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Hi all, I am preparing an action plan in the event that my uBPDw does not seek help or treatment and am starting this thread to seek everyone's feedback and experience. I hope this thread can also help those in the process of planning for a change.

Long story short, I just got back to work from a one week national holiday. It only took three straight days at home for me to have a near breakdown. This shows me that being at work most of the day has become my only means of staying sane and that I otherwise cannot endure this relationship much longer.

It wasn't a big thing this time but a few small things that had me sobbing close to hysterically in front of my two little kids hidden in a public restroom. The first was when I was going out to buy a special dessert my wife wanted. I stopped at the door to ask her to look for a file that she'd sent me but I didn't receive, to which she responded "You're so annoying, get lost!" (in her native language this actually comes out a lot harsher and made me feel like a misbehaving dog). I debated whether I should maintain my pride and not get the dessert for her, but I got it to keep peace during the holiday. The next day it was her criticizing me for a host of small things one after another, at which I finally snapped at her and she walked off, leaving me with the kids.

The point is that even these small things could bring me to the breaking point. I have worked on myself, practiced radical acceptance, am in therapy, but its not enough. I know I need her to change or I needed a separation to save myself and therefore be a strong dad to my children.

But the kids are not yet in school. My wife has not gone back to work yet and the family is financially dependent on me (challenge 1). I have spent the majority of my personal savings getting the family through (challenge 2) so not a lot of extra cash on hand. She still has plenty of savings.

I think when (if) she goes back to work and we have two income streams again would be a much better time to propose a break. I can suggest she move out and I take kids or I move out and she keep the kids. I would offer her a road back of treatment at our nearby hospital, which has an excellent BPD treatment program. There are many complications to this that I will bring up later.   

I know that the current situation is the result of thousands of decisions on both our parts and I'm not denying responsibility. And I do love her. I think by showing her that she needs to change if she wants to stay with me is taking a responsible action. By staying and staying and not doing anything I am showing her its OK to do these things and treat me this way. Why should she want to go to therapy if I'm still there at the end of the day? 

I would love to hear everyone's suggestions both on the logistical side and the emotional side of how to handle this proposed separation when the time is right. Or, if there is an alternative to separation I haven't considered, something that gives her a consequence forcing her to confront her behavior.

Thanks everyone!

~ROE       

Hi ROE,

I'm in this space at the moment too, with barely a plan... .My "h" is trying to get some help, but it is excruciatingly slow going and I am watching to see when/if he'll toss the idea again if he gets into a "black phase"... .I know one is coming any day now. He can barely get through a week.

He is just barely holding on to life. It is really depression that is becoming more of the issue lately. He needs support. He needs major help. I am afraid he is only seeking, or mostly seeking, the help because of me. I didn't push it on him, I encouraged, but did not insist. I sometimes wonder if I should have guided this in a stronger fashion. His doctor doesn't seem to think so. He sort of flippantly tossed off the idea the other day that it is all up to my "h". Maybe he's right. I don't know anymore. I just hate to see him suffer and I hate to get all the "friendly fire" from his illnesses.

I can relate to having felt better when I had time away from him.

It's hard not to think things could be better if only a few factors would fall into line... .

The most important thing is for you to hold it together - yourself I mean. That is the part you have the most control over and it is vital that you have the support you need to make it and only then be able to help others.

I'll be watching this post carefully... .

warmly, pearl.

Hi pearl, I was just in the process of replying to your tracking your feelings post when I saw this but I may as well connect with you here.

I have been following your story ever since I came to this board and it sounds like its been getting harder and harder for you. I'm so sorry things aren't taking a better direction. Do not blame yourself for anything in terms of guiding him. I'm sure you did your best and his life is his responsibility. He was suffering long before he met you I'm sure and unless he decides to do something he will continue to suffer. There is nothing we can do until they propose responsible actions to improve their lives that we can support. We can't save them, and the more we try the more we lose ourselves and become incapable of helping anyone. 

My wife is in a "black phase" recently, too, though I'm starting to wonder if black phase is the norm with just short interims of positivity. I have to remind myself she would get like this even when our life was at its best and easiest.

She is calling on me to move us or let her move out on her own because of the noisy upstairs neighbors (we can't afford it, she's not working yet). She's demanding I take a 3 month leave from work (I could lose my job, or at least my standing) to let her focus on getting a job while I watch the kids and we can live off her savings instead of sending them to preschool and I keep working. I'm still slightly foggy enough that I consider both, but it's just not feasible. She's drinking almost nonstop and passing out in front of the kids. Today when I refused to take the leave she did the usual phone attacks and threats that I will regret it and I'll "find out tomorrow". She will probably try to leave me with the kids again so I can't work. I'll have to hide my shoes and phone and personal belongings. Boy I don't want to go home but only a half hour left.

Let's look at that word "help". She thinks I don't want to help because I'm not willing to help in the way she wants. I have done a ton of things to help her get a job, including taking a year off from work after our second was born that cost me almost my entire savings and my job.   

Like you said I need to hold it together, but it's really hard when I have to face this treatment and two screaming kids on my own. But I've done it before so I suppose I'll get through. 

All the best,
ROE

Hi ROE,

I'm so sorry that your holidays had such difficult moments. That is really difficult to get through. I've been there—in a bathroom, crying—caused by the fallout of my relationship. I felt like I was crumbling and it felt terrible. 


Can you put this front and center with regard to her getting help? Have you addressed this together before, and if so, what is her response to dealing with the problem?

heart

ROE,

Hey!  I don't think I've been in your threads before.

I've picked up a "vibe" from you post that you are assuming or giving your wife credit for thinking things through... .for "intellectualizing" her decisions.  Likely this is because that is the way you process things (also a vibe I picked up as you sorted through potential decisions in the future.

such as... .if my wife gets a job, then two finance streams... .then perhaps time for a break while she gets treatment in an excellent hospital. 

That's solid thinking on your part... .

But... .(there is always a but... )

I'll be you an enormous amount of money, that your wife' doesn't approach problem solving/planning in this way.  Especially in a "black" phase. 

Have you done much reading on "emotional decision making" or "reacting to emotions"?

That's likely something you should understand much... .much better.

Thoughts so far?

FF

Hey Roland, Hats off to you for taking steps to form an action plan.  The timing of any potential separation from your uBPDw, I understand, is tricky because you have young kids in the picture.  I was once in your shoes and, out of concern for our kids and my own inertia, reached a point where I was stuck, unable to move forwards or backwards.  Does this sound familiar to you, or like something on the horizon?  If so, you're not alone.  I suggest taking steps to take care of yourself in order to avoid the burnout that I suffered.  I would also add that waiting for a pwBPD to change or follow through on something is often a futile vigil.

LuckyJim

I have a little file icon on my desktop at work title "Leaving Plan". Sometimes I look at this and remember when I began to make serious plans to leave.

This folder contains:
Document 1
Behavior tracking sheet-I wanted to see how bad things really were or was I just being overly sensitive. I wish I could show a screen shot of it. I would track his behavior AM/PM. I think I set a time frame of 45 days and if he had 30 days with some sort of abuse towards me, then I would move into my next plan of action.

Header 1: Each day of the week
Header 2: AM slot PM slot under each day of the week

List of behaviors to track:
Physical abuse
    Threads of Violence/SI
    Property Destruction
Verbal abuse
     Name calling
     Shaming
     Yelling
     Blaming
     Gaslighting
     Controlling
Spiritual Abuse
     Demands obedience/submission
     Attacking my faith

Operational definitions: I created definitions for each category so that I would be clear on what this looks like to me.
Every time I marked a behavior, I would include a narrative in space below it so I could track the specifics about the behavior so I could remember

Document 2:
Budget-what my monthly budget would look like if I were to either move out or if I were to kick him out

Document 3:
Income vs. Expenses-scenarios as to how we would split the cost of bills that we have together, such as the mortgage

Document 4:
To-Do list of everything I would need to do to separate from what to do with pets, finding out how to safely leave, completing a MOSAIC, finding a support team, etc.

List of things to do on the day that I leave, such as notifying my family and my H's family (so they could support him).

The weirdest thing happened. I don't know if my resolve to leave had to changed my attitude towards him and allowed me to detach enough that I stopped letting him get to me, or he sensed that something had changed, but the period that I began to track was the best time in our relationship in years. He became extremely peaceful, discovered on his own that he had BPD, began learning about DBT, and resolved to focus on his own behavior.

I keep that plan there though just in case things start to get really bad again. It's a reminder to me that leaving is an option because up until that time I felt trapped and if there was no leaving the relationship.

Hi all, 12 hours and over half my wardrobe cut to shreds later... .

heartandwhole just before she announced she was BPD last year she announced she was alcoholic and now I'm not sure she still believes either. As with all problems she admits them and then forgets about or ignores them. If I bring them up, it is impossible for her to admit anything and it will come back on me in full. She had managed to stop drinking for four months before this recent holiday binge. The drinking comes and goes. I hate it but it's not at the top of my boundary list.

FF good points on the emotional decision making. One boundary I've set well since my wife's BPD came to light is I don't make decisions in the context of an argument. The old me by now would have agreed to take a work leave. If she were healthy I might truly consider it. But I don't trust her any more to use the time well or to make major life decisions.

Hi Lucky Jim and good to meet you. Yes that sounds familiar. Actually I went through the whole process of accepting I can't change her (or at least thought I did), but I still want to leave the option for her to change on the table while at the same time taking care of myself and my kids. But I realized I have been waiting for her and passive aggressively pushing this on her, thinking her seeing me break down might catalyze some empathy on her part and desire to change. I need to lose this thinking.

TH That is a fantastic idea and I've already started it. If nothing else it will remind me of what's happened since I have a pretty selective memory when it comes to facing reality. Thanks!

While lying awake last night I had some time to brainstorm possible leaving scenarios: 

1) I move out alone
Benefits: instant relief from situation and clear message to her on where I stand
Drawbacks: this is essentially abandoning my kids and she might become even more unstable around them. She would also have a case to keep me from seeing the kids.

2) I move out with kids
Benefits: I still see my kids
Drawbacks: kids don't have their mom (she is a good mom when not dysregulated)

3) I ask her to move out
Benefits: same as above
Drawbacks: kind of cruel OR might give her too much freedom, also kids don't have their mom, and would probably have to get a restraining order

4) I take kids away to my home country and stay with family (most extreme situation)
Benefits: support of family and safety of distance
Drawbacks: will lose my job and give her a very strong case against me, also might burn all bridges

I think the key to any action plan for separation is that it needs to be sustainable and permanent if needed. Any ideas on the above? Thanks!

ROE

So... how does this knowledge apply to the way you interact and talk with her? 

I do like that you don't want to make decisions around an argument.  I wonder why she was arguing?  I wonder why you were arguing?

What do you suppose she is trying to "fix" with the work leave idea?  (spend some time on this one)

FF

Roland,

Big picture, two things jump out at me:

1.  How you develop and select from your options depends very much on the laws and functioning of the family court systems in your region.  You are not really ready for anything but preliminary planning until you have legal support.  I am not talking about spending tons of money.  I am talking about doing the homework to find a great lawyer who you can work well with, and buying 1-2 hours of his or her time to discuss scenarios.  Do you have a lawyer?

2.  If you split, what are your personal goals for custody of the children? What percentage time would you want custody?  If I were in your shoes I would plan primarily around my goals for parenting the children (which also includes keeping their father intact).

WW

FF as you know its like living in two dimensions. I know what's going on with her but I can't use it to make a case with her since it's less fact than interpretation.

Her view: She can't get a job now because I refused to take a paternity leave when our son was a baby so she had to quit her job and she's been out of the market too long. She can't get a job now because I'm refusing to take leave to let her prepare for upcoming tests/interviews and she has no time.

My view: I did take a six month leave at home with my son, and when it finished she quit because her job offered no leave. She hated that job by the end. Then the sector she's in took a huge hit, we had a second child, and it is super hard for anyone to get this kind of job now. I took a YEAR OFF when our second was born and used up most of my life savings and lost my job to support us both to help her take care of two and give her a chance to work on the job stuff. I found babysitters and kindergartens and have offered to give my entire weekend to give her time to prepare. But she doesn't like sending the kids to babysitters or kindergarten so I'm not "helping her" because my job is the most precious thing in the world to me. Neglecting the fact that they would have to go to kindergarten anyway if she gets a job.

I also think part of the reason she hasn't gotten a new job yet is because she's too chaotic and doesn't have true confidence in the interview. But of course I can't say this.    

Sorry don't know how useful this sharing is but really needed to tell my side of things to somebody.

ROE  

Hi WW and thanks so much for the feedback.

I am very lucky in the lawyer regard in two ways. The counseling organization I work with has cooperating lawyers who I'm guessing have a decent knowledge of mental illness. The second thing is that lawyers in the country I live in do not charge for an initial consultation, only if they take the case. So it is definitely a part of my plan to ask my therapist to connect me with their lawyer for information. 

Planning around parenting goals is a terrific suggestion. Most important is I want them to have both of us in their lives almost every day. I don't know if this is realistic but I really don't want to take her kids away from her. Maybe I need to start thinking more practically and less emotionally? I haven't been away from my kids for more than a day since they were born.

~ROE

Hi ROE,

A few observations and questions:


It sounds like your wife is experiencing some internal turmoil, and is seeking external sources as a solution (If only I had a job, if only we lived somewhere else... .) What is stopping her from moving out on her own, if the noisy neighbors are that intolerable? Does she want you to provide financial support for two households if she does? Does she want to take the kids with her?


I am not sure that "facts" vs. "interpretation" would make much of a difference. PwBPD do not respond to logic and being presented with facts the way "nons" do. For her, feelings=facts. She feels that she needs a job, and she feels that you are a) the reason she had to quit her last job and b) the reason she can not get a job now. It does not matter what the facts are.

Furthermore, you have a job- which is what she feels that she needs- therefore, she is targeting your job as the "problem". You have what she feels she needs, wants, deserves- she may be jealous that you get to leave the house every day and go to work while she is left at home with the kids. She wants to reverse those roles- have you left at home with the kids while she gets to go to work and be part of the world. Hence, the retaliation of taking your phone, shoes, personal belongings and leaving so you have to miss work to take care of the kids. She is not considering the repercussions such behavior may have on your family financially. That is irresponsible and immature. It is also controlling and vindictive. She is putting herself and her emotions ahead of the security of her family.

Add alcohol in the mix, and that increases the level of emotional instability and decreases any propensity for making sound decisions.

I think you need to focus on what is in the best interests of you and your children. It would be nice if you could somehow steer your wife into treatment, but do not let that take precedence over your own well-being and your ability to care for your children physically, mentally and emotionally: 
I sincerely wish you the best ROE. I agree with WW on the lawyer idea. It would be helpful to know your options in that aspect, as that may help you get clarity on some of the specifics regarding what course of action to take.

Blessings and peace to you and your family,

Redeemed

Redeemed, you explicated the situation with such precision and insight I was nearly in tears. Thank you.


Yes, last week it was the neighbor noise, before it was getting back her job it was how painful the job was, before that it was getting a house, before that it was whether to live in her country or mine, etc. There is ALWAYS something ruining her life that I need to resolve for her. I'm sure if she gets a job she will find a new series of problems to pass to me.  


This rings so true it hurts. She's not necessarily just attacking me, she's attacking my job. But I have to protect it. She's working from emotion, I'm working from reality.  

It is not financially possible for one of us to move out unless she lives off her savings (which she has said she would and not use my money) or I borrow money from family. Hence the need to wait for her to get a job. She always says she will leave me when she gets a job or run away to another country and I take the kids, but I know its BS. First because she's terrified to sleep on her own and hasn't done so since grad school, and second because I know she loves the kids too much to be away from them.  

Noting that I just spoke to my counselor and he will help me to arrange a chat with the lawyer. This doesn't mean I'm proceeding with anything yet, but it will help me get a framework for building the plan.

~ROE

Excellent.  Consider finding a way to talk to three lawyers.  Perhaps you can talk to two more from some other referral source, or maybe you could even ask the lawyer you talk to if he or she has any mentors or others whose opinion he or she respects.

How old are your kids?  Consider that if you split, seeing the kids every day likely means seeing your wife every day.  I'm not an expert, but I believe custody schedules with two very involved parents are often split more finely during the week for small children.  Where teenagers might do a week with each parent, young children typically would see each parent every couple or few days.  I'm sure with a Web search on "parenting schedules" or something similar you can find examples.  When my youngest was two, things were very rough for us, and I considered leaving, but wanted to read to her every night.  I am glad for that bonding time, but also now realize that I could easily have adjusted to 50% custody, especially given that the 50% parenting time would be peaceful, without drama, and the 50% without kids would allow me to rebuild, do self-care, and perhaps start a new relationship someday.  So, one possibility for you would be to build a plan around 50% custody, to see if the logistics could be made to work.  It doesn't mean that you'd have to invoke the plan, but just knowing what was possible is empowering.  Do you know if 50% custody for a father is realistic in your region?

If you wife were parenting solo, do you have any physical safety concerns for your children?  I'm thinking specifically of her alcohol use, and the possibility of her passing out and leaving them unsupervised, or trouble with driving safely.

WW

Hi WW, My daughter is 2 and my son 5.  I think the 50% idea is something I could get used to. I have to remember the trade off of losing time with them is time to rebuild myself and be a happier, healthier dad. I feel like dealing with my wife siphons off so much emotional energy that I'm performing at about 30% of the dad I could be.




Yes some concern on passing out since it happened once when she was alone with them.

I won't mince words here... .she hits them sometimes. I've seen her kick my son from behind, slap him in the face, and one time when I was out with coworkers she whipped him with a glue gun stick. If I'm there to shield him I do, but most of the time I don't see it coming. It's not often, and she always deeply regrets it after and comforts him. The only reason I haven't escalated on this is because I know she is trying to fight it and she takes care of the consequences herself and tells him she was wrong to hit. She came from a home of extreme physical violence. Though I've yelled at her about it I usually let it slide to avoid escalation and out of the belief that they both love her and need her. She is a teddy bear with them most of the time. Please call me out if I'm over the line on this. I don't know what would happen if I was out of the picture, so of course I would prefer they were with me.  

ROE

 ROE,

Your wife may be a "teddy bear" with your children most of the time, but some of the time she is putting their physical and emotional well-being at risk.

Would you leave your children with a babysitter who "sometimes got drunk and passed out" and "sometimes" hit them? I am sure you clearly would not.

You are deep in the FOG, ROE, and I feel for you because I have been exactly where you are. It is difficult sometimes in the midst of a situation to have clarity, and I commend you for your honesty and for reaching out for help, to gain the perspective of others. It is clear that you do want the best for your children, and you wish that your wife would seek treatment so that she can be the mother they need. I am sure that she does love them deeply; however, in her current disordered state she is not capable of providing them the level of care that they require and deserve.

You have FEAR- of inciting a rage in your wife if you stand up for your children when she mistreats them; also of being able to financially provide for yourself and your children if you were to leave.

You feel OBLIGATED to protect your wife's relationship with your children. You do not want her to miss the children, and you do not want the children to miss her. You feel a sense of OBLIGATION to both your wife and children to prevent this undesired emotion.You also feel OBLIGATED to keep providing financially for your wife until such time as she is able to support herself, which is what you have identified as the ideal scenario for you to enforce boundaries.

You feel GUILTY for your wife's treatment of your children, for "letting it slide'', for entertaining thoughts of separating her from the children, perhaps even for not having the right "solution" for all of you.


ROE,
There is a difference in what you are responsible for and who you are responsible to :

You are responsible to your children for 1) Providing physical needs: i.e., food, clothing, shelter, and an environment where they are protected from physical harm and 2) Providing emotional needs, i.e., an environment where they are loved and nurtured and protected from emotional damage, abuse, and trauma.

You are not responsible for your wife, for her choices, for the consequences of her behavior, for her decision to seek treatment or not seek treatment, nor for her relationship with your children.

You said your wife experienced extreme physical abuse as a child. I am sure that was very traumatic for her, and it is tragic. However. That may be a reason for her dysfunctional behavior, but it is not an excuse.

When I was in your shoes, I could not see any of this with any clarity whatsoever. I made some poor choices, and I made some good choices. I paid a high price for some of my poor choices. I paid a high price for some of my good choices in that I had to suffer to a severe degree before I got uncomfortable enough to establish boundaries. I also endured harsh judgment for the decisions I made. Please know that I understand fully the complexities of the situation you are in, including the abuse of a mood-altering substance to further compound the symptoms displayed by a pwBPD. I can relate so much to your feelings regarding your wife and her r/s with the children. You do not want to be responsible for taking that away. If leaving is what you ultimately choose to do, please realize that it is not you who is causing the separation. Your wife's behavior is the cause of the separation. That shift in perspective may relieve you somewhat of the uncomfortable emotions you are experiencing in that regard.

Dear ROE, I sincerely hope that you take all that I have said in the manner in which I intended it: I am trying to share what I have learned since coming through the situation I was in. In the middle of it, I was so confused. I did not know how to make a good decision. You are reaching out for help and feedback, and you have a T, so you are doing much better than I was when I was trying to make some tough choices. Planning is good. I ultimately did decide to leave the situation I was in, for my safety and that of S2, and I did not have time to get a plan together. It added a level of anxiety that would have not been there had I been prepared. However, things worked out for us. God is good, and He has provided.

So glad you have a counselor. It is great to have someone for support. Inside a r/s with pwBPD, it is easy to feel overwhelmed and isolated. It does siphon off emotional energy. What do you do to refill your "tank" when you have been emotionally drained? Self-care is crucial. I was not any good at it, and I was running on emotional fumes. I am learning how to better care for myself now.

Keep posting, ROE. I am glad you are sharing your experience. Again, I commend you for being brave enough to be honest and willing to accept feedback.  |iiii  It is not easy to do sometimes.


Blessings and peace to you,

Redeemed

ROE,

I Am Redeemed laid it out for you... about your wife's feelings.

I'm going to press you a bit. 

Step 1, you need to be able to intellectualize  the likely way that your wife processes information and feelings (and perhaps confuses those). 

Step 2.  Have a crystal clear view of how you process information and feelings (please note my difference in language for you and her... .I wonder why? hmmm).

Step 3.  Hopefully with your counselor's support and the support of us here on bpdfamily, you can be deliberate about changing the way YOU do YOUR PART of the relationship.  These changes need to be consistent.

Step 4:  I'll stop here can challenge you to describe what will happen to your relationship after you are consistent in changing your part... .

Thoughts?

FF

RoE,
    I Am Redeemed and formflier have given some great insight and advice.  I wanted to chime in with a different viewpoint that may help you as you decide what to do.
    My first experience with my MIL was when my (15yo at the time) dBPDstbxh took me home for lunch one day.  I walked in the house and immediately heard my MIL screaming at my SIL (9 years younger than my husband, so that would make her 6yo at the time) that she hated her and if she had a gun she'd shoot her.  I had never heard anyone speak that way before, much less to a child.  What I learned in the months and years that followed was that this was the norm.  MIL was eventually diagnosed as bipolar, but I wonder if there is BPD in the mix as well.  NEITHER OF THOSE ILLNESSES EXCUSES CHILD ABUSE.  At that point in time all of her abuse was verbal, psychological, and emotional.  She did eventually hit my SIL.  When dBPDstbxh and I found out about it we both told SIL to tell us or a teacher if MIL ever hit her again.  It happened again and SIL told her teacher and the teacher called CPS.  They left with a warning and MIL never hit SIL again, but there were plenty of times we wished she would because the rest of the abuse never stopped.
    Where was FIL in all of this?  He was at work.  He was always at work.  His life was no bed of roses, but he got to escape the house, leaving dBPDstbxh and SIL to deal with MIL's abuse.  It didn't take long before I resented FIL's unwillingness to protect his children from the daily abuse they witnessed and endured.  It took about 15 years of being out of that house for it to fully dawn on dBPDstbxh that his dad should have done something about it and their relationship has never been the same.
    Even in the early days of our dating I knew that dBPDstbxh carried a lot of guilt about prayers that he had prayed.  He would pray that his dad would leave his mom.  He hoped that MIL would leave a mark on SIL so that CPS would be able to intervene.  He was the peacemaker of the family, so the abuse was rarely directed at him, but he still carries the scars.  He escaped by joining my FOO and still carries the guilt of abandoning SIL by doing so.
    I can tell that you love your children.  It fills every word you write.  I also know that you want them to have their mother.  That is certainly a gift, as many people allow their adult problems to become more important than their children's needs.  I can't imagine the pain of considering separating your children from their mother and vice versa. 
    BUT I can imagine the pain and confusion your son feels.  I can imagine a day when he will feel the need to protect his sister from his mother.  I can imagine a day when he will pray that dad would divorce mom and keep them safe and then cry himself to sleep because of what a horrible prayer that is and what a horrible person he must be to pray it.  I can imagine a day when he be unable to look in your face and call you "dad" because a dad is supposed to keep his kids safe.  I can imagine those things because I've watched them happen to my husband.
    I'm not saying that you need to divorce your wife.  What I am saying is that you need to find a way to protect your children.  I think there may be ways to protect your children and maintain the marriage that provides an "intact" home for them.  If you read through FormFlier's history, there was a time when he had to report his wife for excessive corporal punishment of their children.  There are lots of resources that are here to help you, your children, and your wife. 
    Please remember that your children are too young and your wife too disordered to do what is best for them.  That really sucks.  It really, really sucks that you have to take on the burden of protecting your kids from their own mother.  Please reach out for help.  Share the burden with whomever you can.  Just don't drop the burden on your kids.  Don't think that your wife's remorse means it will never happen again.  Make a plan for when it does happen again, because it will.   
    My prayers are with you.  If there is any help I can offer, please let me know.
BG

Hi Roland,

Your "inbox" is full of replies here, and while I don't want to overload you with reading, I will add one more.

There is a concept called "duty to care" that says that the non-abusive parent has a responsibility to act to protect the children from abuse.  This could mean direct intervention or it could mean contacting the authorities.  It is common in the U.S.  I don't know if it is part of the law where you live, but it almost doesn't matter -- for those of us trapped in the FOG, it's helpful to think about the fact that society holds us to a standard outside of our FOG.  The thing that finally drove me out of my FOG to get a restraining order was the fact that my daughter was witnessing violence and was being co-opted by my wife to normalize it.  It crossed both my own personal line and I knew it was likely to be crossing a "duty to care" line which helped bolster my conviction to take action.  It is one of the most difficult things I have done in my life.  The consequences are still reverberating, but if I had it to do over again, I'd do it.  In fact, if I could do it over again, I would do it much sooner.

Your wife is actively drinking.  And forgive me for not remembering, but she is not in therapy, is she?

Do you happen to have a journal with any of these incidents?  If not, you should immediately begin journaling any violent or neglectful incidents (like passing out).  You also should be journaling any incidents of her leaving the kids so you can't go to work, and any abusive incidents like shredding your clothes.  In addition to being able to show this information to outside helpers, it's helpful to break through the minimization and denial that are our coping mechanisms.

Did you say that you are dealing with an agency?  Are they providing both your T and your lawyer?  I'm guessing you have not discussed the child abuse with them?

There are several scenarios for reporting what's going on, but let me pause for now and let you digest all the responses.

What are your thoughts?

WW

Dear all, thank you for your feedback over the weekend, which may truly save me and my children's lives.

I have hinted at the physical abuse on the board since I came on, but I am ashamed to admit I withheld on the extent both to protect my wife as well as my own failure to act. I hope everyone can forgive me for this. I have been and probably still am to some degree lost in the FOG. I am scared to admit how sick my wife is and very afraid to face what I have to do.

I am close to nervous breakdown. Last night I really started to lose it, muttering to myself and crying / laughing almost hysterically. I thankfully had some anti-anxiety medicine left over and will be calling my counselor first thing today. I have already reached out to them about getting a lawyer.

I am Redeemed, WW and BeagleGirl thank you for being candid with me about this and reminding me about duty to care.

My wife is not in therapy. The drinking thing crept back up quietly and is in full force again, not necessarily every day but more days than not it seems. Last night I snapped at her on my way out to see a friend, and when I came back she was completely drunk while taking care of our daughter. I admit to buying some of the alcohol for her beforehand at her request. I have considered not buying for her, but as she would buy it anyway and refusing would cause a huge conflict I've just been doing it. There it is. I left her with a half sized bottle of wine and my daughter for two hours. She added another while I was out. I'm enabling her, out of Fear and to avoid conflict, because sometimes its too much and I need a normal day. It's no excuse.

I'm journaling now and recording as much as I can remember from the past 6 months. The same organization is provided me the counselors and the lawyers. I have mentioned the abuse to my counselor(s) and will go into full detail with the lawyer.

FF I am most likely about the change the relationship forever. I am going to need to detach (with love) to a large degree while I'm planning and remove some of the emotional supports. I have already been doing this to some degree and I think her ramping up the chaos is in response. There will be more chaos ahead, but I need to keep it at a level where I can still get to work and be able to survive at home. This means some friendly conversation and some appeasing (last night I said I was sorry I yelled, called myself a selfish a-hole, and bought her what she was craving that day to eat, just to buy myself enough space to get to work and get sleep).

The one question I am most deeply conflicted on now is whether to tell any of my family or friends to "share the burden" as BeagleGirl said. I so deeply want to as they all think I have the perfect life and having them with me on this to some degree would be such a relief. But I don't know if it would be stronger than the stress of keeping this a secret and the possible consequences. It may destroy any chance our relationship has of being saved one day. I don't know if it's worth the risk. I may need to at least bring in my father for help, either financial or flying across the world to help with the kids if things go the way I see them going. I really don't know on this one.    

~ROE

  

  

Hi Roland. I’m so sorry that you’re experiencing this. I know and understand how you’re feeling. I hit my breaking point with my ex more than once. It was pretty horrific. I truly sympathize with what you’re going through. I wish I had some sound advice for you. Do you have friends or family that you can lean on? Whatever you decide, please put your own mental health and safety first. Please keep us updated and be kind to yourself, friend.

Thank you for your kind words, JNChell. I am sure my family would come to my support if I told them what's going on. It feels like it would be a huge relief to tell even just one of them how much I've suffered while all they saw were happy family pics / videos. I'm sure they would help out financially if needed, and it would be a dream come true if someone came over to help with the kids for a while if my wife moves out like I hope. If you don't know, I live in Asia, and my family is all in the US. It's not easy to get here but they've all more or less made the trip at some point.

But it might be a huge violation for her if she found out I told them. I know it's ridiculous to even care about that considering how she's violated every aspect of my life including my children's well-being, but below everything I want to leave the possibility of reconciliation on the table for some day. Am I still lost in the FOG to be still upholding this standard of not telling anyone besides counselors? What does everyone think from your experience?

ROE

In my own personal experience, I kept her name safe for a long time for the same reason you have. I still had hope for the future. In those times she was badmouthing me to everyone, I came to find out. Since I have let go of that hope, I’ve told anyone that will listen how things were with us behind closed doors. I’ve gotten some validation by doing this. I also carry a great deal of shame after allowing her to continually re-enter my life with open arms after the abuses she doled out on me. That says a lot about me and my own mental state. I have a lot of work to do. I almost didn’t survive my ex, and it’s been grueling trying to navigate my way out of the rabbit hole that I willingly jumped in time after time.

Ultimately, it’s all up to you to decide what is best for you and your wellbeing. I truly sympathize with you. I understand your pain and the bewilderment of where the woman you love has gone.

Roland, first of all, wow - you've taken a huge first step just admitting this to yourself and on these boards. I'm sure this was very powerful for you and I truly commend you.  

I will share that for about 7 years I kept things secret from my family and friends. The thing that changed that for me was my wife's decision to separate. I immediately went to my parents and shared with them how difficult things were. They already suspected so much, but it wasn't until I got it into the open that I could start to heal. Opening up to them was the beginning of my healing process. I didn't "bad mouth" my wife, or engage in a lot of "she's so awful" kind of talk. I focused on myself ("I had a difficult time dealing with xyz behaviors." "I enabled a lot of this to continue", etc). This is what helped me heal. My brother and best friend wanted to bash, and I'll admit I gave in a couple of times, but I usually caught myself quickly, and in the future tried really hard to redirect or avoid triggering subjects.

Roland, you will need a lot of good, solid support as you continue down this path. You will need a lot of strength for both you and your children. As you move forward, make decisions that will increase the amount of positive, loving support you will gain in the pursuit of a better life for yourself and your children. This is the best advice I can give, and it's the advice I am giving myself as well.

We are here for you whenever you need us - you can do this!

ROE,

I'm very sorry to hear the extent of how difficult this has been. I totally get your not wanting to talk to others—there are so many understandable reasons.

I agree with DaddyBear77, however. I think reaching out to trusted family and friends is the best thing you can do right now. You need support, now. Or the entire family is more at risk than it is already.

Start small, but let someone know what you are going through. There is more support out there than you know, and it will help. You can still keep the hope of reconciliation, but going it alone as you have been isn't working anymore, right?  

Skip always says that "sunshine is the best disinfectant." I think that is a good metaphor to think about.

We're here for you, all the way.

heartandwhole

ROE,

I'm so sorry you are going through this unbelievably tough time. You are so brave to have reached out to the board for answers and support, and that is a good step. I'm glad there is at least one place on this Earth that you can be candid about how you feel.

I just discovered your story tonight. It's very sad, and I am hoping that whatever you decide to do regarding separation, that it brings you great peace and healing.

Hang in there. I'm rooting for you.


-Speck

ROE,

You are taking such a brave step with each post.  |iiii You have support here, and I am so proud of you for reaching out.

I wanted you to know I have done exactly that same thing, many times. In my case it cost me the custody of my oldest children. I only have S2 with me now. D10, D9, S6, S5, and D4 are in the guardianship of my sister. I am ashamed to admit that I still continued to protect my h, and still failed to act, still was in the FOG even after losing custody of my kids and seeing my h refuse treatment and continue the same destructive patterns. Finally I was forced to admit that if I did not leave and protect S2, I was at risk of losing him too. That gave me the courage to make the choice to go. However, I wish I had done it sooner. I am also ashamed to admit that I left S2 in the care of his father several times when I knew my uBPDh had used drugs, because I had to go to work and I did not know what else to do. I was paralyzed for a long time before I made a desperate decision one day that I was not going to continue putting S2 at risk nor suffering abuse myself. I have often wondered if I would be judged harshly if I told people how much I put up with and how I was frozen with indecision and knew that I should have done more, sooner, to protect my son. I just didn't know what to do, and I didn't have this website then, or a counselor. You have two great forms of support in bpdfamily and your T.

I would agree with Daddybear77 and heartandwhole about bringing in a trusted family member for support as well. It sounds like you know your father would help you; perhaps he would be the one to confide in first. I agree with starting small. Even just breaking the silence to one person in your family that you can trust can bring great relief.

I know you fear that your decisions might ruin a chance for reconciliation in the future. That is a product of the control your wife has exhibited over you, and a result of someone who has walked on eggshells for so long that he doesn't know how to start walking on solid ground. May I gently suggest to you that trying to make predictions about the future with only your wife's disordered thinking to use as a reference is not going to help you make good, healthy choices. You must be determined to make the right decision for you and your children. If your wife does enter treatment, and responds well to therapy, your disclosure to family may not seem like a violation to her anymore. But, if it does... .is it worth letting yourself or your children continue to be abused? Sometimes we just have to be committed to making choices regarding safety, even if we fear the unknown. Take it one day at a time. Try not to worry about months down the road. None of us know what the future holds. Just take baby steps and make progress at your own pace, and we will all be here to help you along the way.

This is a very big step you have taken. Several, actually. You have posted here and reached out in an anonymous, safe environment to "test the waters". Now you have opened up to your T. Maybe the next step would be telling a trusted family member. Being in an exhausting r/s drains so much mentally, emotionally and even physically.  It is too much to bear alone.

I send you encouragement, cheers, and hugs, ROE!    . Please remember that you are not alone. The world may not understand, but bpdfamily does. Thank God for this community.

Blessings and peace to you and your family, ROE.

Redeemed

RoE,
    I want to echo those applauding your courage.  Every step you take takes incredible strength.  None know how much better than those who have walked those steps before.
    Please know that we have all done things that we are incredibly ashamed of, myself included, and that allows us to extend grace and mercy to you.  Most of us have had that same grace and mercy extended to us and know the power of having someone look you in the eye, see all the ugliness we've done or allowed to happen, and still say they love and forgive us.  I know that the desire of your heart is to do that for your wife, and I pray that you will be given the opportunity to do that AND see restoration.  I would encourage you to hold that image in your heart but to not look that far ahead for the time being.  Now is the time to look at the next step you need to take and focus on taking that step.
    I'm also going to encourage you to do a little preparation before you take the step of revealing what's been going on to your family and friends.  As Daddybear alluded to, not every family member or friend is going to be equally equipped to help you down a healing path.  There will be some that are unsafe to share your experiences with either because they will focus on the past and revenge or refuse to believe you.  I would encourage you to let professionals or those with experience in this area guide you during this time.  Friends and family can be recruits in the battle ahead, but they probably aren't the best to call the shots.  It will probably also be helpful to focus their energy in constructive ways - making the substance, spousal, and child abuse the enemy, not your wife.  There should be people and places (like a counselor and bpdfamily) where you can fully voice the things your wife has done and the feelings you are dealing with that relate to her.  Once you establish those outlets, you can focus your communications with friends and family on more "need to know" facts about what is going on and HOW THEY CAN BEST SUPPORT YOU.  This is where I suggest focusing your preparation.
    What do they need to know?  They probably need to know that you have been hiding things that have been going on in your home.  They probably don't need to know details of what exactly has been happening.  They need to know that you have decided that the best way to address the issues that you've been hiding is to separate from your wife for a period of time.  If you will be taking legal action that will result in her being arrested or otherwise bringing authorities in to document what is going on, you should probably share that fact and relevant details around that such as what the charges will be or how long the treatment program lasts.  They need to know that your primary concern is to stop the bad things that were happening and provide a safe and loving environment for your children.  You can also share that, as long as it does not endanger your primary directive, you would also like to see your marriage restored.
    What can they do to help?  Probably the first thing to ask of them is that they respect your right to not share details or justify your past or present decisions.  There will be some who you can open this area up to, and there will be some who will trust and believe you immediately without a lot of explanation.  For the rest, having a statement like "After seeking professional counsel, this is what I have chosen to do.  I appreciate your support in doing this, but I'm not willing to discuss the situation at this time." can be really helpful. 
    I hate to say it, but you may find that some people won't be the support that you want and need.  I wish I had been a bit more prepared for that.  I also wish that I had learned earlier how to separate my need for approval from my confidence that I was making the right decision.  I still struggle with that.  I have a really good therapist and she continually reminds me that those who care to see the truth will see it. 
    So how can we help you? 
BG

Redeemed, DB, Speck, BeagleGirl thank you so much for sharing your experience regarding getting in touch with my family. It's given me hope and shown me where my priorities need to be, on saving myself in the present and not worrying so much about the future.

BG thanks for reminding me that it might not go the way I expect and to be prepared. I tend to think too positively and get shocked when things don't go the way I expect. I recently tried to get back in touch with my brother after not talking for over a year cuz of pressure from my wife. I thought he would welcome me back with open arms but the result is he won't respond to my calls or emails.

Redeemed thank you so much for sharing your own story so candidly. I don't think we should be hard on ourselves. What I really think it comes down to is having the right knowledge at the right time. I had known something was wrong for years but it wasn't until I saw it in the context of a mental illness that I was able to do anything.

I plan to get in touch with my dad first, not because we are in any way close (sometimes I think he might be on the autism spectrum), but because he is the one most in a position to help if I need it. At first the biggest help I will probably need is financial if there are high legal fees or if I need to put the kids in full time kindergarten or get a babysitter to help and its beyond my salary. If I do end up taking care of them alone, having someone here to help with the transition would be great, too. 

I will need support here in the coming weeks as I build my plan. I'm still waiting to hear from the the lawyer and thus far have no clue how to achieve the separation. Huge thanks to everyone for your help thus far.

~ROE

ROE,

It's good to hear an update from you.  It seems like you're still sifting through your options. Man, my thoughts are with you as you tackle this most stressful and anxiety-producing time. I know there's lots to think about, but if you can turn your brain off at night and get some quality rest, that will at least keep you running during the day.

Still rooting for you. Write when you can.


-Speck

Thank you, Speck. I had a very productive talk with my T this afternoon. He didn't have much to say about the legal logistics but he was interested in how my biggest fear in all this is becoming "the bad guy" and the possibility of having to face my wife crying and begging not to do this. I suffer from being too soft-hearted, but being soft-hearted to her now equals being cruel to myself and my kids.

My T raised the interesting point that animals have claws and teeth that come out when they need to protect themselves. So I'm trying to get myself more into the mindset of protecting rather than attacking. This after all is my best way of helping my wife if she can at some time accept it.

My wife is going out with friends tonight and I know she intends to get stinking drunk. I will enjoy a night without her and I have already PMed the friend to make sure she gets home safe. A little rest from all this would be a gift. 

~ROE

Likely this is a smart move... .BPD or not.  I'd be interested in how often you do this kinda thing in other parts of your life.

Did your wife ask you to "protect" her or "solve" her getting home safely issue?  Did you ask her if she thought that would be helpful or needed?


Big picture:  There is a BPDish aspect to all of this and there is also a relationship with alcohol mixed in. 

If you had to pick one area for your wife to improve on, would you pick BPD or alcohol?

FF

Hi ROE,

There's a lot here. Just a quick note to say: you and the kids first. First. Whatever is best for the three of you is best and should guide your planning in my opinion.

What did you do while she was cutting the clothes? I'm not sure what country you are in and I know that matters, believe me I know, but when my husband was doing some extreme stuff weeks back I went ahead and called the cops to stop him. He stopped. He did the same behavior but more quietly the next time, I confronted him again... .but I managed to get him to stop this behavior as it actually has consequences for him as well. We'll see... .

What I'm getting at is she has no right to destroy your clothes. At that point she is out of her mind and someone needs to come in and intervene. Do you have an idea for what do for these kinds of scenarios?

many big hugs to you!     

~pearl.

ROE,

Your T makes a good point. I encourage you to keep in the mindset of "protecting"- but remember that you ultimately only have the power to protect yourself and your children. Your wife may have to experience uncomfortable and unpleasant circumstances as the result of her own behavior.

I know you love your wife. I know you want to help her, and you want her to love you for helping her. That may happen. It also may not happen. Either way, I encourage you to be steadfast in your resolve to protect yourself and your kids. The issues your wife has regarding mental health are not your fault, and they are not your responsibility. She is an adult. You can only do so much, then it will be up to her. You are still focusing more on what the outcome will be for your wife than you are for you and the kids. Shift that, with the "claws and teeth" coming out in mind, to what will be the outcome for you and your precious babies when you finally begin to live a life that is free from abuse. Whether your w gets help or not is ultimately her choice. Living a life free from abuse is your choice. Your kids are not able to choose because they are too young. You must do that for them. Put those "claws" out for those babies. Show your "teeth" to the abuse that is damaging them. It may help you to not be so afraid if you can get yourself a little fired up. It did for me. I'm not saying "fired up" by making your wife or anyone else the "enemy", just the abuse itself, as you mentioned elsewhere.

You are doing great ROE. SO, So proud of you!

Blessings and peace to you,

Redeemed

@ redeemed: Agree!  Nicely put.  I once found myself in a similar situation w/my BPDxW.  It took me a long time to grasp that helping isn't necessarily healthy for the helper or the one being helped.  It provides a cover for the helper to ignore or deny his/her own issues.  Plus, it provides an unhealthy dynamic for the one helped, because it foster dependency rather than autonomy.


@ ROE: Great point!  I suspect that we Nons tend to be too nice and often suffer from naivete.  I know I did.  You could say we lack "native brutality" that one finds in nature.  For example, the mother eagle pushes the eaglets out of the nest; the tiger chases its cubs away.  Of course we're not eagles or tigers, but maybe we can borrow a little of their strength in our BPD relationships.

LuckyJim

LuckyJim

IAR makes a good point here.  One I think worthy of further examination.

Most adults to their best learning and maturing (applies to children as well) by experiencing the natural and logical consequences of their behavior (whether their behavior be good or bad).

So... .as adults (and the nons in the r/s with a pwBPD) we need to be very careful about doing anything that prevents, hinders, hides, slows down or alters (in any way) the "normal" way life works.

If you step back and read most of the stories on BPD family, most pwBPD appear to try and manipulate people and situations so they don't experience "life" and therefore mature.

I want to assure everyone it is unlikely they are doing this as part of a well thought out plot  The critical thing to understand is this "appearance" is the result of emotional reactions to their own emotions, which for various reasons they find incredibly uncomfortable.  (again... unlikely they would be able to explain this to you... .or agree with this, should you try and explain it)

So... let's keep this between us nons.

Impact on us nons:  We need to be deliberate about staying inside out boundaries and experiencing our life and do our maturing... .and let them stay inside their lives and do their maturing.

So... .ROE... .how can you see these "big picture truths" applying to your situation?

FF

Sorry to all for the lag; it was a national holiday here yesterday.


FF I would pick BPD since I think the alcohol abuse is mainly just an extension of that. Also at least when she drinks she's usually in a good mood, as horrible as that sounds.

I am trying to keep an eye on the big picture and not fear on the backlash of me asking for a separation will be. This is absolutely a good thing and an opportunity for her if she can see it that way. I've been hurting her and my kids more than helping with my co-dependency.


Pearls the clothes thing was really the camel back-breaking straw for me. I haven't brought it up to her again but its an elephant in the room. Thanks for the police suggestion. I'm considering it a lot more strongly than before. If the police just come to talk to her, does she have a record?

Redeemed and Lucky Jim big thanks for the pep talk! I will definitely need to get fired up when the time arrives.

~ROE

Since I am still waiting to hear from the lawyer I am doing some contingency planning for situations to be prepared for when I do ask for the separation, Everyone's thoughts / experience on how to handle the below and possible situations I have not thought of would be a huge help:

- Hurt the kids, neglects the kids
- Destroys my personal belongings, clothes
- Goes in drinking binge, spending binge
- Attempts suicide or self-harm
- Harass my coworkers over phone, show up at my company
- Refuses to find apartment, move out
- Bad mouths me to family, friends, or coworkers
- Runs away with kids
- Physically attacks me 
- Steals my phone phone, breaks into my email
- Challenges me in court, tries to paint me as abuser

RoE,
    Here are my opinions on how to handle the situations below.  This is a good list to go over with a lawyer and your therapist as well.

- Hurt the kids, neglects the kids:  Remove children from situation where she is causing harm or neglecting, document, and report to authorities.  There's a lot of harm that can be done that does not leave a mark, so you may not have anything actionable.  In that instance you can still report but you may need to take responsibility for keeping them out of the path of harm rather than relying on authorities to do so.
- Destroys my personal belongings, clothes:  Call the authorities.  If you are around while the destruction is happening and can document (video) while waiting for the authorities to arrive without escalating the situation, that would be a bonus.
- Goes in drinking binge:  If her drinking is interfering with her ability to care for the children, see the first point.  Document for future use.  DO NOT ENABLE HER DRINKING.  You should not have alcohol in the house if you think this will be an issue.  I know it's tempting to avoid the argument/appease her, but you should not buy her alcohol again.
- Spending binge: If there is precedent for this concern, don't leave money in accounts she has access to or give her access to credit cards.  Any debt she builds up is marital debt and you will probably get stuck with having to pay it off one way or another.  This is one of the areas that a lawyer's advice would be helpful. 
- Attempts suicide or self-harm:  Call the authorities and (if available where you live) ask for a 72 hour hold for mental health.  Every threat should be taken seriously, but your reaction should be to allow others to remove her from an environment where she cannot harm herself, not try to prevent the suicide/self-harm by doing what she wants you to do.
- Harass my coworkers over phone, show up at my company:  Call the authorities if she shows up at your workplace and makes a scene.  As bad as it may be, having it be a public scene works in your favor if she is the one disturbing the peace and you are not doing anything to escalate or engage.  If she is harassing your coworkers, let them know that you have no problem with them contacting the authorities.  It's their place to do so.
- Refuses to find apartment, move out:  You may need to be the one to move out, at least temporarily.  I had to that and it wasn't great but eventually dBPDstbxh realized he couldn't afford to stay in our home and wasn't going to be awarded the home in the separation.  In the worst case scenario, you will have to live elsewhere (with your kids) until a settlement has been reached.
- Bad mouths me to family, friends, or coworkers:  I think that the best response is to not engage.  It's likely that she will do own reputation more harm in the process of badmouthing you, especially if you stay "above it all" and don't take part in a counter-attack.  If they come to you with questions/concerns, handle those that need to be handled but you may find that not many of them NEED to be handled.
- Runs away with kids:  Call the authorities.
- Physically attacks me:  Call the authorities
- Steals my phone phone, breaks into my email:  Better avoided than remedied.  Make sure that you change your passwords regularly and don't leave phone/computer unattended with her.
- Challenges me in court, tries to paint me as abuser:  Keep documentation of actual events.  Avoid situations that could be easily twisted by her but ultimately you will have to trust that truth will win out. 

    You may notice that there's a theme in my suggestions.  Don't try to handle these situations on your own.  Call the authorities.  It's not only a great way to document behavior, it allows you to disengage and not be the one trying to enforce consequences on her.  Let her face the consequences that are legally her due.  Your job is to practice "gray rock" and not be a part of the problem.
    As I said, these are my opinions and I think these questions should be addressed by someone with legal training, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to contact a domestic violence organization and get their answers as well.
BG

Mindset matters... .why not let her decide... hand it to her.

1.  Get all the legal stuff set up for separation, so you completely understand it all.
2.  Be consistent in boundaries AND try to be proactive about things in the relationship.
3.  Proactive means addressing the elephants in the room and basically saying if we can grow past them... .we can grow together.  Also says you can live with this behavior.
4.  Be consistent about boundary enforcement (hmmm... consistency comes up a lot... )

5.  If she improves... .wonderful.
6.  If she chooses not to improve, you take steps needed.

See how this hands it to her... .?  

Thoughts?

FF

Hi BG, thank you so much for your detailed suggestions which I have already integrated into my plan. Doing this part has helped to lighten my mental loading a little. I've always been on the fence about bringing in the authorities out of fear that this would blow apart any future possibility for reconciliation, but I need to keep focused on the present and the safety of my kids and myself.

FF your reply touches on a question I've been tossing around, that being what to do if she voluntarily offered to go into treatment before I insist on a separation. If she does see the need I don't want to potentially detonate it by asking her to move out, but at the same time I don't want my kids and myself to suffer one more day than we have to, since treatment is a very lengthy process and doesn't guarantee results. And she has a tendency to try things and stop if there's no real consequence. So like you say the legal results of her not changing her behavior have to remain front and center.

In my mind, reconciliation can only occur on the day she can maturely and openly discuss the issues with me and see it beyond black and white. On that day would I know she's gotten better.

FF I saw your post in another thread you mentioned some degree of improvement in your marriage. I was wondering if you are able to communicate with your wife in the way above and if so how you got there.

ROE

Wow, Roland, you've assembled a dream team on this thread!  The set of advice you've gotten here in the last few days is some of the best work I've seen on this board.  Really good work, everyone!

To your most recent point, I forced my wife to move out and start treatment at the same time.  The moving out part was important.  In my case it was required for physical safety, but just as important was it gave me peaceful thinking space and instantly created a peaceful, respectful zone for the kids.  The hard message I delivered through my actions was, "Work on your recovery, and earn your way back."  This was not punitive, it was appropriate.  Another way to say it rather than "earn your way back" is that time spent with the kids and the circumstances of that time should be determined by what's healthy and safe for the kids, and recovery often has to happen before increasing time or freedoms with the kids.  My wife's main motivation is time with the kids.

You mentioned anxiety.  When we hit the crisis point, just before the restraining order, I just about came unglued.  I completely lost the ability to focus at work, and lost my job.  I felt like I was going to drop dead from a heart attack.  It got very bad.  So, you are not alone.  Get as much support as you can, carefully make your plans, and get yourself and your kids physically safe.  For me, the closer I got to the restraining order actually being served, the more anxious I got, like a prisoner of war about to escape, because I didn't want the guards to thwart the plan and have things get even worse.  After you get safe, you'll have a roller coaster of emotions and it will still be crazy in many ways, but once we created a safe space I no longer felt like I was going to drop from a heart attack.  I very quickly knew that I'd done the right thing, even though I still felt very guilty.  With time (I'm now several months after the restraining order being served), I realize that my wife was even sicker than I thought, and I feel less guilty.

Do they have Al-Anon where you live?  My therapist saw that I was in dire straights, having a tough time functioning with the level of support she could give me once a week, so she told me to go to Al-Anon.  I was a little skeptical about the whole 12 step thing, but found a meeting very close to home with a good group of folks and have become a regular.  I figure between therapy and a couple of Al-Anon meetings a week, I can get support from people in person three times a week.  You need more in-person, face-to-face support to get through this.

About reconciliation -- I hear you.  I was in the exact same place.  There can be no reconciliation without safety.  Get everyone safe first, and if reconciliation is meant to happen, it will happen.  If you are being calm, not lashing out, and showing a reasonable degree of care, you can hold your head up high.  Almost certainly, you are hard-wired to be too lenient, so worry more about being firm and protecting yourself and your kids.

Finally, documentation -- I had to do some more documentation work this evening to provide to a custody evaluator.  I have journals and a handful of videos.  I was reflecting on the fact that my documentation has been life changing.  Yes, that important.  The documentation I have, carefully journaled, and then summarized, plus the videos, tell a pretty compelling story, and is making all the difference as therapists, lawyers, a judge, and an evaluator help us sort everything out.

Roland, you are embarking on an ordeal, a test.  You can do it.  Things will be better on the other side.  Let me close with a quote that provided me some inspiration:

"I can't go on, I'll go on."
    -- Samuel Beckett

It may not feel like it, but you are doing an amazing job.  We believe in you.

WW

So... .I won't deny or argue at all that your wife needs to be in therapy.   But she is not here... .so don't take this as "blaming you" or "picking on you".

Plus... .you control you... you have no control over what you wife does.  (always always always keep this in mind).

It's the questions you ask... .that lead to the answers.

I would ask you... .to ask yourself... .and be reflective about... .

"What if I (ROE) see the need to make changes in the way I approach the relationship and those changes make the relationship calmer and more stable, would I "detonate" that progress by asking her to move out?"


Next:  The thing I've had to learn with my wife is there are two big ways I communicate with her. 

1.  When she is regulated and I am "building bridges toward her"
2.  When she is dysregulated and I am "enforcing boundaries"

Those are very different mindsets... .mindset is key, vice the "exact" words that you use (because in the moment... the words will get jumbled, but properly prepared and practiced... the mindset will endure.)


So... .yes I can communicate with her in the way I have laid out.  If there are specifics... I'm happy to go into detail.

Many many many struggles with various things that seemed intractable... .some have resolved... .

FF
 

Hi WW and all, the support you've given on this thread thus far has truly been extraordinary and has been of help to other members who told me they have been following. I'm so grateful to have this amazing community in my life.

WW your story - so well documented in your posts - has been a key reference to me and first put the idea in my head that I could do something. Thank you for giving me a picture of where things could go from here and how to prepare. They do have all Al-Anon here since I know my wife had expressed an interest in it. The advice about face to face support is fully taken to heart.

FF good perspective shift, thanks. Mindset is everything going forward.

ROE

A few more updates before I sign off for the weekend:

She pressed me again about taking paternity leave and I once more asserted I could not take us off stable income and we could do kindergarten or babysitter to help her have time to prepare for job interviews. This resulted in the usual dysregulated threats of destroying my things and leaving me alone with the kids. I told her I would call the police if I came home and found anything else destroyed and I will. I screenshotted all of it into my records.

Today I also did some extensive past documentation w/ screenshots of conversations + photos. I also luckily found a picture she sent me of herself cutting the clothes.

I'm scheduled to have a chat with the lawyer next week and have drafted a letter to send to my father for support after I know all the legal details / fees. Also in the process of secretly moving some money from the US to my account here to be ready. And I called a bunch of kindergartens near our house to see who has vacancies. 

I feel like I'm becoming stronger with each action, less inclined to give in. I feel like I'm growing a shell of armor. I know I'm fighting her illness, not her, and I'm willing to fight till the end.   

I'm scared to death and have no idea where things are going, but as WW quoted Samuel Beckett, "I can't go on, I'll go on."

Hope everyone has a good weekend!

~ROE

ROE,

It's so good to hear that you feel like you're growing stronger with each decisive step towards taking care of yourself. I know you're scared right now as well, but I imagine that the more steps you take towards your goals, the more fortified you will be.

I support your proactive stance in all this and your actions speak to a tremendous bank of courage.

Thank you for taking the time to update us on your outstanding progress. I hope your week is as smooth sailing as it can be under these circumstances.


-Speck

ROE,

Solid on standing firm... I'm glad you realize you are stronger.  Don't be shocked if she realizes it too... .and tries to get you back in line.

Consider something for a bit.

Any reason to be repetitive?

So... .if she presses you "again"... .pour all your energy into being a good listener, being present... .but only "understand" the emotion... .don't deal with any details and definitely and don't tell her anything "again".

Can you write out a brief sketch of how you think that would go.?

The "mindset" is wanting to "lean into" your partner and be there for their distress, yet solve nothing for them... .

If she backs you into a corner where you "must" answer... .

pause...

physically shrug your shoulders (it will help mindset) and  sort of muse aloud that this has been already answered.  Do not get into a yes it has not it hasn't thing.  This is more of a ROE is befuddled why you would answer something again... and pivot right back to being good listener.

Thoughts? 

FF

Good for you on holding the line, ROE!  I hope all goes as well as can be expected over the weekend, and look forward to more updates.  I know it's scary, but it sounds like you are taking solid actions that will help keep you grounded through the storm!

mw

Good for you ROE!  |iiii Your steps to prepare are giving you confidence that there is, indeed, a way out of this mess. In time you will start to see more and more that it is not as hopeless or daunting as you once thought.

As far as still having some fear and anxiety, yes, that will still be present, but "checking things off" your action plan and having strategic resources in place will help you reel that in a little- for the rest of the "fear feelings", well- as Joyce Meyer says, "Sometimes we just have to do it afraid." You are doing a great job.

Also- she actually sent you a picture of her cutting your clothes?    I am incredulous right now. That may be a blessing in disguise for you, ROE.

I'm sorry, it's not funny, but... .at the same time, it kind of is. A little bit.

It's going to get better, ROE- one day at a time. You can do this!

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

Hi ROE,

I've been reading your thread with interest and decided not to comment until now as you've had such great responses already.  However I would like to join everyone else here in congratulating you on your bravery in speaking out about this and breaking the silence.  I know how hard that is.  You're taking huge steps here and ought to be really proud of yourself for facing this head on.  Some day your children will thank you for making the decisions you are right now.  Let go of any guilt about the past.  Abuse can and does have that effect on a person.  

What I want to add right now is that the fact your wife sent you a picture of herself destroying your clothes indicates that she feels in a position of power within the r/s.  She does not expect you to alter that dynamic.  Expect push back from her when she sees that begin to change.  Safety planning is really important.  There will not always be time to wait for authorities to arrive, or even time to make a call.  Be ready and prepared for what you will do and where you will take the children at a second's notice if things start to look as though they are getting out of hand.  

I know she has been physical with the kids, and want to ask if she has ever been violent or physically threatening towards you?  One thing that I learned in my domestic abuse recovery group is that leaving an abusive r/s is a risky time all round, and that it is vital you are prepared for any eventuality.  It is of great relief to see that you are thinking things through carefully.  Have you considered consulting a domestic abuse advocate for additional support?  These individuals guide people through safety planning on a regular basis - they may think of things that you wouldn't consider - and can also direct you to other support services that you may not know of.  I was amazed at the level of support I received and was incredibly grateful for the additional services provided.  I'd encourage you to add them to your support network.

You've come so far in a relatively short space of time.  It's inspiring.  Thank you for sharing your journey with us and well done for reaching out.  That takes great strength and courage.  Please keep us informed of developments.  We're all rooting for you.

Love and light x    

This is very timely and wise advice from Harley Quinn.  I experienced blistering pushback when I started to assert myself against my wife.  It was during this period that the police involvements occurred, four in all.  Luckily none were an emergency response to our house.  Have you introduced yourself at your local police station to ask them for advice yet?  That can be a good way to better understand them, and have them know you, particularly as a man since you might be falsely accused.  Are you aware of laws and police response policies where you are?  There can be policies like mandatory arrest.  Sometimes they look for wounds, sometimes they assume the biggest person is the aggressor.  While calling the police can entail some risk, *not* calling the police also entails some risk.  This is why I'm a big fan of understanding the laws and policies, and making a personal introduction at the police station.  Are they likely to speak English, or do you have the language skills to make it go smoothly?

WW

It might be helpful to learn out motivational interviewing and use it on her!

Hi all, it's been an extremely eventful weekend (perhaps the hardest of my life) with a lot to update but I think my post will cover most of your questions in the process.

On Friday my wife threatened to ruin everything I owned, to which I replied if she did I would call the police, no kidding around. I came home and didn't notice anything damaged or stolen, but my wife was certainly still quietly dysregulating. My son was running around and bumped into her and she smacked him hard on the small of the back. I snuck out later that night and tried to call child services but just got a busy signal. It might be for the best since although its the right thing to do if I start this process before I'm ready and have spoken with a lawyer it could possibly derail things.

On Saturday morning I was doing the laundry and saw my last work shirt had disappeared. I called the police and they came. I explained to them about the stolen / destroyed things but they seemed to think this was a domestic issue and didn't really understand why I called. I kinda pushed them to explain to my wife that what she did was illegal, family or not. She was very angry and rude to them but admitted she did it and said she wouldn't do it again.

As soon as they left she walked over to me and hit me on the back of the neck as hard as she could. I pulled out my phone and said I'd call the officers back and she tried to grab the phone, to no avail. For the first time I could see she was scared. She begged me not to call and said she wouldn't take my stuff but wanted a divorce on Monday. I said divorce possibly in future but all I would agree to now is separation with the kids with me. She said OK and disappeared for a few hours.

While she was gone I finally gave in and emailed my Dad about what was happening and that I might need help. He replied later that he was very sad about what was happening and that he would give me whatever financial help I needed and would try come here to help if I end up with the kids by myself. He also said he was not surprised.

My wife came back later. It was not pretty. Mocked me in front of children, threw clothes at me and tried to get the kids to join. I ducked into the kitchen and locked the door and secretly video recorded what I could, tried to get her to admit to hitting my son. Didn't get that part but got some of her voice. I haven't had a safe chance to examine what I recorded yet.

That night she took me through a dysregulated but calm circular argument, trying to get me to admit it was my fault. I explained me calling the cops was the natural consequence of her actions, and she said it was because she couldn't communicate with me and had to resort to such behavior. She also criticized me for calling the cops before confirming she had took the shirt (her biggest problem with me is that "assume things" and never change this), even though she admitted she did take it. About two mind-numbing hours of this and we finally laughed a little and agreed to get past it. Sunday she went out to see friends and sent me a message saying she was wrong to do what she did but calling the cops was too much. Hopes we can both be better people and we will have to work to get past it.

So that was a huge step and I couldn't have taken it without everyone here's help.      

Beyond the fact that I believe I have made my belongings safe and possibly stopped her from leaving me with the kids again, I have little sense of victory. Doing the above broke my heart. It is one more step to doing the hardest thing. But I'm not ready yet. The stress of it is shaking me apart. I'm still waiting to hear back from the lawyer. I'm ok if they're taking their time.  I need a few days to recover.

*A note on the abuse and an answer to HQ's question. She has hit me for many years. It's not that often and there hadn't been an incident since late last year before last weekend. I thought it might be over before yesterday.  

Something I'm worried about is that "abuse" won't be taken the same in a court here (modern Asian country but still psychologically stuck in 1970). It's more a normalized part of their culture. People see kids getting whopped by their mothers or grandmothers in the street and don't do anything about it. I don't know how her abuse of the kids or a man getting hit will be viewed. Again I need the lawyers input on this one. Also being a foreigner / non-Asian in a country where TV news of foreigners making mischief is common. I'm lucky I speak Chinese very fluently but still afraid I've got some hard truths coming my way.  

~ROE

 

Roland,

I am sorry for the stress you are under.  This stage of acting and asserting ones self against what is going on is tremendously stressful.  Beyond stressful.  When I was in this stage last October, I thought I'd drop dead from a heart attack.  You have an awareness of the load you're under, and talk about being happy the lawyers are moving slowly -- that's a good thing to be aware of.  This is like any other battle or contest where you need to be conscious of your limits to be effective.

One of the things that is going on here is that you are learning, and she is learning.  Always think about what she is learning.  She learned that if she destroys your things, you will push back hard.  But she learned that if she hits you, you won't.  You learned that if you push back, you can have some success.  But then she will also push back.  That is to be expected.  Hold your ground.

If you were in the United States, I would say that you should have called the police when she hit you.  As a foreigner in a different country, you have a different situation.  But perhaps if you had called them you would have gotten two benefits -- you would have taught your wife that you won't accept hitting, and you would have had a chance to gauge how the police would respond to an assault incident.  Hitting you right after the police left really tells a story, and the police might have understood (this woman is over the top, and is escalating).

Have you established a clear boundary with her about hitting you?  That if she hits you again, you will call the police?

Hang in there.  This is terribly difficult.  You have decided to act because the status quo was untenable.  Keep pushing through to get to the other side.

I'm reminded of a time many years ago, before we had kids, when my wife and did a few whitewater rafting trips, working our way up to Class 5 rapids.  The guide explained to us that in order to steer the raft, we must be moving forward.  Even if our faces were full of water and we couldn't see, he needed us to paddle as hard as we could.  You may feel blind and uncertain and scared, but you just keep paddling forward.  Hard.  The rapids will eventually end.

WW

Thank you, WW. We will have to see the long term effect of me calling the police. I did pick up and dial the phone after she hit me with total intent to call and she saw this and begged me not to. My hope is that this one time call will prevent an array of extreme behaviors.  

Honestly, I really don't want to do it again since it was gut-wrenching and the cops here don't seem to know how to manage this sort of thing and thought it was kind of ridiculous. To be honest, they were rather ineffectual and the incident was as humiliating for me as for her. Plus the neighbors saw the police as I was letting them in. We already have conflict with a few powerful people in the building and I'm concerned this could lead to us getting thrown out at some point.

But you better believe I documented everything.  

The second thing is the fact that I haven't spoken to the lawyer yet and I'm totally unprepared to go to court at this stage. So I have to be careful about escalating too soon or doing things like call the cops before I understand my rights here. It's possible they might laugh in my face if I say my wife hit me. Sometimes I have to face the reality of what I am here versus what I am back in the US. Boy I miss home sometimes.  

If I make another call before things get going, it's more likely to go to child protective services. But I hesitate even on that. As much as I want my kids safe as soon as possible, if I detonate the situation before I'm prepared all of my work so far could be in vain and she might even end up as the one with custody. She's the mother after all as well as a citizen of this country.    

I'm going to add one last thing and welcome you guys to talk some sense into me on this. I'm really afraid of getting her arrested since it may destroy her ability to get a job for life (she's a teacher). I really don't want to do that, even if her behavior was illegal. I know I need to focus on the present more than the future but I have to admit I'm not fully there yet. I still really care about her. And I think getting her to move out and lose custody of the kids without charges pressed is enough to get the message to her.

~ROE

Roland, an implicit understanding on these boards, especially in a DV situation, is that the member knows the situation on the ground and has much better context than the members replying on the thread, so in the end their judgement has to be respected.  You are being very thoughtful about your decisions and undoubtedly are charting the best possible course given the circumstances.

Regarding ruining your wife's chances of getting a job for life, are you sure about that?  I don't know how it works in the country you are in, but in the U.S. nearly any of the crimes my wife has committed against me are midemeanors.  In the U.S., the bar for conviction is very high -- beyond a reasonable doubt.  So if your wife were to hit you in the U.S., and you had no injuries, witnesses, or video evidence, it would be "he said, she said," and a conviction would be nearly impossible.  No impact on getting a job.  But the involvement of authorities would be an effective "shot across the bow," establishing a consequence for the bad behavior, and would also generate convincing documentation.  Speaking of documentation, if local laws permit it, get a copy of the police report from the shirt stealing incident.

I don't mean to second guess your decision the other day, though.  I hear you about your concerns about being evicted, wanting to learn from your lawyer first, etc.  I am sure the stress and pain are intense, but you are making good decisions.  You'll get through this.

WW

Hi ROE, thank you for the updates, and I am so sorry you had to experience such a stressful situation. WW is right, when we first begin to assert boundaries and act on the decision we have made to no longer allow abusive treatment, the emotions we feel surrounding that decision can seem to pull us under the waves of chaos and drag us along. However, you have an anchor here. I only wish I had known about this site when I was going through the worst of the storm last October and November. I think it would have been a great help to have a plan laid out like you do. I stayed frozen with fear and indecision for much too long because I did not know what to do. You are making some really good choices. I imagine being in a foreign country as an "outsider" adds a whole different level to an already complex situation. It is good that you do have the opportunity to talk to a lawyer, and I understand your hesitation to act until you can speak with him/her. Perhaps when you consult with the L you can get a better idea of where you stand if you were to need the police or child services to get involved.

As for this statement:
Let me just say that these thoughts exactly mirror some of the thinking that I had. I did not want to "get my husband arrested." However, I have come to realize that it was his behavior that got him arrested. I called the police because he put me in a position where that was the only reasonable choice to make. I am not responsible for the repercussions he experiences as a result of the actions he chose. I was stuck in the mindset of protecting him from the natural consequences of his behavior. I have learned from this website that doing that prevents growth and maturity in our pwBPD. I thought I was "helping", and really I was "enabling". Also, I felt that my actions would be twisted and perceived as being "vindictive" by him. However, I got to the point where that just didn't matter. My safety and my child's safety were more important to me than his disordered feelings.

Whether or not your wife can remain in her chosen field is not your responsibility, and it is a worry that should not even be taking up space in your mind right now. You have plenty of "here and now" stuff to deal with- try to let the far-off stuff go, or at least try to change your perception of it. You seem to be trying to guide your wife's self-destructive course to a soft landing instead of a crash landing. You may not be able to prevent all the harsh consequences, and it is not your job to do so.

You are making good decisions ROE. Keep up the good work, we are all rooting for you.

Exactly.  Redeemed is right on target here.  Well said!  Roland, it took me a long time to realize this.  Mostly I've got it now, but even now I still feel pulled back to the old thinking every once in a while, especially when I'm exposed to someone who feels a lot of empathy for my wife like one of her friends.  But changing our caretaking way of thinking about things is the only way out of the trap.

WW

ROE,

Wow. I'm sorry to read that things have been so difficult for you. I have nothing terribly deep to add (because everyone else has said it so well), but just know that we're all rooting for you and for this quagmire to have a glorious outcome for you.


-Speck

WW, Redeemed, Speck, thank you being with me on this and helping me keep a clear head. Today's post will be a little stream of consciousness since I'm totally worn out and feel a bit on the brink.

Last night she was in her post fight super nice mode, which I think is how she processes shame following an outburst. But before bed we argued, which eventually changed from an argument to something that came within the vicinity (maybe 3 miles) of a genuine conversation about how we both felt about the situation (how much it hurt that I called the police, how I'm not empathetic to the fact that she's been home for 4 years and is now struggling to get a job, the pressure it puts on me when it feels like she's trying to get me fired). It ended with me empathizing, saying that I got lost in all the details and pressure and arguments and forgot about her feelings. She cried. It was a sincere attempt to empathize. But we know the truth of how hard empathy is when someone spends most of the time emotionally torturing you. Before I learned about BPD I was really started to thinking I was a cold monster without empathy. 

In response to everyone's great thoughts about responsibility and caretaking, I do worry about her job because I'm still thinking in the context of the four of us. Salaries here are extremely low, and I even though mine is decent by local standards its still barely make enough to support us alone. My dad has said he will pitch in financially if we split and I have to send the kids to full day preschool, but I don't want to live that way forever. Before this mess, I was kind of counting on her going back to work and bringing in a second salary, together or not. If she's not in the picture I don't yet know how to make it work financially. But she can't be in the picture can she, because living with her is driving all of us out of our mind! The future is not what matters now, but saving us all in the present. I can't focus on our long term financial future right now.

My dream is to run a website with content that helps people build life skills and to make good money doing it. I keep this dream to give me hope of some financial salvation in the future. It feels like the past and present and future are all fighting for my attention and its exhausting. I feel like an [expletive deleted] for secretly getting ready to separate from her while she has taken care of our kids for 4 years and at times done a good job (if we conveniently ignore the abuse for a moment). This is what it feels like to feel responsible for another human being's life and to not know how to stop feeling that way. I guess I'll get there.

ROE

PS - As it turns out she didn't destroy or throw away my new clothes, only hid them. She gave them back.

Hi zachira, so sorry I almost missed your response. Thank you. Could you explain a bit more about motivational interviewing? :)

~ROE

Reply to request for more information on motivational interviewing:
Motivational interviewing uses techniques that were developed to work with alcoholics and drug addicts. The techniques are based on meeting the person where they are at in terms of motivation, including having no motivation whatsoever to do anything.  For many years, these techniques have been considered the most effective intervention for getting alcoholics and drugs addicts to get sober/clean and to stay sober/clean. Motivational interviewing is now used for all kinds of behavior change, and it is easy to learn.  Google "motivational interviewing" and you will find all kinds of information. There are plenty of books on "motivational interviewing" on Amazon, last time I checked.

Roland, I can completely relate to this.  My wife has some outstanding parenting behaviors.  When she wasn't abusing me, she was so good that friends in the neighborhood all asked her for parenting advice.  I admire her for so many things.  But one of the abuse books I read said that you can't be a good parent if you are abusing your spouse.  That makes sense, but it takes a while to understand it in your gut.

Oh, the memories.  Been there, done that.  One could argue that she just hid my stuff for a while, and didn't destroy it, but messing with the stuff I needed to get to work contributed to me not feeling safe in any aspect of my life.  I am still reeling from the trauma of that lack of safety, and will only heal from it slowly with a lot of hard work.  Outsiders might not see the seriousness, but it's about exerting control and stripping away safety.  Even if she is not fully conscious of the damage done to you, the damage is the same.  If this feels like a big deal to you, and it's disorienting that it doesn't seem like a big deal to outsiders, you are not alone.  I lived it.  It's a big deal.  You are not overreacting to take strong action to stop that abuse.

WW

Thank you, zachira, I had a look at MI online and it is a very interesting concept that I could possibly apply at some point.

Hi WW, thanks for reminding me I'm not alone. Your experience has been such a help during this time. How did you interact with your wife while you prepared the restraining order and made your plans, and how did you communicate it to her when the time came? Direct conversation, email?

I'll put the same question regarding communication to the group as well. The truth is I'm not ready to separate just now, legally, logistically, and to a small degree, emotionally. Depending on how long everything takes, it could be weeks or months. When I visualize it I always spring the separation plan like a trap, suddenly notifying her (assuming I've got some kind of legal document to back it up by then). But I really don't want to do it that way.

How should I communicate with her during this time leading up to a proposed separation? She keeps wanting to work on the marriage but in my heart I'm already trying to leave it. If it was just the two of us with no kids, I would have just moved out one night by now. I do hold out hope for future reconciliation but right now its a matter of me and my children's survival to break with this person, at least for a period.

I'm not going overboard to maintain the image of a loving husband, but I'm trying to keep the home life stable to a degree. I feel guilty for hiding all the things I'm doing in preparation while pretending things are normal at home.

When we argue I do bring up separation and the kids with me, but it all gets swept under the rug when the fight is over because after all we have to keep on living together for the moment. And I think my wife is too scared to separate for real, even though she's the one who threatens it about 5 times a week.

Should I start discussing a "soft separation" and then move to make it official after I get the documents?

Thanks for your thoughts.

ROE

Roland, let me answer your question directly, though I don't know if my exact experience will be relevant for you.  My separation was initiated with a restraining order with a moveout requirement (meaning my wife had to leave the home within 15 minutes of being served).  It was a total surprise to her.  It took about two weeks for the lawyer to draft it and get it approved by a judge.  Those two weeks were excruciating, because she was tripling her pressure on me, with severe gaslighting, and I was worried that she would beat me to the punch and get a restraining order against me first (this may have been unlikely, but she had threatened so many times in the past I still felt severe anxiety over it).  Because of the seriousness of the situation, the drastic nature of my action, and the seriousness of her potential countermeasure (false accusation of DV with a restraining order taking me away from my kids) I could not tell her what I was doing.  I would have liked to have a lower threat situation where more open dialogue was possible.  Perhaps you feel more comfortable with some dialogue?  Just the same, I would talk this through with your lawyer.

One thing I did to give things a last chance was go get the restraining order approved by a judge, but not serve it for a couple of days.  During this time, I had discussions with her trying to get her to sign up for a batterer's class and take responsibility for the abuse.  I talked with her until just a couple of hours before the restraining order was served, asking for her help in healing from the abuse, to which she said "That's your problem."

For your particular situation, you might want to post over on the Family Law board.

WW

@ Wentworth: Same for me.  My BPDxW was trained as an elementary school teacher and had a talent for parenting.  Nevertheless, as you note, her abuse affected me and, indirectly, our kids.

@ Roland: I think you are doing the right thing by getting your ducks in a row.  Maybe you could speak with a T about the best way to handle the actual breakup, when the time comes?  There's no easy answer.  I went through a similar holding pattern after determining that my marriage had broken down beyond repair.

LuckyJim

*mod*
I am locking this topic because it has reached its size limit.  For a continuation, please see Part 2:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=322152.0