BPDFamily.com

See the previous thread here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316172.0

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I talked with her about what I'd learned about abuse being mostly psychological, with physical things occurring only every once in a while to reinforce the psychological control.  I said that I hadn't seen her attitude towards control and respect change at all, and that I needed that to change.  Her responses to that included:
"This is a two way street"
"You create a self fulfilling prophecy"
"I didn't do these those because I'm evil and I want you to be hurt, I did them to draw you closer to our marriage."
These responses, to me, felt like they were right out of an abuser's script from a Lundy Bancroft book.  I have to admit feeling pretty angry about this.  My wife is now thought policing me, checking on how I'm feeling and what I'm thinking.  If she picks up on any hesitation, she will pick up on it and drill down, quickly saying we'll divorce.

She says, "stay away from the message boards."  It's natural that she would see the board as a threat, but what she doesn't understand is that the dialogue and input I receive here is helpful in moderating my responses to her, not just giving me strength to stand up to her.  Other sources (lawyer, DV resources) are advising more extreme action.  Reading two Bancroft books had a big impact on me, and was quite sobering.

I think my knowledge gaps are finally filled sufficiently, I've had some trial and error practice, and by 2-3 weeks from now I should be able to have sufficiently planned and be ready to implement and handle the consequences of a major initiative.  I am not willing to have a major blowup before November 1 when my daughter submits her college application, but am aware of the costs of hobbling myself, especially as it relates to being perceived to be dishonest about my stance if I change later, so I need to work hard this week and next to be honest with my wife.  This is pretty scary, since whenever I assert myself against coercive control behavior, she immediately turns up the heat (according to Bancroft, this is not a good sign).

It is going to be difficult to develop good "sponsor" options.  My wife is very resistant to using outsiders, and is sure to want to keep this between ourselves.  I know without a doubt that we must have outsiders.

Regarding the use of a therapist, I'm nervous about this.  I've read a lot about therapy not being appropriate for abusers.  My wife embodies the abuse mentality, is super smart, high functioning, and therapy averse.  She has expressed contempt for the therapy process.  I saw in our one session last Friday and our discussion afterward how things might go.  I've got an open mind, and am wondering if there might be therapists with experience working with abusers, but this seems like a long shot.  I am going to ask a local DV center director if she can refer me to anyone.  I'd be happy for any input/thoughts on this.

A key question regarding her brother is how I set that up.  First, Skip asked me what I told my wife about what her brother knew.  Yesterday, she asked me that same question.  I replied,
"I told him that we had been having problems, that I'd filed a police report, that you had been driving around and I was worried about your well being, that the police had found you and taken you to the hospital."
When I talk to her, it is a tough balance between being honest and avoiding setting her off.  I'm hoping I struck a good balance on this one.  I didn't say "domestic violence" or "suicide threats," or "locked psych ward," but I believe I was honest enough with her.  I've erred on the side of hiding too much before, so welcome opinions on this.

I know her brother is willing to help, but I need to figure out what I'm asking him.  Possibilities I can think of:
* He talks to my wife on the phone
* All three of us have a conversation on the phone
* He flys out and we talk together (he would do this)
I'm also not sure how to start off.  Part of me wants to ask him first so I'll know if he'll do it, then talk to my wife.  But if we go fully transparent, I probably should talk to my wife first.  I could ask her permission or declare that I'm going to call him no matter what.  Neither sounds attractive.  My current thought is to say that I'm flexible on who we involve but I'm not flexible on whether we involve an outsider -- we must involve at least one, and possibly more outsiders.  And the DV must be in the open -- I won't go into MC and bury it.  We must deal with the abuse issue first.

According to Bancroft, a batterer intervention program is where my wife belongs.  Part of me would like to push her to go to one, or even set it as a prerequisite for staying in the marriage.  There are options for women in my area, and I'll ask the DV center director about it.  I think my wife is likely to be extremely resistant to this, as she does not see herself as an abuser and would be shamed to be associated with such a program.  She might well choose to exit the relationship rather than go for this option.  But I totally get why Bancroft recommends this, and I think my wife very much possesses the abuse mindset -- this is not a borderline case (no pun intended).  Thoughts/comments welcome on this as well.

I'm not ready for a major offensive yet, and need to keep things calm in our house for the next couple of weeks.  But I know I can't just change my tune in two or three weeks when I'm ready.  She is testing me all the time, and after backsliding a bit to calm things down Sunday morning, when she brings up the relationship I'm trying to be consistent in telling her that I'm concerned about the control dynamic and we have to deal with that first.  But I'm not starting any conversations about it yet.  If my thinking gets out of line with where she wants it to be, she very quickly goes to a divorce threat.  In the next couple of days I have some work to do to get my communications consistently honest while trying to avoid kicking off a showdown I'm not ready for.

BB

Personally I'd call her on the divorce threats.  When she next brings this up because she is uncomfortable with addressing the abuse, I'd be tempted to say that you agree.  If this cannot be resolved then you will have no option but to go down that route.  Don't let her think that you will back down and bury things because she waves this over you.  She believes that you don't want a divorce and sees it as a power play.  So show her that you are open to that prospect unless she is willing to address the behaviour and you are willing to support her through that.  Then leave it at that. 

Regards the intervention program (perpetrator programme in the UK), this was the direction we were heading.  The one he was referred to had a decent success rate.  None will have an amazingly high one to be fair, but I have to say that in my opinion it really is the only effective approach to tackle the heart of the issues with these behaviours in a clinical way.  That is your solution to the therapy question as the programme is intensive and designed specifically with this mindset at it's core - so aimed at that target group.  Rather than MC which is a wide area and not specialised enough.  After our breakup my ex decided he would no longer attend (they contact the other party at every stage so I was informed) and this will be because in his mind I was the problem that caused it to happen.  Which highlights the need to attend. 

Love and light x

   

Story 1: Man walks up to you in the street and kicks you. You react by deciding in 6.3 weeks, you will have a discussion with your friends about going to his house, or maybe sending him a post card that says, "don't ever so that again, or else". Man calls police, and you get arrested for making threats.  :)

Story 2: Man walks up to you in the street and kicks you. You go crazy and kick him in the balls and growl in his face when he lays on the ground.".[/i] Man never kicks you again. Cops says, he had it coming, go home.  

I don't know if you see this, but you are telling everyone half truths (or 3/4 truths) to avoid fallout. You have read the book about domestic aggression (Bancroft). Now read the book on enablers (you).  

This whole think is in play now. You can move on and restore your honesty and integrity (as heartandwhole says), or you can play the game. Three weeks from now, what will be the sense of urgency. Maybe the brother can schedule a trip after the holiday. Wife will needle you and you will spin more half truths and try to talk her into changing her view of reality, while she tries to change yours, ad nausea. Meantime, wife has a meltdown and November, you are afraid to call police because they will press charges, she is emboldened.

Or you seize the moment of chaos now.

Anyway, to answer your question... .

1. How to engage brother? Mr. Brother, help. Please bring wife and come and talk to us. 25 domestic aggression. I'm half lying an manipulating to keep the peace. We are in a bad place.

This meet will figure itself out. Possibly brothers wife will be wife's accountability partner and brother, yours and you call anytime something is messy. You don't need to package.

2. Therapist? There are couples therapy for DV. You both can attend.
https://therapists.psychologytoday.com/

October is Domestic Violence Awareness Month. There are things going on in your community  right now.

Skip, OK, correction received.  I'll take the brakes off.

My enablement and shading of the truth has really got to be frustrating to observe.  Thanks for helping me face it.  A dysfunctional coping mechanism reinforced by working just well enough to get by for so many years.  I'm ashamed to admit I've persisted this way for so long.

W.r.t. therapists, I've spend plenty of time shopping around our area.  Lists from directory Web sites are a starting place, but it's like shopping for jewelry, where it seems like 95% of the inventory is not relevant to you.  I'm willing to be a large sum that most of those therapists are seeing victims of DV, or survivors of DV, and very few are trained and ready for perpetrators or couples.  But I bet there may be one or two, and I'll look for them.  I just sent an inquiry to a DV center director and one DBT therapist, and will leave a message for  two more DBT therapists in our area this afternoon to see if I can generate any leads.

Clarification on the brother -- you said not to get too hung up on the packaging, but I want to make sure I'm not stepping into any dishonesty or betrayal traps.  Do I talk to my wife beforehand, or just call the brother?  Do I give her a choice, or force it?

BB

You definitely want to engage your wife... .accountability partners for each of you... .most likely you will need to sell and push at the same time.

Thanks for the clarification, Skip.  I will talk and sell to my wife before talking to her brother.  Great idea to consider my brother-in-law's wife.  She is less able to handle emotionally challenging situations than my brother-in-law, so I may need to think of backup options, but a couples package seems worth trying for.  If we're unable to identify another outsider for him to work with, how cautious should I be about working with him alone?  Sorry to ask so many questions, but my "learning by doing" has been expensive

RC

In my experience, the reason people don't do things is because ... .they don't want to do them. Rationalizations, procrastination, and excuses follow.

From where I sit out here in cyberspace, your delay in taking action seems to meet this description. The daughter's college app... .? Come on. She's not disarming a bomb or surgically removing a brain tumor. She has to write essays or fill out forms or track down documents. And... .it's her responsibility, not yours. Let her do her thing, or not, and you take care of your problem.

flourdust, let me first admit the big picture truth of what you're saying, along with Skip and the others.  My equivocating to avoid conflict and my related behaviors have had a high cost, and the time has passed to step up and start playing it straight.  I'm also aware of how frustrating it must be to observe, and I'm acutely aware of, and grateful for, all the effort everyone has invested in me.  Respect for that investment is a huge motivator to be the best at this that I can possibly be.  You've only known me for a few months, but playing it straight is my natural style.  I've buckled under the relationship, and getting to where you're pointing me is a little jolting, but it feels good to be there.  I am there.  I'll tell you more about how last night and the morning went, but I need to get to a meeting with a DV counselor in a few minutes.

That said, I need to speak about the college applications.  Yes, I have *a lot* of experience doing whatever it takes to get to the next milestone, like a vacation, holiday, etc.  I'm ready to risk ruining a vacation or a holiday now, but this one is different.  There are no other issues on the horizon remotely close.  We are talking about a 17 year old girl with a BPD mother who can gut her with a single look.  D17 is fiercely independent -- she taught herself to ride a bicycle while I watched, because she wanted to do it on her own.  Of my three, she is the most likely to be able to pound out a great college application if both of her parents went AWOL.  But she must have confidence.  It is not about propping her up.  Trust me.  This is the second kid we've seen do this.  The first one had a really hard time pulling it together.  This one, we pretty much just have to cheer her on and not get in her way.  This kid took *my* backpack and carried it the last 3 miles out of the Grand Canyon, saying, ":)ad, you don't look so good, let me take that for a while." (for the record, I thought I looked fine, but was proud of her

So, she doesn't need us so much to do the work, but we can certainly mess it up.  She is acutely aware of the tension between my wife and I, and my wife lets it all hang out in front of the children.  If D17 upsets my wife, my wife withdraws support, saying she'll never get into her dream college.  My daughter has a heavy course load, and only certain nights available to work on all the essays.  If I don't handle my wife well, and she ends up assaulting me, and the police come while my daughter is working on essays... .that is what's on my mind.  At the age of 17, she is a vulnerable girl at a crucial point -- this is everything to her.  If she gives it her best, and it doesn't work out, no worries, that's life.  If adult drama drags her down and she feels like c**p about what she submits because her home life went off the rails -- that cost is too high.  I know my wife, and I know the level of drama that has happened and could have happened.  It absolutely could have knocked D17 down.  Last night we reached an inflection point, though.  D17 has gotten things far enough along that I know she'll be fine no matter what happens, while at the same time I've gotten to the point where I'm committed to a full court press with my wife.

It's kind of hard to explain, I hope this one "tree" makes sense, but please trust that I get it on the "forest."  Plus, I really appreciate what you are doing -- I totally deserve to have my ears boxed, and the candor has been necessary to get me off my *ss and back in the game.  I'm playing by different rules now.  More on that later.

RC

You're taking responsibility for your daughter's feelings, and then extending that into taking responsibility for any actions that are presumably affected by those feelings.

Your daughter sounds amazing - strong, smart, responsible, clear-headed, assertive. And she's 17. She has the agency to shut her door, put on headphones, or just get in a car and take her laptop to a coffee shop. She can spend the night at a friend's or stay out until bedtime to get her stuff done. She can cope. Let her.

flourdust and everyone, thanks for hearing me out, I appreciate it.  flourdust, it's time for me to shut up and listen   I will reflect on what you said.

Last night, my wife and I talked for while.  She raised all of the usual issues.  I apologized for the boundaries miscue, was honest on everything, and did not validate the invalid.  I said the central issue was one of abuse and control.  She scoffed at the idea she has been abusive.  This morning, we talked again, I refused to accept it when she tried to frame the situation as my mental health issue, and I brought it back to the idea that there needs to be a basic level of human respect before we can do anything else.  Not surprisingly, she is not buying it.  Time to apply more pressure.

I could use some thoughts on this.  Applying pressure with her is not something I'm very accomplished at.  I could call her bluff on divorce.  Maybe that would work, maybe that'd just kick off divorce proceedings.  My thought for the next couple of days is to continue to be honest with her about the abuse mindset needing to change, say I believe in us and love her, and raise the heat by saying things are different now, that she's not getting me back unless we get outside help focused on the abusive patterns.  Given my past behavior, she needs to believe I really am not going to waffle.  If I appear to raise the heat too quickly, she will dismiss it as reactivity on my part.  If I go too slowly, well, we know about that.  Any thoughts/suggestions on specific things I can say or do in order to raise the heat day by day?  Thanks, I am completely inexperienced at this!

RC

How many weeks have you had these nonproductive discussions. You see life as A. She sees life as B. No resolution.

Reasoning isn't working. It's still good that you are communicating, but if you are repeating the same old info over and over, you are not advancing.

How many times have you apologized for the miscue?

How many times has she apologized to you?

The only thing she has been responsive to is behavioral actions. The tightening of the noose was effective. The idea of a slow steady tightening go derailed and it became as fast tightening and a lull.

I'd drop the chats unless there is something new to talk about.

But as your signature says, play the ball where it lies.

What action can you take? I suggested the brother. What other options are there?

[wrote this earlier, not as fresh now, but gonna send it anyway…since you "need words".]

Hi BB, Sorry that you are having such a hard time - from all my heart. I can easily imagine how violated you must have felt. I know this was some unexpected chaos, her finding you here, but I agree that you might as well try to capitalize on it. Time to make some lemonade!

You say your wife is high functioning and highly intelligent. Okay. Well if she is so smart why can’t she use words when she argues and instead gets physical? That’s not so smart and no one in her circles would give her any berth on that. And, well, compared to you what does she know about any of this stuff? BPD or abuse? Nada. Is she ready for some honesty? Is that what we’re doing now? No more eggshells? Then the soft sell on this is over. She is all about denial and blame and anyone with ears can pick that up from a mile away. She has no leg left to stand on so no need to hold her up and give her the advantage. What is she gonna tell people? She didn't tackle and hit or she was justified in doing so and it was your fault she did? No one is gonna buy that crap. There is NO defense. Let me hear one person who can defend her for this, illness or not. She wants to tackle? Go join a football team. Its “all your fault” she hit you but she doesn’t want anyone to know because she’s embarrassed? She doesn’t get it both ways.

The numbers man, use the numbers. I did that with my guy. I calculated how many breakups he had done with me. He "forgot" them all because his brain pushes it away. But I did the math and once I started saying "Hundreds" he was forced to see things in a new way - that things had been extreme and that simply wasn't okay to do. You have numbers - the numbers show this is not "normal" and no one can argue with them. This is not a one-off situation she regretted and that she changed after. This is a pattern of abuse. It's not hard to see - your super smart college bound kids will see it too and learn about it even more when they are in college and having late night discussions about it while recovering from it. They are being damaged by this either way man. It can't all be hidden from them with the numbers your wife has been posting on the abuse scoreboard, right?

I used the word "abuse" too for the stuff that was abusive - direct and to his face with no one standing behind me, just me and my convictions with the possibility of being tossed into the streets in a foreign country with nada. Hand it to her, the label, she's earned it.  She’s gonna hear it sooner or later in therapy if you get there. A lot. Right? You have to disclose it to the therapist. No choice on that.

My partner didn't want to be "abusive" (about the breakups) and changed his behavior because I pushed back on this theme with all I had. She needs to change if she doesn't want to carry that label because until she is not abusive and controlling she's got a heavy label on her shoulders. 

I wouldn't want to spend time in endless arguments if I was you either, Skip got the "ad nauseum" part right. (I don't even know her and she's on my nerves a bit these past months! ) But you do need to learn to make a good case for yourself, to take control of the narrative, especially if/when you bring in others to help. Book-wise you are up to this, analysis-wise you've got it, but can you assert your view of reality without crumbling and taking on blame, especially for the abuse? Promise me, please, you aren't gonna let anyone make you accept blame for being a victim of abuse. Stand your ground with everyone. It is an abuse/control problem and until that is fixed you can’t fix the marriage/communication problems, we’ve all repeated that.  End of discussion. Put a pin it for the whole family. I know you know, but tell people that - that’s the truth, right?  Take up some space in the world! :)

I know you want this to stop, and the reason you haven't stopped it yet with full force is because the price is high - the kid's lives disrupted, more anger and out of control stuff from your wife, potential loss of all you hold dear, real serious life damage. But, and I think you agree, there is no choice anymore. You can't keep kicking the can down the road. (That's what the US did with ending slavery - everyone saw the cancer, but no one had the will to end it. It seemed impossible to have a world without it, and that ended up in a Civil War. Sorry, I went a little big with that analogy. :))

My partner is high functioning and highly educated as well, I am too (educated I mean :) ), but I happen to be more articulate and a bit faster on the draw than he is. I have the confidence of my convictions. Do you? Or has all this controlling behavior undermined you so much you can't stand up for what is right? You are so clearly on the "right side of history" here with the abuse stuff. Hello, she was just checked into a locked psyche ward after you had to report her to the police for a bluff DV call she tried to make on you because you had dared to document her abuse - that is all you pretty much need folks to know to establish that she needs urgent help (to stop the abuse) and that the family is in crisis. (Mic drop.) She's been physically attacking you for years. Just say it. There is no hiding it anymore. Why hide it at this point? Your kids have to have seen this stuff right? Yes, you have an awesome, middle or upper middle class high achieving family, and yet you, yes, you, it happened to you, have an abusive relationship with someone who needs help and it has to change or it is has to be over. There is no middle way.

10.8 days. Tick tock. How many days til it happens again? You aren't in control. You can't "manage" this. I know you know man. I want you to have fire in your belly! This is so hard!    Hold onto this narrative and on to reality or people may undermine you and put you right back down on the floor that she’s been walking all over you on. She’s not the boss. Her moods aren’t the boss. You’re team captain, and you’re calling the plays now. :) Let’s fix this as a family, with outside help, or that’s it. New lives for everyone. Worse things have happened in the world.

This is tough pearl, not sweet pearl. :) And I am here because I’m on your team, and I want the best for your whole family, but we can’t have that until this abuse stops once and for all. (The privacy wall, the veneer of a perfect family is gone. Let it go. It was a prison wall for you.) And I want to be here too for helping YOU heal. You have had no chance to focus on and take care of you. So this is the time to seize it. YOU MATTER! HOW YOU FEEL MATTERS! :) You have no chance to relax, heal, or really have a life man. We wanna walk to that place with you and celebrate you! :)

What’s the new plan? Call the brother and arrange a visit? This is a crisis so you need to be moving fast if you can. Keep the urgency and action going. I know counselors can delay. But also, a counselor won’t allow counseling while there is ongoing abuse so she needs to get that clear. And it is frankly dangerous - that’s why they will insist on there not being any abuse. You are in a tough spot. Choices have narrowed. Make the best of the options you do have and be realistic about what is coming. Protect yourself, always, either way this goes. This is the fourth quarter with only seconds on the clock. Make your play!

If you head into a divorce with someone like this, and have to co-parent later with someone like this… Oh dear! Yikes! She’s ready for truth? Good. She needs some. :) What are the next consequences for her? Stay out ahead and don’t lose the element of leading by pressure.

Just saw this and thought of you (& maybe me too!): "People have a hard time letting go of their suffering.  They prefer suffering that is familiar to the unknown."— Thích Nhat Hanh

The building is on fire man. Jump! (I got a million of 'em.) :)

OK, I'm starting to get some ideas, thanks Skip and pearlsw.  pearlsw, I'll have to read that pep talk again, thanks  :)  The fire is helpful.

Skip, you mention the brother as an action, but if I'm talking to my wife first rather than calling him first, I need to not let it just be a discussion topic that goes nowhere.  If I say that "we have to get outsiders involved, and that tonight, right now, let's figure it out, how about we ask your brother to fly out?" it starts to feel more like action than words.  If she doesn't go for the brother, who does she go for?  There's a therapist with extensive DV experience that the DV advocate I saw today referred to me.  I'll offer that as an alternative.  pearlsw, great idea about the numbers, I'll use them to try to break through her denial.  I won't worry so much about books I've read or buzzwords she'll never accept.  I'll concentrate on my experience.  How unconscionable it is that she has done the things she has done, said the things she has said, to her husband, the father of her children.

One aspect of this that is running through my mind, and I'm not sure whether to talk about with her, is that there needs to be a reckoning for the DV.  Either to save the relationship or in a custody resolution.  It cannot be buried.  So her threats of running to file for divorce don't make it go away.  I'm a little uncertain about this because, while true, for me to say it sounds threatening, and I don't want to push her into battle mode and have her go to a lawyer to hit me hard and first.

RC

I talked with my wife last night.  When I introduced the brother idea, her response was, "F**ck you!"  A little later when she was saying she wasn't even sure she knew what I thought was abuse, I suggested that we learn about and figure it out together so we had a shared understanding.  She responded, "F**ck you!" and threw her wedding ring on the floor, then was extremely convincing about how she was ready to move on and really wouldn't miss the marriage.  I kept at it, avoiding any dishonesty or equivocation at all.  She alternated between rejecting me and trying to draw me back in with affection.  Divorce threats came every 15 minutes, upon which I'd express my confidence that we had what it took and then in a few minutes start applying pressure again.  I held firm on the third party requirement.  I used some of the fire that pearlsw gave me, and that helped me and helped my wife to see that I was serious.  We wore ourselves out and fell asleep at 2am.

The pressure definitely made some headway last night, but not enough to get her to accept the third party intervention.  This morning we talked more, and I kept at it.  She said that she actually has been going to a program.  I asked if it was for DV, and she gave a not so convincing "yes."  She would not give me any details about the program when I pressed on the need for transparency.  I said that without me knowing about the program and it being part of a coordinated plan, it would not impact my outlook on things.  I have no idea if it is made up, is an unhelpful program, or is something useful like a certified batterer program.

More action is necessary.  She clearly is not going to do what I need unless she is forced to.  One action I've been considering is filing a DV restraining order to have her removed from the house.  There are aspects of that that are in line with my value, and aspects out of line.  In line -- it makes a stand for a peaceful home, and forces her to be accountable for her actions.  I am also feeling very exposed on DV/custody issues at this point, so it would help there as well.  Out of line -- if I were to hit a dead end in the negotiations, then eject her from the house without warning, it would seem like an abrupt action like some of my other abrupt actions, and wouldn't feel right (that's putting it mildly).  It also might be definitive in sealing the fate of the marriage.

Then I thought that I might be able to do all the work to get the restraining order, but not serve her with it.  Then I could tell her about it to pressure her into signing up for a batterer program, without worrying that she'd run to the courthouse with counter claims.  It protects me and applies tremendous pressure to her, leaving a pathway to success if she chooses to take it.  I talked to my lawyer, and she actually got excited about this, and thought it would work from a legal perspective.  This is the first time I've seen a way that seems like it might apply enough pressure while still giving us a chance.  I'd value folks' thoughts on this and how it fits or doesn't fit with what I'm trying to accomplish.

If that isn't enough, about an hour ago I found out that I've lost my job as of the end of the month.  I knew this was a possibility, and had been preparing, but it still makes for a very rough day.  Frankly, with all the drama I've already brought you, I'm embarrassed to relay the news.  I am extremely concerned about how to deal with this with respect to my wife.  My career troubles are a trigger point for her, and one of the things that she uses to justify the abuse.  She has invited me out to dinner so that we can have some peaceful time in between the hard talks, so the timing is terrible.  My inclination is to tell her in person, and tell her tonight.  Anyone have any concerns about me telling her immediately?  I feel a temptation to delay but it doesn't seem any good can come of that.  This will clearly add to the crisis level, and it will be a distraction from my battering intervention theme.  She may see it as ultimate proof that she is the victim and I am the bad guy.  I believe that I need to be very careful not to give any ground after giving her the news.  I can certainly own my career issues and the stress it has brought her, but I will not engage in discussions about how bad I am, nor will I backslide or equivocate on any of the DV messages.  I do think I'm going to necessarily need to accept a pause in forward progress tonight.  We'll be lucky if things don't come completely unglued.  Any advice on handling this aspect is also appreciated.

OK, thank you all.  Thank you.  Sorry to bring you enough troubles for a country western song.

RC

Quick take: Tell her about the job loss. No use in hiding or delaying it. Use it your advantage with applying pressure - do not let it get used against you. Period. You aren't responsible for the whims of late capitalism, so screw that!  *)

I don't think she wants a divorce. She's bargaining. It may not feel like you have the advantage on this but you do. Great that you are willing to hold the line via using an order if necessary.

p.s. You need a dragon name! Radcliff from Austria... .with a tan... .hee hee. No, you are a fire breathing dragon! :)

I vote cards on the table.  Be the healthy partner and deliver the open transparency you crave from her.  It doesn't alter what your goal is. 

Have faith in you.

Love and light x

On the job loss I'd set a line on that discussion once you put it out there. If she is able to comfort and support then you talk about it, if she wants to give you a hard time over it, end of discussion. You don't have time for that b.s... Life is hard enough.

That's nice that she's making this gesture with a dinner. There is enough love between you two so that is a reason for hope that she'll stay and do the hard work. She is very close to that it seems from how you describe it. Presenting it as mutual teamwork, past the ending DV stuff which is not equal on both sides, could get her across the line and into a better place!

If your lawyer likes the strategy then so be it. But gotta say, sounded a bit manipulative or a bit like a repeat of your failed past bargaining. Am I missing a step? Can't she just know up front that that could happen, get a warning that that is how life/law works, then you aren't falling into that you getting blamed for stuff (that is really for her to carry) trap? (Like the last time) I leave it to others to analyze this one... .

p.s. Keep an eye on your dogs if you have any buddy.  (I think they tend to run away in those songs.)

I will tell her straight up about the job, probably on the phone from work because we are supposed to meet near work for dinner and she may not want to go out after she hears.  And I can't dump it on her after a nice dinner.

Pearl, yes, the balance between applying too little and too quick pressure is one I have struggled with, which is why I am hoping to get several perspectives here.  It takes up to a week to get a restraining order so it comes down to my assessment of how quickly she might file for divorce if I threaten a restraining order.  I am having a hard time balancing personal risk and relationship and integrity.  If I get a restraining order it may be ineffective if she feels betrayed or it might be the pressure I need.  Perhaps there are ways to have incremental steps like tell her when my lawyer has finished drafting but not yet filed.  That raises my risk but might be worth thinking about.

RC

Before going off and getting a restraining order I'd force the issue of getting her brother involved.  You've asked, discussed, attempted.  Now personally I'd tell her that it's happening because you need this to get to a wider audience and get some third party perspective to help you both and she needs to get on board if she wants to see a way forward from here.  Otherwise you may have to consider other action to solve the immediate situation if you can't agree on a working solution.  Let her mull this over.  Then call the brother in front of her.  That's what I'd do.  If you want to take a hard line here then take it on this.  Treat the RO as a next step if all else fails.   

Love and light x

Sorry if I am missing steps, it's getting late here and my eyes are getting heavy. You have a zero tolerance on DV now right? She does anything and then you call cops and then you get a restraining order in the wake of that, right? She knows this could happen and that is the deterrent you are working with. Not a "betrayal", it seems to me, unless you are saying she can poke, shove, just not hit/tackle. You are at zero with this right? Zero forms of abuse. Your incremental strategy is over I thought. Sorry, I'm not privy to all your off thread coaching and can't follow finer points.

If she won't sit with you and see that full list of what constitutes abuse print it out and let her read it at her leisure. Leave a note saying this is what constitutes domestic abuse and you want it to end once and for all. (That means cops come if she violates.) Is that the play? That is the pressure it seems to me she needs. That is clear. Being wishy washy and allowing some stuff, letting her have any say in what it means, doesn't work. She will just pick the allowable ones off the menu. I know that is hard. It's like cold turkey for her, but what works short of that? The steps are coming fast and heavy, but here they are.

Sorry, don't let me jam you up. :) I think a breakthrough is coming soon. Wishing you all the best!

Thanks, HQ.  I hit the brother idea several times and it was roundly rejected.  I think her shame/privacy response there was strong.  She also made the point that we would be asking a lot of him.  And I worry that he is not an expert and lives far away so we might only get temporary relief.

Pearl, yes we are at zero tolerance.  The control behaviors left are abusive but not illegal.  I am trying to get outside help to fix the abusive mindset so we never go back here.  I am not willing to spent more time in the relationship without outside help.

RC

Here are the two documents you need to show her.  The first is the power and control wheel.  The second is the Equality wheel.  This is what you want to be working towards and for her to understand is the picture of what a healthy non violent relationship looks like.  It highlights the differences for her and she can see where the gaps in your relationship are very clearly by comparing the two.  I agree with pearls.  Print off and present them if necessary.

https://www.theduluthmodel.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/PowerandControl.pdf (https://www.theduluthmodel.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/PowerandControl.pdf)

https://www.theduluthmodel.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Equality.pdf (https://www.theduluthmodel.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Equality.pdf)

Love and light x

It might be good to call the brother and dial him in so he doesn't get blindsided. I solicit him for ideas.

Thanks HQ!  My local DV advocate just showed me the equality wheel for the first time yesterday.  Very nice.  Excellent idea to show it to her!

RC

She wants the abuse locked behind closed doors away from the world, so that you are isolated with it and it is kept under wraps so she will make very valid points to disuade you.  I'm pretty sure if he has always been supportive of her he would want to know that she has headed down this road and be supporting in her resolving it.  For all of your family.  He may not be an expert, but it's not an expert that you need.  It is someone she will listen to who specifically isn't you.  As far as relief goes, it's going to take a lot of work to get to where you want to go and I'd agree that he isn't going to be the magic cure, however what you will get that IS permanent is the shift in having the truth out in the open and a loving family member who is encouraging her to do the right thing.

Love and light x

I hate to point out the obvious, but it's also less extreme than getting a restraining order against her and turfing her out of her family home without trying that option out for size first... .

 

This detailed list right under the Duluth model is worth showing her. (The 2nd post under Skip's)

It gives her no room to wriggle out of it - what the many variations on abuse are.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61403.0

Call brother behind her back or with her knowledge?  I am assuming with her knowledge?  I got very strong pushback on brother idea so I am not sure it is viable.  She said never to mention it again.  There was a post I wrote about that up above.

RC

Dear, we have a serious problem in the family and you know what you part and you know what my part is. We've talked about it. It is clear. The police and the domestic health counselor that I have talked to have told me that family involvement is critical to resolving conflict like we have. I plan to work with your brother to get help and perspective to help solve this or decide that we are incompatible. I would really like you to work with me and your brother on this, but if you are dead set against that, I understand. I will work with him myself. I need to change. You need to change.

Dial the brother in before you share this note because she will try to end run you and call him. Get that order drafted and ready to launch if she lays a hand on you or threatens a false report.

You need to get out of the role of needing to convince her that "the red coming from the cut on your leg is blood". She knows that if she says she doesn't understand or disagrees, that you are paralyzed.

Read member John Galt. He was in your position and he had to push the relationship right to the edge to recover it. It saved his family.

She is arguing that there is no abuse. There is no point in arguing with that. Take actions. Calling the brother in is not a huge action. It is tightening the noose.

US Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis once said,  "Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants... ."

Get some sunlight in there man  

I'll give you props for even talking about this.  We see stories of so many sons and brothers on Coping and Healing who seem to choose to be trapped in what becomes comfortable in order to maintain the status quo rather than reaching out to others.

I don't think my story was that bad,  but my friends (who hung around us a lot) and even my mother with BPD were horrified when I told them some stories after my ex moved out. Coping isn't healing.  Give the brother a heads up  |iiii

It isn't betraying your wife,  it's working towards a solution for your family to keep everyone safe.  

T

I agree wholeheartedly. This betrayal theme is well worn and time to put it to rest. Stop letting it trip you up. You aren't betraying, she just wants to keep her bad acts secret to avoid the shame/embarrassment and blame it all on you. Don't let that be the frame for anything. Ever. If she wants no more shame and embarrassment she has to stop this stuff and move forward. At that point she can put it behind her and take her share of credit for helping the family get better. You all win if you stay on the same team and work together. Can you get her on the team? I hope so! You are right on the cusp of change! Stay strong and believe in yourself!

Radcliff, you've got everything you need to take this to the next level. It all inside yourself.

You'll never convince your wife that you're on her side. You're not responsible for what she thinks of you. You have no control over that.

All those vacations you ruined? Bullsh_t. When she tells you that you purposely started a fight or caused a problem... .seriously? Was she not just there 5 minutes ago when she PICKED a fight? She felt bad, she needed a way to feel better, and fighting with you or hitting you is the quickest path to relief.

You just lost your job. So did I. You've got fewer than 30 days to land another one or else. This place in life really sucks, doesn't it? It's made me realize what my REAL responsibility is to the family, and it's NOT "keeping the peace". You go out. You make money. You move it around to where it needs to go to keep the family sheltered fed and clothed.

You have not been placed here in life to be your wife's emotional caretaker. Stop it now or else I promise you it will take you down and everyone else with you.

I know personally what kind of situation you're in. I live it every day. It sucks. I suck at getting things done. But now is the time, Radcliff. I know that last 3 miles of the hike out of the Grand Canyon. All I could think about was getting to the top and having that cold iced tea. And it was such an easy 10 miles down. This is only 6 up. Why is it so hard? Well, the place you're in now? It's that, all over again. It's easy to get down.  Go show yourself that you can get up.

You can do it.

Thank you all for the broad input, especially the moderation on the restraining order, and pointers to the approach with the brother.  We will likely be together all day today.  I will read John Galt now.

One thing that I'm struggling with is struggling with consequences other than the restraining order.  I am realizing that the death of the relations ship is another one that she may want to avoid more than she lets on.  This is confusing to me because I am a literal guy and when she says the marriage is Worthless to her it's hard not to take that at face value.

Any thoughts on other consequences? 

Thank you all again.  I'd call you all out by name and be more specific but am typing on my phone

RC

Tighten the noose:

1. Please stop or I will call the police.  :check:
2. Filling police report.  :check:
3. Working with brother
4. Restraining order
5. Call police

Other ideas.

Ha!  Thanks for dumbing it down for this engineer.  We have special needs but occasionally can be useful in society   seriously, that was helpful.

Any other suggestions welcome too!

RC

You might add in the list, sending daughter to therapist in the list. Most likely the therapist will want to meet with the parents and explain how this is affecting daughter.

We had a strong talk this morning about DV, and I stayed on message. 

A little later my wife tried to prevent me from taking a shower in the master bathroom, calling it "hers."  She did not get physical, but I was worried enough to start recording.

My wife and were taking in the bedroom about the bathroom incident.  I said if she did another controlling thing like that again, I would call her brother.  She scoffed and ridiculed and started in on me about recording her when she hasn't assaulted me recently and had promised not to.  I said that I had recorded today because her actions and demeanor were identical to that before previous assaults.  She then called for D12 to join us.   I started recording and told her not to call again for D12.  She did.  D12 came, and my wife ridiculed me in front of her about DV and D12 said I was being ridiculous.

It is this behavior in front of D12 that finally gave me the fire to stop this.  I have called her brother and left a message.

I am sitting in the park 1/2 mile from my house.  My wife just called me and said she would love to talk to someone about domestic violence.  She said she had found a couple of things and that I have blood on my hands too.  I cannot imagine what she is talking about but am pretty worried.  What could it be? That is of course what she wants.  This situation is starting to feel out of control.  I'll take some deep breaths on the walk back home and Will get calm.

RC

Sounds like bluffing and lying to undermine you, trying to keep control. Thought she said she was already talking to someone about her DV? That was likely a bluff/lie too.

How did the brother respond? Were you only able to leave a message? What next if he won't/can't help?

 

It’s projection. My ex would do this, too - accuse me of whatever she was guilty of, usually throwing my own language back at me. Don’t worry about it - even if she does have a legit concern, your goal is to get everything out into the light. Don’t let her use false equivalences to shut you down.

Embrace this!

If I'm doing anything, I want help to identify it and fix it. I'm ready to open that door with your brother. Let's fix this whole thing... .

Skip, HQ, flourdust, Pearl, Turkish, TH, heartandwhole, DaddyBear,
Thank you.  I feel like we are making progress.  Your support is making this possible.

We cooled off last night, went to dinner, and had another tough conversation.  She is not ready to accept responsibility for ongoing things, in particular for drawing my daughter in yesterday.  I asked if she could just look at online resources with me so we could start to share an understanding of what behavior is out of bounds.  She asked if we could just be positive.  That's when I remembered the Equality Wheel.  I suggested that we look at that together, then call the evening a success and go to bed together.  She agreed.  HQ, you rock!  You made a difference last night!

Earlier in the evening, my wife asked me a direct question about whether I'd called her brother.  I couldn't lie, so the cat got out of the bag before he called me back, and she got to him first.  They talked for an hour.  I don't know all they talked about, and I'm sure my wife didn't tell him all she'd done, but I trust him, and believe he is likely to have been cautious about validating the valid and he certainly gave her empathy and love that she needed.  I got a text from him this morning saying he wasn't comfortable talking on the phone with me, but that if there was anything he needed to know to help my wife, it would be OK for me to text or e-mail him.  I'm going to paste a draft to him below, and would value your feedback.

I've been trying to think of other options besides the brother, which has required me to think about what a solution needs to have.  This is what I think we need:

1.  Accountability to outsiders
2.  Education about the abusive mindset for my wife
3.  DV expert oversight

My wife wants us to solve things in MC, as I've continued to press on not hiding DV, she's gone from "don't mention it" to "it can't be the focus," which is progress.  She doesn't want the MC to get sour on her -- she wants that to be a balanced thing.  Understandable.  So my latest idea, if we can't get the brother, is to get three folks -- two DV experts, and a marriage counselor.  All three need to be able to talk to each other.  We could get the DV experts from a local agency offering a certified batterer's class, but she wouldn't necessarily have to enroll in one (I'd like to get her into one, but think if I'm rigid on that it might limit us too much).  The experts would provide the three components that I've mentioned above.  I'd value your thoughts on this potential solution.

My lawyer started drafting the restraining order request earlier this week, and it will probably be ready for my review today.  I'm glad to have it in process, but your help here has been crucial help me keep things moving forward without leaping too fast, to keep me balanced and to gain some time to understand, process, and develop more options.

Here's my proposed e-mail to her brother:

Dear [brother],

Thanks for being there for [wife] last night.  We are indeed in a tough spot.  There are a couple challenges to our situation that I was thinking you might be able to help us with.  I've come to understand that the physical stuff is really only a part of what's going on, and out of kilter nonphysical behaviors are really the underlying issue.  We're still well in the red zone on those things.  The fact that [wife] is actively drawing the children into the conflict is particularly alarming to me.  I've been talking to people as well as looking at things like the following to understand where we are:

www.thehotline.org/healthy-relationships/relationship-spectrum/
www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/abuse-defined/

A big challenge here is that the domestic violence folks are largely "exit" experts.  Figuring out how to fix the problem and preserve the relationship is not a well worn path.  But accountability outside the relationship is key.  One of the thoughts I had was that as a more objective person who [wife] trusts, you might be able to help us agree on what things are in bounds and out of bounds, and might provide is with a "safe" accountability option.  The most ambitious thought would be for you and [brother's wife] to fly out here, talk about it, and have you paired with me as an "accountability partner" and [wife] paired with [brother's wife] to keep in touch over time, like a weight loss partner.  (In case you are wondering, this is a "thing," I didn't make it up

I know that's a whole lot to ask, especially of [brother's wife].  Some form of it with just you might be good.  Or if none of that sounds workable, I am also trying to develop something similar using professionals here.  [wife] is very reluctant to work with professionals, so that could be difficult, but I'm starting to explore it today.  Whatever happens, the most important thing is for [wife] to have you to lean on, to know she has a safe place and someone who is on her side.  She is very reluctant to talk to you about this, and only called you because she knew I had, so it might be good to proactively reach out to her to see how she's doing on a regular basis.

Thanks for your understanding and support with all of this.  I'm sorry to be bringing this to you, but am grateful that you're there and are so solid & loving.

RC

Hey RC, I'd start with, in your own words ... .you love your wife deeply and family dearly and you are working hard to make positive change happen to keep your family together, that's your ultimate aim and desire and why you are asking for his support. How can anyone say no to that? Repeat and refresh  |iiii

WDx

Thanks WDx!  Nice to hear from you.  :) I'll tune it as you suggested.

I talked to a woman this morning who runs a batterer intervention program and also does therapy for victims.  I have a personal appointment with her next Wednesday.  That will be my first contact with someone who does intervention.  I think her perspective is likely to be closer to what I want/need than DV advocates predominantly focused on assisting with exits, so I am looking forward to what I can learn from her.

RC

I think you need to be very focused. You cover a lot of topics and water down the domestic violence - it may come across as you cried wolf on the DV - remember, this is the narrative that your wife is selling.  red-flag

The fact that he doesn't want to talk to you and said he is happy to receive information to help your wife... . could be a blow off.  She may have said that you are manipulating with false claims of DV.

---

Dear [brother],

Nicety - Thanks for being there for [wife] last night. yada, yada

Problem - We are indeed in a tough spot.  There have been 25 domestic violence event in the last six months, I've left the home of stayed in a hotel __ times, and there were two incidents that involved the police. Also concerning is that  [wife] is actively  involving the children in the conflict.

The ask - The professionals who I have talked to strongly recommend accountability partners in family or very close friend - to be confidants and to mentor each of us (male to male, female to female) as we work through resolving problems with professional down here.

Is this a role you and ____ can take on to help us?

RC

(general idea, not an actual draft)

Skip, thanks, that is helpful -- I will focus my message as you suggest.

RC

Hello all,

No great progress this weekend.  My wife wants to bury this in MC, and is not expressing remorse or empathy.  She views this as a 50/50 responsibility thing.  I've been stressed and distracted, and she has noticed this.  She texted me this morning to ask if I was going to hurt myself and to say that there was hope.  I have no idea if this means she cares, or if it was gaslighting.  She has been gaslighting a fair bit.  While I do sometimes wish I could disappear or just lie in a hammock in the warm sun for a few days, I do not have any inclination to hurt myself.

I have a meeting with a batterer program leader who also does victim therapy today at 4pm (and other woman in the same role with a different program on Wednesday).  I'm looking forward to what I can learn there.  When I set up the meeting for today, I told her that I'm trying to save the relationship, and I'll reiterate that at the beginning of the session.

I was with my wife all weekend, with no private computer time, so just now had a chance to draft a message to her brother.  I am going to sit on it for a while, planning to send late this afternoon or early evening.  Thank you all for the help -- I shortened it considerably as you suggested.  The draft is below.

RC

Dear [brother],

Thanks for being there for [wife].  I love her deeply and want to do everything possible to keep our family together.  That is why I was asking for your help.  We are in a tough spot.  [wife] assaulted me 25 times in 9 months, and the abuse has gone on much longer than that.  These assaults included a blow to the base of my skull hard enough that I had a headache the next day, and tackling me in the bedroom, bathroom, and in front of the house.  Beyond assault, there have been dozens of other incidents.  I am desperately trying to get her to agree to see a domestic violence expert, someone who is trained to intervene to break domestic violence cycles.

I have learned that having the help and support of family is critical in recovering from these things.  [wife] sees me as an adversary when it comes to addressing the problem head on, which is where I can use some support.  One way you could help is by encouraging her to see an expert so we can get some help making a plan. Another way is for you and perhaps you and [brother's wife] to act as "accountability partners."  Accountability partners in the family or very close friends can act as  confidants to mentor each of us (male to male, female to female) as we work through resolving problems with professional down here.

I know these are big asks, but our family is at stake, and I am trying every possible avenue to get all of us to a healthy and happy place.

RC

Much better.

Thanks, Skip, I appreciate the guidance and feedback!

I read John Galt's Success Story posts, a thread linked from there, and his raw posts from around New Year's 2005-2006 when I think things pivoted for him.  Basically, he did prework on himself, then mustered the courage to give his wife a hard choice.  I think that is where I'm headed.  The trick will be to finesse it with the right amount of strength and humanity, and make sure I've done enough prework.

RC

That's the message.  *)

You got this RC  

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