BPDFamily.com

Hi all,

I'm looking for some advice around how to deal with the glacial pace divorce process I am currently experiencing. Firstly, for those who don't know I do not want a divorce and do not think it's in the best interests of any member of our family. We have had 2x legal mediation sessions, first session early Oct17 her agenda was to get me out the house, I contested her reasoning and it was apparent it was poorly thought out and she hadn't thought about the practicalities so I refused and we set about agreeing rules of engagement. We agreed to put the house on the market mid Nov17. Second session early Nov17 she agreed after discussion that Mid Nov17 was not an ideal time to sell the house but she drew up wording for Decree Nisi and was told to make the application. I confirmed I would not contest based on not wanting to delay, impede or waste unnecessary amounts of money on legal fees (she can do what she wants to do)... .but made it clear that I did not agree with her reasoning and accusations of extensive emotional and verbal abuse over our 17yr marriage. We agree to market the family home in Jan/Feb18 once I had completed some repair work to the house.

Early Dec17 she finds a house she likes (first one she had seen) and decides that she wants to change the agreed plan to market house in mid Dec17. I validated but said no, this is not what we have agreed. She follows up the following day with a formal letter stating that she wanted to tell the children on Sat 6th Jan and put the house on the market the week after i.e. this week. The rest of the email was accusations of breach of agreement, more accusations of abuse and general ranting. I completely ignored the email and did not respond to it.

Sat 6th Jan... .she went to the horse races with friends for the day... .

Periodically over the holidays she has asked how I'm getting on with financial statements we need to do. She has made a rough start at her own but I think she wants me to rescue her on that by picking it up and running with the whole thing. I am reluctant to assist her here, this is her choice and she needs to do the heavy lifting. I am making progress as agreed on the house repairs.

Last night she asks to sit down to discuss kids and the house again stating that "we can't continue on like this forever". I validated and said that I agreed that we can't continue on with "this" forever and that's not what I wanted, and that a divorce was never something I wanted and I wanted to sort the relationship out. I stopped short of stating it was something she wanted as thought that was blaming.

Issues:
- I fear asking what she is doing with regards to the decree nisi. I have not received notification that she has applied for it, nor has she informed me that she has. I see this as key commitment to the divorce and long term separation rather than an emotional reaction. I'm reluctant to market the house unless I have seen evidence this has been applied for. If I ask might that be an incentive for her to action.
- Her commitment to the process is questionable and chaotic, she makes statements and send aggressive emails and then ditches them in preference to going to the horse races.
- She has not done anything with respects to organising the house for sale, there is painting and decorating she is perfectly capable of doing yet she has not. In my experience, when she wants something to happen she is proactive, when she doesn't she procrastinates or is passive aggressive.
- There is evidence of her questioning her decision.
- Since I am no longer a reactive Non her behaviour is becoming more and more and more obvious. I am no longer rescuing either which is highlighting her chaotic behaviour with the kids and other situations she creates.
- Sounds odd but she still acts/behaves as though I am in the picture long term e.g. photo calendar for her parents and sister, she includes pictures of me throughout the calendar even on her parents and sisters version... .now why would her parents and sister want pictures of me on their kitchen wall throughout the year... .the person who apparently abused their daughter/sister for 17yrs? She keeps talking about medium term plans for the house, kids bedroom, holidays, wanting a dog. She does nothing to manage the kids expectations even though they have not been informed about the divorce or likelihood they will be moving from the family home.

At what point do I stop dancing and pull the BS card on the divorce threats? I am happy to play along, validate where I can whilst she is seeing a therapist (not BPD specialist or DBT, but there's hope whilst she's seeing her, the T manages to open her up to reveal childhood wounds). I'm stuck trying to work out what the most likely outcome is from saying "I love you, I don't want this divorce and I'm questioning your conviction in the decision to divorce. This is a serious decision which has huge long term ramifications. Although you verbalise your intent I do not see them in your actions in a consistent convicted manner taking personal responsibility to achieve it." Do I just start by questioning why we did not sit down with the girls last weekend as she had stipulated?

Any advice is helpful. thanks

Does she have an attorney?

Legal mediation is where you both sit down with the same lawyer and try and iron things out amicably. There's a set structure and you work through each bit and come to a compromise about each bit. Her narrative is "I am being forced to get a divorce because my husband (Enabler) is abusive towards me and the kids, I am a good Christian and God is on my side and will guide me through and provide. I would like the divorce to be as amicable as possible because I am a reasonable person that behaves impeccably... .I am faultless". At the end of the process you draw up agreement, sign and rubber stamp with courts as "the agreement".

I am playing ball with this as I believe this will produce the best outcome for me and the my access to the kids. I am HUGELY conscious of parental alienation and potential for messy divorce should a lawyer get in her grips, especially once she plays abuse victim card.

We're in the UK

I would not "call her on it"... .that seems like "fighting back".

I would get your part of the agreement done and when it comes time, ask for her documents.  (we know they won't be ready).

Then it's kind of a wondering aloud thing... ."wouldn't it be better if we made and stuck with a decision?"

Here is the thing... .if you want to stay married... .that would be time to state that and YOU take action to put the marriage back together.

If you want to be apart, I would suggest that is good time to file yourself.

You've talked... .made agreement, let that run it's course.

FF

Thanks FF,

So I guess given the process we're going on that would mean doing all the financials together then getting to the point of putting the house on the market and saying "hey, what's happening to the decree nisi?". The issue is that these things can run in parallel and bits she hasn't done can be picked up and completed along the way. Telling the kids is a huge milestone for her I suspect. They will be devastated as will I having to be involved in telling them. I think she wants me to validate what she's doing and how she's feeling by enabling the divorce by being proactive. This goes against all rational thought to actually drive your whole family fun bus off the cliff to validate a feeling of abuse that was fictitious in the first place!

I would advise you to get your own T and a family counselor to support your family.

I would specifically ask what YOU should tell your kids when YOU do not want to get a divorce.  I would assume there is a generally accepted healthy answer for that... .let your T guide you to that answer with the nuance of your situation.

I would NOT in any way participate in a family meeting informing your kids of things that you do not think, feel or want.

That is different from a family meeting where accepting things we don't want is talked about.  I'm not suggesting you blame your wife for the divorce but you definitely should NOT save her from responsibility for HER decisions.

It's always good to get financials in order, to get a house fixed up and to organize YOUR financial future in a way that a disordered person has a small effect on it.  That is always a good thing, even if you stay married.

FF

I agree with FF. Take the necessary steps to get the house fixed up and your financial future figured out.

Then do no more.

We all know how chaotic a disordered person's thinking is and how they can flit from one thing to another. If you don't want a divorce, why would you help her in this direction? Without your help she might very well abandon the idea because it's too much work.

Thanks FF and CF, I have been seeing a T for the last 6m+ basically ever since I found BPD. We have talked extensively about the divorce and he too was doubtful that she would actually pull the trigger. However she has a very supportive network of friends who are carrying her mentally over the line... .well pushing her really. I believe this in part is where some of the confusing meaaages come from in that her friends have received one set of data of half truths and are therefore advising her accordingly. Similarly her T and this is a total guess is working her towards an outcome and getting her unstuck... .that outcome being what she says she wants which is a divorce (has been since mar17).

There has been a fair amount of FOG with regards to telling the kids, being told by W that it should be a joint message and such that we care for the kids still. I am uneasy with regards to saying to the kids that it's a joint decision as this is not true and it's likely to be something I will want to correct at a later date. Since the kids are not stupid they have intimated about what will happen and I have not lied and said that if we got divorced we would have to sell the home BUT I did not want this to happen and I am doing everything humanly possible to prevent it. I am aware that at a later date when the reality of the grass being not so green W will likely blame me for her situation, I do not need the additional complication of "daddy lied to us". My T agrees this is the best policy and said that children primarily required honesty and consistency, something I provide in bountiful volumes.

I think financials got lost in translation a little, I referring to a document you have to do disclosing all incomes outgoings, assets and liabilities. UBPDw in part wants/needs to do this together (and the collaborative process somewhat requires that) such that we can come up with a financial settlement ourselves rather than the court. My sht is very much in order and one of the flash points have been around how conservative (well not really, just realistically planning to pay off mortgage and achieve joint life goals), she does not have free reign over the money I earn and this was a decision I made early on in the marriage such was her chaotic attitude towards spending. It's not extreme but she had no concept of whether or not she was overdrawn and it sometimes felt like I was micro managing a kid and their pocket money. It was embarrassing and humiliating for both of us.

I am prepping the house for sale with regards to structural and decorating. She is supposed to be cleaning and organising but I've seen little sign of this so far.

This whole thing feel nonsense, as a friend at a New Year's Eve party we went to said "that's the best evening I've had with a soon to be divorcing couple ever!" I didn't see the funny side tbh. My T believes that she is building a mental case against me and when one bit of "evidence" is found to be fallible in supporting her feeling she baits me into another situation to provide additional evidence. I am quickly refusing to rise to the bait although the techniques to get the prized "he's abusive" are becoming more and more perverse.

Thanks for the ongoing support guys xx

So... in a couple sentences.

I am participating in the collaborative divorce process with my wife because... .


Please tell me about YOUR reasons... .

FF

Confrontation begets confrontation, collaborative approach is least likely to result in emotional escalation and thus result in better outcomes for me and the kids.

I believe that I can get a better financial outcome for me whilst we both work under her narrative of "I am a good Christian and God is on my side and will guide me through and provide. I would like the divorce to be as amicable as possible because I am a reasonable person that behaves impeccably... .I am faultless". non-collaborative lawyers will discourage this narrative.

Collaborative approach involves effort and commitment to a genuine outcome of leaving me by her. I am not convinced in her conviction and therefore this process tests her resolve... .and buys time. Time for me to learn, time for me to show validation and different way, time for her to recycle.

Oh... .also about 10th of the cost

I'm using an "inflammatory" (but I think accurate) example to make sure you have thought this through and have your priorities in order.

I'm not judging your priorities... .but I hope you would agree that now is the time to be sure.

You are essentially saying that you are willing to "pull the plug" on your marriage, or go along with your wife "pulling the plug" because there will be less confrontation and it will be cheaper.  

I agree with your analysis it will be cheaper and less confrontational.  No argument there.  

However, I would encourage you to look around... .is your plan to "always" save money and "always" go with the path of no confrontation.

When you are divorced and she wants to do (blank) with the kids and it is against your values, will you go with cheaper and less conflict?

What would move you to putting values ahead of money and conflict?

Big breath... .shift gears.

Said another way, any fair reading (IMO) of the stories of divorce show that at some point a pwBPD will "need" to be "stood up to", especially when children are involved.  (if there were no kids, I would completely endorse your strategy)

Since you will have a relationship of sorts until the kids are 18... .I would be very careful about the precedent that you set.

Big breath...

Is your faith a big deal?  It would seem to be for your wife?  Why save her from "confronting her choices with God"?  It's one thing to "persecute" her with scripture.  It's another to avoid enabling her to claim "erroneously" that her husband meets the Biblical standard for divorce.

Big breath... .

There will be a day when you will have to say something directly to your children about your choices and your values regarding your marriage (regardless of stay or leave decision).  Will your actions/decisions match the actions that you have taken and they can plainly see (as well as those they can't see).  

Big Breath... .

Circle back to "pull the plug".  There are times when conflict is healthy.  Even if the outcome is not what you wanted or fought for.  If you fight for your marriage and still loose it, there is much less of a chance of "shoulda, woulda, coulda... ." since you likely showed all your cards and accepted the outcome.

Hang in there... .you have lots to think through.  

FF

A cautionary note: I began a collaborative process with my ex-husband only to have him find the meanest pit bull divorce attorney in town who sent me a petition for full spousal support as well as title to the property I bought with an inheritance.

PwBPD can turn on a dime when they think their financial interests are at stake.

Hey FF thank for your response, nicely thought out and your usual impeccable analysis.

My approach to this divorce is not apathetic but outcomes focused whilst accepting that I am powerless to control her. The outcomes I would like to achieve are:

Ultimate -
Not get divorced and work on the marriage be that me working on my own or both of us working together.

Realistic outcome based on the actions she is taking and choices SHE is making which I have no control over -
Preserve long term access and relationship to my children
Maintain my children's welfare to the best of my ability
Maintain my ££ capital such that I am best placed to have choices with regards to how and where I continue my life going forwards out of my marriage

With these outcomes in mind I do not see that handing the situation over to professionals who are incentivised to up the anti and are essentially paid to kick the hornets nest. Although I have been my wife's emotional caretaker for some 20 years I have not done so in a passive manner and one of the reasons I am likely in this situation is that I am confrontational. As an example, in our first legal mediation session her agenda was to get me out of the family home. I did not invalidate what she said but I just asked her second derivative questions about how that would look... .she had no answers to those questions so backed down and was forced to accept a reasonable compromise. In the second legal mediation session we discussed wording of the Decree Nisi. Her reasons for wanting a divorce were not based on reality (well the reality that I know anyway). I said that although I would not contest them in court as I believed this was just a futile waste of time and money but on principle I would like to say that I do not agree with her reasoning and she needs to feel comfortable with the fact that our children may one day read it. I am being assertive with her without wasting my time fighting the inevitable. On another occasion I stated that I would like a relatively rigid plan for time with the children as I didn't trust her to keep her word. She was gobsmacked by the suggestion until I pointed to evidence of her systematic deceit in the past months not to mention previous years of the relationship. When she has tried to change the agreed plan I have stood my ground and been reasonable.

With regards to my faith. I have wavering religious beliefs due to some medium term events surrounding my fathers death. I do however hold ENORMOUS weight to my word/duty/integrity and the promises I made to her on our wedding day. She has extremely strong Christian beliefs which she has managed to manipulate around her feelings. Her religious beliefs are so contorted now that she has found so many loopholes (in her head) that "those rules don't apply to me" "I can get a divorce with gods blessing because I'm being abused and since he controls everything he must have controlled me falling in love with another man in the church." So, with this in mind I have told questioned her numerous times about how she can tally her actions with her religious beliefs and all she says is "you don't have a personal relationship with God, what would you know?" before storming out and dysregulating. She has seen 5 different groups including 3 sets of church leaders who have all told her that her special friendship is not Gods work, yet she continues... .whether or not she has housed that relationship as "just friends" and therefore irrelevant to the marriage, I don't know anymore. I believe that her narrative there is "How could I be married to Enabler and Love OM at the same time, I can't love Enabler and it can't be what God wants".

So yes, you are right, when I "stand up" to her she backs off like a little kid, however if I push too hard she runs away screaming like a kid. It's a fine line between being firm and assertive whilst being reasonable and genuinely being able to chastise her enough to get her to confront the inconsistencies with what she is doing. The latter pushes her forwards with anger and the former prompts her to stop but not necessarily retract. She shows absolutely no signs of relenting with her narrative but seems more likely to create evidence to support her feelings. I have accepted that I cannot change her, I cannot control her and I cannot make her see that her actions are in complete contravention to what she believes in. It may be that we have to get divorced before she realises changes her narrative about me. I cannot berate her into submission with lawyers.  

I hear you Cat, I have been speaking to other people who went all the way through this process only for it to be ripped up by some lawyer promising £££££. However, if you start a fire with petrol, you'll never know if you could have done it with a few twigs (terrible analogy I know). The cost of trying is meaningless and time is my friend.

Fundamentally my wife is not a nasty person, she is an emotional person who does bad things and says odd things in emotional situations. She ultimately wants to be seen as good.

Well, I think your collaborative approach is a good one in this situation. My experience with lawyers is that in most cases, they run the meter up, regardless of the outcome. I have had exceptions to this rule, however.

A big generalization about pwBPD that I have lived with: They are all LAZY! It's driven me crazy at times but now I understand it's a product of their thoughts and feelings changing quickly.

Since your wife has made no moves toward straightening up the house for sale, I doubt that she will. She probably thinks, if she thinks of it at all, that you will take care of the things she promised to do.

So, I think your best strategy is to do nothing. Why do anything at all? You want to stay married. If she wants to dissolve the marriage, let that be on her.

I have a different take on the lazy bit. My W apparent laziness comes in 3 distinct forms:
- "it is not important to me"
- "I know it's important to you and I am angry with you so I will intentionally not do it or do it badly"
- "I like chaos and I like being the victim, I feel comfortable here and by doing xyz it will reduce chaos/victim, so I shall not do that"

I actually think this comes under 1&3 as well as wanting to be "good" and being conflicted as to whether this is "good".

Oh yes, they love to be the victim.

OK... I see you are trying to "thread the needle".  I've attempted and sometimes done it... .

Sort of a keep your enemies closer so you can keep an eye on them.

At least that I what I'm hearing... .am I getting that right?

What I don't see is when you "turn the steering wheel" and start driving down the marriage road.  Can you fill in some detail there?

I get it, it won't be a precise plan.

What I see is she has invited you to drive down the road to divorce and you have at least hopped in the car with her... .there is tacit agreement and certainly a "mixed message" if the message you want her to hear is "I want to be married"

FF

Fair point FF regarding where I turn the wheel down marriage avenue. I have no plan. From an experience in 2007 when she left for 3m and then came back I can honestly say that the reasons for returning were never discussed and it was just a case of she'd forgiven me. Forgiven me for what I didn't know as I'd made it pretty clear to her in a 9 page email that it was all her.

I see this situation as more of a sail ship without a rudder, it will keep storming towards the Azores and then have a period of calm before the wind changes across the equator and boom we're off in a different direction... .or maybe not. I cannot MAKE her change direction, all I can do is stop it getting worse and reduce the emotions such that she can think. The past 3 weeks have been "better" especially since I have cut all fuel from the fire.

She is in non-DBT therapy so my hopes and prayers are that the therapist is trying to steer the ship not necessarily for the marriage (I doubt that is important to the T) but towards accepting there is something wrong. I cannot play any part in "making her aware" of anything, from experience that is utterly futile even down to scriptural contradictions. The irony, she has been aceepted to be trained as an assistant pastor at a women's prison. She has recurring visions of prisons and being trapped which she interprets to be meaaages from god about her calling. Common also in childhood attachement trauma issues... .

Listen... .I'm not against your plan at all.  You hear me many times tell people to be pragmatic... .to be in the moment and all of that.

As long as you are clear in your mind that you are looking for an opening and that you want to be wise about that opening.

I have two schools of thought that some accuse me of being "forked tongue"... .I claim I'm not.

Remember background... .naval aviator and grew up in Appalachia... .(the hold my beer and watch this jokes are funny... .because they are accurate... .sometimes you just have to try some crazy sh$t).

Over and over on here you see me making plans and advising people on plans.  The one thing I can assure you is that whatever you plan to do... .that is not going to happen.

The plan is not what you are going to do, it is the measuring stick you will use to "adjust" things while someone is "holding your beer" and you are doing what you planned.

(clarity:  two schools of thought, plan things out and "be in the moment"  They do go together.

In over 20 years... .the aircraft carrier was never where it said it would be... .seriously... .never.   So, there is a bit of a mindset that goes with taking off and not exactly knowing where you will land... .of if you will get wet... .but a swagger and confidence that somehow you will work something out.

You are going to need that attitude... .but keep it private.  Plus... (shhhh... don't tell anyone)... .I really don't want any more guys with big mustaches and attitudes cutting in on that harem that I have... .errrr... .I mean ... .that my wife thinks I have.  

Ok... easy stuff first.

1.  No more tell all emails... .stop that.  :)ivorce or otherwise.  
2.  Keep fixing the house... .but stop talking about the reasons.
3.  I don't understand the financials, but get yourself organized.  Stop providing solutions for her.  She can organize too... .or she can choose not to... .or she can hire a CPA.  I likely need to understand this better... .
4.  Talk in detail with your T about what you will tell you kids if your wife goes forward.
5.  Talk in detail with your T about what you can do to "wind the clock" for a few months.


If you wife is participating in some kind of T... .let that sort itself out... .live your own life.  Focus on your kids... .

Last:  I want you to get a book  and read it secretly.  

Love must be tough by James Dobson.  

https://www.amazon.com/Love-Must-Be-Tough-Marriages/dp/141431745X

I'm not proselytizing you.  There is a dysfunctional religious thing going on in your marriage.  It's likely contributed to your "distaste" for Christianity (is there a better word we can agree on?)   Completely understandable that you would be less than attracted to a religion of grace and peace when your primary exposure to it is... .(what you have gotten).

That being said... .Dobson does pretty good on "tough love" and Christianity.  Be aware this is not a book "about" BPD, but there are principles in the book about human attraction that I want you to consider.  There are many examples of succinctly stating your position on the relationship and "being unavailable" to your partner... . Plenty of examples about establishing respect.

I have this notion that at the right time an approach similar to this book might work to "turn the wheel".  

Thoughts?

FF

FF that makes perfect sense, I have a potential landing zone of "the Mediterranean Sea" and I have my trunks on ready to get wet. There's a sketched plan but it's plenty vague.

Doing my own thing re house and financials, taking a very it will happen when it can happen not when you want it to happen. If she pushes hard I push back small, if she pulls, I pull.

Kids are primary focus and building rock solid relationship with them. T commended me for some solid sensitive dad conversations I've had with D9 & D7 recently. That in itself is good clock winder as W looks to kids to validate "dad is abusive" and they are very much not doing that.

Will get book and read and intend to talk to T or at least email for some ideas.

Re God. My view on Christianity is not tainted by W. I was born and raised baptist and dad preached and planted churches. I'm well versed on what is and isn't cool with Christianity even amongst more evangelical circles. I even get how my wife has managed to pickle herself in her religious beliefs. There is a perception of religious liberation with evangelical christians BUT under the veneer of free interpretation is a rock solid foundation of scripture. My W bought into the veneer and then interpreted that to mean the rock foundation was also liberal as well. "I'm free to rejoice as I please and interpret religious expression, therefore I am also entitled to interpret scripture with my own religious expression". I haven't been able to validate her on that. I believe she is using Christianity as spiritual bypassing, filling her empty soul where mummies love should be with gods love. But the soul has holes in it so she has to get more and more extreme in devotions.

Argggg pesky legal mediation guy keeps sending chasing emails regarding the financial disclosure information W and I are supposed to be doing together. I really don't need anyone pushing the D agenda. I know it is what it is but this guy has no legitimate reason for chasing as there's no time constraints on the process. It acts a reminder to her to refocus on the D process rather than any other potential path.

Rant over

Umm... big breath... take this from a "I'm on your side" point of view.

That anyone includes you... .

This is a perfect example of the "unintended consequences" of heading down a divorce path and agreeing to things that you do not agree with.

Please don't hear... ."I told you so"... .please take this as help understanding the gravity and the "dynamite" you are playing with by heading down this road.

Before I get too mean and pushy... .     :) :)

You had mentioned in a previous post that when she pushes... you will push a little and when she pulls you will do the same.

This is EXACTLY what you should be doing to help center her.  Good job and good strategy.

FF

FF, I didn't choose to go down the divorce route, she started the ball rolling and my guess is she expected the process to take her with the flow... .which it kinda is. I verbalised since Mar17 that I was against divorce, but what am I to do? Restrain her?... .control her?

Emailed the guy back including W and said, "We're working through it at our own pace and have had some distractions including Christmas, we'll be in touch". She might be grateful, she might be angry but felt like I was taking some control there without spelling it out "back off". Tried to call the guy as well but no answer.

I'm a bit off this morning (bit of a dustup here last night)... .so please don't take any of this as personal attack or harsh.

It's important that we are honest with ourselves. 

True... .you can't control her... .I'm not suggesting you do that. 

I AM suggesting that your words and actions should align with YOUR truth and YOUR values... .especially with critical decisions like divorce.  As compared to what house we buy, car, schools... .

I hate to say I don't see anyplace to compromise on divorce.  So... .would you be happy if your wife compromised and only decided to get "a little bit pregnant"?  (hopefully got a grin... .)

Also... .there is a "truth" on bpdfamily that divorce should NEVER be used to change someones behavior.  "I'll file for divorce, that will "scare" her into realizing xyz and abc will change". 

That's playing with dynamite... .

Last analogy.  When you wife "got in the car" and said I'm driving towards divorce... .did you get in with her and start helping her drive that way?  That's ... .at best... .tacit agreement.

Please don't be defensive... .be reflective... .you have made the decisions you have made... up to this point.  Think about what you will do next... .

FF

FF, you constantly astound me with you ability to give good advice whilst under fire, but then I guess that's because you spent most of your career looking down at the map whilst the dude in front of you was engaging the baddies.

At no single point have I EVER condoned complicit or otherwise driving the family fun bus towards the cliff. I have never removed my wedding band in anger, I have never left for a night other than under duress. The closest I have ever been to agreeing with divorce was:

"I do not want a divorce. I do not think this is the right thing for anyone in our family. However, I understand it is futile to stand in your way if this is something you choose to do, however, I will not be assisting you."

The (my) truth is shaming towards her and invalidates the fantasy of being a victim she has created.

 
Other way around... .I was guy in front (primarily) although I did do some time in the back when it was needed.


Hey man... .really not piling on... .but going to meetings and emailing with financial guys and "cooperative divorce" seems... .to me... .on some level... .tacit agreement.  Certainly NOT a clear message of resistance.

And... .and... .I do see some validity to prior reasons I've heard about keeping her close... understanding process... .and all that.  I just want you to understand that ANY "help" moving towards divorce is going to be interpreted, especially by her... .as agreement and validation of her "decision".

Be careful... .today's email was an example and was a potential (although likely unwise) time to "turn and drive the other way).

"I've decided I want to remain married and will not be participating in a collaborative divorce process"

Not saying send that... .but that would be clear indication that YOU are "driving the family bus"... .the other way.

Just sayin... .

FF

That's certainly turning the wheel towards the oncoming fire... .

I'm struggling to tally how 'that' reduces emotional dysregulation nor how it doesn't add fuel to her narrative of "Enabler is abusive"... .and her definition of "abuse" is pretty flexible including asking "do you mind if I ask where you're going tonight?".

Excellent question!   |iiii   And I think the answer applies specifically to your situation and generally to all that may pass by this post

IMO... .you can't be "that specific" in trying to get a pwBPD to stop a behavior.  Being that specific actually indicates to me that the behavior has "hooked" you and "is working" for the pwBPD.

So... .pwBPD use dysfunctional tools because they "work" for them to acquire or "get" a dysfunctional need satisfied.  (this is our view of it... .they likely wouldn't be so intellectual about it)

So... you wife "feels" something odd and "reacts" by accusing you of abuse... .she likes whip cream and a cherry on top... .so she posts it on facebook, calls someone on a telephone, and goes to a stoner convention and while high as a kite... .""Whhhhooaaa man... that enabler is one abusive SOB... and this is some killer ganji"... .   :) :)  Please learn and smile... .you can get through this.

Your job is not to convince her that you are not abusive... .your job is to convince her (primarily with your actions, words are secondary) that her actions don't "work" (resulting in her looking for another tool and hopefully you can nudge her towards a less dysfunctional one)

Usually there is some kind of reaction they are "after"... deny the reaction... .call it good and move on.  


Removing emotional dysregulation is a goal (and a worthy one)... just like learning to validate is a worthy goal... .but you have to be wise about how you rank your goals

"Giving in" and taking your wife to a movie because "you don't love her" and  "you are abusive" and "you don't wear deodorant" and "you've never taken your wife on a date" and "you never had sex with me" and "you hate my mother" and... (we should make this a contest to see what else she could claim).

Dude... .FF says give in all day long.  Be friendly... "Oh babe... I don't know what to say".  pause... ."Here's your Coke and popcorn."... ." what do you think of the new disney movie".  (just move along... .no reaction at all... it's a movie... )

So... .juxtapose this with... .

"Enabler is abusive"... ."I want a divorce"... .and... ."I want a shrubbery... ."  Enablers answer is... ."Ok... I'll go along with that and go to your meeting and do financials"... .

FF says BS.  

"Omygoodness... ."... .pause  "I have no words... ."  Pause  (shoulder shrug) "I would be sad... "  

Talk about it no further.  Note... I don't think you need to specifically say at first "I don't want a divorce"... I think the goal is that you don't say the words for a bit.  Take some power away from the words.

(for clarity... the word to not say is divorce... .and... yeah... .don't say shrubbery either... or neeee.)

Enabler drops to his knees... .Enabler wife says "divorce"... .he begs her... .stop it... stop it... .I'll get you a divorce if you never say the word again... .

Best I could do...

The big truth... .if she wants a divorce... she will get one  You are not divorced... .therefore... .FF says she is "using divorce" for some other purpose.

FF is hushing now... . 

Thoughts?

FF

https://youtu.be/2UbtcmjfKa8

I don't mean to jump in here, but FF thanks for the Monty Python reference... .made my afternoon  :)

I am possibly the most risk averse guy on the planet and basically you are asking me to play Russian roulette.

Apparently we're having a chat tomorrow night regarding kids and house. I'm 100% FO at the moment... .G is long gone.

The question I ask myself is, was she planning on having that chat tonight but after seeing me with the kids and the kids so happy... .couldn't quite bring herself to do it... .after all, that doesn't fit with the narrative does it! She visibly hated them having fun with me.

I think the "I think you need to take ownership of the decision when we tell the kids" will be a big enough can to kick down the road... .

I will try not to fart in her generrrrrrral direction either.

What does this mean? 

I may be dense... .sense I just got done yelling at my computer... because my online homework system for my MBA class went Tango Uniform.

Yep... .I'll give a special FF treat to anyone who can correctly interpret Tango Uniform.

Back to Russian Roulette.  The game I am asking you to play only has a few bullets in the gun... .the game you are playing has more bullets.

Big picture FOG (the fear part is working you over on FOG) and potentially driving you places you otherwise wouldn't want to be.

We may want to start a new thread about tomorrow nights talk, perhaps we can help.  Talking and listening is OK... she wants to be heard... .

Decisions and action should be avoided for a bit.


FF

I fear the consequences of her choices and behaviour and the impact they will have on me and my future relationship with the kids, therefore as you say I'm being done over by my own fear of rattling the sabre.

I feel obligated to participate in this circus for fear of the above and provocation to more and more extreme behaviour.

I feel no guilt... .guilt has evaporated. Guilt is something I was given and it can do one.

One of my values is being a reasonable person. It's not working for me at the moment maybe it never has. I expect to be treated reasonably if I treat people reasonably. I have always regarded a loving caring relationship to have its foundations in the security you will always treat each other reasonably at the very least. Asking her to take ownership of the divorce should be enough to delay decisions and actions for a week or so plus. That is in line with my core values and is reasonable.

With a pwBPD, you have to take "reasonable" out of the equation. Sure, sometimes it will happen, but it's not a given. It's like playing cards with someone who feels free to look at your cards or draw extras out of the deck if they don't like their hand. You can protest all you want about "fairness" but if you want to play cards with them, that's how they play.

Strategies I sometimes use are "purposeful laziness" or "being dense". Lots of times he says he wants to do something, but if I don't help the process along, it will never happen. So I "forget".

Being dense--once I got over being mildly ridiculed for not understanding something and needing a more detailed explanation from him, I discovered how wonderfully this strategy works. Often, when asked for more detail because "I don't understand" he will just give up and say "Never mind" and the subject is forgotten for a time, or forever.

So, the can was kicked and the ball is in her court. The evening started with a bit of TV because the kids had just gone to bed, this was followed by a conveeaation about how the financial disclosure was going. I played a bit dumb before she started on about selling the house and how it didn't matter that the financials weren't completed and we could sell it anyway... .I then asked why she hadn't applied for divorce and how I wasn't keen to sell the house without a divorce process in place. She then pleads that she's not had enough time in the last 2 months... .sigh. I point out that I don't want a divorce and that it's not good for anyone in the family at all. She asks what the alternative is, I reply that we should work on our marriage, that I felt there was something that had kept us together for 20yrs and we needed to rediscover this. She claims she lives in fear and that was wrong... .he said she said... .bla bla bla.

If she wants a divorce she can get it. It's all well and good having these little chats where she tells me how tough it is to get her sht together because she has to look after 3 kids... .but it bull.

Small dysregulation with plenty of fog afterwards where she threatened to leave the house... .to which I said "I really don't care what you decide to do". She didn't like the fact that I pointed out that she loses it with the kids almost every day. She said "if I'm so dangerous you should get social services involved and you shouldn't want to be with me".

The can is kicked, the fence is almost complete and other house things will be done.

Cat,  caught between the desire to not force someone who doesn't want to be with me leave, and desire to do what is right and reasonable in the face of what I know to be BS rationale to throw away a family. Just before said evenings fun we all sat down to watch "sing" the movie with the kids, lovely family time, good laugh going to bed. It's just nonsense.

Enabler, these conversations get on my nerves. I’ve had pretty much the same convo, and not trying to force anything. Her reasons are BS and my uBPDw would throw everything great away just to prove a point the she’s a victim.

As Cat says trying to play cards by the rules never happens and it really boils my blood. I do so much understand the fear of the mess she’ll unknowingly create.

I also fear for myself that there’s only so many times I can have a talk that goes “t-ts up” before I give up on my own.

Don’t forget to breathe.

-Oz

Thanks Oz. To be fair, I was very much breathing and very much in control of what I said for once.

I tried to see if I could stall having the conversation at all but she was clearly keen to have the talk to some extent and see how we (but really mainly me) could push the process along. I in effect derailed any hope of us having a sensible conversation by pointing out the glaring inconsistencies in her priorities and by stating clearly that I did not see a divorce as being aligned to her values or the benefit of any of the family members.

She knows what she has to do and it doesn't involve having cake and eating it.

Yesterday I completed the fence work and cleaned out her car as she has to take a prospective new vicar round the village on a guided tour and the car looks like someones had a mud fight in it... .  Why?... .Because that is a nice thing to do and I am nice person. Church is important to her and I want to support that, regardless of whether or not she wants to kick me in the head. She was appreciative. But I didn't do it for that.

Glad to hear you had a level head in the conversation.  That is something I've been struggling with lately.  I DID have the level head for so many years that I feel like I've hit some internal limit that I have yet to figure out... .

My T often tells me to make her (my wife) do the work when it comes to divorce and it seems like you are swinging things around that way for you.  Keep up the good work,  the cake reference is often used by my wife.  She tells me that it annoys her when people tell her she can't have her cake and eat it too because "what the f--k do they know, its my cake and I'll eat it... ."

Lately I've been busy on house projects too.  Figure it keeps me away from her, they need to get done, and if she does ever follow through with divorce it will be less on my to-do list to sell the house.  You are a nice person and do nice things for people, I am too and have no intention to change that.  I just have to change my expectation that my wife would say thank you... .

I’ve never gotten a thank you either and I do house projects constantly. Oops, I lied. He did say thank you when I grouted and sealed the floor in his studio. And then he has the nerve to tell me that I don’t appreciate all that he does for me, and I’m thinking, um, what exactly is it that you do?

Sorry for the hijack, just couldn’t help myself.  *)

I was thinking a bit about gratitude whilst I was digging post holes. I think that pwBPD confuse the emotions of gratitude with guilt. They are close cousins and certainly from my wife's experience my MIL would drag her through the coals for anything she did for my W... .therefore gratitude = guilt. so, portraying gratitude is "I owe you", "you have one over me." Rather than "Thanks, that was just a kind thing you did for me, you're the best".

Very interesting take on this.  I hear all the time from uBPDw that I owe her xyz... .and then on the flip side she will say that she owes me nothing!

I believe her mother piled the guilt onto her when she was a kid, that could make some sense... .I will have to think about this one for a little bit.

Cat... thanks for the laugh, I often find myself after doing the laundry, dishes, pets, lawn, bills, taxes being told I do nothing and wondering... .what exactly did she do today?

i think my W knows she would struggle to hold her ground if she even though "enabler doesn't do anything" BUT instead she's constantly telling me how busy she is and how she doesn't have time to do things... .a good example being applying for the decree nisi, the wording was "agreed" at the beginning of Nov17 but yet she claimed she didn't have time. She made huge efforts to tell me what a priority it was that she got divorced! Apparently looking after the 3 kids whilst they were in full time education soaked up all those hours... .and the jogs... .and the bike rides.

I really don't want to sound like I don't have any respect for my wife. She has soo much potential and does some wonderful things. Things that are important to her such as church work and looking after the kids (assuming nothing else becomes a priority to them). I just find it so difficult to really respect someone who doesn't couple their potential with consistency in their word, consistency with their values, consistency with their feelings towards me... .the sense that she doesn't respect me. Now I know the latter comment is on shaky ground, she's not capable of showing me she respects me for the above reason so my ability to sense her respect and care is challenged.

Wrapping this thread up and started a new one on W's fear of me and the chat.

I'll check out your new thread.

For clarity to all:  It's not our job to solve the time pressures and business of our pwBPD.  Plus, deep down we know... .we know if something really is a priority that they will figure it out.

We know that.

If we look at this interaction from a drama triangle point of view, perhaps it makes more sense.  

"I'm so busy with all I do I just don't have time to  (fill in the blank)"  The blank really doesn't matter, it just happens to be divorce for Enablers thread (or financials or whatever we want to call it)

Of the three choices  victim, rescuer, persecutor... .it "makes sense" that she is "bidding" or "trying to assume" the position of "victim".  Life has got her so busy... .that she just cant... get it done.

She is hoping you will assume rescuer or even persecutor, because she knows how to respond to either one.

The worst for her is for you to stay "in the center" or "out of it"...

She doesn't get rescued... that is worst for her.

FF

I'm making that happen!