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Non-constructive behaviors:

Escalating fights with fire or emotionally lashing out in anger    
Engaging in physical violence out of frustration and/or anger
Snooping through phones, computers, purses, wallets, cars, social media account(s), etc.    
Repeatedly defending my actions (Justifying, Arguing, Defending, Explaining or JADE)    -
Invalidating feelings with words, expressions or body language    
Withdrawing, giving the silent treatment, or threatening to break up    
Using manipulative tactics to get needs or wants met    
Using drugs or alcohol to cope    
Dating other people and/or having an emotional affair
Blaming the problems in the relationship on him or her    
Begging or pleading to get back together    

I've given this a bit if thought, in my experience there is a time and a place for all of the apparent contrary behaviors listed above when dealing with BPD.

Never say never, there use might be rare or even never arise for you, but do not discard them out of hand as not being useful in any circumstances. ( with the possible exception of self medicating ( drugs and alcohol ) unless it becomes the lesser of two evils ? (suicide)

Your primary focus should be not to become dysregulated yourself, a sure recipe for disaster- stay in control ( especially if you decide to show your anger )and be aware of all the tools at your disposal and what the ultimate goal  it is  you wish to achieve.

one simple exmple-

I said i would break up with my ex ( the only time ) if she ever used heroin again, it worked for a while but unfortunately i didn't follow through at the very end.

To sum up, sometimes you are only left with bad choices ( especially when dealing with BPD)

The important thing is to put yourself in a position to sensibly decide between your options,

particularly when they are all bad.

Can you take some of the items on the list and speak to how and when use them

Hi SlyQQ,

For me this list reads as an embarrassing review of how low I have sunken in this relationship at times! (I haven't done them all!)

Non-constructive behaviors:

Escalating fights with fire or emotionally lashing out in anger   
Engaging in physical violence out of frustration and/or anger
Snooping through phones, computers, purses, wallets, cars, social media account(s), etc.   
Repeatedly defending my actions (Justifying, Arguing, Defending, Explaining or JADE)    -
Invalidating feelings with words, expressions or body language   
Withdrawing, giving the silent treatment, or threatening to break up   
Using manipulative tactics to get needs or wants met   
Using drugs or alcohol to cope   
Dating other people and/or having an emotional affair
Blaming the problems in the relationship on him or her   
Begging or pleading to get back together 

How did it make you feel to try these things? How did it work out?

take care, pearl.

It is a long list but I will start with my original example.

My Ex had been admitted to hospital, she told me she was fragile, but told them she was suicidal'

to ensure she would be admitted.

As an aside I place a fair share of the "blame " for what happened is on the psychiatrist in charge,

but blame is ultimately irrelevant.

It left me caring for six children from 8 months to 12 for half the time and four the rest.

She was placed on several drugs ( epelum and abilify from memory on top of the rivotil and xanex she was taking)

Things seemed to be going well, i visited every day.

One day i turned up with our eight month old to visit, she received a phone call and strangely sent me away to get some shoping ( with our son)

When i returned, she had overdosed, died, and the only reason she survived is the unit was next to the hospital, and they revived her with the crash cart and naltexone. ( the psych had alowed a hot user, with free access to be admitted ( two doors up from x) to the unit, needless to say she scored , sold some to my ex, and tanked on drugs alreaady, my x , who had not used for several years, od'd the psych was an a grade idiot)

Faced with looking after six children, the pain and damage it would cause them, and me, I used everything at my disposal to try and ensure it would never happen again.

I

a) showed my anger, I refused to give any sympathy or attention which might have "rewarded the behaviour" ( even in light of the full circumstanes some may have been deserved but it would not help achieve my goal)

b) Withdrew emotional support , for a time ( to reinforce this posistion )

c) threatened to leave if she ever used again,

these were all the biggest guns in my arsenal, and i used them all, i was not interested in the niceties or right or wrong,
just to make try and ensure it never happened again.

i will post some other examples later hope this helps someone.


In retrospect I think i did the right thing.

Sly,
I tried the same arsenal when my uBPDh started using meth again. None of them worked, and I should have known that seeing as how I am a recovering addict myself. The disorder of addiction is extremely deceptive. The book of Alcoholics Anonymous states that "at times the alcoholic (addict) has no mental defense against the first drink." I have found that to be true, both in dealing with my own disorder and that of my h. However, I became so desperate to make him stop using I resorted to everything I could pull out of my dysfunctional hat. I threatened to leave. I cried. I shamed and blamed. I withdrew emotionally. I threatened to drag him to the hospital and tell them he was using (empty threat, I could not have made him go. Ironically, his legs swelled up for three days and then I was blamed for NOT taking him to the hospital even though he refused to go). Sometimes, actually almost ALL the time, NOTHING works to make an addict not use again. I knew that. But I tried anyway (and failed.)

I Am Redeemed

I was a little naieve , but it held the line for three more years though, sigh, at the time I left little room for doubt, and it worked, but time erodes things, if it had happened sooner i would have followed through.

All right snooping this 100% antithetical to me and i have never done it but,

I did acidentally come across a secret acount my P had been putting funds in,

it did not concern me overly other than she didn't tell me and the obvious implacations

I did not look further and know when we seperated the account was not included in joint assets

again i left it be because it was something i was uncomfortable using,

however People with BPD have poor impulse control, if I believed her actions

would have put the finacial security of the family in jeapordy I would have snooped and regard it as irresponsible if

you do not take adequate precautions to protect the saftey of your family, It is likely you as the "responsible"

partner will have to assume this mantle weather you like it or not, be aware and alert your partner can not be relied

upon to be held accountable for their actions

p.s. There was 50 k in accumulated credit cards i discovered per force again after the separation,

People with BPD by definition are not responsible adults treat them so at your peril.

SlyQQ let me suggest that it might be a challenge to identify a situation where the above behavior from your list would be justified or effective.

It sounds from your example like you feel that in some situations ultimatums can have their place.  Many members might agree with you.  That was a long list.  Are there any other behaviors that, while generally not helpful, might in some cases be called for?

WW

Violence due to frustration

Everyone has a breaking point, to bottle up your frustration or anger may result in eventually murdering someone,

it is an often cited legal defence,

If you are faced with a situation that you find inescapable a small firework display may avoid a major eruption later

it will also serve as fair warning that should be given, rather than going straight to ballistic and a no holds bar all in free for all. remember not everyone has ironclad control of their emotions

obviously before this happens it would be best to get out of the relationship altogether, but some things are not so simple.

again it is the lesser of two evils and best avoided altogether if at all possible.

It may also be the catalyst to escape from a toxic relationship that would otherwise result in long drawn out trauma, and ultimately cauterize and reduce the overall damage, - the lesser of two evils

In summary some people may have found themselves the victim of years of mental ( by far the worse ) and physical abuse, they have been conditioned to believe they deserve or even are the reason for such, and have repressed there own legitimate feelings of anger, and frustration.


Over time it will not only severely affect there health ( both mental and physical) but may result in an explosive and

extremely dangerous situation,

there is a time to speak out , express your anger ,

hopefully by stopping an eternal war of repression it  may help you break free and GET OUT!

Have you done all the things on the list?

Of course not some of the examples refer to specific situations a person may find themselves in,

being forced to have sex and coming to the epiphany, you stand up for yourself now and use your anger to  fight them off and permenently remove yourself from the situation or risk major psychological damage from the ongoing abuse and perhaps lodging an ice pick in their brain when they fall asleep afterwards.

Using anger to overcome the fear of doing the right thing is something i have never faced


But as i pointed out the goals you are trying to achieve are of foremost importance, achieving the best  possible outcomes, means, utilizing all the tools you have available and recognizing when they will be effective that is what is important

You realize that this is a list of dysfunctional coping... .that these things don't solve problems, they make them worse. That's what the workshop was about.

Some of the most destructive are:

Engaging in physical violence out of frustration and/or anger
Using drugs or alcohol to cope   
Dating other people and/or having an emotional affair

These are considered emotional abuse:

Escalating fights with fire or emotionally lashing out in anger
Using manipulative tactics to get needs or wants met 
Withdrawing, giving the silent treatment, or threatening to break up   

You are right, though. They work in some ways. Punching your girlfriend out will get respect/fear. Cheating will sooth hurt feelings. When people with mental illnesses do this, they often say that the  ends justify the means. You seem to agree with that.

How would you feel if your partner uses  these tactics because her end are justify the means. Ever been there?

I don't think you read my posts skip i am not saying these things are good but sometimes necessary,

and yes time and again, the damage it has done to me and my family is immense and i did Everything I could to ameiloriate it
and minimize it. the greater good is not the ends justiyfying the means it is balancing outcomes.

if you want to talk the pros and cons of hiroshima which murdered untold thousands of innocent civillians

you can, everyone, has there own conscious too answer

When you look into the abyss the abyss looks into you,

I have been at the brink and stepped back , have you?

Hi SlyQQ,

You are saying that sometimes those normally dysfunctional approaches might be justified.  We can all learn from each other, so I'm open to learning here.  It's sometimes most effective to teach when we ground things in our personal experience.  Can you give an example from your experience of when you felt it was effective to use one of those techniques?

WW

Jade, this can actually be used as a beneficial techniques ( re snooping i also remeber, that again per chance  i discovered my ex had put a hole in her diaphragm, you don't have to snoop about things like this though, make sure you always use condoms and personally flush them down the toilet ) but back to the subject at hand 

Sometimes someone with BPD craves emotional release that might be accomplished by self harm or other destructive behaviors, engaging them in a pointless argument and eventually letting them win, can help a lot in this area, it gives them a focus for their aggression, and a satisfactory resolution that can help there self esteem, and general well being

becoming a whipping boy is not much fun but can be useful however remember to choose the fights carefully,  in fact i remember a recent post, about, when someone starting to employ jade, found there partner withdrew and felt they were no longer emotionally engaged with them.

OK, JADE (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0) as a distraction to prevent self harm.  Can you give a particular example of when a pointless argument worked for you?

This would be one negative outcome of JADE (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0).  Another is that it can add fuel to the fire (which was most often the case in my relationship).

WW

The trick is you pick an argument you are eventually happy to lose, this results not only is in an outlet for there frustration, but a means of validation.

Most people have entered an argument where the effort seems more than it is worth an acquiesce,

doing this with forethought re BPD can be very useful,

P comes in and aggressively asks if you have fed the cats, (( perhaps an old bugbear) it is obvious where this is going and a simple no,

even if true, will only lead to another , avenue of attack, sometimes you can even say no until you find an area you are happy to argue over, this requires a deal of finesse though)

hence, I think so ( this is an easy in )

your partner vents you are hopeless you always forget etc etc

you make some protestations, eventually say sorry i will do it now ( again)

you may end up with some fat cats but may have avoided some nasty outcomes

It is a version of distraction by surprise an extremely useful tool to avoid a mounting dysregulation.

(you need to be  are aware of when you are being gaslighted though )

Yeah, but the only problem is that my cat has BPD too, and if I say I think I fed him when I didn't, he feels invalidated and dysregulates.  Have you ever seen a cat dysregulate?  It ain't pretty!  :)

WW

SlyQQ, your example isn't picking an argument... .is it? It isn't "
Escalating fights with fire or emotionally lashing out in anger " or "Engaging in physical violence out of frustration and/or anger". It's not JADE, either.

If you're partner comes in loaded for a fight and you defuse it by validating the invalid (you didn't feed the cats, you are irresponsible with the animals, etc.), you validate the invalid and set yourself up to hear about it again.

Yes, if you start defending yourself (JADE), you likely escalate the fight.

So is there a way to not JADE (not escalate the fight) and not validate that you are irresponsible with the cats?

Skip! often you know a fight is coming, as i pointed out in the example, picking the battlefield will give you a tactical advantage and if it can even be about the same thing again and again, it actually gives the players a feel for the boundaries.

You do defend yourself, justify and explain  you may say the cats didn't look hungry or they would have bothered you or any number of things  etc the important thing is to allow your partner to vent and to know when to back off and eventually at the right moment capitulate.

Some people like arguing, about anything, it can be quite therapeutic. It is in the above list at about six!

Which i said it was about at the start when Wentworth asked, and i said this was a more beneficial area?

Repeatedly defending my actions (Justifying, Arguing, Defending, Explaining or JADE)

I hope this clarifies it for you.

I guess you are asking how to communicate your disapproval without repercussions, guess what

If you want to set a boundary on drinking to much, easy

or spending to much likewise,

two things at once not so easy,

especially when they are drunk,

first piece of advice wait until there sober.

if you are wondering what to do when things have started to go of the rails

a joke or distraction often works  especially if they are anebriated eg.  , would you like an icecream

---

Topic deserves its own thread. Split from https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=319838.0

p.s. if all else fails you can try and steer the argument to one you are happy to lose, run it till she loses momentum   then fold and leave it at that

removing yourself ( or as they see it running away) is a savage blow to deal them (possibly the worst ) , it hits all there abandonment buttons, so avoid it if you can.

it should read

i hate you , DON"T LEAVE ME!

polish up your emotional Armour regularly

p.p.s

under distractions a compliment

like how beautiful she looks works to , plus it might help defuse the abandoment trigger if its been pulled.

I can think of a couple of concerns about this approach.  If we have empathy for our pwBPD, we may not find it respectful to intentionally expend their energy on a fruitless argument.  It does not seem likely to build trust.  Another concern is that banking on our pwBPD running out of momentum can be a losing game.  Mine can go for hours.  I find that carefully conserving energy and working on boundaries has had better payback.

WW

It is an if all else fails, if you are resigned to having abuse heaped on you for an extended period, trying to steer where the abuse is aimed  i find helps.

it may also offer you a chance to exit the argument with some luck , by far the worst thing you can do to damage trust is to go away or leave,  almost anything else is better,

 they are good at finding your weak spots though so presenting your weaknesses as strength and your strengths as weakness is useful  it helps to get you  through the worst fights

I've found that the boundary technique that best limits my exposure to abuse and requires the least amount of energy is to leave, but say I need a break and I'll be back in 10 minutes, or 20 minutes.

WW

In my expierience there is only one thing someone with BPD really cares about, that is if you will leave them,

 

the closer you are to them the greater the fear,

even extracting yourself for a short period and saying you will be back , they won't believe at there core,
 if you are really close a raised eyebrow can swap wine and roses into ww3

you do what you have to , but leaving is the worst.

Some extra care is called for when we generalize our experience and apply it to others.  How many hours of abuse would you listen to before you would decide to leave?

If we engage a pwBPD in arguments, and stick around when they are abusing us, might we be depriving them of a chance to learn about the natural consequences of their actions?  Might they perceive the drama of the argument as a reward -- we are investing our attention in them, after all -- a reward that provides more motivation for aggressive verbal behavior in the future?

WW

I said in my experience, and what you end up doing, ultimately it is your decision,

it is certainly a very effective way to bring them in line.  

managing the push pull dynamic of BPD is what it is all about.

I absolutely agree with this WW. If you just try to wait them out, then you are doing yourself a disservice by continuing to listen to it. You get to place yourself in a situation where you continually hear the negative, mean things she says to you. By using boundaries, you reaffirm what your values are and regardless of what she says, or does, or behaves, you are in control of your own emotions, behavior, reactions, etc.

As an example, my H used to rant for hours at a time at me and I just sat there and took it. I would try to justify myself, cry, and eventually apologize and agree to everything he ever accused me of. When I began to look at my own weak boundaries, I realized that I would not allow any other person except my H to yell at me and rant at me that way. I would get up and walk away. I saw that I needed to hold myself to the same standard with my H that I would with a stranger.

So with all my resolve the next time he began to yell at me, I mustered up all my courage and said "I don't like to be yelled at. I'm going for a walk." And I walked right out the door. Came back 30 minutes later and I still heard my H yelling inside at no one. This reinforced my understanding that I cannot control his behavior, only my own, and I remained outside for another 15 min. After he saw I was outside, he came out, calmed down and we had a conversation. He told me he was upset that I walked out and I told him that I wasn't going to let myself be yelled at like that anymore.

He tried it one more time, and I responded exactly the same. He doesn't yell at me now. He knows that if he yells then he loses my audience. He knows that he is left alone in the house by himself with no one to witness his tantrum. And what's really neat, is that now when he starts to feel himself getting frustrated and angry with me, HE is the one who goes to take a walk to calm down because he wants me to hear him. He knows now that he has to get himself under control so we can have a conversation. HIs behavior change was not the goal of my boundary. It was to remove myself from being yelled at. HIs behavior change was just a natural consequence of me not letting him treat me badly.

Darn, TH, I wish I could have learned from your example 15 years ago!

WW

Withdrawing,              giving the silent treatment, or threatening to break up   


Its on the list, and it is a biggy ( especially for someone with BPD who will construe even small actions  as break up threats ) but i do understand it needs to be done sometimes

 

An abusive relationship is one partner lives in fear of the actions of the other and what they may do.


The sad truth is ANY close romantic relationship with someone with BPD is an abusive relationship,

if you are going to make it work you have to reconcile this fact, the dysfunctional behaviors you choose to engage in to keep it under control are ultimately irrelevant, being in a relationship with someone with BPD is dysfunctional, if you find out in time remove yourself, else you have to decide how you will use the fear your partner regards you with and try and minimize the damage to yourself