BPDFamily.com

Hi guys.
I haven't been on here in a while. Things were going pretty good I guess. I don't know if anybody remembers but my uBPDh got a puppy about 6mo ago. It was a mess at the beginning with him deciding that he had not bonded with the dog. That situation improved and they were doing really well together.
Well tonight Jack the golden retriever puppy (6mo) got in his rabbits and killed 4 of them. My husband chased the dog into the house, screaming, and brought 2 dead rabbits into the house in front of the kids, screaming how he was going to kill the dog. Then physically picked the dog up and threw him out of the house.kids were all crying.  I was making dinner. Left it in the pans, packed the kids up and we are sitting at McDonald's. I'm having a hard time calming down.
This morning I was working with my 4 year old who is leaning to read, my husband needed help with the printer so I helped him. When I came back to my daughter I apologized for the inturuption. This upset my husband and he started going on about how I treat him like an interruption. I just said I think everyone deserves respect. And packed the kids up for the library. So we were already off to a bad start today.
And I just got a text saying it's about time I take some responsibility for my own actions and what I say. Lots of profanity from my husband all day too. In front of the kids.
Just feeling so hurt, and confused. What do I say? How do I set some boundries here? I just feel like crying.
Thanks all

Hello Lakebreeze,


What an awful scene, I am so sorry.  I can imagine you were concerned for the dog, your children, yourself, and possibly even your husband.  Wow, that was horrible.  Packing the kids up and leaving for McDonald's was exactly the right move.  That was in fact, a perfect example of good boundary use.  There was something beyond an acceptable limit, and you used your behavior to protect yourself and your kids from it.

Backing up to the start of the day, you probably know this, but I want to say it out loud, apologizing to your daughter for the interruption was simply thoughtful parenting.  Sometimes the BPD behaviors come from out of left field so fast, we don't know how to react to them.  If you're looking for opportunities for improvement, ask yourself if you did any JADE, or if you might have validated more, but do not feel bad about what happened.  You acted normally, and got an abnormal reaction due to the illness.

You have already said so much to your children through your actions!  You removed them from the scene, showing them that anger like that is not acceptable.  You may or may not want to explicitly talk to them about your husband's behavior.  You understandably may not want to speak ill of your husband to the children, but children who have witnessed a traumatic incident like that often need the other parent to clearly reassure them that what happened was not OK.  Otherwise, the other parent's inaction seems to endorse something that the child thought was not OK, and this conflict can be very upsetting.  You might choose to say something like, "Behavior like that is not OK, which is why we went to McDonald's."  That places the focus on the behavior, not your husband as a person.

What other restorative steps could be taken?  A funeral for the bunnies?  Allowing the kids to show some tender loving care to the puppy so they know he's OK?

If you want to address this incident with your husband, you are going to want to wait until a calm time, and use SET.  But he is likely to be very ashamed of the incident, so talking about it could be difficult.  Remember you cannot control his behavior.  Validating his sadness over the loss of the bunnies would be good -- I am sure that was very upsetting.  You could say that the safety of the bunnies is very important to you, and work with him on ways to keep the bunnies safe.  Six month old puppies get into a lot of trouble and the only way to prevent it is to make it impossible for it to happen.  Our large dog liked to "table surf" and developed a fondness for loaves of bread.  If the dog got bread, it was my fault for leaving it on the counter.  Did the puppy break into a pen or hutch, or were the bunnies hopping around in the same yard as the dog?  Your solution is almost certainly going to involve constant physical separation of your predator puppy from your prey rabbits.

Please let us know how you, the kids, your husband, the puppy, and the remaining bunnies are doing.



WW

WW,
Thanks from the bottom of my heat for taking the time to reply. I'm not sure why this one got me so upset but you really helped put it in perspective.
I so badly want to do right for my kids. I know you get that as a fellow parent.
Hopefully tomorrow will be a fresh new day
How are you doing?
Thanks!
Lakebreeze

Hi Lakebreeze, I'm glad I was able to be a little bit helpful.  We both are up too late!  (Or maybe where you are it's too early?).  I'll PM you with an update on me.

It's pretty easy to not spend time on the site when things are going well.  Life is so busy!  But calm times are the best times to make progress, and we can help you with that.  During the "good" times recently, what tools were you using that seemed to work well?  Where there any behaviors of your husband's that still were challenging?  Any successes or happy things you'd like to share?

Take your time replying.  I'm sure you just want to have a calm day tomorrow, and have your hands full with all those people and creatures!  Have a peaceful day!

WW

Hi Lakebreeze,

How did things settle out with the dog drama?

WW

Dear Lakebreeze, What an awful senario. I hope a semblence of peace is restored. I'm so sorry especially for your children having to experience such cruelty towards your beloved puppy. My heart actually hurts for all of you. Please... .find a good home for your pup so he can't be targeted in the future. Pets are animals and have different instincts.  I'm so sorry this whole thing happened. :0(

Hi Lakebreeze,

Any updates?

It sounds like you got yourself and the kids to safety. I just wanted to share our  Safety First  (https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety_first.pdf) document with you to help you plan for situation in the future that may cause you to need to get help.

Is your dog ok? Was he injured when your H threw him out? Or was it more scary because you weren't sure what he was going to do to the dog? Either would be pretty upsetting to me. I've found my puppy hiding in a closet before when my H was raging. I felt so sad for him and I can imagine how difficult it could be for the children to watch. I don't know that you necessarily should get rid of your puppy, because after all, dogs get attached to their families and it can be more traumatic to separate them from the family, but when making a safety plan, you may want to include how to protect any pets in the house too.

Hi WW, TH and Chynna,

Thanks for the posts. To log in and find "how is it going" messages is really heart warming. Good people here.
So to pick up where I left off, sitting in McDonald's with the kids. Took the kids home after that and my husband didn't speak to me for 5 days. He went to the bars several times, drank at home too.  Very typical for him after a major rage/ dysregulation. I got one text from him saying that we should probably separate. I didn't respond.

So evening of the 5th day after I had the kids in bed I sat down on the couch and told him I was sorry he lost his rabbits. I knew how much effort he had put into them, how proud he was of them. He immediately apologized for the incident and promised it would never happen again. This is almost a different topic here but he has decided that he will never go to counseling again because it is "un biblical." He is planning on doing lots of Bible study and unpon becoming a new creation he will no longer experience anger. More on that in a bit. He wanted to keep the dog( because it would upset the kids) but have nothing to do with him. I told him that ignoring and being hostile to the dog is no way to show our kids how to care for anything. I told him we could rehome the dog or keep him and show the kids how to properly love and care for an animal. His choice. I'd support him either way.

The next morning when the girls got up he told Jack ( the dog) that he forgave him, he was just a puppy, didn't know any better. The girls were thrilled ( " Daddy! You will feed Jack now? Do you love him again?"

So the story should really end there and I'm kind of embarrassed to say it didnt. That night after the kids were in bed H made some comment about the kids being ok... .And I saw red. Everything I'd ever leaned about validating and not JADEing and staying calm went out the window. I broke every rule. I was so angry. I told him that the kids aren't ok and I'm not ok and that his promising to change was a joke and a lie, that his apologise are worthless, that I had heard every word if it before. He countered with how sinful it was for me to be angry and started quoting Bible verses. I never use profanity but I'm pretty sure I did. Not my finest hour.

I apologized for loosing my temper and told him that I wished I could have said what I needed to say in a calm way. He is happy again and in a very religious phase. So we are ok again.

I scared myself. I haven't lost it like that since before I knew about BPD. I called the therapist that I had seen before but he can't see my anymore because he had done Hs drunk driving counseling (court ordered) and our marriage counseling so he can't see me individually. He said he would refer me to someone but I haven't heard back. Maybe it's the pregnancy hormones. I don't know.

Then there is H. Counseling is " un- biblical" so he will never go again. He is patiently waiting for God to make him a new creation so my being impatient and saying raging in front of the kids it not ok is the equivalent of me not believing or trusting in God. He says that because I'm Catholic it prevents him from getting the help he needs by going to Bible studies. I have never stopped him from attending any Bible study or church of his choice or anything. Where do I go with this? Or is this not my problem? He fed me this same line that last time that he raged at me and the kids because the wind broke the patio table. That was 3 months ago. I could almost mark my calendar for 3-4 months from now for the next episode.

Thanks all for reading, I know this got really long. And it's hardly about a dog anymore. Any insight at all is greatly appreciated!

You are one of those good people!  We are glad you're here!

Good  |iiii

Good work!  Nice to find that opening to validate.  I know that with my wife's dysregulations if I tried a repair too soon, it just didn't work.  Things had to calm down first.  Wow, five days is a long time.  Is that typical?  We were more like 2-3 days.  Everyone is different.

Sigh.  Well, you're not going to JADE and with your boundaries you'll let him own his stuff.  But just between us chickens here, I bet someone with a biblical mindset could come up with a kick*ss justification for counseling.  The book "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend, which I'm sure I've recommended, is pretty much constructed fully on biblical references.  Maybe you should leave that on the coffee table   (I'm not sure that is a formal WW recommendation  )

Good work!  It takes guts to take a stand like this.  Our pwBPD can make things mighty uncomfortable for us and it's so much easier to not take a stand.  Nice job  |iiii

Nope.  But it's not like we're BPD skills-slinging robots with no feelings.  We are human.  We have our limits.  We don't need to add up all the creatures and humans you're responsible for, not to mention the one inside you!  (I saw a show the other day where a pregnant woman said, "Excuse me, I'm busy turning food into a human over here!"  I thought that line was a good one  )  So, cut yourself a break.  You'll nail it next time.


Stay on that.  It takes time to find a therapist, and everyone's always asking you for other stuff.  But all those humans and creatures need you to take care of yourself, even if they don't know it!

Yup, totally.  That Catholic aura just throws off progress in all other areas.

Hmm... .You know the answer to this.  But since you asked... .no, not your problem!

Good news/bad news, isn't it?  You've got 3-4 months to prepare, to learn, to grow.  Calm times are the best times to make progress.

Hardly!  It's good to hear from you.

You are doing well.  Keep reading about the tools and brushing up.  Keep turning food into a human.  And don't be a stranger! :)

WW

I'm glad that you are all safe and that you are looking for T for yourself. Sucks that you can't go to someone that you trust and know already.

Is this religious thing a phase that he goes through every now and then or did something happen to cause him to start believing counseling is unbiblical and that just reading the bible will help?

Would he be open to meeting with a pastor or get counseling at a local church? Often times a pastor will suggest that someone seek real T and that may help him get out of this idea that T is not from God. 

I hate that he is using religion as a way to punish you. Often when it comes to religion, pwBPD want all the grace associated with the Christian faith, but they want to give out the judgment to others. It can be very alienating. I would say that it's probably better to just let this phase fizzle out and not give it too much thought. If you do start to see real changes in him, then you know that he is taking it seriously. The Catholic comments are just there to try to get your goat.

Does it bother you when he says it? If so, then let's try to figure out a way that you can address his mean comments.

  This! I put it on an index card. Thank you for that line. It was huge.
As for his dysregulation time, yes 5 days even as long as 7 days.
Unfortunately that boundries book. I have it. I've even left it on his night stand. Im pretty sure he has never picked it up.
I still haven't heard back from the therapist for a referral. It's a bummer because he was an excellent therapist. He really grasped the whole situation and gave me so much to think about. Like when I read your posts WW I hear it in that therapists voice. Ok that was probably wierd. LOL
Here's to 3 months of growth.
Thanks for your thoughtful response!

Hi TH! Thanks for taking the time,
Yes, the biblical phase kind of comes and goes. That part that is most obvious it that he starts to want to debate religious issues. Last night it was " once saved, always saved." He has never attended a church untill last week when he went on a Thursday night. He is usually works the weekend and is unavailable on Sunday. He decided counseling was un biblical when he decided he wanted to stop seeing the last therapist for couples counseling. ( Not completely accurate... .HE spent a session yelling at the therapist and the therapist told him they weren't a good fit) while he said he would see a pastor instead. Then he found a man on YouTube who convinced him that counseling and all mental/psychological help is un Godly and un-biblical.
Yes, the Catholic comments do kind of bother me. It's probably just that he knows it is a "button" issue for me. It stems from when we got married I made a big deal about how important it was to me to be married in the Catholic Church, raise kids Catholic with 2 Catholic parents. I said I wouldn't marry someone who wasn't Catholic. It was a deal breaker for me. So that really bothers him now. I certainly NEVER bring it up.
The last therapist said some couple's have alcoholism and we have religion.

I grew up in a deeply Baptist community in the South going to a Baptist Church at least 3 times a week. So, I've heard some of the same stuff your husband is now spouting off. Someone with a mental health problem must have offended God in some way, right? <dripping with sarcasm if you cannot tell> But, I would politely disagree with others that your husband should turn to religious leaders during this time for psychological help. They have no idea. In fact, they could end up doing a great deal more harm. I have an Aunt with schizophrenia. Local preachers tried to "help" her by performing an exorcism (you Catholics don't have a monopoly on those... .).

When I was in college, I really struggled with depression. My parents sent me to a Christian counselor who told me that all my depression was based on the fact that I was sinning in the eyes of God. As a nonBPD, I was like "well, that's messed up to say to someone". Could you see how that same message could be received by someone with BPD? Good grief!

Perhaps it's my kneejerk reaction, but I'm always wary about encouraging someone with mental health issues to seek religious counseling first and foremost. Once again, I realize others might have different experiences.

Also, you should be offended by the Catholic statement. It's a dig at who you are.

My two cents... .

I'm glad it helped.  I learned that line from a mentor coaching girls soccer.  It really works! :)

You are an ironwoman.  A Navy Seal of "nons."

OK, so that's funny and not funny at the same time.

Bummer.  If you don't hear back, what's your "Plan B" to track down some names?  I'm sorry, though, that you haven't heard back.  Trying to hunt for a therapist is a big chore!

No worries!  That's nice :)  Do I sound more like George Clooney, James Earl Jones, or Mr. Rogers?  :)

Hoorah!

You are most welcome!

WW

 Hi walkinthepark,
Thanks for your 2 cents. I aways appreciate the input.
I totally get where you are coming from. Not from personal experience but from realizing that you can find a "Christian" pastor, counselor, elder etc on YouTube that will tell you anything and back up any opinion anybody happens to have. It a little rediculous. Yesterday he had a guy on you tube saying all mental illness is a result some specific biblical belief about Jerusalem... .I could barely believe my ears.
You said exactly how I feel every time I hear it. It makes me want to JADE so bad. It's so frustrating when your BPD has found a button and knows it.

:)   hmmmm Maybe James Earl Jones but far calmer and much wiser.

Thank you! :)  Rough night, I needed a smile.

WW

Lakebreeze,

You and I haven't talked a lot in the past and it's good to meet you. I also just got a puppy that my kids adore. Seriously, they put blankets on the dog and sing to her. I was really reticent to get a dog. In the end, my therapist has told me over and over that I needed stop making my life revolve around my uBPDw.

In the past, my wife has abused a former dog of ours in a fit of rage. She threw it across the room. It was a very scary event. This was before I even knew the acronym "BPD". Now, so much of the past rage events make sense to me. So, I know the concern of abuse of animals (and the effect it has on those around you).

I don't remember reading it exactly, but what did you do to tell your kids that type of behavior is not acceptable? That has been the biggest learning experience for me. Last week, my 5yo and 2yo were playing quietly in a room. They decided to "do makeup" with markers (which were washable). The 2yo came out with some very silly "makeup". My uBPDw went BALLISTIC screaming at the top of her lungs. Sorry, but screaming in rage at the top of your lungs is not appropriate behavior. It was totally uncalled for given the event was something most people would have chuckled about. Seriously, the 2yo looked very funny and was proud of her "makeup". uBPDw was following my 5yo around the house screaming at her. It's times like these that you have to set aside the empathy and validation. As WW referred to it in a previous post, I put on my "Papa Bear" and got between her and the kids. I flat out said that she needed to leave the room until she could calm herself down. "You will not be speaking to her in that manner; you need to leave until you can get a hold of your emotions". My 5yo daughter was visibly shaken in her room. I went in and sat with her and rubbed her back. In addition, I flat out told her that her mother's response "was not right". Seriously, my daughter was extremely scared. She needed to hear that from me. In addition, I told her that a) she shouldn't draw on her sister's face and b) the makeup was kinda funny at the same time. Whether this was the exact right approach, I do not know. I do know that my daughter hugged me for a long time after this.

If your kids love the dog, I would encourage you to do everything possible to keep the dog. What did it for me is seeing studies that showed that pets teach kids about empathy and caring for another being. As my therapist said, my kids are growing up an a less-than-ideal situation. I have to do everything in my power to make it as good as possible.

walkinthepark247 and Lakebreeze, I think you are both doing a great job.  Hitting that balance is quite a trick -- if we get angry, we make the situation more scary.  If we try to keep the peace, we fail to protect.  Hopefully those situations where we have to be assertive like that are few and far between.

walkingthepark247, has this incident come up in conversation with your wife since it happened?  If things are calm, can you see if it is possible to make progress?  Do you think she is able to reflect and understand that her behavior was out of bounds?  Would it be possible to have a conversation that starts off by asking her to help you understand her feelings at the time?  Were their other stressful things going on that day that might have contributed to your wife's dysregulation?

WW

Hi walkinthepark!
Thanks for your thoughtful response! I don't think we have talked but we certainly have kids the same age. Our girls are 5, 4year old twins, and 2. Sounds like we are in very similar situations with a BPD spouse.

I took the kids to McDonald's, and we talked about it. But before I left ( kids were putting shoes on) I explained with h standing right there that we all needed a little time and space to calm down because we were all upset. Then we proceeded in the car to talk about the situation: what the dog did was wrong but that he is a puppy and didn't understand, dogs need their people to teach them what is right. It's ok for Daddy to be sad and upset buts it's never ok to throw things, yell, say the specific things he did. My 5 year old asked if this was a time out for dad... .I wasn't really sure but I told her no, just a time to calm down. I've heard the kids repeating things I said word for word  "Jack is a puppy. He needs us to teach him what is right. But we still love him etc" so I have to think some of it got through.
The kids LOVE this dog. Lay on the floor and cuddle everything so thanks for your two cents on keeping him. I hadn't really thought about the empathy they learn from having pets. Makes me feel much better about trying to make an effort to keep the puppy. Not to mention I have become really attached too.
It's crazy you mention the makeup marker situation. We had the same thing happen. Except she drew a kitty nose and whiskers... .She did a darn good job for a 2 year old. Dont you wonder why on Earth stuff like that is such a nuclear trigger?
I say this all the time. It's like my life motto.


Thanks for the vote of confidence WW! You put it perfectly... .it's finding that perfect balance.
I have tried to have to have constructive discussions after these blow ups, asking to help me understand what triggered you, what were you thinking and I always get "I have no idea, I was perfectly fine and calm and then I was so angry I couldn't control myself." So I'm never sure where to go with those.
Thanks
Lakebreeze

Lakebreeze, in your copious free time... .

[I am pausing to wait while you finish laughing.]

DBT's four modules are Mindfulness, Emotional Regulation, Distress Tolerance, and Interpersonal Effectiveness.  Honestly, I haven't had enough time to dig into them, but I'm guessing these types of situations fall under Emotional Regulation.  I wonder if Googling or searching YouTube for ":)BT Emotional Regulation" or the like might yield one or two tips that you could teach to your husband.  Sorry, some day I'll have enough time to educate myself enough to be more specific.  Lately I've been happy if I can just keep the car driving straight down the road!

WW

Wentworth: "... .some day I'll have enough time to educate myself enough to be more specific... ."

Are you kidding me? I feel like you should write a book!   :)

WW,
LOL there is always time I just have to find it!
Thanks for the DBT suggestion... .I keep looking up anger management and it's not getting me anything new.
And since the suggestion has already been made I'm looking for the book you are going to write.  Better use your pen name so we can all find it! :) smiling, but not even kidding.

Lakebreeze,

Others have suggested this book: https://www.amazon.com/High-Conflict-Couple-Dialectical-Behavior-Validation/dp/157224450X

It is going to be my next read. It was suggested because apparently it doesn't say "you've got BPD". Instead, it works on the skills we need in our particular relationships without any labels. At least, that's my understanding of it based on what others have said here and the reviews.

walkinthepark247, outstanding recommendation!  I have read the book.  Frizzetti is a BPD expert at the University of Washington, but as you said, it doesn't talk about BPD.  It is a great read.  To manage your expectations a bit, though, I was able to get my wife to read it, and she said, "That book has absolutely nothing to do with us.  It's all you."  Sigh.  But I am positive some others will have better luck than I did!  And at the very least, it's still an excellent book for the "non" to read.

WW

"It's all you". That's pretty much what I expect my wife's response would be. As I said in another thread, she found my BPD book stash and read. I didn't leave these around or suggest them to her. Her response was to belittle the books and tell me I have a "problem". When I tried to point out the the books were about improving the relationship, it went nowhere. There have been several instances where I tried to validate and she picked up on it immediately based on reading. She then proceeded to mock the books I have read all over again.

Got it walkinthepark247, understood.

Lake breeze, do you have a safe place to hide your books?   :)

WW