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I’m in a really low place right now. This happens once in a while. This time it feels deeper and more intense. I don’t know what to do.

A few weeks ago things really shifted with my wife. It was around mid December. We spent a weekend in the city, made love, and it was good. But it seems like as soon as we got home, things took a very cold turn. Ever since, she has detached herself more and more from me each day.

From this new, detached position, my wife has been capable of being much more hurtful in the things she says and does. I’ve always walked on eggshells but this is a whole new level. In the past I’ve sat through the hurtful rage because I knew that eventually things would subside. Maybe she’d apologize (but really not so much in the past year or two),  but at the very least she’d find some reason to reconcile somewhat and at least we’d reconnect.

Now, the rages don’t last long. I step on an eggshell, she says “you’ve hurt me for the last time. I don’t want you around!” I say “fine, I’ll leave.” Cool down. I text her “can’t we work this out?” She says “No, go to hell. Leave me alone.”

I probably shouldn’t have sat through rages in the past, I admit that. And I certainly shouldn’t have made so many concessions and given up so many parts of myself, either. But now, I find myself wishing we could go back to even the old pattern, because at least I wouldn’t feel so damn alone like I do now.

The healthy part of me knows someday I’ll get through this. It’s probably also going to be better in the long run if things continue on this course and we end up separated or divorced. But I feel pretty hurt and alone right now. And beyond that, I feel anxious and confused about how to bring things to a conclusion. Thinking though end of marriage scenarios is so hard. More hurt. More alone.

To anyone else who has gone through this, my heart truly goes out to you especially.

Daddybear77,

I am so sorry you are at a low point.  Facing the potential loss of a long relationship where you share a child is excruciating.  I wish you weren't having to face this right now.  You can work to make the relationship better.  It might or might not work.  And you can also leave.  You have choices.  It sounds like you have control on timing, which is good.  You need not be in this kind of pain forever.  Life can get better!

I have two thoughts to share from personal experience.  They head in different directions, so this isn't any sort of a plan, just two thoughts.

To lessen the fear and emotional pain of the potential loss of the relationship, imagine yourself a couple of years later, after things have leveled off.  Imagine yourself spending a large amount of time with your daughter in a peaceful home where your parenting is unchallenged.  Imagine, once you've found yourself again, how your unique qualities and the wisdom you've gained over the years would be attractive to a potential mate.  A caring guy like you with a D5 or 6 or 7 is a chick magnet   You know without me saying it that I'm not telling you which direction to go.  I'm a believer in giving "staying" as many chances as possible.  But if it doesn't work out, you will certainly find happiness again.

And back to the current relationship... .you mentioned texting your wife to ask if you can work things out.  In the language of my marriage, this tactic is doomed.  For someone who desperately needs control, by posing that question, you've given her a chance to stay in control -- you've given it to her on a silver platter.  And she cannot stop herself from taking it.  What has worked for me is to carefully play the middle.  If I am at work, I finish the work day without contacting her for any emotional reasons.  But if we have family business, I don't ignore her.  At home, I remain around but I get busy with a daughter, a chore, or a project.  I am not abandoning, and I am not chasing.  My tone is slightly warmer than neutral. Usually she reaches out eventually.  It can be the same day, or a day or two later.  Sometimes it's overt.  Sometimes she actually says something not nice, but less not nice than the last few things she said.  An opening appears.  Then I lean in with warmth and we do better for a while.  That is the way it has gone for us, at least.

WW

I think where a partner remains faithful (no other man or women involved) then it is worth having a good crack at working on this marriage.  BPD marriages are wild to say the least, feral on one side, mad passionate on the other, if a bit hollow on occasion.  You will not be able to get true oneness with your wife... .and if so, not for very long.  You need to keep a very tidy house for one, if it is not her doing the tidying, you need to.  Absolutely imperative. It will help her keep her thoughts in much better order.  She will also need a great deal of your time and you will need to be careful with intimacy particularly after intimacy, to not allow her to think she might have been used, even slightly.  Sorry but rolling over and nodding off after is not on the books.  You are going to have to rub her back, play with her hair, anything that says I love you and not just for sex.  She will shake you off sometimes, that is fine, then you have been given your get out of jail free card for the night.  Otherwise, be there for her and calm her down in the same manner as you wound her up, if you get my drift.  This is all part of countering the abuse cycle that they most likely went through as a child, loved, then in seconds despised, beaten abused.  It is going to take some work.  I was married for 22 years to a BPD, I know knew some of the time (not always) how to make the marriage work.  It will be a hell ride, but can be very rewarding at times.  I have kids too and being the stable one (long run has paid off) as the kids gravitated to me as I learnt to be calm and reasonable.  I am not sure if the passion is important.  On occasion it was worth it as make-up sex was wonderful.  Whether me actually arguing sometimes was beneficial or not, who knows.  I think rolling over makes you less valuable, so you need a back bone, but not too much.

They really elicit strong response from you and there is no getting around that fact, they seem to need some heat or friction in the relationship.  They hate cold calculating, it drives them nuts.  You are also going to need not so much to learn how to step on eggshells, though an important part of the game, but to learn what of her buttons, when pushed, do what.  Now this might be a push ON,  push OFF button or it might be as simple as never push this button or explosion.  They are invariably smart, so are attracted to smart intelligent kind people.  What they lack is self image, in fact they have very little, despite acting very egocentric.  The real self image is non-existent.  They also spend a lot of time criticising themselves inside their own heads too, so these are very complex human beings.  Do they truly love.  Yes... .BUT... .appreciating other's love, that flies out the window very quickly when they start to go silly.  Some times of year are worse than others.  Call them witching months.  If someone had have asked me to guess what month she would run off and do something stupid, I would have said (southern hemisphere winter for me) almost definitely late July or any time in August... .She used to get dreams  nightmares, visions always and certainly SAD, low Vitamin D depression, that time of year too, so would do crazy stuff and would be deeply depressed.  She ended up running off for the last time with a guy in early August, 4 years on won't be coming back this way soon, and I won't be here to pick up the pieces this time around.  Middle age you are going to get a new level of hell as all the childhood stuff starts to come back to roost.  Also sex will die off in the 2nd decade and will be all over the place.  If you get her a proper BPD counseller you might have a chance, but let's just say life is not going to be full of fun without proper help.   Watch out as they are paranoid.  I used to have a policy of speaking to her by phone if another woman shared a car with me, or I was in the office late for work.  Great care is required here, as trust is very easily broken.  I went to golf one morning with my boss,  very early and did not wake her.  She met me on the road at 7am and was going off her tree at me for not knowing where I was.  Very embarrassing, kind of killed my career too, having a nut case unsupportive wife.  My kids... .well I have 5 and it was worth the 22 hell to stay and be with them and now they are all ding pretty well with her at last gone for good.  I think you and the good Lord have a bit of ground to cover, but it is definitely worth staying if you have a child as divorce is just terrible.  If you do separate, then works something out for agreed shared custody.  You will find you get more of your daughter's time,  as she will gravitate toward you if you are loving kind and steady.   My heart goes out to you.  God bless you and know we here, think of you and our prayers are surely not in vane as there is always a way and there is much good that can be generated, but not without a lot of mindfulness and much work.
Regards, Go

Hi DaddyBear,

I can't be as much of a presence here for the time being, but didn't want to miss a chance to offer you just a tiny bit of comfort.  I can see how much you love and yearn for this to all work out... .I know the future is uncertain though... .Just want to send some warm thoughts your way and wish you happier times!

take care, more when I can, pearl.

p.s. wow Go you really jumped in here and offered a lot to think about! Please keep posting and sharing!

Hi DB. I was wondering how you were doing after your last post and your wife and MIL were going on a trip. You had plans to see a lawyer- not because you were leaving the relationship- but for information about how this would be handled legally since your wife has been threatening. Yet, we do know that seeking information ( your decision ) and even threatening ( on your wife's part) does not equal deciding to do it or going through with it. Discussing it is not a suggestion to do it- we know that boundary is between you and your wife.

You've really described the feelings of change in a relationship. It is a very honest statement to say you wish to go back to the old pattern. It didn't work well for the two of you- but it has a familiarity to it and familiarity is comforting. A heated argument is still attention- a highly emotional focus on the other person. It is emotionally hurtful but there is an odd pleasure in it. No, I am not a masochist, but I felt the same sort of feeling during these heated emotional exchanges with my H and wondered about it. Why do I feel this? The situation is yukky.

I tend to get interested in what I am doing. It might be a good book, or a project, or a topic I am interested in learning about. It is during these times that my H would say something emotionally provoking to me and we were off to the races in an argument both of us seemingly unable to resist the trigger. Then a MC began to call it drama bait. These highly emotional exchanges, even though unpleasant, were still times we were engaged with each other. For him, I noticed he would be calm for a while, then anger and frustration would build up- we'd have an argument, he'd then feel calm- the anger was out and we would get along for a while. This appeared like a cycle. So why was I drawn to participate in it too. It must have done something for me as well.

Negative attention is better than no attention. and in a relationship that has difficulty - we will take any attention over no attention ( detachment).  In addition, we can become literally addicted to the drama of a high/low, push/pull intense relationship. In heated and intense moments, we have neurotransmitters rushing in our systems and lots of adrenaline. These are the same chemicals that are stimulated by drugs. We may "drama bait" - trigger the other person to gain a "fix" during times of calm or when the other person seems busy. Soon, I began to resist being triggered into these arguments when I recognized the feeling of being triggered and now hard it was to resist it.

DB, you have been doing a lot of reading and working on some changes with yourself- changes that you believe are for the better. When you do this, you are changing the patterns in your relationship- also hopefully for the better, but that is an unknown. You do have the choice of going back to doing what you were doing- and getting the same result. You know the definition of insanity- doing the same thing and wanting a different result. But to get something different, you have to do something different, and that involves some trial and error. When two people are in dysfunctional patterns, even if the patterns are not emotionally healthy ones- they feel a sense of familiarity and comfort. When one person changes, both people then feel a sense of discomfort. Your wife isn't comfortable now, and neither are you. If you stand firm in your direction for positive change- your wife has a choice- to accept the new situation or to leave it. Consider the extinction burst. You have a new set of relationship tools. She hasn't learned new ones yet. If she's been using a "hammer" and it works ( threats, anger, detachment) then it makes sense she's going to keep doing what she only knows has worked, until she gets the message that it doesn't. Then she may try something else but you don't know what and that is scary. Just like you, she may be feeling out of balance and scared right now and this is how she projects it. But - your feelings are yours to manage and hers are hers. She probably isn't used to managing her own feelings- but it is a gift to her to let her learn, just like you need to do with D4 when she pitches a fit. You don't want to raise D4 to not know how to manage her own feelings- so why would you take this skill from your wife?

Self care is key for you right now. You are feeling sad and scared. It makes sense. Be good to yourself. You can always go back to your old patterns- but they were at a high cost for you. Or you can persist on this path that is unknown, scary and not always comfortable to change the patterns you two are in.  You did mention seeking out a T. This board is helpful but the support and guidance of a T during this time is very helpful. I am glad that I worked with one. When things got scary and uncomfortable, I knew she was still guiding with expertise. So did my 12 step co-dependency sponsor- and that was at no charge if finances are a concern. Having people to support you face to face through your own growth may make a difference for you.

It sounds as if the winds are changing.

You mentioned that your wife is working on a graduate degree. Is she close to finishing her grad work, and do you think her coldness is connected to plans she has made for finishing the degree?

NW hit on a key point--the difference between no attention and negative attention.

Your wife hasn't detached. That would be way less painful (but also less familiar) than what she's doing.

She is giving you the silent treatment or withholding emotional connection from you to hurt you, at least when she's not raging/attacking/threatening divorce... .because she is still VERY involved in the dysfunctional dance with you. She isn't detached.

She has just changed her style of manipulating/controlling you. Perhaps because her old style wasn't working as well as it used to?

Also, DB himself is not reacting as the W is used to - so she WILL change her reactions as he changes his.  Sadly, all human change seems to go along a pendulum effect.  We swing wildly back and forth looking for the middle.  I start a diet, I swing to being super conscious about my choices, exercising, and often being a little too hardcore to maintain.  Then I aim for middle and swing too far into comfort eating and skipping the workouts.  Eventually, I hope to swing to the middle, without overshooting.  You can see this in societal changes as well - we swing wildly from pole to pole, eventually, somethings settle the hell down and stick to a moderate middle, but it takes time to get there.

Also, it's normal to feel a little off kilter as things start to change.  Yes, the old pattern is at least known, and the Devil we know is less scary than one we don't.  I felt very wrong-footed when H's patterns started to change.  I did not know how to react to his new "normal" at times, and this was not even about just BAD behavior.  He started actually expressing affection - I'd been so closed off for my protection, I did not know how to take that.  Our arguing styles had to change, adapt, and things I could take changed and I had to learn to radically accept or disengage from new behaviors that I could see were still BPD-based. 

I agree with Grey Kitty and many other posters - if the W was disengaged, she'd not try to hurt you still.  You are still a part of her hat she needs to make feel as bad as she feels.  She's just trying out new methods to do it, as the old ones don't seem to be getting the response she is used to. 

And while we're not able to talk to you in RL, we're here - you're not alone.  I hope that helps somewhat.  Sending some good electron vibes and well wishes.  Change is good with BPD - it means you shook things up enough to make a difference.  Keep going, and maybe you can get to a good place together. 

Hey everyone - thank you so much for the replies. I’ve been following each of your responses as they come in but it’s been a tough day or two.

First of all, GK and others, you’re exactly right. This isn’t detachment. I should have realized that. I think what I felt was my own loneliness creep in, and since my wife’s reaction was different, I mistook it for “detached.” The fact is, she’s started several arguments in more or less the same way she always has, and I’ve learned it’s mostly an effort to settle herself, usually at night.

What’s happening right now is that my wife is saying she wants a separation / divorce so she can go her own way and do her own thing. What I’m interpreting this to mean is that she just doesn’t want the hassles of being married any more. Those are my words. I feel like just standing in front of her and saying “What the heck?” We created this life together, had a child, bought a home, done all these things together and now you’ve “grown apart?”

The one thing that rings true to me, though, is that she feels controlled by me. I can see that. I can see how in my desperate attempts to keep things peaceful and moving along on track, I’ve done it through a lot of manipulation and control. That’s not good and I don’t like that I’ve done that. But that doesn’t mean you walk away from someone and scrap your life because of it!

The hardest thing I think about right now is, where am I going to draw my lines? What are my boundaries? If she’s determined to leave, what is my limit in terms of how we live as separated married people? How do we live divorced if that happens?

And the biggest question of all... .

Is there anything, at this point, that could really save this train wreck of a relationship?

DB, my H has not ever talked about divorce, so I have not been in this situation with him. But I have observed this with my mother, so perhaps this insight will help you. There were many threats, but none resulted in divorce.

Think of the Skinner box, really. People are not lab rats, but the same behaviors with reinforcement apply to humans too. When the rat pushes the button and gets a treat, he keeps pushing the button. When the button doesn't work- he pushes harder. If he gets the treat eventually- it is intermittent reinforcement and this is the strongest reinforcement of all. I think this is replicated in relationships when people try to have a boundary, the other person pushes harder and eventually gets what they want. The lesson is- if I push harder - I will get what I want- and this drives the extinction burst.

Your wife isn't getting the usual pattern. So she pushes harder- often this got her what she wanted. Well- now she is pushing some more- and what seems to work for her is the D word. It scares you and upsets you. She may or may not mean it, but my hunch is that if the little things didn't work for her, time to bring out the big thing- the D word.

The most ineffective thing to do is the intermittent reinforcement and give in. It will teach her that the D word works and people use what works for them.

The problem to tackle isn't her feelings. It is yours. Nobody knows what she wants to do ( and she may not either). What you are feeling is your own fears and anxiety at the unknown.

A good acronym for fear is False Evidence Appearing Real. What if she leaves? It won't be easy- it will be sad and difficult- but you will survive it if she does. It isn't something impossible to do. You may not want to do it  but if it happened you would be able to manage it because people do. Your wife has not worked for a while, she is financially and emotionally dependent on you- and leaving you won't be easy for her either.

My bet is that this is just a threat, and yet, she is free to make her own choices. If she wanted to leave, you could not stop her. You can't really control her. Is there anything that can save your marriage? I don't know. She has choices too no matter what you want.

The only boundaries you have are about what you would do. So I imagine she says " I want a divorce" what is there to say besides "honey, I understand what you are saying, and although I feel sad, I know you can make your own decision about that" and then " This is too serious to discuss without the help of a professional- can we seek out someone to help us" and then not discuss it. I think it is too volatile a topic to discuss without help- especially between two people involved in drama.

She may or may not take it further, but you can hold a boundary that you wish to not discuss this without a third party- and hold to that.

If she is determined to leave, she is already gone, and there is nothing you can do about it. Please note... .ending a relationship is unique in that unlike pretty much everthing else in the r/s it can be decided by exactly one person. When either of you decides it is done, it is done!

In other words, you cannot enforce any boundaries to keep her there.

That said... .her talk of divorce or separation is likely more of a threat to manipulate you than real action toward ending your marriage. Or that if she does really feel like ending your marriage, the feeling passes quickly enough that she doesn't act on it.


I think the two of you could stay (perhaps unhappily) married for a long time. Is that what you mean, or do you mean some level of improvement beyond not divorcing?

Hi DB,

I think Notwendy's advice is spot on.  My wife continually made divorce threats, because she knew it scared me, and she knew my faithfulness and commitment meant that she could make those threats with impunity -- I would do whatever it took to keep us together.  My fear about even risking ending the relationship kept me from enacting boundaries and doing so many of the things I should have been doing over the years.  In order to save the relationship, you absolutely must make peace with the possibility that it could end.  Unless you are willing to rock the boat, the status quo will continue, and could continue for another decade or two.

Your observation that you may be controlling too much offers an opportunity.  If you are genuinely sure about this (in other words, you're confident she didn't just talk you into it), you could validate her there and work on improvements.

Have I recommended "Boundaries," by Cloud and Townsend yet?  When I started reading it, I expected to be thinking mostly about my boundaries and how to protect them.  But I was surprised to find that I was learning just as much about respecting other people's boundaries, including my wife's.  I learned that by taking on her work, like being responsible for keeping her happy no matter what (or at least trying) I was not helping things at all.  In this current context, where you're realizing you may be in your wife's sandbox too much, and you feel like you've given up too much of yourself, getting really serious about becoming skilled with boundaries might be a good place to focus your energy.  You'll have to endure some discomfort, some extinction bursts, some perceived threats to the relationship, but you'll be able to stop the shrinking of your own self, and stop getting in the way of her owning her own stuff (that doesn't mean she'll own it, but at least you won't be guilty of blocking her).

Try to accept the fact that the relationship could go either way.  If you do the boundary work, it will move you forward to a healthier place, either together or apart.  If you don't do the boundary work, you're signing up for more of the same.

On the topic of giving up yourself, and your own boundaries, where is the greatest pain now?  How are you doing on the basics -- sleeping undisturbed, being allowed to focus on work when appropriate, and reasonable boundaries around phone/text communications?  If you could start by taking back a small part of your life with a better boundary, what might you pick?

WW

After 26 years and now passing through divorce to my BPD wife, let me say these are the few things I either regret or strongly do not regret doing. 
 
1) Not complimenting her in front of other people expressing how attractive she is and how lucky I was at the time.  Particularly when other men were clucking over their women.  Something she desperately needed, I likely did not supply, though despite this was trying to supply a tonne of what I thought was valuable stuff, she did not appreciate for nearly so long.  Being arrogant about my clear virtues did not win any favours, in fact because I had some and she did not, it really made for some friction.  She already knows how good you are, her problem is her own self belief which is non-existent or grossly distorted by interaction with abusive people.

2) I bought her a $13,000 engagement ring, about a dozen years too late, but it still made little difference... .or did it?  I walked into our local charcoal chicken place and one staff member said.  I am trying to piece together who is your wife.  I gave all the basic stuff hair colour and the like, fair skin, yada yada and then another lady looks over and says.  You know her... .the one with the Rock!  (aka big diamond ring).  Oh... .said the other lady.  I know who your wife is now.  I came home with chicken et al for dinner and told my wife the story and she had a really good laugh.  It made her feel very important something she did not feel for many years in our early marriage, but it is still no substitute for one's own individually  developed real self image.

3) Sex it was very important.  Toward our last few months together, I was utterly sick of the abuse and just would not go near her.  I simply did it to punish her as I was by that point developing some self respect at last.  In hind sight a pretty ___ty thing to do in any marriage good or bad.  Within a month or two she soon found a substitute and is with him now.  That said she found substitutes prior, (the grass is greener BS) but at the end this was simplistically a middle aged woman at her sexual peak... .negligable conscious, and sex very important to her... .and many others her age and younger too.   I had my fill of the marriage and at that point was then rather happy to see the last of her... .I was arrogant and thought she would come home sooner or later with her tail between her legs at last.   Bad decision/good decision?  It was a disaster.  It was like throwing marbles at nitro, it was going to go off sooner or later with that sort of treatment.

Ask me in two years time from now my opinion.  I miss her terribly emotionally.  Psychologically I am so glad to be free and my kids are, 3 years on, ecstatic to no longer have to put up with the abuse.  They sit at dinner occasionally and tell jokes about some of Moms worst moments and they all say, thank goodness it found an end.  They suffered as did I.  I am glad they are out of it, but many broken families kids find themselves at the mercy of a very distorting and toxic person in their life, without the balanced person, the significantly more sane partner, giving them full protection.  They have all healed and now grown into far better balanced adults.  No arguments, no fights, just lots of hugs and cuddles both during the hell and now just the same as the hell is long gone.

Still these BPD people, leave a BIG void in ones life... .massive. Fortunately I have all the kids and most are near fully grown now, but still I miss my BPD/w terribly.  I have no right though, the kids deserved better.  Unlikely anybody will replace her, very unique talented person.  I do miss her friendship, but I don't miss be mind screwed every moment I stepped into the house and made to feel like dirt for being a decent honest hard working person.   I look forward should the heaven so smile and with not a little effort from myself, to finding someone that will love me and help me with my flaws to find the best in me, not by berating or abuse, but by genuine love and concern.  I hope too to serve her and love her without measure and remind her how precious she is to all those in her life not just me.

4)  Travelling away.  I made a good decision and gave up a job that required a lot of international and interstate travel.  It likely gave the marriage 10 or 15 years more than it would have otherwise achieved, and with it 2 more beautiful children.

5) I most regret not borrowing the money on the sly even and insisting she see a top class professional psychologist or psychiatrist, with expertise in BPD.   No doubt I too, could have done with some counselling too, by then with some dependent personality disorder help perhaps.  Let me suggest that is the hole here we are all trying to bridge with being finely attuned to serving our master or mistress as the case might be.  I commend to you building a principle centred life. When you look back, these guideposts, will help you retain your centre and you will be doing a lot less second guessing of yourself.  As you can see.  There is not a lot of self whipping here.  No this issue sits squarely upon my partner with BPD. I was guided by higher laws and for the more part did my human best to stay on track.  I look back on my younger self and with pride look at what was achieved under horrific head winds at times.  Given passage of time, you will get shelled out, but not before gaining some serious self respect if you learn to be principle driven.  I don't look back at my marriage as failure, but as a triumph that with brutal effort managed to hold things together as long as I did.   Given a half normal person and bit of work on my own key flaws as consequence of this hell, I actually feel given I am wise enough to not jump back into hell again, I might just end up with a really happy marriage again one day, but then again, I would hope to now recognise that one can with such arrogance easily spit again in the sky.   

6) Setting boundaries.  I think we too need to say (enough on occasion) We have to be willing to risk or lose substantially if not all, in order to drive the relationship in the right direction.  Otherwise the level of hell just begins to multiply and you end up utterly shelled out, financially, emotionally and utterly divorced from who you once were. Then with nothing left to give an ever more greedy person with each year.  At last a divorce the thing she now deeply craves, to leave behind you the now skeleton for a less broken real someone else and now you  are utterly alone entirely.  Ruthless.  Be passionate, be demonstrative, be a man. Take the game up to her.  Let's face it at this point who is frightened of a BPD, you have had the worst of them, so what is to fear.  Rattle the cage and win a round or two.
The make up sex is worth it alone LOL.

Now this in its final terminal reentry vehicle stage, a month or two from the detonation of the last and final blast.  Well lets say, I am really struggling presently to get back into my work.  More new hurtful revelations.  The kids are grossly dismayed and all have wiped their hands of my BPD/w. Everything depends on me at present and I am gutted at how low my ex has gone.  While I have every separation Ace in the divorce hole at present re my kids, the emotional battering I am truly struggling to hold things together... .but I will, and I will overcome, but not without a heavy stock whip upon my own tail each morning and self respect to remind myself in the nights... .don't go there dude. Your direction now is clearly away from hell full throttle, so hold our course, each day is going to get a little better... .Let me say 3 weeks on I am coming good again... .but slowly.
 
I hope what I share may make some kind of difference.  Life with a BPD/w or h can be awesome on occasion.  That is what we all miss, the fact we can't have it day after day.  That is the brutal part of such a life, that otherwise makes little sense, given so much is possible to make life truly brilliant.  Do whatever it takes to get this SO in your life, the help they need.
Regards,  Go

GO I enjoyed your description of your kids- and can relate to their sense of relief. My parents did not divorce but I recall the sense of relief I felt moving out for college and away from the drama at home with BPD mom.

You have listed some regrets- or things you would have done differently. But we only know what we know at the moment. You also don't know what the outcome  of any of your "if only's" would work. We know more about BPD now than in my parents' era, but my mother did get the best of psychiatric help at the time. It did not work. Her perspective seems to stay in victim mode. She is not able to look into her own behaviors. I think BPD can be treated but the individual also has to be able to work with the professional and over the years I have seen that my BPD mother could not do this.

You have taken an honest look at the pros and cons of your relationship. Take care of yourself. I think everyone can think of  things they would have done differently but outcomes are not always predictable. I hope you will come to a point of peace with yourself. As to finding someone who will help you with your (perceived ) flaws- I found that we can also help ourselves through counseling. It's a great investment in you even if you don't have a disorder. It's about being you- the best version of you.

DB, you're quiet.  How are you doing?

WW

Wow. I cried when I read this. Thank you so much for asking WW. I had no idea how much I missed being asked if I was OK.

I’m struggling. A lot.

It’s hard to communicate exactly what’s going on, but after paying careful attention to what’s really happening, it’s clear my wife wants a fantasy. She wants all of the benefits of a marriage - financial support, friendship, companionship, someone to share parenting responsibilities with full time. But she wants none of the responsibilities. She doesn’t really want a divorce, but she does want me to move out and sleep somewhere else, come back during the day to take care of all the things I take care of, including parenting, upkeep of the house, pretty much everything other than eat and sleep for her. It’s incredible, really, that someone could expect all of these things while not even offering the basic commitments of a marriage.

To top this all off, in this fantasy scenario where I move out, I am absolutely NOT “allowed” to take my daughter with me out of her sight. If I want to be her parent, I must come to the house and do it here and never take her out of her sight.

I have no idea what to even say or do in a situation like this. Any move against her wishes and it’s immediate threat.

Anyway, that’s the situation as of now. I know I’ll figure it out eventually but thank you so much for asking and everyone for all the support.

DB

You are not alone, we all have needs to feel that somebody cares and I really feel for you in this.

You talk about a fantasy - all the benefits but no responsibility, sounds like some sort of utopia for her, if she got what she wanted though do you think this would really make her happy?

I can relate to your situation and the biggest irony I find is that my partner often talks about commitment - what he really wants is me to commit to maintaining the 'status quo' thus I remain the provider and emotional leader just as long as no practical or emotional support is required of him. Sounds like a Utopia but he is miserable and unhappy all the time.

I am in a different situation - no kids and no actual marriage, as the provider I am also the one who has financial security so despite a lot of work to understand and support him I am starting to question whether I am helping or making the situation worse? Its a slow move to acceptance that maybe this relationship has run its course but a certainty that that i do not want to spend my future 'feeling used' as the resentment would prove harmful for me.

You are in a tough place but as others have said and  am too starting to see this starts with me taking a really realistic view of what is happening and I   really hope that you can work through your fear and work through the pros and cons. 

Ortac

I hate to say it, but in a way, your username says everything she wants from you - a detached father who gives her her every whim but isn't around to judge her or ask anything of her.

She does not want (at this time at least) a life partner to share with, to raise a child with, or to grow old with. 

You've mentioned her mother - what IS her father like? 

And I am not certain, but your D may even be likely a doll for her - sadly many BPD moms like to have Ds to live vicariously through, to remake into little versions of themselves, to "fix" whatever they feel is wrong about the (too fat, make my daughter bulimic, etc.  Not popular enough?  put her in every club and activity regardless of her wishes).  Also, am I wrong, but do you not also have a son?  So she focuses on the D but wanted you to take S with you to move out at one time, right?  Another sign of BPD fixation on redoing herself. 

I am so sorry.  Try to remember it's not a rejection of YOU as a person.  It's a horrible disability making her be like this.  You sound like a person who cares so much you've bent over backward so much to try to give her what she claims she wants and only now is it apparent what she wants is not even real. 

Yeah, I've wondered too... .I've noticed the empty spaces where you don't get back to your own topics... .

Perhaps you've talked yourself out of asking for support here (and elsewhere?) Do you think you should already know the answers, since the situation hasn't really changed much?

I dunno... .but I do know that it is OK to admit that you are lost, hurting, and barely holding it together. 


I know you've thought about this scenario... .and perhaps versions that you would prefer to this hellish fantasy. Did you ever contact a lawyer to figure out what your rights/circumstance would be if there was a separation/divorce/custody dispute?

Knowing how bad it will be/could be should ease your mind--it probably isn't as bad as you fear.

I hope ALL you guys are doing well.  Thanks for all the kind advice to each other and me too.  Each word heals a little more for me on the end game as it where, where as some of you are in the thick of it still.  I have a very old friend, who has past through a very bad divorce to a terribly abusive partner.   She understands.  Speaking with someone that truly 'gets it' can make such a difference.  Thank you all for 'getting it' so well also.  We find each other inspiring and at times we might be a bit too self condemning or second guessing.  To others we know what we say can truly lift and for those under the plow, we are there too, as we go there often ourselves and need you too. 

While my old friend and I only correspond and phone occasionally, there is a lot of healing to be had.  Getting with fairly sane people really helps, you to see how mad the situation really is and come up with better strategies.  You just have to be carefully to not get too close, as that can cause other serious issues, making a difficult problem even more complex... .enough said.  One war at a time OK  :-)
 
Part of me remembers the extreme hot and cold that goes with all this hell on steroids.  I think the absolute lack of responsibility that one's average BPD invests or more accurately fails to invest, just finds me now looking back over time, just utterly head shakingly so.   $%&^ you know phewwww irreconcilable stuff. 

My heart goes out to you all at these times, smack bang in the heat of these moments.  You wonder if you are the problem, and less so they.  Fortunately you have us here saying... .You are not going mad, you are just with someone that is very damaged and very damaging at times (sometimes for extended periods) even as my wife has now become after all these years, sadly a complete disaster, and utterly toxic. 

Once just a complex of loving on the odd more frequent occasion, but for the more part with passage of time, more impossible to know what is going to explode next.   Now she has continued to slide to a sad pitiful state, but perhaps even in this place she might at last have some sort of peace, as she is now forced to deal with her terrible decisions over a lifetime.  One's dedicated perennial kindness, love and always being there for either he or her, may not be the solution required.   That is very, very hard to swallow. 

I suggest her finding now a very abusive, even her nut case father like person is allowing her to get new perspective on an old recurring problem.  That hurts so deeply, a quarter century wasted... .that I could not be there in the end when she heals, but that is not what she needs.  She actually needs someone as self centred as what she is and as like attracts like in this universe, I am able to live with that.
I cannot go to where she is, in her mind.  That is just not the person I am, nor the one I ever wish to become.

I hope in the future to find someone far nearer to who I am and with slow passage of time find a better meeting of the minds.  I know these times just eat you away.  Let me say if you are proactive, you can make positive steps even in your worst hours, even when you are utterly gutted out, your very weakest moments.   

Years ago when I was in the worst place (and trust me I a not in a good place yet)  Some might argue this is the toughest 4 weeks I have had to face, much of them alone (even in company) to face the fact, this is ALL over at last.  But no matter your bad spot... .you will get to glimpse something of the majesty of your very nature and looking back will feel proud of what you have been able to endure. 

That very strength will give you more strength for each iteration more, win or lose and in your weakness, find resolve to hang in, if that is what is required.  It will build amazing strength of character.  If you look now you will see already the foundations are well caste and strong and the upper structure now well on its way to curing to its full measure.  Be still and let it find new strength.  Do not atttempt to claw it down, but be still. 

Find your line and for the more part stick to it.  If you get off track, come back to it again.  Stick to principles, hold yourself to higher account.  They will never lead you astray, for they are fixed and immovable.   They will protect your self esteem from the devil and his or her worst.  So embrace what you to bear, take stock, resolve where necessary, then work your plan, review and then do over, as many times as it needs.  With each step even if it is not a win, then take stock and learn from it.  There are keys and clues everywhere, even in this cacophony of crazy, there is to be found key drivers and means to bring about some order and in time peace will be brokered with each iteration more so, with the passage of time, to your benefit.  Living a good wholesome, honest, kind and decent life pays off in ways those that are abusive will never get to appreciate.
God bless and good luck... .nae good planning all, 
Regards, Go.

Hi DB, I wondered about how you were doing.

Your wife has a disorder and this influences her wants, but she wants what she wants like any other person. We all want what we want, but adults understand what is reasonable and what is not. We weigh and measure our wants along with the cost of indulging those wants.

The difference between your wife's wants being a fantasy or a reality is your decision to do it or not.

You are allowed to hold on to your own ideas of what is reasonable for you to do and what is not.

Your posts sound so sad. I wonder if you have seen a lawyer- not to act on divorce- I know you don't want to do that but to know what your rights are as a parent. Your wife may threaten that you won't see your D, but I don't think she can legally do that. Parents have rights- and it may help you to know what yours are.

I am sorry you are going through this. It is really tough. I hope that posting on this board helps with the isolation

Aww, Notwendy, GK, you guys have been amazing too, and everyone else. I didn't mean to single out anyone or say that one post meant more than another. I can't thank any of you enough for all the compassion and generosity. Posting here is the only thing that really keeps me afloat sometimes. On the one hand that's amazing, but on the other hand, it goes back to something you each shared with me over a year ago - I need to get a support system in place that includes a therapist of some sort, better connections with my family, friends, and yes, even a lawyer.

So, to answer that question - YES I have a lawyer. I found her a couple weeks ago. The initial consultation was amazing. She's the one I'm going to work with going forward. I saw the lawyer because my wife ASKED me to see a lawyer that could create a custody agreement in advance of a divorce. So my wife knows I've consulted with her. That's step 1.

What do the rest of the steps look like? That's the big question.

A few nights ago I sat across from my wife. She asked "Well? Are you going to create the agreement with the terms we discussed?" She wants sole physical custody of our daughter. She wants me to visit her every day, but she wants me to live in a separate apartment. She wants me to voluntarily create an agreement that legally binds me to these terms.

The reason, she says, is that it's the only way she can protect our daughter from my parents.

I asked her, "Are there any other reasons you think that I shouldn't have any overnight parenting time on my own? Your request is pretty far outside the norm from my understanding and based on my consultation."

She said "No, the only other thing that concerns me is your ideas about women, and how they should be kept under your thumb and prevented from getting an education, equal pay, equal rights. But that's something our daughter will realize one day, and she'll hate you and it will be emotionally hard for her, but that's not a reason to limit your access to her now."

I shifted to the topic of divorce itself. It's been a slow walk toward this, but as of a week or two ago she still said she didn't know whether or not she wanted a separation, divorce, or something else.  I asked "Have you decided what you want to do?" She said "I can't stay anymore. On Thanksgiving weekend, you grabbed me around the neck. You've never done that before, but it fits the classic pattern of escalating abuse. You've been emotionally abusive for years. You've driven recklessly with me and our daughter in the car. You've kept me trapped in rooms. You've refused to leave the room when I've asked. I'm frightened to death of the day you snap and really hurt me. I haven't completely made up my mind, but I don't want to be trapped her anymore. I can't breathe. I can't fully live my life and stay married to you."

I listened to all of this. Each item has a grain of truth, but in this strung together list of accusations, they're taken out of context and distorted into something much different than they were in the moment. I did grab my wife the night after Thanksgiving. We were away in a vacation house, with my mother in law and daughter in the next room. We had been fighting (verbally) for about 12 hours straight. She was at me over and over again to admit I was purposely trying to kill her dog. Finally I grabbed her - by the shoulders - trying to look her in the eye to say "PLEASE STOP!" I regret grabbing her more than  anything else on that list, but I don't think any of this makes me a monster or a domestic abuser. Maybe it does. I don't know.

I didn't JADE though. I didn't share any of this with her in the moment. I didn't know what to say. So I just told her I loved her, and that I was sure we could work something out.

---

So with all this on my mind the past few days and weeks, I've been searching and searching for the right answers. Do I go along with her request for custody, and avoid a battle? Do I try and confront the idea that my parents are so dangerous? Would arguing this point with her do anything other than inflame an already explosive situation?

Last night I wrote out an outline of what my wife's custody plan would look like and I sent it to my lawyer. I did it in a way that made it look like it was coming from me, but then I immediately replied back to the lawyer and said disregard, I will call you to discuss. In my heart I really don't think this kind of arrangement is right. But it's so hard to realize that my wife is steadfastly opposed to me having ANY overnight time, and my request will most certainly lead to massive time and expense. In the end, I know I'll win something, maybe half, maybe something slightly less, but certainly something. But in fighting the battle, what will I lose? Will she start to bring up these accusations about abuse? Will the courts listen? I haven't really dived into these questions with my lawyer yet, but I imagine they'll have SOME persuasive influence on how things unfold.

This is where I am right now. I have to start my workday, though, so I have to put this aside for at least a little while.

Thank you, everyone - WW, GK, Notwendy, islime, ortac77, Go, gagirl, pearls. Thank you so much for listening.

DB- one reason people hire lawyers is that they don't often agree on big things like custody and alimony. Each person has his or her lawyer come to the table with his or her wants- and the lawyers hash it out. Your wife may not get what she wants unless you agree to it.

These situations are often so emotionally charged that the two people involved can not discuss them reasonably or without them escalating. If you could have a calm reasonable discussion about these things with your wife, you would not be here on these boards in the first place.

Her reasonings don't hold water. Unless your parents have done something that your D needs protection from, the law won't buy that reason. Someone can accuse anyone in court of anything- and the law is there to come up with a defense and solution.

Her reasoning about education for your D sounds crazy. Surely you don't want that for her. And there is likely no legal proof of this statement being true.

So, IMHO you can tell your lawyer what you want. Your wife can tell hers what she wants and let the lawyers deal with it.

DB, again, we want what we want. I may want to go on a date with George Clooney ,leave the kids with my H, and have him welcome me back with open arms when I come home. I may want to remodel the house and buy all new furniture and have my H not say a thing about the bills. Reality- I may want that date- but I have never met George Clooney and he has a gorgeous wife and that isn't going to happen, and if it did, my H would not be happy about it and my wanting something doesn't make it happen. I could go out and spend a ton of money on furniture- but I can not make my H not say a thing about a surprise bill.

This is an exaggeration but to make the point that wants are one thing, making them happen is another. You are not a genie in a bottle. You have a say in this too.

I still think your wife is lining up her life as she wants it once she finishes this graduate degree she's been working on, and she wants her life to be:

1) Daddy Bear moving out of the house.
2) Daddy Bear paying house expenses.
3) Daddy Bear taking on repayment of all debt.
4) Daddy Bear paying child support and alimony.
5) Daddy Bear seeing child every day, under wife's supervision and schedule preferences only.
6) Daddy Bear fostering no contact between daughter and DB's parents (essentially depriving daughter of  50% of family)
7) Daddy Bear having no input to legal custody items such as education, medical, extracurricular activities, etc.
8) Daddy Bear eating the cost of an expensive replacement engagement ring that was supposed to have alleviated her angst and obviously hasn't done a thing.

Pretty blunt, I know -- but does this about sum up what Wife is wanting?

You don't have to agree to any of this.

Stop discussing the divorce with her. Her thinking is disordered; yours is excessively codependent -- this is a recipe for disaster.

Post your questions on the Family Law board... .and have your lawyer work with you to plan out a reasonable settlement offer/parenting plan.

So, I guess what I'm hearing is just forget about this kind of thinking... .


... .and batten down the hatches (and get ready for a war?)

Flourdust said succinctly what I was trying to say.

By giving an example of exaggerated wants, I hoped to show the disordered thinking in it.

DB, you hear your wife's constant input and constant defining you and this can confuse your own sense of who you are. This is actually a form of verbal abuse- to constantly tell someone else who they are, what they think, why they do something. It is a boundary violation to define another person's reality. Here is a list of common forms of verbal abuse. I will not guess at your wife's motives. Verbal abuse is not necessarily motivated by bad intent, but it isn't something you need to tolerate regardless of the motive.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-mysteries-love/201503/15-common-forms-verbal-abuse-in-relationships

I have heard "wants" from my BPD mother that I think are just outlandish. I have also watched my father agree to outlandish things. My mother talks a lot - expressing her view of the world and in time, my father hear her frequently and adopted it too. I really get what happened when you wrote the lawyer what she wanted pretending it was what you wanted. My father did this a lot. Sometimes I could not tell who was speaking to me, him or her- ( regardless of if it was his voice or her voice- the words were similar) or who was behind some of the decisions he made. Without boundaries, they seemed to be the same person. I hope you can get support so you can have a strong idea of who you are.

I agree with flourdust to stop the divorce talk. It gets no where. When she makes demands of you, a reply can be-this is a discussion for the lawyer - it can be your boundary.

You are not an abusive husband but you are human. I hope you can disengage before things get heated- I don't think you would hurt anyone, but reacting could hurt a custody case.

Accusing you of trying to kill the dog, your parents of plotting to kidnap your child, not buying things to hurt her when you can't afford them. This is twisted thinking.

So, I guess what I'm hearing is just forget about this kind of thinking... .

Whose thinking? Hers? Don't forget it, but you don't have to agree to it.
If her thinking sounds disordered to you, it probably is.

No, I was referring to MY thinking.

I keep thinking there’s some way I can avoid a battle, avoid a divorce all together, avoid hard feelings, etcetera etcetera... .

Maybe there was. Maybe there could have been. I don’t know.

I don’t really think grabbing her was the thing that did it, or staying in the bedroom, or not spending enough. I know that much.

DB, I am a little confused over the "divorce" "plans".

You have a lawyer, and she asked you to do this. Does she have a lawyer? Or is she asking you to basically take care of all the details of the "divorce" - you see the lawyer, you have the lawyer write up an agreement that is basically what she wants  and you sign it.

Ie She says she wants a divorce but takes no steps to actually get one, but tells you to do it. You don't want a divorce but are going along with what she wants?

Is this it?

Yes. More or less.

The only caveat is this: I can’t live in a marriage like this anymore. Is there a Hail Mary pass that might simultaneously end this current impasse AND change the marriage dynamic to something livable?

There is only one Hail Mary I can think of and I implore the wisdom of other posters for their insight. I am only one person and not a professional but I will tell you what I think.

In situations like this - I fall back on the codependency tools I learned- what are my values, wishes, ideas and what are someone else's? We all have limits. I hope if your wife told you to do something truly against your values in order to save your marriage that you would not do it. For instance - would you rob a bank, or beat up your mother- something that is so against what you value or would something about you stop you? If something stops you - that is your value, your true self speaking to you. You have learned to stop listening to him but you can.

Co dependency is taking responsibility for someone's wishes or actions that they are responsible for. Your wife says she wants a divorce. If someone wants a divorce then logically they need to take the steps to get one- see a lawyer, make plans etc. You don't want a divorce, yet you are taking responsibility for her saying she wants one.

There are unpleasant consequences to divorce. It is meant to be difficult so people don't take it lightly. You are planning to give her a free and easy cushy divorce with no consequences on the basis of her latest "wish du jour".

IMHO - and this is only my opinion - put the responsibility for this wish on her. Do not say or do anything ( don't move out - don't agree to anything ) without your lawyers advice. Keep your lawyer. Tell your wife  you don't want to discuss this.

I don't know what she will do but it doesn't make sense to do her divorce for her if you don't want one. Try to listen to your higher self DB and hear what is your value. You can't control what she wants or does but you can stand for what you want. Keep your lawyer for your own protection and advice but no more requests for actions that appear to be you but are really her. That will confuse the lawyer who may then pursue something that isn't really in your best interest.

No, this is black and white thinking. Divorce <> battle. Divorce = negotiation.

"Going along" with her request is essentially surrendering any interests of your own in favor of hers. You and your kids will pay for years to come by essentially giving her 100% custody and walking away from parenting except on her terms. You will also be communicating to your kids that she is the only real parent, and you up and left them.

If you submitted your wife's terms to court, they would want to know why you are such a terrible parent that you are ceding the 50% of custody that is nominally assumed to be yours.

This is what I meant by excessive codependent thinking. Your values are so distorted right now that you can not be trusted to make good decisions without professional guidance. I'm sorry that this is harsh, but I think you need to hear that. You are so ruled by FOG that you are willing to throw everyone -- your kids, yourself, your future -- under the bus in order to try to satisfy your wife.

DB, let me second what flourdust has said 100%.  I totally understand why you are thinking what you are thinking.  When you are that close to the reality distortion field of your pwBPD for that long, it is really hard to grasp how disordered it is.  We think, "nobody would say something crazy, so they must be reasonable, maybe I'm being unreasonable."  When we've been in the pattern so long, we just do it automatically.  As an objective observer, hearing you consider taking your wife's "offer," (please forgive the dark humor to follow) I feel like I'm watching a horror movie with a guy approaching a door, and everyone in the theater yells, ":)on't open the door!"  You are a kick *ss dad.  Your wife's offer would create a disordered universe for you and your daughter. 

Your instinct is to sacrifice yourself to meet the needs of those around you.  Your daughter needs a father who is healthy, happy, and living a whole life.  You need to have an intact, coherent world, where you are living as a full person, in order to set the right example for her of how to live, and to give her all of the nurturing and safety she needs to grow.  Taking care of yourself is taking care of your daughter.  Taking care of yourself means you need to be an empowered father with full agency who is free to parent his daughter according to his values, and who is respected as a full person in his own home.

Regarding all of your wife's threats.  I have heard them all.  Particularly the one about fabricating or blowing incidents out of proportion.  If she wishes to press forward with her accusations, she is going to have to face people who are not disordered in their thinking, and are not under her spell.  Judges and lawyers with very little patience for baloney.  She is going to have to have dates and specifics of incidents.  Consider the timing -- how does it look if she comes up with accusations right at the same time as serving divorce papers?  I'm not saying you're bulletproof, but you may find some of her accusations evaporating -- they were just for your ears, to intimidate you -- and any other accusations, she's going to have to prove with a preponderance of evidence.  Don't worry about that.  What you CAN control is your behavior from here on out.  Double down on your efforts to stay in control and not give her ammunition -- which, I think, means don't put yourself in an impossible situation.  Can you find a way to exit conversations before you hit the 12 hour mark?  (B.w.t., I admire your stamina, I don't think I ever went past 6 or 8 hours  )  Do you see how bad a 12 hour conversation is?  It kills you, and it gives her a truly massive payoff of your energy and attention, which means she will want to do it again.  Did I mention that boundaries book?  :)

Notwendy had some excellent points as well.  For some strange reason I'd feel a pull to "help" my wife enact the strange scenarios she concocted.  But I was able to pull back.  She suggested that *I* move out.  I basically did what Notwendy advised, which was refuse to put any energy into a divorce.  I found a lawyer who I trusted, and went on with life (encountering some other complications which I don't think are relevant to your situation).  My wife had a pattern of inviting me to do her dirty work for her.  Sometimes I was able to avoid it, other times I picked up and did her dirty work without even realizing it should have been hers.  Long conversations about the terms of a divorce if you don't believe in it, making terms so good for her, no negotiating work is required, all of that is doing her work for her.  If she has to do her own work, if she can't draw you into endless conversations where you give your energy to her, if she can't scare you with it, the work of a divorce and taking responsibility for it my not seem as attractive to her.

One more thing -- I have a homework exercise for you.  For one week, starting today, write down every parenting thing you do, as well as any housework, cooking, or home maintenance you do.  At the end of the week, take a look at it.  If you were ever to have to have a discussion with someone about how much parenting time you should get, how would you feel showing them that list, and talking about all that you are doing to raise your daughter?  I'm betting you'd feel proud and confident.

WW

Of COURSE I know I'm doing stupid, dangerous, harmful things to myself, my daughter, my wife, my family or origin! I've known that for 18 years! All of the things that therapists and counselors have said over the years, all of the things my parents and my brothers have tried to communicate, all the things I read in books and online, and every single thing that every one of you have tried to communicate... .it's all in here, eating me, depressing me, stressing me, keeping me anxious and angry.

WHY am I DOING this?


You might be right, flourdust, but I'm not sure I'm that far gone. I think my values are fine. I'm just not living by them. I've gotten plenty of guidance over the years, and more than anything, my internal guidance system seems to work fine when I can keep my head above water. But it's good to keep that in check, so I'm glad you put it that way. It really grabbed my attention.

All I need to do is listen to my tin man heart, my scarecrow brain, and use the courage of a cowardly lion to get it all done!

There was a great line from a Dr. Phil show. The family was centered around one member who had an eating disorder- what this person ate, what she didn't eat and so on. This gave the person tremendous power - the whole family revolved around her ( disordered) feelings and didn't even seem to think about their own. This person's disordered thinking was driving the family car .

Dr Phil looked at them and said:

You are all lost in the woods and are following a disordered person to lead you out.

I think your wife's thinking is very disordered too. Without a strong sense of self, being around someone with BPD often,  it is hard to recognize disordered thinking.

DB, I don't know why you do it. Your family needs you to be the reality check. Your wife's disordered thinking is driving the marriage into her fantasy divorce plans.

What Wentworth said: Your daughter needs a father who is healthy, happy, and living a whole life.  You need to have an intact, coherent world, where you are living as a full person, in order to set the right example for her of how to live, and to give her all of the nurturing and safety she needs to grow.  Taking care of yourself is taking care of your daughter.  Taking care of yourself means you need to be an empowered father with full agency who is free to parent his daughter according to his values, and who is respected as a full person in his own home.

Daddybear, you said that you have heard all the advice, that you agree, yet you still cannot stop yourself.  I hear you.  I understand.  I completely agree with fourdust's point that you need professional guidance.  Support here is only a part of the solution.  Having a real live person sitting in front of you, validating, coaching you towards healthy decisions and behaviors, etc. is what is required to help lead you out of the fog.  Do not try to climb this mountain without a sherpa.

Do you have any good leads on a T?  Have you seen one before?

WW

DB, that sounds really intense.    I can imagine that's really heavy stuff to carry around for so long.  What is the alternative and how does that make you feel in contrast?  I know you are scared of the possibility of being alone.  If you sit with that feeling and allow yourself to truly imagine being in that position, is it better or worse than the feelings you have right now that you describe above?

Love and light x

DB77,

I'm very late to this thread but something you said on the beginning stood out to me.


This strikes me not only as validating the invalid (her core fear of you leaving, and we know it's common for pwBPD to drive loved ones to validate their fear script), but also engaging in the role as Persecutor, she the victim. 

Hey everyone,

Lets face it, what I'm doing is pretty nuts.

A lot of people are reading this thread, and many (most?) of you are probably having a reaction similar to Wentworth - ":)ON'T OPEN THAT DOOR! THERE'S BAD STUFF IN THERE!"

Here are some of my thoughts on this - I'm not sure if I've got all this straight, but let me see if I can give it a try... .

---

Co dependency is a really hard thing to get, unless you live it, and then you may not even realize it's happening. We THINK we're saving someone and that's noble and we should get "credit" for being such a great person. At the very least, we should get a pass from all the anger and frustration we get from the person we're co-depending on, right?

But what we're really doing, I think, is that we're playing into a dysfunctional cycle that enables the other person to stay as disordered as they possibly can be. We are robbing another person of their personhood, their agency, their ability to dictate the terms of their own life. As messed up as that life might seem to us, it's theirs to live. We have no right to live or manipulate or control the way someone does "life." And we're actually preventing them from taking those first steps toward any possible recovery, which is discovering and admitting, "Houston, we have a problem... ."

Meanwhile, OUR life is just kind of happening as a secondary after effect of the life someone ELSE is living. We hand over every single choice we have in life to someone else. Put another way, every choice we make is for, or on behalf of, someone else. If we are defined by the choices we make in life, then in essence we are undefined. Or, at the very least, we're defined by desperation and manipulation. There is the other person (them), and then there is the other person's person (us).

If the other person leaves our life, then our life goes with them, and we are no more.

Sounds kind of BPD-ish, doesn't it?  "Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment" are sure to follow this.

Now imagine two people, different sides of a coin, both having this intense fear of abandonment.

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I'm going to stop here, and ask those people who are more experienced / much further along than i am (i.e., everyone who has so generously and kindly replied to my post!)... .

Am I getting it? Am I on target here?

DB

I think co-dependency is indeed very hard to get our head around, after all it is something I think we find hard to admit and even when we 'get it' it leaves us in a situation of having to accept that another person is not capable of meeting our unmet needs. This goes against some very core beliefs held from our early years. Some of us are 'caretakers' its the way we are, looking at our motivations for being this way can be illuminating, changing it is hard work!

In living with a pwBPD we do think we are acting out of kindness and you are indeed right that this becomes a cycle of dysfunction - in trying to meet their needs (which of course change frequently and are often full of contradiction) we go against our own needs. It might temporarily ease their situation to go along with their needs/thinking but it becomes an endless cycle which can leave us feeling sad, depressed, anxious, resentful, hurt - those feelings are unbearable!

Of course we are not meeting their needs when we enable, we are providing temporary relief whilst at the same time denying them the painful opportunity of learning, why should they learn when we are there to 'solve their angst'? At the same time we are going against our needs and making an already difficult situation worse.

Our own thinking becomes distorted by trying to force solutions but we keep falling back into a cycle where nobody is getting what they need. As the 'non' we have a clearer picture but this constant cycle leads us to self -doubt. Just as the only 'hail mary' is for the pwBPD to seek and commit to recovery with professional help, and it has to be their choice - so we also need professional help and guidance.

DB I can see the pain and anguish in your postings and how hard things have become, ultimately this dysfunctional dance only ends when one party can dance no longer - I would urge you to get some professional help for yourself - when caught up in this cycle we cannot find the answers in 'our own head' and on these boards there is great help from those having gone through similar situations but we are all unique and having guidance from a therapist who understands BPD can be very helpful in helping to see our way through the woods even if our BPD partner cannot.


Hugs

Ortac77

DB, I think you get it intellectually, but it is hard for you to stop doing it.

I understand that. I observed it in my father but when I had to work on it myself, I understood it better.

An explanation of why you can not resist it easily parallels the addiction model. I know some people have disputed this, and I also don't like the idea of that model being used as an excuse only, but it is an interesting concept when used to work on it.

I think people are familiar with addictions such as alcohol or drugs and understand them as emotional and chemical addictions. I don't have those addictions and so thought of myself as free from any addictions, but somehow this idea- co-dependency as an addiction made sense when I considered how hard it was to break the patterns- but it can be done. It does take some work.

It took counseling, 12 step co-dependency groups and working one on one with a sponsor. I think posting here helps but the one on one with the sponsor- really getting at the tough stuff, someone holding my feet to the fire- was what it took to get a handle on it.

A few people told my I was co-dependent but I didn't quite get what that was and read books that didn't really resonate with me. Many were from the perspective of partners of drug or alcohol abusers but that didn't really fit. I wasn't dealing with that.  When a MC suggested the 12 step groups, I walked in thinking " I don't belong here".

In time I realized I did belong there.  

A definition of addiction is using something or someone to escape our own bad feelings. An alcoholic uses a drink. A co-dependent "uses" other people in the sense that a focus on them, not us, keeps us from looking too closely at our own issues/bad feelings. Denial is a common component of both - the alcoholic tells himself it isn't this bad, I can control it, and it is also the case with co-dependency.

With the help of a sponsor, I started to pay close attention to my impulse to step in and rescue, or when I was feeling tempted to JADE or get into a circular argument. I began to imagine these "temptations" as someone offering me something as addictive as a drink or a drug. The term emotional sobriety began to make sense. These things were not good for me and I needed to not get into them.

The other model that fit was "hitting bottom". They say the time that a person is most motivated to seek help is when they are truly feeling the effects of their addiction. Addicts of all kinds tend to be paired with enablers who actually harm them by keeping them from hitting bottom- which keeps them from change. I think the BPD-non pairing is sort of a dual enabling. The needs of the pwBPD provide a supply of temptation for the non- along with the emotional "high" of the relationship when these actions temporarily work- like the momentary euphoria when you bought your wife a ring, went on that second honeymoon. But like a drug, there's the crash which shortly followed- and now the withdrawal and scramble for another "fix". The pwBPD doesn't get the opportunity to grow- to learn how to manage their own emotions, or learn from the consequences of their actions.

I think people resist the "dependency " part of co-dependency but there is a different definition of dependent. They may be independent in other ways- earn a living for example. One idea from ACA groups is "we become reactors rather than actors". This resonated with me. Instead of acting, I was reacting to the needs of others. Remember those science experiments in high school? There was an independent variable and a dependent variable.  The independent variable changed and the dependent variable responded to that change. A plant grew facing the sun. Move the plant, it changed direction to face the sun. The plant didn't choose its own direction. Co-dependency is being like that plant.

You know my basic story. My parents had many of the same dynamics as you and your wife. I knew my mother had issues but thought my father was the normal one so I didn't recognize co-dependency in him or me until I had to work on it. Bringing these traits into my marriage led to problems and I did "hit bottom" emotionally- with the marriage and also with the drama in my FOO- I just didn't want to participate in these patterns. I did not want to break contact with my mother, who was by then a widow, or break up my marriage. My hope was that working on my own co-dependency would reduce my own dysfunctional behaviors and it did. It was a start. I think of it as a work in progress. Since the marital issues were significantly milder than what I observed in my FOO, there has been progress. The relationship with my mother is more difficult- considering she has been in these patterns for decades it would be. However, over time, our interactions are less dysfunctional than they have been.

DB, I will echo the others. I think getting professional help is important when dealing with co-dependency. It helps to have someone holding the mirror up to one's own actions and behaviors.

Hi NotWendy

I just wanted to echo your posting, co-dependency does (to me) follow an addiction model, I too have attended 12 step programmes as well as having one- to one counselling. I know in Al-Anon my initial 12 step experience they talked about being addicted to 'people, places and things' - it took me time to see it but I know its true.

To an extent it applies to those of us addicted to 'enabling' our BPD partner - I found it led me to seek working with a therapist who also treats BPD clients, this helped me to see how I could also apply DBT to my own situation.

I am not 'there' yet - maybe never will be totally 'there' and that has helped me to see that my partner (who is in DBT counselling) also will not be 'cured' but can (if he wants to) gain more skills to better manage his life.

Its a long journey and I can resist sometimes and just want to walk away, I could from my partner but I see that I cannot from myself and that to me is the key.

DB - my fear is that we are forever destined to repeat our own patterns until we confront them and I think you really have got 'the what' is happening, the tough part is getting the 'how and why' and just for me I have to look a lot harder at me than I do to my partner, all IMHO of course.

Hi DaddyBear,

I hear ya. The "why" is a piece of the painful puzzle. I ask myself this too and the answers are never great. These divorce threats are unbearable and I am recommitting myself to finding a way out of this destructive pattern. I am so sorry you are feeling stressed, depressed, anxious, and angry.

I got to speak with a neutral third party recently and it was a nice, unexpected, kick in the pants on these issues. One thing this person and I agreed on is that I can't continue to "stay and keep suffering like this"... .but what to do about it? Just seeing all my options on the table, and having to acknowledge there are no good options, just less bad ones... .helped. So... .I'm not here to push, I trust you will find your way out of the confusion on the timetable you will, but I'm just here to offer you support... .there really are ways out of this... .the other side is scary, but it may also hold some options that are worth the effort to entertain. I'm right here with you about to lose the life I've grown used to, the life I've made such a strong effort to make as healthy as I can... .losing this relationship would be a tragedy for me in some ways, but... .who knows what could happen if we face our fears.  

Keep talking... .why are you doing this? In my case I think I a bit a stubborn in the sense that... .well maybe I'm a bit (too?) hopeful, and I don't like to "quit"... .but what if I was putting all of this effort into a life that would bring me more happiness? I don't know either... .but I'm trying to, I've been forced in the past few weeks to finally face such things and to imagine a new life... .I dunno... .it could be good, in time... .it could be good.

I don’t want to turn this into a “Conflicted” style thread, but it’s important to aknowledge the intense back and forth we experience inside a relationship like this. I think there’s a lot of relief to be had on the other side of a “relationship exit” - but it’s too tempting to just walk away and say “it’s better now.” I’ve made some real mistakes and I genuinely want to “correct”’ them, learn from them, whatever is possible, I want to do it.

I’m going to start counceling again next week. For most of the past 9 years I’ve been going, but not so much the past year. I had a thread or two about this. Whatever the reasons, it’s time to go again.

I’m also going to take my primary care doctor up on her offer to help we get started again on an anti depressant / anti anxiety med. I don’t need that underlying foundation to be compromised as much as it is right now, which isn’t a lot comparatively but it’s there.

Finally, I’m going to make and keep a second consultation appointment with my attorney next week.

All this takes a lot of mental energy and also financial outlay, but i think it’s worth it. I’m worth it.

Thanks for all the support everyone. I really appreciate it.

I don't know if I missed something but I don't see the conflict in this thread, but please explain if there is.

I understand the back and forth, and I think many posters do. I saw it happen over decades with my parents. Their relationship was a mystery to me. I seek to understand it from the perspective of how it influenced me, but I saw it all, DB, the conflict, the circular arguments, the recycles.

After I left home for college, I really didn't see my parents a lot, except during school breaks, some time off. When I had my own children, they visited more often to see the grandkids. BPD mom was not much of an issue, as she was not alone with them. There is no way I would leave small children alone with her after my own experiences as her child- but she instinctively knew I would not tolerate disordered behavior and held it together. It is interesting how pwBPD tend to sense boundaries and if motivated for something - will seem to hold it together. It is in the most intimate relationships that things are the toughest- and if their partner also has poor boundaries and co-dependency that can add to dysfunction.

But I was co-dependent and didn't really know it, even though I was less co-dependent than my father. I was co-dependent in my marriage, with my mother and with him. Our relationship fit the drama triangle. I saw how my mother treated him. I couldn't stand it. I didn't see his part in their drama, just hers, and saw him as her victim. When you mentioned your wife saying that your D might grow up to hate you, it is also possible she may hate her mother when she sees the conflicts between you two. In their conflict ,I always took my father's side. When his health began to fail, I took her to task, not knowing she'd take victim perspective, present me as persecutor and enlist Dad to rescue her from me. This pattern had actually been going on since my teen years. There was no way I could see my mother's behaviors as acceptable and pretend they were. The back and forth pattern also played out between me and my parents.

I am so glad to see you taking steps to take care of you. My H had refused MC until there came a point where I think he got scared of losing the relationship. I had spent years working at "fixing" my marriage - fixing us- reading piles of marriage books, turning into a Stepford wife- basically a domestic servant with benefits to try to stop the rages. I was not happy.  I got to a point where I felt I most needed to just work on me more.  I think my H must have noticed the emotional shift. He had refused MC because he feared the MC would tell me to get a divorce but I think at this point he feared not going more.  The MC then said something significant.

She said her goals were to keep the marriage, but even if the marriage ended, the skills we would gain would allow us to negotiate that in a less contentious way because the conflicts and dysfunction would be less. But that didn't mean my H was on board with changing. He really wasn't- insight isn't his nature. But the co-dependency on my part was a problem that I didn't want and I really wanted to change it. I stopped trying to "save my marriage" and became concerned about saving me.

DB, I don't think anyone is expecting you to make giant changes or even decide on your marriage- that is a huge giant step and dealing with co-dependency isn't instant. Taking on self care is key and a step in the right direction. Take care of you- the counselor, the lawyer, medication if you need it. Yes, you are worth it and so is that little girl of yours. She needs you to take care of you and also to role model taking care of you.

The future of your marriage isn't known, but working on co-dependency and self care will likely reduce the drama in your marriage. If the marriage holds together, it will be better. If it does not, there still will be divorce negotiations and you two have a child together. Reducing the drama will help with that as well, if it were to happen. Investing in you is an investment you get to keep.

Notwendy, I was just referring to the indecision as to whether I want to work on codependency in the context of this marriage or if I’d rather seek separation while I work on things. I don’t want divorce, I’m sure that I am committed to honoring my vows. But the hostile environment I live in now might prevent the growth I need. That’s what I was referring to when I said “Conflicted style”

Anyway, I wanted to share something very cool. We’re at the salon where my daughter is getting her first ever haircut. The stylist just said my daughter is unlike any girl she’s ever seen. She’s going to change the world, she said.

I couldn’t agree more.

I get it. I think it is honest to admit indecision. I don't think anyone is questioning whether you want a divorce- just raising the concern that you may be facilitating your wife's cushy, consequence free divorce fantasies. Yes, with her threats consulting your lawyer in order to protect your interests is important and advisable.

Take this one step at a time. Work on co-dependency now, right where you are and deal with the other decisions with the support of a counselor and your lawyer.

Yes, your D will change the world. I have a feeling she's going to start with you.  *)

Whether it's the genes or the parenting, either way you're doing a great job!  I am sure you were unlike any dad the stylist had ever met!

Hang in there, DB!

WW *)

Thanks WW. She really is such an amazing person. I got so lucky in life to have her come into mine. BOTH of her parents love her so much, and I see the traits from both of us shine through and combine in such an amazing way. Did i mention how crazy I am about her?  :)

I spoke to my L again and I have a solid plan to document my interactions and parenting activity. I’m not going to file but I’ll be prepared if she does.

But what really concerns me is how VERY unhealthy I’ve been. I’m completely shocked at my choices and behaviors over the years. I’ve willingly given up SO much. Understanding why I’ve done this is important. Stopping it now and going in a completely different direction immediately is more important.

My wife has a disorder. The basis for her custody request is a paranoid delusional idea that another woman (my mother) is trying to steal away her child. Her mother (my mother in law) shares this trait of disordered thinking and provides an unhealthy feedback loop. My wife’s counselor is not trained to deal with personality disorders. My wife is taught weekly that she’s an abuse survivor (which often gets translated to victim), and must use the tool sets of empowerment and self protection in the context of her perceived dangerous and abusive marriage.

So, in conclusion, there is no way I am going to willingly, voluntarily give up parenting time. Ever. Not on the basis of her claims or anyone else’s.

And that’s all I have to say about that  *)

When I read what she wanted in a 'divorce', I was reminded that she is mentally ill, and lives in world where reality is morphed to fit her emotions, and this is evidence of it. I cannot imagine a court forcing you to do that, and would hope it would even refuse to sign off on it should you ask for it. (But don't know about that!)

It does give you a window into her expectations and perhaps what she will do, however. If you start divorce, separation, or simply move out on your own terms (i.e. not coming back to be her caretaker after you get your own apartment!) she will rage and make false allegations against you. That's a pretty safe bet.

Would she do it with police/courts/lawyers? Or would she just rage at you? Men go to jail over a false DV accusations. Or get restraining orders that keep them away from their kids.

From what you've said of her, it isn't clear how far she will take this stuff in a rage,

Talk to your lawyer again. Explain to her that the email you sent was what your wife is demanding, NOT what you want, and tell the lawyer more about your real home situation. Get her advice on what could happen if things really blow up... .and how best to protect yourself. I'm thinking that documentation of your parenting activities and her rages are both going to be on the list.


 |iiii  This is what it looks like when you find your core values that make it worth it to fight your own codependence and do the right thing. Keep it up!

Now that's a powerful statement and one which reflects your inner strength, which is coming to the surface DB.  So wonderful to see.  That is one firm boundary on yourself.  |iiii  Which of your other values can you begin to honour in due course I wonder?

Love and light x

That statement right there is what I wanted from my father. Not just at age 4, but at any age. She won't need the kind of parenting at age 44 that she needs at age 4 but she will always treasure the bond between you two. Glad to see you won't give that up but that also means not giving up you.

It will take some work to change the behaviors you mention but it's worth the investment in you !

Notwendy, thanks for acting as the voice of our grownup daughters! 

WW

Thank you WW- that means a lot! :)

*mod*

DaddyBear77,

I would encourage you to start another post to continue this discussion.  Keep up the good work of being open and taking in feedback!

This thread has reached its posting limit, and is therefore locked.

FF