BPDFamily.com

See previous thread here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317050.0

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I had been feeling some pressure between the local DV world and the bpdfamily world, but after reading Galt, rereading some of the replies here, and talking a bit more to local folks, everything is starting to converge.  It's still a little frightening, since either way this breaks, I'm looking at the end of things as I know them, but at least things are seeming like they agree.  At least, every source I've talked to is helping me to form a coherent picture, except for my wife.  My reality with her is still very different, and that is so mind-bending.  I suppose I just need to accept that.

The conversation with the DV therapist/interventionist today was very helpful.  She really seemed to know her stuff, and put me at ease.  This sounds silly, but her office suite had a beach theme, which is a special theme for my wife and I, and that seemed like the kind of place I could see my wife.  It looked homey, not sterile or rough.  Yes, I'm hopeless, I know.  One of my specific questions was about MC, and she said timing of when it is OK to start depended on the person, and two things needed to happen -- my wife would need to accept responsibility, and she would need to acknowledge the impact that the abuse had had on me.  That second part was a surprise, but it resonated with me, because I asked my wife last night to acknowledge this, and got nothing.  One of the other things the woman said to me is that finessing this so it goes over easy is not going to be possible.  I am still digesting that, but know it was important for me to hear.

I'll be working on flying straight and level for the next few days while continuing to prepare.  Thank you all for investing in me and believing in me.

RC

This is interesting. To me it may mean not rescuing her from her actions. What do you think?

Hi RC,

Are you getting all of the emotional support you need at this time? Do you need help with facing your fears?

Between your marriage/job issues/and your mother's illness this is a lot on your shoulders all at once!

-p.

I'm glad the message is converging... .

Just wanted to reinforce a comment I have been making for a while and I don't think you are hearing it. These ongoing conversations with your wife are not helping matters... .its just one long debate and whatever message you were trying to get to her is long lost in the debate. Look at your original letter to her brother - it was a message going in 20 directions.

I'm not blaming you. I think you are increasingly seeing the path - and you are on a path to discovery. Your wife is not on a path yet. You keep trying to get her on your path, but what needs to happen is for her to get on her own path. The only thing that is going to motivate that is action.

She doesn't accept responsibility - or feel that it is a good idea to accept responsibility. In her defense, you are just learning this. She hasn't learned this yet. She isn't going to learn it from intellectual conversations with you. She is never going to suddenly see the light through talk. It doesn't happen this way. The light will need to come from someone outside the marriage as she seeks help in responding to your actions.

Stay steady and slowly tighten the rope. This is starting to get traction. Hr conversation with the brother and your letter to him brought a lot of daylight.

Has he responded?

RC, I’ve mentioned this several times but there are several parallels between our stories. Something I have realized is exactly what Skip is saying - the desire to change and look at her role is NOT a going to come from intellectual conversations. My wife is one of the smartest people I’ve ever met. She tells me she’s a genius all the time, and on this point I believe her. However, nothing I’ve said in all the sleepless nights and wasted days has ever changed her.

The last hope I had was when both her mom and her previous therapist had a focused effort on trying to get her out of the depths of depression and eating disorder. She could see she was literally dying and she couldn’t afford to wait for someone else to take the blame.

I’m starting to think that my wife (and yours) really needs to see that the end is happening - end of taking the abuse, end of hiding the abuse, end of the secrets, and maybe even the end of the marriage - she needs to feel like she’s dying before she’ll save herself. And then, once she feels like her world is coming to and end, she’ll beg you to stop it from happening - she will ask you to save her from the end of the world, and you’ll have to say No. And on the one hand, she knows coming to you and asking for this is a viable option because you’re the one tearing it down. Every single time you’ve stepped in that direction, she begs, you stop. This time, you’ll say “No.” A simple No. And you’ll repeat it. Lovingly, kindly, you’ll say No. Inside you’ll scream and panic and think a hundred times about stopping.

Don’t stop. No.

Then, to add insult to injury, she’ll leave you alone and talk to someone else. Go prep her brother and everyone else with all the info they’ll need to be the ones that amplify your messsge when your wife finally goes to them

<b>:)B, I was rereading your comment from a while back that I need to stop being my wife's emotional caretaker.  That advice has started to sink in.  Thanks.

I mentioned above that the DV intervention counselor said to me that finessing this so it goes over easy is not going to be possible.
I had been asking her how to set the stage to deliver news around consequences and drastic action by me, hoping that I could do it artfully enough to avoid the most harsh consequences.  You will recognize my approach here.  She said my expectations are unrealistic.  It is going to be cataclysmic.  Short answer, yes, I have been protecting my wife from the consequences of her actions.  I have had trouble seeing this because what is required from me now is large action -- it is not merely stopping protection of her.    But failing to act as my values and my responsibility to myself and my children would otherwise compel me to act is in fact shielding her.

pearlsw, thanks for asking about emotional support.  In the last several days, it has been rough.  I have found myself dissociating quite a bit.  Confronting this has required me to remove all the protections that allowed me to survive for so long (denial, forgetting, minimizing, appeasing, etc.).  I also am having to conceal a lot from my wife while spending a lot of time with her.  The pressure is tremendous.  I am definitely not dealing with my mother's illness, and need to.  I have been talking to my dad, and last night called the DV Hotline just to talk to someone for a few minutes.  I am going to get a recommendation for a DV-experienced therapist, as I'm realizing that it's going to get worse before it gets better and I'm going to need more support.

Skip, it was helpful to hear this message repeated, and it definitely helped me frame my thoughts in the last couple of days.  I have not been trying to convince her lately, but simply by maintaining my honesty as I buy a little time, the issues come up and I can see that no amount of talking is going to change things.  Action-wise, I don't have any moderate options, except the long-shot hope that the brother is willing to engage and is convincing.  I have not sent the message yet.  I need to wait a couple more days, but it is an important part of the plan, and is very important to me personally to make that effort.

One thing that is still messing with my head is "intermittent reinforcement," that she can be nice and normal, and even with just a few moments of nice normalcy, the siren's song luring me back is incredibly strong, and the guilt feelings around what I may have to do well up.  Today she made an appointment for me to see my doctor tonight.  Half caretaking, half (hopefully unconscious) gaslighting.  Of course, yesterday she told me I wasn't allowed to take a shower.  So hard to reconcile all of the realities.

Thank you all for your continued support.  I will keep you posted.

RC

Blaise Aguirre speaks of the difference between habilitation and rehabilitation. Its an important point here. He also speaks of learned behavior vs manipulation. Another point.

I'd watch the video - I've viewed it at least 6 times and I learn something each time - he shares a lot of insight, even in his digressions.

Remember my video of Charli and the husky attacking her? Charli never fights back and never yields. Every time a dog come after her, they don't know how to deal with this and the aggression ends. I've watched that video many times as it shows me the difference between domination and strength.  Your wife lives in a world where domination rules. Strength is the antidote and it looks nothing like domination.

The is a reason why everything is the way it is. Its a complex puzzle, but there is a path out. You have to stand your ground and you have to get a lot of daylight in there. She may follow or she may walk... .the hard part is that if she follows, it will likely happen after all her learned behavior is found to be futile.

Careful on waiting too long to respond to the brother - any cry of urgency is defeated by slow response. I again encourage you to move on this and not try to script it all. The scripting will be read as manipulation by all involved. Note: She didn't script, she picked up the phone and cut your effort off at the knees.

Skip, I watched the Charli video again, repeating the critical second when Charli turns things around about a dozen times to make sure I "got" it.  Impressive.  Charli's got me beat, but I'll work on it!  I'm in the middle of watching Aguirre again, thanks.

Skip, your caution about losing momentum and a sense of urgency by waiting too long to talk to her brother resonates with my own concern, so it's probably good to re-evaluate.  Having been burned once by my security lapse, I've been reluctant to discuss plans, but I think I ought to give an update and get feedback.

At the same time I posted the draft message to the brother here, I ran it by my lawyer.  She liked it, but said I should wait until we had the restraining order to send it.

Backing up a bit, my lawyer is fully supportive of the idea of getting the order, but pausing before serving it and having one more attempt with my wife's brother.  When she said we should wait for me to contact him until after the RO was received, that felt appropriate to me because I feel extremely exposed to false claims of abuse by my wife, but it has taken longer for the lawyer to draft the RO than I expected (about a week and a half, which doesn't seem out of line for a non-emergency, just longer than I expected).  Hopefully the RO request will be filed tomorrow, and my lawyer expects it to take several days to receive the RO.  It has now been six days since my last text to my brother in law.

And my "risk free script"  that is not really risk free gets worse.  Next weekend, Friday-Monday, 3-6 November, I'm traveling to visit my mother.  It would be terrible for my mother if I cancel the trip.  Were she not terminally ill, I'd certainly just cancel it.  If I go on the trip, I can't very well set off a firestorm at home, possibly turf my wife from the home, and then skip town.  Contacting the brother could also set off a firestorm.  The "safest" thing to do, which was already feeling like a bad plan due to loss of momentum, was to wait until November 7 to contact the brother.  Total momentum loss.

Let me describe a potential better plan and ask for feedback.  First, get the RO request filed, hopefully tomorrow.  By noon tomorrow regardless, in time for her to respond before the weekend, I tell my lawyer thanks for her advice, but I need to contact my brother in law this weekend.  Maybe she'll teach me why this is a bad idea, but probably she will yield as long as I accept the risk.  I would then send the e-mail and hope to have a conversation with my brother in law this weekend, in which I'd plan with him to turn up the heat on my wife on November 7 (he knows my mother is ill), assuming he was willing to participate.  If he talks to my wife next week, the ensuing storm could scuttle my trip.  That's essentially my trade, preserving the momentum with brother in law at the expense of risking my trip to see my mother.

More details on the trip -- it's to a wildlife refuge with my sister and my mom, so the weekend can't be moved.  I could leave the two of them to go alone, and fly out to see my Mom at a later date (silver lining, more 1:1 time with her), with my dad flying in to cover the kids, but I think if my wife is out on an RO it could become difficult for me to leave the kids for the remainder of November and December, which is too long to be away from my mom, making it important to try to get out there on November 3.

So, I think I may need to compromise, contacting my brother in law this weekend, and hoping that I can still go on the trip, but accepting some risk.  I would value feedback on this situation.  Are there options I'm not seeing?  Is my proposed rebalancing closer to the mark, or still off kilter?

RC

It sounds like your getting advice from a lot of resources and its important to be clear on one vision - following everyone's guidance might get you at cross purposes. All three can have great, but different  strategies, and you can't necessarily follow everyone's advice. I know you know this, I'm just reminding you.

My question is whether you can do the brother/daylight/accountability partner immediately following an RO and removing her from the house... .

Your wife blocked you on the brother and whatever she said, led him to say to you "he wasn't comfortable talking on the phone with you, but that if there was anything he needed to know to help my wife, it would be OK for me to text or e-mail him". We don't know what she said, but it sounds like she elicited him to help her against you.

I think whatever she said + the pending RO which would separating her from the kids, will have her family quickly behind their daughter/sister to fight the RO - not help you.

And btw, suggesting a 10 day pause in a traumatic time like this will be gas on fire.

It sounds like the professional advice you are getting says that she is recalcitrant enough that you need to play hardball.

This may mean that a letter to the brother may need to be explaining the dv attacks (as you did in the draft) and to explain that you took this drastic action (RO) because your wife blocked all reasonable actions including involving him/his to be accountability partners.

I don't know what your relationship to your brother-in-law is, but his response to you was extremely disengaged at best, adversarial at worst. I could interpret that as he's not that interested in your marriage, or getting involved in your domestic issues, or in taking sides against his sister -- or he's already been primed to distrust you by his sister, and so he won't talk to you on the phone but will accept written documents that he can forward to her.

Either way, he doesn't sound like any kind of white knight who will rescue you from this situation.

Go ahead and send the letter, if you want. It provides a paper trail for you (though I'm not sure how that's more useful than just writing the letter and giving it to your lawyer to timestamp and hold as evidence). The most likely outcomes are that the brother does nothing or that the brother forwards it to your wife immediately.

How does that impact your planning?

Hello all,

I'm grateful for your help on this.  A rapidly evolving situation is not my strength, and my abilities are pretty severely diminished further by stress and anxiety.  I'm writing an awful lot, and asking for a lot of decision support help, and regret having to ask for this much help.  I'm completely good with making and owning my own decisions, but feel like my ability to assess the big picture and weigh different factors is completely shot.  Thanks for helping me through this.  I am looking forward to getting better and resuming my contributions to return a multiple on your investment to bpdfamily.

Agreed.  My task is to gather perspectives and create and own one plan.  Every advisor has only a piece of the picture, and I'm on an odyssey I will only do once, and need to get right.

No.  Once the RO is served, things would go to hell in a handbasket immediately.  I would have to establish a safe household, make sure the kids are OK, and then see what things look like.  The idea was to have the brother in law try to talk her into at least an intro meeting with a batterer program head/therapist before serving the RO, in hopes of avoiding the RO.  I'm growing concerned that my hopes there may be unrealistic.

Yes, I expect that she minimized what she's done.  She has told me that he thought I was crazy, but she has also said that about many other people, so I think there's some fabrication going on to manipulate me.  flourdust, this background addresses your questions as well:

I have a pretty close relationship with her brother-in-law.  Her father died when she was four, and he, though only three years older, is the closest thing she has to a father figure.  He and I have enough similarities that we enjoy long conversations at family get togethers.  I expect him to look out for his sister's interests before mine, and in my Boy Scout caretaking way, that is why I contacted him when she was hospitalized (he and I are both Eagle Scouts  

When I spoke to my brother-in-law the night my wife was hospitalized, I explained that I thought she had BPD.  He did not seem to have a hard time believing this, and described his awareness of BPD from understanding his own wife's FOO, and also described some incidents of their parent's behavior when they were kids.

What do I expect from my brother-in-law?  I expect there is a small chance he could intervene and help avoid an RO.  I expect there is a good chance that if I send a message giving the background, that he will believe me enough not to validate the invalid, helping to avoid her family becoming a pool of ill-informed animosity that fuels a campaign against me.  This would increase the small chance that she might come around and seek treatment post-RO.

I would like to think that I could go for the long shot -- get my brother-in-law to talk her into intervention therapy without an RO.  But my wife made an unsolicited remark again last night about staying away from her family.  If she suspects my involvement with her family, she will have a very strong reaction.  If she finds out while I'm out of state visiting my Mom, I worry about what will happen.

My best hope post RO is that her family gives her emotional and decision support, but does not buy into a narrative that she has been wronged and I am a villain.  I expect my brother-in-law to say, "What do you want to do here, and how can I help you?" not, "How can I help you and RC save the marriage?"

Skip, sorry, please clarify your meaning here.  Clearly, telling the brother-in-law to wait until I get back from my trip to see my mother is a non-starter.  But do you also mean that I can't wait until November 7 to escalate and serve the RO?

I have been face-to-face with two DV advocates, and two batterer intervention and victim therapists.  Last Friday, in four separate conversations, four people told me that it appeared that I was doing all the work to recover from DV, that my wife was doing nothing, and that unless she was willing to do the work, there would be no recovery of the relationship.  The batterer/victim therapist who I met Monday is the most centered/balanced/experienced voice I've heard so far.  She said to just serve the RO.  She was worried that attempting to have a final conversation with my wife to pressure her into intervention would be both futile and a risk to my safety.  I'm not necessarily going to hide behind that, though; if there's a reasonable path to have the conversation with my wife, I'm willing to do it.  I'm less concerned about my safety than the therapist.  Things get simpler if I let go of the trip to see my mother.

Yes, I think you've opened up an important alternative course for me to consider.

Questions I need to resolve:
1.  Do I attempt to involve the brother before serving the RO?
2.  If I assume that there is no way to avoid the RO, do I have to escalate and serve the RO this week, or can it wait until Nov 7?  If I serve the RO this week, I will have to cancel the trip to see my mother.  Serving the RO will be cataclysmic anyway, so do I lose by waiting a week?  Does it diminish the chances my wife will do therapy and come back to the marriage?

I'll need to own the answers to these questions myself, but on Question 1, I'm having trouble objectively assessing the success/failure tradeoffs, and everyone's perspective would be helpful.  Likewise, on #2, I'm having a hard time being objective about the impact of delaying RO service by a week, and having a hard time with the idea of canceling a trip to see my mother (she is declining, so waiting a couple of months to reschedule is a big deal).

If anything is becoming obvious to you that is not yet to me, feel free to hit me over the head with it

Thank you all,

RC

RC, is your mother too unwell to travel to you?  I'm sorry to hear she's declining, and I'm sure your answer will be yes she is.  Thought I'd ask though to see if that could be an option.  Could you reschedule to a time when you can take the kids with you?

I'd say that telling the brother that he is your last hope before having to resort to an RO because every option has then failed, should motivate him to get involved.  If he shares this with your wife and the RO is ready to go, that might not be a bad thing.  It would also tell her that you won't be controlled and that you have tried all you can to resolve things without having to go to extreme measures.  It's then up to her whether she pulls herself together and gets on board or opts for the RO by her actions in response to this news.

The timing is terrible for you - I hear that - but we can't plan for everything and I think that it is time to tackle the situation at hand then let the chips fall.  Your attempt with the brother is to try a final effort before the RO, so sending after RO doesn't fit with your ideal.  What feels right to you?  If you're resigned to going straight to RO, will you feel comfortable that you didn't contact him first?  Only you know the whole situation that you're living.  If you're at that point, then act on it.

Love and light x

 

You could go with a sequence like "here is what happened, I've being blocked on all avenues of help, can you help us" note and copy your wife. If she blows, file the restraining order. All of this needs to take president over visiting your mom... .and that sucks.

These capitalizes on the momentum, stresses the sense of urgency, and frankly, will make the filing of the RO seem right and preserve your integrity with the family.

Thanks, that does clarify the relationship with the brother. He may end up being helpful, though probably not helpful enough to change the trajectory of the situation any. I'm curious why you are so interested in her family's opinion of you. This seems to be priority #10 on a list of 9 items -- in other words, it's only relevant to your ego, so let it go. They'll believe what they want -- and they are her family. As you and your wife head your separate ways, they'll become less and less a part of your life.

Likewise, when I look at your priorities -- I think the visit to mom has to be put on hold. This is a tough one to hear, but your home situation is an emergency, and another visit with your mom would be nice, especially considering her failing health ... .but you two are in contact, and you can't let the emergency continue for the sake of a planned visit.

Skip, HQ, and flourdust, thanks for the rapid replies.  Having three perspectives is super valuable.

HQ,  you are dialed in to where I'm at.  Your reply nailed it on the facts and the emotions, and spoke to me well.  My mom can still travel, so that's an option.  I will not feel right unless I make an attempt with the brother first, though I know it's a long shot.

I hadn't thought to copy my wife.  She would certainly blow.  That would give me justification for the RO, but I think the true path is likely to send a note to the brother and see how he responds, and if he is not willing to engage, to have one more conversation with her where I tell her what I need, but don't push or threaten.

Skip, thanks, and thanks to HQ, and flourdust for your similar remarks.  Yup, I am coming to accept that after resisting for a while.

Not exactly.  I have accepted that my good relationship with them may end forever.  But if I want a chance to save the relationship, it is very helpful if they are not putting a lot of energy behind my wife with a false impression of what's going on.  She has five living brothers, so that's a lot of potential energy pushing in an unproductive direction if they are ill-informed.  Even if the relationship can't be saved, if she has support for a warped reality it could influence custody resolution.

Thank you all for the help.  I feel like I have clarity now.  I will have to manage things for a few more days and then act.  RO request should go in this afternoon.  I need to mull over whether I feel safe enough to send the message to her brother before or after receiving the RO.

RC

RC, if you're talking about immediate physical safety, the police are only a phone call away.  Never forget that.

Love and light x

HQ, I will remember that, thanks for the reminder.  I may swing by the police station before any tough discussions with my wife and give them a copy just so they know what's going on.  

I may decide not to explicitly discuss an RO with her.  This would help on the physical safety issue, but more because of advice I received from the DV batterer/victim therapist.  She said my wife might feel super threatened by it, and appear to play along, but then reverse course.  Two batterer program heads I talked to said that "volunteers" typically don't work out well because they don't have any oversight and aren't as committed as if they had received a court order.

I may just say what I need -- enthusiastic participation by her in intervention as well as therapy, with transparency to me, and see if she goes for it.  With her brother, I may verbally say (if he talks to me) that getting her to agree to intervention may feel unattractive to her, but is much better than other options.

RC

I think the letter you drafted could be edited to say that and you should send.  If he has said he isn't happy to talk over the phone with you then perhaps he would feel disgruntled if you go against that and it could give weight to whatever your wife said to him.  Especially if she has turned things around onto you.  There's also the fact he may feel it isn't secure to talk to you openly on the phone in case she can listen in on another line.  What does your gut tell you to do?  Did you know your gut and heart are also brains?  I read about this somewhere... .OK I'm tired and it's late but I hope you get where I'm coming from.  It's important to listen to your heart and gut as well as your head.

Love and light x   

Hello all,

The RO was approved yesterday.  I will send the message to my brother-in-law by midday today, aiming to talk to him this afternoon/evening and have one last conversation with my wife this evening.  (My lawyer advised me not to send the message to my brother-in-law until the RO was approved, and she and I agreed that I couldn't risk setting off a firestorm without the RO in hand.)  

My wife initiated conversations last night.  When she said that nothing had really happened, I described four assaults in detail, three of which had happened in the room we were in.  I calmly but firmly said that I was not willing to invest more in the relationship unless she was willing to get professional help on the DV, she took responsibility for all that had happened, and she acknowledged all the damage she had done to me.  She was unmoved, and kept pointing back at me.  Assuming my lawyer has no objections, I plan to contact the police department to let them know what I'm doing, in case things get out of hand tonight and I need to call them.  I am going to talk to my lawyer to see if we can get the RO served tomorrow if things don't go well tonight.

Thank you all.  There is no way I could have gotten to this point without your help.  I am not happy about what's about to happen, but I'm glad to be acting rather than feeling trapped, and the discussion and time to plan has helped me to feel like I'm on the path I need to be on, and for the right reasons.

RC

p.s.  Oh my.  My wife just texted me, saying, "Here's a link to an anger management class for you... ."

She also has recently told me that I'm a psychopath, and she has talked to many people about me and they all agree that I have serious problems.

We are certainly not on the same page!


 

Does the RO require her to move out?

Hi RC, Wow. These are big, important steps and life changes! I want to extend my support and compassion for all it took to get to this point.

I hope your night is not too terrible! We'll be thinking you and wishing you all the best to get through this rough day! 

Yes, the RO requires her to move out.  She has been continuing her texts, accusing me of being an abuser and saying I've left bruises on her and that I owe it to my daughter to face what I have done.  My lawyer has now advised that I not contact her brother until after the RO is served.  I'm not happy about this, but it does feel safest.  We need to get safe and into separate spaces and then sort things out.

My lawyer is arranging for the process server to serve the RO tomorrow morning.  I am going to stop by the police station on the way home from work to give them a copy of the RO in case I end up having to call them later tonight.  It will likely get mighty uncomfortable tonight.

RC

What have you told your daughter?
Are you planning to email the brother right after she is served?
Have you protected the bank accounts? Will the door locks be changed?

Good questions.  Thanks for the reminders.
I have not told D12 or D17 anything.  Can't risk it.  I am working on my script in my head.  May post on that today if I have time.

Yes, I will e-mail brother right after it is served.  That reminds me, I should tweak the draft and get it reviewed by my lawyer this afternoon so it's ready to go tomorrow morning.

The bank accounts are joint, so she has a right to access them.  That reminds me, though, that I need to make sure my passwords work -- my wife and I frequently get innocently tangled up with password changes.  The RO says she can have access to cash for expenses but can't do anything crazy like selling things.  We've managed risk there as best we can.

RC

What if she drains the accounts in retaliation?

I would give your daughter a note. It will be a bit hysterical when you are talking - when she calms she can read it.

There is some risk there.  That is why the RO addresses it.  I'll keep an eye on things and if need be, I can give a copy of the RO to the bank.  I'm OK with the risk level; I can't immunize myself against all bad things, and need to concentrate on physical/emotional safety first.  I do have some money set aside that can keep lights and lawyers going for a couple of months if need be.

I will consider that, thanks for the idea.  If things go as planned, my wife will be out of the house by the time my daughter gets home from school, so there will be no hysteria.  My preference is to talk to her rather than write a note -- more personal.  I will have an hour or two before she goes to gymnastics for a few hours, so I can feed her and get her to gymnastics -- supporting her normal routine.  A key question for D12 is whether to be transparent and say it's a court order.  My first thought was to say that Mom is going to be staying somewhere else to get some space, but I don't like the idea of her feeling like her Mom abandoned her voluntarily.  Of course, the truth isn't any better.  At some point she needs to understand that her Mom was operating way outside the rules, that there are consequences, and I'd like her not to be thinking that I'm being inappropriate, but that's an awful lot to get into one conversation with a twelve year old girl.

Hey, flourdust, any thoughts on D12 approaches?

RC

OK. Just remember, if she takes all the money, even with a court order, it will take time to get the money back - months.


I was saying, "in addition to". Not everything you say will sink in. You probably need to explain that there has been physical abuse.


Are you assuming that mom won't call her the minute she gets served and tell her that you are manipulating the court and kicking her mom out of the house with no place to stay and blocking her from seeing her children.


Interested to hear what others say. I think I would also write it down for D12 and answer the questions she will surely have?

Where is mom?
Is she ever coming back?
When is she coming back?
When can we see her?
Are you getting a divorce?
Why did you do this to us?

Remember, you wife will likely get to the kids and say that you are doing something wrong.

I would anticipate that your wife will go far and wide to tell a story of you abusing her and take preemptive action. Get the story out before she does.

Skip, good advice, all of it, especially the questions to prepare for.  Thanks!

I'd welcome any input from others as well... .

That is a tough age. My mom walked out on us at about that age - 11. She was falling apart while my dad was dying of cancer. I was pretty upset and told her if she left I didn't need her anymore. I was scared because we were all too young to drive him to the hospital. It set the tone for our relationship never really clicking after that. In time I understood she was falling apart, but still, that it got to that point - I still remember those moments. They were life defining. I worry how much blame is gonna be put on you. Your mom going away for any reason is obviously pretty scary for a kid. They will likely be begging you to make the pain stop too.

So, I'd get in there and get the themes and narrative set. This is not about punishment, it is about safety. It is about healing. It is about the family getting better, etc. They need a lot of love! A sense of hope and possibility might make it all seem less scary. Letting them know when and how they can see her and that being made as okay for them as possible is in the mix. Oh, poor kids. But it's gotta happen.

The D12 especially could be very upset with you, especially since the mom has mocked you for calling this DV and she went along with the mom diminishing it. Are you gonna take the kids at home to a family therapist to explain what is happening? They also need some age appropriate education on DV so they can understand the big picture.

Take good care! Pulling for all of you!

Good advice, pearlsw, thanks.  Yes, I'm planning on getting a therapist, at least for D12.  I do expect some blowback from her, so I won't be surprised by it.

The following advice in particular is helpful to me, thanks:

D17 is old enough, and can drive, so I made sure that the RO was written so that D17 has complete freedom to interact with her mom as often and whenever she likes.  The D12 situation is the tricky one, as my wife was indoctrinating her, she's less independent at that age, etc.

RC

Oh good, that's good that she gets to hear a neutral voice explain to her why these behaviors are unacceptable and to let her say what she thinks about all that is going on.

What has mom done wrong?

Perhaps not voiced though maybe felt by your girls RC, you can respond to, validate their feelings:
I want you to make everything be alright, right now.
I'm distressed and fearful, I need you to provide me comfort, I need to understand what's happening and why.
I feel alone, I'm scared and need a great big hug and assurance.
I feel unloved, I don't count. I'm lost in your worlds.
I'm too scared to ask any questions. I'm keeping this hurt in me.
I'm watching you and depending on you.

WDx

RC, sending supportive thoughts your way tonight - it’s going to be rough.

My only comment is something that jumped out at me
Remember you can’t control what anyone else thinks. I would suggest keeping it in terms of addressing HER feelings and responding warmly, compassionately, and honestly. If you do this right, you’ll have the best chance of being seen positively but that’s never assured.

Wishing you strength and support tonight 

As a pragmatic matter (and believe me, I know that when emotions are high, being practical isn't your first thought), I would like to echo what Skip said about the bank accounts.

If you can, move half of the accounts to a separate account that she does not have access to. It protects it and does not deprive her of any community property interest that she may have.

I too am send positive thoughts your way and hoping that all is going as well as can be expected.

I suggest mentally preparing for D12 blowing up at you. That's the hardest stuff to handle. The same tools that we recommend here for handling BPD emotions are applicable.

If she blames you, is angry, melts down, cries, etc. -- let her feel her feelings. Validate, don't downplay. Don't JADE why you are doing this or to defend yourself against accusations. (Answer questions, and if she makes false accusations ("You've always hated mom!", you can say that they aren't true, but don't get into a debate.) Defer big questions (that you can't answer) truthfully but simply - mom and I are going to meet with a judge, and the judge will help us decide what's going to happen, etc.

She may want to talk to or see her mom immediately. She may want you (or her older sibling) to take her to her mom and get away from you.

Mostly -- let her feel what she feels. Sympathize, but don't try to console her out of her feelings. Be clear and simple in your message, and don't get into a debate about your marriage with her. Be ready to not have big reactions to her big reactions!

Good advice.

Got it, flourdust, thank you, I'm grateful for the advice.  It rings true to me, and I can do that.

I just talked to the process server.  He is going to try to serve the RO in about an hour.  I talked with her last night and this morning, looking for a way to call things off, but could not get us there.

I tried to write a little bit about my feelings about this here, but words fail me now.

RC

RO served.  I was feeling tortured, now strangely OK (probably in shock) and I'm sure my emotions will continue cycling.  I was there when she was served.  I poured on as much empathy as I could in the 5 minutes we had, telling her that I didn't want to get divorced, was fighting for my family, would get her anything she needed from the house, etc. but I did not make apologies for the RO.  She wanted me to undo it and wanted to see the batterer/victim therapist this afternoon; I told her that wasn't possible.  There was love and no vitriol.  Well, at least love on my part, for her it might have been love, or maybe just shock and desperation.  I did not send an ounce of negativity her way.  She said she does not have a family lawyer, which is kind of silly given all the threats she has made.  I wish she had one lined up to support her, but she will have to figure that out.

I have a long "to-do" list, so I'd better get started... .

RC

You need to put the sadness aside right now... .this is about strength and you will need everything you can to muster it. There will be time to reflect in next week. Right now you are headed into the storm.

Do you have a draft for the brother? Daughter?

Radcliff, I’m really sorry that it has come to this.   This is a lot to handle, and I admire your willingness to fight the good fight for yourself and your family. You are getting great advice— keep us posted. No matter how this plays out, I believe you are doing the best thing for your family. That takes a lot of courage.

heart

Strong. Benevolent. Perfect.

      To you and your daughters.  Stay strong and focused RC.  You're doing awesome.  Well done on taking this by the nuts.  Wishing you every success in helping the girls through this.  You've had great advice on things to consider and ways to handle the emotional eruption from D12.  Only thing for me to add is the natural inclination for younger children to believe that they have played a part and may be responsible.  In the case of your daughter, she knows that she has been made involved by mum and may feel guilt over her involvement when she understands more (once she gets past the hysterics).  Just bear that in mind and if you sense in time that she is feeling down it would be prudent to assure her that none of this is her fault.

Hoping that this signifies the turning point for your wife and that you are able to achieve your ideal goal RC.  Think good things.

Love and light x

I can’t imagine how intense this must be right now RC. Although not at all the same, I took a drastic action many years ago where my wife had to be taken away by police to a hospital overnight. Afterwards my wife  immediately took her therapy seriously, she never let herself get as low again, and I never had to call anyone in again. This was over 10 years ago.

I hope that this situation has a really positive outcome for you and that everything you’ve been through ends up bringing your family closer to the healthy system you both deserve. If nothing else, hopefully you’re proving to yourself what we all already see, that you are an incredibly brave and strong person.

Thank you all for the kind thoughts, wisdom, and support.

HQ, does "by the nuts" mean the same thing back there as it does over here?

A surprising and positive development has occurred. I just got a call from my buddy.  We don't spend a lot of time together outside of kid activities, but we've coached soccer together for 10 years, have the same soccer cleats, drive the same car, have three daughters the same ages in the same schools, and are both ex military officers.  My wife is with his wife, who told him to give me a call.  I never reached out to him before because I didn't want to burn the friendship in my wife's eyes, and my buddy's wife is a bit of a chatty Kathy and my wife's frenemy (nothing serious, just style differences and some upsets over the years with managing daughters and social things).  But my buddy's wife decorated our deck to create an oasis for my wife when she had cancer, and my buddy is the one I called at 3am when I had to rush my wife to the hospital in the middle of cancer.  My wife is super private, so I'm really surprised she contacted them, but am really happy about it, and grateful my wife is not alone in a hotel room or driving around.

I basically told my buddy the whole scoop.  This is real, this is long term, I have a bunch of qualified support and intend to do this right (i.e. I'm not going off half-cocked), I want to preserve the family, and I don't want any unnecessary hurt to fall on my wife.  He said he was surprised and never expected this, but hoped he'd deal with the situation similarly if it ever happened to him.

He asked how they could help.  I said emotional support for my wife, helping me get anything from the house that my wife needs, perhaps a place to stay if my wife is OK with that, and facilitating visits with D12 (perhaps activities with the two wives and two D12's).  That last part is awesome, since I was worried about how to keep D12 and my wife connected in a way that follows the RO.  I also told him how happy I was with my lawyer's preserve-the-family-if-possible approach, and said my wife needs a lawyer (hoping perhaps they might give her support as she finds one, and hopefully one that is similarly minded to mine).

The accountability partners have arrived :)

In other news, I had the conversation with D17.  I said that Mum was with her friend and would be staying a way for a while, but that D17 could see her whenever she wanted.  I said it had to do with some of the things Mum had been doing, and that there's been other things D17 hadn't seen.  D17 said, "Whatever, I don't care about your s**t, I'm out of here in a few months anyway" and she'd drive herself to her own dentist appointment this afternoon.  Totally on plan with that one -- it went as suspected   We're pretty similar, so if I keep her fed, support her, and connect with her in the few minutes a day when she's open to that, I think we'll be as good as could be given the circumstances.

Now I gotta figure out carpool for D12.

RC

I'd imagine so  :)

Great news on the friends being supportive RC!  Fantastic that they asked how they can help and are willing to be involved in this.  Also that things were as expected with D17.  Good luck with D12.  Let us know how things go.

Thinking of you. 

Love and light x

(https://www.pnnl.gov/science/images/highlights/atmospheric/tropical-sunlight-clouds-580x324.jpg)

Despite all the talking and planning, this is the first of the sunlight. More is needed, but the process has started.

Please don't forget the brother - if you don't announce early, she is going to beat you to it again, control the narritive and unite the family against you.

Don't get beat out a second time.

Skip good reminder about the brother, thanks.  I hadn't forgotten, though had gotten a little behind the power curve and then got lucky.  With the change in plan to serve the RO more quickly, I needed to rewrite the brother e-mail and run it by my lawyer, and hadn't been able to do that (free time went into hail Mary discussions with my wife).  I was going to do that at lunch time today, but decided to call my brother-in-law to get ahead of things.  He didn't answer, but called back quickly.  Turns out he thought it was my wife calling, so he was a little surprised to talk to me.  He said he had wanted to avoid unhealthy triangulation.  We kept talking, and I gave him the same scoop I gave my buddy -- long issue, serious misbehavior, coordinated plan, expert help, save the marriage, help her find a pro-marriage lawyer.  He said he really appreciated hearing my perspective that I was aiming to preserve the family.  I do expect him to be batting for his sister, but my feeling from knowing him is that he naturally steers to the center of the drama triangle.  I don't think the conversation could have gone better.

I had a short conversation with D12 between soccer and gymnastics, and said that Mum would be staying at our friends' for a bit.  She asked why, and I said she might have noticed some things, and Mum was getting some space.  Her nonverbal cues and a couple of words basically said, "That sounds like a good idea for you silly grownups."  It did not seem threatening to her.  That was all I wanted to load on her in a short car ride.  She gets out of gym at 9pm, after which I'll talk to her mostly about what she needs for lunch tomorrow and then maybe add in some more details.  The most relevant is that Mum will be away from the house and if she wants to see her we can certainly do that, but will need to arrange it.

I'm curious on opinions of how much to tell D12.  My mom was thinking that it might be a little too much to tell her that a judge is involved.  Her advice was that the key to age appropriate discussions was to answer what the child asks, and if they don't ask about it, it means they are not ready.  My tendency is towards transparency and sometimes oversharing.  At some point, she needs to understand that Mum's behavior was inappropriate, but it doesn't have to be tonight or tomorrow.  My thought for tonight is to mention the bit about setting up visits with Mum, relatively nonchalantly, and say if she has any questions about all this stuff I'll answer anything she asks.  Then I'll have to figure out how much more detail to discuss over the weekend.  Thoughts? (I am also going to reread everyone's previous advice for a refresher now.)

Speaking of my mother -- I called her to discuss the trip.  I have been totally up front with my dad about what's going on, but have not told my mother anything about DV, just a little about BPD drama without naming it.  I was hesitant to unload on a sick mom, but I figured if I was going to ditch the trip, I owed it to her to come clean, so I gave her the scoop and got into an hour long discussion with her in which she was wise and understanding.  She said that she'd been worried about my wife's behaviors for a long while.  She said there's no freakin' way I'm going on the trip; it was nice to have her support.  I should talk to her like that more often.

<b>:)B, I was thinking of you as I talked to my mom.  There are all sorts of reasons why my mom is an annoying mother-in-law to my wife, and is an out-of-touch person at times who clumsily says hurtful things.  The most crystalline example is when my mom told my wife that her new baby "still looks a little beat up from the delivery."  (Really, mom, you just said that out loud?)  She is also often unconsciously self-centered.  She let me down when I was a teenager, and only half finished raising me (though I think many women will say that all men never really got finished being raised   My wife is quite vocal about this with me, and is correct about much if not all of it.  But she is still my mom, and has the wisdom of her years, knows me well, and is completely invested in my success.  I've really not done a great job of staying in touch with her as much as I should, and we now have the ticking clock counting down towards the end of life that <b>:)B you wisely point out that you want to get out ahead of to enjoy your parents' healthy years.  So, go for it <b>:)B, and make sure they get enough GD4 and son time.

RC

A few more thoughts on talking to D12, since you asked... .

She may well ask about divorce. (She probably knows a lot of kids from divorced homes.) It's good to ask her about her feelings about divorce if it comes up, and to let her express her fears or concerns.

You may want to let her know that what is happening in your family isn't a dirty little secret - she can talk to friends, teachers, counselors, etc. You might even encourage that if there are people she can confide in. She does not need to be ashamed.

Parents often feel that kids need to be reassured of stuff like "mommy and daddy both love you." They usually have more pragmatic concerns, some of which might seem kind of silly to adults. Where will I live? Will I have to carry my clothes and toothbrush with me to school if I'm staying at mom's that night? Who is going to drive me to the dance? They might assume that anything done by the absent parent is simply going to stop getting done, or that they'll have to fend for themselves.

RC - thank you. Yes my parental situation is a huge mess, and the tension may very well blow up into something really ugly. You’re a true role model on how to step up and just face those ugly situations before it’s too late. Thank you.

In regards to D12 and communicating the message “what mommy did was inappropriate” - I am wondering, is that something we (dads) should be saying? It feels a little bit like we’re telling our kids what THEY should think. I’m wondering, would it be better to let them know that WE think what happened was inappropriate and then let them tell us what they think? That might start a very good conversation and become a real teachable moment.

I’m not sure I’ve got that right, though.

EDIT: as I thought about it I’m wondering maybe our kids shouldn’t even be involved in a conversation about what’s appropriate in our marriage. Maybe generally speaking we can communicate that we didn’t feel what happened was appropriate for us and leave it at that?

flourdust, thanks for the additional advice, that helps!

DB, thanks for thinking that through.  I like the idea of asking her what she thinks.  I think at some point she need to know that DV was happening and is unacceptable.  Perhaps it needs to only be restricted to discussions of things she has observed.  As I review my journals, I'm seeing that she has witnessed more DV than I remembered, and I'm just starting the book, "When Daddy Hurts Mommy," by Lundy Bancroft, who says that the kids are likely to be witnessing more than the parents realize.

Bottom line, I think managing their pragmatic concerns and keeping their needs met as was just suggested, and facilitating healthy access to both parents is the name of the game immediately.  The other stuff is longer term, and there's time to sort that out with professional guidance.  I'm following up on a couple of therapist leads now.

Today was an interesting day.  On the one hand, I really miss my wife.  She is my other half.  On the other hand, it was nice to have peace and freedom to parent without being criticized.  I realize with her gone that having been told how incompetent I am so many times by her, she didn't even need to say it any more, she just had to be in the house for me to feel it.  I'm starting from a pretty low level of functioning at this point.  It was nice to be able to eat breakfast with D12 and carefully put together a simple lunch for her.  The fact that I'm able to feel reassured by my ability to assemble a simple three item lunch pretty much demonstrates where I'm at.  There's no place to go but up!

RC

I just talked to my buddy's wife face-to-face for four hours.  Wow, this couple is amazing.  In less than a day, she got my wife to reveal her unaddressed traumas from her FOO that I thought my wife would never tell another living soul about.  The buddy's wife is talking about driving for a diagnosis for my wife.  I mentioned my wife's decades-long stance against therapy, and my buddy's wife said she'd drive her to every therapy appointment if she had to.  My wife had shown her the entire RO packet, including the declaration that had extensive detail on the DV.  Before she came to see me, my wife said to her to please be careful not to minimize the DV that I'd been through.  This was interesting, since it means that while my wife didn't appear to hear me when I was saying it, now that she has a lot at stake she remembers it and thinks it is important.

The buddy's wife had several ideas for a more collaborative approach to things (including something called a "non-CLETS restraining order" that I need to research) which could be good if it results in my wife getting more appropriate therapy.  I was clear with her that any solution had to look good through the DV victim lens (accountability, education on controlling behaviors, acknowledgement of damage done, etc.), and we also agreed that any solution had to involve a peaceful, safe, respectful home.  We also discussed various ways to connect my wife with the children, and to get clothes etc. to my wife.  This woman has known D12 since she was an infant, and our daughters have played soccer together since kindergarten.  She is heavily invested in our success.  We agreed that D12 is everyone's highest priority (including, I made clear, the inappropriate behaviors of my wife in front of D12, but also reconnecting D12 to my wife ASAP in a safe way).  D12 is going to go over to dinner at our friends' house where my wife is staying tomorrow.  Odds on success are still long, but it was a good evening.

RC

It means that the restraining order is not in the police database and you have no protection by law enforcement. If she violated the RO, your only recourse is to take her to court and ask for a CLETS restraining order.

So with a non-CLETS order, if she goes berserk, and you call the police, it's no different than if you had no order at all. You forego criminal protection.

Be very careful with this. Usually something like this happens later in the game when she has made some progress.


It's not, really. What is more interesting is your belief that she didn't hear it and that you had to have the conversation 100 times.  She heard it the first time... .certainly the third.

When she realized that you were dependent on her acknowledging it, she knew not to acknowledge it.

It's learned behavior.

Skip, thanks for the quick lesson, that helps.  I also appreciate the context that it is also something that happens later in the game.  The narrative from my buddy's wife is that they were shocked at the harshness of the RO, and after talking with a close friend who's a divorce attorney, are wondering if there's a less frightening way.  I understand this sentiment, but also understand that the only reason we're dealing here is because the RO was harsh and my wife is incented to get her family back.  Interestingly, when I met with the assistant DA at the Family Justice Center she said that the strongest motivator for women offenders was to keep the family together.  (Another interesting thing is that my wife is telling her friend that she never wanted a divorce, despite the fact that she was regularly threatening me with it.  I can understand the duality here, but also understand that my wife has to be accountable for her actions/words).

I will step carefully.  I want to explore all possible options/tools but also feel I have a solid idea of what I need to be safe for D12 and I, and I will not yield on that.  (I am assuming that any situation that works for D12 and me will also work for D17).

Yup.  I suppose I'm simple-minded, but I'm confused by the fact that when I say I need something she does the opposite!

RC

Two words RC.  Power and control.   Glad you are seeing some progress with your friends' involvement.  Stick to your guns.  You're doing great. 

Love and light x

HQ, thanks for the encouragement and wisdom.  Yup, I suppose it's all about power and control.  Obviously, that's the main deal, but even with that knowledge it's surprising and depressing how that one theme is infused through the whole history and present state of the relationship.  I could give her a half hour back rub, then say, "Hey, do you think you could give me one?" and she won't do it because she feels like I'm trying to control her.  Any time I have a need, she feels I'm trying to control her.  Any discussion about balancing our needs or compromising is a zero sum game for her, where only one of us can win.  Well, the issue of power and control has everyone's attention now.  We'll see if with 3-4 therapists and a couple of lawyers on the payroll, plus friends and family, we can make some progress!

RC

So sorry to be out of pocket on this end! Been thinking of you and your family and hoping this time isn't too scary as you step into this new phase.   Never forget, there are always steps back as you are trying to push forward.   It is nice that the other couple wants to help - just be sure the wife of the pair respects your position on things and doesn't push to take over too much. Don't let her take over the dynamic - you are the emotional leader here. While others may toss in good ideas here and there trust that you are the one with the wise clear vision of what the family can ultimately be. This is a good time to work on your own self-esteem and self-care. Be sure to run now and again, and give yourself time to relax and enjoy time with your own friends away from these issues when possible. :) I know these shocks to the system mess with my heart and are causing me extra stress that is having physical consequences. It feels like good years are being taken off of the 'ol ticker. I know you get chest pains too, so just a reminder to take care of your ticker!     Any openings on the job front? :) Glad your mom understood! Funny how much support people provide if we just let them in! :) (I'm learning this lesson myself.) Take care!

Hey Pearl, thanks for the reply!  No worries, I know you've got your hands full as well!  I am concerned about my wife and kids and the difficulty of the road ahead, but only a tiny fraction as anxious as I was in the final days when my wife was in the house, as I was working with the lawyer to draft the RO request, my wife was gaslighting heavily, and I felt trapped and exposed.  The plan is moving forward and the support team is forming, so that feels good.  I have a therapist appointment for Wednesday afternoon to discuss help for me and D12.  Thanks for the caution on my buddy's wife -- wise words.  That's one of the main reasons I met with her last night -- to gauge her position and to make sure she knew my determination and that she appreciated the gravity of the DV.  It was a good meeting, but I expect to have to "refresh" that every so often.  The situation is a little uncomfortable because she is upset by the harshness of the RO and sees the emotional impact on my wife, but I am hoping she and I can stay 80% aligned as allies, united by our shared concern for my wife and children.  My buddy is traveling, so I've not yet had a chance to have a long conversation with him.  When I'm able to talk to him, that will be a help.

Oh, another update -- my buddy's wife hosted D12 for dinner tonight with my wife, and D12 stayed over there for 3 1/2 hours.  Both my buddy and his wife have read the pamphlet from the county and signed the agreement to be "nonprofessional visit supervisors" so it's all squared away with officialdom.  Everyone was very happy about the visit, and I'm glad it was able to happen.  We've arranged for a second dinner tomorrow night as well.

Thanks for the reminder on running.  No excuse not to go running tomorrow!

I'm not looking for a job at the moment.  I have been preparing for the current job to potentially end for a year, and have been saving up, so can afford to take a few months off and concentrate on family.  Which is a huge blessing.  I am in absolutely no shape to look for or start a new job.  My job right now is taking care of myself and my family and getting us to a good place.  I may also therapeutically catch up on home organization and repairs   If it seems like a good idea to start earning some money before the family is in a good place, I have a couple of consulting and possibly teaching opportunities that could let me work part time.  Honestly, I think the road to recovery is going to be a long one, so part-time work seems like a good plan for a while.  Full time work in my line of work in this region can very easily become all-consuming, so I'm not anxious to get back to that, and may actually engineer a shift to a different path, such as teaching. I am starting some volunteering to coach a team in a project course at the university up the street to get me out of the house and network a bit. Right now, it's literally one day at a time!

RC

RC I just want to give you the huge credit you deserve for the thought you're putting into what is good for you and the approach you're taking in your own personal endeavours.  Volunteering and networking sounds perfect at this time and I'm delighted to hear that you have considered potential alternatives to the full on grind career wise.  Healthy balance is really important and you've clearly got your head screwed on.  Good on you!  |iiii 

Stay focused on him. You want him to be your advocate, her to be your wives advocate, and their relationship to mediate the difference between before approaching you.

If you both go to both of them, it will become negative triangulation.

Her position that its harsh is reasonable. Your wife needs someone to console her. If she (your buddies wife) brings that matter to you and you don't yield, she will start to triangulate - its natural.

If she took that same statement to husband, he might have said, "yes, but lets not cloud the issues with that, the DV should be the focus" - "OK dear, I see your point, lets tackle that later."

See what I mean?

You have a lot of advocates in this. I said you would. But don't take that to mean everyone will be your advocate. They won't and if you pursue this as "right vs wrong", you will lose advocates. You buddy will know better than anyone, when you get out over your skis and he can tamp you down a bit.

Remember Gault. He had to lead by changing himself. He took a strong position with his wife. He took a strong position with himself... .looking and finding out how he was making matters worse in his marriage. His wife was the problem and his reaction to her was a problem. You have some of that going on too.

Skip, thanks for the feedback.  Yes, I see exactly what you're describing.  My buddy is aware of it, and knowing both him and his wife well, I know how he can play this moderating role.  The catch is that he's working two jobs, and travels for both, so he'll be gone until Thursday and is exhausted.  In the meanwhile, after mulling over the conversation with his wife, I came to the same conclusion that you did -- I shouldn't be looking to talk to her about anything other than straight kid logistics, and her role is to empathize with my wife.  If I push against that, it will damage things.  So I'll just hold steady until my buddy gets back and gets some rest.

W.r.t. work I need to do on my part, I'm going to need to put that on my therapist's goal list when I meet with her on Wednesday.  It feels like it will be a while before anything comes from my wife's side that is appropriate and I'm ready to hear.  Eventually my buddy could help here.  Right now, my mind is preoccupied with how my wife and her lawyers will respond, and if we'll see minimization of the DV, or acceptance and commitment to change.

Can you help me a little with Gault?  I read his success story summaries, as well as the raw threads I found, but somewhere around the December/January time frame, all of a sudden they have this new therapist that helps them, but they're on their 6th visit.  I think I missed some key posts, so the part about Gault's introspection is something I don't think I read about.  Any pointers/links?

Here's the update I drafted before reading Skip's reply.  It's pretty long -- it helped me to write it, and I wanted to share an update, but things are steady so if you're pressed for time don't feel compelled to read!

Things are progressing here.  My wife has a lawyer who has reached out to mine, but no substantive talks yet.  My lawyer knows my wife's, and respects her, so that's a good start.  My lawyer feels we are in good shape.  I looked up non-CLETS ROs online, and she and I agreed it is too early for that, as Skip had also suggested.  I met for the first time with an experienced DV therapist today who seems like a keeper, so that's quite a relief to get that support in place.  She is going to work on connecting me to someone for D12 so I can get her started before our court date.

I gave a copy of the restraining order to D12's school today, and talked to her principal.  I had very mixed feelings about doing it, and tried to rationalize my way out of it, but since they have a custodial responsibility, I have full custody for the moment, my lawyer told me to do it, and I want them to be watching out for her even if they don't say anything to her, it seemed unavoidable.  The conversation with the principal went well, and her plan for communicating with staff and teachers only the level of detail they needed seemed good to me.  D12's advisor is also her soccer coach, and her guidance counselor is an MFT, so there's a strong support network there.

I'm still working at a fraction of normal capacity.  I lied down and rested for a couple of hours this afternoon.  The rest of the time, I'm trying to concentrate on the most important tasks, and not worry about the other stuff, giving myself permission to do things slowly and take breaks.  I'm trying to look at this like a physical injury where you have to slow down a bit in the beginning to heal faster, but I'm looking forward to getting back in the game more.

I am enjoying the simplicity and focus of taking care of D12.  Cooking dinner for her, eating with her, and cleaning up with her were quite nice tonight.  She is a thoughtful, interesting kid, and when we're 1:1, our relationship is comfortable and easygoing with good conversations about school, sports, etc.  A few weeks back, she was asking me about N. Korea on a long car ride together, and we got to talking about the Strategic Defense Initiative, the cold war and fall of the Berlin wall and USSR, and every U.S. president back to Ronald Reagan!  She kept asking questions, so we kept going.

I'm noticing that I almost have a "criticism clock" beating a rhythm inside me so that I know when I'm doing something (like cooking) that I normally can't do without being criticized, or when it's been a long enough period of time without being told I'm doing something wrong that I feel like another dose is due.  But there's silence.  That silence makes me realize how pervasive the lack of respect was in my life and our home, and how far we have to go to heal if we can do that.  I miss my wife and worry about her, but know that she needs to sort herself out.  I felt an emotional urge to reach out to her and comfort her tonight, but realized how huge and impossible the task has been to be her emotional caretaker.  To be free of that burden for now is liberating but a little disorienting.

Tomorrow, I'm headed to the first meeting with the project team I'm coaching at the university.  I got a look at the project assignment, and they've only got about two and a half weeks to do a crazy amount of mechanical and electrical design and fabrication, coding, and testing.  I can see the road ahead of them clearly, and it reminded me that I know stuff and can be useful.  It also brought back memories of how little I slept when I took that class many years ago!

That's all for now. 

Thank you all!

RC

RC, I think this is a very interesting insight. I can relate to that expectation of criticism. You have a ton going on and a lot (of actions) to stay focused on, but I'm glad to hear that you are listening to your inner voice and reflecting on what is changing around you and inside of you.  

Keep on keepin' on. We are walking with you.  

heart

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