BPDFamily.com

Hi all,

Recently I was asked if I could see myself trusting someone who treated me like a Queen again.  I hadn't thought about this, as tbh dating is really the very last thing on my mind right now.  I have a lot of work to do on myself yet before I'd like to bring someone else fully into my world.  Some may know I also have an ongoing legal battle around custody of my son following my BPD r/s, so launching into a new r/s is hardly top of my priority list.  If I met anyone now, they would have to understand that it might take me a long time before I'd be ready for 'more'.

However it begs the question about whether I will be able to trust again enough to become truly close with a potential partner.  I see red flags everywhere, and whilst I feel unhindered in building friendships and flirting is not an issue, the prospect of actually giving of myself freely and entirely truly scares the crap out of me, putting it bluntly.  

In the past I've had a mixture of healthy and seriously unhealthy abusive relationships.  Looking at the two, comparing and contrasting, some of the initial stages could be mistaken for one another quite easily.  Even in the healthy relationships I felt hotly pursued at the outset, and was made to feel special throughout.  Herein lies my problem.  To tell the difference and not only that but more importantly to be willing to take the risk.  It feels so much safer to be single and not consider committing to something, which I know is still a lingering effect that I would like to move past gradually.  If this is going to take some time to actualise, then perhaps it is worth my efforts beginning at this point.  

I'm interested to know of others' experiences of having moved on to other relationships in their future and how they made the leap of faith required to actually give someone a chance.  Taking a look at myself and my traits I can understand how fear of intimacy and fear of abandonment (and engulfment) have affected my choices in the past yet I took risks boldly and ventured where my heart led me.  Now I struggle to both listen to and trust my own instincts, as I feel they are on red alert when it may not be necessary.  I could be overprotective or right in my gut feelings and it's hard to differentiate.  As I work on myself in therapy I will want to address these issues and look at ways to overcome them.  Right now, the bigger challenge is how do I allow myself to get into the position of finding out if a person is worthy of that trust if I retreat at the idea that they might be a prospect?  The fears I mention have always affected, yet never controlled me entirely and now I believe that is more the case.  Sometimes I can shut down my emotions as a coping mechanism from earlier in life and it seems that I'm able to maintain boundaries on myself that prevent me from considering progression within any new relationships, effectively keeping people at arm's length.  Having the ability to hold back and distance myself emotionally may mean I sabotage true opportunities for future happiness and that would be such a shame.  I have a lot of love to share in my own time and with the right person.

How can a person work on developing the ability to trust again when it has been so damaged over many years?  If anyone knows any tangible ways to practise this, I'd be curious to hear them.

Love and light x

After about a year or so after my ex and I split, I thought I was ready to date but I wasn't. Some good came out of it because I was able to confirm that I wasn't ready. A woman that I dated told me that she felt that I was still in love with my wife. I didn't like hearing that at first but I needed to because it was true. That woman and I are good friends now because she was able to share that with me in a non-judgemental way. She spoke the truth to me in a caring way. Even though we are only friends, I have been able to learn some healthy traits in someone that are safe and normal. Over the past year and a half when I would share struggles that I have with my ex, the first thing she asks is "How do you feel about that?". I hadn't had someone approach me like that before. I realize that it guided me to think about how I was feeling at that moment and why I was feeling that way. That helped me understand that I have more control over my feelings than I thought. She and I are only friends and I don't see us dating in the future but I'm good with that. She chose not to be a negative advocate for me. Never talks bad about my ex.

This past spring, I decided to start dating again and I have been dating a woman for about two months. I don't know where it will go because we are both taking it slowly. We communicate our intentions and have been able to learn more about each other. I've felt recently that this woman might be pulling back but I have only shared that with her briefly. She said that she has been busy which is true. She has been working extra hours to save for a trip to New York City with her D24. I noticed that I didn't seem to be bothered by the fact that she may be pulling back but maybe it's me? I'm going to see my T on Monday and plan on discussing that with her.

So two and a half years out, I know that I'm much closer to being able to date again but not sure if I'm all the way there. I have noticed that my ex is rarely a topic now when I have been on dates so that's a plus.
Maybe I'm the one holding back?

Harley that is a beautifully written description of the lasting damage such relationships leave you with. It is your trust that is hurt the deepest. Mine even asked for it, so she could destroy it.

Looking back I should have trusted myself, the red flags were there and I have seen them since. I'm learning that trust, but I do have the advantage of experiencing behaviour so extremely manipulative and dishonest, that I am in no doubt my ex has some form of PD, and that I was a victim of that disorder.

Disorder is confusing, it is unpredictable and is without control. I believe that many people with undiagnosed PD have found ways to control that disorder, but that this way usually involves using another person to do so in some way. The extreme insecurity, the extreme fear, it leads to extreme manipulation to feel not just safe, but strong. Abuse

I find myself asking who I am a lot of the time. Am I a fool? A mug? Was I narcissistic to think I could help, did I make her so insecure she fell apart? I must learn, take responsibility and grow to be better. Those things are right and good and selfless. I trust those things.

You see red flags everywhere? They are everywhere, no one is perfect,  it I knew in only relationship I've tried since her when they added up to too much, and I was right. Difference is we are friends now.

Before you trust another person, you must trust yourself. I think the best way to build that is to learn, take responsibility and grow.

Dearest HQ-

Beautifully written... .but I cannot say when you'll know.  I feel like a page in the book of your life, maybe a question on that page- am I truly trusting, or completely aloof?  I am unable to discern.

I wish you true happiness.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

I am still hypervigilant and because of that I haven’t dated for several years,I am still recovering from my 10 YEars of dealing with a BPD (Married for 7).

 

I think that we are all wise to not just give trust. Trust is something that must be earned over time. I also truly believe that our giving over trust too easily is what got us into our respective situations.

Like you, I cannot trust my gut. I struggle to discern whether it is my insecurities or actual problems or  red-flag . I read posts on here all of the time where one member tells another to "trust your gut." That advice makes me very nervous. When you live in a world of fear, your gut tends to lie to you.

I think this is where Mindfulness (https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind) comes into play. We have to think with both parts of our minds.

This is something I struggle with a lot. I'm a HSS/HSP. My desire for intense sensations and my increased, emotional sensitivity can steer me in the wrong direction. They overcome rational thoughts as I find ways to rationalize the benefits of fulfilling my desires.

I'm learning to temper this by looking at consistency. What is real will still be real over time. The intensity of feelings are still wonderful, but I try to just let them flow through me. I'm still struggling with this, but I'm working on it. In the meantime, I try to enjoy as much as I can in life and focus on the things that I truly want.

One of the things that I'm discovering is that my desire to feel valued and important has guided most of my life. I know the source of this, so that helps. My T is trying to get me to accept that not everyone is going to be like my FOO, and that I've chased people that were similar to them because it is what is familiar to me. This effectively did nothing but to perpetuate the delusion that everyone is like my FOO.

Sorry, this became sort of a ramble. My point is that not everyone is like those in our past, we need to seek balance in our thoughts, respond not react, and look for consistency.

Hey Harley, trust is a weird concept. When we have it we tend not to think about it, and when we don't it's as if it never existed in the first place.

But what is trust? Is it being ok with any outcome? Is it being able to assert ourselves? Is it... .some kind of preemptive knowledge of the future? Or is it just how we assess risk in terms of our own fears?

For me, trusting in anything has to revolve around some kind of goal. In other words, if I don't want anything in life there's no reason for me to have to trust anyone or anything. Humans are social creatures. It's natural for us to seek relationships to rely on for some things. So I think it starts with really digging into questions like "what am I realistically capable of giving myself emotionally, physically, financially, etc?"

In short, there are lots of things we can and should do to keep ourselves happy, strong, and healthy. Finding a partner to share life with is one of them, but as most people find out... .this is usually the icing on the cake after everything else is in place. So, cut yourself some slack. You're going through a lot right now. It seems like you just need a little bit of time away from the drama, and once that's over and you have some emotional distance from your ex you'll be able to make a more honest assessment on what you really want.

Hey HQ, It seems like you are making it hard for yourself by viewing trust as an all-or-nothing proposition.  Maybe you can start out by trusting someone only a little at the outset, until you get to know that person better.  I would suggest that it's a gradual process.

Being in a relationship, of course, involves allowing oneself to be open and vulnerable, which means that you could be hurt.  Yet if you are together with a kind and caring person, maybe the risk is minimal.

What I have attempted to do in my post-BPD relationships is to let things unfold naturally, which sounds easy but is actually pretty hard to do.  I have a tendency to project and jump ahead, whereas I find things go better if I can stay more in the moment.

Good luck!  You can do it.

LuckyJim

Hi HQ,

For me, I just took the leap.  I was never one who NEEDED to be in a relationship.  I like my alone time.  But I was so distraught after my BPD nightmare -- I dated here and there, nothing clicked at all.  And then this special person came around. 

I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.  I keep waiting for her to start painting me black.  It's been 8 months now and both shoes are still on!  Actually, they are both off, we both hate wearing shoes actually. 

She and I have both been stung in the past.  But we are both mature enough to know how to communicate.  I can (and have) told her anything and everything, and she doesn't flinch.  She wonders what I was doing mixed up in that craziness -- but she had been mixed up in craziness too in her life.  She doesn't judge me.  She never shames me.
Nor I her.  She can tell me anything  And she has.  And she marvels I don't judge her.  So we support each other.  We trust each other. 

I mean who knows.  Her dad was an alcoholic and abandoned her.  Her mom was cold and aloof.  She is divorced.
She absolutely adores me, I'm on a pedestal again.   Are these red flags?  Maybe tomorrow she will split me black.  I seriously doubt it.

But meanwhile, in the present moment, right here right now, it is very good.  Why would I pass that up.  Why should you?  Not many present moments left.  Don't let the enduring scar from your BPD experience be fear and trust issues of your own.

There are good people out there.  And if you hook another crazy one, just cut your line instantly.

Maybe this is both a feeling and a fact.  I'd say it's true that it's safer to be single.  What do you think?

Can we define safer as used here?

Thanks everyone for your replies with some great food for thought. I'll be back with further comments when I'm able.  On a car park right now and dislike posting from my phone.

Turkish, yes I completely agree that it's a fact it's safer to be single. I guess it's finding the willingness to give something a go and feeling it's worth doing so which could hold me back. I can harden myself so much that I'd hate to think I'd never fully connect on that intimate level with a worthy other again in my lifetime.

Meili, safer to me means physically and emotionally. I fear that finding myself in an abusive relationship again would be unsafe for both parties. My tolerance for abuse is all used up. Also, safer based on the circumstances around my current legal battle. My son is my top priority and bringing someone into his life is a huge risk I'm not sure I'm willing to take.

Love and light x

I can completely understand the desire to avoid finding ourselves in such situations again. For me, that comes down more to trusting myself to take care of myself and not allow poor treatment than it does another person. I cannot rely on others to treat me well if I allow them to do otherwise.

I also get your concerns about the legal battle. The thing with that is that by living in fear of your ex taking you back to court just because you get involved with someone gives him power and control over your life. Just something to think about.

That being said, I certainly agree that getting involved with someone while all of that is going on is probably not your best plan.

Justbecause, you are so right here.  I think that trusting myself is a big part of this.  What scares me is that my ex was diagnosed before I met him.  I knew he had the disorder and fairly quickly it was clear that he was on the extreme end of the spectrum, yet I stayed.  I am quick to rescue.  Being capable of dealing with a lot is a strength and a curse.  The things I coped with and endured I wouldn't wish on anyone.  This worries me deeply.  It is possible that I have become somewhat hardened to abuse and more able to tolerate very distressing and outright shocking, utterly traumatic experiences because truthfully I've had so many in my life and this is a major concern.  I allowed myself to get to the edge of oblivion rather than make myself a priority long before that point as anyone healthy would. 

In as much as I am ready for better than all of that, I don't honestly know what I would do with 'normal'.  So naturally my judgement on these things is in question right now. 

Whilst I am a high sensation seeker and crave passion, excitement and adventure in my life, I'd like to be able to share that with someone who doesn't cross that line into destruction, chaos and abuse.  Sometimes the lines can be blurry.  I still have a degree of PTSD to contend with and am hyper vigilant, so I know it's far too soon to be thinking about real lasting relationships as I'm simply not ready.  Like I said, I have a lot of further self work to do in order to tackle the codependency and my own traits that contribute to dysfunction in relationships before I feel I can truly differentiate and be a separate entity in a r/s.  The fact that I can be so drawn in, hard and fast, scares the socks off me and that's putting it mildly. 

At the same time, I know so much more than I did, have done a lot of work to this point and feel I have come far since the end of my BPD r/s.  Although I've always been clear on my core values, unfortunately they can very quickly be pushed aside to accommodate others' needs.  I now practise defining and maintaining these boundaries and I believe (or so I'm told) that I'm actually achieving this pretty well.  It's all very new to me and I stumble yet it's giving me hope that I can value myself and those things that are important to me enough to have confidence in my instincts in the future and remain firm.  I'm also honing my skills on regulating my own emotions and that includes preventing myself from falling hard for the first person who makes me feel I'm seen.  This comes down to FOO stuff which I recognise and know has affected a great many of my choices in the past.     

Thank you so much for your response. 

Love and light x                               

Boundaries... .passion, excitement and adventure don't have the ability to cross lines if we don't ALLOW them to be blurry.  Those decisions to allow boundary crossing belong to us, and that's why so many of us find ourselves here.  It's up to us... .to look after ourselves. 

HQ — it sounds like you are very self aware. It sounds like your experiences have made you so. It’s hard to imagine you repeating the mistakes of past codependency with this level of self awareness.   I just personally think you should try to leave yourself open to all the universe brings your way.  Life is too short, a good relationship is very special, and maybe not to do so would be a lasting victory for whoever hurt you. 

I must agree with drained. Our boundaries are our own to maintain, and we must trust in ourselves to do so. Like you, I'm a high sensation seeker. I crave passion and experience. But, I also know that there are limits. I've tried to switch my thinking so that learning those limits has become part of my passions.

For me, it has come down to figuring out what I truly want in life and the best way to achieve that goal while staying true to myself. It's definitely a work in progress, but it is definitely worth the effort.

Have you figured out what you truly want?

Hi HQ,

Wish there was an easy answer to this! In the past I just was naturally trusting and it's never bothered me to be so. I always did a bit of screening with potential partners, but I think there is no way to have a fool-proof guarantee no matter how much you slow it down or ask. I don't know. I do like to think if I ever date again some day (though at my age and with my lack of enthusiasm it's low on my list of life goals) I'd have more screening questions that could sort things out before I got in too deep.

In the past I tended to think I could handle all that was thrown my way and not (apparently) worry enough about things. I expected some problems in my current situation, I did not expect an ongoing, unrelenting life of crisis. I know for sure what a few new red lines are for me - a partner who is unable to cook is not gonna work for me again, and never is anyone with any kind of inkling of jealousy. But here I am getting ahead of myself... .It's just that I've been down the break up and then eventually find someone new path before and for me it is less appealing than ever to be involved/restart.

I want to learn to make peace with a life alone first - to give up all fear over that so I am never "trapped" giving my all (and well beyond) to someone who may simply not be equipped to participate in a healthy mutual relationship.

I think the word trust can sometimes get a bit oversized... .What does trust mean for you? On what particular issues does it apply? What would make you feel safe and secure and able to give and receive love in a healthy, happy way? 

Hi Meili,

This is a good question.  I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up and I'm not sure I entirely have, if we're talking about that involving a life partner.  I don't actively seek one and never have.  I'm actually very independent and totally happy by myself in my own space.  Of course it's nice to have all the blessings that come with a relationship when I'm in one, but I am also perfectly content being single.  Men appear in my life and I fall into relationships not by planning to be in one but because I go with the flow and follow my heart.  It was 18 months between my last 2 r/s's and has been up to a couple of years between others, during which time I've never pined for a partner in my world.  This may be because I struggle to accept support and it is something I've been really working on, as I've always been self sufficient and never wanted to rely upon anyone for anything that can be removed at will, including love.  Yes another FOO gremlin in the works.

When it comes to an 'ideal partner' I do have a good idea of the type of person I would want to be with, but again it's not part of my fixed plan that they must be in the picture for me to go on to do the things I want to do.  :)oes that make sense?  I think I guard myself against thinking that is a possibility.  When I was with my BPD ex I let that guard down and allowed myself to believe that I could have it all.  Although that proved to be a mistake I don't regret allowing myself to have that feeling and live that dream for a time, because otherwise I might never have found it in my life and that would be a loss for me.  What I learned is that I am capable of letting go enough to believe and that tells me I can believe again.  When I can trust myself and another enough to reach that point I guess.  

Love and light x      

Hi Seenowayout,

Thank you for this.  I totally agree.  In fact I'm pretty sure I've used almost identical words myself to friends in the past.  I just need reminding sometimes that I am also worthy of the same.  What I need to focus on is what I'm asking the universe for.  That's probably a good place to start.

Love and light x

Hi Gems,

I think you know exactly where I'm coming from.  I can be such a puzzle to myself... .
 
Thanks for your reply.

Love and light x

Hi Legio,

I'm sorry to hear that.  Did you attempt to date at all and then choose not to or have you avoided the idea altogether?  What steps have you taken in your recovery?  I have found investing in my own growth by taking courses and starting up new activities has helped me to rebuild myself.  It's the emotional scars that are left which can take longest to fade.  Hang in there and keep posting.

Love and light x

Pearls, you ask some great questions here.

Trust to me is believing what I see is real.  That what I'm told is genuine and free of dishonesty.  The truth is a huge core value to me and the number one thing I want and expect in a relationship.  Once I am lied to trust is gone.  The problem with honesty, is it can be hard to tell and I'm afraid that even as someone who is trained in NLP it can be difficult to detect untruths in a serial liar like a couple of my exes.  So openness and honesty are hugely important to me and it is a case of wanting to feel able to trust others to respect this value.  Of course it would also be nice if my property wasn't destroyed, stolen, my money squandered and myself physically assaulted.  Although those things are overt and can be stopped in the first instance by having clear boundaries that I uphold, as others on this thread have rightly pointed out.

I'm not sure what would make me feel safe right now, although LuckyJim made some great points about taking things slowly, trusting a little and allowing things to develop naturally instead of projecting ahead.  I think he was absolutely right about that.  Maybe this is the way towards learning that someone is actually worthy of trust, before I decide one way or the other.  I can be quick to jump in and just as easily quick to hold back.  Valet is also right that I need to cut myself some slack and get through what I'm experiencing right now before I start to consider new risks.

Thanks for your reply.  I'm going to think some more about what you've asked and may be back with more to add.

Love and light x

Hi HQ,

I can totally relate to this post, so thank you for bringing up this topic. I seem to have acquired a fear, since my relationship with pwBPD, that I can't trust my instincts, too.

I'm not sure if my therapist shared this with me, or I read it somewhere, but I thought it was good advice: share a little, then observe, feel, take in the other person's response. Watch and listen. Then, at a another time, share a little more... .then watch and feel. As we become adept at observing, listening, and feeling in our new relationships, we will be better able to trust our reactions and judgments. It may feel unnatural, or too slow, or weird, but I think sharing ourselves in bite sizes   at first can be very revealing. You'll see and feel things that will help you decide if you feel safe continuing to open your heart to the other person.

Another thing my therapist said to me that I'll never forget: I asked her if she thought (trusted) that I had the skills to have a successful relationship and deal with the challenges that will inevitably come up. She said "I know you do, heart, but do you trust that you do?" 

Maybe you are on a lot firmer ground than you think, HQ? 

heartandwhole

Codependency... .interests... .romantic partners... .boundaries

Over the past two weeks, I've learned how these things can interact and play a part in my dysfunctional relationships. Maybe what I discovered can be of help to you (however, I strongly suspect that you already know this and can see it in others much easier than yourself):

I give up my own interests and desires in favor of making my romantic partners happy or avoiding conflict. Because of the fears associated with not being good enough or managing the conflict and results, I do not maintain my boundaries. So, when I start to forgo my own interests or desires in favor of another, that should be a  red-flag to me and I need to re-evaluate what is happening. This will help me trust myself better.

Can you see what caused you to not maintain your boundaries in the past?

Nicely put, Meili.  In terms of giving up my own needs in order to keep the peace, you described my marriage to my BPDxW to a "T."  As a result, I had to learn about boundaries "on the fly" which was at first challenging.  Now it's easier to stand up for myself, because I know myself better having gone through the BPD crucible and am aware when I see a red flag.   red-flag

What caused me to have poor boundaries in the past?  For starters, my parents lacked good boundaries.  Then I married someone like my mother who declined to respect boundaries and treated me like a doormat.  So, in a simplistic sense, I recreated a dynamic from childhood in my marriage to a pwBPD.  Presumably I was subconsciously trying to resolve boundary issues from childhood in my marriage to my BPDxW, which was like going from the frying pan into the fire.

LuckyJim

That's the way that it worked for me as well LJ. I've been playing out scripts that I learned from a very young age.

HQ, have you determined the original source of the distrust?

Heart, you make a really good point here and have hit the nail on the head with what I've been struggling with.  I am finding that when I meet new people, rather than say "this is me" and spill all about myself, I am holding back and trying out for size this gradual release of information.  What I'm finding is that I feel both I and the other person are acutely aware of this holding back.  It does feel unnatural and strange.  Sort of not who I am, and a little like trying to be someone else.  I guess it's going to take more practise.  I will stick with it though, and be present with how that makes me feel, as well as sitting with the response I get.  Thanks for helping me to see that it is worth it long term, which is what I hope to find. 
Your T is good!  The comment about trusting that you have the skills really made me think.  I do think a lot of my worry comes down to belief in myself after having failed so many times.  As I look at it now, what I have learned is what NOT to do... .
And that is good.

Love and light x 

It does come down to belief in ourselves, and learning what not to do is a great thing... .learning WHY we did the things we should not do was my part of my own personal understanding and path.   
Ultimately, I didn't believe in myself fully, and I had to know and learn why. 

Vulnerability was the theme of my therapy session last night.  I've always felt like being vulnerable was a sign of weakness, and that it opened you up to being hurt.  I shared with my therapist that my ex was the first man I've truly been vulnerable with, and now I feel "Well, I tried that and I got hurt, not gonna do that again."

This thread resonates with me because I keep worrying how I'm going to be able to try being vulnerable with someone again.  It was already exceedingly difficult for me.

Hey araneina, Here's a quotation that I recently came across that seems on point:

"he who cannot reveal himself cannot love, and he who cannot love is the most unhappy man of all."

-- Soren Kierkegaard

And I should have believed him when he point blank told me he didn't think he was capable of giving or receiving love. 

But I think I know what you're trying to say.  It is a good thing that I allowed myself to love this man.  And I am trying my best to realize that I will have to take that risk again if I ever want to be loved in return.

I think that's a telling statement, particularly in light of the Kierkegaard quote.  Like your Ex, my former SO was unable to let her feelings towards me flow; instead, she kept her guard up, due to past trauma.  At the end of the day, she had what I would describe as an emotional block that prevented her from allowing herself to love, much as you describe with your Ex.

I wouldn't say that you "should" have believed him, but I would suggest that, in the future, that type of statement could play a role in determining how much you are willing to trust someone.  I have to remind myself of the same thing going forward with future relationships, so for both of us it's a work-in-progress!

LJ

My ex had a terrible, invalidating childhood. He had an ex of 3 years that he said he loved, even wanted to marry, but he admitted it was a rocky relationship and it fell apart.

I believe he is still in love with her. He was so bitter about marriage (she got married while we dated) and I often wonder if he was bothered by her getting married while he was still struggling to move on.  How can you ever open your heart up to another person when someone else already occupies it?

Sigh. It's a learning process, yes. :)  We'll get there.

We certainly will.  I think that the big lesson I've been ignoring throughout my r/s history is that although I am quite 'all or nothing' - yes black and white if you will - about opening up and allowing myself to be vulnerable, the learning I needed was around WHO to open up to entirely.  Getting that part right means taking time to gradually assess the dynamic and get to know a person better before making that decision. 

Being cautious about my own vulnerability stems back unsurprisingly to my FOO.  There came a point in my childhood where I shut down and built high walls around myself so that I could not be hurt by leaving myself open for someone to withdraw what I felt I needed.  I became independent at a young age and did everything for myself.  As I grew up it was always my conscious intention to be self sufficient and never rely on anyone for anything.  So it is difficult for me to take that leap, however leapt I have, just with the wrong people.  Without putting enough time and thought in first.  All the signs were there - I just ignored them because I was already invested. 

It's clear that to change the patterns in my life I must do something differently.  Working on the codependency, respecting my own boundaries and spotting the early hooks when they are presented are going to be my continued focus, so that I can be clear about when someone is deserving of my trust. 

Thanks everyone for your great replies.  I'll be back with responses soon to those questions I haven't yet covered.  Lots of food for thought here.  I'm glad this thread resonates with others.

Love and light x     

 

I empathize with this.  I am fiercely independent and view accepting help as another indication of weakness. 

I've tried to figure out what it was about my ex that enabled me to be vulnerable with him.  I remember frequently thinking "Gosh he's just so emotionally available and open!"  He kept saying to me that I was guarded, he couldn't read me... .which was very frustrating because I personally felt as though I was being very open with him.  Unfortunately the last 3 men I've dated have all said similar things about me.  I guess... .maybe I don't know what being vulnerable is.

My therapist says she doesn't want me to take this last relationship as a reason to strengthen the wall I've built around myself.  I don't want to do that either.

To all, isn't whether we can trust again a common thread among all relationships if we've been hurt?  Most of us do trust again but with a view from a different angle.  One can't love w/o being vulnerable.  Life isn't fair but when there's a break up the pain now was actually part of the pleasure then while in love.  Has anyone mastered the art of love?  I don't think so, there will always be risks, its unavoidable.  Best to all in finding the right place for them to be.

HarleyQ,

this is a great thread bc it brings up so many things that are on the table to conquer.  I have been listening to Ethel Perels videos about infidelity and I'm learning alot.  Those of us on this forum are not the only ones that have been stung.  As Ethel points out, we are in a time when monogamy is a very fragile concept.  In fact, as she says, "monogamy used to be I will be with you for life. and now monogamy seems to be, 'one relationship at a time and we'll see how it goes'".   So it's not just those of us recovering from BPD partners or npd partners that are feeling unsafe.  There is a whole world out there the doesn't even know if they want to be with a partner forever anymore even if their partner is healthy! 

Has the subconscious conditioning of society through social media etc led humans to believe that we cannot be happy in relationships?  I think both experts and non experts and healthy and non healthy people are struggling to define this.  Her work focuses on how to heal from infidelity because it is so prevalent in society these days.  She believes it may have to do with the fact that people are so dissatisfied with their lives that they want to claim a part of them; a fantasy part of them that makes them feel like they have lived before they die. 

So your feeling of not being able to trust is shared by many.  But trust is an act we do isn't it?  we say we trust- meaning have no reason to believe another will hurt us when we feel safe right?  How can we feel safe after being with a disordered person or now just living in a society of people who chase biochemical thrills when they are bored? 

As i  read the stories of people with ex borderline or narcissistic partners one thing seems to be a common thread; they made us feel special in some way.  One of my friends who was burned by two narcissistic relationships has been teaching me what she has learned.  That is to ask what our vulnerabilities were in the relationships.  Hers was giving to her partner what her dad didn't give to her.  So he was emotionally unavailable and she found these sweet guys who "needed" her in some way.  So she let them move in with her after a period of time because she thought that was normal.  Both men were so quick to take her offer on that.  My friend says she will be on the lookout for that again.  I told her well coming off a BPD/npd relationship my life is in rebuilding and I purposely feel reluctant to date because i don't want to burden a woman with my problems.   As we compare these facts it helps us to look at certain aspects of what we were susceptible to.  For me it was the family.  Both my ex wife and this past partner brought me into their world of family very quickly.  I'm not saying it's wrong that they did it but for me it was my achilles heal.  I craved a family with my first because i came from a small, dsyfunctional family.  After the divorce (20yr marriage) with my exBPD wife i was blocked from her family and my kids have been alienated from me.  When i met my recent exgf she had three kids and she was the same religion as me.  She was popular and took me around to all her social contacts.  I felt like I belonged.  So my vulnerability was BELONGING. 

As life would have it, i have met a new female friend since my breakup and neither one of us want a romantic relationship right now. However, she has invited me to events with her daughter and we have had a good time.   A few night ago i was at an event with her and then afterwards her and her daughter (13) had a nice conversation in the car.  She like you is going through a custody battle and has no interest in a romantic relationship.  We talked about masculine and feminine energy in relationship etc. The daughter said, "my mom doesn't like to be vulnerable".  I said that i understood the need for practical protection in the world that we live in.  And that we are all learning about how to walk the line between when to wear our armor and when to take it off.

Harley, i know i'm going on and on but i wanted to share these points because as i related to this woman and her daughter i noticed one key element was lacking that my exgf had- this feeling of her wanting me physically or being attracted to me in an intense way.  I checked in with myself and realized that i felt safer with someone dont wanting me in this way or showing me that they want me in that way but it also taught me about my vulnerability quotient- vulnerability number 1) I liked being wanted because i wasn't wanted by my core family or even now my kids. 2) i like being part of something like a family or core group.   In conclusion, I feel like looking at my vulnerability quotient has helped me see where i need to have my own armor on and hopefully will help me navigate. 

I also met a man who was cheated on and when he met his current fiance, he asked her if she was wiling to go to therapy with him before they got super serious. She agreed.  He felt that was a sign of being willing to work on the relationship even though it was early on.  I thought about that because my ex's didn't like counselors and probably wouldn't have gone.  Maybe that helps build the feelings of safety too.   Also maybe you can find a man like in my situation that just wants to be social friends with you or be a companion versus a lover.  I realized with my ex i would have been happy to just be her companion and not have sex with her.  Unfortunately once we did cross that bridge we couldn't go back.  Hope i didn't overshare here just have been thinking about this stuff so much and i'm glad you posted about it.

Same for me, HQ.  I suspect that this experience from childhood made me particularly susceptible to a r/s with a pwBPD, though I am unsure exactly why this is so.  Maybe you have an idea?

LJ

I've been looking at it like this.  If I see a lion in the wild I'm gonna think "Awesome, a lion.  I'm gonna hang back here by this tree so it doesn't hurt me."  But if I saw a lion that was maybe struggling to breathe, or bleeding badly, I might be more inclined to get close to it, maybe even touch it, because a wounded animal doesn't pose as much of a threat to me (in my mind).  I dunno.  Maybe on some level I detected my ex was wounded and it made it easier for me to get close to him and make myself vulnerable.

Unfortunately it's the wounded animals that are the most dangerous, since they really have nothing to lose.

Perhaps this deserves its own thread, but it seemed fitting here:

How are you defining trust?

Reading with the replies here, I'm struggling to understand the position from which you are all coming. It is not up to another person to keep us safe, it's up to us.

If we remain lovingly detached, how much damage can another person actually do?

Like others, I have been independent most of my life. Mine was thrust upon me rather than a choice though. As a result, I accepted early on that people come and go from our lives. I mourn my losses when they leave. I do not, however, blame them for my choices. No one can take anything from me that I don't freely give. So, for me, as I said in an earlier reply, trust isn't about the other person, it is about myself. The other person can be a saint or a sinner, I have to trust myself and what I want to give. That does not change.

For me, much like our pwBPD counterparts, I always assume that people are going to hurt me. As a result, I regulate how close I allow them to get. That closeness decision is based on how I feel about the other person. But, because I've had to keep myself safe since a very early age, I have learned to always keep myself distant enough that I am safe.

When my x and I split, it was devastating to me emotionally, but I have never blamed her for that. She did not violate my trust. I messed up and allowed myself to become enmeshed with her. I gave up who I was based on what I perceived she wanted. There was and still is zero blame on her.

So, are we really talking about trusting ourselves, or are we talking about others?

I'll use a dog example instead of a lion.  If you had raised and trained a pitbull or doberman and it seemed very tame and obedient and respectful and this went on for years and then all of a sudden it bit you or attacked you unprovoked was it the dogs fault for bad behavior or the owners fault for trusting that the dog was seeming normal and trained?   I think in order to avoid the BPD trap of thinking; it's not one or the other- how about we didn't know the dog would turn on us- so in that way it's not our fault for trusting or should i say feeling safe until then.  And the dog could have been fine but then got an infection or something like rabies affected it and we didn't know and now it turned on us.  Is is the dogs fault that it got Rabies? 

I don't think the conversation is about blame; it is about how to proceed after being bitten.  There will always be the memory of the dog turning on you even though he was a good dog before.  The human brain seems to remember those painful memories because of our cingulate gyrus.  It becomes overactive.  Yes Mell we can operate from the point of view of expecting others to hurt us but isn't that just taking on our former partners projections?   In fact, their expectation of abandonment and being hurt is what usually drives their negative behaviors.   

In the dog example, how do we trust new dogs when we remember that one turned on us. It's a complicated question that lies somewhere between being guarded all the time and realizing that the beloved dog we had changed because of a disease.  I don't think it's blame to say that our partners change.   Yes we have a responsibility to set boundaries and not let someone "bite" us more then once or repeated times but the issue isn't black and white; it is too fluid for that.  We are all at different points in awareness.   

Maybe knowing what to look for sooner tips us off and then we can be on our guard. Our we may never get a new partner again like not getting a new dog again.   The answers lie within us and that is the journey i believe we are on.  I see both sides and i must choose for myself. 

Yes.  I did not care for the insinuation that we were blaming our partners.  I am always quick to say that I don't blame him for what happened - it was a partnership, after all.  There were 2 of us.  But I do not want to place myself in that kind of situation again.  For me that means looking inwards and determining what it was about my partner that attracted me.  He had many excellent qualities that I still desire in a partner.  But like you said - there were things that rang bells in my head that I willingly ignored.  I do not want to make that mistake again.

I think that there is a huge difference between accepting responsibility for myself and being guarded.

To continue with the dog analogy: I know that all dogs are capable of biting and causing damage. I also know that any dog at any moment must make the choice to follow its instincts or its training. Taking these things as true, it then becomes my responsibility to ensure my safety. I cannot rely on the dog to do so. In fact, this is a very, real-world example for me.

When I was a young child, my family had our beloved Great Dane. I have wonderful scars on my upper lip and the top of my head from when the dog bit me when I was 9 or 10 years old. I am not guarded against dogs. I do not fear dogs. I do not have a lack of trust for dogs per se. I just respect what dogs are capable of doing and govern my actions around them accordingly.

When we look at our relationships, it is the same thing. Whenever we are vulnerable with anyone, we are in the position of being hurt. As with the dog analogy, sometimes things happen that out of the ordinary. I don't look at every dog and think that it will bite me, I just understand that it could. I've been involved with physically abusive women. Does that mean that I think that every woman will be physically abusive and do I guard myself against it? No. I do know that it is possible that a woman may be physically abusive however and the appropriate amounts of caution are used.

I think that the trick for must of us is learning how much caution to apply, when to apply it, and where.

I think we are all saying relatively the same thing, just using different words.

If I look at a dog and its lips are curled and its baring its teeth, I'm going to exercise caution.  If I go on a date with a man and he spends 20 minutes talking about his cheating/crazy exes, I'm going to exercise caution (actually, in that case, I'll run like the wind).

However if I were to pet a sleeping dog and it snapped at me, that's my fault and I wouldn't think much of it.  Not really sure what a good analogy for that in terms of a relationship would be.