BPDFamily.com

There was a dustup (verbal) last night.  My goal is not to regale you with a long detailed complicated story... my goal is to be open and ask for encouragement and support to press forward with needed changes... or perhaps decision points that are coming.

Big picture:  I'm disabled... .it's kinda like playing whack a mole.  Fix this... that other thing "gets bad"... "whack that" and something else goes wrong.  "Stress" from relationships doesn't help.

So... my blood pressure has been steadily getting worse.  I'm between one and two months on medication.  When "stress free" the medication works.  When there is an "episode" (BPD) the medicine doesn't work.

Last night I awoke in the middle of the night and took my BP... (just happened to wake up)  But I woke up "feeling" stressed.

150/98 (properly medicated) and lying in bed.

Normal walking around in the day with medicine in and working is 119/89 (no stress... normal daily activity with meds)

Just before I started typing this post 166/105.  Wife has been very affectionate today... .yet my stress remains.

In the last couple of weeks I've talked to three different doctors (ok... one is my P... .as PhD level Psychologist)... .  We've looked at my BP records... .talked ... .changed medication slightly and ALL have a consistent message.

You can't medicate your stress away  It's 100% clear where that source of stress is.  BP changes surrounding BPD episodes.

To be sure... they all examined me and didn't fear that I would fall over this second, yet all completely say this can't go on.  Your body is sending you a message.

Today P coached me on some word tracks... .for the next day or two.  Get things calm and go out for coffee and have some conversations about the future.

Either she is going to participate in my medical care or not.

Last night in dysregulated state... ."they are all secular... all sinners... .I don't have to listen to them... .if you would just love God".

The "weaponization" of scripture and God is somehow deeply rooted in our r/s.  P and I briefly talked today about my PTSD being hooked into that... .and I need to take that into account with my choices about where I worship.

More on that later... .

No rush on my part... .changes must be made... .I'm not going to "like" many of them (I suspect).

Anyway... .I appreciate all you guys... .don't know how I would do this without you.

Thanks

FF

Wow FF, I can feel your stress coming off the screen.  But its probably because I can relate.  I often find when dealing with BPD "stuff" literally right now as she incessantly texts me about how much I suck and she wants to move on (whilst trying to plan a vacation next month... )  I hold my breath.  I actually just stop breathing.  Doesn't matter, breathe in or out, I often find myself getting really "off" only to realize I need to breathe again.

I'd be afraid to know what this is doing to my BP and I am glad that you have some medical care looking out for you.

My T often reminds me that I am actually feeling physical effects from my emotional pain in this relationship and it seems you are as well.

You have often given me advice and I wish I could offer some back here.  Instead all I can say is I understand.  I also understand that when it comes to physical health, that is something that really needs to be attended to and quickly before it gets worse or permanent.

Knowing how important the physical health is certainly puts pressure on oneself to make some pretty drastic changes.

Best of luck to you sir.

-Oz

FF, you know I married my DH after his 30-year infantry career and a long-term marriage  to a uNPD/BPD that left him PTSD more than SE Asia could have imagined.

We deal with high blood pressure meds, cholesterol meds, type 2 diabetes meds, and his continued resistance to therapy for marital PTSD.  In addition, we grew up with a conservative Protestant religion that makes marital failure difficult to accept and admit.  And  still he's so much better than 11 years ago!

What to do? I'm at a loss. I've had to work through my anger at what his previous marriage did to his health. His stress level has always been through the roof. He feels responsible for everyone and everything.

We maintain really high insurance on each other. And I am financially independent.

I want him to be with me as long as possible.

He will probably did of a cardiac or other serious health event and leave me and his children behind.

What options do you have now? Are you concerned about a similar health situation?

This is nothing urgent as in days or weeks, but changes must be made to my "daily living activities".

If I ask to "pause" a conversation to do stress management... .well... .it just needs to happen.  If it can't, then really... .I can't have conversations or live with her. 

I suspect that she will calm and perhaps cooler heads will prevail.  Perhaps she will venture forth and take a meeting with doctors and I.

She has "blackened them" because they are "secular" and are "biblical".  Yes... .MDs, nurse practitioners and psychologists are all painted into that corner.

There will come a point where I start taking unilateral action to protect my health. 

I doubt that is weeks... .but it may be... .certainly in next few months.

I suppose my BP could miraculously fix itself... .but not a thing to plan for.

I'll write more later.

FF

"Weaponized scripture" plays a big part in my h, too; it doesn't help that his current pastor uses it that way, too. "secular/liberal/unchristian" are all labels to try to gain the upper hand. Thankfully, h's pastor told me that I should probably worship somewhere else, made it easy for me. H has described it as an 'affair', though - at least in the past. He is stuck where he is.

A moment of radical acceptance: from what I've read, FFwife hasn't been supportive of your physical or medical needs and often has minimized, denied, and blamed you for being 'less than'. I would expect more of the same. So, you need to be the one at the controls of your own health, regardless of what she does or commits to.

There's a hope that keeps us stuck in the cycle, hoping that people will change, and thinking that it should be different. We are the only ones who can make a change for ourselves.

One of the big wake up moments for me was the realization that I.could.die... . So, I needed to make changes.

This is where my thinking is.

FF

FF,

Just as much as I was in a relationship; I was also in a needs entitlement war.

By needs entitlement war,  I mean it was a real contest, a real struggle to get the needs/wants of either party addressed in a healthy way.

My Ex Partner's needs and wants always came first from her prespective.   I understand the psychology behind that.    Her wants and needs were so core to propping up her fragile sense of self that to deny them or even put them in a secondary position  felt very damaging to her.    My ex would "automatically assume she was being rejected or critized" if I asked to put my need or want for something first.

The way it played out, over and over, was I would express a need or a want, sometimes not very important, sometimes very important like your health concerns, and her subconscious, almost subliminal response was,  "You think what I want is not important,   You think I am not important,  You think I have to change myself and what I want to accommodate you and if I do that I will disappear."    Not quite expressed that way of course but that was the underlying message.


Compromise or negotiation was very difficult.    On the rare occasions we achieved it, it came very slowly and with very very small steps.

So I would suggest a couple of things, not in any order.     First, sit down with the yellow legal pad, divide it right down the middle and on the right side write what kind of participation in your health care you would really like.    The kind of participation you would like this month, next year,  in five years and in ten years.   Chronic medical issues don't go away and normally don't get better, they will require active management.     On the left hand write down the type of participation you can realistically expect.    Magic word in that sentence,  realistically.    You've been doing this for a long time.   You have a wealth of experience to draw from.    

It might very well be that what you would really like is someone to help manage the paper work associated with multiple doctors,  participate in diet and life style changes,  attend the occasional doctor's visit with you for emotional support on trying days.     All those are reasonable and normal to hope for.

Second suggestion,   whatever you end goal is,... .let's say reduce family stress and marital conflict to lower blood pressure,  don't start with that end goal or result,... take that goal and cut it in half and then cut it in half again, and then cut it in half one more time.   start there, very small, much more manageable, much more obtainable.    make the first mini goal simple - continue to foster awarenss of how living in a high conflict environment is impacting health, make the second mini goal also short and easy - for the next week I will [fill in the blank].     Don't try and solve this at a high level.

Third,  I would suggest tweaks in your language when you have to hit the pause button in a heated moment.   Not for her sake,... .for yours.     Language is important.    There is a famous quote that says "our words create our world".    And boy did they that get that right.  


Yes of course if you ask for a pause it should happen.   What I would suggest is that when you ask for a pause, maybe phrase it like this.    

'This is an interesting conversation and I know we will talk about it more, but right now I am going to make a cup of tea and relax on the back porch for a while'.  

That works for me because I like tea and back porches.   It also changes the focus just that tiny bit from stress management to relaxation.   Again this is for you, not her... .it begins the process of defusing from the tension of the moment.

What really concerns me in your message is this:
As I read this, I see this as a second related big ticket item.    I know your faith is of utmost importance to you.    Here is my concern.    I can't help but think that this 'weaponization' of your faith has unseen and unintended consequences much like the blood pressure.      If your spiritual beliefs are being used to force compliance, well I believe that will eventually come back to bite you in the tuchus.   I wouldn't want you to realize one day that your faith has not grown as much as you had hoped.

sorry, I got long winded.

'ducks

Hi FF-
Please take care of your health. I don't know if your wife is able to perceive your situation with accuracy.

I have seen this kind of thing happen in my marriage. I have posted about not having easy pregnancies. To me it is a no-brainer-  this self focus is not personal. However, my H saw it as me rejecting him. This makes no sense- but it is how it was perceived.

It doesn't even have to be health related. If I develop an interest in something that is self focused- like a new exercise routine, or new interest, there is a perception on my H's part that I am somehow withholding attention to him on purpose. Even if I just wanted to take a nap the impression was " you are faking sleep to ignore me".

I don't know where he comes up with this stuff. It's crazy thinking. I don't know what is going on with your wife. Maybe she thinks you can magically control your BP and if you loved her, you would.

Or maybe she is worried about you- and not being able to recognize her own bad feelings as hers, the perceives you as the cause of them.

With or without her understanding this- your first responsibility in this situation is to take care of yourself- whether she likes it or not.

Do you think your wife is in a drama triangle with you and God? Seems like to her, quoting religion/bible is used to rescue her/support her point of view. It is her who is discounting your medical team. You know that isn't true. Medical professionals of any background have the potential to be excellent. This is twisted thinking.

Cross posted with ":)ucks". Needs entitlement war says it perfectly.

First things first--triage--your blood pressure--this is the most important thing to address immediately. If you're not doing breathing exercises already, this is a good video to watch: https://www.drweil.com/videos-features/videos/the-4-7-8-breath-health-benefits-demonstration/

I've been doing this exercise when I find myself feeling stressed, if I wake up in the middle of the night, and upon falling asleep and waking in the morning. I find it to be immediately relaxing and soothing.

My thread on husband in a bad mood is similar in that I was feeling stressed just being around him, even if we were getting along OK; it was like I was picking up on the BPD radio waves and having a reaction. He was recently out of town for three days and I had a "vacation" where I was completely on my own time schedule. If you can swing this, I highly recommend it. Perhaps you can go visit your mother for a few days.

The next thing I'm going to say with a disqualifier: In no way do I mean to interfere with your religious beliefs. My thought is that as unique individuals, created by God, we all have autonomy to have a personal relationship with God and that relationship is inviolate from the thoughts and beliefs of others.

My feeling is that your wife is trying to control your personal connection with God and that is not her business. It's another boundary violation.

Babyducks described this conflict of needs entitlement. If your wife is in victim position, she probably can not feel supportive of your situation. I think we have an idea of what someone we are close to would say to us " oh honey, sit down for a moment so your BP isn't high" but if someone is so overwhelmed by their own bad feelings and is in victim position, this isn't how their thinking is. You are the one who needs to look after you.

Even when two people share the same religion- each one has their own individual concept of God. You both have an agreement for you to take the spiritual lead - and yet even so, your thoughts are your own- and your wife's thoughts are hers. God exists in the hearts and minds of people who choose to take that step of faith and the personal boundaries are the individual. You can not possibly manage how your wife thinks about God- because only she owns her thinking, and she can not decide how you do- even if the two of you agree on how religion is managed in your home- you are both separate individuals.

I wonder if it is possible to keep religious ideas out of arguments or negotiations about your BP- not because religion isn't important to you- but because it may add to the conflict if it is fueling the drama triangle. BP is not abstract- it's a measurable number. If she brings up religion, then a "honey, I would appreciate your prayers for my well being" and "I need to take care of this" might be one way to assert the boundary while supporting the religious views of your family.

I am going to pick up this insight from Notwendy because I think she was going in the same direction  I was.

I never knew that religion could become a weapon of abuse.   until it happened to me.   I could clearly see how money/finances could become a weapon in an abusive cycle.    I could see how other tangible items could become weapons of abuse.   "If you leave me I will make sure you never see the kids again".   Well that's crystal clear.

For me, a weaponized religion or faith was more a covert abuse.    ( FF,   I am not saying you are there.   I am only suggesting it's hard to notice when you are in the middle of it. )   If abuse is all about power and control, and that is what the experts tell us,... .then language that sounds like 'you aren't doing it right',... .'that isn't what God wants, you should do it this way',... .'you are wrong because God says so'... .'I am right because God wants it this way'... .well I see that as all about manipulating the power and control.   putting some one,  or some two in the "one up position"  that Karpman talks about on his inverted triangle.

for me, and this was my experience,   yours may be different,... .having experienced this subtle form of manipulation, I ended up with some damage to my faith, and to the practical expression of my faith.    In other words I took a ding.     I got hurt in ways that are hard to fix.

George Sand said this and I really like it:


What I like is the cling as to a treasure.     I never considered that my faith/religious expression could become intangled with my cptsd and @#$% it did.   Where I am right now is if I walk into my synagoge and see my 'unsafe person'   I trigger into a PTSD flashback.    I know that.   I am working on it.     I'm not there yet.    I didn't think it would be this difficult.

I hope it doesn't turn out this way for you.

my two cents.
'ducks

I'm going to start a new thread specifically for my "Babyducks morning"... .tip of the hat to duckster... . 

I will be listing out things on my computer (vice the yellow pad of paper) in the pro column and the against column. 

Putting some thoughts on paper, trying to organize my thoughts.

Let's keep this thread going as well... .accountability and discussion about what changes I will make that I control... .and changes I will ask my wife to make (knowing I can't control those).

All with the "big picture" that multiple doctors and my P have looked at "metrics" about my health as well as just looking at me and going "This can't continue... .something must change"

Oh... back to BabyDucks morning.  My list is going to start with religion and church... specifically the church we attend now (where the BC is a pastor). 

I'll do the health list later... but I will do it.

FF

FF

I attend an ACA group and many of the members there were subjected to "religious abuse" as children from their parents.

As humans we personify aspects of God and give God characteristics of humans- loving, benevolent, merciful etc. Our "relationship" with God is a relationship. If people have disordered thinking and disordered relationships, then this affects their relationship with religion.

Parents are god like models for children. These members in my group had parents who used religion in an abusive manner. As adults, they work on forming their own relationship to religion or a belief system that is nourishing to their soul.

Just like you have some boundaries on other aspects of your wife's behavior, it is possible to have boundaries on religious discussions as well- keeping them in a place of reverence and away from drama?

':)ucks, my wish for you is to be confident in your place in your synagogue, and your spiritual connection that is one on one between you and God, and your belonging among the Jewish people. You belong as much as anyone else. Your Ex has no right to displace you. I hope you can have this.

Kinda organizing my thoughts about this morning.

My P had warned me to be ready for manipulation on steroids following her big blowout on Thursday night.

Big shocker... .my wife uses sex to try and manipulate me.  She has been after me since Thursday night ... my answer has been

"Thursday night was a serious event... .I need space to care for my feelings and think things through... "

We have been kind to each other... .and on physical stuff she has been pushy... .but hadn't flipped out at the rejection.

So... .last night... .I was ok with having sex and... .let's just say she was really sorry and wanted to make it up to me.  I was under no illusions anything was "fixed" or she would change.  It was great sex... .nothing less... .nothing more (to me).  (also sad to realize that its a shame to be that way in marriage... .although I can see it being easier for a guy to "process" and "think that way" as opposed to a gal... .)  Any thoughts on that ?

So... this morning I was absent minded... and my wife asked me to roll over and snuggle.  I usually initiate.

So... .think about non sexual spooning.  My wife's love language is touch... bigtime.

After a bit she asks me why I never want to snuggle anymore.    "Oh babe... this feels comfy... " (didn't really address it)

Sort of realize the anxiety would start pouring out... .and it did.  Soo much easier when I'm rested... comfortable...

I let her know that I would be taking time this morning to "collect my thoughts" and think things through.  She tried to accuse me of confusing her... .I simply stuck with " i need time to think things through so I don't confuse you... "

She wanted to know where this was coming from  "Thursday night was a serious matter, it's important to me that I think things through and take care of my feelings"

FFw  "What will your kids think about missing church... what kind of example are you setting... "

ff  "Ohh goodness... well... I can explain it to them if you want, but I think it's a good example to the thoughtful vice react... ."  pause "let me know if you want me to say anything to them... "  (she didn't respond I dropped it)

ffw  "you wanted to go to counseling again and now you won't even go to church with me"

ff "exactly the kind of thing to think through... .and mixed message to avoid"  (neither agreeing or disagreeing... or debating what I had said previously)

ffw "I'm worried about you... .you should consider stopping seeing your psychologist"

ff "I'll consider it... ."

(note... this is all still a snuggle)

ffw "It was her... it was your P that said BC was unethical... wasn't it"

ff  "To be crystal clear... .I don't think P has ever said that.  (I then name the national director of the organization "governing" BC).  He is the one that said BC's conduct was unethical.  Should we go forward, you will hear it directly from him, since there is such confusion regarding attribution)

a bit of a long pause... .I swear I could see her trying to work out the "chess pieces" in her head and getting frustrated

she switches gears

ffw  "I don't even know why we are married.  We are like roommates with benefits"  I lightly squeeze her... lightly kiss her shoulder (imagine spoon position)

one or two other things to try to be ominous about the end of our relationship.

Then you can kind of see her "pick up another tool"

ffw "So your punishing me for my mistake... ."  (and some other stuff like that)

ff  "let's not debate motivations.  I'll think things through this morning"

she switches again.

ffw "  I like this church because they "want to serve God"... and they really do that... ."

ff "I like that too... ."

ffw  some  then why this and why that... (none of which i really believe)


ff  "All good questions for me to think through... .(pause)... .really good questions... "

there is a pause as I see her "considering her chess pieces again" and she goes back to

ffw  "how is it you dragged me to a meeting to go back to counseling and now you won't even go to church with me...  You are so confusing... ."

(pause)

ff  "ffw... .I would like to counsel and work on us coming closer as a couple... . I want to make sure that is a situation that you feel comfortable in and a situation I feel comfortable it... ."

BANG... . that set it off... .(I'd be interested in your thoughts as to why... ."

She leaps out of bed and stomps into the bathroom...

"All I did is make a mistake and now you are going to make me leave the church.  All because I wouldn't agree BC is a big and horrible person... ."  there is some more general ranting about "I can't believe this... ."  "ohh great... ." but no other real "content".

The huffing seemed to be dying out in the next room... .I couldn't for the life of me figure any reason to say anything, so I left the huff slowly dying out and went to get kids ready.

She emerges 30 min later.  Was polite... pleasant... light peck for me and off she went to church with kids (minus sick one... .recovering from flu)

It felt weird to "watch" her pick up a tool... try it... .pick up another... .try it...  

Thoughts... ?.now... .on to the list making.

FF

On "religious abuse"... .it's obviously going on in my r/s.  Perhaps "religious manipulation" is a better word.

I'm sure on some level my faith or "view" has taken some dings.  I'm sure you guys would agree I have an opinion or two about things.  As I've gotten older I think the truism

"I care a great deal more about far fewer things."

and

"I'm more sure about far fewer things... "

I likely need to return to this thought... .after my mornings list making... .but I would more accurately say my "practice of my belief" has taken a hit, while the underlying faith has not.  (even if it had not been for BC... this church is "not my cup of tea"... .more of a "tone" thing vice a "doctrine of faith thing".  I don't think anything they "believe" is wrong... .I have issues with how the "practice" that belief.)

Events of the past few years have actually "deepened" my belief.  

I'm more much in a "relational" view of God and Christ and much more accepting that many people can have a different relationship with the same person... .or the same God.  Just because I "get along" with another person or God doesn't mean that others have to share that view.

Sure... I may be sad for others and I may think "they would be better off if... .", yet I understand, respect and would like to appreciate differences.  (uh oh... FF getting on soapbox)

Looking around the debate in this country over the past few years... .and looking at my own relationships have really taught me that "embracing" differences is so critical.  Are there some differences that should be "judged"... .sure... but really... those are pretty few and far between.  

FF

Take out your responses and look at this from the viewpoint of her using what he knows has worked in the past to get what she wants. You have changed your responses to them, but she only knows to do what she knows has worked. This is what happens when one person changes- it isn't a bad thing, but the other person has not adjusted to the changes yet. The hope is that they will learn new tools or new ways to relate as well.

Comments in capitals, tools in bold

FIRST ATTEMPT : SEX

After a bit she asks me why I never want to snuggle anymore.    

She tried to accuse me of confusing her... .

She wanted to know where this was coming from  

FFw  "What will your kids think about  missing church what kind of example are you setting... "

ffw  "you wanted to go to counseling again and now you won't even go to church with me"

ffw "I'm worried about you... .you should consider stopping seeing your psychologist"



ffw "It was her... it was your P that said BC was unethical... wasn't it"


I swear I could see her trying to work out the "chess pieces" in her head and getting frustrated

she switches gears

ffw  "I don't even know why we are married.  We are like roommates with benefits"

one or two other things to try to be ominous about the end of our relationship.

Then you can kind of see her "pick up another tool"

ffw "So your punishing me for my mistake... ."  (and some other stuff like that)

VICTIM POSITION


she switches again.

ffw "  I like this church because they "want to serve God"... and they really do that... ."


 I see her "considering her chess pieces again" and she goes back to

ffw  "how is it you dragged me to a meeting (VICTIM) to go back to counseling and now you won't even go to church with me (VICTIM)...  You are so confusing... ."



BANG... .  that set it off... .(I'd be interested in your thoughts as to why... ."

NONE OF THE TOOLS ARE WORKING- SO THERE IS ONE MORE- PLUS SHE MUST BE FRUSTRATED TOO


She leaps out of bed and stomps into the bathroom...

VICTIM: "All I did is make a mistake and now you are going to make me leave the church.  All because I wouldn't agree BC is a big and horrible person... ."  there is some more general ranting about "I can't believe this... ."  "ohh great... ." but no other real "content".

She emerges 30 min later.  Was polite... pleasant... light peck for me and off she went to church with kids (minus sick one... .recovering from flu)

It felt weird to "watch" her pick up a tool... try it... .pick up another... .try it...  YES IT FEELS WEIRD WHEN WE SEE IT THIS WAY

Thanks so much for the analysis and thoughts... .it helps me "focus" more.  I was generally thinking in same direction.

You guys remember me... I used to not understand the drama thing at all... or perhaps not think it was "that big of a deal"

I suspect I'm "just beginning" to understand the drama triangle... .I do consciously think about "what position I may be perceived as taking"

Anyway... thanks...

Others... .keep comments coming...


FF

happy to have the conversation with you FF



I wasn't so much thinking of a pros and cons list as I was a list of "wants/needs/likes" as opposed to "likely to receive."

I see a pulmonologist often.   the second thing they do when I go in, is give me a hit of albuterol, which makes me spacey and hyper.   I don't need anyone to go with me.   But I admit I like it when someone does.   It's just ~~easier~~ on me.   I don't stress about driving or misunderstanding something.   On my list "occasional support with pulmonologist"   would be high up on the page.


Right.   Nobody here is shocked.    Since Notwendy likes the phrase I will use it again.   This was the needs entitlement war, battle number 972.

Her needs must come first.   Almost always.    It's the only way she feels safe, secure and comfortable.    Your needs can come first if they align with hers.   If they don't align with hers then they are threatening. or annoying.       



well yes of course she did.    and oh yeah it feels weird to watch the maladaptive tools in action.   who was it that said that basically any personality disorder is a deficit of life skills?   she is trying to get the relationship back on a footing that she is comfortable with,  one she understand,   one that matches her perceptions of things.   she is trying to establish the "one up" position of control not because she is mean or mad but because she likes it better there.

she is blame shifting and responsibility shifting... ."you are confusing me"  versus "I don't understand"
she is attempting to manipulate your actions... ."go to church = good example",   "quit P = my opinions are more important".


Low distress tolerance.   this conversation has been going on for a while.  she is fatigued with it.    "working on coming closer as a couple" is going to sound like rejection and criticism to her.   I actually don't think you could have said it any better but it is still going to sound like criticism to her.   and... .BANG I am angry and you are jerk still leaves her (in her mind, and probably not consciously) in control of the relationship.   

Being angry puts her back in a place of familiarity for her.  Notwendy called it the victim position and I agree but I also see it as entrenched in a position which gives the illusion of power.    Refusing to compromise, refusing to understand,  refusing to accept can feel very reassuring.

my two cents
'ducks

I will add that she's switching between the persecutor and victim role.

Over the past several months, I've been able to detach from conversations with my h enough to recognize the "bait" that he is casting and not to bite. This is hugely annoying to him because he doesn't know a different way - and I'm not getting off track on the things that are important.

Anger is a power emotion. Indicating that you might not be comfortable with the bc and/or the church and in her world, that means that she might have to give up that weapon.

OK, I'm gonna step in it, FF. I know you can handle it.

It seems like you really don't like this church that your wife favors. So why do you continue to go there? And your children are being indoctrinated by some practices there that you seemingly don't approve of. How about finding a church that is compatible with your belief system and let the kids decide which fits them the best? (I know you've done that before. And I know the ideal is to have the whole family be in unison. But that's obviously not happening with your wife anyway and you're putting up with something that really is not who you are.)

This church has several "ministries"  multiple campuses... .multiple services.

You guys know me... .executive organizational type... .so when I say they have the best organized children's ministry... .it's an honest evaluation.
 
It really helps me with their Christian education.  They do really well "interfacing" with parents that want to be involved and making sure parents know what was taught and what will be taught so that when I "design" the weeks devotionals I can make sure the is continuity and we are "on the same track".

If it "was just me", I would not pick this church, but I would not "separate from this church" based on their practice and/or belief (outside their counseling ministry).

I'm not defending the church... .but there are well thought out and proved by experience reasons for going there.

Unfortunately... .the same could be said for reasons to leave the church.  I'm a "structured decision maker"... .and if I "had to decide right now"... .I doubt we will be attending the church in a few months.

But I don't have to decide right now.

My wife understands that attending this church is "on the table" or "at risk"... .it clearly freaks her out.

If that shifts her willingness to compromise... .perhaps.  (Yeah... I know I won't get the full compromise... .but I'll take that into account in decision making)

However... .Cat... .back to the question.  It's one that I did quite a bit of writing about and list making on Sunday morning.

This is a conversation to keep having... .please keep asking.

FF

So... .I also am a "metric based decision maker"

This morning blood pressure was 110/76. 

Thursday night was the last big "relationship stressor"

We all know that the reason my BP was high on Friday morning... .and low this morning is distance from the stressor.

FF

The decision based on the kids' needs is not unusual. Churches can vary in their educational focus and I know parents who will send their kids to a school program of another denomination on the basis of structure, safety, education so long as the basics of what is being taught is not incompatible with what they wish their kids to know.

I have even known parents to choose a church that their teens have several friends at- as the teens are more likely to be involved if they have a good teen program and friends.

Although religious teachings have an impact, kids are far more influenced by what they experience at home.


If the kids are picking up the foundation of what you want them to know, the church is probably fine. It is in the way it serves to handle issues in your marriage that may not be working for you.

I am positive of this... .100% positive.

I personally have a number of relationships there that I value... .as do my children.


FF

I like to post ideas outside the general consensus on the boards to give people something to consider.  In this case, it seems like the underlying proposition is you need to divorce your wife, it is for your health!  I would like to counter that thinking in 2 ways:

1.  Married men live longer than divorced or single men.  While she may be robbing you of years of life with her BPD behavior, marriage also adds years of life in other ways as well.  If you remove her from the equation, you will have new health challenges to combat like loneliness.

2.  We are all mortal.  While it is certainly rational to make decisions to prolong your life, I also think a certain level of acceptance is needed that we can't control everything and some things outside our control may cause us to die earlier and that is ok too.  Taking relationally destructive actions to try and add a couple more years of life is probably going to be counterproductive due to #1 above anyway.

The above 2 doesn't mean that you shouldn't look for ways to reduce stress in your life and to enlist your wife's assistance in the endeavor.  I just caution you on making nuclear decisions in an effort to "save your health."  I also think you need to consider how your decisions affect your wife.  Just as you don't want to walk on eggshells with her, she shouldn't have to walk around eggshells around you either.  She needs to be able to disagree with you.  The goal is to find more healthy ways to channel it so it is less stressful for you.

One question I have for you.  I think stress is usually caused by 2 things.  Currently feeling pain, and the fear of future pain.  What is the source of your stress?

For my girls, my h's church was kind of neutral, and they were at least comfortable with it. The people were nice and took an interest in them. But, the new pastor was more of a "lord it over" leader and would regularly preach against the people outside the church. It's a very familiar environment to h because he grew up in that kind of thing. The impact on our family life and marriage was very negative with h becoming more entrenched and going back on the agreements that we had made after talking to the pastor. Eventually, my older daughter decided to stop going to church because it was too upsetting to her to hear what was going on there and see how the situation at home became worse and threatened her education. Both the girls could see the hypocrisy in my h. My h wasn't taking our younger daughter to church with him, so I took her to a new church. She likes this one much better.

Like you, I'm very concerned and involved in my kids spiritual growth. It's hard to leave the relationships that we have developed, but the new environment has allowed a greater vulnerability and deeper relationship because that is what is modeled in the pastor.

Personally, I think that our lives reflect the things that we really believe rather than what we say we believe. For instance, my h's pastor says to others that he thinks of himself as a CEO, but he says he is not accountable to his board. When I talked with him privately, he said that he thought of himself as a despot (king). This seems more in alignment with how he is behaving. So, our practice matters, and we can't easily separate doctrine or belief from our actions. The practice within a church environment is also an indication of what is being taught.

What is your church teaching through their practice and does it really line up with scripture?

I'm wanting to dig into the possible options for "something" to change.

1. FFw could change and stop having BPD episodes that stress you. Uhm... .NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Perhaps a little improvement, but it will be on-and-off. You cannot count on this saving you or even helping you.

2. You could remove the source of the stress (FFw) from your life.

Err... .not going to solve *this* problem soon enough. Divorce is incredibly stressful, even if it isn't a high conflict one. (unlikely!) Further, if you did somehow quickly and cleanly divorce or simply move out, you would still have to interact with FFexw in order to have time with your children, and I cannot imagine you giving that up.

So... .effectively... .NOT GOING TO HELP, at least for a long time if you choose this one.

3. What changes is that your health deteriorates much further due to long-term stress. (May happen... .but obviously not your plan!)

4. Change how your body responds to your wife's BPD episodes, so it isn't as damaging to you.

Do you see any other options? Or different conclusions on how they would go?

A very brief answer for GK.

The quickest pathway to "something" is for me to realize that I have no tolerance for BPD crazy and construct boundaries appropriately.

I know the subjects that lead to this and on many I've had a habit of saying "I'll discuss that in a therapist office... let me know when you can go" (or something to that effect), then I walk out while she rants... or does whatever.

This will be a little improvement and likely will modify her behavior a bit more. 

All of that is baby steps.

It appears it takes 3-4 days for my BP to recover.  I'll post some readings later, I've been very pleased with my last few.

My wife is frustrated her other tools aren't working and has been trying to win me over with sex, backrubs and attention... .(major pull signals).

I understand it for what it is... .and I'm going along, yet with some resistance.

More later.

FF

|iiii Well that is a good sign. If you can keep episodes (that you react badly to!) down to less than one per week, you'll be spending most of your time with that at a healthy level then.

Seems kinda achievable  :)

Formflier,

I have been reading through your post here,

You certainly have a lot on your plate, high blood pressure is something I too have to deal with, along with a few other aliments that come from older age, and spending half my life in the service, .and the BPD behaviors certainly do not contribute anything positive to this condition/situation,

Both of us served many years in the service, and I do remember the retirement discharge physical, when I was told "you have hyper tension, were you aware of this?"... .yeah, I was, but I made it to retirement anyways, the old salts used to say, you have to make it to ten years past retirement, and then you should be alright, and be able to successfully function health wise as a civilian again, well I got three years to go.

Like I said, you have a lot going on in your life it sounds, wife, children, and just daily life, which never stops, .so take care of yourself, and if you need to, follow your own advice, and go for a walk, or out for coffee, but please take your meds, and keep close eye on the pressure gauge my friend... .we all have many years left in us, even though we struggle in this lot of life we have been dealt.

Keep posting, and we'll keep reading,

Red5

It's the hypertension that worries me most about my DH's health, and his developed over a 33 year marriage to the uNPD/BPD now-ex. I think he managed it with the activity and exercise required as an infantry officer, but other health problems stemming from the infantry eventually interfered with the 10k and marathon running that kept his heart health okay.

I don't feel guilty at all when I ask him to back off one of the adult children issues that involves his ex... .I can literally see him start to flush.

I think a high level of reflection might be required in a daily basis.

Again, triage. The most important thing is your health, FF. What activities, hobbies, entertainments, distractions, etc. can you do to nourish your soul and allow your body to unwind and relax?

I know you've got a lot on your plate, but you desperately need some "ME" time too!