BPDFamily.com

Hi guys,

I think this it the right place, but it could perhaps fit as well on the 'learning from the wounds' board... .

The thing I miss most is not being able to talk about why it all went haywire. I couldn't ask her about why she was suddenly painting me black. I couldn't ask her about the lies. I couldn't ask her about any of the weird stuff really... .

Well, of course I could ask her. And I did. But she avoided my questions, ignored me altogether or said something in return which wasn't actually an answer to my question... .Or even redoubled her efforts to paint me black.

Sometimes when I read all your stories here, I actually think about asking her again to have a final talk about everything. But I haven't and I most probably won't. I do not even know if she truly has the answers herself and I guess the shame would prohibit her from having such a conversation.

A friend who knew my story didn't even know about BPD, but already said to me early on: "she won't apologise, she won't be able to talk about it. As she started painting you black, she went in a path which only knows escalation. She cannot and will not stray from this path, even if she would like to, because that would mean 'losing face'".

Well... .with BPD or BPD traits this probably is even more true due to the shame which must be avoided at all cost. Personally, I have received these texts without an excuse, but 'sounding like an excuse'. I have seen the extremely superficial way of dealing with problems. It was just like it 'never happened'.

I am really looking forward to hear about your experiences with 'closure'/'an ending conversation' or whatever you would like to call it. Have you tried? Did it help you? How did you manage to actually talk about the bad things in your r/s in a meaningful way?

Personally I am voting for option 4. But it sure felt and feels like option 5 though... .

Thank you guys! And HAPPY NEW YEAR!     

Hi EdR,


I think for people with BPD (pwBPD), their motivation for devaluation isn't their pride.  They devalue (paint us black) us as a coping mechanism. Sometimes they are devaluing (us or other previous loved ones) as a means of projecting their own insecurities.  It's like in the BPD mind, only one person needs to be wrong in order for the other person to be absolved.  So even if they did something they might be ashamed of, if they convince themselves that the other person "forced" them to do what they did, or if they focus on the failings of the other person, they can forget about their own weakness or failing.  This is why some pwBPD can never admit wrong and always find a way to pin the blame on us.

In the aftermath of a breakup, I find that some pwBPD *need* to paint us black and focus on this devaluation in order to forget or displace their own actions for which they might otherwise be ashamed.  So it's not so much that they care what other people think of their actions, it's that they need to displace the (self) ramifications of own actions.

This is why you rarely if ever hear about an BPD loved one talking about how they once treated someone important to them in their past badly.  It's always the people in their past who treated them badly.

And this is why I don't think there ever can be closure granted by our BPD loved ones.  Because they don't seem to be able process that closure themselves.  It's either "I was completely wronged" or "I'd forgotten I'd ever cared about that person." And kind of unresolved resolution of the ending of a relationship makes it impossible for them to learn any lessons from how a relationship ended.  If you can never accept how some of the behavior you exhibited contributed to the ending of a relationship, how can you ever learn to change this behavior that is causing such strife?  And so they seemed doomed to repeat the same cycles over and over again, only with different partners.


I would describe their behavior as a very internally elaborate way of *not* dealing with problems.


In my BPD relationship, even while we were together, we alternated between being perfect for each other (idealization) or else she could never articulate specifically why things didn't "feel right" for her about our relationship.  She couldn't articulate it probably because she was unable to confront the nature of what was behind her feelings (i.e. her disorder).  And if she wasn't able to face it, what could I do?  But I did keep trying to "fix" it, whatever it seemed to be. The target kept on changing. And ultimately it was not something for me to fix.  I just didn't know this until years later.

Best wishes,

Schwing

A false restraining order after he said we were going in peace... .then still delivered my mail
No closure at all... .just moved right along... .no concept of letting me heal ... .

Today I saw he posted on a public forum I was thinking earlier of msg him asking for some closure... .just been struggling

Thanks guys and thank you Schwing for sharing your experience. I really loved this part:

"In my BPD relationship, even while we were together, we alternated between being perfect for each other (idealization) or else she could never articulate specifically why things didn't "feel right" for her about our relationship.  She couldn't articulate it probably because she was unable to confront the nature of what was behind her feelings (i.e. her disorder). "

This inability to articulate those things is what I experienced as well... .

Kind of a shame though that people with such powerful emotions/feelings are so bad at communicating those feelings... .

Keep it coming guys. I am seeing more votes than posts, so I would like to hear a little about your closure attempts as well.

I received absolutely no closure whatsoever. My BPDexgf kissed me goodbye and told me she'd be back, went on vacation, then never returned, stringing me along on the phone for a while until I put an end to that. It was an excruciating end to a 2 year relationship which left me with more questions than answers, and is the reason I ended up on this site.

These BPD people are terribly disordered, and I've accepted that I will never truly understand what goes on in their heads nor do I want to ever be involved with another. In hindsight, it was an awful experience when I consider the pain of the loss and how I was tossed aside like I never even mattered.

Wow crushedagain, I feel for you. There is so much hurt on these boards... .And of all it could at least become manageable if our pwBPD just would provide some degree of closure. The inability (or unwillingness) to do so is actually mind-blowing!


Do you think this poll would have a different outcome when "saving board" people would react?
Or is this as Schwing suggested the eventual outcome of any BPD relation. Thus we perhaps could continue the r/s, but there will aways be this lingering feeling of doubt due to the fact we're not able to genuinely talk about things... .

The thing that helped me most is that when I was suddenly dumped for another woman, I immediately went onto therapy. I also had rapid eye movement treatment and it helped tremendously. Learning about this disorder and changing my thinking about it into a clinical sense helped me become indifferent to my ex but understand his process of thinking. It helped me put things into perspective that what he did has nothing to do with me and who I am as a person. And I truly learned that closure is always within my own reach and only given to me by me. Even in the best of circumstances where the door is open in any situation for me to receive closure from someone else, the power truly lies within me to give myself closure, not to be given to me by someone else. A person can talk and talk and talk at you and tell you how wonderful you are but when the end result still is they are rejecting you, does closure from them really matter? You're still going to be upset. Ultimately during the normal process of things if loss and grieving occurs in a typical manner, a healthy person ultimately gives themselves closure in their head. No matter what they are told by the person who victimized them. So tell yourself now that the person you are involved with is sick. You didn't cause, you can't control it or change it and ultimately you are deserving of better than what you received from them.

I really wish I could truly believe what you are saying, but I just cannot. There is of course truth to what you are saying and I am sure it has helped you and many others.
But a lot of the therapy and approaches to dealing with a pwBPD seem to be extremely focussed on the ego. For example the notion of "we were in love with ourselves" or in this case something like "we can only obtain true closure (by) ourselves" etc. etc.

It just does not work for me. I understand the need to work on ourselves and our own well-being. But that does only bring me so far.

There was and is this other person. A person with her own qualities, who is in her own right worth caring for. To ignore this is to ignore who she was. That she even existed or mattered.

How I wish I could give you peace and convince you. They only matter because we give them that status in our heads. Once we let go of them, there's the wonderful state of indifference towards them... .they don't matter. They don't deserve a place in your mind sucking up your energy. YOU however, matter. Your emotional health matters. Therapy helped me with that. It started with dealing with the trauma head on and then regaining my self esteem which gave me strength and belief I could get past the things he did to me. Maybe therapy isn't for you. Maybe one day it will be for you. maybe you're not ready for it. I can't make that judgment and I won't judge you for it. but you can get past this and find closure.

Hi EdR,

I applaud your effort to sort this out, but I have to agree with mjssmom that true closure ultimately comes from you. It's nice to get them but many of us simply won't get such conversations/answers. Ask yourself, what are the words you need to hear from that person, what do you really want them to say? Can you perhaps write that out here? Then ask yourself, what are the odds they are ever gonna deliver on that?

I had a bf with BPD traits years ago... .he disappeared suddenly and I desperately tried to get those kind of conversations/answers/anything. I just got more hurt. It hurt to see him looking dead inside, it hurt that he went from telling me "he would never break up with me" to doing exactly that, out of the blue, a week later. I spent years bouncing this year or so relationship around in my head - it was so painful and I wanted answers. I wish I'd known about this site then, not sure it even existed back then... .but anyway... .

I got better because I met my own needs regarding closure he was never gonna give me and I moved on and dated someone else and created a new life... .and I made peace with this loss because I had to. I wish I could remember more of the good stuff, but I don't bother, and I don't bother with the bad stuff about how it ended either... .It was an interesting time and I choose not to have regrets, but ultimately, three years later I was finally able to admit I had dodged a bullet by not having this particular person be my life partner.

We try in the West to search for logic and reasons and facts... .sometimes life is just a lot of unknown stuff that defies logic... .and that is totally okay. Not knowing is okay. Moving on takes courage, but it is worth it.

Thank you both for your replies.

Thing is, I've dealt with multiple pwBPD. But in 2 cases I was really emotionally involved and that's when it went wrong (both times she split black after approx. 2-3 years). In all the other cases there was far more distance and hence still no problem at all. And the 'no problem' cases were actually the diagnosed ones... .

But in the first of those cases, there was no closure whatsoever. So indeed, I eventually gave myself 'closure'. But truth be told, that's a poor man's closure. There was simply no other way. Result: I am still actually kind of afraid of her. Does she still haunt my dreams? Absolutely not! I don't even think about her anymore. But when I see her, my heart still skips a beat. Not out of love, but out of terror.

I don't and didn't want it to be the same for my more recent pwBPD. That's what closure is about.

So what would I like her to tell me? Well... .nothing really. That would be one-sided. I just like to talk with her about our friendship. Two-way communication.
I'd like to talk about several examples, which she used to paint me black. Lies in most cases, or at least creative truths in other ones. I'd like to talk about how it hurts when someone you care about just suddenly turns 180 degrees. Splits.  I would like to do that in a non-defensive way. But not just the negative. I would also like to say how I valued her and our friendship. Of course, I would prefer an apology. But I could live without one. I just want a meaningful conversation.

I would just like to end it as grown-ups. Not in this absurd, childish way which seems to be the result of BPD traits.

EdR, I understand your need for closure. I had a dream last night where my ex introduced his new gf to the family, but in the dream I was his sister (?) and only slightly jealous of her, otherwise I found her charming and smart. Weird. I rarely have dreams involving him, fortunately.

In the midst of our break-up, when I was starting to implement NC and he was using every manipulation in the book to hook me to contact him again (really pulling my heart strings), my T told me something along the lines "maybe you should stay with him a bit longer, just to prove yourself how bad it can really get" (because our r/s was short and I left as soon as he started exhibiting emotionaly abusive behavior, and had talks with his best friend, ex gf and his mom- that convinced me that leaving was the best option). Even though I replied to my T "no, there's nothing to go back to. I saw him for what he really is", with time I started to wonder should I have stayed a bit longer indeed. I know he has diagnosed BPD/NPD, but in reality- I left him because one disregulation and knowledge he has PD. The idealized image of him still very much exists in my head. Maybe, equipped with that knowledge, I should have stayed longer:
1) to PROVE myself that the crisis will continue and that the idealisation was an exception, not the rule
2) to have a final talk with him to hear what he has to say and is he willing to give me any closure.

These are strange thoughts, I know. I don't know why they occupy my head even.

Zero closure.  She just said she needed "space", but was still seeing me nightly.  Told me she was at her moms.  Then one day I saw her with another man.  Night before she was swearing up and down no way is she dating. We are married etc.

Since that she moved in with him and is the new step mom for his kids. All within 3 days

Itgetsbetter, I don't think your thoughts are weird at all. I think it's just human.

Today I decided to send her a small text again after the relative success of my Merry Christmas text.
I wanted to see if low contact would be possible. Just to be able to eventually achieve a mindset without any fear for her or her replies/actions/ST.
I kept it very light, without any emotion. Not even a question. I just saw she read it, but didn't reply.

That's a shame... .not sure how I feel now. I am not devastated or anything. I am not beating myself up, I don't feel stupid for sending it. But I do feel it's a real shame... .Can't say I am happy about it.

The greatest closure I got was when I honestly was able to tell him what he had meant to me and what I'd felt for him. What he gave me in that was his presence and he listened. There was no return from him, nor did I need anything other than to be heard. I accepted that perhaps this was more of a one sided thing - given the limited kind of love that someone with BPD can actually experience - and I was ok with that. The closure came from myself. From that moment onwards I was able to really move on. It was about truly acknowledging my own feelings for him... .regardless of everything else that had happened. I validated the whole experience for myself with this simple action. It gave me so much closure and strength to walk away because if someone can just sit there and watch you tell them what they meant to you and the impact that they had on you and they have nothing to say in return except some insignificant and bland statement, and maybe a mention about the new fling while checking their phone... .you realize that the person does not hold the source of your happiness or your healing. The bluff was up. Only his emptiness stared back at me.

Yeah, I can imagine that would give you closure as well. It probably felt like a weight was lifted off your shoulders.
You were able to take the emotional bagage and leave it at his feet.

Was that also how it felt for you? Or am I way off in my interpretation?

Ouch, I saw that emptiness staring back at me in the last days of our r/s. It's not just a figure of speech, that emptiness is a very real, almost tangible thing. His eyes, once so loving and child-like, became dead and cold. The switch was instant and unbearable (for me). From hot to cold in a second.

I don't ever want to look at that abyss again. I remember crying, crying, crying, pouring my eyes and heart in front of him, and he just looked at me with that blank, psychopathic stare.

Thank you for reminding me of it. It makes my irrational urge to reach out go away. Brrrr.

The funny part, in a sad way is that they paint you black to all their friends meanwhile never mentioning any or the things that they did.  Especially if they are high functioning and a easy crier, their friends will all hate you and she gets all the sympathy.  What a wonderful world.

Yep, I thought that was extremely hurtful as well. And in hindsight it feels like her friends were and are even more convinced than she was/is.

@itgetsbetter: oh yeah, the emptiness is something I have seen as well. But to me it is something which make me feel sorry for her.

Like I said yesterday, I reached out again. But this time to no avail.
But somewhere deep down it still feels a little Star Warsy: like in Darth Vader, there also should still be some good in her. And after her Christmas reply I felt I was closer to seein that good side again.
Maybe that is why I reached out: to try and break through the layers and find that 'good side' again.

Hi EdR

I to struggled with a concept of closure and ending things on "good" terms.

During my one of my exgfs discard cycles I actually said to her in terms "If you don't want me then I understand that although it hurts but I'd like us to split up on good terms and be adults about it".

Two things happened after this: (1) the relationship recycled very quickly and (2) every other "discard" she put me through was entirely void of explanation. She would rage at me and then immediately block me so I couldn't contact her at all.

I am speculating but I suspect since she knew it was important to me her final powerplay to demonstrate she had power was to deny me that.

The last time we tried this I was totally done with the situation and simply went NC immediately in response to her Silent Treatment. When she tried to get back together I remained NC.

As such I didn't receive "closure" or leaving the relationship on anything approaching good terms. In her last email to me she admitted that she had BPD and other emotional problems and was in therapy to help the symptoms.

But I learned from others that know her that 3 months later she was not in any therapy at all and she had started a smear campaign and I started low-key stalking me.

What I am trying to say (perhaps in a roundabout way) is that I don't think pwBPD have the ability to end relationships on anything approaching good terms and I don't think they are keen or capable of "closure". I think finality scares them on a primitive level and they of course often want the option to return.

The closure you are seeking is only possible when there are two people who are reasonably balanced and have had an otherwise functional relationship and I don't believe that any BPD relationship (intimate or otherwise) has these ingredients.


This sounds like the equivalent of trying to find the idealization phase again (or it was in my case). I think pwBPD only do this when they have something to gain from doing so - they are in that sense amoral, "good" and "bad" only exist as ways of extracting what they need at that moment.

Maybe after years of therapy and a real desire to improve their relationships with people they can see "good" and "bad" in a non-disordered way and you would have the conversation you are seeking.

As others have said the best closure is the one you can give yourself. I don't agree that it is a poor man's closure as ultimately when you get it it reminds you that you are in control of your own life and your emotions.

The key is to move beyond having this person being the master of your fate as they will oftentimes do nothing but what suits them.

Oh no you are quite correct in your interpretation. Because not only did he simply have nothing of any significance to say to me, he even tried after that to drive the knife into a regret I had expressed to him. That's when I became more objective about the whole thing. I realized he had a sadistic side to him as well... .and it hurt, but after awhile I simply stopped wanting/expecting/hoping for anything from this person whose only ability is to drive a knife into me over and over again. And he only had that ability because I gave it to him. Now he's got nothing on me. I suppose he's moved on to digging that knife into someone else. All I know is it feels really nice to no longer be constantly stabbed whenever I present a vulnerable side of myself. I am free to further explore my vulnerability with those who can handle intimacy.

I'm with you on the ego part when it comes to therapy but there is some truth in letting go of what you can't comprehend. Its really up to you when it comes to moving on but thats it. After that its like you said, only goes so far.

The one thing that is tough to let go or just accept is not getting any closure. People with BPD can't be accountable for any of there actions because it exposes there shame/guilt/inner narrative that they want to hang on to. It's the only thing they can commit to because its the only thing that can protect them (in their minds). The self deception is beyond what they can handle on there own so the path of least resistance will always be the only option. You can't reason any sort of logic with them.

On the last part you mention, it seems like your having a hard time letting go. Its not bad to care but your the one doing your part of whatever relationship you two had. Is this person doing there part? Will they do there part at all? And IF they do, what benefit would they gain?

Hi Ragnarok,

You are absolutely right. She is NOT and will not be doing her part...

Just saw her. I was surprised by her behaviour. It set me back again and I hate that. Just made a new topic about it.

Btw... too bad not everyone is explaining their choice in the poll. I would really like to hear about that one vote for the 'happy about my closure' option... .

I remember when I was first dating my ex bf inwardly thinking "Boy he does talk about his exes a lot, and wow, they all cheated on him or did something terrible to him!"  At the time I felt sad for him, sad that someone so sweet and charming could have ended up with so many awful women.  However, at the same time I was also thinking "He's never admitted fault in any of these relationships... .weird."  And this didn't just apply to his romantic relationships - friends, family... .everyone had wronged him in some way, everything was someone else's fault.

When we finally ended our relationship, he placed the entire blame firmly upon my shoulders (despite cheating on me, hah).  That's unfortunately how a lot of these people operate, I suppose.  It's easier to blame the other party and move on with your life than it is to accept responsibility and deal with it.

I did not get closure. I DID get an earful from him about all of the awful things that had happened to him after we broke up, right down to the "idiot cop" who "wrongfully" pulled him over for a DUI and arrested him even though he "performed the field sobriety test perfectly."  Geez... .

I found my own closure when I finally realized that all those verbal promises she kept making and never following through on were NEVER going to happen and were just things she said to convince herself she was the wonderful person who did such things (only she never did them).

It could be as simple as her agreeing to clean up one of the messy rooms she had, yet time and time again she had no time to do it. "I might work from home, you don't seem to realize I'm busy and have no time for this."

Yet I worked out of the home and found the time to keep my stuff neat and straighten up some of her stuff.

Then I cut off all communication with her, because I realized she never reached out to me about anything that would be to my betterment. It was always about her and what I needed to to for her.

I think there's a lot of closure to be had when you see your BPD for what he or she truly is and projecting out the misery of spending a lifetime of being with someone like that. 

I like your replies.  They're grounded and sensible and they help me.  Thank you.  I often tell myself - "Yes, you may miss him, but god, imagine spending a lifetime on that rollercoaster.  He's stuck on that ride... .I'm not."

Glad to be of assistance, araneina.

Good luck working through all this. |iiii

Thanks!  It helps that both he and I have moved to completely different states.  I don't have any hope of reconciliation to cling to.

Well that should help you continue with the moving on process.

Mine moved just far enough to make a surprise visit to the kids she left behind every now and then... .whenever it is convenient for her.

 

I often found myself devastated when my relationships ended, and did not know why.  A wonderful boyfriend taught me about the right way to end a relationship. He broke up with me, and was endlessly supportive by staying in contact and talking about why it ended while being as kind as possible, as long as I needed to talk about it with him.

No closure of any kind and i am quiet content to not look for any. For years I banged my head against the wall trying to talk to her but it would turn into a talking in circles match. If I brought something up she would deny it and say I don't know what your talking about. Up until 3 years ago I never heard of a personality disorder so for many years my xw twisted my brains like a pretzel and me not knowing any better kept jumping into the lions den, trying to get her to just sit back and listen to what she was saying. Now a days I could give a sweet fiddlers f**k what she says.

I was one of the 2.5% that managed some sort of closure, if you can call it that.  Bear in mind we are talking about closing out a 25 year married life together.  It took 3.5 years after she left for the last time to get there.  It was sad to see someone I truly cherished raised children with, yet again for the 3rd time like clockwork each decade on a self destructive path with yet another new lover and again with each iteration truly more evil and destructive manipulative BF.  But let me just say, as she began to decent again into this place 4 years ago, like attracts like and by heavens she found a truly vicious character this time. 

Let me say that I now recognise it was not about me or about what I did, nor the kids, who she abandoned all 5, leaving the country.  It was about what she impulsively wanted at any time in her life and purely nothing else.  I deserve to be happy is what she said... .years later... .clearly I have now ruined it with all my kids, but still persists in this downward spiral.   It does not need to be sensible or even logical nor does it need to have any quality, it is whatever feeds that feverishly hungry selfish inner child that controls the whole turmoil working of her brain.  Her still child's mind can build an artificial mountain on a pinhead, or destroy a lifetimes work with a word.  It all comes down to being fed some lines and she telling her own distorted truths to suck in others. 

She is gullible enough to adopt the age old mindset of getting something for nothing I am afraid.  BPD SO run off feeling their easier path is just around the corner and with a new partner, it will wash all the problems away... .which makes no sense at all.  It is what it is, a cheap distraction away from their lack of proper mindfulness, the total lack of mental development missing in them but present in us, that allows us to own our problems and work through them.   This enigma of a person, will not give you peace unless you know how to push their buttons, which is what I too often found myself doing over a lifetime to get even a trace of happiness some days and to soothe down the latest WW3.  The balance of the time was just walking on eggshells.

I am out... .you know how good it feels?  Amazing. Literally like a 100kg burden, finally fallen off each of my shoulders.  Nos comes the divorce a torture but so worth it to get the necessary closure, not from their end but more so my own now.  I too miss the fantasy I built in my brain, that I realise now could never last or remain stable for long.  Oh what we will do for one last kind word, one last emotional thrill of saying I love you.   Then I realised it is just empty words to get their way and very hollow ones at that.  After all that is all that matters to them, their next fix also.  So I have concluded, after that who cares what they say.  They no longer matter, because, they just don't genuinely care.  It is like a boutique cake, everyting while being eaten by you and then nothing but a hole in your wallet thereafter.  You have realised you cannot live with this deeply damaged and with every lack of word, very damaging person.   

You finally kiss the masochistic side or oneself goodbye at last and move onto calmer waters.  You will never know, even in hearing as I did, what goes through that fruit loop mind, other than I, I, I  (want to be happy, damn the cost) and he or she could never be with you again, or something equally hurtful.  This the same person that you tenderly nursed their constantly bruised egos back to health from what other people subtly unknowingly said to hurt them, every week for decades.  You have to agree that your reality versus their heaven on the head of a pin, in their mind... .is incomparable. No one can compete with that pin head, but this time, you no longer (deep down) want to be around.  Suddenly you have legs and want to run away and be healed. 

As all my kids  and others have said, this is just one screwed up very toxic person and none of us can afford to tolerate abuse from further.   A tear for every day over 25 years, I have surely wept.  My last ones for the fine young man that I allowed to be abused for so long, even that same person now me.   No honour yourselves and wash your hands not of your gallant efforts that have died in vane, but for growing to be wiser, more loving, more kind, more generous, more humble, more understanding, and so now ready to leave hell and use your time to look for and find again heaven. 

For me I have my beautiful children and perhaps in time when healed sufficiently and divorce over and done, be ready again to find another SO to share my life.  For now I have rekindled old genuine pre-marrriage trusted, most certainly non romantic friendships, poisoned by a terrible wife over time and with loving decent people, learnt how to laugh again and be whole again.  Principled people who love genuinely and cherish friendship that make their life rich as it does ours.  Who's hearts are instantly looking to my children's best interests, my health interestingly too, though not sick in any way at present... .and my long term happiness.  Suddenly a greedy self centred destructive person, one realises is not what you need in your or your childrens life anymore.   That realisation is just wonderful.
It takes time to work through and get there, but oh how lovely and my life has never been so rich.  I am good with God having done all and now ready to let go.  I hope my words can help others heal as other souls have so spent time here in this electronic place to help me.
Regards Go.
 

Go,

Well done and well said. Thanks!

The leaving and coming back dynamic is one that I just now realized was a part of my marriage, only it was more emotional at first, then physical, then finally a geographic push-pull.

She left the house on Aug 1 and still comes by unannounced to see her kids and pets, then goes skipping back to her new place/life whatever that looks like.

It surely does boggle the mind.

Yet something you said also drew up a well of pain: "Then I realised it is just empty words to get their way and very hollow ones at that."

Looking back to when I believed, as she said, that I "was the answer to her prayers" and everything was good in the world, and now seeing that those were empty words backed up by shallow actions really hurts. It seemed so real at the time, felt so right and good. And now? Nothing.

J

Ed, sadly the only closure you will get is from yourself.

As several posters here have mentioned, your ex's disorder will not allow her to "drop the mask". This was ALL your fault and that's that.

Of course, you and I and most rational people in the world know that is not true, but this was not a normal, healthy relationship. This was a fully-loaded one, with a disordered, broken person.

You will never be able to rationalize with the irrational.

That is a fact.

What you can do is accept it happened, accept you are a good person worthy of love and happiness and work on you. You will never be able to change her or her opinions, if you try to contact her to do so, you will be painted a stalker in her eyes.

They just don't see things like we do.

Again, the best closure you will get is what you are able to give yourself. It take time and a lot of self-evaluation and work, but once you can get through it, her opinion of you won't matter anymore. Her opinion has no place in your current life and well-being.

Good luck on your journey!

PW

As one who got some sort of closure, let me tell you that it is not all that it is cracked up to be.  It asks more questions than you really need or should have answered.  It is hurtful in its stupidity, their cruel logic that defies common sense.   Your best efforts are literally mocked by their recognition, but the you in this process no matter how good or bad painted is always rejected and seems the net loser. That is heart rending.  You want to know so desperately the tipping point, what pushed the BPT away.  But, You have to understand they were already away in fact they were never truly there or your or with you, in the first place.   This conversation is a no win situation.  It is part of ones obsession for just another morsel of kindness thrown invariably like yet another brick to the head.

Stepping away even for us that say we have... .well we are still here on this page aren't we?... .both to give back as we see it, but also since deep down, we need the continuous mental affirmation that we are on the way out still... .or want to be... .kind of.   Perhaps you are more honest than we (deep down) knowing you are still in some strange way still connected and still want to be, despite all the pain it brings.  It is like a stain on a carpet that you see continuously while you are in that room, but just can't help yourself fussing over to try to make clean and right.  The more bleach you add the more off colour it becomes.   Seriously put a throw rug over it and in time pull the entire carpet out and have someone polish the boards underneath.  With that comes infinitely more and way better possibilities.  You don't need this level of high maintenance any longer... .leave it alone.  I have a refrigerator it has some serious dents in the stainless steel, from when my BPD wife had one of her tantrums, for once not on a human being or bloodying up my face.  It is a good reminder why after decades I never want to go back to that environment of lies, manipulations and flagrant use of half truths for just one person's greedy, self interested ends. 

If these people are trapped in a relationship with you, trust me, you will suffer tears like you cannot imagine.  Put this wild untamed creature in a cage it will scratch and bite you literally.  I suggest we all have a bit of Stockholm Syndrome.  We soon begin to relate to our captor and eventually pity, then try to nurture said person.  The truth is they are just a stain on our carpet that we can never make clean.  I recently made a list of what I personally deeply respect in a partner and would love to have at last (notice not again, because in this relationship, did not have anything of the type) should I be so blessed in the future.  These include things I will no longer live without in a partner.  That list alone gave me closure.  2/3rds of the characteristics near ALL people need in a relationship, were simply not there or if so were in very short supply, or their counterfeit offerings were just used to get what they wanted.  It was all one way traffic me putting in 200% and my BPD SO taking.  Honesty is terrible, cruel but kind.  This ex will not come back, in any form that resembles what you truly want or need.   For me, I have moved on, i was well on the way when she left.  People want what the can't have.  When they return you remember just how very terrible it was and no longer want it again.  Phew... .I can at last say that.  That's big step.  Put her back in my life, give it a few days, I will want her gone... .at any cost.   What a mind-screw... .but it is true.    The healthier I can make myself, the more I will attract to myself the right type of people in my life, firstly those who will help me heal and me they... .and then in time I will be ready to enter again more trusted friendships until that right person comes my way.   The sooner I get started the better.  I have given the same advise to a few now, and it works... .Now I must take the same again myself.  Seek not to find the right person, but to be the right person.  My son some years ago, was very under-performing in key sectors of his life, very miserable and caught in a cycle he couldn't seem to break out of for years.  Some of this was clearly as a consequence of his BPD Mother's damaging influence.  When she left and the dust had settled sufficiently, I sat down with him.  I explained we can do nothing about the past it has long since fled, but every today and tomorrow... .they are ours to make of as we please.   I then asked him this question.  When you look in the mirror a decade from now, who do you want to be looking back at you?   He paused, then said, well I would like to be looking at someone with at least a degree, perhaps a masters, and by then the makings of a good career.  And your relationships (which were non-existent for him at that point, he was very lonely)  He smiled, as he considered the future and what he would truly want in his life.   Well Yes Dad, naturally a lovely girlfriend maybe by then even my wife!   I then said to him.  The next 10 years of your life are going to be the most awesome.  If you allow it, these will forge the foundations for the rest of your life.  Well you know where you are now, you know where you want to be, so draw a straight line between those two points and place weigh points along it.  OK, so what is the 1st step... .today!  My promise holds to all the kids, that I am behind you 100% to be educated until you are 30 if needs be.  Well he did, Year 1 he picked up his missing subjects via a soft part time entry courses held at the university.  He just loved it.  Loved the subjects and lecturers.  The following year was full time study and soon entered the odd new GF,  but not quite what he was looking for.  By the end of his 2nd year he had met the most gorgeous loving highly intelligent person of his exact ilk.  He continues to grow and continues to become the person who he wants and deeply needs to become in order to be truly happy.  Now drawn to him are the best of the best, wonderful friends, the studious, kind, loving people, new, life long friendships in the making, and with success his prior damaged self image (as he prior watched all his school friends pass him by) now only long forgotten entirely.  He is on track and totally owning HIS future.  As he started this NEW journey, he made a conscious decision, and stuck to his guns, holding out to not lower his standards, but only determined upon dating what he considered were more likely, the right type of people.  When some proved not quite so, he stepped away and quickly, kindly saying goodbye and putting distance between them and he.  He put in the hard yards and the lesson is to all of us here... .it quickly pays off.   He is happy, deeply happy, mindful, confident and continues to grow and sense of humour never far away  He had his first argument with his lovely GF recently.  Oh, I said... .how did THAT go?  He said, well we vehemently disagreed on a subject.  However we sat down and discussed it in more analytical terms, as we both had strong cases, but we carefully listened to and respected each others opinions and in half an hour with us both having greater knowledge, we came to a very workable solution.  My eyes filled with tears of joy for my son, now growing so wise.  This was never a possibility with my BPD wife.  If we ever got there, it could take days, weeks or never.  For him and her, that is how a healthy relationship is meant to work, based on intelligence, the desire to garner increased knowledge, based on respect and genuine caring for the other person.  Yes neither is perfect, not by a long shot, but foundations of hard work, focus and not expecting something for nothing make very firm foundations in a healthy relationship.  There loves grows delay, built on ever deepening respect.  They both know what they want they respect each is determined to be well educated and in time successful.  In that they support each other with rigid determination.  They know that the sum of THEIR whole can be made greater by love and understanding, far greater than the individual parts (they left alone) and in isolation.  At times like exam or assignment times, they know that each must go it alone and they give the necessary space, so each can individually develop their own self image, but achieving success.  Wisdom can grow when intransigence is put aside.  It may be time for all of us to better chart our courses, noting some essential weigh points along the way, to keep you on track in the short term and in time, become ready for that person living even this second now, also putting in the same effort as you, to find there special somebody, worth all this effort.  Be willing to pay a price, for that very special somebody if that is what you really want and like my son, enjoy from the beginning to the end the process of finding joy and fulfillment again, is my prayer for all that might read my typically wordy replies.

Now for me I have to do the same.  I have to kick out and have faith again, let go of the patently substandard things in my life and put in hard yards towards now what I deeply want.  I have to be willing as was my son, to pay the price.  Say yes to the aquisition of knowledge and firm self image and yes to healthy relationships.  Am I already... .no I am here speaking, but in so doing perhaps helping not just myself but other to heal too.   You, I, many in this place can now at last forge onto these, our new baby steps.  With each positive step, needs to come some real efforts, some real permanent direction and focus toward being happier, healthier and in time not deeply lonely in a relationship that can never be truly whole, save in our own fantasy minds... .proven time and time again to always be crushed.   No... .time for a reality check, even dank as it might appear in the quiet evenings alone.  But it is not... .far from it.  It is the foundations of forging of deep and treasured resolve.  In time you will be able to see more clearly and the optimist and the realist will both find at last balance in your life and with it beautiful endless colourful new opportunities wait behind doors still closed to you until you see where you are,  see where you want to be in as little as few months from now.  Draw the line in between and mark out the weigh points and take the first nervous steps towards the first of these.   For me it was visiting old friends.  For others it might finding some new ones.  For me today it is tidying up my life and each day making very permanent steps to put distance between me and my old too often very sad life.   I am stepping out of hell and into the sun, for a walk, a swim, a smile and maybe, maybe just a bit of faking it until I make it.  When I a weary today, as online too much of the night, here... .but I am going to do something to end this horror and something to start anew.  (a smile comes on my face)  Yeah if we can take the hell we have, from being around a BPT and survive, we can take pretty much anything and now most certainly have the strength of character to turn around and begin riding ourselves away from this living hell.

I learnt years ago, that unless a goal is written is just a wish.
However a goal written down with both a time and date and rough outline of the step that day, moves it to the 91% success rate.
Isn't that awesome.  At 8am Sunday I am up and getting ready for church as I have for some weeks now.  I am pulling away, like a train from the station, slow at first but now with a bit more velocity and most importantly inertia.  Today at 3pm,  I am laying out my good clothes washing any that need to be and tidying up the house and with it my life and my kids life. There is still ample time for spontaneity, playing the piano, something I do for fun and many other things, like going bowling yesterday with the kids, but some require that I discipline myself to build anew lifelong good habits and that takes some effort and planning to achieve. I will tell you how I go in the weeks ahead.
Regards, Go

Don't you think its all about "saving face". The team that loses an important game and the coach doesn't want to talk about it.

I remember in the late conversations with my x, I realized that ending the relationship was closure for her. That is why she was ready to stop. It was easier for her to wipe the slate clean, even though she cared about me, than it was to go back and do what would be reasonable to fix things.

I had an interesting and telling experience earlier (as I reflect in hindsight)... .she had been emailing a man she met in a grocery store and I found out. At the time, she was crazy high on the relationship with me. It made no sense other than I was going on a five day trip. She was so stressed out by what she had done and being caught , she kept saying "do it" (meaning break up, I deserve it). She then fainted and fell to the concrete floor and we ended up in the emergency room at a local hospital. Did she actually faint? Did she fake faint to end the conversation? I'm not sure that it mattered, but it does show me how hard it was for her to face her own misdeed. As far as I know, it never went further than a few emails.

But, to be fair, if I did something really impulsive or bad in a relationship, I'm not sure I would want to talk about it at the breakup. Say I got drunk and lost it one night (I don't drink, just a example) and started breaking up furniture. I don't know that I would feel I need to explain it if I was now leaving. I've seen other members here, in this type of situation, make statements like "I had to break up because she was no good for me, it made me act crazy".

We of course want the closure. We want some explanation of what happened. Especially if we were good, conscientious partners. The person who messed up, just wants to get it behind them.

The closure I got from her was “I don’t owe you anything”.

The closure I got was coming home to a 1/2 packed box of her possessions on the island in the kitchen and telling her, "I assume you found a place to move to?"

I couldn't have been happier.

J

Hi EdR,


I understand what you are saying.  I believe I felt similarly for a long time.  I believed then, that I would have had more "closure" if my BPD loved one had outright died.  She did not.  I did not have a physical grave to visit.  I had this person who I believed was the love of my life, walking around the world, wholly disconnected from me, when once we were all but promised to be with each other for always.

I have some thoughts I might ask you to consider in the hope that it may help you let go. 

As adults, we don't expect each other to change drastically.  It's not like when we were children.  As children we had different ideas, behaviors, beliefs, maybe even different personalities to a degree.  And often some aspect of this earlier temperament might carry over into adulthood.  But we don't grieve so much over the loss of our childhood friendships (or selves), because we allow each other to grow and change.

For example, I don't think it would be healthy if a parent struggled with the reality that their teenage child is very different from the child they were attached to when he/she was a toddler.  In some ways this disappointment actually happens (looking at old photos), but parents accept that this alteration is part of the nature of kids growing up.  We don't allow for this kind of "flexibility" when it comes to our interpersonal relationships with other adults.  Mainly because we don't expect other adults to change so drastically or quickly.

But I would argue that this is exactly what people with BPD do, they change drastically and quickly.  And they do this mainly because of how this disorder has affected their emotional development.

The person you love "with her own qualities, who is in her own right worth caring for" is a very different person now, especially now that she is no longer connected to you.  Recognizing this is not to "ignore who she was."  It is not that she ceased to exist.  But when it comes to her personality and her attachment to you, she is now a different person.  And likely a person wholly disconnected from you. 

Accepting this helped me find closure.  I hope you find it as well.

Best wishes,

Schwing

Thank you Schwing. I guess you are right; in a way she truly seems to be a different person now... .
The thing to deal with here for me is that in a parent child relationship the bond, the connection might change but is never severed. With childhood friends it has always been somewhat similar for me: we grew apart, but the connection was never truly severed. When we happen to see eachother, we always have a small chat.
But in this case there seems to be some kind of forced and unnatural disconnection. That's kind of hard for me.

She tried to give me closure, but she wouldn't be honest with me about it at all, and every time I thought I might have gotten somewhere with why she left she would have a different reason.

If I confronted her about a feeling she had about our relationship she would say, "Oh, I was just feeling that in the moment."  Like for example, I asked, "So what was the main reason you left?" She said, "I felt trapped." (Which is beyond hypocritical.) I am a clingy type girlfriend, but she was the one who always needed me.  Sending me texts she was going to kill herself when I would be over at a friends house because she was worried about me cheating.  Anyway, later on a few days later I asked, "So why did you feel trapped?" And she goes, "What do you mean?" Like she had no recollection of telling me that earlier, and I said, "You told me a couple days ago you felt trapped in our relationship.  And she replied, "Oh, I guess I was just feeling it in that moment."

Just really confusing, but she would act like she was trying so it made me believe she had changed.  So I let it slide. I do believe to a certain extent she has due to therapy and what ever else she's up to, but still confusing. 

I still trust with all my gut that she cheated on me, but she always denied it.  So I don't know wether to trust my gut or not. 

Anyway, needless to say, the half hearted truths, and lies didn't lead us up to continuing to be friends no matter how much I wanted it.  I knew she would have just kept me on her leash.

Closure is not important to you.
Why?  Because if you say you need it, you actually don't want it.
What you do want is continued communication with your BPD ex.
Any communication, is better than the hell silence you presently face.
You have given them power over you and you alone can do that.
In requiring their input to closure, again you empower them.
You give them the right to hurt you if only in a few words.
Those words will eat you alive.  They will have you second guessing yourself.
You don't need any more hell.  Each communication brings a new bit of hell.

I had the opportunity the other day to forgive my BPD/wife of 25 years.
She ran off with another man leaving me with the a bunch of kids
as she had done before.  I said what I needed to say by email over not a few emails to typical monosyllabic replies as usual.  I finally came to terms with it all.
I made a note of the characteristics I would like to see in a wife
She had only 6 out 26 that I listed... .bad, bad choice as a wife clearly.
Worth saving... .No.  A do over would be a disaster of similar epic proportions, not that such was on the books anyhow.

I had just superimposed my core beliefs onto someone that rarely was able to display anything nearly as principled or cobble together for any length of time. 
With great difficulty I have forgiven her, also her new BF... .I kind of pity him, the hell he is going to face sooner or later.  Ms Crazy is going to blow a fuse sooner or later if not already cooking his brain cells already.

Working on my divorce papers.  Can't wait to be well clear of Dodge.
yeah we miss them, but be very careful as let me tell you, you have no idea how much hell you have been so lucky to have dodged.  The first 5 years might be rough, but trust me nothing on what comes later, once kids and life have you firmly invested.  You have no idea how tres wicked and bizarre it can get. 
Go dodge the bullet, trust me forgive, then run away as fast as you can from this presently ticking time bomb. 

Regards, Go

Go, your advice on this topic has given me a new perspective on wanting closure. I have practically been begging for it at times. You are exactly right in my own case. I felt like crap afterwards. No closure, just hurtful and abusive rhetoric. I’m glad I read your post.

My pwBPD/NPD and I have been separated for five months.  Earlier in 2017, we separated and he attempted suicide five days later. Got together again, he went for counselling/medication for a month, and then it all unravelled again several months after he quite counselling/medication. He was even more abusive and threatening suicide when he left. We had been together for 27 years total.

He's been bugging me for months about "my" inability to forgive and pursue reconciliation. The breakup was "my" fault. He even told his relatives that he has no clue what is up with me and doesn't understand why I won't love him as he is. He's said that I was never #1 on my list despite years of sacrificing for his needs and working to pay his medical bills and save so he could retire early. Several of the women on his side have contacted me that they suspect that things were very bad behind closed doors, so at least I have that.

Recently he finally rented a place many states away and told me that he will never live here. He's retired and can live anywhere, and actually has been threatening to move alone to where he is now for 15 years. All of my friends and my work are here. Our young adults are commuter college students and live with me. So there's my ultimatum and closure. Either I leave everything including our young adults (he can't stand them; they won't have anything to do with him), or we go to long-term separation or divorce. The therapist predicted this. She said he'd tell me to choose him or our young adults. I'm strong enough now to know what is best for me. I'm staying put. She also predicted that he will find someone else in 2018.

So a degree of closure for me. Not everyone gets that of course, and he may flip-flop on all of this down the road. He's thrown out tests like this before and used them to show what a wreck I am and how messed up my priorities are. He's continue to tell his relatives that all of this is my fault, and how rigid I am about not moving there to work on our marriage. My therapist here of course says that if I do that, he'll just discard me again, and then I'll be without a job and potentially distanced by our young adults.

Closure.  I have learned that closure for her was not the same as closure for me.  Closure for her was actions.  Moving out.  Filing for divorce. Totally changing her personality and carrying out a smear campaign that I haplessly played my role perfectly for her.  Closure for me was getting answers to questions I had about why.  Why did she turn on me?  Why did she spend 8 months preparing to leave and even go through with marriage knowing she was done?.  We lingered on in a strange bizarro world almost two years after we split.  Usually I would get the silent treatment when I tried to get closure.  I would get some answers through random conversations when she would disclose something to me.  I learned to not react with questions about what she said unless I was prepared to get the dreaded silent treatment.  We had one talk where she actually talkyd to me as her complete adult self.  I had not talked to her on this level in our 4 years together.  I was not allowed to or something.  It was then I had a sublime realization that gave me closure.  My ex-wife is highly gifted intelligence wise.  She has chosen to set limitations for herself in order to live as happy as she can.  She is at her core a perfectionist and has always wanted to just be an average person just like everyone else.  When I put her on a pedestal it went against everything she wanted.  And I had let my "commitment" and promises and loyalty lead to misery as the relationship could not keep its intensity at the level it began.  Closure for me was realizing I had decided to remain in the relationship when I should not have.  At least not as a romantic couple.  And realizing that I had freedom and so did she.  I let my happiness depend on her and she never signed up for that.  And I realized I did sign up for my part.  That does not mean I deserved the harsh times.  But I could have walked away at any time.  That is closure for me. We no longer communicate but if she were to reach out I would start in with the questions.  And then it would go silent again.  I am allowed to ask and she is allowed to not answer.  We regress to being children.  It is just how it is between us.