BPDFamily.com

I just can't tell... .I am in "breakup" limbo. I wish this wasn't happening, but... .I know that changes nothing. I feel a bit paralyzed. I don't know if I should really be preparing for the end of the relationship or not. Ya know? I really don't want to throw in the towel, things were doing so well and I felt like I could see more hope and possibility, but it is tough when you are pushed away so hard, and so much. I knew it would cycle down again at some point, but I didn't expect it at this time. It was more sudden and quietly snuck up on me somehow... .

It doesn't make sense (to me) to do a break up when someone is dysregulating. But... .I guess the way his mind works he can talk himself into or out of the entire relationship. It just makes me sad. Having no friends to just sit with and have a cup of tea... .this life is pretty empty as it is, but when he's gone... .oh, is it empty. I can't fully function. I want to, but... .this is a lot to bear over and over. He cut down on this, and seemed even to stop using this particular strategy, but his mind eventually goes back to the same old damaging stuff when it breaks down like this. He hadn't gone totally nuclear in many months, just short mini-meltdowns.

He engaged a bit via email today, it felt like he was indirectly wanting reassurance although he was not nice at all, but in the end was just angry and closed off. I sent nice, warm notes and reminded him of previous breakthroughs he's made on this stuff, but his mind is not clear at all. I am the source of all his "emotional pain" he says. I have caused some, yes, but he really has never let me have any stretch of time I could believe this relationship was on since he often goes nuclear like this. He has been turning it off and on like a light switch for years. It's like the damage got built in, and all my hard work to mitigate it... .is like a sand castle.

He usually does not like distance, even at these times. He pushes me away, but later he confesses he liked to hear from me and "can't live without me."

I feel anxious and... .   
I just accept him for being this way, hard as it is.  I hope he cycles back to baseline soon.  

What do you usually do during this part of the cycle? How do you adjust your brain to all this? Which future do you plan for? One? Both? I feel like I'm dropping all my tools while walking in a dark forest... .

Having endured hundreds of these cycles, the one resounding lesson has been that the cooler I can play it, the less reward she gets for this dysfunctional behavior, the less damage there is and the less wear and tear on me.  When my pwBPD is engaging in damaging behavior, it is not my job to make her feel better or soothe her, nor is it a good idea for me to chase her to try to get her to come back to the relationship, to make promises to modify my behavior, etc.

This is a very confusing thing to go through.  It took me a long while to realize that my wife is not being manipulative.  She actually believes each and every time of the hundreds of times, that this time it is for real.  Since she believes, she is surprisingly convincing at getting me to believe it, even the 101st time she does it (OK, it's probably been many more than that).

So what do I do with a breakup threat?  I don't react with anger.  I do everything I can to avoid expressing fear, and am usually successful.  Calm.  I do nothing to call my love or care into doubt, but I also do nothing positive that would reward the behavior.  I acknowledge her feelings without agreeing with them.  This can be tricky.  If she says I've never given her anything, I don't defend myself.  I say, "Hey, I know you feel like you're not getting enough.  I want you to be happy and get everything you need."  She'll try to suck me into a long conversation, and I gently but firmly resist.  She'll insist that I start planning for divorce.  I'll mention that this has come up before, and feelings have changed after some time, so my plan is to just be steady for a while, let her have some space, and if she still feels the same way in two weeks, we can talk seriously about it (pick a period of time that you think will get you safely out of the current dysregulation period, but hopefully not into the middle of the next one  

During one of these periods, I'll often get text messages from her, or calls at work where she wants to have a circular conversation in the middle of the day.  I answer the text messages that are reasonable (giving brief and friendly responses on family logistics) and just simply ignore any crazy ones.  I finally got to the point where I'll gently hang up on a call at work if it gets circular and starts to get inappropriately long, after giving her a couple of calm warnings.  When she's heavily dysregulated these days, I simply don't pick up the phone at work.  I certainly never send her any messages reassuring her, making apologies, etc. unless there's actually something real I screwed up, and if so, I'll make it short and sweet and do it once.

It is crucial to avoid doing anything that gives them a payoff for making breakup threats.  We've all made that mistake, and it makes things worse!  Minimize communication.  If they want the benefits of a relationship, they have to be in it!

WW

Wentworth, I need to print this out and put it on my wall. It's so very tough to remind yourself of this. In the past, I would always beg and plead for her to communicate with me. I would apologize not even knowing what I was apologizing for. No more!

Right now, my spouse isn't talking to me. When I say "not talking", I mean she doesn't even respond when I say "Good Morning" or "That really looks good what you're eating there". I've tried to play it cool as a cucumber. That's driven her even crazier.

Yesterday, I legitimately wasn't feeling well. She hadn't talked to me (even uttered a responsive word) for a couple of days. She was getting frustrated because I was reading to the girls in a silly voice. REally, she was frustrated because her silent treatment wasn't getting the response she wanted. I now know that.

The girls and I were having fun and laughing, she wanted people to feel her misery. So, she kept trying to engage me with insults. "That's some great parenting you have there <dripping with nastiness>. I just kept reading. Later, "I don't even know why I give a #@%$ about you anymore". Just kept on smiling and talking to my kids. Isn't this some beautiful weather we are having, girls!

But, I don't know how long I can go on like this. I am *not* going to apologize when it's always such a shifting target of anger. I will talk if/when she comes around. I will listen - to a point. At another point in my weekend, she blurted out "My mother is having a surgery, but I don't want to talk to you about it because you are untrustworthy". Whatever that means. OK, so I won't talk to you about it. I simply said "sorry to hear about your mother." I'm not going to go "tell me what I did wrong... .please talk to me" again. That has gotten me nowhere.

Walkinthepark, you've got the idea.  Keep it up.

WW

Hey Wentworth and walkinthepark, 

I loved reading this discussion! I dunno why but it made me feel so good to have this distraction from my woes! :)

I hear ya'll on the not giving them this... .but I wonder if things do vary? I am not begging or pleading or even apologizing I should say. I just say nice, short loving things so the connection is not broken. I don't know if this what I did pre-discovering this site and if I should toss all my old strategies with "breakups". He has said in the past that this helps him. I don't feel crappy doing it. It doesn't feel like a reward. I am considering going silent tomorrow based on what I am hearing here. We don't have kids together so there is no reason we have to talk for these two weeks and at that point who knows what he will think. I just feel like it is harder for him to attack a nice person. I don't attack him or threaten him ever... .though I am willing to defend my life if he makes threats. (Not physical ones I mean.) Legal stuff, or going after my family or friends in any way in order to pressure me to get what he wants.

My experience in the past is that if I am out of sight/out of mind he goes totally cold on me. If I keep the door open he might, might soften up at some point and maybe even calm down faster. For me not talking at all, especially since he left, is too much like punishing him with silent treatment. I don't want to stop talking, but... .I have no idea at the moment what up from down is.

I was thinking of going away for the weekend to another part of this country, but my old school friend is in Spain this weekend with her husband so that's a no go. Anyway, it is always hard to explain my h's illness and she freaks out whenever I mention what he is really like so I don't like to do that anymore. I almost forget I have this friend because we've been a bit out of touch in the last year, and I have been so swamped with my husband's stuff, but she is a nice person. We have to communicate in my 2nd and 3rd languages so that makes explaining complicated stuff a bit of a challenge too! Anyway, thanks to you both for your insights and the chance to learn from you!

pearlsw I hope you can spend some this time meaningfully and do something to enjoy yourself. These times of limbo can be more frightening than the explosions that create them.


Wentworth thank you for this. The last real conversation we had (besides her taking a moment to tell my son how selfish dad is and how we can't be like him) was more or less deciding to separate and her move out. Silent treatment since then and blocked by her on messenger. I was exhausted with the relationship myself in that moment and more or less agreed to it, like I used to when we had this argument when we were younger. But I'm pretty sure its not going to happen. Trying to just ride it and and keep living during the silent period.

pearlsw, of course he likes it when you send him messages.  If he sends you a really nice message, you can respond in kind.  Is he sending you nice messages?

He left you.  You feel like the cold one if you don't send him nice messages?  You are in fact rewarding him for bad behavior.

Sorry to be blunt, but want to offer candor in this case.

WW

I hear ya, but I just believe in leaving the door open and his feedback in the past has always been that this helped. I like him to know his emotions are safe with me. I have had "breakups" with contact and no contact from his side. The ones where some contact was maintained went better. The no contact ones are more stark and have worse consequences. I dunno. We'll see. I hear ya.

I am honestly fairly sure this would have already been put back together if he didn't have the coincidence of being at this person's big house that day and her doing her "instant divorce" thing/spin rather than being a real friend and sending him home.

Him being away is not gonna make things better for either of us in my opinion. It is just prolonging his black phase and feeding it. Here I can help heal and bring him back to baseline - that is my view of his version of this illness.

High five, pearlsw. 

Have you read this yet? www.https://bpdfamily.org/2010/10/partner-have-borderline-personality.html?m=1

I found it to be most helpful.

Great find, walkinthepark247!

Hey Pearl, can you check in with us?  How are you feeling emotionally and physically?  How are you eating and sleeping?  Any success with self care (bike rides, walks, etc.)?

Are there any local domestic abuse centers where you can get face-to-face with a person who would understand?  I know this is a hard step, especially if you're shy and working in a third language, but it is a super important way to get support and well past due i.m.h.o.  Are there any possibilities you can get to?

WW

Ya'll are great! Thanks for sending that. I had seen the term used by members, but not seen that page I think. I am a bit wedded to my pre-BPD family efforts, but I will try this on like a coat today and see how it goes.

I am not eating enough. I need to. I guess I have a birthday month to plan! I am gonna start on Thursday by having overpriced Asian fast food in the city. :) I am gonna wear one of the cute bargain Italian sweaters I bought a few weeks ago for work and haven't taken out for a spin yet- try to look nice and feel "new" and special. :)  On Friday I will talk with my student who is a beauty consultant and just... .just make her laugh and try on free products after class. She has great skin! I will bask in the glow of it! :D I will live vicariously through her plan to ditch work and travel to another continent next year for a few months - just really soak it in and share her happiness. I will buy something birthday macarons - make that my birthday cake. And... .Saturday and Sunday... .well Sunday I can sit in one of the churches in my village. Set an alarm and rise with the early birds and just feel the uplift of their warm company. Saturday I can pick someone in the States to call, is that something good? Look, my life is shaping up already! I will stop watching news in English. It's just stressing me out more... .fueling anxiety... .and switch to one of the four other languages I like to listen to and know a bit of. There we go. I have a future! :)

Thanks for the good company!

Hi everyone,

I am feeling a bit overwhelmed with all that is happening/not happening in my life at the moment. I am very isolated in my regular life so this is the only place I have to talk it over besides calling hotlines where they listen more than talk and the clock is ticking the whole time. I can't afford online therapy at the moment and that isn't enough either even if I could afford it.

I feel a little caught between the old me before I came to the site (and how I coped with all of this then when I was more in the dark about it), and the new me that I am rebuilding. The confusion part of this for me is still a factor, even while I am learning to see and understand his behaviors more clearly than before.

I get pulled all around trying to remind myself about the simple why's and how's of all this as I am living through the worst days of it. Even after all these years his extreme black and white thinking, impulsivity, catastrophizing, nuclear breakups that seem real, and might, who knows finally be real, I am still feeling knocked pretty low by this massive mood swing of his. 

I know that BPD is different from person to person... .you see a lot of variety here... .and my guy may have other issues besides BPD traits, but... .this blindsiding a few days ago is hard. It is hard being left alone with my own thoughts and worries about the future. Can someone just please remind me, help me ground myself, as to how we went from him being incredibly happy to now threatening divorce, again? Can you please share your go-to links on the site that you turn to time and again in times of crisis? Or things you like to tell yourself when it gets so dark and uncertain?

I wish I had a crystal ball so I could just see how this will play out so I could plan for that reality. The not knowing makes me very nervous.

Hi pearlsw, even with all of the tools and changes in mindset and strength we may build, receiving this kind of treatment from the ones we love is painful, no matter how well we understand their illness. From reading your posts these last few weeks I can see the tremendous amount of work you've done, and I can understand how to still be put in this position after all you've given can be overwhelming. Even if we can't see the future, we deserve to know whether our partners will be in it with us for the long haul.

Right now I have been in silent treatment for nearly 3 days after a threat of separation / divorce, and it has been a very long time since I've been in this spot. I do not know when she will talk to me or what she will say when she does. But I do not believe she will leave. I think she is processing things in her own way and will eventually start talking to me as though none of this happens, perhaps yelling at me one more time about it and putting it down until the next eruption. I believe, as the slightly more stable one, it is in my hands to set the course of where our family goes by choosing empathy, self reflection, and hope over ultimatums and court battles. I do not think she has the consistency right now to follow through on such a life upheaval. I don't know how much if any of this reflects in your relationship with your SO, but I hope it helps.       

hi thegoodsoldier! Oh yes, this helps so much. Thank you! It is always so sadly comforting to hear when we are in the same situations. This breakup feels more real than previous ones, but indeed you never know. And my guy is similarly positioned - he can't afford this life upheaval right now. He has been on pins and needles of his already 8 year legal battle with his ex and found out a few months ago he may have to cough up an extra $50,000 or so to her. I am not sure I have this amount correct, but I know it is big. He may have to bargain more of the little time he has with his kids as it is to get her to "forgive" the amount. It is a big blow for him after years of fighting and always losing to her. My heart aches for him over this and I had been doing all I could to ease the financial woes and am happy to do more if we are together! Heck I used to budget down the quarter with my first boyfriend, that's okay! I have little need for extravagance. I like to be creative and do free stuff. To me just making jokes and laughing is what makes life rich. He used to like that about me - last week! :)

I have ways to slow down the divorce process to give me time to get a better sense of if this is the right direction to go or not. If he truly wants one that is okay, but I want it to be as civil as possible. I don't feel it makes sense to agree to this stuff right now though when he just flipped so fast like this. It would be nice if others in his life and understood, but they don't are feeding his negativity - and that is not good for him either, but I let go of that. It is beyond my control or desire to control.

Oh yes, these are the exact words for the role I try to take on! Yes, I had not been in this spot for quite awhile too! I can relate to you! I expected more dysregulation in life, sure, but he kept saying so many times he "had learned his lesson" on not making the nuclear divorce threat so I had gotten a bit comfortable I must admit. He and I both had a hard and painful life lesson on this! I knew the odds on that not being used by him were not 0%, but I didn't expect at this time.

Please keep checking in with updates on your situation! I want to know how it is going and give you support in return as well! :)

"I don't feel it makes sense to agree to this stuff right now though when he just flipped so fast like this."


But, how can you live like this long-term? I'm partially speaking to myself when I write this. We moved into a lovely home 4 years ago. When I moved in, I joked that I would be buried in the woods behind the house. Instead, I have faced constant uncertainty about my living situation for at least 5 years. We've been married 7. When we moved into this house, I thought that the tide had finally turned and surely she would feel more secure. Nope. Things have only gotten progressively worse. Once again, I'm not telling you to stay or leave. But, you need to focus more on your happiness. Your partner/spouse may NEVER be able to provide you with the emotional security YOU ALSO deserve.

Read this as well: https://bpdfamily.org/2010/12/leaving-person-with-borderline_28.html?m=1

Regarding the house statement above, I've been living under the false assumption spelled out in the article # 3: Belief that the relationship problems are caused by you or some circumstance

The hardest one for me to accept has been # 5: Belief that things will return to "the way they used to be". But, I need to hear it.

Once again, I'm not telling you to stay or leave. But, you need to read the "Ten Beliefs That Can Get You Stuck" in that article. I need to read them again for the umpteenth time as well.

One more from that article: "... .the fact is, the actions - all of them - are your truth."

Reminded me of this quote I read recently: “Nothing we see or hear is perfect. But right there in the imperfection is perfect reality.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

 

Hi walkinthepark247,

Thank you very much for stopping by and sharing your thoughts and kindness! I checked out the link you sent and took a look at it with fresh eyes.

I can't say I relate to all of it, but it does make you think! :)

I had been practicing "Radical Acceptance" and so I think I didn't struggle over most of the things on this list. I don't see him as the key to my happiness. I met him late in life so I had a lot of life before he came into mine and happiness is definitely something I feel personally responsible for - and don't put on him or a job or anything outside myself.

I also realized a long time ago we don't experience the relationship in the same way or even have common sets of coping skills. I also don't think the problems were caused by me or some circumstance. My mistake was attributing his dysfunctional behavior to his past divorce and custody battle and lingering issues around that.

I thought he would find balance eventually because his behavior was related to that I thought. At some point I recognized it was extreme behavior and it was related to an illness. I don't really try to please him based on that, I just try to be a good partner overall and use the skills I've learned here that may work better for his type of illness. I've always put effort into my communication skills so adapting to his special needs is fine for me, and I enjoy it a bit actually. I like to learn new things and hold myself to high standards with communication. When in a white phase he is quite happy about all I have to offer and I feel good too.

For now it is a bit of an experiment and I am still learning to let go of some strategies that may not work. I try to be careful with one size fits all kinds of advice. Maybe one thing will work for me and not someone else, or work once until he finds a way around it somehow. Who knows. I feel like I am trying to be an informed and loving caretaker and not dwell on past hurts. But he does at times and I take that seriously and that may ultimately end things for us.

There is no idealized past I am trying to get back to. I actually think there are better days ahead of us than behind us, but we'll see! I also know that the loving person he was last week may never come back. But thank goodness I found this site so I am not gonna be as "beat up" about as I would have been otherwise if we break. I don't find that as confusing as I used to. :)

Oh, this is an interesting one! We may break up and there will be no closure it says. Ouch. Well good to know and be ready for! He broke up with me once for about a month, month and a half once and that was pretty hard, but I made it through - but I had a good job at that time and a lot to distract me. I am sure the support on this site will get me through this better than any other resource I have so I have a lot less fear than I would have otherwise. Thank goodness!

No, I don't think absence makes the heart go fonder with him. Nope, unfortunately! He's broken up with me enough for me to recognize this. This breakup already feels different because he is more quiet and distant than in the breakups he's done for a long time. He hasn't been this silent for a long, long time. He just told me the other day he missed me just walking to the other room and has kept me as close as possible for the last weeks. I knew it wouldn't last, and I was a bit worn out by his inability to be alone and perhaps he noticed me wanting a little more time a few more feet away from him, but now he's gone in the extreme opposite direction. Not my fault. It is a glaringly obvious health thing that no one else in his life recognizes. Oh well on that too. If he kicks me out they will push him into the next dysfunctional relationship asap I am sure. I saw that earlier this year. After a day people were already showing him pics of other women and he was already looking. But he will be no better off. And neither will she. It'll last a week til his first break with her and then go on a week by week basis so... .have at it!

:) I am here as a loving and compassionate partner. If he ultimately cannot handle relationships at all and wants to keep finding new women or be single forever that's up to him. If I leave the country that's it for me too. No going back after a giant break. It'll be the final one for me.

Now this one is interesting: that I have become a trigger for his bad feelings and behavior.  That one is pretty sobering and one I am going to think on quite a lot. That is good to know about actually because that might make it easier to go. If I am part of what is making him this ill than I'd nobly bow out. This is a key one for me to consider. :)

And the last one... .that he has seen the light. Nope. I know this is an illness, that he will always have big highs and low lows. At least I know more about what these traits are. For the longest time I wondered if he was bipolar or had ADHD or borderline or all of them or who knows what. One of the best things this site gave me was the chance to focus on the behavior and to use these tools to deal with it as best I can. It no longer mattered to me what the illness was exactly and I felt much more at peace with it. It was shocking at first, sure, and I wondered if I wanted a "lifetime" of this. It is not an easy life. But I feel like I could manage, but ya know... .Who knows. :)

Thanks for sharing that and giving me the chance to sort that stuff a bit!

I pulled this out from the link by walkinthepark247: (thanks again!)

We are breaking up, but not all the way there. I would stay if he wanted to be with me. I am not trying to break up.

"9) Belief that you need to stay to help them.
... .
The fact is, you are no longer in a position to be the caretaker and support person for your BPD partner - no matter how well intentioned.

Understand that you have become the trigger for your BPD partner's bad feelings and bad behavior. Sure, you do not deliberately cause these feelings, but your presence is now triggering them. This is a complex defense mechanism that is often seen with borderline personality disorder when a relationship sours. It's roots emanate from the deep central wounds of the disorder. You can't begin to answer to this.

You also need to question your own motives and your expectations for wanting to help. Is this kindness or a type “well intentioned” manipulation on your part - an attempt to change them to better serve the relationship as opposed to addressing the lifelong wounds from which they suffer?

More importantly, what does this suggest about your own survival instincts - you're injured, in ways you may not fully even grasp, and it's important to attend to your own wounds before you are capable of helping anyone else.

You are damaged. Right now, your primary responsibility really needs to be to yourself - your own emotional survival.

Can I get a little help with this please? Does those have resonance with anyone? I had never considered this notion that I might have become a trigger for his bad feelings. I must say, if that is true, that really changes everything for me. I try to see myself as doing my best to support him. It is NOT easy! It is a bit much at times, and I could use more breaks, and there were other issues I would have liked to improve, but... .this one really shakes me up.

I know I am not responsible for this. I wish I had always handled it perfectly but these kinds of problems are so massive and complex... .but if I am truly the source of his pain at this point. If he would suffer less if I was gone... .I would go. I don't want to make him suffer. And I don't think he is anywhere near getting a handle on himself. I accept that. I was the stability. Oh, this is so hard and makes me so sad.

"I had never considered this notion that I might have become a trigger for his bad feelings."

Obviously, every situation and relationship is different. But, this section you posted speaks directly to my situation. Lately, my wife has her jaw clenched and I can see her grinding her teeth when I am in the room. She cannot and will not even make eye contact with me. It's not like that always, but a lot lately. Keep in mind that I've never done anything truly horrible or untrustworthy in the relationship. I am the root of all her problems (in her mind). Makes complete sense for my relationship.

Wow, Pearl, everything you bolded has resonance with me! Simply my presence has been triggering my wife lately, and it's an "aha" realization to read that it's typical when a BPD relationship sours.  I'm right there with you, Pearl.

WW

I'll jump in the pile and say I wasn't the trigger before, but I seem to be now. I don't think her dysregulation has ever gone on this long. I think its because I'm finally setting boundaries and perhaps this is "extinction burst". I'm more scared than I've ever been but also feel like I'm making the right choices for the first time ever.

Hi thegoodsoldier,   Thank you for mentioning extinction bursts. I have been going through a thread on it: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

I am struck by this: "So what do we do?  When the person with Borderline Personality Disorder becomes dysregulated or depressed. "

I disengage if they are aggressive.

I absolutely reassurance and comfort if they are distressed or depressed.

I am sorry, but I have seen great improvements in various BPD youth who have been given constant affection, reassurance, and comfort.

I believe this sort of social support, along with understanding and tolerance, in time, helps greatly heal people with BPD.

I am not saying they should be dependent on you, I am not talking about jumping in to deal with every drama for them, but they do respond in time to an intensely support and validating mindset.

They need to develop a certain consistency and level of validation and positive affirmation in their lives. Once this is achieved and persists for a while, the effects start to become permanent.

I absolutely believe than intense social support, and validation of their worth (affection, belief in them, and tolerance) and CRITICAL to long term recovery."

I have also been doing this based on my understanding that he feels abandoned and my strong sense he needs a constant connection from me to feel secure. Just the other day he was saying "I need a connection" and trying to keep me near him almost constantly.

Another quote from that thread:

"My therapist tells me to always send two signals in these moments:

1) it's okay to feel this way, I will give you space, take your time

2) you are always safe and welcome with me

If the pwBPD is really giving a silent treatment in the way that they are not picking up phone calls or allowing you to see them, just send a text message that states the above two points. In that way they are validated in their feelings, but also know they can return to you once the guilt, shame and fear of abandonment becomes more important than their initial anger. "

So, does this mean me sending him notes here and there to validate and let him know he is welcome is okay? I had thought it was okay, but others are sharing other information. This can all get pretty nuanced and we are just providing peer to peer support, but I want to come up with a strategy that works for me - assuming we make it out of this "breakup".

Usually being reassuring and consistent and offering a loving place to return to with no judgment or meanness helps him find his way back out of a black phase.

I just have to deal with myself and learn not to panic during these times and not overdo it - say too much. They are scary though when you are overseas and as isolated I am.

That's exactly where I am as well, thegoodsoldier. So, you have become "thebadsoldier"? Sorry, couldn't resist.

I truly feel that I am being viewed as less than human at this point. Today, she even refused to share information with me about our young child's medical appointment. She has tried to withhold this information from me in the past to gain some sense of control. A sane person would realize how terrible that could look for her down the road.

Question: Once it reaches this point, can you/we really go back? Really? <Feel free to chime in>

Hi pearlsw, any updates?  How are you doing?

On the discussion above about staying in touch and comforting the pwBPD, context is key.  I have also heard, and would agree, that comforting, reassurance, and validation in plentiful amounts can have a healing effect for a pwBPD, but not when we are working to extinguish a behavior.  In that time it is the exact opposite of what is needed.  This  video (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=302866.0) of a presentation by Blaise Aguirre is interesting, though long.

Somewhere in the middle of it, he talks about the BPD unit he leads in his hospital, focusing on teenagers with BPD.  I believe he says that as soon as they stopped allowing families to visit the teens in the hospital (which seems counterintuitive), a hospital stay became much less attractive to the teens and hospitalizations went way down.  Presumably, when the teens are home, that's the time for comforting, reassurance, and validation.

Bringing this back to the adult breakup crisis, here's my peer-to-peer, nonexpert thought on what to do... .

As they're headed out the door, don't chase or beg them, just say they don't have to leave, but if they feel they must, you love them and you'll be there when they get back.  Then no contact.  If you think they were too emotional on the way out the door to hear the message (I'm thinking most of you are going to say yes  wait long enough for them to calm a bit and send a short text or e-mail saying you love them and will be there when they are ready to come home.  This assures them of your love while giving them control and the onus of responsibility to close the gap between you.  I wouldn't send that message more than once, and if they are gone longer than 24 hours, I would just remain silent after that.  If they reach out to you, keep it brief and friendly.  Do not get drawn into any big relationship discussions over phone, text, or e-mail that will be full of traps ("I'll come home if you... .".  Tell them you're looking forward to talking when they get home.  This may be excruciatingly difficult the first time you try it, but I believe it will be helpful for your dignity and get you better results.

walkinthepark247, I have experienced this same information withholding to maintain control.  This is exactly the kind of thing that needs to be written down in a paragraph in your journal.  Manipulative behaviors around care of the children are a no-no.  Your wife will continue to do things like this, unconscious of how out of whack they are.  It is almost inevitable that a disciplined "non" will be able to assemble a compelling narrative this way, and is one asset we have against the huge obstacles that face us.  Any way you can document, such as screen shots of text messages she sends about such issues, quotes of out-of-bounds things she says, etc. should go in your journal as well.  At the very least, the documentation will help keep you from feeling like you're losing your marbles.  But down the road, if you ever need to provide information for a diagnosis or a custody determination, your documentation, coupled with empathy and concern for your family, will be essential in establishing your credibility.  Keep in mind that this sort of diligent documentation is most important when domestic violence or concerns about child care are at issue, as in your case.  Though I think some level of journaling is helpful to any "non" who is just trying to maintain his or her bearings, perhaps less with a thought of it ever being viewed by others.  Being observed documenting, or making an issue about it definitely can be detrimental to the relationship.

Getting back to the behaviors, and keeping in mind the "Improving" mindset, don't just document and leave it at that.  Make an effort to improve things.  In a calm time, bring up the incident later, and using SET see if you can make any headway.  DEARMAN may also be useful.   You may not be successful, but one must try.

Hmm... .good question.  I am currently conducting that experiment myself.  I will let you know.

WW

Hi WW,

What a nice reply! Thank you! Sorry I didn't get back to it sooner... .been trying to adjust back to none break up mode. I've been rereading on Crisis and Validation stuff on the site to put a plan into place for when this behavior recurs. Living as if this won't happen doesn't seem realistic, yep. You really think I could extinguish this particular behavior? I thought I had. Not by trying to mind you, but, for him the consequences of his behavior of pushing me away got pretty big and he got a bit scared about going nuclear on me anymore, but... .now he may be using it for other reasons.

I think he could  potentially control this behavior because I don't think he threatened his ex like this, but that was because he was afraid to lose his kids. When he was afraid to lose me he stopped for awhile. I guess he got comfortable again. I think it is partially to make me show a GREAT DEAL OF LOVE FOR HIM... .like he feels for me (according to him). But what he never seems to fully get is that he is destroying my feelings (and my health) be being so d--n extreme. Well, he kinda gets it, but it is a cycle. He LOVES ME SO MUCH, and I have feelings for him too, but they get less and less with each blow up. If I didn't do real work (on my own) to keep my feelings up they would be totally gone. He does worry that I do or will hate him at some point. (There is one big issue I never discuss that I am pretty upset with him about, but I can't discuss that with him either. Ever. I've had my say once on it and I leave it at that.)

He was sorry, etc., etc. after he was back and actually was better this time than I was at brainstorming various things we can do to improve life overall. I think the lawyer was probably reminding him that we are both too isolated and he wants to change that, and though I don't count on follow through, at least he had the impulse. Oh, but wait, he did call to invite an old friend and his wife to come and visit us so he did make a concrete start on this. Okay, credit given to him. :)

I have avoided asking much about while he was away or bringing up the entirety of my own feelings - I will likely never want to share all my feelings with him. Just not gonna happen. Some, but not all. My feelings aren't safe with him. But I am an introvert and can handle my own feelings so I'll be fine. I don't have resentment about it. I accept it as it is. But he will sense it (he has insane emotional radar!) and it will be an issue sooner or later. I honestly sort of rely on him focusing on other stuff and being distracted because I hate to be under his microscope. He begs me to tell him everything and share everything with him, but... .are you kidding me, man? You can't share all when someone is insanely jealous and twists stuff up. He can't handle his own emotions, and mine... .I give him what I can, but after all I've been through I feel more protective of my inner thoughts than ever before. It is not a typical relationship for me in that sense, but with more friends to confide in here and there and a support group (like here) to be there I have enough in life to be fine. I know this all doesn't sound so great, but my basic survival comes first.

I just... .I find that his emotions overall are just too much for me quite often. That is why I was reading up on validation because I don't think I have given him enough of it at times. His emotions are so strong at times and take up so much space at times I notice now that I wanted to skip through and over them as fast as I could when they were just too big and overwhelming for me... .I sometimes feel like the guy who just wants to put his feet up and half read his newspaper and half watch football and be left in peace because I can't make any sense of the other person in the room with all of the energy screaming out for my attention. A stereotype, but the best comparison I can make off the top of my worn out head at the moment.

It's tough because I am not in any position to set a zero tolerance policy on this particular threat. I do push back though. And I wish I could push back even harder till he completely dropped this tool. It's just not in me to let anyone walk all over me and I can stand my ground. But realistically, he is in the stronger position for now no matter what, whether either of us wants it that way or not. I have discussed him not doing it, and he gets it, but... .he will just do it again I am sure. I figure within a year or two I will be in a better position to not take it and flat out leave. (Being an immigrant makes me totally vulnerable. I always thought I got it, but I have never felt more for how much immigrants suffer until I became one myself.) For now I recognize it for the hot air that it is. It is terrible and it is damaging, but he will be the one "losing his dream" by that point.

Hi pearlsw, it sound completely exhausting, but I'm glad you are enjoying calmer times.

Can you post links to the site pages you found most helpful?  I'm particularly ignorant on the Crises resources, but reminders about Validation are always good!

You mentioned that he breaks up with you to get lots of love.  Do you feel like next time you are able to avoid giving him that payoff for the behavior?  Can you avoid chasing?  Can you welcome him on the return, but no differently than you'd warmly welcome him after a day at work? I know this may sound insanely difficult.  Are you thinking you can do it or are you thinking, "No freaking way, WW!"?

Bring this back to the boundaries tool.  It sounds when you say that he has all the power and you may be in a better position in a couple of years that you are looking for a consequence heavy enough to control his behavior.  Something like, "If you don't stop doing that, I'll leave."  I suppose that you leaving is your behavior, so that could work, but it's a massive consequence, and relies on him being rational -- so in reality you are trying to directly control his behavior, hoping that you never have to invoke the consequence.  I.m.h.o., real world boundaries work better when you start small, and the price to you of invoking the consequence using your behavior is smaller.  Such as when he leaves and when he returns, you don't give him a payoff.  It may seem scary, but compared to merely surviving for a couple of years and then invoking a nuclear consequence, perhaps much less scary.

WW

Hi ho WW,  

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! You are always pushing me out into new territories! I am a just a simple introvert/turtle.  

"You mentioned that he breaks up with you to get lots of love.  :)o you feel like next time you are able to avoid giving him that payoff for the behavior?  Can you avoid chasing?  Can you welcome him on the return, but no differently than you'd warmly welcome him after a day at work? I know this may sound insanely difficult.  Are you thinking you can do it or are you thinking, "No freaking way, WW!"?"

You’re funny. :) Well, over the span of seven years he has broken up when stress is high. I’ve been in a “last hired, first fired” state with him the entire time despite my best efforts to change this dynamic. When the weight is too heavy, I get tossed over board. When things lighten up I’m brought back on board. How I feel about any of this is treated as a non-issue in practice, though I do believe he cares.

Lately, it seems more around fears of me leaving him. He is not oblivious to the fact that he is not so easy to be with and that he drives people away. He is very emotional, me not so much, or different I guess. It is like sitting next to the sun. I guess I have emotions too, right? But you can’t see them when you are sitting next to the sun ya know?  

I am a bit shell shocked by this shocking behavior I never imagined possible on the part of another human being.  I still manage give a lot of love, but I am certainly not passionately, madly, excitedly in love presently because it is simply too unstable or inconsistent for me to fully attach to him as a partner. He keeps breaking the bond, ya know?

He feels bad about it (that I might reasonably hate him at this point) and I think (sometimes) tries to create situations lately where I am having to make big displays of my feelings for him. The daily nurturing love I give is only some of what he wants - I think. I don’t chase after him. I try to reassure him, sometimes I will talk a bit longer than I’d like to to reassure him, but I do not chase him to be with me.  He would love a chase I’m guessing from recent statements. He would love if I was jealous and more dramatic - some of this seems cultural to some degree… Again, I dunno. :)

I did try to keep contact, a bit of it, with one longer break influenced by ya’ll here telling me to try that out, but what I see him in his a deep wound and I can't help but think it is best to maintain some form of a connection while he is out of his mind. I dunno. I see him as having a run of negative thoughts in his head, and so I do what I can to help flip it back. I send him short, positive upbeat messages so he feels safe to have contact when he is ready.  I dunno. I don’t feel it is any kind of a reward. Rather I see it is a providing a stabilizing force and a touchstone for his sanity…Like leaving breadcrumbs in the forest so he can find his way back.

I am pretty resigned to the fact this relationship may not last forever - constant break up threats will eventually lead to a break up I suspect. I’m much more likely to break than he is I think. I give it my all, but if it doesn’t work out as a “forever” thing that’s fine too. I’m kinda over that “forever” stuff after, oh geez, 30 years of dating and what not. I really am okay with it. There are no guarantees in life and worse things can happen. I have been loved deeply and profoundly and been able to give love in return. It doesn’t have to go on endlessly - this side of life. I am increasingly at peace with it. With not having kids, my career tanking a bit, and now this. There is a lot of road left to rebuild and restart. Life has no shortage of alternate endings.

I try to keep an even balance…I was not jumping with excitement when he returned from running away for 5 days. He was sobbing and crying and falling apart and then rushed back. He broke, I didn’t. I was more tired of repeating myself and waiting for the rest of the storm to hit when he returned. It did. A few times. And it was exhausting.

"Bring this back to the boundaries tool.  It sounds when you say that he has all the power and you may be in a better position in a couple of years that you are looking for a consequence heavy enough to control his behavior.  Something like, "If you don't stop doing that, I'll leave."  I suppose that you leaving is your behavior, so that could work, but it's a massive consequence, and relies on him being rational -- so in reality you are trying to directly control his behavior, hoping that you never have to invoke the consequence.  I.m.h.o., real world boundaries work better when you start small, and the price to you of invoking the consequence using your behavior is smaller.  Such as when he leaves and when he returns, you don't give him a payoff.  It may seem scary, but compared to merely surviving for a couple of years and then invoking a nuclear consequence, perhaps much less scary."

I am not trying to control his behavior, I am way too low-key for that. Even if I had a magic formula to I wouldn’t try. I want him to be himself, and I accept him as he is. He is the one having a harder time in a lot of ways with his black and white thinking. I think it must be horrible to be him at times. I mean that in two years I hope to be more financially independent and then have more choices (ones that don’t destroy my life in the process) if I want to leave at that point. I want to be totally independent of him and never be dependent in any way on anyone else ever again. This was an exception in life for me, not a rule, and I am probably lingering too long with this fragile net under me when perhaps I ought to just jump into the unknown and trust I will land on my feet somehow. I perhaps trusted him too much to have my best interests at heart as I did for him. I won’t make this mistake again. He never meant to hurt me, I am sure of this. It is a tragedy of sorts when someone loves you this much that they destroy your love in the process of trying to hold onto you.

He has made me no longer afraid to be alone in life as I grow older. I guess I have him to thank for helping me conquer that fear. Being alone in life is not the worst thing that can happen to you I have learned the hard way. :) I think he really meant well, and it is more about bad timing and his serious illness that he just…it is hard to help someone with an illness when a big part of the illness is pushing you away, ya know?

For me, I want to pick the appropriate reactions for what I am seeing and how he and I are feeling. I don’t believe in “tough love” practices, or training another person’s behavior. I believe in responding to the wound I am seeing and treating it as an illness. If someone is ill I can't ignore them totally. I'd like some space at times, a lot of it, a lot of it :), and I am not gonna tolerate mistreatment, but I want to always have a hand extended open to him. Silence only makes things worse I feel, gives him even more pain. His ego isn’t such that he sees my contact as a reward. He is not fighting to win in these moments. He is not in his right mind at all. I think his identity and sense of self don’t neatly fit these Western notions and out of where these particular strategies come from. I don’t think psychology is a universal one size fits all thing. I am happy to take the parts that work and toss the ones that don’t. It was something like this that he said to me up front about how he felt about culture that attracted me to him in the first place and a piece of wisdom I got from him that I will always cherish no matter how this all goes.

Here is the link to the crisis stuff I was reading: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=168004.msg11986938#msg11986938

I dunno. I'm doing the best I can... .this will be a long journey with no easy answers. :)

Hey there, pearlsw.  It’s been a while since your post.  Sorry, I’ve been in a long sleep  

So in this quote are you saying that you were successful in avoiding giving your husband a reward when he came home?  I’m not sensing a firm commitment from you (to yourself  to hold the line on this.

As for when he’s out of the house, read what you said a couple of weeks ago with a fresh eye:
If the above quote were written by someone else, and you were to reply to them, what would you say?  He has decompensated, has negative thoughts, and you want to flip him back.  You want him to feel safe to come back.  Are you certain this is not a reward?  Perhaps if we phrase it another way.  By soothing him and helping him avoid the pain of separation, might you be protecting him from the logical consequences of his actions?  Do you think this would make it more or less likely for him to leave again?  What might thing look like if he were able to self soothe instead of you doing it for him?

DBT Training has four main modules:  Mindfulness, Interpersonal Effectiveness, Emotional Regulation, and Distress Tolerance.  Dealing with negative thoughts and being able to self sooth are part of “Distress Tolerance.”  The fact that these issues are a core component of DBT recognizes their importance.  If we do the soothing for our pwBPD might we be keeping them from an opportunity to learn it for themselves?

WW

Did winter end early?  The bear is awake!

Hmmm. I must say, there is nothing logical about what he does at these times - when he dysregulates. It is a crisis. Whether I like it not, he is a gigantic proportion of my life. It's like seeing a person standing on a ledge and saying "I'm jumping!". I can't checkout.

Here are my resistances:

1. I can't be certain what causes his behavior. What if this isn't BPD (traits) and he's bipolar? (Or both? Or other issues too?) Does that matter in any way? Does it matter if these expressions are learned behaviors or have a biological component? I have been around people with Parkinson's, brain tumors, Schizophrenia, epilepsy, Alzeheimer's... .all kinds of expressions of things going wrong inside the brain. It is because of that that I "see" something is wrong in his brain and he cannot control it for periods of these cycles at least. How should that factor in or not?

2. I don't believe I deserve to be treated badly, but he does have a right to break up. He (as do I, I suppose) have valid reasons to be mad with the other person and want to end things. How much leeway do I give him because of that?

3. It's a little "life or death" for me if he walks out the door. It is in my best interests that he calm down/come back, this isn't all altruistic. I not willing to totally give up my dignity/sense of decency to make that happen, but why have a big ego about it either? All I did was let him know it's okay to take a break, but I hoped he'd come back. You can't fix things if you don't communicate, so I communicate that the door is open. I am more concerned about me being angry & doing "silent treatment" and I don't want that dynamic... .what is the difference here?  

Is me being calm, reassuring, and letting him not have fear in communicating/returning to contact a reward? My instincts tell me be calm and kind help provide stability to a person in a hysterical state.

When he was away he did all the self-soothing he could/wanted to do. I did not see him or speak to him for many days. I just sent short, friendly emails to remind him he is loved. It made me feel less lonely/scared. I could feel like I was doing something to make things better in a crisis. (But I wasn't?)

I'm willing to be totally wrong and toss out all my ideas and start fresh on this. So, for the next break up what would you suggest my plan of action be? :) (If timing holds, I'm expecting one next week if not sooner.)

We're all peers here trying to sort out big issues with fine points/small distinctions... .Can anyone else help us out here? :)

Hi pearlsw.


My partner was both,   BPD and bipolar.    I eventually learned to tell them apart, so to speak.   Both illness exist on a spectrum,  and behavior and moods in both can vary.    What I noticed was the bipolar (for her) had a very very strong physical component to it.    In that my partner wouldn't sleep for 2 or 3 days in a row.    The psychomotor agitation would go through the roof.      The trigger would often be physical.   Disruptions in diet, sleep, stress.    The pressurized speech would be very very evident.   The trigger for a BPD dysregulation was often emotional.   and while the bipolar would wax and wane the BPD was more all pervasive.     It impacted how she viewed nearly everything, a chance encounter at the store,  the cat throwing up in the laundry.   


I would flip this question around and look at it from the other side.   If he has the right to break up, he also has the responsibility to do it appropriately.   For me,   I believe every right we claim comes with a corresponding responsibility.    We have a right to drive?   We have a responsibility to do it safely.   We have a right to own gold fish,  we have a responsibility to clean fish bowls and provide clean water.   

I think the question is how much leeway do you give him in avoiding his responsibilities?     



Yeah this does kind of seem like the crux of it doesn't it.   You place a high value on a stable, secure relationship.   something he struggles with.  that's neither right or wrong, it just is.    you two are very different in that regard.

what I see as the difference is intent and motivation,... if you communicate to sooth yourself externally... .well, that's one thing, because it leaves you in a vulnerable position.    if you communicate to sooth him,  that's another thing,   you want to encourage him to sooth himself.   right?    or not right?


I see being calm and providing stability and reminding him he is loved as two separate things.    Being calm and providing stability I see as helping him troubleshoot his chaotic emotions by active or empathic listening.   

Reminding him he is loved to feel less lonely and scared is self invalidating.   To me.   Your experience might be different.   You value stable relationships.    It feels a little life or death when he walks out the door.    I believe one of the things we all share on this website is our willingness to put our needs second to some one else's.    When he walks out and you send friendly emails you are trying to get your needs met.    You need to feel less lonely and scared.   I am wondering if this is the best way to get this need addressed.   

what do you think?

'ducks

Hi babyducks,

Thanks so much for putting your eyes on this!

Yes, I notice a biological component at times too... .he starts to have trouble sleeping and then a shift in moods happens. It feels very sudden, but I am starting to recognize it more and more. He cannot handle high levels of stress. He is totally out of control at these times, in a very dark place. He says "I can't hold myself" meaning keep himself calm.

Nice flip! :) I think the way this played out is he dysregulated and wanted a fast divorce, I slowed it all down... .I have a "no divorce while dysregulating policy", but I did have to seek legal advice just incase... .I told him we had to wait to talk it over when he was more balanced. Sure enough, once he balanced, he did not want one - "at all, ever".

It was scary as hell for me because he turns my whole world upside down. I lose my country, housing, everything if he tosses me out. Well, I've come to learn he can't do it fast legally if I resist, but it is still earth-shattering stuff. He becomes a completely different person. Angry, puts a lot of pressure on me, acts totally unreasonably. I try to hold him to promises about being responsible, but... .it is only because I have a good memory and can focus on reality that I can hold the line to the degree I do.

Oh yes, I want him to soothe himself as much as possible, but I think it is unavoidable that I participate in this to some degree at times. I am about to be away for... .oh, a week I guess, and I can already see him having trouble with it. He has to self soothe his fears of abandonment while I am away because I simply don't have time, energy, or desire to do so. I need to be away and present and living my life and emotions during... .well, days of funeral stuff with family. I am nervous, in the background though, because I know he will be at risk of losing it while I am away. I will "pay a price" for this time with my family whether I like it or not. There is always a price.

The emails/contact had multiple motives. I am sure I sent a few too many of them, but I think sending none would have been a bigger mistake. I sent them off into the ether. He did not reply after a certain point, I wasn't even sure whether he'd blocked me or not, but he did say later he did read them and was glad I wrote them. He didn't feel rewarded at all by this. He has no ego about stuff like that. He is not trying to "win". But he was in such an angry place... .they did not appeal to him in those moments. For me, I know no one in this country at all... .just him... .and I have no one I can easily (with understanding) talk to besides here on this site. I think the emails made little difference either way. I might try to do less next time, but as I had conversational thoughts in my head I sent notes, I mean there are big things to think/talk over when a serious looking divorce threat and him actually being at his lawyer's house sure made it seem real, I had things to say. It gives me chills now to even think back to this time... .it was very traumatic. Very.

Lonely and scared? The best thing for me is to have a better job, or creating a business - having more money and independence so I can be totally free any moment I want to be and no one has this much sway over me ever again. I can't believe I got into this kind of situation. I took a big leap and trusted my ability to overcome obstacles in life. I will again, it's just a steep, steep climb back to that point.

thanks 'ducks and Wentworth for putting your eyes on this!

ducks, thanks for joining!

pearlsw, I agree with everything ducks said, though she probably managed to do it more eloquently with fewer words than me!   But in reading your reply, I understand that this is very hard for you.  Ducks was very gentle, so it might be worth reading her reply a few times.  I think you really hit on something when you said that the messages you are sending may be as much or more to address your needs/fears as to address his.  I think ducks was insightful to call this self-invalidating.  I pretty firmly believe that you are protecting him from the natural consequences of his actions by giving him this warmth when he has separated.  One other way to look at it is that he separates because he has a need to separate for a bit.  In a way, one could say that you are not respecting this need (not intending to criticize, but just go with me on this for a sec).  If you were to not send messages after the first one (just one, saying you're looking forward to his return when he's ready), perhaps he'd have his need for "space" met sooner, and return sooner.  In the meanwhile, how might you self soothe in a way that is not self-invalidating?  In a way that is more respectful of his "request" for space?

WW

Hi Pearl,


I am joining the conversation late so please excuse me if you have discussed this before.  I am trying to orient  my thinking.   When you say totally out of control, do you mean psychotic?    And when he says "I can't hold myself"   it sounds to me like he is describing something beyond 'calm'.    I would imagine that calm is too mild an adjective to describe it.

I ask because my ex partner did have times of psychosis.    I still believe she is entitled to her privacy around some of her more difficult moments so I am only ever discuss one episode, one she herself has shared in a public forum.     In a bipolar mania she believed she could drive the car by putting her one hand out the window and the other hand out the sun roof and allow the wind to "push"  the car through her.   It was a powerful and dangerous delusion.

I mention this because language is important.   How we describe what we observe makes a huge difference.  And I think we bring our own pre-conceptions and biases to the conversation.    Somebody smarter than me said "Words create Worlds".     The words we use create our portal, our view point on the world.    On the spectrum of calm - not calm - emotionally reactive - dsyregulated - delusional - psychotic, the possible ramifications and responses can vary wildly.
 


Interesting.   To me this reads as the traditional all or nothing thinking,   the black and white, no shades of gray.    I would say that 'balanced'  would fall closer into the ball park of,     the trust and good will in my relationship has been damaged and we need a plan of recovery and a plan to resolve these relationship issues.   Yes?   No?



That would have to be terrifying.    It also means you have many and multiple vested interests.   If it was me, keeping a line of communication open that was friendly and comfortable would remove some of the blazing insecurity I would be in the middle of.    Thing is though... .  physically and practically I would still be insecure and vulnerable,  housing, citizenship would still be tenuous but I would building myself a sense of security, which might be false.


I think you are right.   There are times it will be unavoidable and you will need to participate.    I admit I probably didn't do a good job of this.   I often misread signals and under estimated the amount of self regulating she was doing.

Still, part of me wants to say, being aware of rescuing "things are chaotic out there with you but if you come back I will help makes things calm and stable",   there will be no consequence for your impulsive action.

Be aware of rewarding,  threats of divorce are damaging to the relationship,   there is no two ways around that.  you just don't spring back to 'normal'.   messages of "come home all is okay" doesn't reflect what really happened or is going on.   You've been hurt.    Pay attention to that.

and be aware of unintentionally putting yourself in the one up position,  the "I am the sane, competent, caring, compassionate person who accepts these limitations",... .he can't help but resent that.

all of that is like trying to walk a very narrow path

my two cents,
'ducks

and Wentworth?   I don't believe I've ever been called very gentle before.

Hey ya'll!

Thanks for trying to make sense of this with me. I appreciate it. No problem at all on tone WW! You're totally fine! Always feel free to speak your mind here! I value your thoughts very much!

'ducks,

I think my h would describe himself as having had some psychotic breaks in the past year, but I don't know if he/we are using the right words now that you mention it. He had to be given shots twice by his doctor because he could no longer function.

He is hard to pin down. Earlier on in our relationship I thought he might be bipolar because of what seemed like severe mood swings, later his sister-in-law (who studied psychology) suggested ADHD, at another point (last year) I showed him a list of symptoms and borderline made a lot of sense to him, he is now saying he thinks he has PTSD. I think he'd fly under the radar on any particular description/diagnosis. He has described himself as "emotionally sensitive" and he clearly has issues with abandonment and extreme black and white thinking. He also has a terrible memory which has its up and downsides. He also, I notice, can't recall a lot of his life or seems to block out bad things nearly entirely.

He disclosed (just last year) he had been sexually abused in his teens. He is also hypervigilant, in a lot of physical pain (bound to make anyone irritable) and has been struggling to find relief around that, he had a nasty divorce and custody battle (his ex did the one thing he wanted her to never do - kidnap his kids. She was mean and even abusive at times towards the kids, but managed to control them pretty well for her purposes. She had psychotic episodes/saw visions that caused her to abandon him and the kids at one point, etc., and he made the mistake of taking her back "for the sake of the kids" for her to only cause more havoc.) and his whole marriage seemed to be a disaster from beginning to end and beyond... .how much this was him/her/both is hard to decipher. She told him early on to basically never share any of his problems with her/keep them all outside the house so he got a raw deal on comfort/support/understanding from the get go. He's also very jealous (some of this is cultural, and what's worse for him is I can't relate to it at all emotionally as I am extremely not jealous.).

He tends to hyper focus to the point of forgetting to eat. He used to want me around, but not talk to me much and not even notice. He can block other people out entirely but get really upset by small noises. Sometimes he blocked me out because of exhaustion, depression, his ex, court cases, etc. He has migraines, is introverted, and sometimes moans loudly in a scary way in his sleep. He has almost no recall of dreaming.  He grew up in a non-Western country under a dictatorship were you tow the line or disappear and are subjected to what amounts to brainwashing at school. It was so unfree you were not allowed to talk about many topics. Just playing outdoors had its serious risks so he was stuck at home most of the time/not free to go out. While he loves his culture he also feels it was a very corrupt world he lived in - so it put him on guard and ingrained distrust. He was also basically segregated from females growing up. His first marriage was arranged - by his choice. He comes from a Western and a non-Western culture - so he's sort of a built-in more than one person in one.

His older brother has schizophrenia, and his professor dad likely had a mental illness too from the behavior's described to me by his mom... .Whatever he did nearly drove his mother to suicide and led her to kidnap his siblings away from the country the family lived in/she had no rights in. I can see why she got to this point if he's at all like this dad... .He also feels shame and embarrassment very intensely. He is impulsive and wants all his needs met instantly - can't wait. (From sex to all else.) I find him to be hypersexual - when he does not get sex the amount/time he wants it his personality flips. (I have managed to make some progress on this issue.)

On the flip side he's funny and grows a pretty cute beard.  He's highly educated (2 master's, a doctorate, and he invented something/has a patent) and has a great job. He's willing to look at all this stuff and make changes on it, he's just putting his physical health first, but is desperate to please and change what he can - at times.

Since he is currently undiagnosed (and I doubt he could be properly diagnosed without a hospitalization, but I don't know) I work on just dealing with the behaviors and doing the best I can with them. I hate that I still get lulled into thinking, during the calmer times, that he's "learned" from this and this is going away. Whatever all this is seems to always find new variations, though some of it repeats. I don't get yet what he can control and can't control with this stuff and that feels like an important distinction to me.

Yep, there is no security. He promises me the moon and takes it away just as fast. I am the only stability in my life, and I am hampered being in a foreign country in terms of doing things for myself as compared to the ease with which I could solve/manage things in my native country. Bummer because getting with him made my life less stable, not more as I'd hoped. I chalked a lot of it up to stress in the first couple years, but it just got progressively worse. In some ways its gotten much better in the last year (he's much more insightful and open to improving) although it was also probably one of the worse years of my entire life... .And I can easily, and sadly, say he's treated me worse than everyone I've ever met in my entire life put together.  

This was the only time he left the household entirely - last month. It was a "crime" of opportunity. Typically he'd be here and I could keep checking in/backing off as needed. When he's here I don't try to talk when he can't handle it. When he left I feared that his lack of object constancy would make it easier to... .let his temporary hatred towards me run wild and do permanent damage to the future. I can't help but try to head this off. It has cost me both work and educational opportunities... .and done damage to my health via a high level of stress. If I had followed his advice on how I was supposed to eat while he was away this last time and left me with no money (get help from the authorities) I could have permanently destroyed my immigration status here. Luckily I was sharp enough, in the peak of a crisis, to ask about this and avoid this damage.

My life (for now) is (unfortunately) in his (unstable) hands. His world is VERY black and white. He is not resentful, he doesn't have the memory to hold grudges. He is actually quite dependent and wants to be entirely cared for. He can't cook, etc. In his culture this kind of thing is not a thing as far as I can tell - being totally dependent, zero privacy between people compared to what I'm used to. He basically wants me ALWAYS around him... .except when he "hates" me and wants me to leave. A lot of this is related to stress and lack of coping ability.

That's all I've got for now... .I appreciate any thoughts or just basic human kindness... .I am away for a week, must head overseas to a funeral, so may not be able to host this thread for a bit or reply as quickly as I'd like.