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I am struggling with our oldest child.  He's been acting defiant, not listening, temper tantrums, shouting, getting loud, refusing to do as told.  He's not a teen yet.  I'm struggling so I did some reading.  Halfway through an article something seemed familiar.  

Children act out in rage when their feelings overwhelm them.  Unexpressed fear, insecurity and frustration tend to drive a child’s urge to be destructive or aggressive.

Children don’t want to be violent; it’s scary for them when they lash out.  But they can’t self-regulate without our help, which often entails physical intervention, while  responding with as much calm confidence and empathy as we can muster when they do lash out.

When a child carries a backlog of unresolved emotions, they tend to have a low tolerance to stress and even small requests, challenges or obstacles can feel overwhelming to them.  They may be happily playing one minute and suddenly a small disappointment sparks a strong reaction.  

The feelings beneath a particular act of aggression may stem from past experiences and may be completely unrelated to the current situation that triggered the reaction.  

As difficult as it is for parents, it’s exactly this tendency to over-react that is the external indicator of a child’s internal conflict that needs to be addressed.  

Ultimately, they need to see that we’re genuinely willing to remain patient as they work to offload all the big feelings that have previously built up.

Am I reading about my child acting out... or my H and his behavior... ?

You are reading about both...

This has been my S6 for the last months and I feel like I’m losing the battle... .it kills me to see him struggling with his emotions so much.

Good luck Frankee!

It's like... we have the regular version... than a mini me version.  I know that certain phases that kids go through the emotional changes.  It sucks sometimes.  I think my H amplifies our son's episodes.  He's seen his dad react poorly.  I talked about the difficulties I'm having.  He was actually responsive to my concerns.  Reassured me that it was a phase and that our son loves me and we'll work through it.  I'm a little worried that this will come back and bite me.  Seems to be a running theme that when I voice concerns or appear to complain, he uses it against me when he gets angry.  I guess we'll see.  Can't keep quiet forever.

Hi Frankee, that is fantastic that you are reading about things.  When I look back at the years when I was going better or worse at handling things, the more I was reading, the better I seemed to be doing.  The reading helped challenge me to look at things in new ways.  When I wasn't reading, I just kept turning the crank and doing more of the same.

There's a book you might find useful, though it has an unfortunate title that really doesn't describe how broad it is.  It's called, "When Daddy Hits Mommy," by Lundy Bancroft.  It should really be titled, "When Daddy Doesn't Treat Mommy and Everyone Else with Respect."  The discussion of physical abuse is an aspect of the book, but not the main point.  It speaks directly to the experience of raising children with a man who is not respecting and supporting the mother, and it does so with a very supportive tone.  One of the things it speaks about is children's reactions and behaviors, which made me think of it with respect to this thread.  Like everything else, use what you can and leave the rest, but I think you might find it worth a read.

Best,

WW

I use to do that.  Keep turning the crank.  I do like to information gather though.  If I don't understand something, I read and research.  I don't know how many times my H would ask if I knew the meaning of insanity.  Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.  Of course he was saying I was doing that.  I switched up my reponses.  That threw him for a loop.

That is a pretty messed up title.  You don't have to hit to show disrepect.  I feel it at times.  The way our oldest talks to me.  I see his dad peeking out from behind the words. 

I tried something different today.  I woke up our oldest for school in a happy playful tone.  At first he got mad for being woke up.  My first reaction was to snap and tell him stop doing that.  I instead responded with more playful undertone and keeping an upbeat attitude.  It wasn't easy.  I was tired, I hate mornings because of the stress and craziness, our youngest decided to hijack my entire make up bag and stick it under the faucet while I wasn't looking.  The outcome was good though.  He got up, got ready for school, brushed his teeth, got his shoes on, and we were actually early to school.

Sounds like more reading and researching is the right medicine.  I can't force anyone else to change.  All I can do is work on myself.  Change myself for the better and hopefully the rest will follow.

Hi Frankee,

I thought I'd share some information from the co-parenting board... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.msg1331459#msg1331459

You might want to post over there sometime if you haven't already there are many members there both still married and divorced dealing with similar issues.


My question is... .is he being heard?  It may be that he is acting out so he is seen or heard.  Negative attention is still attention.  A really good tool is validation... .validating how he is feeling so he feels heard.  The link I attached talks more about this.

As a defiant, rebellious teen, up to and including running away, myself I attended a "Communication Workshop" in High School. One of the exercises we did was imagine each parent coming in and sitting in the chair in front of us.  In my case my imaginary mother sat down and yelled at me and my father showed up in a suit with his briefcase.  What was I getting at home a lot of yelling and criticism from my mom and my father was working all the time and not available.  Who was listening?  My mom was yelling... .my dad was absent. 

I'm not saying this is the case with you but it is worth taking a look at.  How much are you listening?

Panda39

Just so you know the big picture, this was likely invalidating.

Your youngest woke up and was mad... .you were happy.  Clash... invalidation.  You kinda upped the ante on it too.

Likely better.  Validate and point out what you see... .and let him know he can feel and be that... .he just needs to keep going.

"Oh my... .I see a frown.  Are you upset at waking up?"  listen... .  "It's ok to be upset at getting up.  Now... let's get those teeth brushed.  "

The feelings can be valid... and he can keep going.

Validate when he is happier too.  "Oh my... .there is that smile I like... ."

Hope this helps.

FF

formflier, I think you're referring to Frankee's youngest, when she was referring to her oldest.

For a young child, acknowledging and validating their emotions while teaching them to recognize their emotions is a big part of us helping them to develop.  It's actually a good thing to do with everyone, but with an older child I think there's more room for different approaches, though I still appreciate formflier's caution about invalidating.  If it's a pattern -- that every time the person (of whatever age) expresses distress, we act happy and expect them to -- that can have a detrimental long term impact.

But I also very much appreciate what Frankee was doing.  In an abusive household, where I'm trying to teach respectful behavior by example and I'm seeing disrespectful behavior in my D12 that looks a lot like her mother's behavior (which looks a lot like a 12 year old's behavior, go figure), I have done the exact same thing.  Managing my reaction, and not getting angry or defensive, I react to an outburst with warmth and affection, and sometimes a playful tone.  I return disrespectful treatment with respectful treatment.  That's Plan A.  It often works, and if it doesn't, I still feel it's a win to have modeled respectful behavior and refusal to participate in a fight.  If the next volley from D12 is still sour, I'll stay positive, but add a little bit of tongue-in-cheek humor or an ever so slight edge encouraging us to get back on track.  Generally, I'll give it two attempts, and then if that doesn't work, I'll give her space.

To pull everything together, I'd say if the child's treatment of me is not age-appropriate -- if it's reasonable to expect better control and more respectful treatment from someone of their age in a given situation, then I'm working it much like Frankee did.  I'm not going to validate a behavior that violates a reasonable expectation of respectful treatment of me or another person.

WW

There is a danger that we anticipate our children developing BPD traits just because there is the genetic and environmental circumstances with which they MIGHT develop. I regularly find myself observing 2 people acting like a 9yr old, having a full on "what have you done to me" argument in our home... .it just so happens that one of the players happens to be 38. If a teenager wakes up and is in a grump... .well that's teenager behavior. If a 9yr old is being catastrophic saying their Christmas jumper is the worst ever and they won't be able to attend any Christmas events because they look ridiculous in their Christmas jumper... .well that's just 9yr old behavior.

We want to be proactive in fighting the potential onset of BPD traits... .why wouldn't we since we've all seen first hand the damage it causes. I still think it's appropriate to penalise inappropriate behavior after all they are children and we are expected to parent them, we are expected to be the consequence for inappropriate behavior in preparation for being an adult. We are not expected to be the consequences for our pwBPD, we cannot put them on the naughty step, stop their pocket money or ground them as this is abusive when directed towards another adult. With regards to behaviour that doesn't breach any kind of boundary and therefore requiring discipline I find the "I AM MAD" (When Hope is Not Enough) works very well. There is no reason why me as an adult who can regulate my mood should mirror a childs mood by being in a grump just because they are. I think it's important to ensure that they know their mood is their mood and theirs to regulate, not mine.

Yes... .but... .

I'm sort of coming out of BPD mode and talking a bit more generally about parenting and developing emotional "safety" or "trust" with kids.

There is nothing "wrong" with your quote when looking at teaching someone they can do it on their own... .that is a worthy parenting goal.

There is another goal where we are teaching our kids; what it is like to be vulnerable, to trust others with their emotions and when to not trust others with their emotions.

"More often than not", it's likely a good idea to "step into your kids emotional world" and see things through their "lens".  "Yep... not much sleep... .getting up looks tough... .I see how this sucks for you... ."  Linger for just a minute and then express confidence in them that even with all these challenges... .they will be able to forge on... .that you believe in them, that you "get" them.  This doesn't have to be a long drawn out process. 

Kid's and people in general understand who the people are that will crawl down in a deep dark scary emotional hole and be with them for a while... .versus people that will look down on them and say... ."you should just climb out of that hole... "

Think big picture... getting out of bed "really doesn't matter", they will sort that out.  But, if you can "make emotional safety deposits" while helping them conquer getting out of bed, perhaps they come to you when they think they are pregnant, or have gotten someone pregnant, or have a crisis in life that doesn't seem solvable.

Last analogy:  Getting out of bed is a "tactical engagement".  It's critical you relate your tactics to "winning the war".  In this case the "war" is getting a child to adulthood with an understanding of how to express and deal with difficult emotions and how to sort out who they can safely share with and who should have boundaries.

Thoughts?

FF

I appreciate the diverse responses.  I guess I should had mentioned that the three mornings before when he woke mad (seems he's just not a fan of being woken up), I tried different approaches.  One more I ended up almost having to drag him out of the house because he was acting like dead weight.  He didn't want to wear underwear.  I didn't handle that morning very well. 

I've been trying to be more aware of my interactions with my children.  I keep hearing that this is a critical time (especially for our oldest child).  When he tells me things like I need to calm down or that everything is going to be okay, really doesn't make me feel very good.  It does in some sense, but not as a parent.  I see that he is very receptive to moods, attitudes, etc.  I don't want him to be the one to tell me to calm down or everything is going to be okay.  I should be able to tell myself to chill the hell out and be the one telling him that everything is going to be okay.  Setting examples. 

He should feel safe at home and be able to express his emotions in a non harmful way.  He likes it when I act goofy.  I get him to laugh and smile.  He may have woke up mad, but at least that morning, he was laughing within minutes.

I guess this was my point about determining what is and isn't "normal" childhood adolescent behaviour. We look at the childish behaviour of our children and see BPD, but this is because pwBPD have childish emotional responses to things. A son that gets crabby when he's woken up and turfed out of bed is not abnormal, and I'm sure he sees no good reason to get up and out, as much as he sees no reason to wear underpants. As a parent it is appropriate to show and sometimes force upon your son that as adults or trainee adults we have to drag our sorry backsides out of bed even when we don't want to and get on with a responsible life. I think FFs post suggests you offer cheerful empathy whilst being assertive, "come on big man, I know it sucks getting up but it's gotta be done"... .then walk out, if he isolate for school he will be told off... .

I can understand that it's unsettling when your son becomes emotional support for you, I'm sure it doesn't sit well with you. Do you see this as a sign that your son is very emotional or that he is becoming emotionally intelligent? Do you feel that he is acutely aware of the dysfunction in the house and might be adopting an inappropriate role in the family dynamic? Families are a delicate balanicing act, members can adopt compensatory roles to keep the equilibrium and household harmony. Another option may just be that he is growing up and becoming protective of his mother, he is growing into a man and gaining valuable manly attributes of being a protectorate. You are precious to him, mums are like that. Could you talk to him about those conversations, clarify what he's feeling and let him know you are open to talk about it? If he was concerned about the family situation it could be better for him to discuss it openly rather than it being the inspoken problem. If he has feelings about what is going on, this is where you really can't invalidate his feelings and observations. He knows what he knows and sees and hears what he hears, brushing it under the carpet will not make those feelings go away.

This is likely invalidation....

You at that point don't feel like it's going to be OK... .to have someone suggest otherwise is off putting.  As opposed to someone who comes along side you and says... ."whoa... .this is a mess... ." and your're like "yeah... .it looks to be getting worse... " to which he says "Yeah... .I see that.  I'll be here with you"

 Invalidation is a powerful... powerful thing.  In my relationship, once I got it identified and learned how to avoid it, paranoid stuff basically went away. 

So... .FFw  "I think you did the nasty with the lady with that baby... and that means that baby is yours... "  In the old days I would "prove" that the baby wasn't mine and I wasn't around to do the nasty with the woman.  Rationally... .I thought that her "knowing" that I didn't make a baby with a woman would make her happy... .what it did is INVALIDATE her feeling that I had done that.

1 invalidate can equal 10 good validations... perhaps more. 

Yes... it's a little bit of a leap to go from invalidation on the order of a pwBPD to invalidating a child, but the theory holds true.  If you train yourself not to invalidate... .that is awesome.  If you train yourself to validate and empathize with the emotions of others... that is super duper awesome.

Last thought on dealing with kids.  From a religious perspective  grace comes before truth.  From a psychological perspective, many peoples "hearts" need to be softened so they can "hear".

Many children will be more obedient, respectful, successful if you can deal with their emotions first... .soften first... .connect first... .then let them experience the "truth".  That you have to get out of bed... .wear underwear, wipe your a$$... .or any number of things that adults tend to learn during their childhood.

Personally... with a hard to get out of bed child, I do the "connect thing", let them know the consequence is coming thing (usually a squirt gun or glass of water), and then let them know I respect their choice either way as I dump water... or squirt.

Then... .very nonchalantly offer that "perhaps they'll figure out a better way tomorrow... "

I have the benefit of 8 kids around... .the older ones get it.  When the younger ones buck up from time to time I take down my "magic mirror" or crystal ball and the group gathers to peer into the future.  The question is... .does Daddy prevail or the disobedient child?  Usually by then the disobedient kid is kinda sheepish and it all goes away.

:)

FF
 

I'm not really sure which route I think he's taking.  When I mentioned it didn't make me feel good, it wasn't really about him invalidating my feelings.  I felt more like, hey... your 7 year old is telling you to calm down and it will be okay.  What kind of example am I setting for him where I'm acting all strung out over... what?  Why was I even acting that way?  Tired, stressed, upset from something that happened with my H?  I felt like he poked me out of frustrated state of mind.

I think it is a good idea to talk to him about his thoughts and how he feels about things.  He seems to be aware that there is something not setting right. 

He spends time with his grandparents usually three to four times a year.  It's my parents and they are what are considered normal suburban family home.  Two story house, big back yard, says hiya neighbors... kind of people.  They don't have the kind of dysfunction we have at our home and my mom reminds me of like Betty Crocker, homemaker, stupid silly wierd, drives my dad crazy, but they have that old time love...

Anyways, my point is.  He sees the difference.  I know my house isn't like my parents.  I know there is dysfunction that he sees.  When we moved, I was relieved.  I always felt like I was scrutinzed by my parents for the way I was raising our oldest and felt the disapproved of a lot of things I did, or rarely passed up the opportunity to tell me how they think I should handle or do something.  I know that they did it with good intentions, but we all know how bad good intentions can turn out.  They would always tell me I'm a good mom, etc.  It's just I felt that I was always living short of their expectations.  I really do not want to pass that feeling on to our kids.  I want our kids to not feel they aren't living up to imaginary expectations or that what they decide to do in life will be a discouragment (assuming they don't turn out to be serial killers or psychopaths of course).

You are setting the example for him that you are human and your have feelings and get distressed about things, just like everyone else... .no big deal. 

Pivot a bit and thank him for his concern and perhaps use it as a bit of a teaching moment.

Teach him about validation and empathy sort of in a "perhaps there is a better way next time to show concern... ."

How does all this fit into BPD land?  It's important to teach kids they aren't perfect, people aren't perfect and stuff happens.  Emotions are felt and sometimes spill over onto others in ways that aren't helpful.

That's what apologies are for... then move on.

You are making it very matter of fact to remove shame from "messing up".  Honestly, I try to teach my kids this is just part of life... .it's not really "messing up"

Thoughts?

FF

What I’m getting from Frankee’s posts is less a question about skills on the part of her kid or her, and more a concern about what her kid is experiencing or perceiving, and the effects on him.

Frankee, I think you’re doing well to process the insights coming directly or indirectly from your son’s vantage point. Sometimes things that are hard to see for ourselves get assimilated because they have to do with our kids’ well-being. I think it’s great that you are pausing to take seriously what he’s saying to you and what it means.

Thank you.  That was actually may main concern.  The effects the dysfunction in the house are having on him.  No matter how bad I feel I am messing up, I want to do the best I can to make sure they grow up to be healthy mature men.

being in a hurricane and being told it's light breeze seems to be the sure fire way that cycle is perpetuated from generation to generation to generation. Not invalidating your children's sense that things aren't right. Yes this might cause them some emotional discomfort but their discomfort isn't going to go away just because you deny what is staring them in the face.

Enabler is right on, from all the research I’ve done and from my child’s self-reported experience with similar dynamics. Even if you can’t change the situation all at once, acknowledging it to your son, and affirming that he is not crazy—and importantly, also, YOU are not crazy and can see it too—is the foundation of his stable world right now. You and he mutually affirming what is true is a very important starting point and a great gift you can give him.

My daughter, now in her teens, has stressed how essential it was that, when she noticed something wrong or damaging about how her dad behaved toward me, it was acknowledged and not minimized (by me, I mean, not him). She says before she worked up her courage to talk with me about it first, she thought she might be crazy or imagining things—because I was SO adept at normalizing and smoothing over.

Eventually, her dad turned his manipulative skills toward her too, and she was well equipped to not take all that stuff on board because we had already reached an agreement that that is what it was and that it was not OK.

That has been reinforced for me on these boards over and over by people who grew up with an abusive parent—they often talk about how much they needed and wanted the other parent to acknowledge the wrongness and severity of what was going on.

The spirit of your original post and the research you are doing is wonderful and important. Your kid sounds great BTW.

A comment from my FIL 6m ago which envolked internal rage towards him (he is a lovely man but NEVER once stepped in to protect my wife from my MIL fury).

Me - how do you deal with MILs angry outbursts towards to FIL? How do
You stop yourself from being angry back?

FIL - oh enabler, I know she doesn't mean it

Well my W sure as hell didn't know she didn't mean it and was not emotionally equipped to realise her mother has physiological issues, so now I'm dealing with the fallout of his inability to say "this is not at all cool".

Stopping the behaviour and avoiding it being the elephant in the room are 2 totally different things. If you are able to have the discussion or direct him to someone he can have the discussion with would be hugely beneficial if nothing else so he doesn't doubt his own sanity in the way that many of us have.

Hi Frankee, I was thinking of you yesterday.  D12 gave me some attitude that was typical 12 year old attitude, but it sounded a heck of a lot like abuse from my wife.  It started to trigger me, but I reminded myself it was tween speak, and let it roll off me.  Took a bit of effort, though, which reminded me of the good work you are doing.

Best,

WW

I understand Frankee to be saying (see research quotes in the initial post) that she suspects/intuits that it is NOT tween speak and it is not something to let roll off, but rather, reflects a legitimate anxiety on the part of her son about emotional tension in the household.

There are a couple concepts that seems to be floating around here.

1.  Listening and validating a child's feelings.  In my experience and from my family T, most important for me and my family.  I was an "instructor" to my kids and not a very good listener.  In other words, I would listen to understand the problem then tell me kids "the better way" and I would expect them to "feel" better because their problem had been solved.    My background:  I was not invalidated as a child, however I wasn't particularly validated either.  Accomplishing things was praised.  Yes I had strong feelings and was allowed to express them, but they weren't focused on or explored.

And... .no matter what you are feeling, there are things to get done.  Big praise for getting stuff done.


2.Instructing a child.  Perhaps instructing them in navigating dysfunction. 


3  Building trust with a child.  The kinda trust where a child comes to you and says, something happened to me, I'm not sure if it is ok.


All of these things are important, it's a shame they have to be ranked.  It's probably not helpful to try and rank them here for everyone because backgrounds are so different.  Which is why a trained, in  person T, is so critical. 
 
For me, #2 was clearly my number 1... .I could instruct a child, teach them big picture lessons, especially in a farm setting.  I would even pause, briefly, when a favorite horse (goat, chicken... etc etc) died and we should share the emotional moment.  However, at the heart of it, my goal was not to listen and understand the emotion, my goal was to teach my child that "these things happen" and you have to soldier on.

So, a large part of my parenting work was to focus on listening, validating, and "entering into my child's world" to understand my child and erecting a barrier against instruction.  Sure, I would take mental notes, but would wait a few days to suggest "A better way"... .even then it's a "perhaps".

The "fruit" from this new approach is amazing.

I could see some people being the type that "listen" to their kids and rarely instruct.  Perhaps they need to be almost the opposite of what I did.

Anyway... .I hope this illuminates my advice some more.  I hope this gives some things for the OP and everyone else to reflect on.

FF

patientandclear, yes, agreed, checking back to the original post on a long thread is an excellent idea.  If you read some of my earlier replies, I think you'll see I'm right there with Frankee in understanding that she may be dealing with behavior that needs attention.  So my latest post is just a narrow part of the whole picture, just sharing an experience when receiving even normal tween behavior can be hard on a parent who has been the recipient of abuse.  With a tween, some of the behavior may be from a concerning origin, and some may simply be tween behavior.  The thing I like about the things formflier is teaching is that they don't require you to tell the difference necessarily.

Frankee, you kicked off a good topic!

WW

A point that my psychologist makes regularly.  Because even for them, accurately putting a label on something can be difficult.

So, instead of figuring out the "why", focus more on the "what" you are going to do.  The structure and example you set.

I have one child D7, that is emotionally immature.  There is little doubt that "most" of that immaturity is because of her young age when the crazy around my house was in full swing. 

However, we also know that some of my other kids have matured at different speeds.  So, perhaps she was on the "slow developing" end anyway and then family dynamics weirdness didn't help things.

So... .the point was made to me that while "diagnosis" was possible, of all the diagnosis that P was considering, the actions she would have me take were pretty much the same.  So the focus was more on altering behavior and less on a label... .or ... .heaven forbid... .blame.

FF

I guess just like anything else, when discussing topics with children, really does invoke a lot what works for who.  I appreciate everyone's different insights.  After reading everyone responses, a lot of my confusion has cleared up.  Yes, part of his attitude and behavior may be reflected from his dad.  I also feel that part of it is normal child behavior.  I feel that every parent has that fear if they are doing a good enough job raising their children.  Am I listening enough?  Am I giving enough space?  Am I paying enough or too much attention?  Am I giving them structure?  Am I raising them to be emotionally and mentally healthy?

I'm starting to feel that I'm reflecting too much of my H's behavior into our oldest son.  In truth, my H is the one that acts like a child.  I find that what I struggle with is having this two people in family that are acting almost the same way, but having to approach both of them in different manners. 

One I have the opportunity to mold, instruct, guide, etc.  That will be more receptive to my "wisdom" or more understanding.  The other... has basically spent his entire life this way, is not nearly as receptive.  More like chipping away at a wall with a ball pin hammer.  One that also has no hesitation to tell me I'm wrong, project all their negativity on to me, verbally attack, tell me I'm messing up with everything (you get the picture).

Maybe being a recipient of verbal abuse has made me more sensitive to what I perceive as same behavior.  Or maybe, I'm just projecting?   

Speaking for myself, I definitely agree that being a recipient of verbal abuse has made me more sensitive to what I perceive as same behavior from D12, but is more often than not normal tween behavior.  But your point about molding and shaping is important as well, because if miss the opportunity to mold and shape in a way that counters some of the adult disrespect, we (or our child's future partner) may eventually see disrespect from them that they should have grown out of or should never be expressing.

WW

I really don't feel like any negative feedback on how I may or may not have handled this the right way.  Was just surprised.

My H said something to me.  I thought it was going to start out as another getting upset conversation.  He asked in that tone "what's wrong with you".  I sighed, told him about how our oldest was acting.  

He got angry with me because I wouldn't let him watch commercials (youtube video games).  I told him I was busy doing dinner and his brother was crying so he'd have to wait.  He got upset, starting stomping around saying he was getting angry.  I told him that he could play with all of his cool new toys that we got him and Santa brought (it was still Christmas).  He said he didn't want to and wanted to watch commercials.  I said no.  I finish dinner and tell him it's time to eat.  He's going around in this voice being sarcastic as hell, being impatient, intentionally doing things he knows I get upset about, refuses to eat dinner.  Says this is the worse day ever.  I wasn't feeling the whole getting mad thing, so I told him if he insists on behaving this way, he can go to his room and stay there until he calms down.  I said I don't appreciate the way he is acting and talking to me, he yelled that he doesn't care.  I gave him the death stare and in a very firm voice told him to go to his room.

My H has this upset look.  He knows our oldest is acting the way he does because our son sees him acting that way.  He says he knows it isn't right and he feels bad about it.  My H said he would talk to our son about it and let him know that daddy is sorry that he behaves the way he does when he gets mad and it's not right to talk to me the way he does.  He said that he hopes it's just a phase and because he's getting older and growing up.  He doesn't want him to be like him with anger issues.

I didn't know what to say.  I managed to thank him for talking to our oldest about his behavior and he is aware that how he acts sometimes isn't right.

It's great to hear that your husband has your back on this and is self aware enough to realise that his behaviour is affecting your son.  How did his conversation go with your son?  Do you think your husband will see this as motivation to adjust his own behaviours?

Love and light x

Honestly, I'm not sure anymore.  I'm in a state of mind where I honestly do not give a F.  I lied about a Christmas card.  He went to the store and grabbed some crappy cards that he kept saying cost $5 when they where only $2.50.  I wanted something nicer so I went to the store and grabbed a different card for my parents.  Had more writing and was something more like I would had gotten.  I switched out the cards but accidentally left the one he got under my jacket on the bed.  He found it, asked what the heck is this?  I panicked and went into cover up mode (yes I know I dug even deeper when trying to lie and cover it up, when I should had taken a breath, paused and told him the truth).  I didn't and I know that I should have.  He gets angry for me of course lying straight to his face.  Understandably he was upset.  He went to take a shower.  I knocked on the door and told him I was really sorry for lying about the card.  I didn't want to hurt his feelings thinking the card he got wasn't good enough, I just wanted one with a little more writing.  He came out later and was still mad.  I was okay with it because I did lie and then tried really bad to cover it up.  I gave him his space for the day and thought tomorrow would be a little better.

I of course was wrong.  Yesterday was bad.  He was in a bad mood when he woke up and I just chalked it up to he was still mad about yesterday.  I didn't push, I gave him space.  He asked me to go to the DMV with him to get an updated license.  I thought, that he wants to spend some time with me. He was kind of up and down the whole time when we were running errands.  Slight road rage.  Then he started taking jabs at me.  Saying is everyone out there was as stupid as I was, etc.  We stopped a couple places, went to the dmv, and then stopped off at the Seawall so he could make a couple calls.  Then, he let me have it.  Screaming, yelling, cursing, calling me scum of the earth, saying that human decency don't apply to me because I'm a chronic liar, everything that comes out of my mouth is a lie, he warned me if I lie than I was going to have at least a week of this.  Anyways, you get the picture.

Me right now... I do not give one iota about fixing this.  I have no desire to not JADE, emphasize, SET, try to read between the lines, try to tell him that I'm working on it, blah blah.  The whole time he raged at me in the car, I didn't say a single word. I do not care if that was the right response or if I should of done this or that.  I couldn't leave the car because it was raining and cold outside.  So I just sat there looking forward.  Even when he basically accused me of cheating when someone called my phone with the wrong number.  Said that was my code. 

I am angry, hurt, furious.  I'm not going to go into detail about everything he said, but it had the same affect as shoving me out the door and saying "this is your punishment for lying, you get to stay out in the cold". 

I appreciate any tips or advice or suggestions, but the honest way I'm feeling, I don't want to talk to him, I don't want to be around him, I don't even want to see him.  That is how angry and hurt I am.  I didn't do any of this with any malice thoughts, I just didn't like the card he got.  To reiterate, I know I handled the situation wrong, I know I should have told the truth right away, but I didn't.  I made a mistake which according to him, I'm not allowed to do.  So F it.

I forgot to add.  He finally makes a snide comment about lets go home so you can pretend nothing happened and go to sleep.  When we get home, he acts like nothing happened.  Goes about it a completely fine mood.  Snapped a couple times when our toddler was crying and I couldn't pick him up because I was cooking.  Then tried a couple times to pick him up, but our toddler refused and only wanted me to hold him.  Then later when I'm trying wash my hands, he starts crying again, so my H comes over and plays peek a boo between my legs trying to get him to stop crying.  Then he picks him up and says mommy can't hold you all the time buddy.  Then he wanted me and he was all nice about it and said here's your mommy.

He's putting on this whole facade for his brothers and our toddler when he literally tried to throw my self confidence and dignity in the garbage not even 30 minutes before.

There’s a cycle here of him behaving better or apologizing or saying he will work on his rage so your child doesn’t learn destructive ways ... .then raging again. Then he subsides and is more pleasant for a while, and you re-invest in trying some more ... .

I’m sure he feels legitimized by the lying, so let’s take a look at that. I really, really think it would be beneficial for you to pay attention to WHY you do feel compelled to conceal some information from him. Wishing that impulse away isnt going to resolve the dynamic for you. Your being is responding to an instinct to conceal or not be truthful with him that comes from somewhere. What is it coming from? What is it that you think will happen if you tell the truth? Where does that expectation come from?

Find myself in a catch 22.  Almost like old habits die hard.  I am afraid he will get angry if I tell the truth on certain things.  Call me stupid, forgetful, irresponsible, moron... Mostly referring to if I forget to pay a bill, do something he asked me and t didn't, etc.
I think sometimes lying can buy me time to do the task and be none the wiser.  The stupid thing with the Christmas card I don't even know why I made a pathetic attempt to lie.  I was half asleep and was prepared for him finding the card he had bought.  Think that was panic self preservation mode.
When I think he is going to be mad with the truthful answer, I fudge.  Afraid of the repercussions.  From past experience.

It may seem "calculating", but it's probably not.  Remember... .pwBPDs feelings change so rapidly.  He is likely "reacting" to positive feelings and really doesn't "remember" ripping you to shreds 30 minutes earlier.

Note:  "Reminding" him of wrongdoing isn't going to help either... .

This is a frustrating (to say the least) part of a r/s with a pwBPD.

"Bending" the truth.  Lying. 

Not good for any relationship.  Early on my wife accused me of lying about things (usually women) and unfortunately I "validated" her view by lying about trivial things.

So... .in my haste to answer, I might say "I don't know anything about xyz... "  She would find out about xyz... .find out I "bent the truth"... .and it would set her off.  I would JADE... .she would continue to rage.

The reality was... .I was scared.  I needed to own that.

"I'm not comfortable answering that question right now... ."   Yep... it would set her off... .but it was "honest".  And, over time, me "owning" my part did help calm things.

FF

I just get so damn mad that we seem to be on different sides of the spectrum.  Last night he acted like nothing happened.  Talking to me normally, didn't even get mad when I told him I couldn't find a Wal mart gift card that had a few dollars on it.  Yes, it's less than ten dollars, but I know it's the principle that he said something about it and I didn't put it up right away.

I mean, so what?  Am I supposed to just file away all the vile or very cruel things he said?  I know what he's doing, he's behavior training me.  He even told me.  "I told you that every time you lie, this is what you get, you will have at least a week to deal with this".  I know, lying is bad and I shouldn't do it.  I've never been 100% honest with anybody and I'm trying hard to stop.

I agree.  I totally handled the Christmas card situation really poorly.  I didn't stop to think about anything and just did the ingrained reaction.  I know he hates liars.  I know he has trust issues with people in general.  My H is like that.  He said that if I lie about stupid trivial stuff that doesn't even matter, then that means I will lie about bigger stuff i.e. cheating.

He's been taking jabs every now and then, but he's not treating me like a hostile invader anymore.  I really want to take this in stride and see that at least we are on decent terms.  I will accept the blame for lying and causing a reaction.  Yes I should be able to detach, not take it personally, etc.  We are all humans.  What worries me is I am one of those people that I will take a lot of crap.  You can keep pushing and pushing, but once I snap, it's extremely hard for me to come back from it.  I'm glad he's not raging or treating me worthless crap, but I'm having difficulty getting past the distance and smoldering resentment I'm feeling towards him.  Then he will get angry at me for acting this way when I'm the one to blame for all of this. 

What's even more frustrating is wondering if I should even take full blame for all of this because I lied (didn't evn try very hard and was obviously lying) and I know he hates liars and reacts this way when I do lie.

You shouldn’t lie, you know that, that’s valid and important.

But equally valid and important is that you are anticipating being treated poorly by him if you tell the truth. That is a piece of the dysfunction that he created.

If you succeed in ruling out dealing with that through lying/avoidance, then you have to squarely engage the fact that this man sometimes reacts in ways that hurt you badly and that he creates fear in you.

One way you can try to deal with that is to care less. I think the feelings you are struggling with right now are a good indicator that that doesn’t work for you. My own view is that “care less/de-personalize” is a survival strategy but not a particularly viable one (in that harm and damage seep through despite best efforts not to care/take the abuse on board), and also, isn’t a road to a strong satisfying intimate connection with another person.

The other strategy is to honor that you do care (and are right to care), and use boundaries to make it less and less possible for the relationship to proceed with this kind of abuse as a feature of it. He then will have choices—to learn other practices, which is hard, or to continue to resort to his current coping strategies, and lose access to you that he desires.

There are changes to make always on both sides of a relationship in order to reduce the conflict and dysfunction.

So in answer to your question about whether you should 'take all the blame' another way to think about it is, that by making it about blame, we quickly find ourselves in victim mode, feeling sorry for ourselves, keeping hold of our righteous indignation and doing a lot of harrumphing. :)

If it's not about taking blame, then what is it about? it's about changing existing hard wired patterns of responding to our pwBPD's different version of events or ways of doing things in order to reduce conflict.

Stepping firmly out of your victim role where your 'smouldering resentment' would be oh so easily fired up into similar and always escalating spats will help YOU move forward, and each time you don't enter into the conflict it will get easier. The link on looking in the mirror can be a helpful place to start https://bpdfamily.com/deciding_guide/03.htm

Yes you lied, don't lie again, let it go.
How often do these types of conflicts happen between you and your husband?

They are actually getting fewer and farther.  I guess I'm being hard on myself deep down because I know it could have been easily avoided if I had just paused, took a breath, and told the truth out right.  I slipped.   

Think that's part of my problem.  We get in the swings where things are going fine and I forget I'm not dealing with a stable person.  What I perceive as a period of relaxation isn't it at all.  When times like this happen, usually the thought crosses my mind of what else is going on?  It gets to the feeling where my H goes these periods with out a break down or outburst, but as soon as that one thing happens where he can use that trigger as an excuse, he explodes.  Almost like the dam just burst on all pent up feelings.  I of course know that trying to talk to him about deep down emotions is pointless because he always blames whatever trigger it was at that time.

When it comes down to it, what I'm starting to struggle with is how I see more and more my plans for the future where he's not in it.  I love him deep down, I know why he is the way he is.  The problem is I keep hearing that just because he has a disorder, doesn't give him the right to be abusive the way he is.  The more and more I hear it, the more I feel detached from him every time it happens.  I've been enjoying spending less time with him. 

I'm just waiting now for him to see I'm still "broke" and not warming back up or showing him affection or initiating contact and possibly getting mad about it.  I don't feel it.  I'm not doing it on purpose or to "punish him".  It would be forced, fake, and akward.  I'm feeling stuck.  Hollow.

Have you explored Radical Acceptance, it has been a game changer for me, along with no JADEing and the power of validation?

There is an article in the files somewhere I will see if I can find a link to.

I think it might be important not to be waiting and seeing if your h notices your still 'broke' not back on form yet, as this is about perpetuating the underlying conflict.
In doing this brooding the dysfunctional dance between you both just continues. In coming here to this boards it is ultimately about changing ourselves and how we continue to do things that just aren't working.

How can you find a way to resolve how you feel, process it and move on?
It is possible to still feel upset and express that in an honest and open way with your h, whilst also accepting that it is unlikely that he is the person that is going to make you feel less broken. Only you can do that.
Sulking, and brooding is punishing him, and that is how it will feel to him. It's about finding a healthier way forward.

I'm seeing a pattern in your "lying" which I would more charitably characterize as "misdirecting" "attempting to not hurt his feelings" "protecting oneself" and "being evasive".

It's a pattern I, too, fell into with my BPD mother. At times, there were no truthful answers that wouldn't elicit her anger, so I tried to avoid setting her off and hoped I wouldn't be found out. Far too often, I was.

But the overall dynamic is an unequal balance of power. He's setting himself up as "interrogator" and you as "suspect". You are already presumed guilty in his mind.

I think the only way to get out of this dynamic is to avoid answering some of those questions. Not easy, as this will probably also set him off. But you need to get back on equal footing. And this is probably one of the reasons you feel resentful.

Here is the link, https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0

I really appreciate the feedback.  I came on here in a fit of hurt and anger.  I notice that my emotions are sometimes just as much on a swing as my H's. 

I read about the radical acceptance.  The part that says accepting that the event or situation causing you pain has a cause is a hard pill to swallow.  As much as it does suck, it makes sense.  Another thing that comes to mind which some might scoff at is Pavlov's dogs.  I feel like I'm being conditioned not to lie.  I lie, he comes unglued and very  malicious.  I tell the truth, he may be initially angry, but appreciates the truth and gets over it easier.  Problem is, I know I've broken his trust so I also have to work on getting back trust, which will probably take a long time and be a very hard road.

It makes me feel better getting the outside perspective and acually make sense.  I was so wrapped up in feeling like I just had it and was done with all of it.  I really don't feel that way overall, but I felt so wounded (playing the victim role... guilty yes).  I guess it was the things he said he stuck down deep.  I typed out a whole boohoo me, he did this and that and said mean things... I erased it all.  Found that would be playing victim again.

I think sometimes I do feel he thinks I'm guilty before asking a question.  I also find that if he asks something and the answer is no (when it's something he's mentioned or asked me to do more than once) I tend to lie.  I have had him react in a nasty manner if I say no when it's something I was supposed to do and forgot.  Back to the automatic response. 

I think if I can find my way back to that solid ground, I can start to feel back on track.  I was kind of feelings like all the progress that had been made and my confidence was thrown completely in the garbage.  It still hurts.  For some reason, he really struck my nerves this time and I'm not sure what it was about this time that really got to me.

Hi Frankee,

What might be useful to practise is to pause.  Just take a breath before you respond.  Give yourself a second to think.  Even maybe tell your husband this is something you're working on because you know you need to slow down a little or else you can sometimes speak without thinking and the wrong answer comes out.  He of all people should understand what it's like to say something you don't mean.  Although I wouldn't point that out... . 

It's worth bearing in mind that a pwBPD tends to be hypervigilant and extremely sensitive to emotions.  He will pick up on emotional cues and body language or 'tells' that you may not be aware of and give meaning to them.  If he dislikes lies, he's probably always looking out for them, so telling him what you think he'd rather hear isn't likely to be helpful for you.  Slowing down a little before you respond could be a good habit to develop.

Love and light x 

How is your relationship with your children since you have left?

FF