BPDFamily.com

Well, we got through the holidays.  Some wonderful help from visiting family helped to make it mediocre instead of abysmal.  I'll take half a loaf in this case.

I still have not made much progress in my healing.  I finally finished prepping for a meeting with a forensic psychologist to evaluate the path to unsupervised visits with D12 for my wife.  Had to spend a long time going through my journals, which was awful.  I was hoping to have the skies clear a bit, but my wife is totally wearing me out.  She wanted to add three more of her friends as supervisors for D12 visits.  Our kids went to school together, I know the husbands and we all see each other at parties, etc.  We could do it, but the cost is that we have to figure out what to say to them that is enough but not too much, and I have to sit and talk to three women in our tight circle of friends (bringing the total to five, the entire inner friend circle) and admit that my wife has been abusing me.  Pretty humiliating.  But possibly worth it.  So one of the things I spend time talking with my T and her T about today was what to say to new supervisors.  Then I get home and she texts me that she wants to go with 100% professional supervision, which is expensive.  We had agreed on half professional and half friends (her idea, to balance cost and convenience).  I just wasted all of that effort being stressed and working to figure out how to make what she wanted happen.  So exhausting.

I told my T I was having good days and bad days.  I am getting stuck in the car and the shower, where I don't feel OK getting out for a long while (prune hands in the shower, and sitting in the grocery store parking lot and in my driveway, feeling safe and warm in the car and just wanting to stay there for a long time).  Last night, I heard heavy bounding footsteps in the hallway late at night as I lied in bed.  I jolted and froze.  It was D17 who ironically bounds down the hall when she is happy, but when my wife strode heavily down the hallway with the same sound, it meant that she was going to be violent.  My therapist asked me what makes a good day and what makes a bad day.  Basically, it turns out that the less I interact with my wife, the happier I am.  So I need to figure out how to interact less with her, but we'll still need to communicate to handle kid stuff and finances.  So I still need to figure out how to field her requests for more friend supervisors, professional supervisors, doubling her rental expenses so she has a nicer place, etc. without going bonkers.  Oy vey.  Tomorrow I think I'm going to find an aquarium store and just look at the little fishies for fun

The basic idea is that I'm going to try to have set times to text with my wife, and have no contact for large blocks of time.  She has been decent about boundaries lately if I define them.  And I'll try to move more communications to e-mail instead of text.  When she texts me something that hits me as triggering or unreasonable, I'm going to give a noncommittal answer and wait a while, possibly a pretty long while, to get in plenty of time not thinking about it and enough time thinking about it.  The other guidance my therapist had was to fill my time with positive activities to help enforce the boundaries -- i.e. the positive approach that I'm busy on something good, with the side effect that I have blocks of time where I'm not able to communicate with my wife, rather than taking the negative approach of focusing on the fact that I'm not communicating as my goal, and possibly stumbling into something good to do.  Sounds like a good plan to me.

Otherwise, things are a mixed bag.  The positive impact of the DBT skills has definitely been evident in my text communications with my wife, which is great.  She is validating sometimes, and much better on boundaries.  She is enthusiastic about DBT and is using the tools.  I'm seeing improvements like I've never seen.  So that is great.  But there are still meltdowns (thankfully not aggressive ones) and she is still close to square one on accountability.  Time will tell.  The immediate task is to create better conditions for my own healing.

RC *)

Do you think most know by now?


She wasn't the one bounding down the hall.

This has been a long grueling process and once you made up your mind, just about every chip has fallen your way. This could have been much more problematic. I know you feel down and your emotions are grinding, but maybe you should take a victory lap. Celebrate how well this has gone.

You are triggering. That is understandable. Very understandable. The solution is dealing with why you trigger, not removing the hallway in your house so your daughter can't bound. This part is in your head.

Have you considered CBT?

I'm glad you made it through the holidays. Those times can be rough.


That is okay. Try to not focus on that but instead of how much progress you have made. I feel you have come a long way already just from what I read in your posts. Sometimes I like to think of the healing process similar to the cha-cha: you take a few steps forward, a few steps back, a few steps forward... the idea is that you don't give up on your healing journey and you keep going. I've been in trauma therapy for almost three years now and I'm still healing. Some days I feel I "slide back". It's okay and part of the process. You've been through a lot and things will continue to trigger you. It's going to happen. It still happens to me and I try to work through it with my therapist.  My latest triggers have been really big "doozies" and can last for a couple of days and mostly why I disappear from this site for periods of time. It sucks but I know I need to work through them at my own pace with my therapist. I completely agree with Skip too.

I so understand this. I used to do this too when I was still married. I would sit in my car after work for a long time enjoying the peace and quiet. I used to stand in the shower for long periods of time too. I also would sit in the bathroom after my shower in the morning trying to get the courage to open that door, knowing that when I opened that door, he may want to "talk" about something which almost always lead to him ranting at me about something.

I'm actually really glad to hear that. It's important to find something to do for fun, no matter how "small" it may seem. I used to call into work sick once in a while and would then spend the entire day at a library just reading and relaxing. I would also find a park that I could go to and just "be" outside. It was very refreshing at times. I needed that time away from him. I needed to find a safe place just for me. It helped a lot. I think it's very important to do something fun for yourself. :)

Have you thought about trying a website like Talking Parents for communicating with her about the kids? I like that once you enter a message, you cannot delete it or edit it. It can be admissible in court if you end up going down that route. At the least, I think it's a good way to keep track of who said what about what. It also keeps track of whether or not the messages have been read. My ex blatantly refuses to read many of my messages about the kids and it's documented there just in case. Have you tried to pick a specific day or time of day to read her messages? To not read them immediately and give yourself a break from her, if you're not already doing this?

I think you have a lot to deal with and you're doing really well even if it may not feel like it at times.

I'm sorry that you are feeling down about the progress you've made. I'd like to reiterate what I_Am_The_Fire said. The progress may not be what you expected it to be, but it's still progress. Look back at where you were 6 months ago to now. There's real progress.

It sounds like you might be experiencing a type of PTSD, which makes sense after the years of trauma, abuse, triggers, and worry that abuse was coming. If those symptoms don't begin to fade over time, your T may be able to refer you to someone that does EMDR. It always surprises me how quickly anxiety can enter just by smelling or hearing something. I used to work for a company where I was on call 24/7. I eventually left the job because it began to encroach on my time and I felt my stress level maxing out. It's been 3 years since I worked there but recently I was in public and someone had the same ring tone I used when I worked there. Their phone went off and I immediately felt my heart rate and breathing increase, my stress level went up, and anxiety just took over. All that over a sound that triggered a past emotion.

Going to watch fish sounds extremely relaxing.

What are your fears about telling friends?

Do you think she is changing her mind on supervisors as a means to control the situation?


 

Thanks, Skip, I_Am_the_Fire, and Tattered Heart!

I suspect not.  Before this, we probably would have been voted least likely to have trouble by our friends.  The two friends we told were totally surprised, and probably haven't talked.  It's a solvable problem.  The thing that has me the most worn out is her poor communications, seeming reversals of her position, and sense of urgency, as well as random contacts throughout the day.  I am hopeful that I can get a ton of relief by containing communications to set times, only texting when we have a block of time committed to closing the loop with each other and not sending half thoughts, and perhaps moving more communications to e-mail where people need to compose their thoughts more fully and tell a coherent story, without the expectation of an immediate reply.

I'm confused.  It wasn't the therapist or my wife bounding down the hall

I was reflecting on this today.  So many friends here are in tight binds with limited options.  I'm overwhelmed by emotions about the relationship and the fact that I don't have time and focus to heal, but Thursday's therapy session gave me a good action plan, so it feels like a solvable problem.  Yes, I think it is my task to contain the communications with my wife so I have time for that victory lap.  I have been very fortunate in so many ways.

Ha!  Yes, I actually like it when she bounds, when I know it's her.  It's nice to have such an overt sign she's happy.  The triggering in such a vulnerable position of being near sleep was a new and unsettling thing.  Thankfully, she doesn't bound that much   My therapist is an EMDR practitioner, so we'll add that to the list.  EMDR is one of the things we'll start once I can get a handle on communications and drama with my wife.

Not yet.  I should learn more about it.  We'll start with EMDR.  Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look into it.


I_Am_The_Fire, thanks for the validation and encouragement!

There is another similar site, but things were collaborative enough between us, it didn't seem worth the effort to set it up.  Lower-tech solutions, like setting up an e-mail address only my wife uses, and committing to give her a response or an acknowledgement within 24 hours or something like that may do the trick and help me wall off private space.  And yes, with the texting I think we need to go to 2-3 set appointments per week.  It will work better for both of us, I think.

Thanks, TH!

You nailed it.  EMDR is on the horizon.

Yes, I agree!  I used to work on a fire department ambulance and the couple of times I heard the same tone as our pager used it took quite a while for my heart to calm down.  If I heard those same tones drop now, almost exactly 20 years since my last ambulance run, I'm sure I'd react the exact same way!

Yeah, I'm having a hard time gauging this situation.  The second supervisor we added, a close friend, was told by my wife that my wife had said some awful things and there was a restraining order.  My wife was perfectly happy to leave the impression that I'd gotten a restraining order on her because of unkind words.  I am scared that our entire community of friends will be led to believe that I'm using legal abuse against my wife, isolating me from friends we've shared for 15 years and live in the same neighborhood with.  I don't believe my wife would go on an active distortion campaign, but she has proven masterful at self-serving half truths, and unable to factor in my needs in a situation like this.  I am looking out for her, and she is not looking out for me.

Reasonable question, but no I don't think so.  I think she is just emotional, communicating poorly, incapable of putting herself in my shoes, and is changing her mind because she's not fully analyzing the situation before acting.

Thanks for the support everyone, I really appreciate it.  I'm hoping that with communications containment, as well as identifying topics to discuss and prioritizing them appropriately (not every one is urgent), there should be real improvement in the next couple of weeks.

The next frontier is going to be figuring out if my wife gets unsupervised visits with D12.  I'm meeting with the forensic psychologist on Tuesday.  We will see what he says.

RC

I agree limiting time periods for contact is good. otherwise your issues with her take up too much of the stage, making it harder for other aspects of your life to thrive stress free. pwBPD are very good at hogging centre stage. Reality is though we are the stage managers of our lives.

Progress is as much about filling our lives with "other stuff" as it is about containing existing issues.

Hi Radcliff.
You’ve been so helpful to me in my struggles and I want to return the favor. I’m not sure this will help but here goes... .
It occurs to me that maybe those times that you’re stuck in the grocery store parking lot, in the driveway, or in the shower are in fact healing times. The solitude, the quiet, the hum of the car or the spray of the water. These things are the little things in life. The things that she can’t take away from you. The moments of peace when there is no thought about all of the therapists you have to talk to and how to word a text and making sure your girls are happy (and bounding) and healthy. These little moments that we steal for ourselves because just right then we can’t move forward, we can’t be more than we are in that moment, these are maybe the moments that heal us.
I say this because I just returned home from the grocery store and I was stuck in the parking lot both before I went into the store and after I came out. But I feel a little better than I did before I left home. So maybe those moments are the moments that we need.
Also I wanted to reciprocate to you something you said to me:
YOU ARE A ROCKSTAR.
You’ve got this.
5

Radcliff!
Sounds like you are feeling a little exhausted and burned out. Who wouldn't after what you have been dealing with. I just want to echo what has already been said... .you have made so much progress, so much personal growth. We all get frustrated that it's not a faster process.  
I hope you enjoyed the fish.  And the next time you are sitting in the care or stalling in the shower pause and choose to enjoy the moment of peace. And know that so many of us look forward to and plan those peaceful moments. You definitely deserve them.
You have got this... .and are an inspiration to all of us nons.
Lakebreeze

5xFive and Lakebreeze, wow, you have no idea how much impact your words had.  Thank you.  Thank you.  5xFive, your advice to look at the car and shower as good things totally worked today.  Brilliant!  Lakebreeze, the fish were great yesterday!

Yesterday we had a couple of one hour text sessions that failed, trying unsuccessfully to figure out some things about supervisors for D12 visits and a couple of other things.  We couldn't get past the basics of listening to each other.  It as all outbound from her.  I sent my wife an e-mail last night saying that I was going no contact for a couple of days.  I was nervous about a potential backlash and worried that my pushback would send her into a spiral but her reply today was totally short, focused, and responsive to my questions about times she can talk later in the week.  So either she completely pulled it together, or her DBT therapist gave her some phone support and helped her.  Either case is good.

We have had many text crashes.  She wants to be as communicative with me as possible, but I feel like every text crash is harmful and hurts our chances of things working out.  I'm going to mull over how we might lean on e-mail more and text less for a while.  

One thing that is interesting is how boundaries are applying stress and potentially may force some growth.  When I was infinitely patient, and willing to text for 4-5 hours (this is totally embarrassing to admit), we could eventually power through most things.  But it was killing me and was unsustainable.  With a one hour time limit, I watch her chew up the time unproductively as I try to re-center us.  And then we get to the end, and she hasn't gotten what she wanted (a new supervisor added, visit scheduled, etc.).  It's upsetting to experience the fails, but I'm seeing how the marathon sessions were unhealthy, and how we have to get through this if we are to have a healthy relationship.

RC

Hey RC, It seems as though you've made some solid progress even if you have had some rough days.  I will echo 5xfive on the little moments.  I realize for the last few years I find myself every morning sitting in the garage after dropping D16 off at school, car off, quiet for at least 5 maybe 10 minutes.  Sometimes I read emails, sometimes I check sports scores, sometimes I just sit there in the quiet.  Same for the shower or bathroom time.  She's pretty good about not invading those lately.  I steal the time for me.

Sending you good vibes on keeping up the hard work.  I was happy to read about your daughter bounding around the house.  Happy kids are always a positive sign!

celebrate6

-Oz

Something happened yesterday with D17 that has really thrown me, and something less severe but similar just happened.  We were in the kitchen together yesterday, just after she got home from school.  She asked me to call a tutor to schedule another lesson.  As I was dialing, I asked her, "Hey, did you have your chemistry test yet?"  I wanted to know if she was still under stress about it and if there was anything I could do for her, or if I could congratulate her on getting through another chemistry test.  [Background - my wife and D17 had established a rule that I'm not allowed to ask her about anything, essentially.]  She began shrieking at me loudly and forcefully.  I mean loud, so loud it hurt my ears, four feet away from me.  In a very soft voice, I said, "Whoa, that's out of bounds, you will not scream at me like that."  She raised the volume, leaning in and using verbal force to intimidate, saying, "I will scream at you wherever and whenever I please."  This continued a couple of times, me soft but firm, her loud.  I quietly stood in the kitchen and she stormed off.  I then heard her speaking in perfectly happy tones to D19, five minutes afterward.  She seems totally in control of her emotions.   She does not always behave this way.  Sometimes she is delightful.  But I think we have a serious problem with her that could become catastrophic in a romantic relationship, and my wife and I would need to work together to do what we can to make it better.

If my wife had been standing in the kitchen when that happened in the past, she would have come down on me hard in front of D17 after I told D17 she was out of bounds.  She would have yelled at me I was an idiot for causing a confrontation with D17, often using that exact word or something similar.  She would have loudly faulted me for being insensitive enough to ask D17 about a test, and faulted me for standing up to her.  My wife might have said that I was being abusive and intimidating.  Seriously, I am not exaggerating.  I remember these situations with clarity.  This destroys my ability to set boundaries with D17 and to be an effective parent to her.  I am furious with my wife for modeling abuse.

My wife has taught me a lot about timing.  I'm not going to knock on D17's door and ask her about tests, and I'm not going to ask her about tests every day.  I will not ask her about tests when she appears grumpy.  My wife has helped me to up my game on things like that.  But if we are quietly in the kitchen together, D17 is eating fresh berries, I'm in the middle of doing her a favor, and she appears to be in a pleasant mood, I may ask her if she's had that test yet.  I don't want to feel like I should have checked her test schedule online and not asked.  She's 17 and I have other responsibilities and don't feel like I should have to memorize her test schedule.  It's important for us to be able to talk, and it's important for her to be able to engage in reasonable conversation without verbal violence.

This evening when something similar happened, I said something lame like, "That is totally lame," and walked away.  I was so, so angry and upset.  Alone in the garage, I let my anger loose on some inanimate objects.  Luckily, neither I or the objects were harmed, but this is a clear red flag that I'm overwhelmed, and it's not OK with me to do that with girls in the house (or really anytime) and I don't want to be the idiot in the ER with broken knuckles.  Not normally a problem for me -- in college I was the guy they called to patch up the guys who put their fists through windows.  But today was difficult.  I saw my wife's abusive mentality coming through in my daughter.  I felt demeaned and powerless.  And this was not a false trigger like D17 skipping down the hall.  This was the real deal.  I am a 49 year old man with tears in his eyes because he got yelled at by a 17 year old.  If she was 12, I'd have time to work it, but she's 8 months from launch, and I'm worried it's too late.

I feel utterly without tools or leverage or a direction on this one.  I can't think of any relevant consequences.  A Ward Cleaver talk won't do it.  I've got nothing.

RC

It is so painful to read this and imagine this. I can't even imagine speaking this way to a parent and being so casual about it. I know that must hurt beyond belief, and you have only a little time left with her at home to try what you can to counter the bad modeling she saw before "the launch", but in time that will be hers to own and make better or not make better for herself. Parents can guide, but there is no control over the outcome. Honestly, I am more worried about you and being attacked from all sides. So the D12 disrespects you at times, dismisses the abuse, and the D17 is actually copying it, what about the D19, her too?

Never forget, never forget, you are guiding this family in the right direction in life, they will join you or not join you on that path, but keep on the path, keep going forward, it is the only way. Sometimes in life we can only "save" ourselves. At least "save" you RC. You deserve the best in this life!

more when I can... .pearlsw. 

Thanks, pearlsw.

D19 made a statement the other day about my "silly supervisor rules."  I sat down with her after that and had a more candid talk with her than I have with the younger kids.  That might have helped, I am not sure.  She is the mellowest of our three girls, and generally a benign and helpful presence.

For D12, I still have a lot of contact time with her, and am essentially her main parent right now.  Today when I was giving her a ride, and was myself quiet and introspective, she volunteered details about her day and asked me about my day.  This seems unusually nice to me -- I didn't see this in the older two.  I've decided I need to put the bulk of my energy into positive things with her -- spending time with her, talking to her, being present for her, etc., rather than mitigating threats.  I feel like I have leverage and time.

RC

Radcliff,
I can only imagine that being screamed at by your child, so much like her mother, was terrifying. My emotions would be all jumbled about. It’s no wonder you needed s few minutes alone in the garage. I am so sorry. I know how I feel when s7 acts just like his dad. But like you said, the launch is ever closer and that puts a sense of urgency on the situation.
I understand that your wife and daughter set the rule that you’re not allowed to ask her about anything. Is this a rule that has been set since the change in dynamic in your family? Since the supervised visits and the thereapy? I ask because I’m wondering if this is an opportunity to reevaluate that rule... .Being the main parent, and the only parent in the house at this time, it seems like you should be able to ask your 17yo anything school related at least.
I think it’s great that you were able to talk candidly with D19 and that you’re still able to grow s health relationship with D12. You are an amazing Dad. Those girls are lucky to have you worrying about them and protecting them.

Hi, I'm back... .if you don't mind can I probe a bit deeper on this... .What the $%&^ kind of rule is that that you can't ask your kids "about anything"? I mean really?

I'm gonna try to dial down my knee-jerk offense here and inquire politely... .How did this rule come about and why? Does your wife get to have this "privilege" of asking the kids stuff, but you got banned from it? Is it about controlling you and keeping you in "your place"? What gives here, man? Um, because that doesn't sound "normal" or fair to me. 

Do you think this outburst was triggered as a defensive reaction driven by insecurities, or do you thing it is an arrogant power play to belittle you? That is, is it more in the fashion of a borderline action or a narcissistic action?

I could just feel your sadness as I read this. You are finally getting things under control with your W and now your daughter is beginning to act out.

I don't remember... .is D17 in counseling too? Do you think she is blaming you for her mom being out of the house and this is her reaction or as waverider said could it be a narcissistic or borderline reaction? Has she ever shown any other symptoms of BPD/NPD in the past?

I know it's difficult realizing that your daughter witnessed abuse throughout her life and seeing how it can/may/will affect her future relationships. Please don't beat yourself up about this. You can't change what happened. You can only begin to move forward and show your daughter that you are taking steps to correct the mistakes made in the past. You also have a lot of great new tools and a support system in your bag now too. The same communication skills that help with your W will also help with you daughter. (And don't forget we do have the  Son or Daughter Suffering BPD  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=4.0) board that can help you more in the parenting aspect.

Hi Radcliff,
I think you know better than me how long and hard the road can be, but even tiny steps are still steps in the right direction, so please give yourself more credit.
 
You're doing a tremendous amount for all of those around you and I wonder if you need to make your healing a higher priority, setting aside specific times for that could help.

The incident with your daughter sounds like it was very traumatic, others have already given you some great advice, all I can add is that from my perspective, you are doing an incredible job looking after all of those around you.

LeChuck

Hey RC,
I just wanted to say that as a parent, reading about the incident with your daughter was heart breaking. It's so sad to feel like you have put every once into your kids and to get that kind of treatment in return.
Please remember that ultimately you can only control you ... .Dosent matter if its in response to a BPD spouse or your own child. You should be pleased with yourself for keeping your cool, not saying anything you regret... .you gave your daughter a wonderful example of how to conduct yourself under fire. It's just sad the fire was coming from her like that.
Take care
Lakebreeze

Hello all,

Thanks, pearlsw, Tattered Heart, waverider, 5xFive, LeChuck, and Lakebreeze!  I really appreciate both the encouragement and ideas.  I was shaken by that incident but your advice and support has helped me get in a better frame of mind to get back to the business of parenting.

D17 is actually not a simple story.  She is our most independent child (which cuts both ways) and she actually rose to my defense not infrequently when my wife would be verbally abusing me.  A few months ago, my wife hid my car keys.  D17 found them, re-hid them, and told me where they were.  Since the restraining order, which has come at a stressful time in her own life when it would have been better for home life to be calm, she has withdrawn a bit more and is just pissed at both my wife and I.

D17 has been emotionally reactive since she was a toddler, and combined with having a mother who can be invalidating (my wife alternates from being a world class mom to being an invalidator) I am worried about the potential for development of BPD.  But D17 is being supportive of D12 in this tough situation and is regularly supportive and a mentor to her friends, so she can do empathy.

So most likely I'm thinking D17 is a highly independent emotionally reactive teenager who can be both self-centered and selectively empathetic.  Carrying all of these traits more than the average teenager I think.  That selective empathy thing concerns me, since my wife very selectively targeted me, and I don't want D17 to target her partner.

Bottom line, I think we have a somewhat difficult kid who learned some bad behaviors from Mom -- that it is OK to threaten and bully to get your way.  D17 might have developed the bad behavior on her own, but if we'd been parenting together we could have nipped it in the bud.

My therapist gave me some assigned reading for this issue with D17:  "Raising the Difficult Child, The Nurtured Heart Approach," by Richard Glasser, suggesting that I focus on the first half of the book for our particular case.  So I will get cracking on my homework.  At some point, I'm going to add up all the books I've read on this adventure.  I also should put them aside every so often and read some fiction!

RC

RC,

First off, I want to point out what a "big brother / sponsor" you have been to me on this site. It is much appreciated. Please know that your help has been crucial on my journey.

I am sorry to hear that you are going through these times. Don’t beat yourself up too much about losing your cool in the garage. There have been times when I have absolutely lost it after being pounded on emotionally (or physically) by my wife for days and days. I’ve snapped at my kids as a result. That doesn’t make it acceptable. However, I am glad that you are examining your own behavior.

I am ten years younger than you. My daughters are 5 and 2. Like you, I have been very concerned by some of the behavior I have witnessed from my daughters. My five-year-old screams about everything. She has picked up most of this from her mother. She even uses some of the same phrases. You picked up on an interesting point that also concerns me. I feel that my job as a father is preparing my daughters for future success in life (including romantic relationships). There was a section in the Eggshells book with advice related to children of BPs. It stressed the importance of getting those children around others where they can see more healthy relationships. You are blessed in that you have so many good friends you can lean on. Unfortunately, my wife does not have any friends. She is uncomfortable and awkward in groups or around other people. When we do those things, she often makes an excuse not to attend or to leave extremely early.

My extended family takes a trip to the beach every year. My wife has been adamant in the past that she is not going. Well, it would be extremely good for my kids to go. There will be cousins and second-cousins their age. Those types of relationships are so important. My kids cannot be isolated any longer. So, I am going to have to let my wife know that I intend to take the kids to spend time with their cousins.

I know you are doing the right thing by continuing to remain steady in front of your daughters during this time. Recently, I was talking to a friend from high school. Her mother died right before I knew her. She was horrible to her father and ran away when we were in high school. She ended up sleeping in her car near the woods. But, now that she is older, she can recognize her poor behavior. She also recognizes that her father was doing the best he could during a terrible situation. She has reconciled with her father and has a close relationship with him now. There is hope so long as you remain steadfast.

I went through this with D16 over the summer when things were really melting down.  When we had a "talk" about me moving to my parents place for a few weeks she got very upset and angry at both of us.  Fast forward a bit and I find out the reasons were very different.  She was angry at her mother for being so nasty, and nitpicking, she was angry at me for feeling like I was leaving her to fend for herself against her mother.

Things are a bit calmer and D16 now knows that I am trying, and is squarely on my side in regards to noticing that her mother is not making any efforts on her own to take any accountability in the dynamics of the relationships.  This is both bad and good when dealing with the swinging teenager emotions.  Good in that I can talk to her some times and have taught her some of the "tools", bad at other times because she is clearly fed up with it.  I'm wondering if D17 could be hitting some of her own "BS" limits and the only way she's learned to deal with them has been watching how her mother handles it.  Keep moving forward and taking the high road, the payoff with your daughters may not be seen for years but it will be there.

And I've been there... in the garage, mad.  Really fn stinking mad.  I'm glad you are mindful of it.  Let it happen, just keep it in the garage!

Still rooting for you,
-Oz

ozmatoz and walkinthepark24, thanks very much for your support!

I'm finding that keeping some space between me and my wife and getting better at not getting sucked into her drama is helping me preserve energy for healing myself and for positive parenting.  It's a work in progress.  I jump in to help her on things where I should let her deal with it herself, I feel bad about how she'll feel, etc.  There is only so much energy and time.  On days when I'm able to not think much about supervisor logistics, evaluators, the future of our marriage, etc., I am more productive at things like getting new tires for the cars, buying food and planning activities with the girls, etc.  If I am depressed and nonfunctional, D17 ignores me and D12 starts trying to take care of me.  So I'm liking the results of claiming more space for now.  I'll have a good run of 2 days or so, then get knocked back.  Hopefully the intervals will get longer.

One thing that was really sucking my energy and giving me stress was figuring out whether to do a professional supervisor one day a week or two, and how many friends to involve as supervisors.  There were so many factors -- money, my wife's emotions, my emotions, scheduling, etc.  I was searching for a way to simplify and detach.  So I decided to ask D12 how she felt.  Problem solved.  She wanted a professional supervisor only once a week, preferring to have my wife's friends do it.  It made me more confident in pushing back about two professional visits a week, and made me feel more comfortable accepting the necessity of letting more friends know the embarrassing truth.  Kind of sounds obvious, that when we figure out what the kids want it makes it easier for my wife and I to figure out what to do, but we're new at this!

Thanks again for all of the support, it helps keep me even-keeled and as effective as possible.

RC