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To add to my already slippery slope, I gave my H a bowl of cereal last night.  I didn't thoroughly clean it.  In my defense, I had already dosed off before being poked awake to get him some cereal.  (Yes he should of gotten it himself, but I didn't want to argue).  Zombie walked into the cold kitchen and rinsed out the bowl from sink.  Got cereal, delivered to H.  H found cereal stuck to the sides halfway through and was immediately grossed out and severely upset.  He of course said I did it on purpose.  I apologized for that (I was really sorry, it was kind of gross). 

That led to how I'm feeding him rancid food, he can't trust me to do anything, wonders what other dirty dishes I've given him (none), can't even eat in his own home.  Asked if I looked up doctors for him to get a physical, he said no before I answered, which the answer was no.  Told me he is done with me, has gotten to the point where a "man" needs to ask himself if this woman makes me happy or miserable.  Then asked me what is he getting out of this relationship, said that he's tired of feeling this way, I always make him mad, miserable.  Telling me he's "stuck" with me for the next X amount of months till we get this house and after that I can be on my way.  Asking me how it feels because now he doesn't give a sh** just like me, congratulations for ruining everything.  I haven't rubbed his back in months.

happy new year right... . 

I got up and went to the restroom.  Heard him still grumbling to himself.  Acted like I was washing my face.  Once I heard quiet, I went back to the room.  One last jab, he said he's going to roll over and go to sleep just like I do and act like he doesn't care.  I sighed and laid there trying to decide what I wanted to do.  I rubbed his back.  Once I hit a sore spot, he asked me to work on that area because it hurt.  So I did.  I rubbed his back until I thought he fell asleep.  I laid back down, he scooted closer and he pulled me close to him and wrapped his arm around me.  *Cycle restarted*. 

I've had this happen before.  This cycle.  I didn't include everything said.  What he is doing and saying is not okay.  It is abuse.  I have every right not to listen to it.  Just because he says it does not make it true.  This isn't the first time he's threatened that he's done, how he's told me that he doesn't want to feel this way anymore, how I can just leave, that I make him miserable, how if I really cared, I wouldn't do the things I do (i.e. give him food in a dirty dish), how now he doesn't care just like me.

So the million dollar question, are they ever really done? 

Oh sweetie. There is a ton of insight in your post. Kudos in particular for noting that, when he subsided and embraced you after you served him in a way he found pleasing, it is the re-commencement of a cycle—not progress.

But why is the question at the end of your insightful post about what HE will do? That orientation, that the ball is in his court, is the enemy.

To confirm your sense: he should not have woken you to fetch his cereal. He should not view your relationship as a commodity, or you as a servant/escort. That lens he applies to your relationship will generate these experiences over and over.

But it works for him. He abusively accuses you of being inadequate—and you immediately try harder to please him. He is getting a huge payoff for this behavior.

So in answer to your question: no, he can keep doing this indefinitely

Frankee,

Please focus on the bold... .

Why in the world would he change something that is working for him?  That really is the crux of the question.  A part for you to understand is that there is no way (that I know of) to change this dynamic without further enraging him.

I hope that makes sense to you, even if you don't like it.  He is getting "goodies", goodies are being taken from him, he is offered goodies again but asked to do more for them in the future than in the past

he is going to ?

(A)  Happily go along...

(B)  :)ouble down on how he got things in the past (rage, fits, etc etc)


OK... what to do moving forward.

Step 1.  :)O NOT MAKE CHANGES until you are ready to be consistent  Being inconsistent is worse than just rubbing his back and getting him cereal... .dirty or otherwise.  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

It is critical that you understand this BEFORE you start making changes.

I'll tell you some of my stories that ended up being successful, to give examples, once you think you have the concept.

FF

Yes.  The extinction bursts.  Had a grip on it and then off it goes again.  I hate when I find myself in this spot.  I lied about something, I gave him a dirty bowl.  Guilt of something I did wrong.  Then it gives him the upper hand and I'm back to Point A where I feel I'm restarting.  I get mad at myself that I'm accepting this guilt and then doing what I can to get back in good graces

Thought that was the answer.  Indefinitely.  *sigh*  I don't feel well (like coming down with a cold) and I've been chewing on this.

Then the questions keeps playing in my head, am I staying with him because I'm afraid of possibly losing the kids in this break up or what the split could possibly to do them?  Or do I really deep down love him and want to try to break the cycle and be a family?

As I sit here and think about it, I do want to makes changes.  I don't want to keep doing this cycle anymore, sick of it.  Then the flip side is part of me feels like it's slowly dying.  Two sides.  One wants to change, get a house in the town we talk about, continue on as a family (hopefully happier).  One side wants to slowly prepare for the inevitable where I end up leaving him and things get worse.

So here I am.  Have insight on certain things, but still wandering around blind to others.  What's even harder to process if knowing the fact that if I move forward and start actually working hard on being consistent, I'm going to be met with resistance, more rages, gaslighting, blaming, accusing of whatever wrongdoings, telling me he doesn't trust me and never will.  A little while back I thought I had started down the path, but I'm feel I'm back at the starting line.  Is it normal to feel like this whole starting over thing?  Part of a cycle that I haven't broken yet... maybe.

   

It's understandable that you are "all over the place".  When things are bad in a r/s with a pwBPD it can be like someone sticking a blender in feelings and thinking... .they go everywhere! 

Instead of focusing on your failures, focus on the steps you will take to move forward toward a healthier, more stable place for you.

Keep it simple, keep it small... .keep it focused.  Only work on one or two closely related things... .let the house in town, white picket fences, songbirds singing during romantic strolls... .let all of those things take care of themselves.

Value and expressions of love:  You like to do acts of service for your husband, he likes you to do them.  Those are all wonderful things.  Nothing to change there.

Your husband speaks abusively, derisively, demandingly  etc etc to you... .you don't like that.  It's bad for you.  Your hubby may not be aware or he may... .but there is NO incentive for him to change... .NONE.

There is stuff to change there.

So... .you are asleep.  He "pokes" you to get up and "demands" cereal. 

you (the new you)

"Ouch!"  Pause.   "That hurt... .I'm so tired.  I need to sleep.  Please allow me some peace and quiet".

blather... demand... .you never... you always... .pink elephants... .crocodiles... .you have a forked tongue... .

just stay relaxed... .don't react.

"I hear you, let's talk later.  Please allow me some peace and quiet to sleep."

perhaps a time or two more.  Then get up and go sleep somewhere else, leaving to a hotel if needed.

Yes... .this goes a little beyond "just the bowl of cereal", but the sleep is a bigger deal than cereal.

Big picture:  When he is nice and respectful, bend over backwards for him.  When he is ABUSIVE... .he "gets" NOTHING from you... .NOTHING.  Especially not an emotional reaction.

FF

There is nothing magical about the exact words I've put down.  I think they would be a good starting point.  Memorization is critical for the first few times, because... .well... because you will likely be as freaked out by the change as he is.

I'm just as interested that you see the "theory" or "thinking" behind my words as a starting point.

Ouch (his actions hurt on many levels... expressing that will be good for everyone)

You then express your needs and directly ask for what you need from him.  Which is simple, because he just has to shut the (blank) up. 

this is not a debate... .it's bigger than a bowl of cereal... .don't let him conflate the two.  Especially when one is a basic human need and cereal (in that context) is a desire.  (I get it food is a basic human need... .but it's one he can handle for himself without causing you pain)

Then... the critical part... .YOU TAKE ACTION to satisfy your basic human needs (in this case sleep)

You do this without trying to control him.  You do your thing... he does his (ohhh... .you can bet he will) and the next day... don't make a big deal about it. 

Wash rinse repeat... .consistency is key.

He will want to talk about pink elephants, crocodiles, aliens, you always, you never... .and you know what... .he can... .just make sure you don't join in or stick around long if he does.

FF

Think about this for a few days... .he will eventually flip out.  It may take a minute... .a week... .or a month, but he will flip out about this.  Your "reaction" is critical.

It's been a while since I've told this... .I'll try to keep it short.

My first boundary...

I used to think that complete openness was the way to dispel fears.  After all "I had nothing to hide... ."  For many people this may work.  Once a PD gets set off... .openness provide ammunition and invalidation.  

My value and boundary was that I was able to have privacy in my email and phone.  I changed the password.  My wife asked, I said no.  She was cool with it for a couple weeks

Well, we were about to "get busy" one night and my wife starts whispering in my ear about don't I want it and all that... .(ummm... yeah... I'm usually up for "it"

Prudes cover eyes... move along.

So, I'm on top and just about to "push into" my wife (yes... sex).  It's not unusual for us to try different things so at first her hand on me helping me "aim" wasn't  a big thing, except she guided me away (made me miss).  About the same time she says (offers) that she will let me "in there" if I give her my password... .(oh yeah... the internal conflict was high... .)  

I luckily was able to stay calm, roll off and rather casually say that didn't work for me... .and just laid there with my back to her for a while... .

Plus... I didn't want to have to worry about my facial expressions... etc etc.  I was scared and shocked because "sexual manipulation" was fairly low in our relationship... especially the pre-sex kind.  

Well... .she huffed a bit... .was quiet for a while and after perhaps 10 minutes... perhaps 20, she acts like it was no big deal... .we had a big sex romp... and it has rarely been mentioned since.

Certainly no attempt like that.

I tell the story to say that senior members had "gotten to me" and explain the importance of consistency and not capitulating.

FF

Some time ago I had a horse who started off really nice (honeymoon phase). Over time, it became obvious she wanted to be the alpha to another horse and she would attack him and bite him when he least expected it.

Then, after she was successful at giving him a look and having him move quickly away, she decided that she wanted to be alpha to me. Knowing how much faster her reactions were than mine, and of course the tremendous size difference, I had to nip that behavior in the bud immediately.

I tend to train animals with kindness, not harshness, but I had to do some behaviors that bordered on unkindness to try and maintain my position in the hierarchy. One morning when I was feeding her, she tried to bite me. It was turning into a warmish day and I hadn't yet removed her blanket. I immediately swung into action and grabbed a rope. I chased her out of her stall, smacking her with the end of the rope and chased her up and down her pasture, making her run, keeping her away from her food. She ran until she was soaked in sweat under the blanket and then I made her run some more.

Finally, she looked at me with pleading eyes, not arrogant eyes, and we were done. I let her walk back into her stall, eat her breakfast and I removed her blanket.

She tried to assert her dominance on me a few more times, but each time it was easier for me to shut it down, often with just a look and my body posture.

I'm thinking that you need to draw the line about what behaviors are acceptable and which ones aren't. If someone were to wake me up and ask me to get them a bowl of cereal, my answer (unless they were under age 8) would be "Hell no!" And if it was my husband, it would be more like, "Go f* yourself!"

The same would apply if he were to be mean to me and then ask me to massage him. Now I'm not saying that you should respond the way I would, but you need to decide what is an appropriate request and what isn't.

Like FF says, he will flip out, but if you continue on this path of appeasing him, it will get worse. No easy answers. Sorry.  

I don't think any of it matters anymore.  I think I'm done.  He had a rant that I don't think I'll ever get past.  This time I mean it.  He has said some unforgivable things, acting like a straight up narcissist, telling me I'm not a real woman, without him my life would be sh**, that after 6 months when he gets this house with my help, that I'm getting the hell out and he's going to tell the boys that I'm dead.  He has a serious complex against woman.

He said I'm turning the kids against him, whisper horrible things about him to the kids, how I'm making him out to be the monster because I sit there calmly while I make him yell, being passive aggressive, patronizing him, I'm a liar, cu**, I ruined everything, he would rather have the boys grow up to be just as evil as long as they aren't liars like me, he's not going to let me ruin their lives like I've ruined his.

I tried to do all the BS tools.  Nothing mattered.  There was false hope sprinkled in through out all of this. He has stamped me a threat to the children, a habitual liar, demonized me.  I don't care anymore.  I have less than 6 months to plan.  I've already talked to my friend.  She's going to talk to some people she knows about what my options are.  Now my focus is too act like I'm not up to anything.  He is an abuser.  I have been told by the abuse hotline people that the most dangerous time can be when a victim tries to leave the relationship.  I'm making plans and I have to be sure he doesn't know what's coming.

As someone who left a violent and abusive relationship, I understand that there is a point of no return. It sounds like you might be there.


Please also get in touch with the local domestic violence people. They can help you with legal matters and other issues that could come up. I'm glad you've got a supportive friend to assist you.   

Wind the clock... .don't make decisions for a few days.

You won't be ready for a few days, so you know there will be a next time. 

Ask yourself... why do I know all those details to post about.  Why did I "not take my ears elsewhere".

The tools are to help divert a dysregulation.    I'm not aware of any tool that will calm down a full blow hurricane... .like you got.

Go to the storm shelter till it blows over... .

Now... .I'm not trying to convince you to stay... or go.  I'm trying to help you be pragmatic and to PROTECT YOURSELF.  You do that by walking away and being blissfully ignorant.

FF

Dear @Frankee I’m so sorry you are going through some hard times with your h. While reading this thread and your previous ones, I want to build on what ff was suggesting to you regarding the tools. There are two components to them; one is consistency and the other is time. It takes time and yes, practice for them to start working. I understand the urgency and dangerousness of your setuation. Yet, I can’t help but notice your proportional emotional reaction to his words. Dear, it takes the non a lot of emotional intelligence to “stop the bleeding” so to say by not reacting and sticking to the tools. I also want to point that it isn’t as emotionally satisfying as retaliating, at least in the moment. In the beginning of my journey, while I was still “hot” every time I used the tools instead of proportional anger if felt like I was letting myself down, and like you write it’s all “bs”. Now, however I’m so deeply thankful to ff, pearlsw, tattered Heart, catfamiliar, ozmatoz and many other members for helping me to get on the “healthier” path. My uBPDh is still very much dusregulating, yet my reaction isn’t proportional to his. Remember, pwBPD are very skilled at manipulation. Why do you think he brings the kids into the fights? Because he knows it’s the shortest way to blow your fuse. Remove yourself from the setuation. You, and you alone have the power to change and untrained him. My favourite one from ff is “I love you and care about our relationships so much so I won’t listen to this nonsense”. He still fumes and spits at me. But I’m not providing any more fuel for him to run on. He knows the boundary. I haven’t changed the major roles in the relationships, I’m still the caretaker and he is still emotionally retarded man child, but his abusive ways of demanding caregiving is very slowly t
ranforming. I won’t  tell you what you what to do, only you know best. Just keep in mind, that even when/if you will choose to leave, you will still need to coparent your children together. You will need the tools for that

The "emotional intelligence" part of the post above is key.  Expressing anger, disappointment and other "negative" emotions is still possible, and I would argue we should still do that with pwBPD, but with them it is more critical than ever to be wise about when we do this.

For instance, my wife lied her a$$ off about details of her brothers trip around Christmas, in an apparent attempt to undo our plans for Christmas.

I stayed the course... .we had a wonderful Christmas.

At some point I will address the "lying". She will flip out... .I'll try to find a time where she has time to process and flip out... without to much "splatter" hitting the rest of our lives. 

That's being wise and smart about what you know is going to happen.

That will also give me time to practice with P about how I will present my disappointment and concern.

"You know, this is the kind of thing that affects trust in a relationship... "   That's my current idea
... .rather than saying "your choices destroyed my trust... .etc etc"

Big picture:  pwBPD have a lot of emotional growing up to do.  Part of growing up is learning to "fill in the blanks", so give them nudges and let them fill in their own blanks... .or not.

If my wife chooses to continue to lie about her family members plans, more specifically her knowledge of them, there is not much I can do about it... other than express my disappointment and concern about how that will affect our relationship.

FF

I'm tired.  Living in a constant state of anxiety and fear.  I never know how much time I have.  I never know when the next time he gets angry will be the time he gives me a black eye or ends up breaking something. 

How much longer?  Just taking my ears elsewhere when he follows me and starts to get physical when I attempt to remove myself.    How do you set boundaries from a person you fear will knock you out if you do?  Being emotionally intelligent when he says he will shove razor sharp splinters under my fingernails and beat me senseless if I harm our toddler.

Then normal. Telling me he loves me.

I lied.  About physical altercations.  I was worried about being judged and hearing stuff like, why didn't you report him or leave back then?  He's gotten physical with me in the past.  One time he punched me in the gut, and made me pass out.  So tell me now about setting boundaries.  Tell me how to walk away from a man who took me out in the backyard, made me get on my knees and threatened to shoot me in the back of the head.  Why didn't I report him or leave then?  I was terrified he would come back for me, shoot me and bury me in the backyard and then murder my family with all the gory details he decided to share.

Should I not let that affect me?  Be emotionally intelligent when he looks at me with dead eyes and says that if I even think about taking away his kids, he will hunt me down, torture me in ways that I never knew possible, and make me wish I was dead. How I should not let it affect me. 

Going to the cops... He's told me to call the cops.  Telling me he would wait as long as he had to and when he gets out, find me and murder me.  What's more dangerous?  Staying and hoping that day doesn't come?  Leaving and hoping he doesn't get to me?

Then tells me he loves me.

Think of Stockholm syndrome.  That's what I was years ago.  Now seeing clearly.  I know this cannot last.

Dear @Frankee,
I’m so deeply sorry, I could not imagine the extent of your abuse. I can’t imagine living in a shadow of a constant physical danger, you are absolutely correct, no amount of boundaries and emotional intelligence can solve this one for you. I applaud you for strength in admitting to the physical abuse you are enduring, it takes a real courage to shine the light on it. Given the severity of your circumstance, it is the best to leave, but I would not leave my children with the same person abusing you. After all, he “loves” you in his own BPD way, who is there to say that he won’t “love” your kids the same way, or even worse to punish you. Reach out to local shelter, and start planning your exit quietly. If, and I feel that he is affiliated with the “underworld”, you can hopefully enter the “victim protection program”. Try discussing it with your da councillor. And please, remember that he might be well connected and crazy enough to follow through with his threats, but there are law enforcement agencies that can put him away and protect you and the kids. I’m sending you a virtual hug, hang in there, we are all here for you to support and listen. I had one member very early on suggesting me an imaginary game. Next time he is there raging, imagine all of us standing there with you. All as one, you are lovable loving and loved dear sister

I hear you Frankee.   

Until you've been the recipient of physical violence, it's all just theoretical. All the times my first husband hit me, knocked the wind out of me, I don't think he wanted to kill me, but he easily could have, had I hit my head on the edge of the bathtub or on a concrete curb, etc.

Knowing that he could rage, I never trusted that I wouldn't be seriously hurt, so I just went limp-rag doll when the violence occurred and prayed that it would be over soon.

So I get it.

When you see clearly, you cannot go back to wishing and hoping. Please get as much help from local agencies as possible. They know what they're doing.   

OK... big breath here.  Zero judgment.  Looking back, I should have done things sooner... different, all of that.

I also realize that we don't know what we don't know (at the time) and we shouldn't be hard on ourselves for what we didn't know.

Also, acknowledge the obvious.   Should have you done something earlier?... .of course you should have.  But with high emotions, lack of sleep and all that I know all too well how hard it is to make a decision.

So... another big breath, please don't "hear" any judgment from me or anyone.  You know that you are in a precarious situation a dangerous situation and you don't want it to end badly for you or your husband.

1.  First of all do you have privacy on your phone and email communications?  Talk to me about how you know it's private.  This needs to be assured.

2.  You need to make contact and understand how shelters work for you where you live regularly and your temp location.  Obviously focus more on your temp location.  I get it you are scared and don't want to divulge your entire story here or there.  Focus on finding out how it works and how you get in contact with them.

3.  I want you to (privately) find out where your local 911 office is (usually it is the sheriff's office).  I want you to ask them about "text to 911"

https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/what-you-need-know-about-text-911

Hopefully your area has it.  I hope they do.

On the one hand I don't want to dissuade you from calling 911 but I want you to understand that if your hubby sees you calling 911, that is likely to be light pouring gas on the "fire" he has.

Much better if you can "text 911" to send help to your address so he is none the wiser until the cops show up, then, let cops deal with him instead of you.

I'm so sorry that you are in this position.  I have been in a similar one, but it was about my kids.  My wife wouldn't stop "corporal punishment".  I stopped because it had gotten out of hand and my wife kept getting meaner and meaner.  Eventually I reported it to CPS and to make a long story short... .my kids haven't been "beaten" since.  Our family was stronger as a result.  

I consulted with lots of people before I did the report... .it felt like my life was ending to report that... .but I got to the place where I knew it couldn't go on.

I think you are there... .or close to there.  You just know... .deep down... something has to change.

We can help you... to a point.  You are going to need local help.

Do you have a therapist YOU see regularly?  

FF

Clarity is critical in these situations... .I'm not criticizing anyone, I think I understand what Snowglobe means.

I think boundaries (specifically boundary enforcement) and emotional intelligence is precisely what is needed and it will solve this.  Solving and having happy satisfied people are very different concepts.

This will be hard... people (including you) won't be "happy" or "satisfied" for a while. 

This is something you are going to have to face, I hope and believe we still have some time to be smart about this.

I also agree that any "leaving" scenario would need to include you and a child.  DV shelters would be much better to coach you about "how" to leave or pick the time etc etc.

I hope you can pick the time, but I want you to be prepared to contact 911 if things get out of hand.

Hang in there.  I will check for your answers soon.

FF

I wholly agree with formflier that boundary maintenance and being Mindful are exactly what is needed here. They are essential to doing what you need to do to keep yourself safe.

I also agree with Snowglobe and Cat Familiar about being proactive in terms of contacting the authorities and local resources, and preparing an exit strategy.

I know that it's terrifying. I had to helplessly watch the father of my grandchild treat my daughter like that. It came down to him actually shooting at her before took definitive action. She, like you, lived in fear of what might happen and that he would carry through on his threats. He's now in prison and the state keeps her informed of all of his parole hearings and all other important information so that she knows what is going and take the necessary precautions.

I know that the DA issued a protective order for her based on past violence because our state takes DV very seriously and understands that many people do not report it when it occurs because of fear. This is common practice.

Also, there are shelters that women and children can go to and their locations are not publicly known so that angry SO's cannot find them to hurt them.

There are resources and options available, but you have to be willing to take the first step and maintain your boundaries.

Please ask your local DV people about this.  Understand they may not tell you where they are or show you until you get into the system (again... they are very protective of these locations)

I was an executive in county government for a while.  There were several locations that agencies used, we went to great lengths for them to appear as everything other than a shelter.

Hang in there... .I'm looking forward to what you learn from local DV agencies and the 911 office.

FF

This is key.  He has connections.  I thought it was make believe, but I've seen it.  He use to run a biker club and has met his fair share of unscrupulous people.  People that I didn't know truly existed until I met him.  Part of the reason why I'm still here.  Being told things that a lot of people don't know about.  I come from suburbia, think like Betty Crocker type family.  To winding up meeting a person who seems to know all to well about criminal activity, ways to make a person disappear, locations (undisclosed to me) where I could of been easily sold to a deviant where I would never be head from again, cartels, giving descriptions of things he has physically witnessed them doing...  

This isn't a sane person.  He has his times where I believed he may have been genuine and once truly loving... but I don't feel it.  My once holding on to hope and telling myself if I only did this and that... it feels dead inside.  I am letting him believe that he has control and everything is okay, because that's what I have to do to ensure I can get out safely.

Frankee, I have been in your situation minus the criminal connections aspect. I really get the emotional journey you’ve been on, including the hope that it could be managed. I respect greatly your recent conclusion that this is not something that can or should be “not taken on board” or allowed to roll off.

Respectfully to the guys who wrote about boundaries—that isn’t a concept that works under these circumstances. Frankee is saying she is feigning compliance for safety. That is a different road than implementing boundaries, which is feasible when one is not in actual physical danger.

Hi Frankee,

I've followed your story on and off since November of last year.   I know this has been an ongoing and difficult time.   I am sorry that things have continued to escalate.     You have been, as you name says, strong about this for a long time.


I am glad you have been talking to your friend, that some one local to you is helping to support you.   I think that's important.

I am really very glad you remember what the abuse hotline people told you, that the most dangerous time is when a victim attempts to leave.   

I think its a good thing to focus on your safety and bring others into your life to help you now.    I want to give you a  |iiii for making those difficult decisions and having those hard conversations.   

While it might not feel like it,  you are doing and taking the right steps.   I know you worked the tools.     That the relationship situation/abuse hasn't gotten better is not your responsibilty.

Over on the coping and healing board there is a side bar that says this:


I accept that I am responsible for my actions, I am responsible to put myself in safe and healthy situations the best I can.    When I find I am not in a safe and healthy situation I am responsible to take appropriate actions to remedy that.

Nothing I can say, do, or forget to do makes me responsible for someone threatening me.   That belongs to them.

I am going to gently encourage you to focus on you.   safety first, then planning.    In a careful, thoughtful way just like you have been doing.

How can we help to support you today?

'ducks

I respectfully disagree. Boundaries work in all circumstances. In fact, they are important and necessary in every circumstance.

Boundaries about about protecting ourselves and our core values. If one of those core values is that no one should be physically violent with another, then we have a boundary. Boundaries are inherent with all core values. Either something falls within the boundary, or it does not.

no one should be physically violent with another | being physically violent

Everything that happens that falls within the green is inside of the boundary (the black line). Everything that is in red is outside of the boundary.

In order to maintain that boundary, we would not allow physical violence in our lives. The boundary is there to keep us safe. It is up to each of us to define and maintain our boundaries.

Does that make sense?

Again, until you’ve been unexpectedly hit by a co-inhabitant with greater upper body strength who possibly outweighs you by 50%, it’s all just theoretical.

Having served as my father's punching bag for 17 of the first 19 years of my life, Also, size doesn't matter. I've had guns pointed at me by my FOO. Knives have been involved. The list goes on. I think that it's safe to say that I understand what it's like Cat Familiar.

There are numerous men on here with stories of the women in their lives attaching and doing physical harm to them. Fear is fear no matter the size of the other person.

To claim that we do not maintain our boundaries because of the size of another only serves to prevent us from looking at the one thing that we are in control of, ourselves.

I think we’re in agreement Meili, boundaries are necessary. However when one is unexpectedly attacked, survival becomes primary.

No argument from me there. For me, the likelihood of ever being attacked without warning a second time would be very slim however. Once I know that someone is capable of such behaviors, I don't allow myself to be in that situation again. Does that mean that I remove that person from my life? Not necessarily.

The reason that stress healthier communication, not escalating situation,  boundaries, and exit strategies around here so much is for self-protection and so that we don't find ourselves in similar situations in the future. We cannot control the behaviors of others, but we can protect ourselves.

If we learn to not engage in invalidation, circular arguments, JADE'ing, when it's appropriate to exit a situation, and the like, we can learn to not allow situations to escalate to the point that we are in danger.

Without a doubt, there are times when something will happen before we know what is going on. But, once we know that is a real possibility, we can take steps to safeguard ourselves against it in the future. Sometimes that means not returning to a location where the aggressor is at. Sometimes it is less drastic. 

Yes. Absolutely!

I had no idea that some of my communication strategies, which to me seemed totally innocuous, were throwing gasoline on the fire. Therefore I found myself in the midst of explosions that were in my mind, completely out of the blue. I'm not saying that I was responsible for that behavior by my ex-husband, but rather that I didn't see the warning signs, nor did I understand how my seemingly innocent words could be interpreted as blaming and shaming.

Because he had very troubling mental illnesses, I finally recognized that the marriage was putting me in peril and I decided I no longer wanted to live with someone who felt that it was OK to be physically and emotionally abusive. I realized that I didn't love him, I loved the man I imagined him to be and who he wanted to be, but not the one that showed up every day.

Frankee, I have done my fair share of snooping in the last 18m trying to work out what is going on with my uBPDw and her lies/behaviour/"special friend". It's not something I feel particularly proud of but I did it and I justify it rightly or wrongly by attempting to keep my family together. Anyway... .that irrelevant. What is relevant is your safety. Things I have done and you need to be careful of:

- any iphone backups on personal computers he has any access to. You can scrape whatsaps, texts, photos, emails, internet history from those files with a free download online.
- notes on iphone which are linked to an email account like hotmail or gmail will sync with that account and can be access on the email account if he has any access to that.
- Old phones that still have access to your accounts can be used to access email and other ex whatsap (only one device at a time is allowed to access that).
- Find my phone on any shared apple accounts can be used to track you when the device is on.
- Google account can be set up to track your location, will record all your internet browsing history.
- Whatsap - huge vapor trail, shows your status when you are online and last seen... .it also shows when other people are online or last seen. Although there's a lot of assumptions involved (and if he's paranoid as I was/am that won't be difficult) he can deduce who you are speaking to on whatsap... .e.g. my W has a "support group" as well as her OM. I see her online and then I see he support group light up like a Christmas tree. Similarly I deduce when she's been chatting to the OM till the small hours of the morning. Telegram is an alternative to whatsap and there is much less vapor trail.
- iMessages are terrible, avoid them. All it takes is an old phone with your i account and he can see all of the messages.
- email - it's a good idea to set up a new one and ONLY use it for very trusted people. Beware of recovering deleted items. It might be deleted and deleted out of deleted items but if he can access say the hotmail account online he can recover those deleted items.
- Make sure you log off and don't store your passwords for email accounts on the PC.
- how safe is the information you are putting on this website? Is there any crumb trail that might lead him here? Do you get notifications sent to email that a post has been updated? Where do personal message alerts go to?
- Small personal tracking devices are easily purchased on ebay, small enough to go in a handbag and certainly small enough to be attached to a car. Bare this in mind if you are planning to visit DV or visit somewhere out of the ordinary.

I don't mean to be alarmist but clearly this is not a safe situation and any information leakage is paramount. There is little point in you painstakingly planning to evaporate if he's fully versed about the plan. Information is VERY powerful.

Frankee, after posting, I just saw that Skip may have started a fresh thread for you:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=318925.0
I like that he asked you to clarify your intent.  In my message below I used quotes from you to say what I believed your intent was.  Hopefully I got it right.  Go ahead and answer Skip's question on that thread, and I'll follow up there.  ~ WW

Cat Familiar and Meili, I think you've come together on the boundaries question.  I think your views are compatible.  If there is a hurricane bearing down on us in Houston, having a boundary does not mean we're smart and powerful enough to stop the hurricane, or responsible for that.  We're responsible for picking up on the storm warnings and heading for Dallas.

Frankee, oy vey.  I am so sorry.  No judgement.  If you talked to survivors who have made it past the abuse, you will hear story after story about how long it took to break free, about the pain and fear of telling people.  I could go on and on.  You are a normal person who has responded normally to extraordinary situations.  Many others, perhaps most others, have responded similarly in similar situations.

A lot has been learned about how to respond to domestic violence in the last several decades.  Things like the point you mentioned about leaving being dangerous.  Another change is an appreciation for the survivor's right and need to be in charge of her own situation.  There is no one-size solution.  You know the situation.  You will best be able to judge when it is time to go to a safe place.  The things you've been doing up until now have made total sense.  You've been learning, you've been trying to save things.  You've seen improvements, which made it seem reasonable to try harder.  I would have done the exact same thing as you.  Heck, I did

So, getting back to that point about you calling the shots, I read through your thread to make sure I understood where you are at, and here are the things that spoke to me on that:
What I'm reading there is some mixed feelings about the relationship, but a determination to get safe.  Am I understanding where you are with this?

For me, my desire to be safe and my desire to save the relationship if I could were all wound up in a ball.  You may or may not have clarity on what you want to do with the relationship.  One thing that helped me a lot to take action was not burdening myself with deciding on the relationship.  I determined to get things safe, and didn't force myself to decide on the relationship.  Your path may be different than mine, if you are feeling unsettled about the relationship, consider whether separating the two problems might help you feel better about taking action to get safe.

I know that even though you've been clear here, you've got a tough and unpredictable road ahead and you might change your mind or feel your conviction waver.  It might even be the smart thing to do -- you might do a ton of learning and realize that you need to bide your time for longer than you thought.  Regardless, it is our job to stand by you and support you nonjudgementally.  No matter what turn things take, do not isolate yourself because you are worried about what we'll think.  This is your show.  We work for you on this.

All that said, I think you're making a good decision.  It might be worthwhile to think to yourself about a couple of the key things that got you to that crystalline decision point.  For me it was a determination not to have my daughter witness the abuse anymore.  For you, perhaps it is that image of kneeling on the lawn and being threatened with death.  Whatever the thoughts or images are for you, they may help you power through any moments of doubt.  You have a right to feel safe.

I want to say three important things to you:

We believe you -- You are living in an environment where abuse is minimized.  He has established it as "normal."  In that environment it is so easy to doubt yourself.  You've got it figured out.  It is abuse.  Keep believing yourself.

We believe in you -- You are strong and resourceful.  You've been around for a while, so this is not just a nice thing to say.  You've shown us.  You have what it takes to get where you want to go on this.  For certain.

Get face-to-face with local help --  the one thing I feel for sure is most predictive of your success, and how quickly/well you get started on your path, is getting connected to high quality local domestic violence help.  There may be a few different official agencies and nonprofits in your area.  Talk to one quickly, but also look around and ask around to see what's out there.  :)espite fantastic help on this board, and a ton of reading, sitting down with a live human, telling her what was going on, and having her believe me, was game-changing like nothing else.  That is when I finally felt like I had traction.  She also knew everyone and provided help I'd never imagined.  She sent me to a banker who gave me a checking account for my emergency fund, waiving the monthly fees and giving me free checks.  And more.  For you, you'll want to find your way to the best person in town for safety planning and exit strategy.  If you ask around, you'll eventually get to the person everyone thinks is the top dog to help with that.

When you talk to the local DV help, it is important for you to give them the specifics.  Ask if they have surveys you can fill out that ask about abuse and controlling tactics he has used.  Make it clear that you are ready to get safe.  My sense, based on what you've said, is that when they triage you like the nurses do in the ER, you'll get sent to the head of the line.  If you end up in a corner with the sprained ankles, you need to work them a bit until you get the help you need.  The specifics will help tell your story.  The part about kneeling in the back yard and being worried you'll be buried in it, not only does that suck and I am so sorry you have been subjected to that, but even in the DV community that kind of detail is a very sobering call to action.  You may also want to take the MOSAIC (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=301379.0) threat assessment survey.  This is a survey agencies use to assess someone's risk of DV tragedy.  I found just answering the questions to be informative.

www.thehotline.org is also a fantastic site, and they offer online chat if it's not safe to call on the phone.  Two pages that might be useful are:
path to safety (http://www.thehotline.org/help/path-to-safety/)
what is safety planning? (http://www.thehotline.org/2013/04/10/what-is-safety-planning/)

OK, you've got a lot ahead of you.  As you start to build a plan, and get closer to an exit, you may find yourself getting more anxious.  That is normal.  You'll have plans you don't want discovered, you'll be envisioning a post-escape dream and won't want to lose it, etc.  It will likely be tough.  We can help support you, along with the local folks.

Can I ask you to keep us up to date on how it goes with the local help?  Let us know if you find someone who you think you can rely on, or if you're struggling to connect?

Frankee, you've got this.  You are not alone.  People here will rally and stick by you.

WW

Wow... .there is a lot of intensity here.  Let's all help point out the primary thing is giving solid options for Frankee to evaluate, because ultimately she will be the person most affected.

I'm a fan of ensuring privacy and evaluating this privately with local DV groups and agencies.

Private preparation is critical.

     To all involved with DV... it does suck to get hit... .even if no physical scars are there.

FF

formflier, one of the drawbacks of my long posts is that they are, well, long   So something like this can easily get lost:


Thanks for calling that out again, since it's important, and buried in my long post.  I asked Frankee to double check my interpretation of her intent, and Skip was wise enough to call it out on a separate thread even.  Asking clarifying questions and letting the discussion evolve is an important approach modeled by our most senior members like yourself and Skip.  With growing experience, I sometimes find myself belaying a long post in favor of this more measured approach.  While long posts carry some risk of missing the mark, I believe they have their place.  That said, you are one of the masters at patiently drawing an OP out and sticking with an evolving situation, giving the right advice at the right time, so I regard you as one of my style guides; I appreciate your thoughts.

The intensity was deliberate.  Homicidal threats from someone with the means to carry them out goes right to the top of the triage list.  I am responding to what Frankee is reporting.  In these situations, there are so many forces that minimize the threat, there is a significant risk of underresponding.  Let's see what Frankee comes back to us with.  She is on the ground, and has full context that we'll never have.  We can shift back to the shorter, give-and-take dialogue, and see where it goes.

WW

No suggestion from me that anyone has done anything inappropriate or unwise.  I think the intensity highlights the seriousness and I'm glad all can acknowledge the intensity.

My background:  Many times when emergencies break out in an airplane... .taking a few breaths ... ."sitting on your hands" and evaluating is a wonderful thing... the best thing.

Especially when "this just in" information would seem to "change everything".  

Usually there is a worse outcome in an airplane from doing some wrong in a hasty fashion than for doing something right but a little too slow.  

2l2s is still alive in her current situation, she is a survivor and seems to get that a change is the most dangerous time.  So... .let's be really wise and deliberate about evaluating that before making the change.

 |iiii

FF

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case, size and strength play a huge factor.  He has the ability to snatch me up and crush my windpipe with one hand if he really wanted to kill me.  I've been lucky before where he doesn't exert his full strength.  I've seen him take down men twice his size when they were horsing around.  So yes, size and physical aspect take big play into my situation.


I do have mixed feelings.  I never wanted this.  I never planned for this.  I stayed with him because he showed me that side that was protective, loving, attentive, caring, called me sweet love names.  Then I started seeing the other side.  I excused it because of the things he had been through.  I was walking in FOG for a very long time.  The day I sat in the bathroom, crushed, crying, feeling so much pain, enough to where I thought about how to make it stop for good.  Was the day of clarity.  I knew I couldn't keep doing this. 

The last time he raged at me, it was a smack in the face (figuratively).  Him threatening to throw me out, not let me see the children, and a key comment... I have found myself in a situation that I wasn't prepared for.  Him telling me that seemed to hit the core.  He's right.  If he decided to follow through one of these times, I really was unprepared.  The way I feel is uncomfortable because it's new.  I still have the fantasy of us staying together, being the happy family in our new town.  It's something I was holding on to for hope.  It's a dying dream though.  I've been preoccupied more and more with ways to get myself out.  I even went extreme and contacted an amnesty hotline from Canada.  That's how scared I am to leave.  I feel the only way to really be safe is to leave the country.


I really appreciate that.  I always worry about setting my mind to something and then seeing my steam fizzle out, get detoured, feeling like I'm doing the wrong thing.  Then getting the question of why are you still in that situation?  Why haven't you taken action?  Why has your mind switched? 

The worse thing I am battling with feeling that I still love him, or at least the memory of the man I remember he was.  Then I feel like I have been conditioned to feel this way because of the patterns he's exhibited.  The rage, anger, intimidation... followed by calm, acting normal, showing affection, saying he loves me.  I shouldn't feel these times of affection as important because they are a break from the rage and hate.

I will keep updated.  The fact that I spewed out the physical altercations is a red flag for me that I've had enough.  I tried so hard to focus on current issues and ways to cope/deal/manage whatever in my situation.  It's just now, every time he gets angry or mean about something... it feels more like a little push in the direction I'm going.  Normally I would bounce back an attempt to apply tools and work to fix it.  I tell myself... keep pushing me you jerk, just making this easier every day.

Wentworth, I thought your post was beautifully compassionate and heartfelt. There truly are strong motivations by both the perpetrator of violence and the recipient to minimize how damaging it is. (I know. I did that myself.)

Also, until I finally confessed the true reality of my relationship, NO ONE EVER KNEW! They thought we were a happily married couple. It wasn't until I heard my relationship described as "idyllic" that I finally snapped and set the record straight.

And from my experience, there are many points along the road where one might examine the pros and cons of remaining in the relationship. However, when one finally reaches a breaking point, there is no going back. Only Frankee knows how she feels about the process.

Frankee, it feels like you are doing a great job of using Wise Mind, balancing your heart and your brain on this.  Take some time to work through it, as formflier advises.  If you feel your determination start to harden, keep using the tools to buy yourself time.  When my resolve stiffened to take action, I became less tolerant of my wife's abuse, stopped validating, talked back a couple of times, etc., and the rising heat might have raised the risk.  You are going to have to gauge how much time and space you have to work things through.  You might have quite a bit, which is good, but trust your gut if you sense the risk level rising.  I liked what formflier said about planning in person -- the local folks know the local conditions, they can help you in a hurry, and planning with someone in person avoids the risk of having your plans on a computer.

WW

Frankee,
There's no way in the world that we could ever be prepared for our partners turning on us in violent or verbally abusive ways. It's not something that we would do, so it's hard to imagine that the person we love could do this to us.

I also made excuses for my ex because he was abused by his step-dad until one day when he was big enough to fight back. I don't know if his step-dad was just trying to use corporal punishment or was really violent. But beyond those experiences, within him there existed many mental illnesses, which over time have manifested in unmistakeable ways. He was arrested for assaulting his next wife and fled the state before his arraignment. A nephew has kept me informed about other dysfunctional patterns he's exhibited over the years.

I'm telling you this because I shouldered much of the blame and responsibility for his dysregulations while he was married to me. And now it's obvious that those same patterns keep occurring without me in the picture.

He's blamed you a lot for "lying" or simply omitting information that you thought might trigger him. Is it any wonder that you've done that when you're afraid of his response?

My ex constantly undermined my self-confidence and my self-esteem. He told me how incapable I was, how stupid I was, how much I needed him because I couldn't do it on my own. After I left him, I discovered all those ideas were lies he told me to try and keep me under his control.

You're smart. You're resourceful. And you've got a lot of things to think about at the moment. Please keep posting here so that we can help you talk about your feelings.

Of course you still love him. You wouldn't have been trying so hard to work things out if you didn't. The question is more about your future. How do you imagine the next five years?  

I understand your point on that.  I didn't talk about the abuse, the treatment.  People think that everything is okay.  Only about three people know the some of the truth, one of those know the full extent of it and I have come to find out has seen some of this behavior.  She was scared to talk about it.  So I have found out that I am not the only one who has witness such things.

I wasn't ready.  I keep telling myself, once I start talking about what's going on, that's when I know I am reaching my breaking point.

The relationship is going to get better, or conversely, you are not going to safely exit it if you are waiting for an emotional crescendo to blast you into action.

This cold war that you are in is destructive and unhealthy. You are not the only person to get ensnared in a destructive relationship pattern... .but the reason to come to a support group is to untangle that massive ball of twine; the ball of frustration, past resentments, mixed emotions, and day to day volatility.

The first step to going forward in any direction is to get beyond a vision that is heavily clouded with resentment of the past, day to day frustrations and triggering, and a partner who is rough, and moody and emotionally difficult.

It's time to untangle that massive ball of twine. It's am intellectual exercise - you don't need to take action - its more about laying down the emotional thinking for a little while and trying to sort matters out... .get a clear vision of your life.

I really need that... Real clarity.  The times it seems like I have it, isn't consistent.  It's down times like now where it's calm, no rage, no abusive talk, actually using manners... It throws me for a loop.  It's damaging my ability to form a clear thought. 

The anger, rage, threats, wondering if this time is the real breaking point where he actually does snap.  I can't even remember what the trigger was.  Normally I have a general idea, but this time... Complete silence on any idea.  Now, two days later... Normal.  Carrying on like he never said any of those things.  I get it that's it what they do, but I just snapped this time, like he just pushed me over the edge and that was it.

Use downtime... .calm time to do what you can to recharge and to plan/prepare. 

Lots of ideas have been put up there.  I saw an idea about going to Canada. 

I'm not encouraging or discouraging that idea, but want to help you understand such a move will take planning.

Passports.  If you have them, do you have them for your son?  Do you have access to them?  Can you get a passport privately?  (I could probably think of more things)

Then there is a legal aspect.  You would want to understand from a US lawyer the impact and you would want to understand from a Canadian lawyer the impact. 

Since your safety is involved, there is no place for assumptions

Keep posting and taking steps... .  Some days the steps may be very small.  Other days big ones.   

You can do this.

FF

Hi Frankee

There has been a lot of good things said in this thread.
   

Talking about these things, sharing them with others is how we move forward.   Writing things out here is a great way to gain clarity.   It also helps to defuse from the stress and tension of the moment.

It's understandable that writing things out will stir up emotions.    It does for all of us.  There is no right and wrong to feelings.    Feelings just are.   Still what has proven to have the best results is to take that emotional intelligence that people are talking about, and begin to pull the feelings apart from the events around them.


In the other thread that you have going Skip said this:


Can you tell us more about the physical part?    How has that been recently?

'ducks

When I worked in addiction services some 20 years ago now, a lot of the focus on the person seeking help was they had to reach their 'rock bottom.' I remember thinking, but that might be too late, why can't we work with them now.

Often with DV there is focus on a particular incident that changes everything when in reality every incident is that 'particular incident' when you're living that life.

My situation is not similar but I did feel trapped to the point of inaction when I first came here. I wasn't in a situation where I felt I could just up and leave so I learnt to make plans and whilst making plans I made the very best use of the tools that I could.
I realised very quickly that disentangling myself from our existing patterns of talking to each other would and did decrease the intensity and frequency of my husband's dysregulated behaviour. My husband was never physically abusive, but his behaviour was out of control, add in delusional and paranoid thinking and it was an explosive mix.

Because I couldn't up and leave, I like Skip says started untangling the ball of string. Letting go of past resentments, old patterns of behaviour and read and reread what Radical Acceptance really means.

My h got worse but not with me, he just deteriorated to the point for him of needing long term hospitalisation.

You don't have to make any massive life changing decisions all at once on any one day. The key issues are keeping you and your children safe while you slowly unravel your ball of string. And also having a Safety Action Plan for when you recognise that things are just too risky to manage by yourself.

Do you have an idea of what your Safety Plan might look like, and that can be in action whilst living in the house?
Are your children aware of the DV, are they equipped with the necessary plans to know what to do if there is an emergency?

Thank you for all the replies.  I appreciate the understanding about not being able to up and leave, letting go of past resentments, not having to make a massive life change.  It makes me feel better and not in "urgent" mode.  

I still can't help feel that a giant wedge has just been staked right through this relationship.  I feel so frustrated because of the things he has done in the past.  Then three days ago or so, making me genuinely feel like that was the end of it and I was in a situation I wasn't prepared for.  

I use to refer to it as a rollercoaster ride.  The best way to described the last three days, is like jumping off a bridge, then thinking your bungee cord is broken and falling to your death and last minute get bounced right back up.

I've gotten a list of contact information for local DV places.  Already talked to a lawyer about my situation.  Found a couple loop holes that will work to my benefit.  Got some information from the abuse hotline about address confidentiality program, guide on talking to kids about DV, and self care tips for abuse survivors.  I'm trying to figure out where to store some grab bags in case I have to suddenly leave the house.  I even asked the lawyer if he could call an amber alert on me if I took the kids and ran.  The kids are 7 and almost 2.  I haven't made anything know to them yet.  The two year old will just go where I go.  The 7 year old will be more questioning.

I feel one of the best thing I can do right now is get knowledge, information, and talk to local resources.  If that situation happens again, I won't be nearly as rattled by the realization of being unprepared.  I read about radical acceptance and it makes sense.  Applying it is a little more challenging.

*mod*

For those not from the US and/or who do not know, an Amber Alert is America's Missing: Broadcast Emergency Response (https://www.amberalert.gov/). It is used in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, Indian country, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and 22 other countries in child abduction situation. ~Meili

Is this the situation you are referring to:

Yes.  Not the first time I've had this kind of speech, just varies a little bit in the context.  But same idea.

How long would you imagine it would take someone, with consistent effort and good therapy... .change this type of behavior and the outlook on life that drives it?

FF