BPDFamily.com

Continuation of https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321221.0

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My uBPD ex and I broke up in the beginning of january. I'll give a brief summary here of what happened, but of course that isn't the whole story since if I'd write down every detail the post would just be too long.

We didn't have any contact for 5 weeks. Then, almost three weeks ago, he contacted me again. We talked for a bit on whatsapp, just updating eachother, then talking about how we both hated what had happened. He got frustrated and started blaming me, but he calmed down quickly and then suggested for me to come over to his place. I refused his offer.

A week later, on Valentine's day he contacted me again, because he said that he had heard that I was already seeing another. This is definitely not the case, which I told him. He then proceeded to talk about how I was still his only Valentine ever (for some reason he was always in-between girlfriends or in-between trying again with the same girlfriend during Valentine's day) and shouldn't we celebrate that? I agreed to meet up for drinks. We had a nice conversation, we talked a little about how we were both having a difficult time, but mostly just chatted. We hugged goodbye. He said that he wanted me to come over but he knew it wasn't good for me and I said indeed it wasn't and left for my own home. We then had a conversation on whatsapp in which he said that he had thought out about trying again multiple times during our conversation but that he thought it needed more time, because everything we'd try now just wouldn't work. He also said that he was jealous of me and of me doing new things in my life, that I could meet someone new any moment while his life was just boring and I needn't worry about him meeting someone because he didn't have the time or energy for that.

Then, in two days, I heard from two different friends of mine that they saw him with a girl (not the same girl). I asked him about this, since I thought it was the opposite of what he had told me on wednesday. He said that one of the girls was a girl he lived with in his student's house and that the other girl was just a one time thing, he had kissed her when he was drunk on a night out (they were seen on that night out, but my friend said it looked like they were there just the two of them and that they left together, so I don't know if I can trust him). He then pretty much begged me to come over on Saturday night, but I was celebrating my best friend's birthday and just didn't think it would be a good idea to do that, so I refused his offer again.

Then on sunday he asked if we could have dinner together. I agreed to this. We had a nice evening, made risotto and drank wine. First the conversation was light, then it got quite serious. First about how he was feeling (he really isn't doing well, he can't sleep, weeks feel like days for him, his head is very full) and he cried. I tried to comfort him the best I could. Then the conversation turned to our break up and why it didn't work out. He said that he just couldn't handle my problems on top of his own and thinks it wouldn't work now because I'm seeing a therapist and he doesn't want an overanalysed relationship. It turned into a discussion, and we both decided it didn't really go anywhere anymore so I left. Then he messaged me on whatsapp saying that he was sorry about the ending, that he would have liked to have seen it differently, but that nothing had changed. We talked a bit about how sad we felt about it all and I just felt so emotion and weak. He asked if he should come over but I went to him instead. We slept together (just hugging and kissing), and had breakfast together the next morning (wasn't awkward or anything) and I left.

Later that day he messaged me how my day was. We had some light conversation, but eventually I said that I didn't really understand the current situation but if he thought that nothing had changed then it would be best to stop contacting eachother, because it would make everything more difficult. He said he needed more time, because his head was just too full now, so he asked if we could talk again in a week. I agreed.

Then this Saturday it was his birthday, so of course I congratulated him. We had some light conversation, I ended the conversation at some point because I was going out for dinner with my family. Later in the evening he started the conversation again, asking how the dinner had been and if I was still up. I said I was already in bed and he said that was a pity, so I think he wanted to suggest that I could come over.

Then on Sunday he messaged me again with a funny picture. We talked a bit and then he asked me if I had any plans for the evening already. I said I already had plans, but that I was still free on wednesday or thursday. We agreed to meet up for dinner at a restaurant on thursday.

So, that was yesterday, but today he hasn't messaged me at all. During our relationship and at the beginning of our short recycles, when everything was still fine, we talked all day, so this is not normal behaviour. I just don't understand what he wants. One moment he seems so distant, the other moment he wants to meet up (it always comes from him, not me). And I don't know if I can trust him. Is he seeing other girls or not? He has a history of dating multiple women at once, he usually starts dating after a break up pretty much right away. So can I believe him if he says he isn't now, that he isn't interested in other women? It is very out of character. I just don't know what to do.

It must be very frustrating to not know the answer to this question. Are you really interested in this relationship working out? If so, the only thing that I know to satisfy the question is to just sit down with him and ask him directly. Finding out if he is dating other women or not may be tough because he may not be being forthright with you. And if he's not being honest with you, I'm sure that will lead to other questions.

I hope you find the answers you seek.


-Speck

If he is dating multiple women, how would this affect what you do?

Hi blooming,

He still seems interested in you from where I sit, but it seems a bit too difficult for him in certain respects... .Our partners carry such a heavy emotional load that it can be hard, if not impossible in some cases, to take on our emotions/needs/issues.

If you are not a couple, does it matter that he is or is not casually seeing other people? Maybe he is keeping it quiet because nothing is serious and he does not want to jeopardize things with you incase there is still a chance between you? Sorry it is hurting you though!

take care, pearl.

Yes, it is very frustrating indeed. I am interested in giving this another shot, but in order to do that I need to able to trust him again and I'm not sure if I can. Not just about whether he's seeing others or not, but also about the fact that he won't change his mind again and leave. Yes, I want to ask him, but I don't reallly know how to do that? I'm scared to say it the wrong way and anger him. Do you have any advice on how to ask it? I hope he'll be honest if I ask him.

I think then my trust in him will be broken completely, since that means he didn't tell me the truth and then how will I ever know if he's lying or not or if he's faithful or not? So if that's the case, I think it's best we let eachother go.

Yes, the part of his load being too heavy to carry mine as well is something I realize now. So if this works out and we get together again, I will try to keep that more to myself or talk about it with others instead of him, to not burden him any more.

Well, it matters because he has told me that he isn't doing that. He said I shouldn't worry about that and that his life is boring and he won't meet anyone and isn't interested in that. So if he is seeing someone, he would kind of be lying to me and that would be hard to accept.

blooming,

Hello.  Good to hear back from you.


That's completely understandable.


I really hear you on this point. If you were to proceed in dating him, then he'd most likely have to be in some type of individual therapy in order to keep him grounded on that front. And further, he also, likewise, would need to be able to seriously reassure you that he's not headed for the door every time there's a dust-up. Your doubt surrounding this issue is fully warranted.


Well, look at it this way: No matter how you ask him, you are sure to get your answer!


The only thing that I can advise you on in this regard is to first ensure that he is also interested in romantically reconnecting with you. If not, then there's no reason to ask him if he's dating other women. If so, invite him for, say, coffee, or lunch in a quiet, but public place. Stay as neutral in verbal/nonverbal mannerisms as possible and then ask him if he's currently dating anyone.

Sometimes, when faced with difficult questions, there's no way to it but through it.

I hope some of this is helpful to you. Keep us posted on what decisions you come to.


-Speck

So you would want him to tell him if he meets a person even once for coffee? Or to tell you if he is getting serious? Do you think he understands what you want in this regards?

I am just wondering because I was seeing someone once and not entirely sure we were exclusive, it was long distance, but I'd have had nothing against him perhaps talking to or casually going out during certain phases of us figuring our stuff out... .I don't know... .I can understand wanting to get the fine details worked out, but I am just wondering if there is any miscommunication going on? Does he absolutely understand/know what it is you want to know and what that exactly means for you? At that point it would be deceptive on his part... .

~pearl.

I think you already have this problem... .you have data to suggest that he has dated, you have history that he does this and lies about it, and you already asked and confronted him about it and got "I kissed her once" answers. And, you don't believe him.


Are you expecting a long term commitment as a condition of "trying again"... .he answered this too - he expressed serious reservations (as have you), but a wiliness to try or to explore. Neither of you sound ready for a "commitment".


You do know how to ask it. Its not complicated. But you also know he is going to be angry about you doing so.

He seems to feel that you don't have a right to question what he has done when you were broken up - that it is his business. He has made that clear. When you did, it blew up the coffee date. There is a reason is hypersensitive about this.

Before you met the first time, it was suggested that if you dig into all of this, that it would set him back. It was also suggested that jumping into bed would be equally problematic for you and set you back.

That is what happened.

It seems like you both are inclined to play these two dynamics out again.

Why not just spend some time doing public things together... .go to a movie, have dinner, sleep in separate beds, until you both feel comfortable.

  

Hi Blooming.

Basically, Do you want him back?

If yes, then what conditions are needed for YOU to be secure and/or more happy with the r/s?

I agree you can only (partly) know by asking, but sadly, BPD can make someone exceptional at lying to us when telling us what we want to hear - partly because AT THAT TIME, they may actually believe it.  :)uring a sweet hear to heart in a familiar setting, like your or his apartments, he may be very sincere about wanting you, wishing things were better, never broken up, etc.  Because he is in the mode of PULL, and wants to enmesh into you, make you feel and share his feelings.  It's a bit like an empathy vampire.  And by the next day or week, they may not feel the same, so their truth changes.  So, no matter what he SAYS, you need to be prepared to keep an eye out for red flags he's NOT being honest or risk being surprised by being put in the recycle bin, again.  

If you want a monogamous, exclusive relationship, you need to say it bluntly.  "I want an exclusive relationship with you, now."  There is no room for error with that statement.  He cannot "misunderstand" it.

If he says, "yes, we will be exclusive," great!  Work your way through the tools on this site, set some ground rules/boundaries about causal coffee or other private interactions with other people if that is acceptable or not (is drunk kissing a deal breaker?), and focus on moving forward as a couple.  Personally, if he is prone to pretty much dating multiple people at once, I think NO coffee with other ladies (no dinners, no lunches, etc.) is the safest ground rule for you guys to have during this time if you BOTH really want to focus on each other.  Can't focus on the girl in front of you if you head is out a window, looking at another.  Once things are more stable, trust has been established, and he has proven he can BE trusted, you can relax this.  

If he says "yes" but you 1) don't believe it - there's a big red flag.  2) you find out he's not being exclusive a day, a week, a month later, what do you do?

If he flat out says "no, you can't control me."  What do you do?

I agree with pearls that he is interested, but how much is your main concern.  

This is a rough-no-coffee-yet analogy:  You are like a very comfortable pair of shoes - he knows how you will fit, in what ways you may give him blisters if worn wrong, and while he doesn't want to wear you to the club week to go dancing (he's got another pair in the closet ready and waiting for just that occasion) he also feels a very BPD pull to keep you in the closet, ready for when he wants to feel comfy.  Whether you like being put in the closet while the other shoes are worn for other events, gym shoes for running, dancing shoes for the club, he knows he can pull you out when his feet hurt, and get a certain amount of comfort from you, until his "meter" is full.

Ever play the video game Sims?  All the little computer Sim-people have meters - for food, for being clean, for social interaction, for sleep, etc.  As their meters get low, they can freak out, and even go crazy (never really realized how BPD-Sim-behaviour could be till now).  If you see your Sim has a low food-meter, you feed them, then they are done and want nothing to do with food until it's low again.  Same with social.  They need to fill their meters by talking, dancing, and even sleeping together, but once the meter is full, they ignore each other and move on to do other stuff until it's low again.  It's very push-pull.

Anyway - do you want to be one of many meter-fillers, or a girlfriend/significant other?  :)o you want to be called on for comfort and familiarity to take care of HIS needs, while you are told yours are too much trouble, he can't handle them?  :)o you want to feel a need to have people report on his whereabouts and who he contacts when you're away?

I really (and I am only able to see part of the situation and could be missing stuff) feel he likes you "just enough" to not paint you 100% black, and is very comfortable keeping you on hold, waiting in the wings.  You have shown that when he messages, you get ready to jump, asking "how high".  At the same time, he is able to satisfy other emotional needs being a flirt with others.  At this time, he is not respecting you as a person.  He sees you as a security blanket, ready to catch him when another person is unavailable, dumps him, sees him actin a very BPD way and runs off on him.  

I have a friend - she is nice, but can be domineering, and likes to monopolize what we do as a group of friends.  She is easily bored, and does not self-entertain well, and has a short attention span.  So, to satisfy her need to be entertained, she sends a separate text to ALL of us, her friends, asking "what are you doing?"  She casts a net to see who's free, who might be able to go do what she wants, and she takes the most interesting "bidder".  One friend was insulted to learn she texted all of us at the same time, seeing who had the most interesting day planned.  I kinda just don't respond unless I really want to be at her whims - I'm too old and tired for that nonsense.  

If this were any time period before the 1990s, you'd have a better gauge of his intentions, because he'd have to walk his butt over to you or try to catch you on a land-line phone.  Being free to message/text you on a whim takes VERY little effort, and you don't know how many other people he is texting at the same time.  If he had to come over to your apartment with flowers each time he tries to make up, at least that show he cared enough to exert a little more effort than twiddling his thumbs to pull on your heartstrings.  What if you insisted on not texting more than a time/place to meet, but that all REAL talk had to be done in person?  :)o you think you'd hear from him more?  Or feel a little more comfort that he made effort?  Actions speak louder - intermittent texting shows intermittent interest.  

So, be blunt, be aware, and just be honest with yourself - if you felt GOOD about these interactions if you felt he was showing honest interest and there was a good path to getting back together, you'd not be setting up 3 separate posts about it.  Your own intuition is telling you your answers.  That does not mean don't try, that it is impossible and that he is not maybe still very attached to you, but even if he is, you are still free to decide if this circus of flying monkeys is where you want to invest your heart - you are broken up.  He has said he regrets that but won't take it back.  But still expects you to give him attention and sympathy on-call.  This is not fair to you.  

Being in a BPD relationship requires US to be honest and have our eyes open about that choice.  This r/s is in a good place right now for you to detach if you feel he won't commit, won't be honest about committing, or he might just do this all over again in a period of month/years.  But you have to be willing to set up those boundaries to help you detach enough to look at this eyes-fully-open.

It seems there are three options people have discussed with you.

Walk away (your therapist) - walk away, its clear that he is in dating mode and not looking for a serious re-connection.

Confront (some members here) - confront him about what happened during the breakup and demand exclusivity and a precondition of going forward.

Start over, date (some members here) - change your approach to the relationship (don't do the same thing you did the first time that didn't work), take risk, move slow, try to rekindle a flame that will bring the two of you together.

I'd like to encourage the participants in these threads to contrast the likelihood of success of there various strategies in rebuilding your current situation in to a healthier relationship (not a repeat of the last relationship).

What has the best chance and the worst chance of getting you to your goal?

it is pretty normal behavior at this early stage of dating. what youre describing would be too much too soon, and a repeat of the past.

i get it. the last gal i saw did all of the contacting. when she didnt contact me i would over analyze, get anxious, and sit on hold waiting for her to do so. its no way to live. before this, you were living your best life, and it was working for you. it happened to be attractive to him. but when he showed up, you stopped living your best life and went all in.

he said lets talk in a week. you gave him some space. you engaged with a very light, obligatory birthday wish, then gave him more space. what happened? he proceeded to contact you multiple times. you kept cool and you werent distant, but you werent overly available. so he pushed to make plans. progress. the natural flow of things.

thats more than enough to suggest to me that what is important is to get a good read on this situation, see it for what it is, and what it isnt. it suggests to me that a too much too soon approach strangles the connection, pushes him away. it suggests to me that a light touch, keeping cool, living your life, allows a lot of room for the two of you to connect, and that when you keep cool, dont put your life on hold, he pursues.

you can confront him and push for exclusivity. ive done it, in too early stages, out of my own anxiety. its blown it up every time. a few of those times, i pulled back, got myself together, and then things proceeded. hes made it pretty clear that if you do this, at the very least, he will pull away (his head will get too full again). at best, you will feel like youve gotten something off your chest, but youre not likely to be happy with the outcome.

Very true, but I just don't think he is open to that. He has a very negative opinion about therapy.


We're going out for dinner tonight, so I could ask him then. The problem is I have asked him before and he said that he isn't dating anyone, but I'm just not sure if I can believe him. He has also said that if we would try again that it would of course be exclusive (so no dating others), but I know that he has lied about this in the past to his other girlfriends (not in our relationship luckily), so I just never know if he speaks the truth. I guess I'll just have to trust my guts tonight when I bring it up.

I'll keep you posted!

I want it to just be us when we start dating again. I have told him that (that if we try again I need to be sure that it's just us) and he said that wasn't a problem at all. So I hope he understands that it means not dating other women in any way or form, but of course he can drink coffee with someone if it's just a friend!

So yeah the only data I have for this is that he was seen alone with another girl in a night club by a friend of mine who also saw them leaving the dance floor together, but he says he only kissed that girl. He could still speak the truth, I don't have any evidence that he actually dated her or is still dating her. But you're right, I already have this problem. Do you have any idea how to solve it?


Hmm no that's not true actually. I only asked him about it on whatsapp and he reacted quite relaxed, saying that he understood that I didn't understand the stories I had heard and that I couldn't link it to him telling me he hadn't met anyone and didn't have the energy/time for that. So he actually didn't react very hypersensitive. He said that one of the girls he was seen it was his housemate and that the other girl he only kissed when he was drunk and that nothing else happened and he hasn't spoken to her since.


Yes I suggested dinner for tonight! Now I only have to be strong enough to decline his offer when he asks if I sleep at his place.

I do.



I need to feel like he actually wants to be with me, and only me, and that I'm not just a solution for the fact that he doesn't have the energy to find anyone else.


I have said this. I said that if we want to try again I want it to just be us and no dating others. He agreed to that statement.


Which tools should I work through first? I have read some things on JADE-ing and validating, but not a lot. I think I could learn a lot more.


Yes, that's a very good question. Of course, if I would find that it out it would be over between us. But I'm just scared for how much that would hurt me. But I just don't know how to be sure that he's speaking the truth, how to convince myself that he's true to me and only me. I know more about his dating past than I should know because I know friends of his exes, I know more than he thinks I know. And this knowledge about his past has altered my opinion of him. Maybe that's very unfair? We can't keep blaming people for their past and stupid decisions they made a few years ago right?


Pfff yeah that's a harsh one, but it kind of sounds like his behaviour. So how do I get him out of that behaviour or how do I found out if he's sincere or not or that I'm just there to make him feel comfortable?


Wow, thank you for all this. It really made me think and I've read it multiple times. I think I'll copy some of it to use when I see him tonight. I'm sorry I don't really know how to respond to it because it's just so much information, but thank you. Any idea on how to ask him if he wants to commit or not?

I try to live my best life still, do all the things I did when he hadn't contacted me yet and not let his opinion about the things I do ruin my enjoyment of them. I try to keep my distance, rejecting his invitation to spend the night and things like that. I am really trying to keep my cool, it's just hard.


Yes, that's a very good analysis, it's exactly what happened, I realise that only now.


I have told him that if we actually want to try again that I need exclusivity and he's agreed to that, but you're right, he's not ready for actually trying again yet. But I just don't think I can handle the idea of him dating others as well as me, since we've shared a whole relationship together already and it just feels like such a step back. I'll try to talk about it with him when I see him tonight.

Hi blooming  

I'd like to provide a supporting response to this^.  :)

I do think not-JADEing and learning how to validate are very big deals. Good job to yourself on looking into those. I think if you know how to simply validate well, it will pay off heaps for everything else you do.

There are heaps of helpful lessons on bettering the relationship here (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.0). The kind staff here have also already indexed them for you pick in a suggested order.

To offer some suggestions in the context of continuing a relationship (mine was short-term, I'd like to also see some suggestions for those married couples too  :)  , I would probably figure out:

• Recognition tool... .what am I dealing with? Basically, what distinguishes a pwBPD from a not-pwBPD; see WHEN you'll need to bring your skills into focus (hint: dys... .).
• Caretaker tools... .how do I be the caretaker? Basically, how do I know and maintain my own storehouse inventory of mental health, with the additional responsibility of being able to look after someone else's.
• Personal tool... .how do I "do" mindfulness? Basically, how do I get into this state--and what does it look like to be out of the state.

I think those are basic of the basic around the time after you pick up validation and not-JADE. I strongly encourage you to use the site's lesson list to choose your own, because all of us know our own relationships best here (aside from adjunct Ts and Ps).

bushels is right - only you can look through the tools list and lessons and see what may apply best to your situation AND work the best for your personality to employ.

Some people on here are VERY good at being able to state things bluntly, like "you are violating a boundary, I will not engage with you until you respect it" and making it stick.  I am a much more passive person overall - stating things succinctly and directly is something I have been working on for years both in my personal and professional life.

Personally, I work on validating the valid things I can - I do not validate the invalid, like blaming me for his feelings.  This can get tricky if I have actually done something wrong, but his feelings are out of proportion to the offense because he chooses to dredge up old hurts.  Sometimes, simply being a good active listener does the trick, and lets him know he is being heard.  I may not agree, but he has been heard. 

I am working on not JADE-ing, and I think I have gotten better at recognizing when I start to do it and stopping - will never be perfect, but my goal is to diminish drama and get past the initial stages of high emotion to be able to actually work on the problem. 

I have my best try at a boundary about not being yelled at - I do not state my boundary other than to ask "stop yelling at me."  and then I try to leave the room or house if it continues or gets worse. 

It's all a matter of nuance, like, just ebcause he raised his voice doesn't mean I grab my keys and go - there is a point I sense that means it's not going to die down, and THEN it's time to disengage.

I know my shoe analogy is rough, (told you, had not had coffee  :) but it also applies a little to you.  He's like a pair of heels you saved up to buy, that look great and can feel pretty good at first, partly because they make you feel so pretty to wear them.  But then, they hurt your feet in varying degrees, depending on how long you keep trying to wear them.  And so after a while, you take them off, but keep them nearby.  You invested so much on them it feels like a shame to give them away to someone else, and you try to not remember how much they hurt, pinch your toes, cut into your ankles, blisters, and can even make your feet go numb for a while even after you've taken them off - instead you try to remember how good you feel when you first put them on.  So instead of looking to see is another pair of shoes makes you feel just as pretty but is kinder to your feet, you seem to believe this may be the only pair of shoes for you.  You put them in the closet, and pull them out time to time, and cut up your ankles all over again, only to repeat the process.

How to ask him?  You say you've stated things to him already - you want to be BF/GF, no side chicks, no side guys.  He claims to want the same, but you are fearful - sadly, the only way to learn is a person is trustworthy is to trust them. 

If you want to really dive into the pond again, just do it this time with your eyes open.  Hear more than what you want to hear, try to see him for him - try to see how he sees himself, and though this can often hurt when BPD is involved, try to see how he sees you.  This can shift like the wind as you are painted black then white and back again. 

A relationship is a process for its whole duration.  I know we speak of happily ever after, but that's not real.  Day to day, you have to be able to work through things, deal with minor annoyances and major issues.  You change as this goes on, he (or whomever you are with) changes as it goes on.  BPD does not like to change, rebels against change, because change might mean abandonment.  Might mean blame, or new responsibility.  If you are going to give this a go - I suggest you write yourself a private, clear list of what you will accept and won't, and refer to it once a month or so, to make sure you're not allowing yourself to slide away from respecting yourself.  He doesn't need to see this - it's for you.  All of this is pretty much for YOU.  Boundaries protect you, they dont' change him.  Validation, stopping JADE, all of these minimize drama for YOU, to help make YOUR life less painful, more stable, and help you become a stonger person overall.

Hi everyone!

I'll respond to all your comments (thank you for being so responsive and helping me so much!) later, but first I'll update you.

Yesterday evening I went out for dinner with my ex. We had a really nice time actually, talking for almost 4 hours straight. Of coure, because it was in a restaurant, we couldn't really have any serious conversation about us or something, but still there was enough to talk about.

After we paid I got quite nervous, because I had no idea if he wanted me to come over and I knew that if he did I had to reject his offer, based on all your advice. We got our bikes and cycled to the point where we would need to part ways. He said he had a very nice time and I said I had too and he wished me good night and then kissed me. I pulled away quite quickly (I don't really know why, maybe it startled me), wished him goodnight as well and good luck with getting up early and cycled away.

When I got home he had messaged me something like "Well, that was a very abrupt goodbye" and I said I agreed, because it was, it was kind of awkward actually haha. He then proceeded tot alk about how he was going to get into his cold bed and that if I wanted I could get my stuff and come over to him. I said that I thought that wasn't a good idea as long as stuff are so unclear between us and repeated how much I had enjoyed the evening. He got quite frustrated, saying that I was always so crazily correct and stiff and difficult and "didn't I have any needs needing to be fulfilled?". I didn't cave though and wished him a good night again.

I hope I did the right thing. It's not nice hearing those kind of stuff from someone you care about and knowing that you disappointed him. I hope it doesn't end here, but if it does, then at least it's clear what his intentions were. At least he knows now that I'm not his dog in leash, always available whenever he pleases, I guess?

Hey Blooming!,

Im glad you had such a good time with your ex at dinner. You did great by not bringing up anything serious and kept things light and cheerful.

Don't beat yourself up about pulling back. You were true to your emotions, and perhaps it was a sign to not rush back into things. As for the texts from him, I believe he is frustrated that you perhaps aren't being so easy this time around. Good for you. You are the catch, don't forget that.

Thank you so much gotbushels! I will look into all the things you recommended and also look at the lesson list myself to see what applies to me.

isilme, I'd like to share something that I think will support what you've said here. Something that was more blessed into my life rather than learned--I saw and experienced people that struggle with this issue here, in life. It seems to be quite a recurring issue with a lot of people. I wanted to share that because I felt comfort whenever I saw things I recognised from this community, but outside of this community.  :)

Moreover--on skills and things here--I admired the senior members here like Waverider and Greykitty because they seemed to be very adept at these difficult things. Sometimes I thought, "Wow, I can't do that boundary--how can you just walk out--what happens when they explode?" Looking back on it, I still feel quite awestruck. S'more comfort here is knowing that these members have been living with these hard situations for many more years than I have. That helped me to access some self-compassion whenever a nut wouldn't crack.  :)

Yes. Building on what you said, I also want to highlight that listening attentively is a form of validation. It's a great example because it communicates understanding without agreement. That's hard! I think sometimes that's really hard. Good example is also further to the other thing you said:
After I learned the not JADE-ing bit, I found myself thinking, "Umm well that's everything I have to say, so if I don't JADE, I just stand there?" And I do remember standing there. It was so weird. The air was so clear even though I was a bit lost as to where the conversation was going.    Attentive listening helped there because searching for understanding of where the pwBPD is at, at the given time, that's a validation item that you can do when you're stuck without anything to say.

---

You're most welcome blooming. One tiny piece at a time--each piece is progress. The recognition is often the hard step--and you've already done a lot of that.  :)

Good boundary enforcement.     That was very hard to do I am sure, but the next time you find yourself facing enforcing a boundary with anyone, not just him, you will know you can do it.

It sounds like you managed to spend time in a good, safe environment that allowed you to still be able to choose when you needed to separate, and you were also very good at letting him know that the uncertainty of where you both stand with each other outweighs any "needs to be fulfilled".   |iiii

Yes, I'm really happy with how things went yesterday! And this morning he messaged me saying he was sorry for his behaviour and that he shouldn't have projected his frustations onto me. I'm glad he sad that. And it means that he's still interested even though I rejected his offers last night, because he is still messaging me the whole day. So I'm really glad I enforced that boundary.

Curious to see how things will go on from here.

Hey Blooming,
how is your situation going?

Thank you for asking CryWolf! The situation is still quite vague, I'll try to summarize what happened since the wednesday we had dinner together.

Since that time I saw him two more times and I'll see him again tomorrow. On the sunday of that same week we had dinner together and went out for an evening stroll and some ice cream. We talked a lot and had some beers and just a really good time. I didn't plan on doing it, but when he kissed me things just escalated and I ended up staying the night. But I guess things like that happen when you're dating, so maybe I shouldn't fuss about it too much. The day after that he had to leave early but I stayed in his bed. So I guess it's a good sign that he's trusting me to be alone in his room already.

That sunday night we talked about a concert we both wanted to go to, which was that coming friday, so we decided to go together. In the days between sunday and friday we messaged eachother every day, sometimes more, sometimes less. Friday we first had dinner together and then went to the concert. During the dinner I tried to talk a bit about the situation, but it seemed like he wasn't really up to it. He said that he was having a really good time now, but that he couldn't give me any answers. I said that I found it hard that I didn't really feel like he really liked me or really wanted to spend time with me, but he didn't really reply to that. So it's all still very vague. He did say again that I really shouldn't worry about him being with anyone else, because he isn't. So I really need to try to trust him on that. I did see two dirty teacups with only one teabag on his table, so things like that make me think immediately that he had company. I hate myself for finding it so hard to trust him, because it's pretty much all based on things he's done in the past, but he has never done anything like that during our relationship.

Since friday we again talked every day, sometimes more/sometimes less, and yesterday (sunday evening) he kind of insinuated that we should meet up again, but he kept it quite vague. I decided to leave it with him, but he didn't really ask when I was available, so I found that quite difficult. I feel like it's mostly me asking to meet up. (The dinner on wednesday was because he asked to have dinner on the sunday before that but I couldn't so I proposed wednesday, meeting up on sunday was because I proposed it and the concert on friday was pretty much my proposal too I think). So out of insecurity I messaged him something today like "I'm not sure if it was on purpose that you didn't want to settle on a day to meet up again yesterday, so I feel a bit awkward asking this but... .Do you want to meet up sometime this week?" He didn't react well to that. Said I was making problems that weren't there. But we did agree on meeting up tomorrow. I regret sending that message to him. It was out of insecurity, but I know that he has told me on multiple occasions that I make problems that aren't there so that's why he's really annoyed by this I think. I'm scared I ruined something.

But, the problem is, I really don't know what he wants. Does he want this to become a relationship again, does he like me in that way, or does he just want the company and the intimacy without any of the troubles of a relationship? I really want to know this, but don't know how. Because I don't want to pressure him and I think that if I talk about these stuff too much I will surely push him away.

So, how to proceed? Any advice, any insights on the situation?

Hello again, Blooming.

It's great to get an update from you.


I know that you seriously and ardently want to know what his intentions are with you, and this is perfectly understandable. I know you don't want to get hurt again. However, do you think you are able to settle down a bit and let Father Time shake out your questions regarding his intent?


As hard as it is to hear, he is giving you feedback here. Whether you actually are or not, is not the point. He thinks that you are. This may be a red-flag for him. So... .relaxing a bit in this regard may help, although I know it's not fun to not know where you stand with someone.

I hope this is helpful to you. Keep writing, keep processing!


-Speck

Aw thank you! So nice of you to say that.


I hope so, it's what I'm trying to do. Yesterday we met up again and we had a really nice time (in my opinion, of course I don't know exactly what he thought of it and I think it's weird to keep saying after every time we meet up "I had a really nice time yesterday", don't you think?). I didn't bring up anything about what our current situation is but we just had a nice evening and he acted quite affectionate, which was nice. He also was really open with his phone around me and I didn't see any messages by other girls, so that helps with me trusting him more. I hope I can keep up this settling down. It's hard though. But I don't want to ruin the way things are going now, so that helps as motivation.


You are totally right. I think he is right, at least to some extent. I overanalyse everything way too much and see problems where there are none. It is definitely a red flag for him, so I will try to let it go a little. I'm just so scared he will decide that he doesn't like me enough anyway and let me go again.

Well, understandably, you're quite a bit gun-shy based on your previous history. Makes total sense. However, since that old relationship died, this time you're starting this relationship anew, and it must feel that way to you and to him in order for things to progress in a more organic way.

Enjoy the process, and feel free bring your understandable anxiety here, rather than on your dates!

You're doing great!


-Speck

It's very hard to not think of the old relationship because I can't act like this is the first time I'm dating him, like there's no history between us and I don't know so much about him already. Do you have any advice on how to view this as a new, separate relationship?

Pfffff I felt so good this morning because we had such a nice time together last night and this morning and I really felt like he was affectionate and liked being with me and I felt a bit confident about the whole situation for the first time. But now tonight happened. He said he was eating with housemates at about 7 p.m. and since then hasn't read or replied to my message even though he has been online on facebook and I think on whatsapp too. Why would that be? My immediate go-to thought is that he is with someone else and that he doesn't want to let that person see that he's messaging me. I hate that that's my go-to thought, that I still can't trust him. Even though yesterday, when we we're together, he replied to a message on whatsapp web around 8 p.m. and I was sitting next to him so I could see his chats and I saw that he hadn't spoken to any other girls as far as I could see (so at least not that entire day). That really gave me hope that I could really trust him when he said he isn't seeing anyone else. But now I'm worried again that he is. I really don't know how to stop myself from thinking these thoughts. I just don't understand why he can't just send a short reply or something. Because it's now already almost 10 p.m., so you would think that the dinner is over. Well, I hope he does still reply this evening and wishes me good night, otherwise I definitiely know enough... And even if he replies I still don't know if he's sincere or not, because it could be that he just went to the bathroom real quick to reply or something. This is so tough. I hate these thoughts.

Hi,

Am also trying to renew my r/s.

Guess I would say don't go into negative thoughts, if possible.

My b/f told me he is dating others.  We are separated for 1 year, and in counseling to see if we can create a new r/s.

It is so difficult to imagine him w someone else.

I have no control over that, him, or anything. Except myself and my life.

It doesn't help me to go down those paths.

I just have to be me, here and now.

Self care, doing things that increase my self esteem, and praying, reading here, finding some peace, calmness and strength
 
It's possible.  When i go into negative thinking, it makes me someone I don't know.

Blessings,

J

Hello, blooming:

I see what you are saying.


No, but I do like what juju2 has shared about how she deals with negative thoughts:


This is a really solid coping strategy! I know you're having a tough time, blooming. If you try the mental exercise above, perhaps, you can find some peace.

Wishing you only the best. Hang in there!


-Speck

Hey Blooming,
I know how it feels where Your mind starts things out of nowhere and it’s like it is trying to find any negative thing to prove that your partner is cheating or seeing someone else. It also is nerve racking not knowing “what are we” but at this moment you need to take things at a steady pace and rekindle the relationship naturally.

I know how bad you want to stop the intrusive/obsessive thoughts of him possibly cheating. In all honestly there is a possibility that everyone’s partner in the universe may cheat on them. But it all comes down to trust in the the end. It may be hard but you need to practice trusting his word. Try taking  few deep breathes whenever those thoughts come to mind.

Hi J,

Wow, your attitude towards the whole situation is very admiring. I'm trying to do/think just like you, but am just having a difficult time doing it. Because of how hard I find it to let go I am realising more and more how that was part of what went wrong between us. Of course, his BPD behaviour was very hard to deal with, but I wasn't the easiest person too. When something was wrong with me I either told him way too early or too much (mostly about my insecurities and body image) or I didn't tell him enough (because I didn't want to upset him or something). This was a red flag for him. I am trying to change my behaviour and be a better (potential) girlfriend, but letting go of control is just difficult.

Hi CryWolf,

Yeah, and it's kind of unfair to him too. Because I'm basing these doubts about his trustworthiness almost only on things he has done in the past, before our relationship started. I don't think it's fair to hold his past against him in that way. He was having a very difficult time back then, with him cutting contact with his father and his mother being very ill. Who says he hasn't changed now? I think I should give him the benefit of the doubt in that aspect.

I just hope that this unclear and vague situation will not last too long, because there's only so much of it I can handle. Whenever I'm with him things are fine, but because we don't see eachother very often now (once a week on average) there is a lot of time when I'm not with him and that's hard. Because via whatsapp you can easily interpret things differently and our way of communicating is now so very different then from when we first started dating/during our relationship. Then we talked all day long, now it's mostly that someone sends the first message late in the afternoon or early in the evening, so we don't hear from eachother as much as we used to. I don't know what to think of this. Also, when we first started dating we saw eachother a lot more than now. But our lives are different from back then, especially his life, he is a lot busier than he used to be, so maybe I shouldn't think too much of it.

Hi Blooming

You can do it.

It takes practice.

The other thing I am doing is I signed up for 2 classes at comm college.  Also I volunteer 2 times or more, each month for something I believe in.
Both of those activities boost my self worth, self esteem, and it gets me out of my own head.

I took me probably 3 months of all of this action, to get out of my head, starting to see who I am.

All of this makes me more attractive to the world,
I see things opening up, my universe is expanding.  I smile more.  I laugh more.  I am not so serious.

Also, should let you know that i go to al-anon, am co dependent.  that program, working the steps, going to meetings, and working w my sponsor helps greatly.  I can see my character flaws.

I get to design who I am going to be and how am going to live... . it's freeing.

I have hope now.

You can do anything!
j

You're doing a great job J, keep it up! My life is quite full even if my ex isn't in it, so I guess I'm doing okay in that aspect too. I study biology at uni, work at an ice cream parlour, volunteer at the local music venue, row at my rowing association, take singing lessons and have quite a few friends I can hang out with.

Pfff I hate how he is giving such mixed signals and how he can get sulky and grumpy at me from one moment to the other, I really do not know how to deal with that at the moment because everything is so fragile at the moment. So everytime I do something slightly wrong in his eyes I'm scared that it will be the last straw.

For example, Thursday evening I was having dinner with a friend, but I was done quite early, so I kind of hinted to him that I was free the rest of the evening. He suggested getting an ice cream. This made me really happy, because it was him who suggested it, which means he wants to see me too and it's not just mee asking if we can hang out. After the ice cream we watched a movie together and I stayed over at his place. He was really tired and had an exam the next morning, so we just cuddled and fell asleep. The next morning he gave me the keys to his house so that I could take care of his plants and fish while he is away on holiday next week. I thought that was a really good sign!

But then yesterday evening he was hanging out with a friend (I was too) and he hardly replied to my messages. Whereas in the past he would reply quite quickly, even if he was with friends, now he only replied after 3 hours. I think this might be because he doesn't want his friends to know that he's seeing me again? Because I'm quite sure he hasn't told them yet. Also he started complaining about the friends I was hanging out with, because I know them from my rowing association (I met my ex there too, but he suddenly started hating the place in the course of our relationship and now always complains a lot whenever I do anything that has to do with the rowing association). I thought that was quite hypocritical, since he knows all his friends from there too, including the one he was with, but I didn't say that. I just don't know how to deal with him when he thinks I'm doing something wrong or hanging out with the wrong people. I want to do things right in his eyes, to reduce the risk of him deciding to leave me again.

Any advice on this?

Me too!  

I know how you feel when you want to do “right in their eyes” but I strongly feel like this is impossible. We can’t always please people and hold their opinion of us above our own. It’s difficult but you need to make yourself a priority.

I can sense you have a lot of anxiety and I mean that with the uttermost respect because I did too when me and my pwBPD were together. I would over analyze every little text or detail or moment we had. “Did I do this right?” “Omg if I don’t do this or say this then they will leave me” “if I don’t say goodmorning then she won’t talk to me”. And your mind gets in this state of “fog”. At times our anxiety starts to cause problems when there isn’t any to begin with. We focus too much on minor or nonexistent things that we end up causing what we are most afraid of.


He iniated to get Ice cream and you guys cuddled and had an intimate moment together. This is amazing news! I think him giving you his keys to his place is a huge step forward for your relationship.


Where you stated, “he replied only after 3 hours”. I can sense how anxious you are because you are counting the hours it took for a reply back. I know how you feel because we’ve all been there. You guys were spending time with friends and shouldn’t be constantly on your phones when with other people. It is rude and he  most likely was not texting for that reason. I know you want to text him as much as possible but you also need to understand that space away from each other  is very critical to keeping a relationship alive. It allows the other person to miss you and that is the best gift that you can give someone. Doesn’t it feel amazing when someone misses you and wonders about you? This is something I am learning myself. We have a lot in common, Blooming. I strongly suggest you work on your anxiety. I’ve been seeing a therapist my uni offers for my anxiety and it is helping tremendously. Does your school have a therapist you can see and just talk to?

You shouldn’t stop being friends with people your partner doesn’t approve of. Unless it becomes a problem as in intimacy or cheating. Or they promote unsafe and detrimental lifestyles. People in a relationship don’t have to have the same friends or same lifestyles. A relationship is composed of two different people with 2 diferent goals, helping another achieve it.

I know you’re afraid he’s going to cheat on you or leave you and I strongly believe you need to work on these fears because it will only push him away in the long run.

I’m sorry if I was a little straight forward in this response.

Ah cool! I love studying it! What's the field that interests you most?


Yes that's definitely what's happening. My ex (should I still call him my ex? I don't know) has told me that multiple times, also during our relationship, that I create problems that didn't exist to begin with, because of my anxiety. I'm just so scared to do something wrong or that he things in a negative way of me that I kind of cause what I'm scared of to happen. It's a really annoying vicious circle. I really try to live in the moment now and to not think too much about him and why he doesn't contact me as much or why he does certain things or what he means by certain things, but it's just hard. I have the tendency to overanalyse everything, especially when it comes to this relationship. At least, when we were still together, I knew that he loved me and wanted to be me because he told me all the time and he made me feel safe and secure. Now there is non of that security, which makes me scared that he could leave me at any moment if I just make one misstep or say one thing too many. And the hardest part is that at the moment I can't ask him to give me that security because I would pressure him too much and he doesn't know what he wants.


Yes, I thought so too! All very good moments! The fact that he trusts me like that is a very good sign I think.



You're right, we shouldn't constantly be on our phones. It's just that there's such a contrast with what our relationship used to be like and it's hard that he seems so much less interested in me now. But you are right, missing someone is very important. I'm really curious to see if he will miss me in the coming week, when he's in holiday. He probably won't tell me though, because he hasn't really said anything like that to me yet in this current recycle, he hasn't given me a single compliment yet. It just feels like he isn't very interested in me and what I'm doing.

I am seeing a therapist, but it's not really for my anxiety, but for my lack of confidence and my negative mindset when it comes to thinking of myself. I'm seeing my therapist again this Tuesday, I'll discuss the anxiety with her.


No I will definitely not stop being friends with them because he'd like that! There is nothing wrong with those people, the only reason he dislikes them is because I know them from the rowing association he despises so much (even though he has had 3 amazing years there). It is annoying though, that I can't spend time with my friends without him complaining about it and making snide remarks and ruining part of my enjoyment.

You are right, I definitely need to work on those fears. I do have to say that I didn't have them when we were first together, because he didn't give me a reason to think those thoughts. He was very affectionate and I could tell him anything and he would always react very nicely, saying he'd always be there for me and that he loved me. There's none of that secureness now, it's all so fragile.

He is now on holiday as of yesterday evening. The last contact we had was at around 7 p.m. last night. After that I messaged him good night and that I hoped he had arrived safely, but he hasn't read that or replied to it, even though he has been online on facebook (it's now 09:30 a.m.). I just find it so confronting that he doesn't have the need to contact me to tell me that he has arrived and to wish me good night. It's so different from what our relationship used to be like. It's clear evidence that I don't mean as much to him as I used to and that I'm not on his mind that much. It sucks. I'm also pretty sure he hasn't told any of his friends, nor his family, that we're dating again, which is also kinda hard.

(I'm using this thread as some sort of diary now I guess haha)

Hi,

for me, it doesnt mean anything.

I do that too, and really, I don't know what he is doing/thinking.

If i can make no assumptions, not make up a story.  When i make up a story, my mind goes into crazy making.  Because that story influences my attitude, and now, based on this story, I act a certain way. 

If i can resist, and just stick w facts.  Like, he called thursday.  We talked, it was interesting to me, and he shared what is going on in his life, I shared what is going on in my life.  We made plans to have coffee thursday at 8:15pm at our usual place.

Leave it at that, I stop my stories. 

I have to journal sometimes and write down what happened.  Not my story ABOUT what happened.
Just what happened.  I can be free from my stories.

Hang in there!

j

You're right, I need to stop filling in what he's thinking. The problem is that I know him pretty well by now so when I analyse his behaviour or the way he messages me, most of the time it's right. It's just clearly so different, the way we communicate now and the way we used to. I wished him good night again last night and he didn't even wish good night back, just talked about something else.

I'll try to stick to the facts more and not let my mind wander as much, creating problems that might not even exist. His response to me wishing him a good night was that he was ill, so he probably just wasn't thinking clearly.

I just really can't handle all this uncertainty, I wish I could just look inside his head and find out what he's thinking so that I'd know what I can expect. Because if it won't work between us again, I'd rather know now than later.

Neat catches juju2-- thank you for sharing. Sometimes our minds drift and we get carried away with our own thoughts. When we get stuck in the drift--tangled--that's when we risk ruminating a bit much. And yes, I do share your thinking that consciously returning to the facts can help us in these situations.

i get that.

I want to know too.

really, it is about me and what I want.

If i can let go.  of my agenda, how it has to be, why is this, that, happening, instead of x,y,z.?  Again, when i allow those destructive thoughts that no one can prove, I go into crazy, someone i dont know.  My attitude is my compass, and i have to check my attitude... .it is a daily, hourly, minute by minute sometimes, task... .

My attitude determines so much: outlook, actions, plans, who I am being.  Only I can control my attitude.  I am not making myself wrong, am just noticing, what is my attitude now.  I get quiet, close my eyes, breathe.  What is going on with me.

If i go into crazy thinking about what he may be thinking or doing, I'm confused and can't be present in my own life.

It's a skill I am learning.   Not making assumptions.doing the next right thing.

Bad thoughts and bad feelings will pass, if i don't dwell or wallow in them... .if I can look forward to something I enjoy, self care, getting my hair done, something anything.

I go to al anon, am recovering co dependent.

a lot of what i am going thru is a prison I created.

things get better.  

j

mental health . Pursuing pharmacy and hopefully research medications that include mental health in the future or in a hospital setting.


This is the worst. you see something, and then you wonder and think of a million diff things and you spiral. then you feel like poop. not the best thing. Focus on whats in front of you and keep taking deep breathes. i know its difficult. it causes physical pain in your chest.


Ive been through this. I would text my ex, "goodnight my love" or goodmorning and id get "night" or "morning" or instead of a goodmorning back, id get her complaining about traffic and how people at our school cant drive and etc and in a crisis mode. and in my mind my anxiety is going haywire because shes in crisis mode. it feels terrible feeling invalidated. Im not sure if the pwBPD does it on purpose or what.