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I have been told by the abuse hotline people that the most dangerous time can be when a victim tries to leave the relationship.  I'm making plans and I have to be sure he doesn't know what's coming.

Hi Frankee,

I lifted the above quote for a prior post. Can you tell us about what you are thinking in terms of leaving?  Is it frustration speak? a forming idea? a contingency? a commitment you have made to yourself?

Shifting from "working on things, to tolerating things, to detaching, to making an emergency exit are all very different things with very different tools and dynamics.

I really think it will help to get on a consistent path and as for member help in working the tools that apply to that path.


When did this happen? You haven't mentioned this previously. Gun violence is a pretty big deal.


This is the time to be very emotionally intelligent.  I know you are frustrated. This might be a good place to move beyond the frustration (just this thread) and spell out in balanced terms, what is going on in your life.

There is a huge difference between dirty cereal bowls and a loaded gun pressed against someones head as they keel in an execution position.

Let talk.

Skip

Couple years ago.  I've never mentioned it before because I was scared.  To admit it, to accept that I am still with that person.  Then the questions of why I didn't report it then, why didn't I tell the cops, leave him.  I was fresh into this whole way of being treated.  He had me so convinced that he could get away with anything, that he had been in and out of the system to know how it works, that he would get of jail, he would find me, and follow through on his threat.  Never in my entire life had such insidious things been told to me.  Having someone with his background and people he's met, I fully believed him and I honestly still do to this day.


1. I'm currently in a war in my head.  The part of me that has had enough.  Which isn't helping me because it's the reaction part of this situation.  Being snapped at, yelled at, called names... this part of me wants come back with the same negative sarcastic response.  I've had enough and this feeling of being stomped on is really pushing at my self preservation.  I keep telling myself to stay calm, breathe, do not let him get to you, and most importantly to not talk before I think. 

2. Then the survival mode, seeing when he's escalating and maintaining the approach of applying the tools I've learned to ensure he doesn't keep climbing that heightened emotional state.

3. Then when I see he's returned to normal, like who I remember falling for, I feel softened and like there is hope.  Maybe a chance everything will be okay.  Then the rug is pulled out from me again and I'm back at item #1. 

My feeling, thoughts, emotions are being spun in a blender.  Sometimes I have clarity and determination on getting out, sometimes I feel defeated, to just accept this as my life, then I get the side of him that makes me feel loved.  The only problem is, while he may be doing that, I'm not feeling it from my own self.  Like I'm faking the smiles, the calm exterior.  Like my moods have to adjust to his, match his to prevent another episode.  It's not genuine.  I have taken so much crap and something in me feels like it just snapped.  Almost as every time he yells, gets angry, calls me cruel mean things now... just another little push in the direction that I'm already going.

Can you tell us what physical abuse has occurred in the last six months?

I think before we talk about verbal or emotional abuse, its really important to have a solid picture of the physical abuse.

Do you mind inventorying it?

I’m not taking issue with the idea that it may be useful to inventory what exactly has happened recently; but, two things. One: once you have absorbed in your conscious and subconscious mind that this other person has and may hurt you badly, the well-founded, not-irrational fear of that repeating does damage even when it is not presently happening. This is how people find themselves getting cereal for others in the middle of the night when they were asleep and the person asking could have gotten it himself ... .etc etc etc. That fear—and I re-emphasize, that well-founded fear—can make the exercise of healthy boundaries nearly impossible.

The second consideration is that all the evidence I’ve ever seen is that serious physical abusers keep going. With the same partner or a new partner. I don’t know if studies have been or could be done of this question with respect to emotional abuse— but as to physical abuse, there is no widely used treatment or intervention shown to make a significant impact. Let alone the pattern without intervention. Which returns me to: the fear which Frankee feels and which affects her felt options when being bullied is well founded.

Hi,
I'm happy to hear that you're making plans to leave this man and that you have called a hotline. Are you prepared to go to a shelter? Keep in mind that even if your husband is mentally ill - there 's no excuse for abusive behaviour - either emotional and physical. Yes, I recognize all this - pretending and waiting for the right moment to break up and then start hoping again that it 'll work once he 's in the honeymoon phase. Put your own safety first. You could maybe leave him to get a break from him.
Don't give up!
donkey2016

That is kind of breakdown I'm facing.  Applying the tools have proven to be a very difficult road.  Especially the extinction burst.  I had it going for awhile but go side tracked.  Something like this where we try to break a habit/behavior by using this method.  There were times where I was afraid that it was going to escalate into a physical altercation.

Even now, I don't know what the source is of his complete turn around.  He hasn't say he didn't mean any of it and before he has said retractions on his behavior.  I typed out a whole sentence contemplating the meaning behind his current behavior and mood, when I realized it was pointless.  Radical acceptance right?  Sometimes we have to accept stuff that is really unfair and downright sucks.

A general comment about the physical altercations.  They are not nearly as bad as they use to be.  Couple years ago was the darkest time where I was constantly living in fear, anxiety, depression, sometimes suicidal thoughts from the way he treated me.  Which is pretty messed up that I say it's not nearly as bad as it was, almost like saying... hey!  at least he's not beating me on a regular basis anymore.     Then I feel stupid for thinking that, because it never should of happened in the first place.

Since I got pregnant with our youngest which was about two and half years ago, the worse I experienced was when he got angry and put his hands on my neck.  There was three incidents like that.  The last one is when I put my feet on his chest and shoved him hard into the wall.  How messed up is that?  Talking about it like as if I lost my waller or something.  That's another thing that concerns me is how minimized it has become in our relationship.

Frankee,

For this thread (only), can we get away from feelings and generalities and lay out what the physical violence has been, like a lawyer would. This is really important. What you are experiencing is a "breakthrough crisis". It will help to get specific.

When you go to court, they will ask for dates, places, photos, who you told, hospital visits, etc.  We don't need all that of course, but you are giving us very vague references.


Were you beaten on a regular basis? Or is the a metaphor "almost like saying".


This was worse than the execution kneel with a loaded pistol to the back of your head?

See how confusing this is to a reader?  *)

Known of this is to minimize your emotional duress... .verbal abuse can be enough to severely damage someone. The reason I'm asking for specific on the physical abuse is that the tools (for staying or leaving) are very different than those for verbal abuse.

That makes sense, break through.  I could get specific on things that happened, but not very clear on the exact dates.  There's no photo's, no hospital visits, only one appointment.  I have one friend who I have disclosed previous physical altercations.  She has known him longer and has seen this behavior.  Not first hand, but just from being around.

Now you know how I feel.   It's almost like this barricade of emotions and feelings just opened up.  I really understand the aspect of seperating feelings and generalities, I'm just still in the phase of trying to clear my head of all these old wounds that seemed to have surfaced.  The one blasting in my face is revisiting things that happened and asking myself, why in the F didn't I cut and run back then?  If I knew now what I knew back then, I would not be in my current situation.  I know that thought is unproductive, doesn't help me, it's in the past, I can't change the past... doesn't stop it from being prominent in my current thought process.

When I mean worse as in worse I've had in the past two and a half years.  It was far worse before that.  I received some form of physical abuse on a regular basis few years back.  Ranging from being detained against my will, to the extreme back yard incident.

The one thing that I have gotten out of all of this is the fact that my compassion, will, empathy, tenderness, kindness towards others, and always looking to improve myself may had faultered, but it has never really left me.  He has never had the ability to truly take that from me.

Frankee


The only way to change how we feel about something is to change how we think about it.

No I am not kidding.

The only way to change how we feel about something is to change how we think about it.

We can't directly access our feelings.   The impact to our feelings is through what we think.    Try this with me.    Think about snow and cold.    I bet you can.    Now think about a beach, sand, sunshine.   I bet an image popped right into your head.    Now Feel Happy.   Really try to feel happy.   Work at it, generate a happy feeling.   I bet the only way you could 'feel happy' was to think about a fond memory.   To think about something you are maybe looking forward to.   Or to think about something that happened that was a very good time.

So, The only way to change how we feel about something is to change how we think about it.



the encouragement you are getting to really think about things.   to really get specific.   the reason for that encouragement is thinking about it, getting specific with details will help to clarify all the feelings, or as you said clear your head.

Feelings are neither good or bad.  They aren't right or wrong.   Our so called 'negative' emotions,... .the goal isn't to make them go away as fast as possible.    The so called negative emotions are there for a reason too.

What I understand from reading your posts is there was a period before the birth of your youngest child where the physical part of the abuse was very bad.   Then after the birth of the youngest, things quieted down.      The last physical event he had his hands around your throat as you were down on the bed and used your legs to push him off you.    Since then there has been a pretty constant stream of verbal abuse but nothing physical.

Do I have that all right?   If there are details missing can you add them?   I really understand that dealing with all this, talking about this can stir up old feelings.    But it is important to get the details correct.    It will help bring clarity.

'ducks

Have you ever taken the Mossaic test? My psychologist and my RCMP friend encouraged me to take it. They wanted me to have a clearer understanding of my risk. In truth I think they wanted a clearer understanding as well.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=117713.0

Maybe it would help put things in perspective for you.

hugs

That makes sense.  There are times where I feel like I'm not even thinking, I'm just letting go of the sporadic feelings and emotions.  Almost as when I let go of the thought process it's because trying to navigate and think about it becomes too much.  If that makes sense. 

I find what I struggle with is most of the time recently, my happy stints are faked.  As if I'm having to force it.  Is that still a step in the right direction to real happiness?  Forcing it and hoping it becomes true?

That's what has happened.  The physical abuse pretty much stopped after I found out I was pregnant.  Then the three times that he put his hands on me.  The very last time was when I shoved him.  Didn't even think about it, just defended myself.

What I find my current state of mind is bouncing.  I keep wondering if the fact that I was physically abused by my H is what compounds with the current verbal/emotional abuse.  My logically side tells me that he's spewing BS, it's not true, has the ability to detach and really see what's going on.  The side that is this whole emotional wreck is letting the abuse get to me.  Flashes of previous physical abuse compacted with the current verbal/emotional abuse is what breaks me down.

Can you sketch out some timeframes of the physical part and the extreme verbal part.

Since you have been pregnant has he said or threatened to make you disappear or those kinds of things?

FF

I took the test.  Not really sure if I read it right.  I got a pretty high mark out of the scale 1-10.  Is that the level of risk?

Yes it is the risk level. I have retaken it when my circumstances change.  It is a well respected tool to assess risk. Please be cautious. our lives are always worth more than the risk.

It was ____ ?

It sound like the physical abuse is in the past for now - there is always a possibility it will return, but a couple of years pause is a good sign.  Clearly, the two of you are deeply immersed in a cycle of conflict. The "blow up" with both of you lashing out, the make up, the period of peace which then builds to tension, then the trigger... .repeat. You both are on edge and ready to go at it - even over a bowl of cereal - but the problem is not the cereal - the problem is that you both feel like victims. You are both benignly threatening to walk away - this is now a normal part of the relationship.

It sounds like you, personally, are well past trying to learn and work tools. At some point we fatigue. You're done with trying. I guess the question is, what's next?  The path you are on is headed in a bad direction. If you continue on in this style of relationship, it is a poor existence; poor quality of life.

If you play this out as a battered wife and move out of the country in the middle or the night and take the kids, you are playing hard ball and any man would be incensed. I'd be careful to only do this only if it is necessary. This is a very important decision. Be as honest and open as you can be with the those who are counseling you.

If you want out, you could simply take your husband up on his next offer to end the relationship. It would be his idea. Don't do it as part of a fight by lashing out with it... .just give it a humble "ok". Talk to your lawyer, draft a temporary restraining order that spells out the conditions of separation and custody, let his lawyer edit,  and go forward. A break might do you both good.

You could also try a therapeutic separation under the management of a psychologist who try to help you both make sense of what you really want to do and test being apart.

I think it be really helpful for you to let go of your feelings of being a long term victim here (I understand why you feel this) because it's not helping you - its making matters worse. Once you feel you have real options (and realistic options), you will see more clearly. Leaving is likely to be the same messy process for you as any other member here. You probably don't need a high conflict, middle of the night, run to Canada.

In marriage you are either working on it or leaving it. You can survive a little while in a state of cold war... .but sooner (rather than later) you both need to move forward.

Lastly, I am not suggesting you leave your marriage or start working on your marriage - that not for any of us to so here - I'm really suggesting that you move beyond the woundedness and start thinking about a path to a better life.

Dear @Skip,
Although you’ve written this reply to @Frankee I thank you. Many of us are still struggling with this “victim” role play, play with thoughts of leaving and thus narrowing our options further. Communication isn’t always verbal, duffle looks and sights send just as powerful message, successfully adding fuel to “push and pull dynamics”. I often ask myself a question, if leaving wouldn’t be one of the options, what would I do different in my relationships? I wouldn’t waste as much time on pointless stand offs and power struggles. Thank you for calling things as they are, regardless of the direction one chooses. You’ve helped me this morning

Without doubt and from experience, the quicker you can step out of the victim role the quicker the conflict will decrease.

Implementing the tools is fantastic, but not if we do it with contempt in our soul, irritation in our hearts, or passive aggressive tones to our voices.

Our SO, as we would, will be quick as a flash to pick up on the inauthenticity of our words and be, as I would, more annoyed, and set up perfectly to continue the conflict.

Information and understanding about this disorder and its characteristics, the pervasive nature of its traits empower us as the non-disordered partner to step away from and let go of our part in the dysfunction.

Is it always easy? No.
Does it always work? Yes.
If it works does it mean the relationship will go on to survive? No.

You can break this down into smaller areas as well. 

In my relationship I was "victimized" by my wife's abrogation of financial agreements.  She would "repent" and we would make a new agreement, she would keep it for a while and then abrogate.  I would be "hurt"... .how could you?  I'll never do it again... .I was tricked... .you tricked me... .I had to... .you always... .you never

It was an area she could get some sort of emotional intensity to return.  I keep "trying" and kept getting victimized.

Then the last boundary was put in place and we no longer manage money jointly.  She threw a debit card at me and hit me with it (flung it in my direction) when I was trying to "solve" an issue for her about whether or not she could spend money.  She knew... .I knew she knew... .

She has "offered" to argue about money several times since then... .I decline. 

I'm going to take care of my financial future.  I'm not going to be a "victim" anymore.  I'm not going to make agreements with people that don't keep them.

I'm would guess there are other areas of my r/s with my wife where I am still stepping into the victim role and hopefully I'll have the wisdom to find and eliminate those from my r/s.

FF

 C<||| formflier, this Is a very powerful insight. Kind of in line with errorless teaching. You’ve removed the opportunity for your wife to make a mistake on “your behalf” financially, thus successfully exhausting the conflict. It’s so simple, yet, many of us are frightened by taking this step. I, personally am afraid of making such transition, although it’s also necessary. There are other examples I can site that helped me tramendously. I was relying and waiting on doing things “any man should do for his wife”, e.g. oil change, tire change, deal with unjust billing, carry groceries, home repairs and fixtures and the list goes on and on. I also waited on him to tell me the direction our lives were going “ in the best interest of the family”. That served absolutely no value for me. We kept having arguments, he was triggered and dysregulated by housework and arrangement making. I am now solemnly responsible for our cars, service and repairs, and I decide if I will go along his long term plans for us. If it serves our family’s purpose I agree, if it doesn’t, I hold my ground. He feels rejected, he splits and dysregulates, and then it passes while I still have my life intact. There are so many decisions that he forced me into, better yet I wasn’t strong enough to hold to my values, that I deeply regret now. Because I’m wiser, I know better now. I still, however need help and support if this board from time to time

It was a 7.  I am questioning whether I did the test right.  Some of the questions I answered were from things that happened couple years ago, but not recent.  They said it shows escalation in my situation which is actually opposite. 

I read through all the replies.  I appreciate everyone's responses and knowing I'm not alone in my dilemma.  I'm also glad that what was said helped others as well.


This sums up our relationship.  Constantly on edge about when that one thing is going to cause the next explosion.  I don't know how I feel about it right now.  The biggest part of me wants to keep holding on.  Since the last blow out, he's been back to normal.  Yet, part of the cycle.

Yes I am playing vicitim.  I'm not going to pretend.  I'm trying to justify the means why I want to stay.  I put a block on the past, pushed it back in my head, excused it because of what he went through, told myself he's different, etc.  Maybe I didn't properly process my feelings and emotions back then and know they have surfaced with a vengeance.

Before I experienced it myself, I always said what a lot of other people said... why would she stay with someone that had abused her?  Why didn't she just leave?  Why didn't she report him?  She deserves better than that.  Those questions and statements I asked about others, I now ask about myself.  I'm having a hard time getting past those questions.  If that makes me playing the vicitm role, I will accept that right now.  I know it doesn't apply to or help my current circumstances.  I'm upset with myself at this moment for not doing something about it long ago.  Not saying something, not telling a friend sooner.

This is going to take me so time to figure out what I want to do next. 

I think you need to answer about the current situation, not the past.


As it should... .

Resentments, no matter how justified, do not serve us well. I'd keep that in the back of your mind and remind yourself... .I know you embrace this intellectually - hopefully at some point soon you can embrace it emotionally.  *)

You're either on the bus or off the bus.

Definitely take some time to think about where you want to be.   

I work hard to stay in the present.  I do sometimes "go to the past" and have to deal with resentments.  My goal is to use boundaries so that whatever caused me a resentment in the past, is unlikely to happen again.

You would think someone should apologize or "make it up to me" (and they should), but that's not on the table right now. 

For instance, my wife used to discipline the kids physically in a way that I thought was abusive.  I reported it to CPS.  My wife and I both have resentment and blame about the situation, but it's better for me to focus on the fact that we no longer use corporal punishment. 

My wife got to the point where she said... .once... .it was "bad parenting" for her to do what she did.  That's likely the most I will ever get from her.

Stay present.  Remember that the feelings of pwBPD change rapidly.  They have a hard time remember the feelings of a few weeks ago, especially if their moods are swinging wildly... .let alone a few years.

FF

Either sh** or get off the pot.  As hard as some of this is to hear, I'm glad I came here and still posting.  Other forums I disclosed mild forms of verbal encounters with my H, most people were telling me to get in the car and run.  Not helpful.

Even after everything I ranted on about and disclosed on past abuse, I'm overall feeling okay.  I don't know if it's my H's current mood of being just fine and dandy or if I'm really just feeling better.  I try to separate of moods from each other, but little more difficult done than said.

I already went through a messy break up with an ex.  One thing I took from it was, I made some bad choices, there was a lot I wished I could had changed or done differently.  Truth was, I couldn't.  All I could do was accept what happened as reality, learn from my mistakes, and start moving forward.

Not in the current relationship I am in (it hasn't been phsycial as of this moment) but my former relationship I was in for 4.5 years with a narcissistic sociopath the worse time was when I tried to leave he beat me within an inch of my life... .I had a fractured skull and had to have every inch of my face reconstructed... .I am not trying to scare you and I am sorry if it is TMI but what you have been told is accurate... .you need to get your ducks in a row on where you are going to go when you do leave and you need to have to police there when you do decide to go... .and if at all possible you need to do it when he isn't home... .contact your local womens shelter and they will be able to help!

Hi Frankee



It's really okay to ask yourself those questions.    Like you said they are the common questions that float around in these type of conversations.

What is probably not so terribly helpful is to use those questions to form/make/cast judgements.   

You know that in other forums and in other conversations forming judgements has never been particularly effective.    "She Should Have Left Him Immediately",  helps no one.   It's actually counter productive.

Thoughts or statements that deal in absolutes,  I Should Have,   He Should Have,    I Always,  He Never,  It Will Always Be This Way, are really distortions.    They are emotional distortions that keep us stuck.    I know because I have them too.

Should I have known better?   Done things differently that what I did?    maybe.    but that is judging myself back then with information I have now.    Not really fair.    I did the best I could with what I had then.   Was it perfect?    Nope.    Was it pretty good sometimes?    Yes.   Did I make mistakes?   Sure.   It's okay to relax into whatever place I find myself in today and then figure out how to move forward.

'ducks

I appreciate the replies.  The things I have been doing have helped me.  Gathering information, reaching out to get information about local resources.  My friend even made a comment that has stuck with me.  If he actually does make me leave, it will buy me time.  Means he won't be looking for me and I can execute the means of getting the kids out.

Today I was accused of stealing.  A real silver half dollar and $20 have gone missing.  Of course my brother in law and I are prime suspects.  Then there is no milk for cereal.  Hit "Rewind" button and back to the day of "I'm done with all you people, once I get some wiggle room, you all are leaving".

I was more prepared for dealing with this after talking to the lawyer, my friend, abuse hotline, get local resource information.  I was less shaken, able to stay calm, and focus more on applying the tools.  There were a couple times where he said things like I want to hurt you, I'm going to kick your ass, Just you want until that baby is asleep. 

I'm sitting here in the dark living while he is in the shower.  Taking deep breaths to be prepared for what may come.  Reminding myself to keep a clear head, not spin out of control with my emotions, apply the tools... And hope that this situation stays at a verbal level.  A little worried it won't, but also know where to go if it doesn't.

Are the children yours and not his? If they are shared children, are you anticipating that he will not have access to them once you leave?


When was the last time (calendar) that he hit you... .not grabbed, but hit & hurt?

You have lived with him a long time, so you know his anger pattern. Is he likely to be  heating up in the shower and comeout swinging? If that is his pattern, you should leave now. If not, he is likely cooling down.

Straight question. He keeps saying he will get you out when he can. You indicate you will go if this is going to continue. So why are you there? I haven't followed this story closely, but I thought you said he is waiting for you to give him money so he can do something and he has said when that happens he will kick you out. It's an odd story. Your actions suggest that you don't think he means it.

It really important to get past all this confusing outward (from him, to him) and inward (talking to yourself) communication. You are flooded with mixed messages, mix thinking, etc. When it get calm, you should have an nonthreatening conversation  about his plans. Don't you think?

I think this may really be the beginning of the end.  I was accused of stealing last night.  A silver half dollar and $20.  This is how ridiculous it is.  It's my savings and my money.  Even he said that I chip in my money for everything.  It would be stealing from myself.  

Hit "Rewind", back to the day of... I hate you people, you steal, you lie, I'm done with all of you, I want you all to leave, why have I waited to get food.  Started raising his voice and causing the baby to hide and start crying.  Stopped getting loud because baby was crying.  After kids went to bed, start at it again.  Blamed it on my passive aggressive behavior, me being quiet, not talking, making it so much easier to leave me.  If he finds out he has cancer in his nuts that we all are getting the hell out right then and there.

 I think I'm in trouble.  I can honestly say... I do not care.  I asked, what can I do in this very situation to work this out (something like that).  He said nothing, I don't want anything from you, started in on his insanity speech, didn't want to have this conversation.  I said, okay.  Walked out of the room.  I slept on the couch.  He left it at that.  :)idn't try to instigate any further.  I had to go through then room later to use the bathroom, think he pretended to be asleep.  Then I went back out and sleep on the couch.  This may be a sign that he really is done to because he let it go.  Who knows.

Frankee, you are consumed by the fight du jour (and fighting back). It is not serving you well. It buries you in the trees... .your view of the forest is lost.

You have to get above this emotional quagmire and you have to do it yourself - not try to passively aggressively motivate your husband to do it.

Can you answer my questions.

We are trying to help. All of us, but we need answers to fact questions. We don't want to go down the emotional rabbit hole with you... .we want to help pull you out.

(https://hacked.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Rabbit-hole.jpg)
Come up here with us Frankee!

The youngest one is his, but there was a good at the hospital and his name was left off the birth certificate.

About two and a half years ago, maybe a little longer.

He's usually relaxed after a shower.

I think it's all a bunch of bs.  He says alot of stuff he doesn't mean, doesn't do, doesn't follow through on.


I'm trying to build up the guts to address his threats of leaving.  Like poking a sleeping bear.  He might just attack.  I know it has to be done, but trying to get a calm state of mind.

I really don't want to go down the rabbit hole, I'm just having a really hard time not too.  Thank you for being patient.  I feel I'm slipping into some depressive state.  It scares me that the way I'm feeling is making it really hard to see any way out.   

Thank your for addressing the questions Skip posed.

Can you take some time to think through how you will "address" his threats?  Please post that in detail, perhaps in a different (new thread).

For now, can you stay steady... .?  It appears you are engaging less (perhaps fighting back less is better term) and I think I can see some positive results.  This is still early.

Next time you are doing deep breathing, can you walk around the room and time your breathing to your steps.  (It works for me).

Small steps... stay steady... .let the rabbits go wherever they want.  Good job staying up here with us.  |iiii   You can do this!

FF

Separate question:  Can you explain the story about him waiting on you to give him money, which will somehow lead to him making you guys leave?

No idea if this is significant or not... .will have to understand the story.

FF

Think I might have miscommunicated something some here.  We're in the process of saving money.  We have a shared bank account that both have access to.  The silver is what we both are pitching in, so my comment about being my savings, it's mine just as much as his.

Our original plan was to save it for a down payment, now it's looking less and less like I want to go through with it.  Still trying to decide if I'm wanting to keep fighting for this or if I need to focus more on my exit strategy.

My answers to Skip were a little short because I was crunched for time. 

The situation with the kids.  This oldest isn't his.  He will probably try to argue that he's been the only father he has known, we,ve e lived together long enough to where he does has rights.  The youngest one is his, but something got misfiled or not done properly at the hospital.  His name isn't on the birth certificate.  Lawyer said since his name isn't there, he would have to establish paternity before gaining legal rights. 

I hear in your comments that you're undecided. That makes sense because you have so many responsibilities with the kids. Something to consider is that if you do buy property together, you'll have an additional tie to him and that if you're still undecided, it will make it even more difficult to extract yourself if that's what you ultimately choose.

I felt very entangled in my first marriage. We didn't have kids, but we did have animals, and I was attached to all of them and the idea of losing any one of them broke my heart.

Also we owned property together and shared a business. We were barely making ends meet so I couldn't imagine how I would fare on my own.

Well, he violated a line in the sand I had drawn, big time, and I ended the relationship, not knowing how I would take care of the endless details and responsibilities. I did, one by one, and things worked out, better than I could ever have imagined.

Anyway, my advice to you is to imagine your life in these phases:

1. One year from now
2. Five years from now
3. Ten years from now

No goals, just let your mind wander and think how your life could be, what you want to see, feel and hear. What your children look like as they grow up.

So... .you are both saving money towards a down payment on a house you can both live in... correct?  

When do you think the money will be sufficient for a down payment?

Big breath... just doing some inventory questions which may be a bit personal.

Has there ever been a paternity test or any kind of contest about his parentage of the youngest child?  Is the last name of the child his or yours?  

Are there other forms out there showing him to be the father or is he listed on those as a guardian?

FF

yes yes and triple yes. 

Then look at goals that will take your partners cooperation. 

Then look at goals that could be "sabotaged" by him.

That will help you define boundaries and figure out the wisdom of those plans.

Since you are undecided, there needs to be a "off ramp" to those plans that says, if we split up this is how I continue towards this goal.

Big picture:  Not likely to be wise to make goals that require you two to stay together.  Let staying together be an added bonus.

FF

I think it would be unrealistic think you can exit, take the kids, and cut him out. I wouldn't build my plans based on that.

My questions were only to get an idea of how hard he will have to work to establish his parental rights.

If he is the father, he can establish them. 

It would look odd for you to try to prevent that, given the history you have with him.

I can see in the short run that there could be a lot fewer complications for you because of the birth certificate.

If you leave and ask for child support most people would ask why he should pay if he is not the father, so you will have to "affirm" that he is the father.

I'm not suggesting you go one way or the other.  I AM suggesting that you need to think all of these angles through before making any moves.

FF

I ran out of options.  There is no more future.  He told me to go pick up my oldest child from school because he didn't trust his other half brother to do it.  He had a doctor's appointment I was initially going to go to with him.  I said okay.  Something happened where he started getting aggressive.   

I was standing there, about to walk out the door to leave.  When he started an onslaught of his threats.  It's all my fault, I'm to blame, liar thief, etc.  I stood there and didn't look at him and didn't say anything.  Then I finally said, I'm going to go pick him up, he yelled... don't you dare walk out that f**in door or I will lay your ass out.  Took a deep breath, went to leave and he shoved me, hard.  I stumbled back and almost fell.  I went to leave again and he shoved me harder.  He snapped.  Told me to pack a bag and get the hell out.

I did.  Grabbed a few things, shoved them in a bag.  The whole time he's yelling, carrying on with his threats and blaming.  I get my stuff and pick up the baby.  I give him lots of hugs, kisses, promise I will never leave.  He told me to put the baby down before I hurt him.  I ignored him.  Continued to hold him.  I give him to his other half brother.  His other half brother was there, the whole time.  Never once opened his mouth or said anything.  He was carrying on, said my bus leave at 9:48.  I said okay, knew he was lying, didn't have time to look it up.  I left, walked out of the house.  He grabbed my arm and said, get back in this f*in house, I'm not through with you yet.  I yanked my arm away and said no, you told me to leave.  He said to never come back.

It breaks my heart.  The kids.  I wouldn't try to fight he is the father.  It would just buy me time in the custody.  I'm at the library, not sure what to do.  I've been talking to my friend on our next move.  I'm not abandoning them and I'm not giving up.  My friend knows him and knows that me getting out of the house alive and not on a stretcher is the first step.  She's going to help me get the kids next.  Since his track record of physical abuse, I could see the situation escalating very fast.  Him shoving me was only the first step, me staying there with the heated situation could very well had turned into a bad physical altercation. 
 

There are 13 domestic violence and abuse centers near you. I sent you the information.

You should call the attorney you talked to and discuss the possibility of a restraining order to  get him out of the house until you all can sort this.

 

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