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Well, shame on me.  Got into it pretty bad with my H.  We are spring cleaning a lot of stuff.  I've been posting on these different selling apps.  Been working great.  They caution against fraud, meeting in public places, etc.  I had an offer on our motorcycle ramp/jack.  I sold them.  I was a little hesitant to give out my address so I talked to my H.  Out of nowhere, he bulldozes the conversation.  Starts yelling about how I'm freaking out about the pick up, how he's sick of hearing me ask about what to do with the pick up, how I didn't have a problem before when he had buyers come over to the house.  I told him I was just going by what the selling apps cautioned me on.  How I didn't want strangers coming to the house.  He asked what was he supposed to do, box them up and tell them to stick them up their a**.  I said okay, I won't ask anymore, I will take care of it.  He was still pissed.

I had another buyer for a stereo.  I took matters into my own hands.  Agreed to a price, set up a location to drop off the item.  I go home for lunch to get the stereo.  He's there.  Asks what am I doing home.  Told him I'm here for lunch and I sold the stereo.  I said that he was at the library and I told him that I would drop it off.  My H proceeded to ask if it was a man or woman.  I honestly wasn't sure, so I said I think a woman.  That was all I needed to say.  My H blows up and says that I kept saying him and he so why would I say it's a woman.  I said I'm honestly not sure, I think it is.  That point I had already tripped and fallen flat on my face.  He said I was lying and that was pretty much it.  No way for me to recover from that goof.  I think I said woman because I thought he would get pissed if he thought I was meeting some random man.  I didn't realize he asked because he was going to give me a ride.  I was still pretty upset because we had just talked shortly before I went home.  I kind of wished I had waited to go home.

He's screaming at me in front of his brother and the kids.  Decided that everyone would know that I was a liar and what I'm doing is wrong.  I had passed the ability to calm the situation because I was getting angry.  I continued to get everything ready to go make the sale.  He continued on with rant.  Things escalated when other things happened and he ended up storming out.  He called after he left.  Continued yelling and screaming about how I'm the worse person.  I said I was sorry for lying.  Then he said "FU you lying bit**"... I snapped... bad.  I screamed back FU, I can't talk to you right now and hung up on him.  I didn't answer when he called back.  Waited until I calmed down and sent him a message apologizing for the way I acted, I felt bad, he had a right to be upset about me lying.  This was his reply.  Apologize for the foul language.

I don't give a sh**, be sorry. I told you I'm sick of your lies. For the record, I only asked if it was a man because I was going to give you a ride if it was. Your the one who was freaked out about someone murdering you if they came to the house, but your fine meeting some guy alone. Yeah, FU. I told you, if you lie, this is what you get. The more you lie, the longer it lasts. So you can suck my co**. FU. And don't touch that F**in money, it better all be in the safe when I get home.

You also better decide how important lying is to you. Your about to lose your family over it. Keep pushing me and see if I'm bluffing. I F**in detest liars. So FU you lying F**in bit**.

Any suggestions?

Frankee,

You did nothing wrong.   You didn't make any mistakes.    You are not responsible for his outburst.    What you did and said was normal.   Ordinary.    Human.    It's perfectly acceptable to miss-speak, get confused about who was buying what, to be "honestly unsure" about things.   You did not 'goof up'.

You did nothing wrong.   You can go home when you want, be nervous about meeting strangers,  and yeah you know what, you can occasionally tell little white lies.   We all do it.

This is abuse.

What you are describing is verbal and emotional abuse.    The emotional abuse is the threat to lose your family.

I would suggest a zero tolerance policy to any kind of verbal or emotional abuse.   This is not okay.    Period.    Point blank.

You are not responsible for his abuse.

You are responsible to remove yourself from it.   To leave the room,  exit the conversation, draw a boundary of I Will Not Participate In Conversations That Contain Name Calling and Obscenities.   

When he says 'box them up and stick them up',... .you say okay I won't ask and you leave.   leave the room,  leave the house,   leave the conversation.

When he says "you are lying"   you say I won't have this conversation this way right now and you exit.

When he starts screaming at you in front of his brother and your kids, you say "This is not okay"  and you leave.

When he calls after he stormed out of the house, you don't answer the phone.    You don't apologize (for lying) until the mood between the both of you is calm.   

When he goads you until you snap,  you don't apologize until the mood is calm... .and then you ONLY take responsibility for not handling things as well as you would have liked.   

You don't apologize to calm or soothe him, because that is responding to his control and coercion.

If he had the right to be upset about you lying than he also had the responsibility to handle it like a mature and caring adult in a committed relationship.   

This is abuse Frankee,  and abuse is always,  always about power and control.   Who has all the power in your relationship right now?

my suggestion is Do Not Participate In Abusive Conversations.

'ducks

That's what a normal human being should say.  What really made me upset in the first place was my first conversation is I was completely blind sided by him blowing up.  I know whatever was going on with him wasn't my fault.  I was simply trying to keep him informed of what was going on and people wanting to stop by the house.  We have two small children.  I wasn't concerned about being murdered or nonsense, but you can't trust people on the internet.  He got so upset that I was "freaking out" about the pick up.  It's not like I'm going to just hand out our address like candy to anyone who wants to buy something.

I think what I am feeling right now is shell shock.  Still feeling mentally clouded by what happened.  It's like the solution is right in front of my face and I'm having trouble grasping what to do next.  According to him, I'm never allowed to lie to him.  At all, even white lies.  Once I made the mistake of saying what I did, it turned into, I'm up to something, I'm not telling the truth, why am I dressed this way, etc.

Right now, it feels the power and control is in his favor.  I know he feels that how he reacted was justified because I lied.  I already know that tonight isn't going to be good.  He's going to be still pissed.  What is even more frustrating is that I know the source of his rage isn't because of me.  I was just the excuse he was looking for to word vomit onto someone and let someone else feel his pain of whatever was going on.  Even more screwed up, is if I try to "psycho therapy" him, he will deny everything except the fact that he acted the way he did because of me. 

What he did was abuse.  Absolutely uncalled for.  My first instinct is to soothe him so I won't have to deal with the problem or have to deal with more rage when he comes home tonight.  I already know that's a bad choice and a band-aid on a much bigger issue of the fact that it was a verbal and emotional attack and threat.  If I pacify or soothe him, he will think that he was right and I deserved it.  He calls me smug, like I'm in the right, like I'm not doing anything wrong.  I can't act "normal" on this.  It was too severe of an attack to just blow away.

The things you suggested to do are great things to do.  I failed to do any of it this time.  I was getting to the point where I was focused on not screaming back at him and asking him what the heck was his problem.  It took a lot of self control to just stay calm in that manner.  Of course I lost it when I was on the phone with him.  I hate how I react like that.

I'm hoping I will have clarity and find footing on sturdy ground before I have to face him tonight.  I'm not worried about physical abuse.  Idk.  Sometimes I think a slap to the face would be better than some of the things he said.  Bruises heal, emotional bruises sometimes never do.

My dilemma.  If he is still enraged and decides to carry on the issue tonight, what to do then.  I've tried the "lets talk when we've calmed down" suggestion and it's always led to him becoming more upset.  The kids will be asleep, I won't be able to leave the house, and I need to be able to be aware of myself to where it doesn't escalate and he starts yelling.  Of course if he does, I know it's not my fault if I am doing my part to remain calm.  We don't have a big house and limited on what rooms I can exit too.  Stressed and dreading tonight.

I need to work on this.  I feel I've gotten "use" to accepting his "punishments" for my "mess ups".  When I know I did goof up something (i.e. provided the wrong information, balanced the bank account wrong, forgot to do something, etc.) I feel bad and that I do deserve a reprimand.  This isn't normal or healthy.  That type of "punishments" he hands out is wrong.  I'm having a hard time standing up and saying it's not okay when I feel in the wrong.

How do we get past that?  That feeling that they are right to punish us for things we do feel we messed up on?  I know it's not right, but that feeling is something I'm fighting with.

Hi Frankee,

How would you respond to your kids if they made a mistake?  Would they be punished for a slip up?  From what you're describing, these are simple errors that anyone could make and are not intentional.  It's a far cry from knowingly going against a person's wishes, cheating, stealing, or harming someone and damn the consequences.  Forgetting something is not a punishable offence.  So if your children were in school and they made an error I'm guessing you'd want their teacher to reassure them that everyone makes mistakes and that it's not the end of the world.  Why then do you not feel deserving of the same treatment?

As a self professed codependent, I notice that I want so much for others yet fail to see that I too am worthy of the same love, care, patience, acceptance and understanding that I give to others.  I would suggest that you begin by giving that to yourself.  It sounds to me like you are overly critical of yourself and not giving yourself the compassion that you deserve.  Remember, we set the tone for how others treat us.  If we think it is OK for us to be treated poorly and accept that, then so do others.  When you feel able to believe that you are worth every bit as much patience as your children and your H receive, then you can project that forwards and show that outwardly through your behaviour. 

When you are at home this evening, if things get heated, what would you normally do?

Love and light x   

It's frustrating.  I agree with the child thing.  I try to teach my kids that it is okay to make mistakes.  Everyone does it.  I may initially get upset depending on the mistake, but I'm not going to demean them or make them feel like dog poop about it.

I am overly critical about myself.  I didn't use to be.  Use to be accepting of my sometimes goofy slip ups or forgetfulness.  Would tell myself that it was okay and mistakes happen as long as I learn from them.  That was before.  When I first met my H and we were in the "honeymoon" phase.  I've let him break me down over time.  Now I feel that I'm not allowed to make the same mistake more than once.  Not allowed to provide misinformation (on accident of course),  not supposed to forget anything, not allowed to trip over my words (because that means I'm trying to lie).

I do feel that I give my kids and H more understanding, compassion, and patience than I receive.  My kids are one thing.  I'm their mother and it my responsibility to provide that for them.  I really need to try harder at setting boundaries of what I will or won't accept. 

hi Frankee,

How are things going today?  And how did you find things when you got home last night?

Can we back up to something Harley Quinn said?   I really liked this point.


So the highlights are mine of course.   HQ is correct,  we set the tone for how others treat us.    And we do that with boundaries.   This behavior of your H isn't going to go away.   Not without time and effort.   There may be quiet spells but he has established a pretty visible track record.   How can you establish a boundary,  a plan,   that the next time this happens you already know,  automatically,  what you will do,  what you will say,   how you will get through it.    Reacting in the moment is not serving you well.

Every episode of violent and threatening language is further damaging you, your children, and your relationship.   What one thing,   what one small thing, can you do today that will start to push this in another direction?

'ducks

Only mistake you made was apologizing. You did nothing wrong.

What HQ said actually made sense.  I know there are times where I get angry and I don't talk kindly to myself.  I fall into the victim role.  It was pretty quiet last night.  No yelling or screaming etc.  It was a little hard getting sleep because the baby kept waking up.  Was fine this morning.  Everything went smooth.  Even coming to work I felt okay.  Even got another offer and an item I'm selling.  I sent a text message just now.  Mentioned to my H that I have diapers, but I probably need to get a box before next pay day.  He said okay.  And get a rat for our snake.  I said okay, I will do that tomorrow.  I thought, okay, that was easy transaction.  Then I get this text message.

I mean seriously, if y'all want to keep asking me for sh**, maybe y'all should do and get the things I ask you too. Y'all always remember what you need, but for some reason you just ignore everything i need. It's not working like that anymore. I hope y'all are ready to live with a real a**hole. That lie you told broke the camel's back. I'm done trying with anything, your basically just my bit** now. You do what I say when I say or you can get the F*** out. You want to be a liar, your gonna be treated like one.

Totally unexpected.  I feel myself shaking.  I am literally about to go ape sh** on him.  So now I need to do this "establish a boundary,  a plan,   that the next time this happens you already know,  automatically,  what you will do,  what you will say,   how you will get through it.    Reacting in the moment is not serving you well."  I need to think carefully on how I respond to this.  This is what he seriously said for what happened yesterday. 

So shout out.  I'm not going to take it.  I am making a choice right now to nip this in the butt.  I refuse to allow him to talk and treat me this way.  I already know it's going to get real hairy.  I need to do this and I'm scared.  I do not deserve this.  I do not deserve to be treated like a doormat for him to wipe him boots on.  If I let this go, I will spend the next several years trying to recover.

Any encouraging words to build my courage would be great.

Frankee,

How long do you have before you see him?  Take some time to think through what you are going to do and what his likely response is going to be.  Is there any risk that he may lash out physically in your honest opinion?  Try to think about whether there have ever been any 'came close but didn't' moments.  Your safety is paramount here, so let's first think about how we cover that above all else.  When you feel confident you know what to do if things get out of hand, you will be better equipped to decide what your first steps will be.

Love and light x

I won't see him until tonight when he comes home.  Usually around 11am.  I took the time to calm down and started reading under the tools section.  I got past the initial reaction of anger and wanting to "put him into check".  I already knew that would had been a very bad choice and made things far worse.  The post I made (however long ago) about contacting the abuse hotline was the last time I was scared he might had actually yanked me off the couch and done physical harm.  I know I need to avoid another situation like that. 

I'm thinking of taking the route under the listen with empathy tool.  I was reading their suggestions.  Removing myself from the attack and gaining perspective.  I know that his reaction to what happened is completely out of context.  There is something else that caused the explosion.  I was the target for his release of pain.  I've done "worse" things in his eyes and haven't had this bad of a reaction.  I also feel I need to avoid guilt, being anxious, helplessness.  The more I think, the more I'm feeling I need to take the stance of I am not going to tolerate being treated this way, I do not accept his behavior, showing him that I am not scared or going to allow him to run me over.  It seems I need to do this in a way where I'm not appearing smug, entitled, etc.  Also throw in the empathy listening.

Does it seem he's trying to illicit a certain reaction?

If I started with something like this, it may throw him off and a response he wouldn't expect.
I hear you about forgetting things.  It’s frustrating to feel ignored and like nobody is listening.  I know that it hurts and upsetting to feel that your requests are being completely disregarded.  It hard to feel like you need to be this angry person who only gets things by yelling, screaming, and threating.

I know my ability to stay calm in situations like this has caused him to become more enraged and angry.  From the track record, that's usually the response I receive.  I feel he wants me to either accept what he has to say or return with equal anger.  It's also apparent that he does have quiet spells, but still has that seething anger right below the surface, waiting for another reason to lash out.

I hear a lot of aggression within his message.  Would you say that this type of aggressive behaviour and the threats are 'usual' for him or can you see an increase in the severity over time at all?

I'm interested to know if you have friends and family who are aware of your situation.  Who do you speak to about this behaviour that is directed towards you?

You're absolutely right, we do not want a repeat of the time he seemed to be on the verge.  At the same time, showing him fear is going to spur him on with this behaviour.  Do you have the number for the DV hotline still?  My advice right now is to give them a call and take some advice around safety planning.  They can ask you all the questions around your living situation etc and will know the drill when it comes to considering every eventuality.  What we do not want is for you to put yourself at risk of harm.  If you needed to exit quickly, where would you go?  Do you have somewhere you could head to in a hurry if needs be?

Let's take this one step at a time.  Dotting the i's and crossing the t's is imperative for your sense of confidence and security when you face him. 

Love and light x 

I think you're on the right track here with the validation of his feelings.  This will work most effectively if he is relatively calm at the time and hasn't escalated.  It could subdue him enough that you are able to prevent things from spiralling.  I've highlighted the part which I feel might push his buttons though and cause a negative reaction.  This comes off as a criticism and is likely to be the only part he will hear, based on my experience of dealing with my ex.  I'd be tempted to keep it more neutral than allowing him to feel that a finger is being pointed. 

Perhaps we could replace this with something that talks about YOUR feelings?

Love and light x

HiFrankee,

I didn’t read all of the posts I think that he snapped at you about meeting someone for an exchange was because either he didn’t want to be bothered, didn’t know what to say and projected his insecurities unto you. Does that sound like him?

He’s jealous that you might be meeting a potential man and if ge’s A owBPD he’s scared that you’ll abandon him. He has really low self esteem and self worth, his actions scream insecurity and it’s abusive to you emotionally and mentally.


He wants attention, he can’t stay cool and manage his own emotions, he’s probably jealous of your cool demeanour and you’re ability to pull it off easily in his mind. I completely agree with boundaries. Boundaries in simple terms is to keep the good stuff in and bad stuff out.

I just wanted to add something,  just keep in mind that there’s a good chance that there’s going to backlash for awhile because it’s behaviour that their not used to. He’s used to treating one way for a lot by time and judging by what you shared here he might crank things up a notch.

You should stick up yourself and not be a doormat. My question is to you is timing. Are you considering talking to the dv counsellor? You’re in conflicted so that means you’re not sure about if you’re going to stay or going to go. My point is what worries me is the potentional backlash towards you that could be physical abuse.

Would it be wise to wait and see what the dv counsellors say and if you feel like you’re going to stay or go. If you choose on leaving, you could put a lot of this into play after you’re gone that way it’s safer for you because you’re not in his direct line of sight.

Hi Frankee,

I am glad you are taking some time to think this through and really plan a strategy.   You want to think about this carefully.    Anger and adrenaline will take you so far but when they run out the crash is pretty significant.    When the anger and adrenaline run out you want to be someplace 100% safe and comfortable.   

I am right there with Mutt and Harley Quinn,  your safety and the safety of the kids is the most vital thing.

Safety first.

Here are my suggestions about how to go about planning.    what ever you say keep it short, sweet and to the point.   You want it to be a natural message, something you would normally say but not so complicated as you can't remember it under stress.

I don't believe it's a good idea to get drawn into a long involved complex conversation.    Simple, short, to the point.

If I remember right you reached out the DV hotline from the online anonymous chat.    I think it would be a good idea to revisit that.    You want to build up as much support behind you as you can.

Take some time to the consider the safety planning that Harley Q talked about.   Where would you go in a hurry,   how would you get there,... .how would you move the kids.    It might not reach that point but better to think it through now than to have to do it in a hurry.

'ducks

I agree with the backlash.  I wish that I could say some magic words to make it go away and come back down.  I know however that will never happen.  Even if I carefully choose my words and try very hard to watch what I say, he isn't going to let this go, probably for a few days.  That is the one of the hard parts, riding out the storm.

I talked to the national abuse hotline on their chat.  They provided information.  Also pointed out (as many us of know) that this is abuse, he's an abusive partner, I don't deserve this, there is a difference between love and abuse.  Even people with mental illness aren't all abusive that it is a choice for him to act this way.  I keep thinking of the slot machine (can't remember the phrase that's used).  But they try to keep playing the same thing and hoping that at some point they will win.  I already know that if I let this go or try to pacify him, that it will ensure that future behavior will be rewarded in the same way.  When I talked to them, I wasn't a crying ball of mess, I was pretty calm.  Still have a knowing feeling that I need to do something about this.

I have a feeling he's probably feeling like a conqueror because I still haven't responded to his very nasty text.  He doesn't realize that I'm reaching out for help and guidance to get a handle on the situation.  I hate playing these mind games and wish I could just come out and say how I'm feeling (which is already proven ineffective).

I tried posting under the Improving ongoing relationship.  Not sure if I posted under the wrong topic or not, didn't get notice that it was moved :\  I did discuss options for planning a safety plan and taking to a counselor.  I would have to find a counselor that accepts Medicaid or did free counseling.  Our finances are under careful watch.

He's done this before.  Said things such as "be prepared to live with an a**hole, your going to lose your family, I warned you what would happen if you kept doing this or that".  None of that is acceptable.  It is abuse.  I also notice that majority of the time, it fizzles in a few days (depending on how bad it was).

I like the short, sweet, and to the point.  I have this internal battle going on.  I'm having to force myself to be patient and think carefully about what my next move will be.  I really want to text him back and tell him I'm no bi**, he's acting like a privileged selfish a**hole, I'm not going to tolerate this BS, I deserve to be treated with respect and not talked to like this.  Don't worry, I'm not going to say any of that.  That's never proven to be the right response.

I've been thinking of saying something short, sweet, and to the point in a little bit.  Validation of feeling ignored and being disregarded.  I notice that sometimes when I can comeback with validation and empathy or certain things and then give him time to think about it, it may de-escalate things tonight.  If I just remain quiet and radio silence until tonight, it may be worse.  Just extremely hard to displace myself when it was a direct attack at me.

Think so?

Preventing escalation right now needs to be top priority, I agree.  When he is calm and regulated is the only time to talk about things.  Trying to address things when he is off the boil will not pave the way to anything positive.  You know best how he will view your silence, so if your gut instinct tells you to reach out tentatively to put the fire out then that sounds like a plan.  What were you thinking of saying?  Try to be sure it sounds natural.  Speak your own language.  I found that starting with an observation worked well.  Something like 'it sounds as though you feel... .'  then keep it short in validating that.

Love and light x

He has made it clear he hates it when I stonewall.  I do admit I clam up when hurt or angry.  Resolves nothing and nobody is a mind reader.  My gut was definitely pulling in the direction of making some sort of validation that I hear him.  I read the texts again and from past experiences, feeling ignored is a huge trigger for him.  I also have learned that just ignoring or keeping quiet about certain topics is also another trigger.  

It's almost like pouring salt a wound.  Going around the saying I'm his bi** and do what he says when he says is a HUGE trigger for me.  I'm not a possession or some trained dog to "fetch".  I figure the best way is to address the underlying cause and not point fingers.

Sent this.
I hear you about the forgetting things.  It's frustrating to feel ignored and like nobody is listening.  Is sounds like you are hurt and upset you feel your requests are being completely disregarded.  I feel we can work on this together to understand and improve.  

Well... that was a fast response.

That's all secondary to the lieing and you know it. The fact that you feel the truth is something you can pick and choose to tell at your whim is the issue. I wouldn't put up with anyone else lying to me and I won't continue to put up with it from you. You made this problem yourself and now you'll just have to live with it. Leaving isn't even a option anymore, not until after the kids are safely in a house that I own. After that you can either put up with it or leave. For now though, it's a problem you created and you will just have to deal with it. I'm not nice to liars, don't trust 'em.

This is going to be a very stressful situation.   

I am still seeing a lot of intimidation tactics and control and manipulation.   Would you agree?

I'm also not seeing a lot to validate in this last text.   

Do you think a SET would help?   Support Empathy Truth, where the truth would be an opening to begin to draw a boundary?

Exctinction burst (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0)


You know that you’re not a possession, you’re not an object, you’re a person. You have to distance yourself or depersonalize his actions. Think about it this way, what would people think of him going around saying this? He’s crude, he’s possessive, he objectifies you all things that he own even if he doesn’t want to own up to it.

Just a word of advice with respect news with HCP’s and I agree with babyducks. Don’t validate the invalid. Validate the valid. Make yourself a very small target. In regards to his response, he’s creating a lot of FOG, especially Fear in FOG.

This is what he thinks works.  Scaring people to keep them in their place.  Making threats to lose everything, having to deal with him being an a**hole.  He's said more than once (when he gets like this) that people take his kindness for weakness.  He hates to not appear in control

I kind of knew that even no matter how carefully I chose my words, he would still be angry.  He's making all of this about my lie.  Using it to justify his behavior.  Nothing I can say will change his mind that it is all my fault, I caused it, and now him acting this way is all on me.  That's what he thinks.

I don't know how to apply SET in this situation.  I'm still fighting the urge to rip him a new one.  I also know that I need to refrain from further contact until tonight.  Last thing I need I him blaming me for something else because I wanted to talk about this while he's at work.

So dealing with his attempt at fear, obligation, and guilt.  I fully agree with that.  What bothers me about this is the constant mention of leaving.  He acts like my "lie" was a direct assault on him.  It wasn't even something I was really thinking about when I said that it.

I don't see any point I can pick out from his last text to validate.  I do want to ask why he keeps mentioning me leaving.  I get it's the whole abandonment issue he deals with, but that does not give him any right to talk to me this way.

I need to stay focused on the extinction burst also.  If he thinks this behavior will be rewarded with acceptance and compliance, then I'm in for an extremely hard road.

It was quiet again last night.  I stayed in the bedroom and kept myself busy with rearranging the room because I wanted to put in a book shelf.  We had exchanges of words regarding our selling of items and moving stuff around.  I kept it strictly to what we were talking about and I kept the interaction limited. 

I'm pissed.  I didn't realize how pissed until he asked for a snack.  He asked if there was tuna.  I said no, I used the last of it last time.  He got upset.  I told him there was hamburger meat (he had been wanting hamburgers).  He said that is not what he wants, I never have what he wants, somebody must be smoking crack because he doesn't understand what we get at the grocery store.  I literally had everything else food wise he had been asking for... Except the f**in tuna.  He went into the bedroom and I felt livid.  I went into the kitchen and ranted to myself about it. 

Just because it's "quiet" and he's not talking about it or yelling... Doesn't mean anything has been resolved.  If anything, I feel that the longer it goes without me saying something, the more I feel he thinks I have quietly accepted that's how things are going to be.  I'm furious, I'm hurt, I'm stressed, I feel that I have this ticking time bomb right below the surface... Waiting for that one thing to make me explode. I don't want to feel this way and I'm trying to figure out what step to take next.

You desperately want to be heard and validated from him. It has to be frustrating and depressing when you feel like you have no control over the situation.

To a degree that is true, you can’t control what he says or does. There are only two things that you have you control over, your thoughts and feelings and both need validation.

He can’t validate the feelings that you’ve felt for a long time that’s where talking about your experience here helps you.

I don't have any control.  It is very frustrating that he is carrying on like this.  I literally didn't say a word, but I guess the way I moved to pick up the baby got him to accuse me of having an attitude.  Told me that he knows what I am doing, I have an attitude and he told me if I kept doing that, that it would be like this.  He isn't directing any of this towards anyone else.  He came out this morning and was in a great mood. Laughing and playing with the baby and dog.  But me? Straight us jerk and a**.  So he is completely aware and clear headed of his behavior.

I mean, I am totally at a loss here.  This is the backlash that was mentioned.  Hasn't escalated to violence, but he's turned into a straight up prick towards me.  There is nothing to valid at all, there is nothing to SET.  I still want to address the issue of his last text about calling me his dog.  I knew he could see through my quiet demeanor.  He is fully 100% blaming me and I am getting fed up with him throwing it in my face saying it's all my fault.  I realize that anything I do to "irritate" him is going to be an excuse in his mind to be a di** to me and say I caused this.

Now that I know what I'm dealing with (constantly saying I caused this, its my fault, I should of stopped doing this or that) I need to set a boundary and a response that will let him know I'm not going to listen to the accusations and be blamed for everything. 

Now that I know what I'm dealing with (constantly saying I caused this, its my fault, I should of stopped doing this or that) I need to set a boundary and a response that will let him know I'm not going to listen to the accusations and be blamed for everything.


I see you are walking a fine line. One part of you would like to respond directly to the verbal abuse. And another part of you wants to be strategic.

When you set a boundary, remember that you are doing it for yourself. No need to announce your line in the sand because that will just irritate him further.

As much as I would like to address the issue, now I'm not even sure that would be worth any effort.  He's already found me guilty in his mind.  Already has it set in his thick skull that I deserve this and I need to learn from it. 

This is a sensitive time.  I feel I should carry on like nothing is wrong.  When he is a straight up jerk or accuses me of doing something, acting like I don't know what he is talking about.  I don't however want to be invalidating when he voices a concern that is legitimate.  I also don't want to be accused of ignoring him or the situation because that irritates the crap out of me.

I think the ideas about removing myself from abusive and unpleasant situations and focus on working on my own thoughts and feelings.  He's going to try very hard to make me feel bad, guilt me into accepting his behavior as a result of my guilt, make me afraid I will lose everything.

I wanted to add to what catfamiliar said about setting the boundary on yourself. If he does X then I respond with Y.

For example he was trying to goad you this morning, he’ll try to bait you for attention and to sooth him.

You’re right, I would also remove myself from the situation, go out and have coffee with a friend or family member, go out and do errands, go for a walk, just going outside for fresh air is soothing.

He can blame all he wants, he’s changing reality because he’s hyper sensitive, emotionally immature and can’t self reflect. Blaming you or changing reality doesn’t make it your reality. Don’t assume the blame, you don’t have to say anything, just leave at his feet. I think what is really important do what you’re doing her and  get feedback so you don’t confused and lose yourself in the FOG.

The one thing that you have is self control, it’s something that he doesn’t have and can’t take from you. Work with what you have.

He is really throwing up the FOG like there is no tomorrow.  Came home last night in a very sour mood.

Later I ask if he needs anything.  Asked why, what the heck am I going to do.  I say, take a shower. H says, no... I don't, you can do whatever the eff you want since that's all you seem to want to do. 

I end up falling asleep on the couch taking care of the baby.  He comes out and was like, I see you're not going to get up, I guess I will just starve, I should had stopped at McDonalds, you can sleep out here on the couch tonight since you love it so much.

There was misunderstanding about the front door bring locked.

He said, you straight up lied to my face.  I said I thought it was.  He left the door wide open.  I close it and I swear I locked it.  He comes out and asks if I did, I say yes, he opens it and says no I didn't.  I said, yes I just now locked it.

He proceeds with... You lied again to my face, why do you keep doing this, liars go to hell, I'm going to make sure it feels that way while you are here, we don't have a relationship anymore, I don't deal with lying a** bit** cu**s, you're going to regret it, don't you have anything to say, I have a plan to you, you're going to regret it when you're back living with you're parents without your kids.  I said I don't have an answer, I'm not going to participate in this conversation.
Half of this,was from the other room from where I was.

Wow! It's been non-stop with him.

I hope you see that you're doing everything you can to be a kind person while he's looking to bait you. Those kind of digs from my ex would, over time, make me doubt myself. That's why they try to use that strategy.

This "lying" thing is his attempt to take you down a notch. He's been able to use it in the past, just about misunderstandings and has been able to get an apology out of you. Stand strong. You are not lying, nor are you a liar. Don't let him try to damage your self-esteem this way.   

I appreciate validation that this whole lying thing is his attempt to bring me down.  You're right.  Worked in the past.  He knows that is the one play he has that always strikes a nerve with me.  I hate being called a liar and he constantly makes it know he hates them.  It's his strongest thing he has going to make me feel guilty and in the wrong.

What sucks even more is I take the bait.  I admit guilt, I apologize, etc.  I can't keep doing that.  I already know its going to be a very bad day.  I hate having days off work with him.  I use to enjoy it, but like clockwork he ruins it and then says it's because of me.

I've been limiting my interaction with him. Finding reasons to be in the other room, keeping busy, keeping conversations neutral.  It's very hard when almost everything is his attempt to bait me into validating that nobody listens to him, admitting guilt about the lying, threatening that I'm going to lose everything, how I'm going to regret it.  I'm waiting for the part where he says I'm ignoring him because I'm not engaging in these conversations.  He's a master at mind games and manipulation to get the results he wants. 

Yep, and you're going to have to extinguish this bait so it no longer works. Remember the concept of intermittent reinforcement. As awful as it is to be called a liar, keep on remaining neutral whenever he does that. When he can't get a rise out of you, he'll quit.

I had to do the same thing with being called "selfish". That really got on my nerves because my mother had successfully used that as a motivational strategy to make me feel guilty and help more. I finally got to the point of realizing what a hold that word had on me and how it wasn't really true anyway, though admittedly I am selfish at times, who isn't? Then the word had no power over me.

I'd suggest you do the same with the word "liar". As others have said, we all tell white lies sometimes and we occasionally misspeak, so what? When you don't flinch when he tries to use that word with you, then it will have lost its power.

On another topic, do you think he'd really try and take the kids from you? After all, this is a guy who can't seem to even fix food for himself. If he had to do all the tasks that you do for the kids, I doubt he'd want to have all that responsibility.

This level of persistent aggression is alarming. Have you spoken to any kind of domestic abuse hotline? It might be time to consider a restraining order and to get him out of the house.

Hi, Frankee!  Sounds like your pwBPD has worked really hard to get you to buy a very black-and-white version of the truth – especially when it suits his purposes. So if you misspeak, it’s a lie. If you take a wild guess and you’re wrong, it’s a lie. If you say orange and it’s really more of a tangerine, it’s a lie.  I can relate.  That happens to me, too.  In fact, I sometimes get so flustered, knowing that if I give a wrong answer or say the wrong word it will mean a blow up, that I actually say the wrong words or lose my ability to craft a coherent sentence. And, of course, that “proves” his point.  Do you find that happening to you? 

If you did outright lie on purpose, I think I could easily understand why.  I’m guessing that his jealousy, unfounded as it might be, makes you afraid to say that you talked to a man or are going to meet a man, even for the most innocent of reasons and even though you know you have no intention of betraying your partner. That’s beside the point, but I want you to know that if that ever does happen, that doesn’t make you a bad person or a liar. It just means you’re afraid, and trying desperately to maintain a very fragile peace.

I’ve sat here for a while trying to think of some bit of wisdom for you, but the truth is that I’m just as hurt, angry and exhausted as you are.  I want to thank you for sharing this experience so honestly.  Reading the responses you’ve received and given is a huge benefit for those of us traveling this same journey.

By the way, I've read through this whole thread twice, and failed to see where you messed up. You reacted in a way you didn't like, but who among us hasn't?

Hi Frankee,

How are you feeling today?    I am really glad to see you here and posting. 


I will admit that I am exactly in the same place as flourdust is, in his post.     This level of persistent aggression is concerning.      Because I have been following your story for a while I know you contacted the domestic abuse hotline on Nov 7.    So this has been going on for about a month.    That's a long time.


I'm not an expert, just experienced.    I know that the lines of mental illness and abuse sometimes cross.     I know that the various mental illnesses can overlap.   Here is the thing though.   Abuse is Abuse no matter which diagnosis the abuser has.   I am concerned at how much longer this can continue before one of you flashes over.

What you are describing is a lot of emotional blackmail  (threats, anger, warnings, intimidation, or punishment). It’s a form of manipulation.      I am going to suggest you google Narcissistic Abuse.   I am referring to the adult to adult or relationship Narcissistic Abuse.   

Is it time to think about your next step?   

'ducks

I would agree with babyducks on this comment especially, as it's the reason I've come on to respond to your update.


Having been in the awful position of living one day to the next, I can see that this is where you are right now.  What is your long term goal here Frankee?  You have children and he is regularly threatening to take them from you.  How does that make you feel?  I'm sure that somewhere inside you are scared of what he might to do act on this.  How can you protect yourself and your kids?  I'd advise you to seriously think about your options.  This type of pervasive abuse is not sustainable for any of you.

Love and light x

 

I'm going to talk to my H tonight when we have time alone.  I'm going to talk to him about me leaving.  I have weighed my options with an extremely heavy heart.  I talked to a friend who knows my H from a few years.  She gave me advice that I think is my best bet.

Today escalated to a very dangerous point.  He accused me of the lying.  He then got angry because I wasn't going to talk to him when he was enraged.  It ended up with him grabbing me, throwing me on the bed, and trying to smack me. I panicked and reacted.  I put my feet on his chest and shoved him to where he slammed into the wall.  I think I took him by surprise because he didn't put his hands on me after that, but wouldn't left me leave the room.

We talked for a long while after that.  Nothing good.  He had determined that he was done, wants me out of the house, says he doesn't want to be with a habitual liar, etc. We never got to a resolution.  I refused to leave.  He refused to give me a second chance.  I decided to talk to him about what the next step we are going to do. 

Going to tell him that if he really wants me to leave, I will.  I'm not abandoning my family, I'm going to be here for the kids for whatever they need.  I'm going to be in their lives, and that I'm not running away.  I really want to take the kids and run, but I don't have the ability to take them right now.  My friend and I have plan.  She's going to be there for me with whatever I need.  I need to get out first safely.  Then I'm going to be there for the kids.  Check in on them and see how they are doing.  I need to be very cautious with how I handle this.  If I exit this way, I feel it is a lot safer than grabbing the kids and running.  I firmly believe they aren't in danger, but he may do something to me if I try to run away with the kids.

I need this separation because me staying here is causing the situation to deteriorate rapidly.  I can't change him, neither one of us is happy anymore.  Even now, waiting for him to come home to talk, he's texting, asking questions. 

I am not going to involve law enforcement or restraining order yet.  I honestly don't believe a piece of paper or this local law enforcement is able to protect me.   Not to mention it's a she said he said and he has a way of convincing people of things he wants them to believe.

Recording apps on phones can eliminate he said she said.

This is a very serious situation.  The physicality and not letting you leave a room are all crimes in most jurisdictions. 

I would hope you could involve others in a way that shines light on abusive behaviors.  Is there an domestic abuse agency you could connect with?

FF

Hi Frankee,

I absolutely know you are not abandoning your family.    I know you will be there for you kids.

Please do not go this alone.    This is serious and you should avail yourself to all the benefits of professional support that are out there.

The time that is most fraught,   most dangerous is when one partner attempts to leave an abusive relationship.    Often things flash over then and get out of control.

I know you've spoken with the National Domestic Violence online chat personnel and found them helpful.  www.thehotline.org/ (http://www.thehotline.org/)

Please get in contact with your local chapter.    

'ducks

Can you hold off on any more talk of leaving? 

If you had decided to leave, I'm not suggesting you stay.

Babyducks is right.  Leaving is usually the most dangerous time.  Talking to him about it is likely to result in more anger and anxiety (triggering abandonment fears... .etc etc)

We'll help all we can, but I'm sure you would agree there is a certain amount of nuance and understanding that is lost in the online format.  Nothing compares with being able to sit down, in person and tell your story and let someone trained in these situation assess the danger level and your best course of action.

Please reach out to your local chapter.

FF

Short update.  After I talked to my friend, I talked to him.  She gave me the courage to talk to him.  I wanted him to see that I would leave if that is what he really wanted.  I had found a local women's shelter I was going to go.

Remained very neutral on my statements, no accusations or blaming.  Came down to saying if he really wants me to leave I will and I won't go far.  He said nothing.  No response.  No anger.  Just sat in quiet.  What seemed like forever, he started asking me what bills are due this week.  I kept my distance from him for most of the night.  Kept everything very neutral.  I didn't want to give any feeling that I was still planning on leaving.

I never once said before that I would leave willingly.  This gives me time to make a safety and exit plan.  I talked to my girl friend and she's going to get resources and make preparations.  I'm going to pack a grab bag if it comes down to this again before I get everything in place.  I'm going to search out a local counselor that takes my insurance and meet with them.

 
I'm glad you are preparing.  I'm glad you have a shelter lined up.

Do they have free counseling at the shelter... .or somehow affiliated with it?

Staying neutral is key.  Trust me... .he doesn't "want" you to leave.  When his emotions are bonkers... he does "want" you to leave and has NO MEMORY of wanting you to stay.  He likely "kinda" remembers what he said trying to chase you off and has shame about it.

Perhaps next time he asks you to leave, give his a pad of paper and pencil and ask him to list out how it will work.  Less verbal... .more writing.

Express sadness about it but turn to solutions and how it would work... .let him do ALL the work... it's his idea.

Thoughts?

A local... in person counselor is critical!

FF

Hi, again!  Thought of you often throughout the night and am very distressed to see that things got physical.  So sorry you had to experience that.  

I really want to caution you to do all of your homework before you make a decision to leave without your children. In some circumstances, the legal ramifications of that decision can complicate your ability to take custody later - especially if it's contested.  Not suggesting you stay or go.  You will make the right decision for yourself and your kids.  Just cover all of your bases.  Maybe the current lull in activity will provide you enough time to be thorough.

@Frankee... .I want to echo what @forlorn has stated, I understand that you are in a very tough spot, just think it through, and be careful, I do not know the ages of your children, but to me this would increase the risk factor if they are young ones... .know that we here and listening, and are thinking of you, and you are in our thoughts and prayers... .you are not alone.

v/r Red5

Frankee,

I'm interested to know who your home belongs to?  Is it a joint property or just that of your H?

Speaking to a local DV advocate now that you have a plan to leave is a must.  Try to keep things calm at home and act normal.  Be ready to get out for a short time if you see the signs that led up to the violence.  Act early.  Go for a walk, remember something you need to go buy, say a friend asked you to call round as she's in need of you for something.  Steer clear of the kitchen and bathroom in the early stages of his temper is rising.  Just remove yourself from the situation, take a breather and then return when he has settled down a bit. 

The DV advocate can walk you through the process of making preparations if you plan to leave and may be able to advise a shelter that takes families.  I know of communities where families are located temporarily in the UK.  It is different in different countries.  You won't know what they can support with until you speak to them and you might be surprised at how comprehensive that support can be.  I'm afraid that leaving your children in the care of a man with a short fuse could leave you in a constant state of anxiety and unable to benefit from the time and space away from him to repair yourself from what you've been through.  Please take the advice offered here and think carefully before you act.  Getting this right is very important for yourself and your children, so knowing your options is the first thing to strive towards.  Do you have the number of a local agency you can call?

Love and light x 

Frankee, I know it takes great courage to do what you are doing.  Harley Quinn has some great advice.

Make sure your safety and the safety of your children and pets is the priority.  I agree that you should not announce your plans to leave.

DV counselors and agencies often have legal consults available to guide people in the practical matters of leaving a DV situation. 

Frankee, having had many friends and a sister who have had to make use of DV services, I can tell you that here in the US, many DV shelters are equipped to take in families.  They will also be able to connect you with a variety of legal services as well as mental health services for you and your children. With the proper assistance you can create a plan that works for you, making it much easier to execute than trying to make decisions on the fly.

I hope all of this isn't feeling like there's any judgement regarding how you proceed. I think we all just want to see you and your kids - and your husband, for that matter - in a safe situation.

I don't know if this is the first time your husband has been physical toward you, or if it's the first time he kept you confined.  What I can tell you from my very own experience is that once that particular cat is out of the bag, it's very difficult to put it back in.

Wishing you peace of mind.

I agree with forlorn, also having had experience with this.

And yes, please do check out what services are available in your area for you and your children. DV folks have seen it all and can assist you in a variety of ways.

I didn't seek help when I left, but it would have been much better if I had.   

Adding my voice to those urging you to consult an expert in child custody in DV situations. IF you leave without your kids (I recognize there could be a situation where you have no choice), you may actually be greatly helped by immediately getting a DV protection order. In many jurisdictions, that would require him to leave you AND kids alone till further court action. It’s understood that kids are often why partners on the receiving end of violence don’t feel free to leave.

I’ve been in this situation myself and urge you to think through why you are discussing leaving with him. Are you trying to affect his behavior by acquainting him with its possible outcome? I agree with Cat that once this line has been crossed it is easily crossed again; you should assume he will hurt you again. He is very angry and sees you as the cause. You are not going to talk him out of that; it’s probably happening at a subconscious level for him.

Or are you trying to placate him and achieve safety by making yourself inoffensive by offering to leave? I get that impulse, but it is further indication that things are at an extreme point. If you are offering to leave your kids behind to negotiate safety for yourself, the situation is pervaded with emotional and physical violence.

Please do an exercise just in your own head: say to yourself “me leaving is my decision, it is not up to him,” about 1000 times a day. Whether he wants you to leave is perhaps the least important question.

As I said, I was in a similar situation, with a small child. After reaching the point you’re at now, it took me two more years to actually leave. There wasn’t violence all the time. But his rage was always below the surface and when something felt wrong to him, the impulse to control the bad feelings by physically controlling or hurting me never left. Once that pattern is established, NOT returning to it is unusual. You actually have all the information now about what this is going to be like. I know it’s hard to swallow that and not wait and hope that you can somehow navigate it. But it doesn’t do anyone including your H any favors to play this out.

Frankee,
How are you? What's going on? Let us know when you have a chance.

 
Cat

Hello.  Things are still on shaky ground.  Had an incident yesterday.  Our oldest didn't have any clean pants.  I almost kept him home because it was cold and I didn't want him wearing shorts.  I made a bad call and sent him to school.  I had a feeling it was a bad idea when a teacher made a comment about his legs being cold.  Then I pick him up and saw that the nurse had given him a pair of pants.  Not a shining moment as a mother.  Felt like... oh great, they probably think he's some needy kid who doesn't have clothes.  So Monday I have to return the pants, tell them thank you and explain the misunderstanding.

My H comes home last night.  It was fine for awhile.  Then I heard our youngest cry, think he got too hot.  I pick him up and start rocking him to sleep.  My H brought up about the pants because I had written on the board to buy a couple more pants for him.  He asked about it.  Asked what our son wore that day.  I instantly wanted to lie and tell him pants.  I knew that I needed to come out with the truth because no matter how mad he got about the truth, he would come unglued if I lied.  He blew up.  Ranted and raved.  In so many words implied I was a bad mom and now going to end up getting social services involved.  By this time, our youngest had fallen asleep on my shoulder and oblivious to what was going on.  My mind instantly went to my grab bag.  I haven't gotten my emergency items together, but I was remembering where it was.

When there was a lull in his rant, I used the moment to excuse myself to put our youngest back to bed.  I stayed in the room even after I put him down and heard my H making snide remarks about the situation to himself.  I made busy work cleaning and such until bed time. 

He took a shower and I took the time to lay down and relax for a minute.  I fell asleep and didn't hear him come out.  He put his hand on my arm and woke me.  He apologized for yelling, said he didn't mean it, I wasn't a bad mom, mistakes happen, all we have to do is make sure he has clean pants Monday and return the clothes to the nurse.  I talked to him and said that I already felt bad about what happened and knew I had made a bad choice after I sent him to school.  He hugged me and said that it was okay and that I wasn't a bad mom, how he knows how much I do for the kids, how I do more than he does and he knows I love them.

I still am packing my grab bag tonight and hiding it.  I believe his apology, but I already know that it's a bandaid on a larger problem. 

Oh, yeah, sorry.  Meant incident with my H.  Or bad situation ... However needs to be worded  :)

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