

I know! Reason? Reasonable? Nah!

Break up with your parents? What does that even mean? Give them up for her? Yeah, they can say some unusual stuff.

I went to bed thinking things were OK too!

Does she have somewhere to go? Has she ever walked out the door before? Why do you think this might be different?

 

Lack of object consistency.
And fluctuating feelings that come from within them,  but they perceive them as coming from the person who is supposed to make them feel loved- you.

It is good to be kind and loving to someone we care about- but we can not "make" them feel that if they are not feeling it in the moment. We actually can not make anyone feel something or fix their bad feelings for them.

They perceive their feelings of not being loved as something in the moment- " you didn't buy the ring" or the yeast infection means you rejected them sexually. But this is all in their minds. You might be able to help it with temporary appeasement but it is temporary.

The ups and downs, black and white, push and pull are part of the relationship dynamics. My best guess is that the waves went up ( the renewal of vows, the ring) and now they are down again. But soon the tide will probably rise.

How can you take  care of yourself during these times? Take your D to the park, go for ice cream, do something nice for yourself.

"Breaking up with your parents" won't solve the issue and will likely hurt them.

Hey, DB, hang in there.  I'm not betting big money that it's over.  My wife can be so convincing even after decades with her, I'll become convinced that the hammer is really coming down this time.  There's always a way she raises the ante, adjusts her approach, or exploits a weakness.  I find in these times I need to wait 48-72 hours (your mileage may vary) before attempting a repair.  Any immediate attempts at repair just feed the drama.  I just try to maintain some distance, not do anything through my behaviors to fan the flames, and put some energy into other relationships, like the kids.

Good luck.  Give it a day or three.  You'll be OK.

WW

Thanks everyone. I don’t have a lot of time so I’m just checking in for now.

I think what I have here is a choice. I can continue to try and convince my wife that I’ll “pick” her and cut my family off, and that’s how things get “resolved” for 5+ years at least. Or, I can just “come clean” and say what I believe, which is cutting off my family of origin is not something I’m willing to do and that I’m done sneaking around behind her back to talk to them and sneaking around behind my parents back telling them I’ll fix things and it’ll all work out.

It won’t. I think I’m finished. I’ll be back on when I can. But This is enough.

  Thinking of you and wishing you the best at this terribly difficult time!

DaddyBear


That was my threat.  She did kick me out of the house becuase I said no.  I ended up coming back the next day after a night of negotiations saying I would stop talking to them for a period of time until she felt more comfortable.  Comfortable never came...

For me, that was the beginning of the end.  Giving into her demands, losing my family, was just another demand in a string of demands over a period of time.  I made that promise at year 15 of my marriage.  Unfortunately, mine ended in year 18.  The worst thing I agreed to was not visit my father in Hospice because wife told me I couldn't and I promised I would not visit family (from agreement).  I was just as unhealthy (if not more so) to agree to it.   

If to do over, I would not have given into the demand to stop talking to family as it was just a short change in behavior for a long term problem.  I lost my sense of dignity through it.  I should have stayed strong.

Sorry you are going through all this Daddy Bear as I know it has been a roller coaster for you for quite a while. 

Sluggo

pearlsw - thinking of you too. Thank you. 

Sluggo - hello again. Thank you so much for posting this at this moment.

As I type this, I am taking a break from a very long roller coaster emotional session. I am trying SO hard to validate and remain calm. I totally understand how upset she is that I lied and just went on speaking with my family of origin behind her back. I regret that. Would I have regretted it more if I DID stay away from my FoO and had an irreparable rift to deal with? Maybe. But what would have REALLY happened 5 years ago if I had said “absolutely not. I respect your point of view, but I respectfully disagree. I am going to have a relationship with my FoO because I believe it’s the right thing.” One thing that could have happened was my pregnant wife would have walked out the door. I believed her when she told me she would if I stayed in contact.

Anyway, the result is I’m dealing with both the lying (which IS on me), AND the unreasonable demand that I cut off my FoO.

And yes, I can foresee a day in the not too distant future when one of my parents are in hospice, having never gotten to know their granddaughter and being alienated from their son. Not good. Not what I want. This isn’t reasonable.

Hey DB,

As you know, I have my own history of giving into demands, making "deals with the devil," concealing the truth to avoid conflict, etc.  The price has always been higher in the end.  Yup, suck it up and admit where you violated your values (not where you violated her unreasonable expectations).  Then take the true path.  Do not shut out your FOO. 

Does she have any reasonable points about your FOO?  Any realistic concerns appropriate for partial validation?

Not telling you to run, but if you are talking about a potential ending, I will mention that you should read "Splitting," by Bill Eddy.  Have you read it yet?  Are you documenting your child care efforts and any out of bounds behaviors by your wife?  Even if you stay, documenting can be consistent with the "Improving" mindset because it helps you keep your bearings on reality.

WW

Thanks WW - I made another compromise of my values again tonight, albeit a smaller one than usual. Now we’re headed to bed together finally, rather than me sleeping in my car. We have 4 sofas in the house, but apparently if I didn’t come up with a “solution” tonight I was going to be forced to leave the house because “she can’t rest with me in the house.” Then later when I asked her why she thought she could force me out she told me she would tell the police she didn’t feel safe. Um, yeah.

Anyway, as for any reasonable points, yeah, there are certainly things my parents could have done differently over the years, and likewise there are things that both my wife and I could have done differently as well. My wife’s perception is that my parents want to interfere with our relationship, and that my mother wants to dictate how we live our lives. There’s some truth to that - my mother has said things like “you kids really should... .” or “why don’t you kids just... .” I’ve acknowledged my role and told her I didn’t think this was fair for my mother to do this, but I’ve tried to encourage her to bring this to the table and we’d all work it out. Instead she picked the nuclear option and this is where we are.

I’m going to try and get some sleep now but I’m still thinking things over. Splitting is a great book. It’s helped me be more confident in my abilities as a father and my position should anything come to that. Thank you for suggesting it. I don’t hear “run” - I AM still trying to improve things. It’s hard work.

Hi DaddyBear, I am glad you are not out in your car tonight! Hope things can improve tomorrow! 

Daddy Bear,

There were some details I did not realize on your part and I did not share when writing last night.  As many stories we have seen on this web sight... .this is very similar. 


After I made the first negotiation with her... .(like you after being up late and a series of days of not sleeping well), I said I would not talk to FOO but I did behind her back. She found out a few months later, and trust was shattered.  I should not have done that.  No excuses but I was avoiding conflict.  After that happened,  I came back at 2nd negotiation and said I would not talk to them and I did not talk to FOO for about a couple of years.  No birthdays, no Christmas, etc.


Exwife said the same thing.  Actually one night she did call 911.  She told the operator that she did not want me in the bedroom.  She told the 911 lady (she was on speaker phone thinking I would tell her to hang up) that she wanted me to leave.  The 911 said, is he hurting you... .'no' wife answered.  911 said, why dont you just leave the room.  wife left room and cops came about 25 min later.  Nothing happened. 

One time she scheduled an appointment to visit the Deacon in our church together.  She said the same thing that she wanted me out of the house.  I said no, she said she would call the cops.  Again, she said just my presence at the home made her feel crazy.  Deacon asked me what I was going to do.  I was crying saying I did not want to leave the house. However, I chose - the first time I ever saw divorce/separation as a solution- I left the house for a day until she asked me back.  That 'option' was very freeing to me.  I finally realized I did have an option.  Just having an option made me feel more in control and not a victim.  It gave me strength   

Hey DaddyBear,

I'm sorry to hear about your struggles. We all know the desperation about dealing with unreasonable demands, and among all the turmoil, to have one (small) thing to feel guilty about, opens the door to feel really awful about it all. We are not meant to be perfect. You did your best dealing with unreasonable demands.

You mother could be whatever, but still, you wouldn't be here if it wasn't for her. You couldn't be a husband if you didn't have parents. So it is only natural to want to keep in touch with them. And if they are intrusive, deal with it with your wife as a team.

I hope things turn better, and that maybe this crisis is an opportunity to deal with the issue in the open, and you don't have to lie anymore.

Best of luck, and a big hug, brother.

DB, I've slept on the garage floor in a sleeping bag for the very same reasons.  Finally, I pushed back.  I'll sleep in the house on any flat surface that is not in a bathroom.  My wife has said the same thing about feeling threatened by me, even though she's threatened to take a baseball bat to me and wakes me up in the middle of the night when I'm sleeping on the couch.

Don't sleep in the d*mn car.  Call her bluff.  Document every time she threatens you with calling the cops.

I can't remember, has she ever been physically violent?  If you are concerned about her calling the police, you might consider visiting them in the middle of the day when nothing has happened, introducing yourself, telling them what's happening in your home, and asking them for tips.  This will give you a feel for how your department handles these things, how they treat men on the receiving end, and will establish some credibility for yourself.  This could be another confidence builder for you.

On the FOO thing, I think most guys have a bit of learning to do about how to deal with their FOO's opinions, particularly their mother's, when it comes to respecting their wife and how she runs things.  It goes with the territory.  So, make your adjustments, be open about it, and drive for a solution that still includes your family.

And don't ever sleep in the freaking car again.  You need to be rested for work so you can put food on the table and be a good dad and husband.

WW

DB... .let me offer a couple of suggestions.

First, I agree with those who say you should call her bluff on calling the cops if you don't leave the house or accede to her demands du jour. Well, "calling her bluff" isn't exactly the right term. Instead, I would say, do not give in to threats. All you are teaching her is that threats work to control you. IF the police tell you to leave the house, you leave the house then. You don't leave if she threatens to call them. You don't leave if she calls them. You don't leave if they come to the house and she tells them a crazy story. You calmly explain your situation to the police. They'll try to de-escalate, which may involve asking you to leave the house or some other solution. Then you go along with the solution the police offer. But I suspect that her threats are empty and it will never come to that.

Second ... .this may be a situation where a modified form of SET is appropriate.

Sympathy. You are so sorry for lying to her and contacting your parents behind her back. You were dishonest, and that is your fault.

Empathy. You understand how she might feel she can't trust you, and you would feel the same way if she was lying to you.

Truth. It isn't reasonable to ask you to cut off contact with your parents, and you aren't going to do it. Ever. Period. You will not hide that contact from her in the future, and you'll be honest about your interactions with them. But cutting off contact is not going to happen, no matter how much she asks or threatens. Period.

I think you will need to be this clear and this firm. You will not make her happy with this SET, but you will have definitively established your position -- and you will not engage in more debates or circular arguments about this -- you have told her what you will do, and she can leave or stay as she likes.

Knowing how similar these stories are is both reassuring and making me really sad for what goes on in these kinds of relationships.

Sluggo - I am so sorry you had such a similar pattern emerge. I also cut off contact TWICE, once for 6 months and again for 3 or 4 months. The demands for a complete ban on all contact started while my wife was pregnant with our D4. I couldn't bring myself at the time to stand up to my 6 month pregnant wife and say "absolutely not." And it was a real out-of-the-blue kind of thing - up until my wife's pregnancy, I was only "strongly discouraged" for me to have contact with them.

WW - Perhaps the best therapist I ever saw was someone who said exactly what you're saying - reach out to the PD now, explain the situation, and get a feel for how things will go. Make them aware before my wife does, just so I can get my side heard in a non-threatening environment. I really appreciate you sharing that with me. My wife has only been physically violent a couple of times, most recently she kicked a hole in the wall this past June. Before that it was about 2 and a half years ago when she tried to break my fingers. And before that it was throwing a remote control or something else that was handy. It's calmed down a lot, but it's one of the reasons I heard about seeing the police ahead of time.

flourdust - your SET is perfect, and it's something I've been trying to articulate in various forms over the past 24 hours. I really really like how you laid it out, though, and I am going to internalize this.


It seems like I'm more or less in another calm period. It was crazy how quick it flipped this time. I was literally lying in bed with her this morning after leaving to drop off D4 at day care. She was picking right back up where she left off at 4 in the morning. She hadn't gotten out of bed and left me to get D4 off to school, which was great, I loved it, it was SO much easier with out my wife involved.

Anyway, she was about to tear into me one more time and I just rolled over and said "I love you. I want to be with you. I want this to work. It's been 18 years today since we met. I WILL work this out with you" - and then, 30 seconds later, we were talking about spending the night in a hotel making love.

Despite the calm right now, though, I am really NOT OK with where things are. So they WILL change. But at least now I have some breathing room. I have no intention of squandering it.

The demand to cut things off with your family is a BPD-isolation tactic.  In order to ensure you are enmeshed and become an emotional appendage, all other contacts need to be cut, decreased, ridiculed and ended. 

There is likely a fear that you talk to the family about her, and they may think poorly of her and therefore encourage you to leave her.  And, family means you have a safe harbor of sorts, should she go off the deep end.  She may want you out of her sight, but she won't want you on Mom's couch, either. 

There is a line from one of the letters my BPD father wrote me, after going NC when he disowned me at 19 for telling him "No," for the first time in my life regarding an order.

I was about 21-23 years old, had been working in my field after graduating college on a full scholarship cum laude.  I was by no means well to do, but I was doing for myself with some help from H's parents (then BF, we were living together and they helped with some of his bills).  I got a letter AT MY PLACE OF WORK after being NC for about 3-5 years, and one thing that stood out was the prophesy/statement that my dad would only be happy "when you crawl back to me on your hands and knees in a fit of depression." 

He was angry I was denying him the pleasure of being enmeshed, of granting him full control over me. 

I know you want to decrease conflict, but I agree you don't need to be sleeping in your car.  If your house has multiple sofas, can you lock any door to one of those rooms and sleep in there?  And yes, if not the PD, reach out to some outside entity (lawyer, clergy, family counselor) that can document your marital difficulties BEFORE the battered woman act can come into play. 

The anger about lying is a smokescreen.  Basically, her emotions are a mess, and like others have stated, she NEEDS them to be your fault.  She needs YOU to "fix" them.  And when we, the "nons" DO mess up for real through exhaustion or fear of their reactions, they are "gotcha, I was right all along!".

BINGO.  You got it DB.  In a calm tone, that short statement expressing confidence in the relationship and that we'll work it out.  One of the most effective tools in my toolbox.  Doesn't work every time, but it's a keeper.  Also, feels a million times better.  You are a shepherd, not a sheep.  Glad it worked!  And thanks for the reminder -- I'll need to use my own advice this week.

WW

I gotta say that I agree with everyone who has said that you shouldn't let her bully you. I've never understood what someone meant when they said, "She threw me out of the house last night." I don't know how someone does that without a court order.

As for the thing about your FoO, what is valid in what she is telling you? There is a reason that she wants you to cut contact. What is behind the words? That is what you are dealing with.

As for the lie part, I know that it's a drag, but you have to take your lumps on that one.

I'm sorry that all of this is going on for you. 

The topic "break up with your family" is distressing to me - having been on the receiving end of this from my father, at my BPD mother's directive. I wish any of you considering cutting off your parents for this reason would spend some time reading the heartbreaking posts from parents in this situation on the other board.

If this action actually helped your relationship in the long run, I might say go for it. If cutting off my grandparents, aunts, uncles and eventually me actually saved my parents' marriage, I would say OK do it because I also would have wished that for my father. But it didn't do it. It didn't change a thing. My mother was not happier in the long run. So this action basically hurt the people who loved him for no real benefit to the marriage. Maybe temporary relief but not real change.

So, you lied. People mess up. It is rarely the crime of the century, unless someone makes it so. Intrusive mother? What mother is perfect?  Probably most mothers have made unwelcome suggestions to their grown children- because they are mothers and because they care. The problem isn't that someone is intrusive or they made a mistake- it is the interpretation of it and the black and white thinking from victim mode- that the person deserves a punishment far out of proportion than the actual crime. So you may upset her, and this means sleeping in the car? So your mother says something that may feel intrusive- she may even express concern for her child who is in a difficult relationship and for that, you should cut her off?

I know some of the things my father went through- the being tossed out of the house, the suicide threats, some of it was truly hard and I know he would have done anything to make my mother happier but cutting off his family didn't do that.

The problem is not your family. The problem is the dynamics in the relationship and the way a person with BPD processes emotions and projects them on to what they perceive is the issue in the moment. What they are upset about isn't the problem. They feel lost and invalidated in the moment.

There are ways to improve your marriage, but cutting off the people who love you isn't one of them.

DB, I don't have a whole lot to add. You've gotten really good advice, and I hope for your sake things are calm tonight like this morning. Just having that break in tension can help get your thoughts in order and let you focus on yourself for a while.
I really just want to say I'm right there with you on so many points. Sometimes I feel so alone, and reading these posts helps me know I'm not alone. You're not alone. There are lots of us out there, all over the world faced with these ridiculous situations and wondering how we got here and what the heck to do now.

Hey everyone - so, remember how I said we talked about making love in a hotel? Well, we’re at that hotel. We had this planned for a while so it’s not exactly spur of the moment. But we got here, had dinner, had a drink. At dinner, she even said “there are so many great things about our relationship. They’re really good great things. Why can’t we just have the great things and walk away from the bad?” So it seemed we were doing well.

We get back to the room, start to get ready for bed, and BALM! “I just can’t do this. You were talking to your MOM! I can’t do this anymore. It’s not even about your lying. It’s just the fact that you want to talk to your mom! I am leaving you. You just can’t live without her. You aren’t able to be in an adult relationship. You need to just go home and leave us alone. It’s the only way you’re going to be happy.”

I’m in the bathroom now. I’m about to go back in and see if I can talk this through. But I get the feeling that she looks at me talking to my mother as me having a legitimate affair. Like, cheating on her and having sex with my mom or something. It’s like my mother is literally a sexual and relationship partner threat. It’s more than I can even really comprehend. And I’ve been working on this for a long time.

Hi DB, Oh, I was so rooting for you in the hotel room! :) What a twist it took there! I am so sorry. Gosh, why, why must people's minds be this way? I hope she flips back to wanting to be with you, but I know you are in for a long struggle. 

Thanks pearlsw - they did flip back around and we’re getting some sleep. It’s funny - she also has a personal situation that made sex not a possibility even if things were perfect. I so totally get it and would never pressure her. I’m just happy to be sleeping in the same bed.

But the issue with my FoO is still completely unresolved.

 She’s holding firm to her position that contact with them is a betrayal and the equivalent of having an affair. I’m holding to my position that it’s perfectly reasonable. She screams in my face and calls me a horrible person for not thinking the same way she does. I silently, secretly shake my head and come here for a sanity check. We go to sleep next to each other and wake up and try again.

This cycle will end soon. And I will need to be the one to end it.

Oh God! the "I just can't do this" when things are going great, it's like a knife in the heart. We are there with you.

Maybe it would help to see a pattern of this. Could it be that during the times the two of you are relaxed and without distractions that her feelings of resentment come out? There may not even be a good reason for them- they are just there- and tend to be projected on the issue of the moment- talking to your mom. But that may not be the cause- the cause may be her own feelings projected on to the reason. Solve the "reason" but the feelings are still there and another "reason" takes their place. Before the mom issue- there was the ring. You solved the ring- you bought it. It may have brought a reprieve, but how long did that last? Did it solve the issue?

There may be no resolution of the issue with your FOO- because that may not be the actual problem- just the projected focus on it and the difference in realities. If you go along with hers- you are giving up your version of reality and your value system: it is OK for an adult to have contact with his parents, in fact, it is a good thing to do- a kindness as cutting them off would be hurtful to them.

exactly. i got the "knife" this week too. i wish i had the chance to mend things. i feel so sad and lost.

Hey DB, Any ideas on how to handle this family issue? It is so unfathomably unreasonable to ask a person not to talk to their own family! I am so sorry she puts this pressure on you. I wonder if in a way it is just... .is it just something that she knows you won't give up and since she may "want" an ongoing unsolvable fight it makes her feel justified to be angry all the time? Who knows! :) I am trying to imagine what I'd do if someone asked that of me. I'd naturally want to reason with them, but since we know that is not an option... .what do you do on this ya think? Just not JADE? 

Notwendy is getting at the very thing that I was trying to point out.

There is some fear behind her demand. Until the two of you manage that fear, this is going to keep occurring.

Pearls- that is a good thought. I've dealt with the "push the boundaries" as "proof that you love me" thing in my marriage. The same result- it didn't work. Drop one boundary- then the next, then the next. It didn't solve the problem, and I was miserable.

With BPD mom it is a little of this as well as the challenge. She seems to enjoy being able to do this- push boundaries until we give up ( which we don't anymore). Maybe a sense of control? IDK.

The only thing I do know from observation is that it may give a temporary reprieve, but it doesn't stop. One boundary to the next.

The solution for me was "tough love". That may not work with everyone, but it was the way I was able to hold on to me during the difficult moments where my own reality felt challenged. IMHO, I think we have to be the emotional leaders in the relationship, with love- hold on to reality or live in the "feelings are fact" world.

On the break up with your family issue - teens can be  a challenge  and they can speak their minds.  If a pwBPD doesn't like the intrusion of family members, just imagine a teen in the house. My mother told me I was the reason for the problems in my parent's marriage. I graduated early from high school and left for college. I really believed that their marriage problems would be solved once I left. I only learned later from a sibling that they were not.

So the main point is still- projections of the feelings are behind the "reasons". Solving the "reason" - not speaking to your mother doesn't solve the problem because it isn't the reason in the first place.

Daddy Bear,

 
One of our biggest fights where I was actually hit multiple times and my phone destroyed.  It happened at night when I was sleeping that my wife was going through my phone and read a text to my mom where I ended the text saying "Love you".  She started hitting me and took my phone and kept smashing it on my night stand.  She started stating that I was having sex with my mom.  She got graphic in detail (rated x graphic). 

It seemed to her love is a 0 some game.  That is if love was 100 pts... .  If I expressed love to my mom (ie 20 pts of love) then that meant I could only give her the rest of the (80 pts of love).  This became more complicated with the kids.  As if I expressed love to our kids (reading to the kids at night, going to games, etc) then this meant fewer points of love to my wife.  So any attention not showed on my wife in her eyes was a type of betrayal.  She would do whatever she could do wrestle that back (threaten divorce, yell, scream, put down, call names, micro manage, etc). 

What is the reason why behind all that?  I am not really sure.  But it seems it is a pattern in many of these relationships which maybe the 'why' is simply the mental illness.  If that is the case, then it changes the the way I approach it and understand.  That is, I did not cause it, I can not control it, I can not cure it.  From that point of view, I can take the appropriate actions which is best for me

It all goes back to the fear of abandonment.  The Zero Sum Love idea ties very much into that.  If you love you Mom, or anyone who, yes, in even a perverse way, can be seen as a potential competition for love and affection, it's triggering.

You are to be isolated, and only give love and affection to them, so you can "make" them feel all better. 

It's far easier to focus on something like "you talked to your mom" rather than say "I'm terrified you will leave me, so I act crazy, some very small part of me registers this is crazy and I worry you will tell you mom, and she will tell you I'm crazy and to leave me, so you can't talk to her, or anyone else." 

Also, throw in this for thought.  A pwBPD often (not always) came from a home that nurtured the BPD.  That usually includes abuse and/or neglect.  When we think of sexual abuse, we kinda think of very overt things.  Male family members sneaking into young female family member beds, etc.  I found through this board that I am a survivor of "covert" sexual abuse, in addition to all other BPD wonders.   It was never anything you'd see on an After School Special.  Mom and Dad just had no appropriate boundaries about sex, adult content, or adult conversations in front of me.  I think my mother may have been abused in some way     because she was obsessed with the idea of ME being raped, and decided I needed the birds and the bees talk at age 5.  The rented stipping contest videos and watched them with me in the room.  They joked openly in crude ways about sex, when I was age 10 and under.  Mom overshared about her and Dad's relationships, my father's trips to strip clubs, and then came the weird, "emotional incest" where I was more of an emotional confidant for Dad than Mom at times.  My mother saw me as competition at times for Dad, and even made veiled comments (that only made sense years later) about how she worried he'd want to sleep with me    .  Dad making comments about how he "made me to have big hips on purpose", and to "walk like I've got a pair (of boobs)".  All in all it was a funky, weird, messed up Karpman Triangle of dysfunction. 

So, if one of our pwBPD grew up in a disturbing but not obviously abusive environment like that, the idea your own mother could actually be a sexual and emotional competitor could potentially make a lot of sense to a disordered mind. 

It's just an idea.

Also on the thread of the fear of abandonment being the underlying issue, and this was the case with my x, if I talked to my family, they would find out how she acted and treated me and they wouldn't like her.

I never got the impression that she was afraid that they would talk me into leaving her. It was more about how they would view her and whether or not they would embrace her as part of the family.

Islme- you brought up something I also can identify with. Poor boundaries include poor sexual boundaries. I was not touched physically but my mother shared TMI with me about her sex life with my father  .


I have no proof but I suspect from her behavior that my mother was sexually abused.

Now that you think of it, it would make sense that she might think my father was also doing the same with me, but thank goodness he wasn't. Ugh, never thought about that.

What she was jealous of was that I was able to have conversations with my father that were not about her, or her feelings. I might be sharing something I learned at school with him and he would be genuinely interested in what I had to say.

My H has had feelings of jealousy that seem out of proportion to the reality, but thankfully he can identify them as not rational. Still, he does get upset when he hears me on the phone with a sibling or a close friend. It seems as if he feels it is taking something away from him, but it is not.  I think we can care about people in different ways- love our parents, siblings, children and have it not be anything like marital love. But maybe someone who has poor boundaries or who grew up in a family with poor boundaries could see it otherwise. Yet, eliminating these relationships doesn't solve the problem.

 I am always amazed at how supportive everyone is here. I can’t tell you how much this has helped.

We are going to bed calm and more or less at baseline tonight. It’s been a really touch and go 24 hours, but it’s clear my wife’s emotions have calmed and now we’re communciating much better.

 The key issue is unchanged, though - my FoO and specifically my mother is a threat that can not be allowed into our marriage, she says. Absolutely no contact is the only viable path. And it’s wrong of me to WANT such a toxic person so really it’s not my mothers fault at all. It’s my fault.

The discussion about sexual abuse, past experiences with incest, inappropriate or missing boundaries, parents who are complicit - this ALL applies to my situation. Personally, my memory is that my parents had very appropriate boundaries around sexual behavior. However, I think both my father and my mother had severe problems in their family of origin. I have been told my grandmother on my fathers side was probably a pwBPD. I also know that a cousin has been diagnosed.

In any case, the idea that my mother wants a romantic relationship with me is overblown at best, and complete nonsense most likely. I AM a severe codependent caretaker though, and I’ve always been that way with my mother. I’m absolutely sure my wife is picking up on this.

Alright, going to try and sleep. I hope I’m not back online again tonight.

Hey DB, As hard as it all is now... .I must admit I feel a bit envious that you even have a chance to speak to her and work things out, as nearly impossible as this FoO issue is since there is no compromise on it. Glad to see the updates, hoping for the best! 

In any case, the idea that my mother wants a romantic relationship with me is overblown at best, and complete nonsense most likely. I AM a severe codependent caretaker though, and I’ve always been that way with my mother. I’m absolutely sure my wife is picking up on this.



That still doesn't make your mother the problem. It's your co-depedency and this will happen to some extent in all your relationships.

One motivation for me to deal with my own co-depedency was to be a better parent. I knew it would help with my marriage but also that it would help with all relationships.  These issues are intergenerational and children learn by example. I wanted to break the cycle that I grew up in rather than perpetuate it.

Your wife has been resistant to you getting counseling and help. So it's not just your mother and your FOO. It's anyone who may get your time and attention to some extent. But counseling may be the key to improving things.

Your wife does not need to have input about your counseling. That is a personal situation. I don't think it would be a good idea to hide it from her, but you can make an appt, tell her you are going to discuss your family of origin relationships.  

She won't like it, but you can take a stand for your own mental health. Saying it is for your family ( mother) dynamics may make it feel less threatening to your wife, but you can deal with all topics one on one and confidentially with a T.

IMHO, there isn't much change without personal change. Your wife isn't going to change and neither will your mother, but you can work on your own positive change.

Some things to think about:

It is said that when we see a quality in someone else that really irritates us it is because it reminds us about something about us we don't like.

We are attracted to, and attract, people who "match" our emotional make up in some way and this emotional make up is influenced by our FOO. We are also attracted to people who engage in relationship dynamics that feel familiar to us.

I often wondered what the "match" was between me and my H. His mother seemed so giving and self sacrificing, and mine was self centered and verbally/emotionally abusive. The common link is co-dependency. After learning about it and observing my MIL, she is co-dependent. My FIL had anger issues, but we didn't see them because MIL managed him through her co-dependency.

But the other side of co-dependency is resentment on the part of the person who is co-dependent and the recipient who in a way feels smothered, managed, and manipulated. Co-dependency is manipulation with kindness- I will keep you calm by emotionally caretaking you- but it isn't good for either person.

I had two role models growing up- and I didn't want to be like my mother, so I became co-dependent like my father. My H and I "matched" emotionally. He was loved by a co-dependent mother. I got some love from my co-dependent father. This had to influence the ways we felt love.

If codependent caretaking is how your wife "experienced " love ( and she does experience it from you) and she sees you doing this with your mother, it may register as the same kind of relationship she has with you. She wants to be your focus of co-dependency. (but - if you are co-dependent with people you love you will also be with your own D. She's cute and cuddly now, but one day she will be a grown woman- and your wife may perceive your affection with your D in the same way she sees your affection with her).

When your wife sees you being co-dependent with others, it will irritate her because pwBPD are also co-dependent in ways. It is hard to look at oneself and people tend to be irritated at traits they see in themselves. For someone with BPD the solution may be to ban that person. But it doesn't solve the issue because the problem isn't the other person.

My mother has a friend who has issues with alcohol and her husband is an enabler/codependent. It's interesting to hear her talk about this couple. She is critical of the same issues that went on in her own marriage- but she doesn't seem to see the connection.

We all tend to revert back to our own FOO dynamics when we are with our families. I can see my H doing this- and it feels irritating. But I don't insist he cut off his FOO, and he doesn't insist I cut off mine- no matter how they are. This is boundaries. His relationship with his FOO is his to manage and vice versa. His mother may be co-dependent but she is a good person and would be hurt, terribly, by such an action. I can't even imagine it. I don't even cut off my contact with my own mother although I keep an emotional distance for my own sake. There are situations where no contact is necessary for people dealing with abuse. Your mother hasn't done anything at this level to warrant you cutting contact with her.

I know you hear what your wife wants but constantly giving her what she wants without checking it with your own sense of values and boundaries is not a good solution for the long run.

OK, timeout everyone.  Unless I missed it, I don't think there was any mention of what kind of costume DB's daughter wore last night.

DB, amidst all the turbulence, were you able to get a few Halloween moments with your daughter?  Did she look cute?  What did she wear?

WW

Thank you, WW! You're absolutely right. D4 is a wonderful, innocent, "cute and cuddly" little girl just like Notwendy says. I spend as much time as I possibly can with her, and last night was no exception. After a quick Trunk or Treat session, D4 was "greeter in chief" at the front door - she handed out candy, talked to all the bigger kids, told them she thought their costumes were great, asked them their names... .with complete confidence and uninhibited joy. It's amazing how social and friendly she is. It's so wonderful to be with her.

pearlsw - I totally get what you're saying - the opportunity to communicate in some way gives our relationship a chance for improvement. I truly appreciate every new opportunity to improve things once we get back to baseline.

The thing is, our communication has been completely dysfunctional for a very long time. For this reason especially, the times I DO have to work things out are often wasted by arguments and hard feelings, which brings us quickly OUT of baseline, and then requires a lot of emotional energy, and the cycle repeats.

We woke up this morning without a fight, which is always a good start. But throughout the morning there were some "flare ups" - it was clear that she was barely holding things together. Then, after we got back from picking up D4 from school, I stepped on one huge eggshell. It's hard to explain exactly what the eggshell was, but basically I said something that ended up triggering feelings in her that she isn't a good parent. The firestorm of rage included about an hour and a half of the nastiest, cruelest things I've heard. It's not like I've never heard them before, and it's fairly easy for me to see where they come from (I don't take them personally.) But I didn't stand up for myself, either. I can't. And I REALLY don't want to come back around and address them later, because, well, what's the point?

So I just re-read the article on Don't be Invalidating (https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating) - and I think the part I have the most problem with is this:

This part is KEY for me - sometimes, I can find a validation target and we can work through the conversation pretty well. But more times than not, in order to even get a single word in edgewise and make ANY progress towards achieving "baseline," I do nothing BUT Validate the Invalid. I am the farthest thing from being true and authentic. I am absolutely sacrificing myself for the benefit of my wife.

So... .how do I work on this? What's the secret I'm missing here? Is it just accepting that some arguments can't be productive?

This is pretty much the key reason I'm thinking this relationship is doomed - if I can't find a way to be true to myself, then I might as well not even exist inside the relationship.

Oh, your Halloween sounded so fun! How fun to watch a little one give out the candy! I totally blew it over here. It is not really a thing here, but a few people do it, but in all my years living here no one ever came to the door. I live in a tall building with locks so it must have been one of the immediate neighbors, but you never see the people! But some kids knocked but I had nothing at all to give them - I didn't know they would come. I burst into tears after an already emotional day and was embarrassed. I will always have Halloween candy from now on wherever I am! I'd rather gain a few pounds from gorging on it if no one comes than be caught empty handed ever again! It somehow breaks the sacred deal that when you grow up you'll give other little ones candy when they ask. Ouch!

This is a tough issue "I am absolutely sacrificing myself for the benefit of my wife." I used to feel like that at times and could not find myself... .started to feel I didn't even exist at times. I was lucky for awhile in that we didn't have a lot of daily problems - I am just cursed with the extreme break up stuff. For awhile I am awesome and then I am the "source of all his suffering" and must be thrown overboard! For the longest time I suspected he was bipolar because of the way these phases worked. I still don't know for sure what all he has. I think you can have these cycling issues with many disorders... .that is why I still wonder if I am using the right tools. I think a lot of the tools can apply across the board, but I do wonder at times if they are workable when someone has co-morbidities or... .I don't know. I  still have a lot to learn! :) It feels like an ongoing experiment with various techniques... .one that suddenly gets its funding pulled and the lights go off! Then back on! Then back off! :)

I think on our last day I may have blown it on the validation. I was just focused on not JADE-ing. I don't think I offered enough support. He brings up pretty painful topics at times after I think we've set things behind us. Then he started tossing a whole bunch of scattered pieces of garbage from 7 years at me. I should have said more about how I understood that he felt bad. I think I may have shut him off a bit. I want to learn from it not really second guess. I did the best I could in the moment and we'll see what happens... .It's a tough illness. 

Before I learned about not JADE-ing I used to feel like I had to plead a whole case about my entire humanity picking examples from my entire life to prove I was a "good" person. It was exhausting and now I've learned, kinda pointless. :) hahaahaha. Well, some of that stuff works when he is calm, but ah, I felt like I was always on trial for my life trying to prove all kinds of things you can't really prove. Anyway, I just know that I had gotten lazy on my communication through the middle part of the relationship. I shut him down a lot more or walked away and I was not doing the right things to show I cared about his feelings - which was extremely bad form with his BPD traits. It was hard at times because he said such "crazy" stuff. One tactic I was using to warm our relationship back up was bringing a lot of gratitude back into things. He is great about taking out garbage and throwing away really icky stuff in the fridge that makes me gag. Every time he dealt with the garbage I let myself fall back in love with him a little more and gave him a lot of praise and thanks. I never missed a chance to add in love and warmth and kind words. If I knew I was displeased over something I would be careful never to use blame or criticism but find other ways to deliver stuff that kept us on the same side instead of making him feel small and like a guy who is constantly making mistakes or disappointing me.

But eventually he suddenly cycled down and now we may get a divorce. One week you are wonder woman the next... .some kind of super villain! :)

What I am learning this week is that I should panic less. It is hard not to contact him. I am afraid without my good input he will slip further away, but... .I am learning to accept that this illness may take him from me and I am less and less afraid. As long as I know I tried my best I'll be able to eventually make peace with it if it ends.

So, hmmm. Validating with these issue about your family? Or validating in general? About the family would you somehow validate a feeling like fear? Or... .? Yeah, and then what? I am not sure either.  What have you said, if you can explain, that made you feel inauthentic?

Oh yes, arguing is not productive. You gotta find a way to rephrase stuff. I see myself wanting to say "You didn't do this or that!" Or "You never X, Y, Z... ." Or "You forgot... .!" Or "You didn't bother to... ." I stop myself and try to find a non-accusatorial way of speaking. "I think we forgot" is much nicer when possible. Also, I have to say just smiling when I speak to him, being very conscious of that made a difference. He was starting to do that more too. He tends to have a serious kind of scary face, but he was just starting to try this out himself, become aware. Always follow those fair fighting rules and then use the tools here and then we just have to see how our experimenting works. Sometimes it just won't work, but I am more at peace knowing I tried.

Hope things are better soon! :)

There are so many pieces to the puzzle, you can't boil it down to just one thing. The two of you have a lot of history and bad habits have been created on both sides. It is going to take some work to untangle everything.

Yes, empathy and validation come into play; but it isn't just what we say, it's how we say things to others. I'm sure that you've seen the How to respond to heightened emotions (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=168004.msg11986938#msg11986938) and the Communicate - Listen and Be Heard (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0) threads. Both offer invaluable insight into ways for us to convey our thoughts to others.

But, I'm wondering if, perhaps, you are struggling with these because you are stuck in the FOG (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0)? I ask because of this statement:


I'm also curious about what a productive argument looks like to you?

pearlsw, I’m really sorry you got caught without candy! I’m sure they understood but I know exactly how you feel. I can’t imagine being an expat on a holiday like that. Do you know which apartment they’re in? Maybe you could drop something off :)

Along the lines of what you said about panic, and to go with Meili’s comment about FOG - yeah, I am caught up in that quite a bit. I’ve mentioned in other threads how frightened I am by conflict. I’m sure it comes from childhood issues but a lot of my childhood is a blank or blurry. Hummm.

A productive argument is when both of us calmly listen to each other’s point of view. We validate each other’s concerns and feelings, and try and look at things from each other’s point of view. Neither of us feels ignored or cut off. This rarely happens. Those two links are really great and I practice them quite a bit. I am getting better but I’m still falling back to old habits too much, especially when sleep deprived.

Something that rarely works but sometimes feels like the only thing I can handle is walking away. Respectfully of course. But exiting a super hot argument or at least taking a short breather is sometimes the only thing that gets things back on somewhat of a good path.

Getting out of the FOG is definitely not easy when you're still entangled in the r/s. The good news is that it can be done. This is one of those places that Mindfulness is really helpful.

If we can learn to pay attention to what our bodies are telling us, we can learn to change the thoughts and behaviors. My T gave me a great analogy of this:

If you picture a car, the front two wheels are thoughts and behaviors. The back two wheels are feelings and emotions. On any car, the front two wheels direct where the car is going. The back two wheels just follow. So, if we change either our thoughts or our behaviors, the feelings and emotions will follow and also change. For far too many of us, the thoughts and behaviors have been stuffed into the truck and we are letting the rear wheels dictate our direction.

I had a moment where physics jumped into my head and I thought about over-steer (that's when the rear end of the car slides around and changes the direction of the front). But, then it occurred to me that over-steer only happens when we lose control because we are not paying attention and keeping the things that we can control under control.

So, being Mindful and changing your behaviors will cause the feelings and emotions to follow. If you stuff your steering mechanisms into the trunk, you are setting yourself up for a collision. You don't have to collide with conflict.

I hope that makes sense at least a little bit.

The firestorm of rage included about an hour and a half of the nastiest, cruelest things I've heard. It's not like I've never heard them before, and it's fairly easy for me to see where they come from (I don't take them personally.) But I didn't stand up for myself, either. I can't. And I REALLY don't want to come back around and address them later, because, well, what's the point?


I don't think it is necessary to address each point and especially when someone is dysregulated. They may not even remember the stuff they said. It is hurtful to hear, but it is mostly a release of triggered emotions- like emotional vomit. She feels better afterwards ( like a kid with a stomach ache who throws up and feels better) and you don't- as you have listened to them.

Validation is a good technique but (IMHO) I also don't think it is necessary to validate every feeling or each word. Sometimes they are just upset- and need to vent.

One thing I do during these times is pay attention to my feelings- if I am feeling upset, then this is not a time for me to communicate. Disengaging - is OK. A simple " I don't feel up to discussing this now" and staying quiet or walking away.

Trying to "talk " out these high emotional triggers may not be effective.

Sometimes you don't know how the words you say will be interpreted- that isn't something you can control. We can't control how someone thinks about things and sometimes it is bizarre, or twisted, like having a sexual relationship with your mother. It's bizarre to come up with that idea out of no evidence. But this kind of thinking is due to the mental disorder- something we can't fix.

My best approach is to recognize it. My own perspective is that they are in victim mode and something said could be seen as "evidence" to them when it isn't. Once my mother was talking about some work being done on her house. I made a suggestion about something to her. In her mind, I told her she wasn't competent and she started screaming at me. That's not what I said- it is what she thought she heard. I found that even the slightest suggestion to her can be interpreted as criticism. A good general rule is to not offer advice to people unless they ask for it, and I keep that in mind with her.

Once they are dysregulating and saying mean things, IMHO, there is no stopping it until it is over. I just disengage somehow and remove myself- either physically or by attention. To me, validation may work at the beginning when there is some distress, but not when it is all out of control. I don't take the mean stuff personally although it isn't comfortable to hear it.

Why you can not stand up for yourself is something to explore. I know that when someone yells at me, I get a PTSD type reaction. It takes me a while to process after that. I have found it is best for me to not react in the moment, but later I may bring something up. I don't agree to anything in the moment. It is best to focus on "I"statements, not "you". " I need to think about this and I will let you know" is a good one and one you may need to repeat over and over again.

Some of my childhood is blank as well. I have a sibling who has vivid memories of things that happened in our childhood and I can not recall them at all. I think we cope with childhood issues differently. It would be interesting to see what happened in your FOO to predispose you to this- not with intent to blame but to learn about yourself. Sometimes it can be intergenerational. Family dynamics can do this. We learn to function in dysfunctional families and then can keep the behaviors. If your parents grew up in dysfunctional homes, then they may have also had a fear of conflict and role modeled this for you. Understanding yourself could help you decide what behaviors you wish to change.

Boundaries are the key--and identifying what can and cannot be controlled.

She is holding firm in her belief. You cannot change her belief. Don't try anymore.

You are holding firm in your belief. She cannot change your belief (unless you let her). Don't let her.

The good news (for you) is that you don't have to convince her she is wrong and you are right. [Bad news is that validation or SET or other tools won't convince her, 'tho]

All you have to do is convince her that you will continue to be in contact with your FOO, regardless of what she believes about it or says about it.

Convince her with your actions: Maintain your r/s with your FOO.

If she files for divorce on grounds of adultery because you are talking to your mother, we can guess how well that is going to work out for her... .you don't have to tell her, let her lawyer or a judge do the talking.



The secret you are missing is what tools are best for what jobs. As the saying goes, if your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Validation is a great tool, and it is most effective when your wife isn't dysregulated and raging. A steady dose of validation (especially at good times) improves relationships and fosters intimacy and trust.

Boundary enforcement is the most effective tool for ending dysregulations and rages. Remove yourself from her presence when she's like that. She will wind down sooner or later. In the meantime, allow her to be angry, just don't let yourself be the target of it.

Validating the invalid doesn't help anything, and you've been in the habit of trying to do it for too long. Not only does it tear you down to do it, but it also helps your wife stay 'stuck' in the same dysfunction pattern and is (effectively) teaching her that verbal abuse of you is effective, and to keep on doing it... .if she turns the volume up enough, she'll get what she demands of you. (Not realizing that she won't be happy or satisfied, and it will be just as bad nearly immediately... .)

Hey DB, good discussion about validating the invalid, and violating your principles to keep things calm.  I have done plenty of that!  It takes a huge toll.  You lose your personhood.  Think of it like this -- every time you do it, you're making a big withdrawal from at least a couple of bank accounts -- your own emotional account, and the account that represents the healthy functioning of the relationship.  When you do it, recognize that you're doing it, and count the cost.  Would I still do it to prevent a meltdown and save a night of trick or treating for a D4?  Almost definitely.  But you can go literally decades stumbling from one event that must be saved through this desperation to another.  Looking at it the other way, work like mad in daily life so you're not doing this -- building up some credit in the bank for you to draw on when you really have to.

WW

So it’s been about a week now, and things aren’t really any better.

Every day it’s about the same: she’s done, she doesn’t need me, etc.

Tonight she laid out a pretty “good” summary of how she thinks / feels about me; she says that when she told me to stop talking to my mother 5 years ago, on account of her being toxic to our relationship, I went on a crusade to destroy her life and I enlisted the help of my father and brothers to make it happen.

I know this is absolutely not true, but I also know that I can’t live with a person who thinks this. And this has been her consistent point of view now for 5 straight years! There have been times where I was able to pull her out of this or convince her I’m not, or maybe she genuinely didn’t believe I was so horrible for periods of time, but it ALWAYS comes back to this.

I’m really beginning to think that I’ve taken this marriage as far as it will go. I suppose that means, what do I have to lose by just standing up for myself and saying “this is what I’ve decided to do.” But I’ve NEVER done that so it’s a pretty hard and scary concept. But like I just said, what do I have to lose?

Anyway, that’s the update. I’ll respond some more directly to some comments tomorrow. I really appreciate what everyone said. This is a really great thread and I really appreciate it. Thank you all.

Hi DaddyBear77,

Just checking in here. I can relate to your pain this week especially! My partner has an uncomfortable set of ideas in his head that he keeps bringing up in one way or another and I too find it hard to be with someone who thinks such things about me. I am doing my best to just depersonalize it, but like you, I can expect to hear this stuff over and over when he can't sleep, begins to ruminate, tips over into obsessive thoughts, then "can't hold himself", then peppers me with pointed questions (that I found nonsensical and useless)... .for years and years.

What's tough to balance is he has some genuine issues, and deserves some room to express his feelings, but sorting that out of the invalid stuff is exhausting... .and repetitive. That is one of the worst parts - like my life is being put on trial over and over and over like some endless loop. I don't want to JADE, but I don't want to bury his feelings... .because they WILL explode at some point. If I ignore his feelings this won't get better, but he can't control his feelings nearly at all so... .it feels like managing an ongoing crisis. Anyway... .still sorting it all out myself... .

So, with "standing up" would you ask for a divorce or something short of that? Or do you mean you will declare this topic done with and let the chips fall where they may? See if she really goes through with her threats?

  I know how hard this is and how exhausting it is... .take care!

Hi, Daddy Bear,

I'm sorry things are this way, how are you feeling? Of course this is scary.

I think we deal with a lot of guilt because one part of us thinks "it would be a relief to stop fighting" It would be hard to move on, but it also would make my life a lot easier". And we've been there standing our ground so long, that we judge ourselves as "not very good people" for thinking that. Or maybe I'm the only one who feels this? And I'm proyecting... .

We judge ourselves harsly, but when I read about other people's experiences, I often think "Oh, dear, you deserve some peace, you earned it, you deserve being with someone who respects you, who makes sense, who values your efforts, sacrifices and good heart. Who supports you back, who also takes care of you when you are down... ." But with ourselves, we think we are being "bad", or at least that that thought is very dangerous to our life.

When our loved one thinks something about us that is not true, everything after that is interpreted based on a lie, any event after that either confirms their version of ourselves, or puzzles them and then they think we are inconsistent, or a stranger to them ("I cannot read you, I don't know what's going on in your mind, I don't know you at all... .". I couldn't sleep last night because of this. How can someone know you if they don't believe you? When I try to explain how that is harming the relationship, I get the "Of course, you are a saint and it's all in my head, thank you very much, how dare you!... ." scorn.

I don't know if this happens to you a lot. In this case, she believes you did something like a plot to destroy her life. You did nothing of the sort, you are no saint either, not perfect, like all of us. But when you try to defend yourself, in their B/W thinking, if you are not the saint, then they are right, you did all the wrong things they thought you did. What you try to say is that what you did is more normal, understandable, easy, than the evil plan that makes no sense. You are not trying to convince her that you are a Saint. You know the truth is way less hurtful than what she thinks, but she can't change her mind.  Am I in the ball park?

In any case, best of luck, mate.

I’m really beginning to think that I’ve taken this marriage as far as it will go. I suppose that means, what do I have to lose by just standing up for myself and saying “this is what I’ve decided to do.” But I’ve NEVER done that so it’s a pretty hard and scary concept. But like I just said, what do I have to lose?


This is scary. Maybe word it in a different way and see how that looks?

What do I have to lose by not standing up for myself and just doing what she wants me to do and not resist it? I could just keep on doing what I have been doing and give up my own ideas and agree with her. How is this working for me so far? Is she happy? Is our marriage better? Has it fixed the problem? Am I happy?


What do I have to gain by not standing up for myself? What do I have to gain by standing up for myself?

*mod*

This topic is locked due to length, but has been continued here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317004.0