BPDFamily.com

Hi all,

I feel like I've lived a few lifetimes in the past two weeks alone... .My relationship had been teetering on the brink of extinction for the last month before that and I don't know what exactly I said or did shortly before flying home for a funeral, but I guess I "saved" it... .(?) I can't tell exactly and am too exhausted and on the verge of a cold to talk it over with him... .and he left town for a few days any way so we can't... .which is a relief, but I also know nothing has really changed and literally NOTHING is in place to make it better... .

But some recent interventions from family and friends have me leaning more toward throwing in the towel... .as hard as that would be... .I feel at times like I don't have as much say over when and how this ends... .I am just tired of the high stress levels and the way he makes drama. Ultimately it is a question of my health and well-being. I would have liked to keep at this for awhile longer, before I left, but everyone I spoke with while in the States had an influence on me one way or another and I just don't know... .But I've come back and he's so in love and... .yet he's also being controlling, which I can't stand about him... .It is totally unacceptable to me.

With another set of life circumstances I'd ask for a break from the relationship entirely so I could explore (in isolation) my feelings for him and see if I really have it in me to sign up for another tour of duty on this life, but... .It is all or nothing. If it ends I am 1000% certain (we live in separate countries) there will no going back to this - ever.

Can people explore the notion of a breakup with me? (I've never allowed myself this "luxury" because I was so committed to making it better... .now I am mostly concerned about me, though I do have concern for him too.) I have no one in regular life I can bounce this off of. How would I do it? I am scared because this isn't a "normal" relationship. I've initiated breakups before, but I can't imagine how he'd take it and that makes me nervous. I can't envision the dynamic - if he'd try to pull me back in or want to end it to. His unpredictability makes me extremely nervous.

Hey pearlsw, it's normal to fear the unknown, which could be why you feel nervous.  On the other hand, I've discovered that the unknown is also where greater happiness can be found, so don't rule out that possibility.  Why to you say that you "don't have much say" over an ending?  In my view, you call the shots for your own life, though I understand it gets murky in a BPD r/s.  Yet waiting for your pwBPD to change is likely to be a lengthy, thankless vigil.  What would you like to see happen?  What are your gut feelings?  It's all about your happiness, right?

LuckyJim

When I say "I don't have as much say over how it ends" it is because of my complicated circumstances - being overseas, the laws here, having to navigate an international divorce, lacking resources, etc.

Also, he has always positioned himself in the driver's seat about whether the relationship is on or off via his off the charts number of break up threats.

I am just now letting myself have the mental space to entertain the idea of leading a breakup instead of tolerating one more of his control tactic breakup threats. I thought last year I'd leave if I heard one more, but he is a master at flipping things around... .He makes me panic and then I automatically start to "save" things.

I can't be in this relationship at this point unless he gets some help. He forced me, over the holidays, to start contemplating a life without him in a really serious way... .and now that he is away for a few days I want to think it over a bit more... .I am not afraid to be without him in my life, my quality of life would go up, but I am afraid of how down I'll feel while I am rebuilding... .and I am afraid that the family support I had just built up is not longer possible... .my back up plan blew up over the weekend... .

Safety First would be my mantra.

You know he's volatile, is controlling, and makes threats.

So, present the break-up to him as a done deal. Get your stuff packed and out of there, get yourself out of there, and then tell him... .either in a public place or via long-distance communications.

Hi flourdust,

To be clear, he makes break up threats. He hasn't made a breakup threat since before the 25th. Today he is "just" making false accusations. He is trying to make me afraid and jump to him I guess. I don't know. He's in another country, but out of his mind I guess. I am physically safe.

warmly, pearl.

In order to break this cycle, you need to gain enough mindfulness and awareness to observe when this is happening, perhaps to anticipate it.  Sometimes, even breathing before acting, or forcing yourself to delay a response to a frightening situation, gives you enough time to gather your wits and observe things.  Can you tell us more about exactly what happened to precipitate your last "automatic save" response?  What did he say and do?  What were your sensations and feelings?  What did you do in response to them?

This sounds so scary.  A total rebuild must be very intimidating.  No matter where you go in the world, you will have this board and all your bpdfamily.  You will not be alone!

 

WW *)

Hi WW,

Thanks for asking. He was making some false accusations and using that as a basis for a breakup threat. I don't mind if we break up, any reason will do, but I think it being a false one didn't seem right to me at the time.

I begged a little more to stay together than I care to admit, perhaps wanting to avoid "failure"... .this was all before I went to the States for the funeral.

The time in the US changed a lot of things for me. I enjoyed feeling free, having nice people to talk to... .I remembered how great life can truly be. Ya know? I am nice person to be with, and while perhaps this relationship is beyond repair it helped me to see my life is not over. While this may be my last relationship, I lean hard in that direction, it was nice for example for my older brother and his wife and one of my cousins to make me feel "normal" and okay and like I'd given enough on this one.

Reminds me of a conversation with my uncle about his first marathon, or the videos I saw about triathletes as a kid... .those kind of people who crawl to the finish line in order to finish... .But maybe I should just call for a golf cart to come and haul me off the race course. I dunno.

I guess what I wanted to do is explore a break up mindset. How you do it. I am out of practice after all of these years of "saving" things.

If he is just gonna be upset and unstable and push me away... .and I can't be in love enough because of that instability and lack of bonding between us... .I can't keep doing this, ya know?

I am surprised we made it into this month. I don't yet see how we make it past May or June or whenever our 5 year anniversary is. (We've been together 7 total) I guess I do have to give him a little time when he gets back... .maybe? To see where he is at with meds and therapy?

He wrote to apologize and express his shame for how he talked to me today - jealous and controlling. He is asking for closeness. This on/off thing absolutely has to end. He is away so we'll see how this week goes, how many more cycles he'll squeeze in. I can't do this alone anymore, he needs outside support. He has nearly destroyed my feelings for him completely. I can't do anything but take time to think through all the options while I have some down time from him... .Let myself feel what "being alone" feels like and adjusting to the idea incase.

Hi pearls... .

I'll throw this out there for you to kick around some.    

For me the mindset of breaking up was a deliberate choice about where I put my energy.   we were in the middle of a ferocious push.    a lot of "go away babyducks I hate you".    I know I don't have to explain that to you.   and when the push came I allowed myself to be pushed.    if that makes any sense.    I chose to be subtle about it.    

what I found to be the case for us was... .if she pushed and I didn't 'go' it made things worse.   when my ex pushed it wasn't because she wanted the reassurance that I wouldn't leave her... .it was because she wanted to be alone.

I could tell things were building.   you know how you get that second sense?     and then out of the blue I got the "I've had enough,  I am not doing this anymore"email.    

and I said Okay.    just that.   okay.     for about two weeks,  I had the opportunity to "save" the relationship,  and you know what?   I chose to do nothing.   I went back and forth in my head a lot.   Drew some graphs and charts engineering style -   and when there was an opportunity to have a conversation   I didn't.    I just did nothing.

I had that luxury because I knew things were building and I had taken a lot of subtle preliminary steps to have a place to go to.    a bolt hole to run to.  

looking back I can that leading up to that final push... .I had been taking steps to distance myself.    I stopped having those "status of the relationship'   conversations.     I went to bed early,  stayed late at work,... found places to go.   the most important distancing I did was when she dsyregulated I did nothing.     can't say I planned it.   at that point I was so tired I really couldn't have done another intense conversation.


that's really interesting.   what do you think that's about?   is it a condition response?  something else?

'ducks

Hi Pearls

I also live in my husband's country, very different from my own country. I'd like to offer a different perspective because I have thought about this a lot in my own relationship.

Firstly, if we choose to end it, that's our choice and we do have total control over that. Own it... .it's very empowering.

If I chose to end it, I could consider staying in this country but moving to another area out of his reach. Or I could go back to my home country, in which case I could go back to my home state where I have family or I could choose another state where I have friends. Either would be okay, as I'm a native to that country and could build a new life there.

Or, having lived as an expat already, I could choose to explore living in another country that appeals to me. The excitement of learning a new culture and way of life could be just what I need to put a troubled marriage behind me. It might not be forever but a few years could be a great adventure!

You're feeling blocked but in reality, your options are endless!
 

babyducks!  

Yeah, it's odd. I didn't even realize I may have "saved" it til I got back from the funeral and he hadn't filed for divorce or cancelled the lease on the apartment. I fully expected he would not make it that long and would file while I was away or the day I returned. He'd been in that mode, we'd been to lawyers, he was already trying to sell the furniture literally out from underneath me. (I am sorry that is so absurd it makes me want to laugh.) Then suddenly, before I leave he calms again, can't do it... .after making a gigantic drama about it. He was so annoying even his lawyer told him to stop calling her until he's ready to file. So, this "urgent deadline" ended, but there is another big one looming out there... .The 5 year anniversary. (We've been together 7 years, but for legal stuff between us this 5 year mark is huge for him.)

It is such a shame really... .During my trip, despite all the drama there, I did feel much freer, though he was periodically making mini jabs at me for not writing or talking to him enough. I just felt no desire and I managed to dodge it a bit without too much trouble. He does not provide me enough emotional support... .but it's sad. Today he told me he is hurt over this. He feels I am unfair to him and he wants to say something when I tell him my woes, but he can't think of anything. So, I sort of have to feed him his lines. He requested I write out some replies for him and print them out so he can use that as a basis to say more stuff that would be emotionally supportive, give him a bit of a leg up on this stuff. So, I agreed.

He also apologized for his freak outs/false accusations today. I reacted less to them, they are losing some of their effectiveness as a strategy of fear with me. But, in all honesty, if we were two citizens of my home country in our 20's or so I'd be moving out and trying to sort out my feelings and playing the field at this point. Unfortunately, we are in a much more complicated "all or nothing" situation that gives no middle ground. I might be able to fall more in love with him again if he could just go longer before he has his meltdowns and would knock off this controlling b.s... He is ashamed of it, but still, he always uses this method. He needs support to get better and we are heading into, and may already be in, the too little or too late territory.

I panicked (the weekend before I went back for the funeral) because it seemed too early to end things, or for the "wrong reasons". I have been teetering on the edge for a year now. I had told myself in January of 2017 I'd not take one more breakup threat from him and just go. This was before I knew my rights. I have rights and if I want them enforced I'd have to stay and work it through with him and the legal system. That would take 1-3 months I think. I'd have to appear in court I think.

The key now is I have to decide do I now or can I again be in love with him after all this mistreatment? And if I want to give that more time how do I rekindle those kinds of feelings for him because they are nearly non-existent at this point. I detest being with a jealous person and he has sucked the life out of me being so high-maintenance. I can't fit this to any of my "rules". If he is in a mode of wanting to be together do I sort of owe him a bit more time to make it work? Is that how this works? If he wants it should I try and find my way back to him? Is my lack of enthusiasm just temporary? I don't know today. He was nice yesterday and I am happy his job search is starting to look up and I feel like I... .I mean, technically on paper, this "marriage" stuff is a big deal. It could destroy his life if we divorce. Do I "owe" him more chances to make it work because you promise someone "forever" when you start this? I simply don't know.

I think he tries to make me panic at times as a way for me to "prove" my love for him. He is the most insecure partner I've ever had... .and I had to go and make that worse... .I think he manipulates me to get me to desperately "prove" I love him. I think he's said in the past he is accustomed to such drama from his home country, one of them, but also critical of it. I dunno. I can't stand drama of any kind. Not that he ever holds his word, but I asked to promise when we first got together we'd never do a sudden break up and would do at least 6 mo's of counseling before we ever just gave up. I feel like I'd have to offer something to honor that, more time, although there is no way in h--l he would honor his word to me on this... .

Hi SunandMoon, I really appreciate your perspective as an expat too! I am contemplating a range of worldly options... .you are right! :) Another love is not on my radar, I'd rather focus on being independent and happy with myself as a single person.

It is much easier, I've found, to be the one breaking up rather than the one being broken up with. Sorry to say that, but it just is for me. That's why I hadn't done it yet because I could never get to that place mentally... .and I know exactly what that place looks like because I've been there! But this never got me to that point until the last month when he kept saying, "PREPARE TO LEAVE! I WANT A DIVORCE!" Except he doesn't really, but I am starting to think that option is not so bad after all thanks to him repeating it so much!  

Pearls, I will try to be a sounding board for your feelings but with keeping the importance that this is your relationship to decide on.

There has been push and pull in your relationship- not unusual for these kinds of things. I think I have posted before about looking at the cycle and not just the individual ups and downs. Is there a pattern?

While you say you have "saved" your marriage, consider the push pull. It is like a "dance"- familiar steps that two people take- and although there is discomfort, there is a familiarity to the drama. When you are a safe attachment, he pushes you away, threatens divorce but he doesn't go through with it ( at least so far) and comes back after the distance.

Now he has not- but what happened? You went to your home country. The idea that you could leave became real- you could potentially not return. He was off balance- you were not there, and his behavior ( jealousy, calling you) reflected that. No need to push you away - you were away. It may also have triggered abandonment fears.

You will see through observation if his new attitude lasts or the pattern continues.

Hi Notwendy,

Yes, thanks. I get that it is a pattern and I am not in sync with it anymore. But it is so odd... .here I am up late... .Can't sleep because I have bad throat pain and I am... .thinking a lot about this last "save" that I pulled off before I left... .I immediately regretted it in a way, and yet here I am tonight and I am trying to remember the early years and what he meant to me then... .What was it about him that seemed so special to me at the time? There was actually one quite special thing about him... .his understanding about my struggles around my Ph.D. stuff, the way he was so humble and low-key about his doctorate... .the way he was so caring about me (or so it seemed)... .He was so excited to be with me... .It was nice for me to be with someone else from a non-dominant culture, who had just a completely different life... .it felt like entering a whole new world... .It gave me a break with the past that I somehow didn't know I wanted but was happy to take up... .I don't know... .But up late and alone tonight I wonder... .If anything could just break to make this do-able... .You invest so much in a person and a life... .He is so fun to laugh and make jokes with... .I think he genuinely loves me but is just so ill-equipped for a relationship... .I realized though that all it takes is a few days back in my home country and this world here is lost, not a pull on me, not something I need though I like the peacefulness (outside at least)... .

It just breaks me to see him struggle... .even today... .an odd situation came up and I rose up with this strong urge to defend and protect him... .I thought another road rage thing was about to happen and I just rose up like a lion to defend him. Even he was surprised to see how quickly I reacted ready to defend him. I do understand him, probably better than anyone, it would sadden me to "abandon" him with his troubles in life... .but how do I stay with him? D--n this illness for stealing him from me... .for putting more tragedy and loss into my life... .All we wanted to do was make each other's lives better... .it was that simple... .and he just kept throwing all my love back at me... .all these years.

I can't believe how I've been on my knees from heartbreak in these last years... .people just coming and going and one thing or another not being quite right... .

pearl, thanks for sharing everything with us.  I don't have the answers, but wanted to pull this question out of your post.  It is a huge question for folks like us.  pearl, if we focus on this question, what are your thoughts on it? 

WW

HI WW,

Thanks for your concern.

It's hard for me to find a place to settle on this issue. I signed up for better or for worse, but I didn't sign up for misery and control. I didn't sign up to have my love thrown back at me... .But a sticking point for me will always be "illness"... .He is not solid or stable though and I was really dreaming of having more, not less stability in my life... .I have left other partners over so much less in the past. I just really, really wanted this to be my last relationship. (Perhaps I need to let that my attachment to that notion go. It is not serving me well.) I must wait and see where it is at when he gets back. He is acting like we are on, though before I left he was making some pretty unreasonable requests to give us a final 9 month hail mary phase to this thing so it seemed a matter of time before it was off. I am sure, give him a day or two, and it will be off again.

If he comes back from his trip and says he wants to work on this how do I let him down and say no, I can't anymore if I can push through to that point? But what would ever stop these breakup cycles or his controlling behavior which are unacceptable to me and make all else impossible? I can imagine what it would be like to be able to give and receive love in a healthy way and how good that would feel... .or to just be alone and how good that would feel... .but this? This doesn't feel good. I tolerate it, I work with it, but it's really hard and I am tired of the insults, drama, and pain.  I don't quite know how to leave an ill person though - that is a big part of it. I know this isn't cancer, it's actually worse than that... .but his health is wrecking my health and happiness.
 Years ago, before I found the information, I was willing to just go down with the ship, but now I am more inclined to claw my way back to a better spot in life... .

I just wish... I just hate to see him suffer so much... .I've said it in the past, I don't think he'll let me go so easily, but who knows... .I'm also nervous at how this would play out... .

of course it's hard to find a place to settle.    absolutely makes perfect sense that it would be hard to 'land' on one thought or one idea or one conclusion.     a lot of these are new thoughts that are just flickering to life.    a lot of these are thoughts that contradict each other.    I always found that to be the hardest part.    the dichotomy of what I was experiencing.   

I keep something up on my wall,... .I didn't write it... .it says "when fear takes hold, the heart constricts and vision narrows,   and thoughts that insist on doubt, mistrust and disconnection are preceived as truth... .it can be difficult to break this cycle because fear only strengthens itself."

I am talking about us, not our partners and spouses.    when fear takes hold our thinking runs to it's extremes.  that's pretty much human nature but when coupled with a pwBPD it's often difficult to find a stopping point.    for any of us.


I was raised to be a caretaker.     my grandmother was an invalid and my grandfather had suffered a stroke... .my mother was dysfunctional so I went to live with my grandparents to lift and carry and make tea and take the trash out and etc etc etc.    I am a very good caretaker.    but when partnered with my Ex I went way way too far with it.    way way too far.       I took more responsibility than I should have.    It gave me the one up position on the drama triangle.   it was familar.   it was what I knew.

I am not saying to be cold or callus or cruel.   there are some real considerations at play.    but I needed to shift my perspective and loosen the bonds of fear.

for seven years you have thought one way, looked at the relationship through one perspective,   mostly his.   shifting that that perspective to identify what you want, need, feel is a great step.   an important step.    |iiii    keep unraveling the ball of twine.   

'ducks

I am not a cold or callous person, but I also felt I was between two difficult choices with my parents. When my father was ill, I tried to help out- sincerely tried- but each time I visited, I faced my BPD mother's verbal and emotional abuse. If I stood up to her, he also snapped at me. Eventually I began to fear for my own sanity. I also realized that no matter what I did, it would not touch the issue. Yes, my mother has a mental illness, but I can not fix her. It was not out of cruelness or uncaring that I had to set boundaries and pull away from the situation. It was that I felt I had reached my limit about what I could do. I know this isn't the same as a marriage, but the parent child bond is also a special commitment- not something to take lightly.

The issues in my marriage were thankfully not as severe, but were taking an emotional toll. I wasn't happy. Fortunately, they were milder and my H was also committed to staying married. There were no divorce threats and we had children. I think all of us have to weight the balance of cost/benefit to staying or leaving and there are many factors to consider. This is one reason none of us can tell someone else to leave or stay. Still, I think we have patterns of behavior in common in these types of relationships that we can address.

Struggling with the situation with my parents helped me to also make changes in my marriage. I used to listen to the Dr. Laura show- and people may have different opinions about her perspective. I actually at the time, listened and read a lot of different ideas on marriage from different sources- religious, secular, conservative, liberal- I like to look at different perspectives. One thing she did say that resonated with me was her deal breakers for relationships- the three A's: adultery, abuse, addiction. These ideas stood out to me because I don't take marriage vows lightly and she takes them strictly- yet did not feel these were tolerable.

Within the three A's though are shades of grey areas as well. People also have their different tolerances. Two people might agree on an open marriage. Two addicts might understand each other. Do you dissolve a marriage over one affair if the person is remorseful and doesn't do it again. Surely this is different from serial cheating without remorse. Verbal abuse is still abuse but how severe and is there physical abuse?  A recovering alcoholic would be easier to be married to then someone who is not concerned with recovering. We have to have our own boundaries and what we tolerate within the three A's.

Being controlling, threatening divorce is hurtful and emotionally abusive.

Which comes to this- how do we repair relationships? People can make mistakes but the way to restore a relationship is through a process- the person has some awareness that they have done something hurtful and is willing to work at it- to the best of their ability- and consistently. I realize that this is probably my requirement, and may not be someone else's but it seemed to make sense. It also takes both people. I brought my own issues into relationships too.

What I had experienced with my mother and also my H was a "recycle" not a reconciliation. I call it the dry erase method- pretend nothing happened. I think a true apology is hard to get from someone with BPD/NPD. I have rarely heard even a smidgen of one from my mother. I think this triggers a painful sense of shame. She just decides all is good now, is super nice, and I am supposed to pretend nothing happened. From her perspective, nothing is wrong with her, there is nothing to fix, she is fine. The same pattern was going on in my marriage. Periods of affection, then suddenly out of the blue, a blow up, then all is good again. Still, we had a workable situation through MC which was different from my mother. So - two different important relationships - one workable, one not - in my world.

Perhaps a part of your decision is how workable is it? How much is he able or willing to make changes and what is your part in this?

A large part of the work was looking at myself. I think there are aspects of ourselves that lead us into these types of relationships and/or at least keep us in them. I think everyone is capable of being attracted to these often very charismatic personalities, but I personally don't think that someone with emotionally healthy boundaries would remain in them to the point of serious commitment or as long. Many of us grew up in dysfunctional families. Perhaps we learned our own behaviors from our role models or our own family roles, and we need to learn different ones- no matter what our decision is to stay or leave. Either way - we can potentially improve ourselves and how we relate to others.

Hi 'ducks!  

I was at this place once in the past, but somehow I didn't follow through. I am normally pretty decisive about relationship stuff, but this high stakes all or nothing international stuff is a bit much even for me.

A lot of it is a fear of "failure" (for me it is simply things not working out - it doesn't destroy me mentally). I think a typical US breakup I could keep more discreetly to myself, this would reverberate a bit... .but I am getting used to that. The conversations I had in the States, when people saw what I've really been going through were all met with support and understanding. No one told me to stay and work it out. At all.

In the past I've been starkly opposed to using a dysregulation to set off a break up. It seemed unfair to both of us, but for different reasons. I am sure he does not really want a break up, for the most part. We have both said, in the past, we wanted to get past our relationship breakdown and up to a point that meant a lot to me... .but I also saw recently the endless pain he brings... .I mean for goodness sakes, he was really awful in the midst of this death in my family... .really, really awful. He showed no concern for me and was only thinking of himself. It was so... .beyond disappointing, just insulting and careless. And he was more focused on his jealous paranoia than the real things I was dealing with.

I expect there will be more dysregulation threats between now and this legal milestone... .I am not sure how wild this could get... .and work-wise I feel like I am wasting time... .We really ought to talk and make a plan, he and I, but he is so hard to talk with... .so hard, so inconsistent. Nothing you think you've agreed to ever seems to stick.

I am sure not going to make the same "saving" speeches I just made another time. That I am sure of. :) I am gearing up mentally to be ready to take a settlement the next time this hits me in the face again. The settlement is actually a much better deal for me... .but I didn't want the "easy way out" on a relationship. I wanted to feel like I did all I possibly could because there will definitely be no 2nd chance once/if I am gone.

thanks 'ducks, i appreciate you and everyone helping me process this! :)

Hi Notwendy, Oh, I can relate a little on the parents stuff which is why I am estranged from my mom. I just couldn't take more of her stuff... .in her case she had a clear way to make the changes she wanted and open things up with me... .she is just stuck in her own difficult world and that is for her to deal with. I tried to help her in the past, but she has to want help. We aren't "compatible" in some ways really... .I dunno. I actually briefly allied with her during the latest family drama because she too made an effort to reach out to the unexpected folks that showed up at the funeral, and made a point to express my admiration for that, but I digress... .

I don't see myself as particularly unhealthy and I think, honestly, that is a bit to my personal credit... .It also is a source of strength for me in feeling like I am equipped to deal with such things. Health is a big issue for me, meaning not wanting to leave an ill partner... .but is not something that I can't overcome. I have. I know people have a hard time with it at times, but with an international romance, foreign countries, etc. is really a whole other ball game of complication. I have ended relationships over far, far less. In those instances I had the means and network to help make it happen. But it was not easy either. This, by contrast, is financially catastrophic for me and massively difficult down to every last detail. It is a 8 on the Richter scale vs. a 4.

I do get sincere apologies. I have learned to accept that they will be shorter than I might like, but I accept that they are genuine and yes, they are filled with a high level of shame. It's sad really.

The hardest part for me lately is he is simply burning out my feelings for me... .I find him ethically repulsive at times... .I don't feel loyal to him in a normal fashion... .I feel protective of him, but not loyal... .I simply find it hard to relate to how he operates in the world... .I can't count on him to be stable, reliable, predictable, kind... .He has trouble self-soothing and his hyper-vigilance is too much too. He is clingy, needy and selfish at times. It's hard. But... .I signed up... .

thanks for sharing and reflecting with me! :)

Can people explore the notion of a breakup with me? How would I do it?

Very sorry for what you're going through, pearlsw. Such things are never easy or have a clear choice.

However, I would suggest putting in place some safeguards before bringing a  conversation with your spouse forward.

Are you clear in your boundaries with him and how immutable they are? A conversation about divorcing is going to be an excruciatingly difficult thing to navigate, so the clearer you are yourself the clearer you can be with him.

Have you consulted with a lawyer to know what your legal recourse is?

Does the local police department know of your spouse and will they be willing to respond at a moment's notice should things go awry?

 
J

Pearl,
    Where to start... .I've read through all your posts on this thread and there are so many things that resonate with where I was a little over a year ago.
    I have a very long story (27 years of relationship with dBPDstbxh) that I won't go into.  I left him just over a year ago with the full intention to reconcile and restore our marriage.  I had reached a point where I felt I could no longer live with him and achieve that goal.  The level of mental and emotional pain that I was in was translating to physical issues.  I needed space.  
    Like you, I had reached a place where I could barely remember what I had loved in him.  He was not only unattractive to me, I was starting to fear him and feel repulsion.  I hoped that some space between us would bring the level of stress and pain down to a point where we could both remember why we had married and learn what we needed to do to rebuild.
    The biggest lesson I have learned in the past year is that I had to decide whether I was willing to continue in the patterns I was holding to.  I had to imagine a world where nothing would ever change in his behavior.  Was I willing to continue cleaning up his messes?  Was I willing to rebuild our marriage when he set a torch to it?  Was I willing to do so even when he was actively fighting against my efforts?  My answer was "no".  
    :)on't get me wrong, making that decision was a long process.  Changing my behaviors to reflect that answer was an even longer process.  Even after I had decided to stop rebuilding and cleaning, I would find myself continuing to do it.  Thank goodness I have a good counselor and good friends who will point out to me when I'm acting counter to my stated decision.  I spent a fair amount of time inviting, and sometimes begging, dBPDstbxh to rebuild and clean up.  He just kept looking back at me with confusion and anger that I would expect him to take over, or even just share, the responsibility that I had carried for so long.  He kept telling me and others that he wanted our marriage and would do anything to save it, if I would just tell him what he needed to do.  Another big "lightbulb" moment was finally believing what my counselor kept telling me - I had clearly communicated to him what it would take to save our marriage.  I was no longer responsible for continuing to tell him.  Holding him accountable for doing what he knew he should do did NOT look like following him around pointing to the messes and saying "Please clean this up".  Accountability came in the form of the consequences:  the messes didn't get cleaned up and I wouldn't live in a marriage full of those messes.
    I have a few more "lightbulb" moments that I could share, but I don't want to get ahead of where you currently are.  I'd like to hear your thoughts on the following:

Are you willing to continue your current patterns (tolerating the hurt/saving the relationship when he tries to burn it down).
If not, what would the natural consequences that would happen if you stopped following your pattern?
Does your H reasonably know what he would need to do to save the marriage (or at least know where he could go to find that information)?

    Saddly, nobody can make this decision for you.  I can tell you that it's been the hardest decision I've ever had to made, and the consequences of that decision have been incredibly painful, not only for me but also for my children and other people I love.  BUT, despite the pain, I believe I made the right decision.  If I had handed over responsibility for this decision to anyone else (dBPDstbxh, counselor, pastor, friends, family) I don't think I could have endured the pain or come to this point with the sense of peace I have.  It's hard work facing this decision and I applaud your courage in doing so.
BeagleGirl

Pearlsw,
What I'm hearing in your words is that you've tried so hard for years to be empathetic and that at this point, you're at burnout. You've lost the emotional connection to why you originally fell in love with this man, yet you still have the intellectual understanding of what attracted you. You have stitched up the relationship so many times before, but now you've lost the needle and thread and wonder if it's worth looking for replacement mending tools. You wonder if it's even possible to re-fall in love with him, now you know what you know about his behavior.

When my father died, my husband showed no sympathy for my feelings, instead threatened to commit suicide unless I immediately flew home, before even burying my dad. This was one of the issues that finally sealed the deal for me. Like you, I felt that my presence was needed in his life to prop him up, that he would be incapable of managing life without my assistance. And because our financial circumstances were so intertwined and that I had so many responsibilities, I could barely conceive how I would manage without the minimal help he provided.

Some time before I had drawn a line in the sand for myself that if any of the As that Notwendy mentioned were crossed again, that I would be out or that I would admit that I was simply "waiting to die" in this relationship. Well, that moment happened and I chose life. And as I have often mentioned, I've never for a moment regretted my choice. Yes, it was difficult, but I approached each challenge on a step by step basis. And I've never felt so free and in control of my life. That said, I did marry another pwBPD, but this one is BPD-lite. Life can be really good. You don't have to be stuck with a bad decision forever.

   
Cat

This is resonating in my head right now... .a few things I have read over the last year,

*Is your sig-other pw/BPD likely to change their behavoirs, over time, in the context of a "healing fully", answer is no in most cases.

*Is living with, dealing with constantly, and trying to navigate life with your sig-other  pw/BPD detrimental to your long term mental, as well physical health, answer is yes in most cases.

*Is there a limit of endurance, and end to ones mental coping capacities, when you come to the realization that your sig-other  pw/BPD may never change, but may even become worse over time, answer is yes.

*What does it do to ones psychological makeup, when the realization that you have repeated the cycle, over and over and over again with your sig-other pw/BPD, does this sound like any form of acceptable sanity, answer is no.

Its been ten years now for me in this present marriage, the patterns are now as clear as the craters on the moon to me... .although as I have learned to better cope with the behaviors, and as well control my own reactions and feelings, it does not change the fact that they are always going to be there, I do not believe at his point that anything is ever really going to change for good, ie' permanently.

Its like I am carrying a full pack on my back, sometimes I can put it down and rest, but I am always going to have to pick it back up, and carry it.

What does putting the pack down for good look like, what would that actually feel like ?  

Is there something in that pack that I am so dearly hanging onto, what is in there, why am I so devoted to this particular pack?

Is there an end to this trek, .ever ?

How much endurance, or tolerance do I have in me to keep on walking with this pack on my back... .maybe a silly metaphor, but the best I can think of at the moment.

Red5

Exploring the Notion of a Breakup:

Ya’ll are so awesome I can barely keep up with it! :) Thanks for the support!

Um, before I give replies I want to say where I am at at the moment. He is calm now, and that tends to lull me into thinking things are fine and will stay fine. They don’t. (Knocks head against wall to remind self of that.) He cycles around and I am flattened again and again. I am tired of the stress. We made it past one deadline he was freaking out about with the relationship, the last day of January. There is some 5 year legal anniversary that comes up…I want to say in June? So, I feel like we are plummeting towards that legal deadline. I am unsure what it means if we cross it. Legally I know, but emotionally and in terms of a future life. I’d feel a bit locked in if we cross that threshold. Like I’d “owe” it to him to give this more time because of the legal framework around us.

In my mind there are two tracks - the relationship track and my career track. My career has been wrecked and I’d have to go back to my home country and rebuild. I feel torn. I feel like you are “supposed” to give a lot to making a relationship work out, but I know there are limits. The way he acts when he is dysregulating is too much for me. I don’t like not being able to have a calm, stable life. I feel like I deserve that in life - “married” or single. Trying to stay and work on things with him digs a bigger hole for me in life incase this doesn’t work out. If it did “work out” that would be hard enough career wise.

On his side,  if I leave him his life will be financially wrecked, if I leave him after the 5 years he’d be financially ruined. Forever. I’d have to find a way to make the state not force him to support me for so long. He doesn’t deserve that. He’s 9 years older than I am and I don’t want that for him. He has kids, they aren’t nice to me, but still, that’s mostly a result of his meltdowns and lack of proper parenting boundaries…he cares about them so I do as well. That’s part of the deal.

So, do I stay and dig a deeper hole, which will happen, if he does not get some help? Is he about to get some help? Will he follow through? I hate to set conditions, but I can’t do this alone anymore. It is too traumatic and painful and damaging. I can’t see his anger, or watch his tricks, lies, bluffs, or see his mean face…My life has been reduced to the barest of existence and not in a good way. I have borne it so far because of my simple, monk like tendencies. I’m not materialistic and I am happy with simple things. So….it doesn’t take much to make me happy and he can’t meet the basic threshold…This kills me…what if I am giving up right at the moment it could get better? I know there are no guarantees, but…what if it has any kind of chance? What do I owe him in terms of “not quitting”?

I am not afraid of being alone because of lack of companionship. I can make friends and engage in the community. I can set up a routine that prevents me from becoming depressed and hopeless. I can focus on fitness and other interests. I am asking how many chances do I have left to give, but this isn’t about chances really…he is out of control…these are cycles not chances. I still like his beard , but he scares me in a way…his moodiness…I am not at ease with him…we laugh, but there is always that creeping fear of his reactions, his over the top ways. His jealousness if a man even looks or speaks to me in his presence. I can’t stand it.

I feel like I accidentally got myself an extension I didn't entirely want... .I have know idea what he’ll say if I ever suggest a breakup. He’ll surely have a meltdown. I know I would like to be the one guiding and managing the breakup plan. Not to be a control freak, but just to keep things calm and fair and reasonable and minimize the pain.

I truly would have liked to spend my life with him…but this illness and his response to it makes it nearly impossible.  I wanted to work with these issues. I was feeling so much happier, but he can't soothe himself well... .It saddens me greatly, but I know it will also be a relief if we part. I don’t think I can handle seeing him crushed…I don’t know he had to the nerve to do this to me hundreds of times! We’ll see…I know I won’t be able to do this until I feel zero romantic love (I’m getting there thanks to his outrageousness and mistreatment) and harden my heart a bit…sigh.

Jeffree - hey, thanks for popping by! We hadn’t met yet, so nice to meet ya! I like your idea of safeguards. I don’t know about what happens if I file (yet)…I always been in a more reactive posture on this. It is pretty soundproof here, but I can manage this kind of stuff…calling for help if it got that far. Thanks man! :)

BeagleGirl - I wish there was a middle ground option. Maybe just not seeing him everyday would help? But it is impossible for immigration/financial reasons. I feel so much more relaxed, overall, when he is not around. These patterns are entrenched and something must stop. It breaks my heart... but I can’t carry the relationship on my own…I’ve done it for too long.  

CatFamiliar - Thanks so much for sharing this story! Wow. It always amazes me when I hear other people going through identically horrible things! Yikes! He says he did not say “so what?” at a point after my grandpa died, but he did. Even he must have realized that was a step too far. It is so hard to accept that he may simply not be capable of anything near what a healthy relationship is…he is in another universe.  

Red5 - Well so nice of you to come by! It’s like a party here today! :) I hear ya. I feel like I could handle a lot. I could. I have the strength for this…but what I am lacking is a good job and on the ground support system here…but he’s said things lately that make me think he’d be very threatened by that and undermine it…guilt me…He is just living by his most primal instincts and thinks (at times) he can’t change on the jealousy stuff.

Lots of stuff here to keep thinking over ya’ll! Thanks so much for listening and sharing!

I like Beaglegirls statement that we have to decide at what point we are no longer willing to participate in the drama.

If you were to leave Pearls- how would it financially devastate him if you decide you don't want to do that and don't take the money. From what you write - it doesn't sound like either of you have large assets. Divorces often involve arrangements over money, assets like a home, and custody of children. Yes the emotional aspect is difficult but if you have little to dispute materially then that isn't a factor.

If there aren't possessions or children - seems less complicated to just let that aspect go.

Hi Notwendy,

Thanks! We spoke with his lawyer on this specific point. The country we are in protects me quite well... .I can't wrap my mind around it, but it is not considered fair if I don't take his money so even if I leave the country his lawyer insists he is forced to give me certain things and I am forced to take it - by law. He and I talked over ways around this between us... .I could funnel some of the money back to him or something we discussed as an option but that might not work legally either. We don't know. We'll see... .I am not worried today. I imagine I could get a divorce threat this weekend. I always get one sooner or later. I don't know where his head is at. He's been missing me a lot, and is glad I am here... .it is a comfort for him, but that can all change in an instant. He simply cannot stay in this white state.  I am waiting til he gets back to see if he is ready to see a doctor and a therapist... .he was open to this before I left, but he changes like the weather, poor guy.  

He's just burned me out with this month plus of unrelenting drama... .and his lack of support around funeral stuff, focus on his jealousy over me spending time with family has been a bit of a tipping point... .but we'll see how I handle any guilt that he may hit me with... .I am a slow breaker-upper. I like them planned and all options to be exhausted... .but he will live in the world with me in the driver's seat. Ya know?



thanks for checking in, pearl. :)

Pearlsw,

I'm still gaining understanding of your story and who you are.

It seems very important to you that you are "fair" to him financially, yet there is a big impact on your career.  I don't totally understand how a breakup is and 8 on the scale instead of a 4.

And I don't understand this desire to circumnavigate laws.

I'm wondering if you were to go to him and "one more time" talk about staying together and what you need for that to be good.  Then respect his decision.

If he moves towards you and gives you what you need (however he lowers the BPD stuff) then great.

If he chooses not to do that, let him connect the dots.  Sort of like BeagleGirl deciding not to point out messes and ask for them to be cleaned up.

One of my normal advice lines and a thing I try to practice hard in my relationship is to not save my wife from the normal and logical consequences of her actions.

For your guy... .a normal and logical consequence of a relationship ending is that the laws of his country are followed.  Likely not a good thing to "rescue" him from.

Perhaps there is big stuff or nuance I've missed.  Standing by to learn more.

Thoughts?

FF

I think FF makes a good point about natural consequences. Yes, he has a disorder, but he is also capable in many ways. Although your concern about him is understandable he is also capable of hiring a lawyer to look out for his interests and threatening divorce several times- and is aware of the consequences of a divorce in his country.

Divorce is a difficult process that has financial consequences. Still, people choose it when they come to the decision that this is the best route to take even with these consequences. I don't want to lead you in either direction- I understand that you have not decided this and it is a big decision to think about.

A large concern for you seems to be the impact on him. However, a big part of the decision is the impact on you- if you leave and also if you stay and the pros and cons for either decision.

I think we are concerned about the ability of BPD partners to handle discomfort. However, by protecting them or rescuing them from discomfort, we also take their ability to learn to handle it away from them.  

hi,

just my 2 cents.

Couldnt tell if you already broke it off for certain.

i did that last yr w pwBPD, it was supposed to be a healing separation.  It turned out that after 10 months, he started dating others; in nov him and i started couples counseling.
My main point is i never saw my part in our problems; for me, he was making everything awful.
After we stopped living together, a light went on in my head, it wasnt his fault, we both contributed and mostly it was me, i didnt take care of myself, i was always blaming him for x,y,z.  I now see tools, things i can do, attitudes i can adopt, willingness i can have.  Its my choice.  I am not a victim.

thank you, j

Pearls,
    I recognize so much of your thinking in myself, so I'm going to give you a few things about what I've done to protect my H that may help hold a mirror up to those thoughts. 
    I am currently awaiting a legal separation judgement that will award over 65% of our marital assets to my H and assign 100% responsibility for our children's expenses to me (with the exception of food he feeds them when with him).  I came up with this agreement.  I felt it was "what I owed him".  I'll pause here to say that H is 42, able bodied, skilled, educated (I should know, I helped put him through college and paid off his student loans), and very capable of gainful employment. 
    On Thursday, when H followed his declaration that he has done everything that he can do to save our marriage and is willing to divorce with the request that I leave the church that we have attended as a family for 13 years, where I have served as mission's council president, church board secretary, women's ministry leader at various times and am currently a pre-K Sunday school teacher so he would feel more comfortable attending there through and after the divorce my first response was to start figuring out how to tell our children's department leader that I couldn't teach my class anymore, then to ask H if he would be okay with me still teaching my class if I didn't attend the worship service or any of the church activities.
    This morning I was filling the pill containers for one of our older dogs.  I have two 14 day containers, one for my house and one for his (he gets custody of the dogs when he has custody of S14).  One container has most of the day/time labels rubbed off.  I purposely gave him the one that is nicer because he sometimes forgets to give our dog her meds and then loses track of what day he's on.

    All of these are examples of how distorted my view of my responsibility for his wellbeing and comfort is.  The good news is that I've had a year away from the daily FOG (not to mention a very blunt counselor) that is helping me to recognize that distortion sooner and sooner.  The bad news is that I'm still extremely susceptible to acting out of that distorted view.  And, as Notwendy and FormFlier have said here or in other posts, shielding him from the consequences of his actions does not help him.  My counselor goes a step further and has continually told me that stepping away from the messes he makes and refusing to clean them up is an act of love. 
    I don't discount the responsibility you feel for not giving everything you can to make the marriage work.  I hear you saying that part of that responsibility you feel is based in your core values that say that you should do everything within your power to honor vows that you have made.  That seems healthy.  What doesn't seem healthy is the part of you that feels responsible for holding together a marriage that your partner is actively working to destroy because that partner would then suffer the consequences of their actions.  I know that's an oversimplification of your struggle and may not be completely accurate, but it's what I hear through the filter of FOG I've lived my life in.
    Does any of this resonate with you?
BeagleGirl

Beagle Girl- I see so much of myself in your actions too. It's amazing how we over care for a grown adult- makes me wonder how we got ourselves into such a pattern.

The flip side of this is resentment. My H likes to have me fix food for him. There is nothing wrong with him liking a home cooked meal, and I actually like my own cooking and prefer to do it, but it goes beyond that. If he had his way, I would do it all- sit next to him and butter his own toast for him- and he'd like it. I got into a pattern of fixing all his meals in order to not have him rage and get upset, not because I genuinely like doing that.

The other side of this is resentment, and I began to resent fixing his food but did it anyway out of fear. How is it that I had to be concerned that a grown man could not fix a sandwich or heat something up in the microwave? The other effect of over caretaking is lack of passion. Eventually, along with resentment came a lack of attraction or desire. Acting like a "mom" to my H isn't exactly passionate. I think he also began to resent that.

One of the first things our MC said to me was "stop fixing his meals". I was actually scared, as not cooking might lead to a few days of silent treatment or a really bad evening, but with her encouragement, I did stop some of it. I still cook for us several days a week- the family still has to eat and so do I, but if I am busy or the kids had an activity, well we have to do something else. He does not like it, but he has adjusted.  

I was a Stepford wife for so long and that set the expectations in my marriage. I think I brought that into the marriage. I was an emotional care taker to my BPD mother from an early age. I am certain this is part of what attracted my H to me- my need to caretake matched his needs to be caretaken.

FF - fair questions! My h has been divorced previously (He spent of lot of money on this. A lot.) and has three kids.  Providing for them means a lot to him. I am able to work. I just need help transitioning back to my home country if we end things. I don’t want him to lose so much in life as he is closer to retirement age than I am. I would not mind some help, just not more than I need. He breaks up with me all the time/makes divorce threats. He is not easy to talk to about the relationship without a major level of drama. He just lost his job and I had a death in the family…I am hoping for time to “relax” before we revisit whether we want to continue or not. Because of his month long drama I am finally leaning more towards ending it than i am towards repairing it. I like what you say about not trying to save him from consequences. I think I’m doing that less and less. If he wants to file he can. He made a giant, convincing drama about and then quieted down. I do not take it to mean this issue is over…In fact I am expecting more rounds of this before our 5 year anniversary.

Notwendy - Not only does he have a lawyer, he has a high-powered free one who is ethically challenged. I know her.  My big issue at the moment is he has nearly destroyed my love for him with his treatment of me this last month.

juju6860 - Not broken off yet. Could change by the day though! Wow - that sounds amazing what you’ve learned. Can I ask to please put that up in a post and expand on it because I think that would really help a lot of others to have that to focus on! If you like, no pressure!

BeagleGirl - Thanks for this! Just to give a bit of background on me… I have previously never taken anything after similarly long relationships that were not marriages. I dunno. I always liked the guys and didn’t want…stuff/money. I think I missed some kind of learning about this…because it makes me feel tremendously bad to take someone’s money. Don’t worry about me on this one. I’ll make it in life. :) I just read more of your reply and will think that over a bit more…I don’t think I am doing something new for him…I am more so honoring me and how I feel. He’s actually made quite a few financial offers of various sizes. He knows he cannot legally get out of helping me financially. It is rather myself that is proposing a way around it. When he is calm I am happy to offer him help with this…but when he is out of his mind…I’m not gonna negotiate. I can’t. It is too intense.

Notwendy - oh gosh. The details vary a bit, but we’ve got food issues too! His was never taught to cook, refuses to learn and is very helpless…I hear ya... not exactly a turn-on.

Thanks all! I get so much great support I feel inadequate to keep up!

It's obvious that you care about him and his well being.  That's a good thing. 

I'm hoping you will agree that most pwBPD have had some part of their maturing process that hasn't quite completed.

Many times that happened because they were "sheltered" or "enabled" or not otherwise allowed to experience life.

He obviously didn't learn from his first marriage.  Perhaps he was enabled their as well.

Wouldn't it be better to allow him to experience life (the laws of his country) without being saved or shielded.

Otherwise... perhaps it will happen again in his third marriage/divorce.

FF   

Hi FF,

Fair point! Thanks! I am not trying to shield him though actually... .it is about my comfort level. I am not a money-oriented person. I need/want very little in terms of materials possessions.

He swears up and down "he will never marry again!" Who knows. He can't really afford it financially speaking, that I am sure of. Not my concern though. :)

If we do break I am certain he will be one ex, an exception for me, that would be better off being away from me entirely. He will manage just fine without me, impoverished or not. 

Then that can be handled post settlement.

Perhaps give the excess to charity or save it "in name of" a future purpose.

We all know about what "pwBPD say"... .right?

FF

If he doesn't earn or have a lot of money - how could what he pay you be an excessive sum? He can't pay what he doesn't have. If you don't need it there are thousands of worthy causes to help.

I'll admit to not knowing "exactly" what we are talking about.  As in, does the law say you get $20K and you only want $10k? 

I usually get the hair standing up on the back of my neck when I don't know details... .so... perhaps they matter, if you can share... please do.

However, I've got to admit, I'm completely comfortable with the advice of let the laws in place (that he is aware of and experienced before) govern the situation. 

They are there for a reason.

Yes, judges will operate within the limits of those laws, but what I'm hearing doesn't sound like asking a judge to "go easy on him".

FF

Pearls,

I get that you are conflicted, and from your posts here, you seem more concerned about the effect of a possible divorce on your H than on you.

Yet in your posts on the saving board, you are expressing fears about his possibly threatening divorce again and how hard that would be on you emotionally.

Good for focusing on your feelings. If your H were so concerned about the consequences to him of divorce then I don't know why he would frequently threaten it. As discussed in this thread- actions have consequences. One of the issues in your marriage is his threats- that harms a marriage. If his actions lead to the financial consequences for him- then that is the natural consequence.

But enough about him- because your feelings are an important part of your relationship. On the other board, you expressed a genuine fear that he may threaten divorce again. While you may be contemplating it yourself ( and I think that is natural with a troubled relationship- to contemplate the choices to stay or leave at times) you have also expressed fears of it actually happening.

Fear is a common emotion in troubled relationships and can be behind the push -pull pattern.

Pearl,
Found you link by pure serendipity it seems tonight.  I suggest you spend some time empowering yourself by looking at what can be done to gain better traction within the existing relationship, so you can make wiser long reaching decisions rather than jumping one way or the other.  If in doubt don't.  Much of this effort to improve your skills (here) will tell you whether you feel you can develop sufficient means to work with your SO.  Also if there is truly sufficient value in the relationship to warrant the effort.

There is a lot of professionally put together information to be worked through here at this site on the tabs, aside from the full spectrum of colours one will find as people comment and indicate how they are either choosing or chose, how to apply themselves to stay in a difficult relationship or how they are applying themselves to get the strength to truly walk away. 

The latter is as much work (if not far more) as the staying, but it has a sunset clause, which means you don't find yourself having to double down again and again, until you are utterly weary and ready to drop.  For some people it is worth it to stay.  My wife was truly difficult at times... .no lets be frank, much of it was utter hell, but at times, we built a quality of life together that in some ways was most unique and wonderful.  It took huge amounts of work and in truth we never really worked through anything.  My wife was (as one other here explained of his ex) more like a Raccoon on Crack.  Ditto!  That was my wife, which eventually took its final toll on us both.  I was sick of her either a) running off or b) looking for her latest non-drug fix.   

Part of me is really disgusted by this weakness of character, as much as I do my best to understand her BPT for what it really is... .abuse as child, that limits proper psychological development.  Now she has left, her life as the foolish child she too often is, has spiralled downwards rapidly like a plane missing a wing. It is such an utter disaster most of my kids have cut her off like she has the plague.  Very sad as she is actually a very lovely, highly intelligent person, just has very bad runs of BPD always getting in the road of a mature developed emotional life and hence development of proper, meaningful, trusted relationships.

She is hugely talented.  I loved her very much, as I had sacrificed everything to build a life with her. At times she loved me, but I still ask the question, was it love or more obsession.  Consequently, I miss her terribly in my life still.  While I enjoy the peace, I miss the fire terribly and get pretty bored to be honest... .but frankly no I don't want her back.  It is me that needs to move on permanently now, not her. 

I fear I always will, but know that I am now far better off without her... .as are most definitely the kids, which is a really sad fact.  They have healed and now see what a destructive influence she was.  If you are intending on having children that would be something that would give me great pause, if I had the chance for a do over... .on the basis, I was still able to have all the kids I have now.  Interestingly when she left I was happy to see the last of her, but now with distance I certainly miss many things one takes for granted.  She has like many BPD sufferers moved onto her new obsession.  We still have a connection, just not very much.  I often wonder now whether she is just using me to reach out to the kids in order to have them acknowledge her, which they prefer not to.

This time my wife's new internet relationship made good, might work as he is IMO just another con man like her late father, hopefully for her not another adulterer and child beater too, but give him his dues, he seems to have filled a missing piece in her life and brought out some humility in her, that has come from her now substantially less than affluent environment.  Her health has also cycled out of control to now being at grave risk of stroke or heart attack.

She has certainly paid the ultimate sacrifice for him in the loss of both her immediate family (forget me being disappeared) but also geographically have distanced herself almost purposely from all of her children.  I suggest you look at the spectrum here.  22 years you may invest as did I and then something like this... .or perhaps you will beat the odds. 

This is not a win/lose thing at all, on the flip of a coin.  This is more a case of risk mitigation.  If you were investing every last cent you owned and also borrowing heavily also, would you invest in this person.  So if not everything, then how much would you invest and how much would you play safe with and put into something far more secure.  For my wife, as much as I loved her, she was a terrible investment.  Whatever I invested (and trust me it was $100s of thousand of dollars in the last 10 years of marriage) it all was just utterly wasted, not just once but dozens and dozens of times as she could not settle down and apply herself to anything of lasting worth.   The only thing that was consistent, was her constant need for change in her life.  I am so glad I dug my heals in about keeping our home.  We would have nothing now.  Fortunately she was at home with the kids in earlier life, so her ability to earn was not critical, and we lived fairly tight, but later as we became affluent, her inability to be steady was a terrible burden for everyone.  I suggest you look at this side of the BPD and see if this applies at all for you also.   That alone could be a deal breaker where family life is concerned.  If however that is steady, then I would be looking much harder at staying and carefully analyse what other quality foundations can be built.
Regards,
Go

Hi pearlsw,

What a difficult situation to be in! I can understand the feelings you've expressed here. I'm glad you are writing it all out and getting such good advice.


I think this is such a huge point. Something that I've been learning in my own relationships and behavior.

I've realized that "saving" someone from pain is often an attempt to save myself from discomfort and hurt. It makes me so uncomfortable to see someone struggling or suffering. The way I've learned to deal with my own discomfort is to try to stop their suffering, to rescue,  or save them from pain.

I could, instead, focus on myself and my feeling of discomfort and learn what that is about, and save myself.

I would actually be modeling to the other person a way of dealing with his/her own hurt. In other words, it could really help the other person while it's helping me.

heartandwhole  

This is what I've been trying to learn this past year.  My (very astute) counselor watched as I shifted my rescue and protection efforts from dBPDstbxh to S14.  She was patient enough to not jump right in and point it out to me.  She let it dawn on me (with a few little nudges) so I was more ready to accept it.  That was the first step in me understanding just how pervasive and persistent (and destructive) that behavior is in my life and start to unpack what it's rooted in.

I haven't fully unpacked it, but I'm more quickly recognizing the feelings that precede that type of behavior.  I'm not saying that compassion isn't one of them but I'm starting to recognize that, in some cases, I'm more driven by fear and longing than I'd like to admit.   

I think a lot of us share these tendencies. I know I had to work on them with a counselor and co-dependency sponsor. They were my "normal" - the idea I had about being a good person. I was raised to do this, taking on this role with my BPD mother and it made my parents happy.

Finally I was able to see how enabling, caretaking, rescuing behaviors while not extending the same consideration or kindness to ourselves is not being a good person. It is taking away the person's own learning experiences- interfering with the the natural consequences that could teach them, and then they may learn to be more capable on their own. It is also not being kind to ourselves to disregard our own feelings and needs.

It also took some time to discern between enabling, caretaking and being charitable. When to help and when not to. It takes practice. It is hard to watch someone learn from their actions. My elderly widowed BPD mother is finally learning that if she spends all the money from a months check at one time, there isn't any left for the rest of the month. She didn't experience this when my father met all her needs financially. We did without to balance her wishes. It isn't comfortable watching her do this- I know she isn't starving, he left her with enough for that not to happen, but I now hear her say things like " I wanted to do this, but it was too expensive" and think about expenses.

With my H it is harder. He is competent. There is something that drives this emotionally and I find myself falling for it without thinking about it. It starts with a simple question- how do I, or what do I need to do this? and the next thing I know I am doing it.  The other day he said " how can I order a pizza" and the next thing I know I am sitting at the computer ordering a pizza for him. Asking him what toppings he wants while I do it. He can order his own pizza! But why he asks me and why I seem to be on autopilot to do it, I just don't know. If I wanted a pizza, I would just do it.

If we stop the caretaking, we face the "opinion" of others. When I cut back on caretaking my mother, the result was that my parents accused me of being a terrible person. In their minds, I really was being a terrible daughter. It is hard thinking our loved ones think we are terrible. I think we have to be secure in our own beliefs that we are not terrible when we don't caretake. As to the pizza, if I caught myself before I did it and said " you can call the pizza shop" the response might be " if you loved me you'd do it". Why is that love?  It doesn't make sense to me. If he was busy, sure, but he actually sat right next to me telling me what to order.

Nicely said, Notwendy.  Took me a long time to grasp that care-taking was my way to avoid caring for myself.  On the surface, it seems noble to help another, but the reality is that it fosters dependency and creates an unhealthy dynamic for both parties.  In the process, I failed to treat myself with love and acceptance, which undermined my self-confidence and self-esteem.  No more.  Self-love and accepting my flaws as part of being human are cornerstones for my recovery.

LuckyJim

I struggled with this a lot until I got an overview of how much I was being manipulated. I'm "wonderful" if I do the bidding of a pwBPD yet in an instant I'm "totally selfish and self-centered" if I expect them to take care of their own needs.

I had to get to a place of "F* it! If they want that (fill in the blank) they can figure out how to get it themselves. They're an adult. They're not stupid."

In doing that, I had to harden myself against the inevitable accusations of selfishness, not caring, whatever. Sometimes I would say, "Yeah, you're probably right." Then there was no juice left in their argument.

It was a difficult habit to break--feeling "on duty" and deriving a sense of self worth through pleasing another person. I had learned this pattern young, starting with my mother and continuing through two marriages to pwBPD. What finally got through to me was the lack of reciprocity. And I realized that I would never dangle approval of someone by whether or not they were doing my bidding.

Cat- I think your statement- lack of reciprocity- really says it. It something I have discussed with my H. We don't do nice things for people with an expectation of something in return, but what I have noticed with long term friendship is this reciprocity.

If I needed to do something in the afternoon, I could call a friend to carpool with me and pick up my kids. If a friend needed me to do this - she'd call me and I'd do it. Sometimes one of us would take the kids for ice cream after school and just pay for it. We didn't keep track of who did what. It all just kind of balanced out. Sometimes we'd do things for others that didn't balance out- but it was all in good Karma- a group of moms joined together with the common goal of doing what was best for the kids.

In my own home there is also teamwork, but it is more like two people doing their own thing for the benefit of the family. It wasn't a bad thing but it lacked reciprocity.  My H's job is our main support- and that's big. I am grateful. Yet, if I asked him to drive a child somewhere, or help with the dishes, I'd more likely get a defiant lecture about how that was my job and his job was his job and it wasn't fair for me to ask him to do my job since I didn't do his job. Honestly, it was easier to just do them myself and I do. But with lack of this kind of reciprocity comes a form of emotional distance.

With my BPD mother it is all about me serving her. I felt like Cinderella growing up and wished to be more than Cinderella with benefits in a marriage. But for that to happen, I have to change that role for myself.

I have certainly learned a lot over the past thirteen months.

Caretaking I have learned may have indeed have a lot in common with “rescuing”.

However, sometimes I think to myself, and then say aloud;… “better to let natural selection take place”.

Life is chocked full of tough choices, caretaking, saving, rescuing… and enabling ?

A mine field !

Red5

Hi all,

So many are seeing this issue so I don't want to put on blinders or miss something. I can say I carve this up a bit differently. I don't try to endlessly save him from the consequences of his stuff. For example, he is finally dealing with some consequences via his kids. They, I gather, are less and less inclined to visit him now as he does not do a good job controlling himself during their visits. He takes this out on me at times, but now they are delivering consequences with teeth in them. I am grateful. There will be no kid's visit in March. He had to give up a big issue with his ex over this. He's not having to pay for it, thankfully, but his kids are taking a visit with his ex into a non-Schengen covered area. There is only one kid left young enough to kidnap as she did previously, but he has given up fighting that battle with her.

I asked many times for changes on these issues, but could not get them. Them not coming and impacting an already difficult situation for me/him/us makes my life a bit easier.

He's been battling her in court for the last 8 years. We've only been together 7. It has been a giant shadow over us and one factor in nearly destroying us, and one reason I have given him/this so many extra chances. I did not protect him from his mistakes. My role for many years, that I chose, was to support him. It was simply off the scales though for that period of time, level of seriousness and expense both financially and personally.

The reason I, and even his ex lately to the shock of my "h" and I, are trying to work with him on financial issues is because this is too much for him to carry alone. The poor guy supports a small village of us. His choice, but we ought to help. I'd rather not go on in life than to see him or anyone financially ruined. If that makes me a heel so be it. It makes me cry to see him suffer despite all he's done (intentionally and unintentionally) to ruin my life to the extent he can/has. I have options. I can, I might not, but I can at least try to overcome all this. I don't try to "save" him from all consequences. I have historically tried to stop him from divorcing me when I don't think that is what he truly wants - all I have saved is the option for us to be together. Perhaps I did this one too many times, but thankfully he is not taking me up on any of the last offers I made because a few were too generous.

I am perhaps foolish in thinking I could guide a breakup via how I have done it in the past with non boyfriends. I have done it fairly well twice already in life. I had no doubts, til I met his illness, that I could do it again. And when/if it happens I'd still like to guide it, but I am sure he would have even more surprises in store for me... .He will not let me go easily I think... .the road is long on this... .

His illness is a total mind*&^!. I don't know how to deal with it instinctually. It defies logic and reason. It makes me afraid in ways I cannot even describe. It is confusing beyond all I've seen. I hope more researchers take this stuff on because it is an incredible aspect of the human experience that I think most folks can't even fathom is going on in the lives of so many of us.

Who says you "ought to"?

Who chose to support a small village?

Who "wants" this change?

Who determined it was "too much"?

What happens if you don't work with him?  Practically speaking, what does this look like?  (at this point it's all be theoretical... .I do feel a bit odd without financial context)

FF

I get that some of you aren’t okay with it based on your life experiences, that’s cool, but I am based on mine. He has a court case going with his ex right now, to be decided on V-day, as to whether or not he owes her about $64,000. She does not want the money either, much to my shock. She got something else in exchange for this. Her being able to travel with his three kids whom she previously kidnapped. He’d owe me a giant chunk too if we divorce this year. I am glad she does not want to make him destitute any more than I do. I don’t want him killing himself over financial woes either. Not worth it on any level.

It's funny. As much as we can list on the "they love me not" side of the ledger, and I'm talking horrible abuses in many cases here and people who have even cast us asunder in lousy ways, there is still a human element that warrants our best discretion when we are faced with certain limitations of the BPD in our life. That's not to say THE best discretion can even be implemented, but the best discretion WE can use at any given time is usually what we are capable of.

Yeah, you might look back all along the way, and think, "Man, that was stupid of me to think, say, do, etc." But the reality is that you can only do what you can do.

J

Hey... can you put this in context.

He pays out 64k and has 2k remaining... .I got it.  Destitute.

He pays out 64k and has 200k remaining... umm, right... .I'm going to stand by my advice.

What specifically in your life experience leads you to believe people should not abide by the laws?

There are exceptions, I get that, hence courts and appeal processes.  If that is the case, what specifically is it about him that exempts him (in your judgement) from the laws governing this potential matter.  If forced to argue it in court what would your argument be? (for the sake of organizing your thoughts)

FF

Yes, very perplexing, .like chasing a leak in the plumbing, or else an electrical fault in a system... .just when you get all the water works, and the Christmas lights working again as they should "pop", .another leak appears, and another lamp goes out somewhere... .

Another silly Red5 analogy is keeping an old classic car running... .when you get one thing fixed up, and operating as it should, then something else breaks down... .never stops, a constant "maintenance process"... .

Learn something new everyday... .but in my own experience, these tools we learn about and use, are indeed "shelf life'ed", and a perishable commodity so to speak... .as it does seem the our sig other pw/BPD will develop a "work around procedure" so to speak to our implemented communication tools... .like when a virus becomes immune to treatment.

I have heard it described also as "moving the goal post", .or changing the rules mid-game... .

This is constantly ongoing paradigm, and is mentally, and as well physically (health wise) exhausting.

Red5  

I get that some of you aren’t okay with it based on your life experiences, that’s cool, but I am based on mine.


Pearl, it is actually the opposite. My place of comfort it to not see someone I care about in the situation like your H is. I feel most comfortable when I am being supportive and helpful and it would make me cringe to be in a situation where the law resulted in someone being financially strained. I understand the feeling to want to be kind as much as possible.

It took a whole lot of personal work to reframe my idea of being kind and supportive and be able to discern what is actually being kind and when being kind is actually not acting in the person's best interest. If we also look at ourselves, we can ask - are we being kind in order to manage our own uncomfortable feelings when we see someone learning from the consequences.

I am not suggesting that we are not ever kind or intervening. Surely do not let someone drive drunk, or wander into a dangerous situation. But for example if someone doesn't pay their bills, or rent, and we pay them for them, they don't learn to manage money. We may do this for someone who has unexpected circumstances, but if it happens again- when we see repetitive behavior- we may see that helping isn't really helping.

I am not comfortable with not helping, with not being my version of kind. It makes me cringe. I don't like feeling like the bad guy but there are times when I have to do if I don't want to be enabling. The person I care about is not often happy about that, or happy with me. However, once I could see that in some situations, rescuing is not helping, then it is up to me to manage those bad feelings for the sake of the emotional growth of that person.

This is the crux of where my questions come from.

Is this an expected outcome?

Is this repetitive?

Which leads to the final issue of enabling no growth versus allowing growth due to experiencing life.

FF

Hi FF,

If we don’t run out of road here I am happy to satisfy your curiosity on these financial issues. I hear that this is of interest/concern to you and you mean to offer support by getting into the weeds on this. It is not an issue I was seeking advice on however.

If I can gently and humbly redirect to my original point here…I saved my relationship, but then wasn’t sure how I felt about that. Now I am seeing for myself that what I’ve also been trying to “save” is the breakup itself. I know how to do breakups with nons, I do not know how to do this kind. I don’t know how to have the kinds of discussions I need to get us to that point if I choose to take it in that direction.  I wasn’t even willing to concede defeat on making this relationship work until the last few weeks.

Hi Notwendy,

What I feel is happening on a divorce, if it happens, is not about rescuing. It is about balancing. I want to balance the needs of all the parties involved. The state will do what the state does. I can go along or not go along with that based on my views of that.

I hear that you are seeing other issues and this makes you personally reflective. That’s fine. A lot of posts raise issues that make me reflective too and rethink my own stuff.

Hi Go,

Thanks for sharing your thought process with me…this gives me another model to consider and I appreciate that!

To all as this post hits its 6 page limit:

Where I am at is considering if I want to go forward in this relationship or not. If I do I want to understand for myself why and if not I want to be clear about why. That is where I am at and what my needs are.

If posts inspire new ideas or themes I strongly urge all readers to create more original posts so we can chew on those topics collectively - I am sure they will help a a lot of people and that is the overall goal here.

The kind of space I am trying to carve out here in my posts, because I don’t have it in regular life, is to think out what matters to me and where I want my life to head.

*mod*

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