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So it's going to be my wife's birthday on Monday.

Since a few gifts that I bought for her recently such as clothes and jewellery were met a lukewarm reaction at best, I decided to ask her what she would like as a gift.

She said that she wanted various small-ish things and that she wanted to pick them out herself but for me to pay for them.  Great. Let's go this morning, I said.

On the store we had to swing by her sister's place to borrow her discount retailer membership card and while I waited for her to pick up the card I started thinking about our current financial situation which is a little tight and that will need some juggling between cards until our cash flow gets a little better, particularly as we anticipate a house-move soon that will put us more into debt.

As we enter the shopping mall she starts mentioning all the stops we're going to make to pick up the things she wants as her gift and then I (TRIGGER!) ask how many purchases we're likely to make.  A little dumb, I admit.

Then the passive aggression tirade began: "If that's your attitude and if you're going to be counting, I don't want anything for my birthday."

I persuaded her to go into the store and, all the while giving me the silent treatment, she picks out the first item that she wants. As we go to pay, the membership card gets rejected as it's out of date and we leave empty handed.

"There, you got what you wanted!" she snapped at me.
"Not at all. Now, let's go and get the other things you wanted," I reply.
"No, we're going home, as you obviously begrudge paying for things for me. I don't want you to get me anything for my birthday now."

Then more silence in the car on the way home, until she starts saying to our 4 year old son in the back of the car that we're not going to invite his cousin for a play date today because ":)addy doesn't want to have him over". (I had said that morning that after often having her nephew for playdates, I think it's a pity that her brother never reciprocates the favor.) 

I said that would rather she spoke to me directly and in a non passive aggressive way.  She then started talking again about me not wanting to buy her presents and saying how mean I am. And how she doesn't want anything from me. Tears and shouting.

At the following set of traffic lights, without saying anything, I unbuckled and got out of the car. She drove off home.

Now I don't know what to do for her birthday.

Wow, Dragon72, do I know this dance all too well. I am really sorry.

When you talk about juggling between cards trying to get by until more cash flow is available, it sounds like you have a really solid idea of what is owed on which card, how much is in each account, things like that, right?

I think it's completely reasonable to have a "budgetary" number in mind, by the way - everyone wishes money grew on trees, but the reality is we always have conflicting priorities. It's probably not a smart idea to use the rent money to pay for birthday gifts!

I think when you're in a shared financial situation, it's also a completely reasonable to discuss this number with your spouse. Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't, but when we could talk days or weeks ahead of time and I could start to set expectations, things went much better than if I asked her a couple days before. So, maybe your timing was off. Were there any discussions last week or last month about finances being tight?

These were always really tricky situations for me, too, and most times I just made up for it by spending way too much. Not a good idea. This doesn't help in this situation, but the way it got easier for me was to make sure I communicated how much was available way ahead of time, to set proper expectations. I wouldn't say this solved all the conflicts, but they did decrease.

   

Sorry dude!  My finances got all messed up trying to "make he happy".

There are times when you should just "take someone at their word."  I would have taken her home at this point, what she said was very disrespectful.

I made up a "boundary/rule" that my wallet doesn't open unless there is kindness and respect.  There is a thread on here... about a year ago... .where I "abandoned" my wife at church dinner night with "no money to feed herself or the kids" (to hear her tell it).

Truth of the matter is she was "demanding" money... ."telling" met hat I had to and she was counting on embarrassment to get me to do it.  Nope!

Today our finances are separate and she sometimes comes to me in a very pleasant way to ask for things. 

It can get better.

Thoughts?

FF

I don't think it's about money this time.

Whenever I have tried to be open and discuss our finances in a collaborative and transparent way,  she has refused to engage and accused me of stealing money from the family.  Projection maybe.  She is prone to making some wild and baseless accusations.  Like last month when she accused me of spying on her through her webcams. And being in a romantic relationship with her sister in law to whom I rarely speak with whom and have nothing in common.

But anyway those are separate issues.

As I said, I don't think this latest tantrum was about money at all. 

It was about her not feeling she's worth anything, and so me adding up the total of what she might be worth (in terms of a birthday present) was too much to bear. 

I keep reminding myself she's just a 3 year old girl in a 49 year old's body.  She's more immature than our 4 year old son in some ways.

FF do you really think that what she said was disrespectful?  I came out of it feeling 100% like I was the bad guy. Such is the way she can get under my skin.

I think there are many ways she disrespects me, or at least exploits of my generosity of spirit. But I don't see it as much as an outsider might.

I really don't know what to do about her birthday now.  I don't want to "punish" her, but I don't want to reward her bad behaviour either.

Hey... .I'm glad you are looking at the "insider and outsider" view.

The critical thing for you, is that you make changes that are obvious to the outsider AND the insider.  So... perhaps a "validation" of making positive changes is your wife NOT liking it and trying to push you back to old behaviors.

At least this is something you need to be ready for and not be shocked when it happens.

Listen... .there is also a "mindset shift"... .I detect lots of effort being put into figuring out why your wife throws tantrums.  Instead of doing that... .have a "shift" to "tantrums don't work for me".  

Whatever the issue is... .(which you aren't going to put much energy into)... .will be abandoned  (or paused) until the tantrum is resolved.

Do you see the mindset shift there?

So... ."disrespect" works as a word, I suppose there could be others.  It is certainly "argumentative".  It is certainly "manipulative".  

I'm 100% certain that those type of statements are "toxic" to your relationship and to YOUR feelings.

Basically... .you should assume the stance that this is how I'm going to "treat" my wife or "bless" her for her birthday.  If she can be accepting of that and enjoy who I am and how I am trying to bless her... .then great we'll do that.

If she is going to be a jerk about it... .I'm going to go bless myself an not be part of that.

Seriously... .we teach our children to be appreciative of what people give to us.  A birthday is not a time to "negotiate" a gift... ."Ok... if you give me (blank) then I will be happy and not chew your ass off ... well... .until I want something else at which point I will threaten to chew your ass off again and you will please me... .or else... "      

Do I kinda have it right here?

Last:  Be different for her birthday.  Get her a card, be deliberate about some "acts of service" for her... .perhaps a nice meal.  Let that be it.

Seriously... .let that be it.

Don't get involved in debates about what you should have done... could have done... .

"But why didn't you buy me two rings, three necklaces a watch and a tongue stud?"  ... ."Well baby... .that didn't work for me this year."  pause... .(let her freak out... .don't join her).

FF

Really the more I think about this, the more I'm seeing how narcissistic she has been.

I think it was very selfish and entitled for her to have asked to pick out her own birthday presents.
I think it was very selfish and entitled for her to expect me not to care about the costs.
I think it was very rude then to reject my repeated offer to buy her what she wanted even after her rant about me "counting the costs". 
And then to use our son as a pawn by saying she would deny him what he wanted (the playdate) because Daddy doesn't want to have his cousin over (a total lie, I just said it would be nice for the playdate to be the other way round for once), just because she was angry with me - that was low.

I'm frustrated with myself now for having actually bought her a present now, and one that I know she will like. I gave it to her this morning just as I was leaving for work and she hasn't acknowledged at all.

I've got to recognize sooner when she's stepping out of line and abusing my love.

The trouble is, calling BS on her behavior is futile.  I need to put proper boundaries in place.  One of which should have been to follow the advice above and not have caved in on the present issue. 

But I'm trying not to beat myself up about mishandling this episode though. 

She just texted me: "Thanks for the present. I hope you're going to buy a cake for later".

Can I just say that I agree with all FormFlier has written and I'm really glad to see your approach to this, but getting out at a stoplight is A BALLER MOVE.

I say let the cake be it. (Because that is pretty standard.) But no more guilt trips. If she wants to start something on her birthday, don't engage.

Hi Dragon,

The experience you first posted about sounds so frustrating. For a long time I would beg my uBPDw whenever she engaged in similar crazy-making activities. I'd beg her to reconsider and encourage her to do what she originally wanted to do because I thought it would somehow fix the situation and make her not mad anymore, etc. I've gotten better about it and I've found a lot more satisfaction with my life as I let her own the consequences of her choices. Now whenever she goes back on doing what she originally said she wanted, and tries to blame me for it, I put the consequences back on her by saying something like, "Well, I thought you wanted to do that and you still can if you want."

Setting these kinds of boundaries has been the hardest for me to do, and sometimes I'm not as effective as I'd like to be. I just try to not beat myself up if I ever come up short, remembering how far I've come in identifying and working with these non-normal behaviors.

Best of luck going forward. I'll check back for updates--just know that there's at least one more person listening to your story and rooting for you.

-LL

Hello Dragon72,

I like what formflier has written,

Basically... .you should assume the stance that this is how I'm going to "treat" my wife or "bless" her for her birthday.  If she can be accepting of that and enjoy who I am and how I am trying to bless her... .then great we'll do that.

If she is going to be a jerk about it... .I'm going to go bless myself an not be part of that.

I can certainly relate to your post here, for many years I have had this same struggle with my own u/BPDw... .never the right present, never enough, never the right attitude (her/perceived of me), on and on and on, as a matter of fact, I have become very much conditioned to dread ALL holidaze (pun intended)... .whichever it is, that involves "gift giving"... .her birthday, our anniversary, Christmas is most times a nightmare... .yes, I can definitely concur !

... .boy oh boy do I have some war stories to tell !

This has frustrated me, and perplexed me to no end for many years now, until I began to not "rescue her" anymore, like leaving a screaming toddler in the middle of the grocery store aisle who is throwing a temper tantrum... .

I think I am a pretty easy going guy, and I love what ever I may get as a present (insert humility here), I am not picky, or "contrite" where this is concerned, .live and let live I say!;... .and I certainly don't order others (her) around as to how I want it to be, again, I am pretty laid back, and carefree minded, .but to the contrary; we've even gotten into fights because I said, when she may ask me what I want for Christmas in August... ."its not that big of a deal to me babe, I just want to spend some time with you"... .BOOM!, .she gets MAD because I won't tell her "what I want" for fill in ____... .as I really don't need anything, and why all the fuss anyways, .but & so when it's my turn to "gift"... .the exact opposite happens, .as in I'd better get it just right (read her mind), the correct and perfect gift, held to high standard, and $$... .or its woe be tide to me!

Yes, absolutely dread... .with a capital ":)".

Don't get me wrong, I do love to gift her, and try to make her feel special, but how many times has my gift been "slighted", and thrown back into my face, and then she starts running her mouth about how I am this, and that, and the other thing... .ah' yes, she used to really get under my skin good, .but not to much anymore, as you wrote, about your wife being a three year old in a forty nine year olds body... .this is indeed true, mine acts like a petulant teenager most times... .and thusly resultant in... .I feel like a parent more than a husband at times... .

This last valentines day was particularly  red-flag"messy" red-flag... .to say the least.

Nowadays, my best tactic is to just ignore, and not engage, and leave the area to her and her "bad attitude".

To quote formflier, "If she is going to be a jerk about it... .I'm going to go bless myself an not be part of that".

Hang in there Dragon72,

Red5

I am really questioning what the point of it all is. The marriage, that is.

Ok, so she looks after our son while he is not at school and while I am at work.  She does most of the housework.

But she leaves me to do more than my fair share of housework in evenings and weekends, including cooking, cleaning and ironing (all the stuff that she doesn't want to).  I am the first to agree that being a SAHM is no picnic, but boy does she complain about always working so hard. She's a SAHM in a tiny 2 bedroom house, with a kid in school 5 hours a day.

But housework and childcare is not what a marriage should be about.  It should be about mutual emotional support and intimacy - both spiritual and physical.  She doesn't get close enough for any of that to happen.  She goes to bed at the same time as our son, so she doesn't spend quality time with me alone, and she sleeps with our son in his bed, not with me.

So I don't think I really have a wife at all.

The good times are just when she's not throwing tantrums.  The absence of bad doesn't necessarily mean it's any good.

I've actually felt more lonely since I've been married than I ever did as a singleton.

You definitely have several different dysfunctional things going on in your marriage. 

I would not attempt to fix them all at once... .perhaps... "address" is a better term than fix.

The present thing and what you give her to spend is easy... .because you just don't do it unless she does what you want.  Yeah... she will freak out... .but your part is straightforward.

OK... so let's clarify.  You did get her a present... right?  What did you get her?

Did you get her a cake?


If those things have happened... they are water under the bridge... we may advise a little bit of talking about it now... .but the big change will be next time she wants something. 

I'll wrap this up by saying your eyes are opening to  the dysfunction in your marriage... .you will feel lots of stuff... .tell us here. 

DO NOT tell your wife about it... .yet... .until we chat here.  Oh... .don't worry, there will be a time, place and method to "tell" her... .but it needs to be tied to action (or in some cases inaction) on your part.

consistency is critical!

Last... .did she thank you for your birthday present?  Did she thank you for anything else you did for the birthday... .or in anyway "acknowledge" it.


FF

I did get her a cake.

And the gift I got her was some expensive face cream that really was beyond my budget, but the only thing I could find after a long time looking that I knew she would really like. I really shouldn't have gotten something so expensive for her though.  She only said thanks for the gift after being prompted via text message by me saying "Happy Birthday". That was a few hours after she received it. And no mention was made of it at all since.

Yesterday evening when I got home we had the cake, during which we made our son the focus of our attention. Then as we were getting our son ready for bed, she gave me an empty box of medicine she has been taking for a small complaint and asked me to go to the pharmacy, exactly 1 block from our house, to get more.  She could have quite easily gone herself, and I was mad at myself for agreeing to do it, but did it anyway.

So I went to the pharmacy.  But the pharmacy didn't have any of that medicine in stock, so I went straight back home empty-handed and explained that that was the situation.  My wife said that they would definitely have it in stock in the other pharmacy a mile and a half away.  "Great," I said, "then you can go quickly in the car".

And so, with a lot of grumbling about how much I was putting her out and how selfish I was, she went to the other pharmacy, while I got our son's teeth brushed, into pajamas and stories read.  45 minutes later she came back and with minimal communciation to me, went to bed at 7.30pm with our 4 year old son. On her birthday. Like a rock star.

After being a little bit ashamed of myself for agreeing to go to the nearby pharmacy earlier, I ended up being quite proud of myself for not agreeing to go to the other one.

I think i am making progress as I gain understanding of the issues with both her and me.  But they are baby steps.  But towards what?  I don't think that by enforcing my boundaries I will change her behavior to the extent that we become a neurotypical interdependent couple.  I think that's a fantasy.  

But I think that I may be moving towards my own emancipation - whatever that means.

Hmm... .

I think big picture you are turning a corner.


When she asks you to do things does she actually ask or does she tell you?  Important to be clear.

Buying stuff beyond budget... .no good.  I get the impression you are doing somewhat better on this ... .but there is still a "need" for some reason to bust a budget.  What do you think is going on there with you?

Are you mad that you chose to go or are you mad that when you do things for her she does not seem appreciative?  I get it that it could be a mix of both.

If you read lots of posts and "lessons" around here you will see that "consistency" is critical.  Perhaps said another way... .that whatever message you are sending to her is clear and consistent.

I say this because... .on her birthday especially... .saying you will do something for your wife and then "telling her to do it later"... .would be confusing to anyone... I think.  What do you think?

It would have been better to make it about you.  "Bummer babe... .they were out.  I'll sniff around some other places tomorrow if you would like."

blah blah blah... .need it tonight... .the world will end without cream... blah blah blah

"Oh... goodness... .going out to get it tonight doesn't work for me.  I'll be happy to look for it tomorrow."

As a practicality, in the future... .ask her to call first... or you call first... .or just say it doesn't work for you tonight... but you would do it later.

Let her connect the dots.

Last:  To be clear, her bedtime routine was the same as always... right?

Again... .I applaud you for taking a stand.  I will shout from the rooftops with consistency.

I would also challenge you to sort through a big picture view.  What are you really pissed about.  I have a theory... .but I'll wait on your response.

Is it really about face cream or even budgets?

FF

Yeah, the bedtime routine was the same as always.  I've tried to get her to sleep in my, "our", bedroom on numerous occasions but a night or two later she's back in his bed.  For a while the excuse was the mattress. So i bought a whole new king size bed and mattress that she herself picked out.  After one night she was back with him.  She's not going to stop sleeping with him any time soon.

So if she usually sleeps there why did I mention it this time?  Well that can be answered to your final question which was "What am I mad about?"

I'm mad because it feels like she shows me contempt rather than love. 

I'm mad because so much of my life is about her and and so little of hers is about me. 

I'm also mad because I wanted our marriage to be about helping each other to fulfill our potential and not be in a perpetual state of either war or cease-fire. What a waste of both of our lives!

I'm mad because our son is being formed and shaped amid this dysfunctional madness and it will have lasting or permanent psychological consequences.  He deserved a better start.

   

Is there also a piece in there about her choosing him over you?  Marriage "is supposed to be" the primary relationship.  Happy marriages tend to produce happy children.  If you flip it and focus on having a happy child... .it usually doesn't work... .as you have seen.

And... .this is working for her... .and not for you.  So... rather quickly here... .you need to let her know this... .and then take action.  

If you want a wife that sleeps with your in your bed after the kid goes to bed... .you need to go do that.  Invite her along... .let her decide if she is going to be that wife.

She may decide that she is a mother that will sleep with her child... .and then you kinda are in an entirely different world... .because any doctor or T or even "regular people" get that it is not healthy for the child (or the mother)... .(or you for that matter)

You job is to shine the light.

It will take a while.

The longer you "allow" this " enable" or "don't challenge"... .the harder this will be to change.

My remembrance of your story is that you have had counselors tell you this is bad and both of you walked away... .I would advise you to "walk back" and see what you can do.

I'm not going to suggest that any of this will be fun... .I'm not going to suggest your marriage will survive.

But I am going to suggest that dealing with the issue you are mad about, will help you move forward in your life.

FF

I really don't think she's choosing our son over me.   That would imply that she's running TO him.  I think it's more of a case of running AWAY from us.  I think she just can't deal with everything that goes with a proper adult relationship: intimacy, sharing, vulnerability, cooperating, trusting, inter-dependance.  That would require object constancy - seeing the ugly and the beautiful in both me and her - and being okay with that.

I'm not sure that I really want her to choose me over him. She doesn't have the skills to handle being in a relationship with an adult.

I'm angry because I don't have someone who I can love and can love me too.  I'm angry because I'm stuck in a marriage with a woman-child.

 

Does she have the skills to be a parent?  Does she have the skills to put her child's needs ahead of hers?

I'm really sorry that you are facing difficult decisions.     

I'm struck by your comment that you are "stuck" in a marriage.  Can you help me understand that more?

FF

Does she have the skills to be a parent?  In many ways yes. In some ways no.  I disagree with many of her opinions when it comes to how to parent our son and I consider some of what she does to be detrimental to him in his development as a human being. But hey, parenting is not a science, is it. And she has never done anything that made me fear for his safety.

I feel stuck because I still think the damage I would do to my wife and son by splitting the family up would be worse than the damage being done in the current situation.  I know my son is being exposed to a very dysfunctional model of what adult relationships should be like.  But equally, as a child, he needs a father figure to be a full-time part of his life. But he also needs his mom too.  I don't want to turn either of us into a part-time parent.

Again... .part of bpdfamily is frankness.

I think you should go to a T and ask for their professional opinion

Perhaps get two.  Perhaps ask your wife along.

Here is the thing... .if a child is NOT allowed to individuate from a parent, especially a Mom... .that is not good.  Sleeping alone is a basic skill kids need to learn.

Much different if the kid was sleeping with a sibling or sharing a room with a sibling.

I would think that you showing a strong... good healthy role model house and a Mom that is under a court order to go to T and court ordered parenting guidelines... .and court ordered T for the kid... .would be "healthier" that allowing her to have her kid provide her emotional support and substitute husband.

Now... .if she left his room and his bedtime routine was normal.  I would have a different opinion.

But... .full time co sleeping and showing that to a kid... mom sleeps with boy kid and dad sleeps alone.  That's no good.

It's just not.

 

Sorry man...   I think if you push it, she may move out of bedroom.  She may not move into your bedroom... but that's almost a separate deal.  You are a parent... .you get a vote on how your kids is raised.  Frankly with stuff like this... you have a veto... .and the veto would win over her "wanting" to do this.  Because I think medical professionals would agree this is harming the child.

She is not going to like this.  But it won't change unless you push it.  Ball is in your court.


FF

I agree that it's a serious matter that she has, and continues to, sleep with our son.

Today I spoke to the child psychologist who works in our son's school. She agrees 100% that it's not at all healthy.  She is going to have a meeting with my wife and me in April to discuss the issue.  But so did the previous child psychologist a year ago and my wife didn't heed her advice either.

I could try to recruit my wife's family to talk to her.  I know she respects and trusts them more than me.

This whole issue is something I keep repeating to her. Often I raise it when she's going to bed with the little one. But she keeps doing it.

Obviously I can't physically stop her from doing it.  And she point blank refuses to entertain the idea of therapy as, in her mind, she's not the one with the problem. 

So it seems it will have to come down to ultimatums.  But what?

First of all... solid work for taking action and moving this issue forward.

Your wife didn't listen to the first psychologist.  When you went back to that psychologist with your wife and asked what she recommends if your wife refuses... .what did the P say?  Same question if you went back by yourself.

We'll have questions ready for the upcoming meeting, but want to completely understand what has happened up to this point.


Bad idea... .IMO.  Let this be about you, your wife and health care providers.


What does she say... .what do you say... ? 

I'm trying to get this dynamic.

When you ask her plan... what does she say?

Has she expressed how long this will go on?


I'm not suggesting you do this now... but... why not?  If she is harming your son?

I get it... that was a provocative answer... .but... .I would assume that with enough oversight this can physically be stopped. 


Keep moving forward on this.  In the presence of your wife at the meeting with P... .I would ask the P for suggestions... .and I would ask your wife point blank if she is going to stop.

Then... if she says no.  Ask the P if this is a serious enough matter to pursue legal options.

Let your wife be the one that figures out how far it goes... no you. 

Medical professionals have determined this needs to stop.  You will stop it... one way or another... through legal and ethical means.  (if this is not clear in your head... .I would hesitate for you to go forward)

Thoughts?  I'll wait for answers to some of my questions.

FF

April seems like a long time.  Did you ask the P why so long?

FF

I'll get to your questions soon, but first I want to address what happened this evening.

Rewind to Friday when we went to our son's school for a PTA meeting.  The teachers identified and agreed with me that he needs more boundaries at home. My wife tends to give in to him when he has the slightest tantrum and she often, literally, spoon feeds him. I on the other hand want him to learn that there are things he needs to do whether he likes it or not and he can't always get his way. She agreed at the PTA meeting to try to apply firmer boundaries.

So this evening, I asked my son as he was getting ready for bed to put his toy down and put on his pajamas, which he is perfectly capable of doing. He didn't, so I told him that if he didn't, I would take the toy away until he did so.   He refused, and so I took his toy away.  He continued to refuse to put his pajamas on, all the while demanding his toy back.  I refused to back down. 

My wife was getting distraught because he was now crying and asked me to give him his toy. I said no, we need to set boundaries to encourage better behavior.

She then turned to me, gives me a look that would melt plastic and said, "So who sets YOUR boundaries then?"
"?", I replied.
" Yes, who sets your boundaries? Because you don't obey me when I ask you to do things!"
I replied that I spend a lot of my time doing things at her request and almost never ask her to do things for me.
"I do lots for you, but you are always ignoring what I ask you to do," she said.
I call BS. I am the most "obedient" hubby in the land.   
"This argument is going nowhere," I said, "Good night".
She carried on. " You're not going to answer my question? Who sets your boundaries?"
I said, "Well if you're asking who limits my behavior, I'd say it's my own conscience, my bosses at work, the government, but mostly you. Now good night". I walked away. She carried on but I refused to be drawn in.

I don't think she's capable of helping me set boundaries with our son.   As soon as he puts up a fight, she can't handle the distress of seeing him throw a tantrum, so she either capitulates, reinforcing his bad behaviour, or attacks me for challenging it.

I'm inching ever closer to realising that this marriage needs to end, and soon.  She's a terrible wife and an awful mother.

April because the the psych wants to obseve and chat to our son over the next couple of of weeks, then it's spring break until the beginning of April when the next semester begins.

Was your wife part of this?  


Can you expand on this?  This is potentially a good opening.  :)id she give any specifics... .did you ask for specifics?


Good!  :)ude! Yes!   |iiii   This is it... keep it up.


OK... .this is predictable... .she realizes she was "loosing" and changes the argument.  It's about the "argument"... .it's about "control"... .it's about a lot of things.  Mostly her emotional inability to regulate.  So she went "external" to fight with you... .rather than internal to deal with her discomfort.

Here is the thing... .wear this as a badge of honor!  It is an indication that YOU are on the right course.


Is this the first time this has happened?  She "got you" here... but it's totally understandable.  This is where "mindset" matters.

One mindset is to "agree" when you can.

Also... deal with her language as she uses it... .THEN consider shifting it.

"You are right honey... .I agree I don't obey you."

Don't fix this for her... .NO EXPLANATIONS... .let her wrestle with this.

perhaps later.

"I set my boundaries."  pause  "I would like to discuss those with you and how we as parents set boundaries for our child."

short... simple succinct... .let her wrestle with the uncomfortable part.  





JADE alert... .she has not shifted the subject to something she can "win"... .

Frankly... .you went along with it.

 

Cause... this helps boundaries with your son how?  :)ude... we've all been there... . 

This is what she likes to do... .devalue you... .you try to "value" yourself... .and she disagrees.  She has way more practice at this than you... and she will win  

Best thing you can do is imagine she is trying to convince you that her purple unicorn is better than your red elephant.

"Oh my... .I need to get back to our sons boundaries.  I'll be able to talk about other matters later."


Solid... .you realize you are in a loosing fight... argument.  


She doesn't want this to end... .so she pushes... .she is "getting something from this"


Huge WIN for you!  For the relationship... .for your son.

OK... of course I will tweak this... .but you did good here.

Way too many words in your answer... .way too many.  Keep it simple... .adults set their own boundaries.

Nothing needs to be added, especially when she is worked up.  In a more relaxed discussion... .you can expand.

"I set my boundaries."

Listen... this is not about "your boundaries".  It's likely she is grasping adult issues... .finds them uncomfortable and is "using" the boundary thing to deflect it.

Do you see that?


Ladies... please give FF some room here.  

This is why (IMO) males were traditionally more "discipline" and females traditionally more "nurture".

Usually... .the female will help the male be more "nurturing" and the male will help the female be more "firm".

BPD puts that stuff on steroids.


Whoa Tex... .slow down a bit.

I certainly don't want to assure you this will never happen or "need to happen" (ending the marriage)... .but there are many alternatives that (IMO) need to be thoroughly and firmly explored before "ending the marriage".

OK... and we are back to mindset.  :)ude... I get it this stuff is hard.

I'm certain she understands that she is a awful mother and wife.  I'm sure there is shame there.  I would doubt she can verbalize this.  

I can't imagine it being helpful for "you to give her this vibe."

Much better to "give her the vibe" that "boundaries are hard... .I'm sure you will work through this" (or I'm confident you will... .)

Let's take a "less threatening" analogy.  I know you don't want to "parent" her... but you have no choice.  You just don't.

Getting kids to jump off the high dive can be scary.

"You suck... you are horrible... .you'll never jump" has about how much chance of helping?

Right... .can you use that point of view to "see" and "understand" the message you need to send her.  I know she appears to be an adult, but she is not (at least on some emotional levels).

How would you get your wife to "jump off the highdive"?

You are doing good work here... I do think you have "turned a corner"... .perhaps even on a road you have never traveled before.     |iiii  


FF

Well, bat-s#!t's back.

On the 15th I got paid and the account was down to fumes because the past 6 two-weekly salary payments had been light as I had been paying my wife's and son's health insurance in 6 instalments, taken directly from my paycheck. So when I got paid it was a relief. 

Normally I give my wife half my paycheck in cash and the rest goes on bills like gas, electricity, internet, credit card, school fees, big supermarket shops, all paid by me.  If there's any left over from "my" half, and we're talking less than $50 or so, it goes on unexpected family expenses.  I also give a private lesson on a Saturday which gives me about $40 or so, but I usually spend that on the weekly groceries in the market which my wife usually expects me to do while she's in church on Sundays.

Every time I get paid on the 15th of the month, it's on the same day that the car payment goes out, and that's just over half of what's paid in, so I had to use up those "fumes" left in the bank in order to pay my wife her usual sum.  That left me with $0.00 for the next two weeks until the next payday, with my wife holding all the family dough, every penny.  What's more, my private lesson client is away this week, so I didn't have the $40 to make the purchases in the market.

So, this morning I asked my wife for $25 so that I could go to the market.
"I'll lend you $50 and you can pay me back when you next get paid" she replied.
"No, that's not how it works, you can give me some of the money I gave you, so that I can make the family purchases in the market," I answered.

And there followed a huge argument in which she was making out like I was really mean for denying her money that she needs for legitimate purchases and that I wasn't being truthful about how much money I had. Whenever I tried to explain the basic math behind it, she cut me off saying that I wasn't letting her speak. She demanded to see my salary receipts, but I refused, saying, "I earn $X, and if you don't believe me or think that I am lying to you about that then you have an issue with trust." 

She then brought up the idea of divorce, suggesting it's something I have wanted for a long time, she said that I refused before to have us go to a marriage counsellor, so obviously I don't want to be married to her and said I now should to rent an apartment for her to live in.  I said I couldn't because all my money goes to her and paying the family expenses.

She then carried on nonsensically painting me out as the bad guy, which really pushed my buttons and then I lost control of my language and said a few "f.u.'s" and left the house.  I shouldnn't have done that. The f.u.'s, that is, not the walking away.

"Oh go on then, as always," she shouted after me, "run away, like a coward!"

She wasn't wrong though, I don't want to be married to her.  That's because she treats her husband like a roommate with an ATM card.  And no, I don't want to see a marriage counsellor.  Because that will end up with her manipulating the argument, just like today where I was made out to be the villain for asking for a bit of the money that I earned for the family.

I was so tempted to say, that's it, I've had enough now, you'll be hearing from my lawyer.

It's a long weekend, Monday's a public holiday here, and in a week's time I have 2 weeks off work for Spring Break.  I hate being at home! That's a really sad thing to say. And work's not going very well at the moment either. I'm really not enjoying being me at the moment.

What does she spend "her" money on?

Do I understand it correctly that you earn all the income?

What happens if you keep the money in your own account and she asks (politely)... .for when she has a need... .or want?

I understand dude... .it took me a long time to get to the point where I thought "I didn't have to" give my wife money I earned.
 
Once I got to the place where her access to "my" money was conditioned upon respect... .things got better.  Although there were tons of times that she "demanded" money and I said no.  Yep... .she made scenes... .all kinds of crazy.  

I'm going to give you a very specific thought or idea... .

Never again hand her unrestricted cash... .certainly not half.

Seriously... .

FF

I did get drained financially but in fairness, I enjoyed it and had the resources to. The only boundary was that I stopped giving cash because it ended up being blasted on drugs and alcohol. I would often have surprise gifts, sometimes too much to the point where she tried to discourage me from it. At least in this part of the relationship I think i succeeded early on that money was not something she had to feel that she was "controlled" by. It was amusing the month I had split with her that she rapidly managed to get her first job for herself. she would try sometimes to politely ask for cash for x,y,z reasons but I said "its ok ill buy it for you" and i think she realised i wasnt stupid enough to give her cash for her addictions. the three birthdays i always gave her cash, along with a few small trinkets and yes it was most likely spent on drugs, but i felt that it was the exception and she had her own choice and control to do what she liked. the theme of control cropped up alot in my mind during the relationship, i dealt with someone who on the one hand struggled to fend for herself and needed a caretaker. on the other hand, resentment would build up for relying on someone and feeling controlled financially. Its just another toxic antagonistic feature of a BPD relationship.

Cromwell

So sorry you are going thru this!

read your thread, I would listen to what others say, and digest.

I have to pause, or I will get sucked into something that i can't win.

This will get better, you can learn tools, and be surprised how much better things can get!

Hang in there

Oh yeah, and i try not to make any big decisions
When I am upset.  be this to yourself, make sure you have something to look forward to, good things!things you want to do.

It gets better from here.  
j

Thanks everyone for your input.

I liked your point about it ought to be contingent on respect.  I am getting NO respect from her at all.  As a father she brushes aside my opinions about what's best for our son, as a husband she makes no effort to be supportive, affectionate or even in the same room as me, and as a source of money, she has the temerity to ask me to pay her back when I've given her all my money and I need some to buy things to fill up the fridge. 

But I'm simply at a loss as to how to handle this issue about money which is obviously a trigger issue with her.

I understand and realise this is a mess that I myself have gotten myself into, even though the situation is being exacerbated by having to deal with someone who sees everything through a prism of paranoia and who is not able to process difficult situations logically without feeling compelled to fight dirty to protect herself. 

But, you're right, it's MY money that I earn, and I am the only source of income in the family, so I should get to decide how and where that money goes.

But how to make sure she gets her fair share?

As a SAHM, she obviously needs money for incidental family expenses: gas for her car, groceries she runs out of, an item of clothing for our boy etc.
She also needs money for her: for a haircut or a new bra or for a coffee with a friend, that sort of thing.

When I have suggested putting money straight into an account just for her, says she doesn't like bank accounts, prefers cash.  Besides, it doesn't make much of a difference, once it's hers, it's hers.

The question remains.  How much should I give her? Partly due to her mind-games, I have no idea anymore what's reasonable and what's not.

Dude... .big breath.

YOU don't worry about her money AT ALL.  ZIP ZERO NADA.

Boundaries.

Let her worry about her money.  Money is earned... .respect is earned. 

If she can't "connect the dots" that kindness and respect is a pathway to $$... .THAT IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM.  Stop solving things for other people.

Let her solve her own stuff. 

Seriously... there is a thread somewhere in history where I left my wife at church... with no money to feed her and the kids.  She was barking orders at me... telling me to give her money... .that it was my "Biblical" responsibility... etc etc. 

I let her know (which she knows before)... .that I don't do threats... .my wallet won't open.  It just won't.

I heard she told some whopper stories about me... .whatever.

My wife now kindly asks for money.  I usually give it to her.

My wife connected the dots.  She may unconnect them in the future... .that's her business.

Dude... big picture... .stop solving other peoples stuff.  ESPECIALLY your wife's stuff.

FF

She is an experienced manipulator and I usually fall for it. 

She has the ability to make me feel like I'm heartless and mean in every situation.  She can winkle into the cracks in my armor and have me believe that I am being a lousy husband and father whenever I try to stick to my principles.  I hate feeling like I'm an a-hole, especially when, really, the only rights I am trampling over are my own.  I am a good man and she makes me feel like an a-hole a lot.  Usually when I call her out for being an a-hole.

So now I have two weeks til payday, with only the $25 I convinced her to give me to go to the market, and I haven't been to the market yet.  She has all the rest.
 
And the second of those weeks I'm at home as work is shut.  It's going to be a loong two weeks.

Here's the big chink in your armor: YOU CARE WHAT SHE THINKS ABOUT YOU!

That will keep you trapped more than anything. I had to get past all the triggers I had (being called selfish, unkind, uncaring, thoughtless, self absorbed, unfair... .etc.)

Go back to the Inside and Outside observer point of view. I heard those criticisms which previously wounded me to the core and I asked myself if that is what an outsider to this situation would think.

OK, perhaps sometimes I'm too wrapped up in myself. Who isn't? But really, I know that I usually can be counted on to be a kind, fair person. And I sure as hell don't think that a pwBPD is a fair judge of character when they're dysregulating.

So I had to get over feeling bad about myself, just as a strategic measure. How can I be effective if I'm joining in the Cat Critical Party? Nope. He is welcome to his opinion and I'll certainly hear him out, as long as it's not abusive. Perhaps I'll even agree that I could have been more thoughtful, or whatever. But no longer do I feel bad about myself. Sure, there's always room for improvement and more awareness, but anyone who is trying to make me feel bad about myself has an agenda. And I'm not gonna help them in that regard.  *)

Agree with her and move on.

Once the "you are an a$$hole" thing doesn't work... .the dynamic will change.

Remember this... .remember how it feels to have her take YOUR money and shame you to get it back. 

No rules... .don't worry... .if she asks why... .tell her... ."That doesn't work for me... .I won't be doing that anymore... "

She will flip out... .life will go on.

Dude... she was jacking you up to not give back something you just gave to her... .remember that... .forever....

FF

So I'm home now. She and our son are not here.  She left her car key and all the cash I gave her on payday very deliberately out so I would see that she does not have those things.

I have no idea when she'll be back. Part of the mind games.

OK, weighing in here on the financials.

My DH is a financial advisor (after an Army Infantry career, so you'd think he would have figured out boundaries with his uNPD/BPD ex-wife, but no... .). Anyway, DH almost always advises a his/hers/ours arrangement for accounts. "Ours" is for household expenses. If her account is a personal allowance, then fine - that is what she manages for herself. If it isn't enough, she can get a job (gasp!).

Who pays the mortgage/rent and the utilities? You? Put the funding for those bills into the household/joint account, and take turns paying the bills. Then you both know 100% what it takes to run the household.

Do you have a budget based on accepted percentages of income for various expenses? Do you know what is typical for a family of 3 to spend on housing, utilities, food, clothing, transportation? Does SHE know and agree?

Only with a checking account will you be able to track your monthly financial activity. And see when she pulls $200 out of the account for unspecified expenses. Several couples we know have an agreement to tell the other when they spend more than $100... .no permission required, it's just the courtesy of informing the other and staying transparent about money.

You could establish some great boundaries just by instituting a budget with tracking capability. This handing over cash with no accounting mechanism is for the birds!

Take the cash that is laying out... and make sure it is deposited in your account.  Sure... .leave some in your pocket and perhaps a few bucks at the house for her.

How much are we talking?  100 or 200?

Perhaps leave her a note.

"Hey babe... .since this financial period is especially tight, I've placed x amount of cash in our account for safekeeping.  We're going to need to be proactive on our joint spending decisions."

Leave it at that.

FF

And... .if she doesn't want to be accountable to you... .she can also get a job.

Money you earn is accountable by YOUR VALUES.

Money she earns is accountable her HER VALUES.

Boundaries!

FF

Dragon72, you are working within a values framework that assumes she holds the same values. Primarily, you believe that marriage is a partnership and that you and your wife have a shared priority of Marriage and Family.

This does not appear to be the case right now.

So until you can see your wife demonstrate that the Marriage and Family are indeed a priority, you can shake off the DOG and put some boundaries in place.

Read "extinction burst" in preparation.

Well there's definitely some bursting going on.

Did I mention she left her wedding ring in the pile of cash along side the car keys?

I've left the house again now and I took all the money except for about $50.  If she needs more, she can ask me nicely and I'll think about it.

Did you leave a note?  What did it say?

I would make sure the note only talks about concern for cash left out and tight finances.

I'm assuming this is really odd... like this has never been left out before... right?

FF

No, I didn't leave a note.

It's not the first time that we have had an argument about money and she's ended up trying to hand back all of her cash in a dramatic sour grapes way.

It's the first time she has made an obvious gesture about the car by leaving the keys so evidently for me to take along with the money.  She is by far the main driver of the car and it was bought new at her request a year an a half ago and which is one of the reasons money has been so tight lately as the payments cost me over a quarter of my take-home pay every month.  She actually has a car of her own which now never gets driven as it is not as nice as the new one and is not, under the strict anti-pollution laws in this city, allowed to run on the streets on Mondays.

It's the first time she has left her wedding ring. 

Remember... .stay big picture.

Your job is to stay between her and "neutral".  So if she is sending you "bad" signals... .agree with her... .but be calmer.

You know... you know when you actually see her that she is going to freak... .so. stay chill... .acknowledge the push signal.

"I'm going to leave you forever... blah blah blah"

you "We obviously need space" or "I agree... this is unpleasant"

get the drift?

Let's get through a day or two... we'll talk more about cars.  But in general... she gives stuff back... take it.  no drama... take her at her word.

FF

I find it very difficult to remain calm in these situation.  Today for example, she was calmer than I.  She very calmly engaged in the argument taking every opportunity to metaphorically knock me off balance and counter my comments on her poor behaviour with counter-attacks.

She knows how to push my buttons.  That's how I ended up, having started on the moral high ground, saying curse words and running away.

 
You're going to have to find a way to relax... .and disengage before you need to curse.  Own it... .say you need 10 minutes.

FF

Dragon72, I hear you... .and formflier is correct, disengage before you go”broken arrow”.

Here I sit on the couch with the stray chow mix dog thinking about what happened in my grid square today... .started out ok, up early, made coffee, going to start getting ready for church, woke up my son, a slow and easy going Sunday morning considering the last week with bells, timed showers, and peanut eating crimes committed... .but I let down my guard for a second and was not watching the radar, and the next thing I know the Japanese (BPD) is bombing my peaceful Pearl Harbor on a relaxing Sunday morning... .well she pushed my buttons just right once more, and I too let out a couple of “F” bombs as I was pretty pisssd about my Sunday morning coffee time being bombed and straffed by my u/BPDw’s never ending campaign of mayhem and chaos... .I did make it to services with my son little late so we had to sit in the balcony in hypocrites row... .damage was done, “F” bomb usage now well and permanently documented in the BPD punishment log to be used at a later date... .yes, disengage at all cost, I completely understand that we get so worn down, and stressed out that when our endurance is at its end, and the slights just keep coming that we do give a little back... .but it’s always at a price later on, I hope things improve for you in the next forty eight hours, we are all here listening Dragon72,

Red5   

I'm home now. It's 9pm. My wife and son haven't been back while I was out and it looks like they'll be spending the night somewhere else, most probably with one of her nearby siblings.
I miss my son already.

 
OK... .has she ever done this before?

Does she have cell phone... .has she texted at all where she will be?

As in... .has she ever run off with your kid and said nothing... left all her stuff.

Is she driving her old car?

The reason I am asking is you should stay out of overthinking.  Stay out of BPDland.

If a normal person isn't at home when they say they are... it's normal to reach out.

A text:  "Hey... you ok?  I don't remember you mentioning being somewhere else tonight?"  (you own the possible miscommunication)

FF

She has done this before in the daytime, never overnight.

I texted her an hour ago asking if they're OK. No reply.

 Neither car has been taken. Her brother live 10 minutes walk away. Or she could have gone elsewhere on public transport.

 
It's reasonable to reach out.  Do you have cell phone for brother?

Are you guys close?

Overnight is a big deal... .with no coordination.  That is horrible... the things you could be thinking and worrying about.

I would call the cell phone.  Leave a neutral message... .saw you weren't at home and I'm concerned.   Please contact me.

FF

I have a good relationship with my BiL and I texted him asking if they are with him, if he knows they are safe. No reply.

OK... .it would appear you didn't find them and people that would normally respond... are not. 

Correct?... .BIL would normally respond to you?

Listen man... .you know some BPD crazy a$$ stuff is coming.  It's going to help you to "find" some authentic emotions you can stick with.

I would suggest surprise and befuddlement  (do what?)  (help me understand)... .

don't answer crazy... .get them to reflect on or clarify the question... .let them know you will consider it and get back to them.

Be authentic... .slow things down.

FF

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