BPDFamily.com

So much has changed in the last 6 weeks since I posted.

My last post was on Nov 20th and was on the "Improving" board. I had posted about how well marriage counseling was going and that I'd seen improvements in myself and in BPDH's behaviors. I wrote about how, for the first time in years, I was feeling excited about our upcoming wedding anniversary and hopeful about the future of our marriage.

Things have gone very far south in such a short period... .

BPDH started with a new therapist last year. I searched for ages to find a local T who specializes in BPD & DBT. Hub agreed to therapy and after I saw that he was keeping his appointments & actively participating, I agreed to his request for marriage counseling. We found a new marriage counselor and we both started making improvements. About a month ago, H started a huge backslide. He began wavering on whether or not he actually has BPD (diagnosed by 3+ MH pros). I had a hard time with that, but eventually decided I could deal with him not using the label "Borderline," so long as he is still doing DBT and working on his behaviors. He recently told me that although he's still going to therapy, that he never was doing DBT, will never do it, and that his T said he "used to have BPD, but doesn't anymore." Again, I accepted it, trying not to get hung up on labels.
But now, as I feared would happen in his doing CBT and not DBT, his behaviors are worsening and he is beginning to dysregulate more often and is reverting back to his old patterns of psychologically tormenting me (gaslighting, threats of infidelity, financial manipulation, screaming, etc). It got so bad that a couple weeks ago, I had a mental breakdown which required emergency professional intervention.

Since then, I've been trying to determine how to approach with him the topic of his behaviors, but he has been generally unapproachable. So I decided to bring it up in MC last night. I expressed to our T that I felt that the only way we could continue making progress would be for him to do DBT as he had promised. She agreed and asked him if he would do this. He said absolutely not. T said that he has made his decision and that I must work toward radically accepting it, and bc of his decision, any future sessions we have will be dedicated solely to "peaceful coexistence," and no longer focus on improving the marriage.

So this brings me to being conflicted. I don't want to continue MC with the goal of simply "coexisting." That's just too heartbreaking for me. Hub wants to continue MC. The agreement was always that we only continue MC if he does DBT. He broke the agreement.

So do I leave the window open for him to change his mind about DBT? If I do leave the window open indefinitely, it puts me in limbo, where I can't work towards radical acceptance of his unwillingness to ever change his behaviors.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you all for listening.

P.S. - For those of you who don't know my story, I am physically disabled and unable to live alone. Therefore if I ever end up feeling like I want to leave the r/s, it would be logistically impossible.

Hi bananas2,

This is such a tough situation!

After reading your post my first thought is as much as you don't want it, and as much as it feels like a broken promise, do you think you could possibly give the peaceful co-existence approach a chance? Sort of push past your "resistance" and see if there is anything at all that you could get from this. I know it is not your goal or your dream, but peaceful co-existence sounds like it may offer some good elements. Is there anything good about it you could objectively identify, pretending for a moment this was someone else and not you in this situation? (I say this because I don't even have this much!)

I know it might not seem like much, but it is something that he has agreed to MC. Has he expressed what his goal is? Maybe you can give yourself a set amount of time (2, 3-6 mo's?) you could try this out and then reevaluate at a later date?

Take the time to examine yourself... .did your own expectations perhaps set you for disappointment? Would radically accepting that MC is the best he can do at this time, that he can't see himself in a way that allows for other types of treatment, be an option?

wishing you peace, pearlsw.

Hey... .  

I'm 100% disabled through the VA... and just got my SSDI approved.  My disabilities are a big part off the conflict in my r/s.  Although I am able to live independently if I needed to.

Can you tell us more about your disabilites... .or PM me if you want.

Hang in there

The marriage counseling was his idea. I was the one who was initially resistant for several reasons, one of them being that he has a history of manipulating T's, which is why we made the agreement that I would go to MC as long as he was doing DBT.
He has expressed that his MC goal is "to move forward in the r/s." When the T asked him to elaborate, he explained that he wants to get me to "get over" his previous infidelities and "shut up about the cheating already."


I am considering it. My reluctance is two-fold:
1) It's painful for me to think of going to MC but no longer be working toward improving our marriage. Although in time, I may be able to get past this feeling.
2) He broke his agreement to do DBT. If there is no consequence for breaking this agreement, I fear he will continue to break other future agreements.

Should we point out to a pwBPD when he/she is dysregulating?

I tend to get distant/quiet when BPDH dysregulates, then he will demand I tell him what's wrong bc I'm being quiet. Always wanting to be honest with him, I carefully point out his behaviors that are causing me to recoil. Example: "I'm being quiet bc you seem to be having extreme/disproportionate reactions." This appears to agitate him further and usually elicits a rage response. If I go in the other direction and say that nothing is wrong, then I'm being dishonest and he tells me I'm "pretending" with him which also results in a rage response from him.

Not sure what to do here.

bananas2,

I am so sorry to hear this news.  I shared your excitement last fall when things were going well.  It has got to be heartbreaking to have a setback like this.  You are in a tough situation, and I'm feeling like I need to absorb it and think rather than just advise.  Thought that leads me to the only thing I can suggest.  Give yourself some time.  Your intellect and your emotional need for resolution may be driving you to figure all of this out right away.  It's terribly tough.  Don't force it.  Your thoughts and feelings may evolve.  So may his.  With a pwBPD, the end keeps coming.  Again, and again, and again.  And yet, it doesn't end.  There's a lot of game left ahead.

Since you're in this for the long haul, I think you might find it worth it to look at this reply of mine I lifted from one of ozmatoz's threads, and to watch the video.  Had I known about this years ago, I would have given it a try. (The quote frame is a little wonky because I pulled it from a locked thread).


I'm sorry you're going through this, but am glad to see you posting and receiving support here.

   

WW

I agree that you shouldn't tell an untruth, that is differently from blurting out the truth at any instant.

So... .when he asks... ."I'm pensive and quiet and I'm still trying to think through why.  It would help if we could relax on the couch and discuss something else"

Or perhaps add that you ask he not take it personally.

FF

I would say "I'm feeling uncomfortable." That makes it totally about me.

If pressed for the "why" I might add, "Loud voice tones make me feel nervous."

It's hard not to say "You're behavior is a problem." But breaking it down into smaller pieces and saying how a particular thing affects you is better than saying something where they think you are judging them (extreme/disproportionate reactions).

I know it's a slippery slope, but I've been able to more successfully get him to understand his impact upon me this way.

Wow, your situation sounds extremely difficult and I’m sorry you’re expediting such gaps and pain. Firstly I want to gently challenge you... .you say you’re physically disabled and if you want to leave the relationship then it is logistically impossible... with utmost respect to your disability, I’ve found that if someone truly wants to leave a situation they will find a way. For example... .couldn’t you call a family member and find a studio or a caretaker if things were to absolutely get unbearable? My intuition just tells me that you’re using your disability to manipulate yourself into believing that you are too disabled to leave the relationship. Please don’t get offended just truly question this inside yourself for a second.

Now, if that happens to be the case subconsciously. No judgment toward you at all and it seems like he has put you in a catch-22 lose lose situation. Therefore accepting it is all you can really do. UNLESS you choose to NOT ENABLE HIM. What that would look like is holding him accountable for his broken promise and building firm boundaries. You would then end up feeling a higher level of self respect even if you do choose to be with him. Because part of you deep down is already upset with yourself for staying with someone who consistently disrespected you even if it’s because of their diagnosis. So maybe you would feel a little stronger and better about your sense of self if you end up reading up on how to have firm boundaries to protect yourself from heartbreaks every time he breaks a promise- even if you laying boundaries causes him to freak out

'When you're shouting at me/saying things I find hurtful, I feel upset and go quiet because I want you to stop.'

Thanks, Wentworth. I needed to hear this.

Re: the video, I had planned to watch it when I first saw the link on the original thread, but I'm going to have to hold off on approaching H re: treatment, bc of what he told me this morning... .

He said that he's giving me two weeks to "change my attitude," or he's filing for divorce. He elaborated that "changing my attitude" includes me never talking to him again about him having a mental illness. He also said that he doesn't now and never did have any psych issues (despite all the professional diagnoses & 2 prior psych hospitalizations). The only reason he is continuing with his individual T is bc he "needs to learn how deal with me and all I am putting him through." Told me he's been lying to me all this time about his treatment plan/goals, and that he has never worked on any of his issues bc he "doesn't have any." The denial is strong in this one. Also included in "changing my attitude" is to stop asking him questions and never tell him again that "I'm hurt" by anything he did/does. Strange criteria. Also completely unacceptable to me. I can deal with the part about not discussing his BPD, but the not asking any questions and never expressing when he harms me? No.

No worries - I'm not at all offended. I always like a challenge! I should not have used the word "impossible." I know there are always options. I realize I should have said that leaving would be "extraordinarily difficult." I don't have a family member or friend who would be able to help me out, and although my current insurance would pay for a caretaker, if we got divorced, I would lose H's insurance and have to go back to Medicare, which doesn't pay for home care for my specific disability. I'd also have to live on only my SSDI, which is incredibly  difficult (I know - I did it for a couple years before my condition worsened). I'm certain I could figure out a way to leave, but it might mean that my life becomes even more difficult than it is now. So I stay, for now. Thank you though for reminding me "where there's a will, there's a way," and to not let "impossible" become part of my internal dialogue.  |iiii

You hit the nail on the head with that statement. Looks like I have another topic to address with my individual T next week!

I'm pretty decent with the boundaries, but unsure how to hold him accountable for his promise-breaking. What would that part look like?

Edit: He threatens me with divorce 3-4 times a year, so this may be just another empty threat. He uses it to get what he wants bc he knows the possibility of my losing his excellent healthcare coverage scares me.

When you say "hold him accountable," you talk as if you want to modify his behavior (and of course anyone in your situation would).  Boundaries are about what we do with our own behavior.  If he works late without letting you know, you eat dinner without him.  That protects you from being hungry.  As a bonus, he may start coming home earlier to calling to let you know he's running late, but that's not the primary goal.  The nice thing with this arrangement is we have a very high probability of getting the benefit of the boundary if we control our behavior to get it.  If we have carefully selected the boundary we can also be confident in our right to have it, since we enjoy many rights to control our own behavior.  Controlling someone else's behavior is much more difficult.  And our right to control someone else's behavior may be more likely to be challenged than if we are controlling our own.

In a group at work or in a family it is possible to foster an environment of accountability using leadership, setting an example, rewards, peer pressure, a sense of mission, etc.  I believe it is possible in a healthy marriage as well.  Trust, and I think accountability, is a main topic in "How to Make Love Last," by John Gottman.  But I think any environment of accountability requires the actors to have some commitment to a common goal and to have a basic ability to be accountable.  I am not at all an expert in this, so if anyone has had success growing accountability in a pwBPD I'd love to hear about it.  If I had to hazard a guess, it might involve DBT.  One of the key issues with accountability and pwBPD is that they have a poorly developed sense of self.  Accountability trouble stems right from the cognitive deficits involved in BPD.

My pwBPD and I are also on a very different page with respect to accountability for her actions.  I failed completely in my efforts to get her to be accountable.  Any agreements were ephemeral and not based on a true feeling from her that she was responsible (at least not a feeling or conviction that lasted more than a little while).  She is in DBT and another intervention program.  She is either going to get it or she isn't.  And I believe that whether she gets it or not is likely to determine the course of our relationship.  The only thing that got us this far was my willingness to risk the relationship and the fact that I took drastic action.  I can observe whether she is developing accountability and I can decide how I will act in response to that, but I can't make her get accountable.  Perhaps my willingness to leave increases the incentive for her, which may increase the chances, but she's going to need to do the work.  I can't engineer success for her, I have reluctantly realized.

Getting back to his promises, he is clearly not good at keeping promises.  Take the promise to do DBT for example.  Clearly, the fact that he promised to do it is not compelling to him.  You are unlikely to be able to change that (it's that BPD accountability thing in the frontal lobe).  That doesn't mean that he won't ever do DBT, but the promise seems worthless as a motivator.  This may sound crazy, but what about stopping actively campaigning to get him to keep promises?  Worry about it less?  You might choose not to look at it as giving in, but like a general choosing not to fight a battle she is not confident she can win, preserving her strength for campaigns where she can have an impact.  Another thought is that if you take someone incapable of keeping promises and force them to make one, you've essentially just created a guilty person because the broken promise is inevitable.  Perhaps avoid promises and take things day by day?

On that video, I saw it many months ago and decided without watching it that it wouldn't help me.  I was surprised when I watched it.  I actually think now might be a great time for you to watch it, because the approach is not what I thought.  It's not about a frontal assault on the problem, or getting things to happen quickly.  It might help you let go of some of your frustration from past battles.  Honestly, I think it might be a little healing.  It talks a lot about anosognosia, when someone who is mentally ill doesn't know it.  The speaker, a psychiatrist, talks in a very heartfelt way, from personal experience trying to get his brother into therapy, about how agonizing it can be for the loved one to keep pushing and failing, and how it can damage the relationship.  He talks about another way which is not as antagonistic.  I wish seen the video many years ago before things got out of hand and had been able to give his techniques a try.  He doesn't get too deeply into his techniques in the video, so I think the book might be worth reading.

Sorry, I'm skipping around here, but one other thing I wanted to talk about is the divorce threats.  My wife threatened divorce regularly, and was very convincing.  I became accustomed to it, but my heart aches just remembering.  Despite the fact that she had never followed through, the stress was still huge, and it destroyed trust and took our relationship back to square one every time.  Our pwBPD and other abusive people use threats to control us to get what they want or make the world feel less threatening to them.  It's the fear that makes it work.  If you can take the fear away, or blunt it, the control weakens, and you may feel better able to assert boundaries.  To help address my fear of divorce, I read "Splitting" and I also picked an apartment complex where I could live that I could afford.  Knowing where I'd go and having a budget prepared and figuring out all those other logistics helped me to be more confident and less fearful about the divorce threats, even though I never intended to move out -- that preparation actually allowed me to be more effective in the relationship.  As you said, you have a very daunting challenge to live independently.  You may have already done this, but working out the specifics might help.  Or if you already know the specifics from past experience, remind yourself when things get tough.  The other very nice benefit of thinking like that is that you start walking and talking and feeling like someone who has options.  You are not trapped.  You are in control of your own destiny and are choosing to stay.  I've seen some of this confidence from you at times, though I think it may come and go depending on how you are feeling.  And this thread is the first time I've seen you state outright that living independently *is* possible, just awfully, awfully tough.

I hope some of this is helpful.  I am sure it could be more concise -- thanks for your patience with the verbosity!

WW

Can you see the invalidating/judgemental character of this remark?  He certainly does.

This sounds very safe, though potentially invalidating to you since you're not really trying to think through why -- you know why, and it's his loud voice.

Depends on how sensitive he is.  If he finds the reference to loud voice tones to be accusatory, then you're off to the races.  A slight improvement on that might be "loud sounds make me nervous."  For some reason, "voice" sounds more personal to me, compared to discussing loud sounds in general.

OK, I'm going with "loud sounds make me nervous, can we sit on the couch and talk about something else?"  Honest enough not to invalidate you, not accusatory to him, and distracts by moving to something safe (you could even suggest a safe topic).

WW

If your hubby wants to divorce you... .he can... even if you say no.  Remember that.

So... .all else is likely manipulation.  Do this or I will (fill in blank).

In your mind, you need to figure out if you want to have threats in your r/s.  If you don't... .then don't ever... .ever... .give in to a threat.  Don't fight them either. 

Walking away is usually best.

Perhaps a good boundary would be that you will not talk about mental health outside a Ts office.

I have several boundaries like that.  I basically say that I don't "pass messages" so if she wants to know what a professional has said to me, we can both sit in a room and listen and she can ask questions directly.

Hint... .they almost never will take you up on this

FF

Another option

"I'm not comfortable with the words between us.  I'm taking time to think this through"

You reference togetherness and identify what is "between you".  No judgement about how they got there.  He can figure it out... .or not.

You are being honest... .and wise... by "thinking it through".

Tone of voice should be concerned and confused.

FF

Funny that you say this, bc yesterday I started "thinking out loud" to H about some specifics of what my plan would look like should he decide to go forth with the divorce. He appeared shocked to hear that I've begun planning out my life without him. I believe he fully expected me to cry and beg him not to leave. After discussing my plan, I told him that I have no control over his decision to divorce me, and if that's truly his desire, then I will survive. I reminded him I've survived worse situations and I will absolutely survive this too. He listened to me intently, then followed up with "But you can't live independently." I calmly responded with "True. I'd have to get a roommate or find someone to live with. I can't live independently, but I can live independently of you."

A few hours later, he told me he no longer wants to divorce. He hugged me, apologized and said that he's going to start working on his "issues." My reply to him was a short & sweet "ok."

I had only been putting my plans in place in order to empower myself. I wasn't trying to change his mind, nor did I expect to elicit any type of response from him, yet simply changing my mindset from "I can't" to "I can" affected his behavior.

He informed me that he had cancelled our MC session since I had told him that I would no longer be participating bc of his broken DBT agreement. He then said that he contacted our T and asked her if he could keep the appointment, but that he would be attending without me, with the purpose of learning r/s skills for the future. He told me he would still like me to attend the session if I'm willing. I responded that I need to think about it and get back to him with an answer before the appointment next week.
So, I'm still not sure what to do. The agreement was MC only if he does DBT. He's not doing DBT. I feel if I go to the appointment, that it sends him the message that he can break future agreements without consequence. If I don't go, I may be missing out on an opportunity to learn new skills to "peacefully co-exist."

Wentworth - You convinced me. I'm going to watch the video.

This is a possibility. Considering it.

I would advise you to go.  Get in front of the counselor and him and calmly explain your decision to come and that you would like to hear the counselors opinion about DBT for him, you, both... etc etc.

Ask her to explain her thoughts on people doing MC without working on individual improvement and learning new skills.  

Stay away from saying "their own issues" or judgmental things like that.

The important part is that you are both in the room listening about a way forward.   I would not agree to anything in that session.

If a way forward is proposed ask questions, say that it sounds good at first blush but you want to give it some thought.  Come back next week with answer.

FF

An alternate thought is to not go, at least this next time.  The fact that he offered to put it back on the schedule and go without you is huge.  Following through and completing that commitment could help establish a mood of collaboration in his mind (feelings following actions) and it seems like it might be helpful to you.  Even if you hang back just one week, and go the next, you've taken a bit of a stand and it won't be like you've just capitulated.  Give him a ton of positive reinforcement for going to MC alone.

You got me thinking a little about MC without DBT.  How might that go?  The thing I started thinking is that you want behaviors to improve.  We both happen to feel that having our spouses in DBT is the best thing.  I wouldn't back away from that as a long term aspiration.  But what if you could get some improvements with MC?  Not by banging your head over and over like it's Groundhog Day, though.  Have you read the book, The High Conflict Couple?  It's by a DBT/BPD guy at University of Washington, Alan Fruzetti.  I wonder if your MC has read it.  Maybe your husband goes this time solo, and you go next time solo, and see if your MC might be willing to help you guys work through the DBT-inspired techniques in that book.  Totally different dynamic than trying to make your husband go to DBT.  You are putting some skin in the game, and willing to practice the High Conflict Couple stuff.  What are your thoughts?

Take your time.  Go slow.  Keep things positive.

WW

Heybananas2, To me the best course of action is to get out of the line of fire by leaving the room, leaving the house, calling a timeout, or some similar strategy to protect yourself.  I found communication futile when my BPDxW was in a full-blown rage.  Sad to say, I spent many a night at the local motel.

LuckyJim

This has worked for me 100% of the time: "I'm feeling a bit anxious but I'm not sure why. I can't turn my brain off right now. I want to talk to you, but I don't want to trouble you with things I haven't fully formulated within my own head yet. I'd like to sit with you and be near you right now, but maybe we can talk later? I want to express myself the best I can to you, and I need time to think. What do you think about that?"

This has worked for a number of reasons:

1.) "It's not you - it's me." Because, that's true in many cases. It's not always the pwBPD that is the instigator. It's often the non. Or both of us equally. These relationships are hard, right?

2.) We all have trouble turning off our anxieties. PwBPD, and those who love them. They GET this.

3.) We love our partners, want to share with them, confide in them, but not over-burden them. Nobody wants to be a "drag" not even the people with BPD.  Nobody wants that. They get this too.

4.) I want you by my side, even if we can't fix everything today. We are still a team.

5.) You deserve the best of my expressions and understanding, and I want to say it right. What do you think about letting me have some time to do that for you?

And none of this is insincere, or "blowing smoke up the a$$" of the BPD partner. It's genuine respect, but maybe dressed in a little more careful wording.

It has helped me to communicate with my dBPDh, (in spades) but I don't know if it will work for everyone. I hope a few can benefit from it. 

Is asking a question in response to a question wrong?

"What's up with you now?"
"What do you think is up with me?"

Then you don't rescue them by either giving them a reason why you are backing off or a lie to allow them to avoid the guilt of the fact they have frightened you. They have to answer their own question.

This is really a good approach to my thinking, BasementDweller. I think as wentworth points out, a lot of the other responses can be invalidating. It really easy to be invalidating.

Invalidation is gas on fire.

When your partner has a disproportionate reaction, or highly emotional reaction, they fell it and want you you to validate it. When the roles are reversed, we want this too. Make sense?

My favorite example is a someone having a road-rage reaction and the partner invalidating them by say cool down.

Now, of course, we don't want to fuel road rage (or any rage), so what do we do?  

Best to listen. And if that doesn't cool things, say you need time to think about what they said. Can we pick this up later. Later would be your best guess on how long the extinction burst needs to return to baseline.

We react the same way. Think about it.

I think it is wrong... .certainly bad manners.  Best to respond directly to a question asked... .vice blow it off... .or ignore it.

After you have addressed their question... .perhaps ok to ask your own.

Make sure to "take the temperature of things" first.  Sometimes questions can turn up the heat.

FF

This is a fabulous strategy! It's taking responsibility for one's own emotions, which models good emotional intelligence. Also it buys time and is a very polite and respectful way to sidestep a dysregulation! Thanks for sharing it!  |iiii

Thank you, Skip and CatFamiliar. My version is a bit wordy, I suppose, but a paraphrased or modified version of it would likely work as well.

"I have a lot to sort out in my head right now, and I really want to formulate it so we can talk about it. I'd like to hear your thoughts."

I'm feeling a bit anxious, but I'm not sure how to explain it. Let me think about that, then I really want to share it with you and hear your input."

Any phrases like that are a way of saying "It's not you, it's me." and "I want to include you."

The abandonment fears cause pwBPD to fear exlusion, or feel excluded when that's not what is intended. Because they are very sensitive to rejection, if they feel you have something to say but don't want to tell them, they feel fearful and hurt about that - excluded from your life and thoughts, and like you are hiding something from them.

I did pretty much everything wrong with my dBPDh for the first couple of years of our relationship because I didn't know what I was dealing with. Phrases like "I don't want to talk about it" or "You're overreacting, it's fine"... .while dismissive and not so helpful, generally don't upset non-disordered people who have a thicker skin so much. But they are extremely damaging and triggering to a pwBPD. Once I figured that out, and learned how to properly validate (while still maintaining my own dignity and boundaries) the whole dynamic of my relationship changed. I realized that underneath the harsh and reactive exterior my partner was showing, there was a deeply sensitive man who wanted nothing more than to feel appreciated, understood, and accepted. The same thing we all want, I suppose. When I finally learned how to communicate with him, he told me he felt like a huge weight had been lifted from his shoulders, and that my validation was "what he had always hoped to finally hear." The problem with BPD, is that it renders people really unable to express their deepest needs in a constructive way. When they hurt is when they "lose it" - and they hurt often. Their childish way of getting their needs met alienates the ones they most want to keep around, creating a vicious, and self-fulfilling cycle. It took a while, but I finally learned to stop reacting to the dysregulation and get to the bottom of what he actually wanted, but didn't know how to express in a way that my rational brain could read. It finally clicked, and I learned how to reach him, and not by losing myself. More like improving myself, I suppose.

After telling your partner that you want to formulate your thoughts and share them with them - you may even find that after a bit of time has passed, your partner has forgotten the exchange and doesn't ask again. When they disregulate, they are very much "in the moment" and the intensity of it, but often forget a lot later.

If they do bring it up again later, a good way to say that you have trouble coping when your partner is melting down and you want to address that is to say something like, "I really like it when we communicate with each other in a supportive way... ." (Positive reinforcement, and complimentary, unlike "I don't like it when we argue... ." Same sentiment, but worded extremely differently.

Then follow up by saying something like, "It would be so nice if we could do more of that. What are your thoughts on that? What kind of conversations do you find to be the most constructive?"

I'm careful here not to say "I want more of that" or "We need to do more of that"... .which implies there's not enough of it, or something is lacking, and it makes them feel pressured. The follow-up questions allow the partner to participate and feel included in the goal.

Here is where, if the pwBPD is still diregulated, you might have to endure hearing "I want you to stop attacking me!" Or "You never listen to me!"

And that's where the validation comes in. "I understand you are saying you feel attacked. That has to be a bad feeling. I'd like to work with you on expressing myself in a way that is constructive to the relationship. Can you help me with that?"

You aren't submitting to the accusation, but you are acknowledging their feelings, setting a goal for yourself that is actually a positive thing in ANY relationship, and asking your partner for help, making him or her feel included, and most importanly - needed and appreciated. Making it about improving the relationship (a thing) and not making it personal, chances are they will soften a bit, and try to express their needs constructively. If they are REALLY in a deep internal crisis, they might avoid answering for a while, but it will likely diffuse things greatly, and allow a better conversation to take place later.

I'm actively trying to "recover" from using too many words/over-explaining.  It's a work in progress.

My version of this would be...

"Babe... .I'm trying to think through some things.  It would mean a lot to me if we could come together now and snuggle."

Even that still seems a bit long.  My big parts to that are me owning "thinking, clearly saying what is meaningful and offering to "come together" (showing that we are a couple)

FF

Great discussion!

The irony is that my husband will often shut down talking about his feelings, saying, "It's not important." However, he will grill me if I don't tell him what I'm thinking. That's not usually a problem, since I can be rather loquacious and I'm not at all averse to sharing my thoughts and feelings. The problem comes when I share too quickly without thinking through carefully how it might impact him. And sometimes I really don't know how I feel because I can see too many sides of a situation--a problem when one sees too many "shades of gray." So buying myself time is a good strategy and your way of doing that is very gracious.  |iiii


This is a really good way to reframe the dysregulation for the non partner. Too often those unkind words have triggered me and made me feel disrespected, so I hadn't been motivated to try and understand the underlying intent. To be able to keep my dignity and not feel like I am appeasing him is a good goal.


In the past, I've often been the one to bring up the topic afterwards. The irony is that if I were that upset about something, it would definitely be on my mind later and I'd want to talk it out. With him, he's usually forgotten about it and the times I've brought it up, I've opened up the wound again.


This is so helpful and definitely a time for the non to take a deep breath and be very vigilant about not using triggering language. Thanks for a great explanation! |iiii

bananas2, you're quiet.

Based on your experience and you husbands constitution, what are your thoughts?

A lot of good advice here. Thank you all!

Unfortunately, during his times of dysregulation, any mention from me about "loud noises/voices" or any derivative of "high volume" elicits one of two responses from him:
1) "I only screamed bc you made me. That's the only way to get through to you."
2) "I wasn't screaming/getting loud. Stop telling me I'm being loud when I'm not."

So, I think the approach I'm going to try here is the simplest one, and that is to tell him "I'm quiet bc I'm thinking things through. I need time to process. I hope you can be ok with that for now."
He's learned through MC that "time-outs" need to be respected. Because I have lead through example by always respecting his time-outs, he has generally been respectful of mine.

It's important that I remember to come back to the topic at a later date when he comes back to baseline, so that we set a precedent that a time-out is not final, and that it means we will eventually revisit the issue and not eternally leave it unresolved.

 |iiii

Thank you for all the great feedback!  |iiii

I've spent nearly every day since my last post considering your comments and my own feelings and I've come to the decision that I am going to go to the MC appointment with H.
However, I intend to tell him that my express purpose in attending is to get the T's opinion on our ceasing MC. Therefore, this may or may not be our last session, and I intend to be up front with him about this (in a gentle manner, of course).
I had told H in the car after our last appointment that I no longer wanted to participate in MC, so T's only knowledge of my decision came from a text to her by H. I fully believe that H will be understanding that I want to discuss my decision with her.

Sadly, I fully realize that his reasoning for going to the session without me is not, as he's said, "to learn new skills for the future." It is, as per usual, to complain about me and for him to play the "victim" role.

Thanks, Skip. I really, truly needed a "thumbs up" today.

Please don't express it this way... in fact... I wouldn't suggest asking "should I quit".

Perhaps "I'm frustrated by apparent lack of progress... .can we discuss a way to move forward so my hubby and I grow closer and learn better relationship skills."

I would follow up by... .

"What are the top one or two skills you think I should work on/improve?"  "How"

"What are the top one or two skills for hubby to work on/improve"  "How".

I can see how a pwBPD could get overwhelmed. 

I'm not suggesting a bunch of skills be taken off the table... .but I am suggesting you focus on only 1 or 2 (for now)

small steps... .so he and you... can have victories.

FF

I agree with formflier about softening your language, and have quoted a bit more, so that I could say that things that we think we are doing with a gentle manner with our pwBPD is often not perceived by them to be in a gentle manner.  One reason that I'm reacting is that your thinking above is very close to the "lay out the facts" approach that comes naturally to me.  I have not found it to be successful with my wife.  Saying that it "might or might not be the last session" is logically true, but it is a "raise the stakes" comment.  It adds pressure to an already pressurized situation. 

How about saying, "I'm very uneasy about the idea of continuing with MC in this mode that the counselor has suggested, but I've thought about it, and want to hear more about what he/she suggests we do."  That validates your feelings and also doesn't take your hand off the chess piece -- you are not making a long term commitment to MC in the new mode -- but it also tells him you're going without saying anything to raise the stakes.  Just leave it at that.  Less is more.

I have a couple of thoughts on the "coexisting" MC topic.  First, labels are fluid.  You are a logical person with object constancy, so you took the MC at his word.  That news hit you hard.  To a pwBPD, the story changes all the time.  Feelings matter more than facts.  Do you think that "coexisting" label matters to your husband?  Can you let it matter less to you?

Second, think about "coexisting" in a positive light.  If you were to sit and think about what you would like to see improve to help you coexist better, I bet feeling safe and not experiencing rages would be right at the top of the list.  I bet you could fit an awful lot of good stuff in that "coexisting" tent.  In a few weeks, that label may fade in importance and even be forgotten.  Peaceful coexistence is a foundation for any relationship.  It's a good place to start.

I see your truth here.  It makes total sense.  But I've read through my reply here a few times, and on about the 4th read, this quote struck me a little differently.  Who is playing the victim role?

As to whether he would do that, sure he could.  A bad scenario would be if you think he could sway or confuse the MC.  A neutral scenario would be if your H blows hot air and the MC lets it just blow by him or her.  But there's a potential positive scenario -- without your presence to make your H uncomfortable or shamed, the MC might lean on him a little bit.  Might guide him towards something constructive.  What's your impression of this MC?  Another plus to your husband going alone at some point is that you could then have a session alone with the MC.  The MC might be able to say things to you that he or she couldn't say in front of your husband.  The MC could validate you more, but might also lean on you some more.  I'm not suggesting that you change your plan for the upcoming session, but it might be worth considering doing a couple of 1:1 sessions, if you trust the MC's ability to see things clearly (which is different from agreeing with you

Hey, have you watched that video yet?  Let us know what you think when you do.  I'll spare you the reiteration of why, but I truly believe that you would find it worthwhile.

WW

 |iiii
There's one for tomorrow, too  bananas2, you've got this.

WW

How's it going today,bananas2? Sometimes it's a "baby steps, one day at a time" kind of thing. I've had days with my pwBPD where I have just layed low, stayed scarce, kept to myself just to avoid a fight... .and when there were no blow-outs, I considered it a victory.  :)

It's gotten better lately, and the couples counseling is really helping, but the early days were a lot rougher. Definitely one cautious, "eggshell day" at a time.

I went to the MC session with H last Wednesday. Our T started off by saying that she had had to spend some time after last session "recovering" from H's "verbal assault." I was taken aback that she was so affected by his mere 15-20 of screaming and cursing. The fact that that seems so minor to me really puts things in perspective. It makes me realize just how much I've willingly tolerated for such a long period of time.

T felt that she needed to address H's screaming before we continued with the session. She proceeded to do a "volume exercise" with him, asking him to demonstrate his speaking volume on a 1-10 scale. By the time he got to "2," she informed him that was already too loud. This angered him, so he got even louder. She then had a very direct talk with him, telling that "the screaming must stop" in the session and at home. He hasn't screamed at me since. However, he has now substituted the screaming with an increase in gaslighting and mocking me. Very similar to years ago when he realized that he couldn't hit me anymore bc of legal repercussions, so he began verbally abusing me through threats and screaming. He's simply exchanging one form of control/abuse for another.

On to the DBT issue... .Long story short, our T felt that H breaking his agreement to participate in DBT was part of his "pattern of disrespect" toward me and that I would have to decide how much disrespect I'm willing to tolerate. So I still have a decision to make as to whether or not to continue with MC. Toward the end of the session, we delved a bit further into the idea of having MC focus only on "peaceful coexistence" rather than improving the marriage per se. As sad as that concept of merely coexisting is to me, I'm leaning toward continuing MC if only just to learn strategies for that. T explained that one of these strategies is for me to remember that I'm a far more verbal person than H is, so if I can restrain myself and be less verbose at times and listen more, this may contribute to calmer discussions with H. I've been working on this for the last couple of days, and it seems to be working a bit.


I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about the "victim role." Can you elaborate?

FF & WW - I did take your suggestions and softened my language with H before the session re: it possibly being our last session. I basically just simplified and stated to him that I wanted to attend the session to get T's feedback and eliminated the part about possibly ceasing MC altogether.

Yes, I watched it. I felt that it was informative, and possibly very helpful to some members, but I didn't feel it was relevant to my specific situation. It was based on the idea of helping someone who is in complete denial of having any disorder whatsoever. H initially accepted his dx of BPD and is currently in therapy, just not the type of therapy that's needed. He's wavered on his dx, and although he now denies his BPD, he may again at some point swing back to acceptance.

Thanks for asking.  |iiii I'm pretty much in that same place you're referencing - laying low & being less verbal. It seems to help. Hoping I can remain in this place for a while. It's when those pre-menopausal hormones kick in that I get myself in trouble! 

Your husbands behavior responds to boundaries.  That is plainly evident.  I'm not saying that is right or wrong, I'm more interested in you understanding there is truth there.  That is the reality in your life.

Make your decisions with that in mind.

I would encourage you to go to next MC.  Ask specifically how you can change your responses to what you "perceive" as mocking (and an increase in that).

As far as victim behavior, I would say/ask this.  If your husband mocks you and you don't like that, do YOU have recourse that does not involve him?

There are limited situations where there truly is no recourse.  I would encourage you to "stand up" for yoruself rather than "take it" as a victim. 

There is a difference in "being victimized" (which clearly you are) and assuming the role of a victim.

I don't specifically remember what my comment was about, but hopefully this gives you some of my thinking.

Good job on MC and GOOD JOB on the verbosity... .um... .let's just say you and I are cut from same cloth.  My current P (and others) often nudge me to use less words.

FF

He will generally respond to boundaries initially, but then gradually taper off until he begins completely disregarding. This pattern is prominent in his promise-keeping as well. He appeared to respect to the boundary I'd set a while back that I will not engage with him for 12 hours following an episode of him screaming (his screaming generally occurred at night, so for most of those 12 hours, he was sleeping and then at work). Our T approved of the boundary. Eventually, H appeared to no longer be affected by the lack of interaction following one of his outbursts, and would continue high-volume rants/rages despite my total lack of interaction with him. Therefore, I'm curious to see if he demonstrates follow-through on the boundary set by our T. If he does, then it may be a matter of him respecting boundaries set by others but not those put in place by me.

The quote about being a victim was from WW, but I'm intrigued by what you mean about the difference between being victimized and assuming the role. I am aware that I am being victimized, but I've changed my mindset recently in that I now think of myself as "survivor" rather than "victim." Is this what you mean? Creating a shift in how I view myself?

Heybananas2, have you started to plot the mood? I started doing it last year but have been a bit lax recently, plus the pattern has been a bit more chaotic over Christmas and new year. My W would have 16 days where she was utterly psychotic and 12 days where there were elements of reasonableness. I found it helpful to mentally prepare myself as well as working out when was and wasn’t an okay time to resolve anything.

Then... .after that... .I'm more interested in how YOU respect your boundaries.

So... .if your husband doesn't respect you T-approved 12 hour boundary... .I would suspect that he partially rationalized it by realizing that you didn't respect it either.

Boundaries sometimes take effort on the part of the person putting them up... .I can think of no better place for YOU to put your time and energy.

Your message to him, through your words and actions... .12 hours after a scream fest... .you taking care of yourself.

I like the word "thriver"... .better than survivor. 


Thoughts?

FF

I'm utterly impressed that you are plotting your W's moods and determining when you can have "safe" conversations. Smart!  |iiii
Unfortunately for me (and BPDH), I am unable to track my hormone fluctuations. I've had a half-dozen gynecological surgeries (including a partial hysterectomy a few years ago at age 39), so the hormonal bursts come in random waves. I tried hormone replacement therapy, but it literally almost killed me, ending up in ICU with severe pancreatitis. The episodes of anxiety/depression are intense, and no doubt affect how I respond to r/s issues.

I am so sorry to hear this.  It is not uncommon for abuse tactics to shift "underground."

Sounds like a good plan.

This seems like a valuable "nugget" of insight.

I suppose that was a failed attempt to be subtle   I was encouraging you to make sure that you were at the center of the drama triangle as well, not leaning towards the victim corner.

In response to my question about the video on getting someone into treatment... .
He is now denying that he has BPD, and is denying that he needs DBT.  :)oes that seem to you like it might fit the spirit of what the speaker in the video is talking about -- that a deficiency in executive function (frontal lobe limitations) prevents him from accurately perceiving his situation and that he could benefit from the therapy?

WW

bananas2,

OK, don't laugh, but after reading your discussion with formflier about boundaries, I honestly think you'd find the first half of this book helpful:

"Transforming the Difficult Child: The Nurtured Heart Approach," by Howard Glasser and Jennifer Easley

I've been instructed by my T to read it all the way up through the chapter on consequences, in order to help me manage D17. 

There are several things that the authors say that are relevant.  One is not to give a lot of negative energy to bad behaviors.  Difficult children (and adults) crave interaction, and if we give them a ton of negative energy, lectures, etc. we are giving them a big payoff.  Another key thing they say is to give a lot of neutral and positive recognition to the person about what you observe going on in their life.  You are setting up a two-sided tension, and *both* sides are important.  They do something undesirable, and they don't get a lecture or anything, just a consequence.  But if they *don't* misbehave, they receive positive feedback and encouragement.  This gives them something to run towards, and removes the incentive to misbehave.

One of the things the authors talk about is manufacturing successes for the person.  Difficult people behave poorly and get negative attention, which fills their need to get attention, but sadly, it also keeps making them feel like failures until the voice of failure is internalized.  If your husband had a lot of this in his childhood, it is likely operating now.  I am just starting to implement the techniques with D12 and D17.  Here's an example of me taking my first baby steps.  D12's room is a total mess.  Knee deep in clothes, etc.  With a sense of humor I told D12 that I was trying to be more positive, and wanted to find something in her room to compliment her on.  It was a challenge.  But I noticed that her trash bin, while full to the top, was not overflowing.  I said it was a sign of how great she was, and I really appreciated how she had not let her trash bin overflow.

I am absolutely not doing this book justice.  I have no doubt that you could adapt the techniques for a grown man.  As I'm reading it, I'm realizing how many counterproductive things I'd been doing.  The very first step in the process is to look for a dozen or so opportunities per day to make a neutral observation about what's going on with the person.  Something that is factual and irrefutable.  It establishes that you are paying attention to them, and gives them nothing to grab onto to get defensive or be suspicious of a compliment.  Then once you've been doing that for a good amount of time, you slowly start working in praise.  Then boundaries come later.

What do you think?  I hope you're not laughing, because I'm serious

WW

Ahhhh, very sorrybananas2 for the mix up there... .although I guess the same could apply to you. Knowing when you’re going to be that little bit more sensitive could help you keep a wisemind about how and why you are feeling as you are. Often if can become our normal. I’ve smoked since I was 14, I’ve given up, cut down, done nicotine replacement... .climbed out of the lounge window in the evenings when W was in bed (back door was too noisy). Me in nicotine withdrawal is like being borderline, I’ve even looked up to see if there are any studies on it. For me it’s that marginal amount of emotional sensitivity which makes me more or less reactive to my W, that difference between the split second reactivity that means an arguement or not. I’m wiser to that now and have quit... .still have the nicotine replacement though!

Recent development... .

Following a discussion last evening with H re: his "pattern of disrespect" that our T brought up during our last MC session, H said he's "had enough" and is divorcing me. I simply told him that I love him and if divorce is what will make him happy, then he should do it. Only three weeks in to the new year, and this is his second divorce threat.

This morning he asked me why I didn't sleep in our bed last night. I was dumbfounded. All I could muster was a confused reply, "You told me last night you're divorcing me, and you want to know why I didn't sleep in our bed?" He then gave an annoyed grunt and left for work.

I'm utterly lost & confused now.

WW - In regards to the book, it sounds perfect. If H decides to stay in the r/s, I'm sure I could apply the techniques. Thanks for the suggestion.

Bravo!  Great response regarding the divorce threat!  Don't give the divorce threat power over you.  If he knows it scares you, he'll use it more.  But you expressed your love, too, probably in a calm confident way, without appearing vulnerable.  Great combo.

Can you tell us a little about what prompted the conversation about the pattern of disrespect?  Did he do something disrespectful that prompted the discussion?

I am sure there is a smooth, skills-based reply for this situation, but sometimes you have to call it like you see it or risk invalidating yourself.  That sounds confusing and frustrating.

I suppose logic doesn't help us as much as we'd hope here, does it?  We know how many divorce threats our pwBPD have uttered before without acting, yet every one hurts and makes us wonder if this one is real.  I do believe that, despite the fact that his need to avoid feeling out of control causes him to do everything possible to make you feel not in control, you have way more power than it feels like.  He needs you.  When he says, "I want to divorce you!" he may really be saying, "I'm worried you will abandon me and I feel out of control!"  so he is trying to regain control by making the threat.  It is certainly hard on you to hear that, though.

I would shy away from saying you love him as part of a divorce threat response.  It could be invalidating.

"that makes me sad and it's not what I want" is a decent response... .perhaps add... I'll have to respect your decision.

FF

formflier, can you expand on why it might be invalidating to say "I love you?"  I'm not challenging, I just didn't pick up on that and would likely learn from better understanding your perspective.

My response to these threats always had two components:  1.  Some form of "It's not what I want," "It's not what I'm hoping for," "I hope we can work things out," etc. and 2.  Acknowledging that she is free to do what she wants, "If that is what you truly want, I cannot stop you."  That approach leaves the ownership of the situation with her and does not give any leverage because I'm not expressing fear or chasing her.  For me, acknowledging out loud that she could do it and I couldn't stop her was very important.  I was saying it to myself, telling myself that I can't control her and shouldn't feel responsible (which was liberating for me), and I was saying it to her -- she's fighting for control, and I'm saying "hey, this is not about control for me, that's your prerogative, I'm not standing in your way." -- I was refusing to dance the control dance.

WW

As much as I know that he will use my fears as ammunition, it deeply upsets me to realize that the one person I should be able to be vulnerable with is the one I can't be. This feels like being treated like an enemy, not a partner.

Yes, he did something disrespectful on Sunday. He had said he was going out for a couple of hours to visit relatives and that he'd be home fairly early and bring dinner home for us. He came home at 9pm - and without dinner, saying that he'd already eaten with his family. This is when I pointed out that this was disrespectful to me. He deflected by accusing me of trying to interfere with his time with his family.


Last night I asked him to elaborate on the specific reasons why he wants a divorce. He said, "All we do is fight." I asked for examples of what we fight about, and every example he gave was of me being hurt/angry with him about a disrespectful/hurtful behavior of his. I didn't tell him this, but it seems to me that it's not so much the "fighting" he dislikes, but rather that he simply can't tolerate having any consequences for his actions.
Then he hit me with a bombshell: "I just don't love you anymore." I was shocked. He said it calmly and in the absence of anger. He's only ever said this once before, years ago, when he briefly left me and stayed a few days at his ex-wife's house. He had said then, over the phone, that he never loved me and that "This is what I do. I use women and when I'm done with them, I divorce them." Later when we reconciled, he had told me his ex was by the phone coaching him to say that. I believed it bc it sounded like something she would say. Now I'm not sure what to believe. Maybe he did really mean that. After all, this would be his FIFTH divorce and he's only 52.
Anyway, I did my best to remain calm, but his words cut like a knife. I got very emotional and tried to hold back tears, to no avail. I ranted for a bit with a mixture of hurt and anger. Just as he was getting in bed, I got triggered when I noticed the cards he'd given me for our recent anniversary/birthday & Christmas laying out, remembered all the beautiful sentiments he'd written to me (how lucky he is to have me, how much he loves me, etc.) and when he went to bed, I took the three cards and threw them on the bed. Shameful, I know. He told me this morning that he will no longer speak to me bc when I threw the cards, I was "being violent," and he "won't tolerate violence." Ironic coming from a man who once beat me.

So today I'm left feeling hurt, confused, angry, and just generally upset.

Our lease is up in a few months and he said he won't sign it to renew. That doesn't give me enough time to find a place to live and find a roommate or set up in-home care.

Trying to take things one day at a time, but it's hard right now.

reading about the divorce threats, i would not suggest you dont take them seriously, or that hes not taking them seriously, but i hear a threat designed to get you to act. i did that many times with my ex, threatened to leave but hoped she would get the message and change.

have a read of this: https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

what stage would you say the relationship is in?

So... look at this "big picture"

He blew you off... .you "hit him square with the issue" and he became defensive.

Many "nons" would do the same thing.

Direct assaults (direct confrontations) don't work well with pwBPD. 

I would suggest a flanking maneuver.

he comes home with no dinner...

"Hey babe... did you bring dinner?"

blah blah

"Oh goodness... .I don't understand how this got crossed up... I'm starved want to come with me to grab a bite?  I'm heading out."

So... you have left him to reflect on being an azz... .without telling him he is an azz

Arguments about who is bad and/or worse are the specialties of pwBPD... don't get down and wrestle with them, it won't work.

FF

Can you briefly sketch out what you know about his prior marriages and divorces?

Please confirm the number.

FF

Thank you for the link, OnceRemoved. In the past, I've taken H's threats with a grain of salt, as he usually recants. This time is different bc he's added "I don't love you anymore." Despite all else, "love" has always been a constant in our r/s. Removing that creates an entirely different scenario. I read through the link and determined that we are most likely at Stage 4.

I am so sorry to hear of the latest developments.  Hearing that you are not loved must have been terribly difficult and saddening (I'm sorry, I know those words don't do it justice, it must be awful, especially given that the love has not been threatened before).

As you know, our pwBPD need to find ways to "up the ante" when old threats are not effective at getting the response they are looking for.  This may be one of those times.

I'll give you some time to respond to formflier's questions before posing any of my own.  I know this is so tough to cope with, but we will stick with you on this.  You are not alone.   

WW

Fairly early on, when we were first dating but not in a committed r/s, H volunteered to me that he'd been married 3 times. I didn't put much thought into in bc I had no intention at the time of entering into a long-term r/s with anyone. Later when I fell in love with him and we became exclusive, I asked for more detail about the marriages and this is what he told me... .

1st wife: They were both 21 and she had a 2 year old from a previous r/s. Just before they got married, H wanted to back out, but then found out she was pregnant, so went ahead with the wedding. The minute he got deployed overseas, she divorced him, telling him she'd only married him to have another child & get financial support. When the alimony ran out, she married someone else and did the same thing. Since she is the mother of his D30, I've met her a few times and can confirm H's story.
2nd wife: 14+ year marriage. Divorced amicably due to irreconcilable differences. I can confirm H's version of this as well.
3rd wife: The rebound. Married only 2-3 years. H says he divorced her bc she "treated him like a meal ticket for her and her kids." He despises her to this day. I've never spoken to her and therefore can't confirm anything about the r/s.

Although I thought 3 marriages was an excessive #, it made sense to me. Married young due to pregnancy, then a fairly long & seemingly "healthy" marriage, followed by the mistake of marrying the rebound. I was ok with it.

A few weeks before we applied for our marriage license, and most likely due to the fact that the number of prior marriages would be indicated on the license, he told me he'd actually been married 4 times, not 3. There was a quick 1 year marriage to someone he met while in the Army (between wife #1 & #2). He said it ended bc she "took all his money and left." I have no way of knowing if this is true. I was upset that he hadn't been forthcoming about this earlier. Red flag.  red-flag But blinded by love, I went ahead with the wedding.
Side Note: I asked H if the woman from the 1-year marriage had any children before they married. He told me she didn't. Just a few months ago, H slipped up in MC and mentioned something about his 2 former stepchildren with this woman. He had been lying to me for 4 years that she had no children. Not that it matters now, but why lie about something like that?

So in summary, he's had 4 divorces. I will be #5.

I apologize I wasn't able to keep my reply more brief, as it's a pretty complicated story.

I'm curious... .does it matter now?  Does it matter to you?

Does he think it matters now?

How was this addressed in MC?  Has it been addressed in MC?

I'll wait on these answers before sharing anymore thoughts.

FF

hows it going today and yesterday?

whats the situation like? has it changed?

Update... .
BPDH has moved out. He took everything he owns and left yesterday to temporarily live with his mother until he finds a new place. He said he met with a lawyer and he is filing for divorce this week.

On Friday night everything had seemed better - we had a good talk; discussed moving forward with MC. He was calm & rational & said that he made an appointment with a lawyer but cancelled it after we talked. He said that he still loves me and should not have said he doesn't.

Saturday morning he left to go wash his car, as he usually does. He was gone for several hours, when I texted him while he was at the carwash and asked him to call me so I could ask him to pick up something at the store for me. I got a shockingly cold reply from him that he doesn't want to speak to me and just to text him instead. I was confused and asked him why he couldn't just give me a quick call. No response. That's when I knew he wasn't at the car wash. He was at his divorce attorney's office. He told me when he got home that he was in fact meeting with his lawyer and had lied to me about it so I wouldn't get upset or try to persuade him not to go through with it. He also said he lied about still being in love with me. He is not.

I was in shock. I thought we'd worked things out (at least for now). I got very upset - anxious and crying. He agreed to wait a while to move out and would start gradually moving his things to his mother's house "eventually." At this point, I couldn't be around him and had to leave to go to a hotel for the night. When I came home in the morning, he was in the process of moving out all of his things. He said he decided not to wait and was leaving that day for good.

I tried to talk to him about not rushing into this and let's instead do a trial separation. He refused, saying that his lawyer said a separation is more expensive than a divorce. He still wants to attend our upcoming MC session for "closure." So I got him to agree to hold off on the divorce filing until we see her this Wednesday. I'm hoping by then that he will have calmed down and be thinking more clearly so that the MC can give some suggestions for maybe not rushing into this and we can talk about a trial separation instead. I realize I'm hoping against hope here, but it's my last shot to save the marriage.

In the meantime, I'm living alone without any physical help & I'm feeling horribly lonely & heartbroken.

 

What can you do to be extra kind to yourself?

What do you want to say at next MC?

FF

I'm trying to be kind to myself by setting up a larger support system. I told my father, stepmother, and good neighbor/friend that he has moved out. I'm keeping myself distracted by trying to keep busy so I don't get too depressed. I'm also in the process of switching to a new individual T, as my current T does not provide me enough feedback.

MC is tomorrow night and I'm trying to get prepared. The main objective is try to get him to agree to a trial separation instead of going full-steam ahead with the divorce. He said that he still "loves me from a distance," so that's something to work with. I spoke with H on the phone briefly yesterday and told him that my father (who is equally in shock), agreed to find me & pay for the best divorce lawyer in the city. I reminded him that this means a divorce is going to financially devastate him and I don't want to see that happen to him. I asked him about a trial separation and he said no, but that we could still discuss it in MC.


This will be his 5th divorce. Each time he has divorced, he has gone running back to his old neighborhood to live with his abusive mother. I reminded him that he is a good man who deserves to be loved, not abused. He had no reply. It's painful for me to watch him revert to his old patterns of letting himself be abused.

   

I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this.

I hope you can take time and look at this from the "big picture". 

Are you chasing after him... .asking him to stay... .(in some capacity) or are you letting him go and telling him you will watch his actions?

He understands the financial devastation... .he has done this many times before.  Any reason to remind him?

I understand that you don't want this to happen, but I assure you that "asking" or "pleading" or "negotiating" with him for a TS is going to be perceived by him as "chasing".  He is "pushing" you away and you are "pulling" him towards you.

For pwBPD... generally the wrong thing to do for push pull is to "go against" their signal.  If they pull, you pull to but a little less.  If they push, push but a little less.

However, you really need to look at the big picture.  This isn't his first rodeo.

I'm so sorry... .

How can you express disappointment at MC and let him know you are available for a TS. 

FF

I read your story. I'm so sorry you have to get through this. This stuff is tough.

Get all the support that you need- new therapist, your dad, if you are religious, maybe talk to the priest and pray for your emotional healing and recovery. 

I just came from the appointment with my T... .before me, in her office was the person with BPD (as I later found out) and I could hear loud voices, quarreling, shouting... .I could not help to hear some of the issues- gambling issues, ex girlfriends... .my T is a kind and thoughtful woman but even she was taken aback.

Later she told me once again how in dealing with people with BPD, it's the best cut your loses and run and don't look back. "Your best case scenario is being forgotten by then and not associated with them". She couldn't stress enough the importance of not engaging with them and holding your distance.

Not so long ago, you wrote that you had to get medical help because of the mental breakdown he caused you. Honey, trust me, that wouldn't be the only breakdown if you stayed with him.

There is a reason why this disorder has such a stigma and why licensed professionals don't like working with them. You wrote that your therapist also had to recuperate after his verbal attack.
We are not equipped to deal with pwBPD. They are not like us.

This divorce might be the greatest act of mercy you'll ever get from him. He won't get better. He'll never return nowhere near the idealization phase. From now to eternity, there's only hell with him.

I am no longer chasing, pleading, pulling, or asking him to stay. Those days are over. I am letting him go, if that is what he wants.
Re: The financial devastation: It's been many years, so I am reminding him what may be in store for him.

I will not be expressing disappointment at MC. My primary objective is to let him know that I am available for TS. If that is not what he wants, then I have the remainder of his possessions ready to go in my car to give to him after the session, if need be, so that he has no reason to ever come back to our home again.

Why remind him... .why not just let him figure it out, natural consequences of his actions.

I'm not aware of any responsibility you have to make sure he remembers things.  Focus on what you need to do... .

Hang in there.

FF

I too have been reading your story, bananas2, and just wanted to come and give you a big hug   
It's horrible that things had been improving and have now gone south so quickly.

He says he is not doing DBT and is doing CBT. I wonder what this is bringing up and possibly triggering in him. You have no way of knowing what he is saying in T and what his T is recommending (based on what your H says)... .And with BPD, that can be anything in the moment.

For now, all you can do is move forward with protecting yourself - gathering a support network to help you through this, finding a place and home care, trying to distract yourself from the pain and confusion by doing things that give you some pleasure when you can.

And if it does come to divorce, please take him to the cleaners! You will need the money and he sure needs the lesson!

I'm sure this is devastating for youbananas2... .remember to focus on you now 

bananas2,

I am so sorry to hear about the latest turn of events.  I am glad you've reached out to family to bolster your support, and that you will have good legal representation to make sure your needs are met with regards to finances and care/assistance needs.

You didn't mention any additional assistance being lined up to help you around your home with daily needs related to your disability.  Do you have help lined up there?  As you know, the physical challenges add to your total stress load, so getting the right help there is an important part of your self care.  Can you let us know how you're doing in that regard?

Please keep us posted.

 

WW

I haven't been able to line up any assistance with activities of daily living. I do have a very helpful neighbor, but as my condition worsens, I will need more help. I'll be looking into that soon through the insurance company and my doctor.

Latest development:
He texted me this morning and said he is not going to attend the MC appointment tonight bc it would make him "too uncomfortable." So unless he changes his mind (I doubt it), there is no hope for a trial separation. I'm currently trying to get him to answer me about when he intends to file the divorce papers and if he is going to take the $2000 retainer fee from our joint account.
My only leverage right now is that he is asking to talk to me about dividing up the finances, but I have so far not replied. If he withdraws a significant amount of money, then that's going to be a problem for him when we go to court. "Go to court" - I can't believe I'm typing those words.
This is so sudden & shocking.

In a matter of weeks, he's gone from trying to improve our r/s to being completely cold and callus. It's almost sociopathic. It's as if he's a different person now. It breaks my heart.

Thank you my BPD family for all your support. It means the world to me. 

"I will be at MC tonight.  Please keep your commitment you made to be there."

I would suggest that you go.  Don't fight with him about this... but don't let him off the hook.

Does he have access to his own funds to pay retainer?  Do you have a lawyer lined up?

I'm still getting this sense that you are "chasing" after him for answers... .perhaps I'm misreading.

What is there really to talk about.

You don't agree to joint funds being spent on divorce... period.  No more debate.  He may spend them... .but instead of debating it... settle it in court.

Same with MC... .you are going... you expect him to keep his commitments.  No more debate, but don't expect him to show.

Do you see the mindset I'm trying to get you to shift to?

FF

Thank you, FF. I did tell him in text that I would be there tonight and explained that I expected him to be there too, as he had promised. I left it at that. I do not expect him to show.

He does not have access to his own funds for the retainer. All of our funds are joint, and I will not agree to him using our funds to pay his lawyer. He will have to borrow the money from someone. As a matter of fact, I am not agreeing to discuss any finances with him whatsoever. That will be done through my lawyer. I have one lined up, but want to ask the marriage counselor tonight if she can recommend one. If she knows someone, I will compare with the one I have in mind, make a decision and call tomorrow. If he stops depositing his paychecks in our account, he is in for a world of hurt. I know my disability law, and that is financial abandonment of a disabled person. 

I've stopped "chasing" answers. The only thing I've asked of him is to let me know when he intends to file or if he has done so already. I'd just like a "heads up," but at this point, it looks like I'm going to just get served without any notice. I fully intend to have an attorney tomorrow.

Does anyone know if it is admissible in court to give video/audio evidence even if it was obtained without consent? I fear he has video/audio of me being extremely upset with him after I found out he cheated on me/lied to me. I'm sure it portrays me in a bad light, especially if he recorded only the parts of me being angry but having eliminated the parts about his cheating/lying.

Experiencing the same exact thing right now.  uBPDw has had $5,000 in cash on hand for a retainer for months... .  Now its non stop I hate you, you're a terrible father, get out, followed by "I've already moved on with someone"... ."I've started the process"... .and yes the $5,000 is no longer in the house... .

It is crazy how fast things can change in their world. 

I wish you some peace and good luck. 
-Oz

Thanks, Oz. I'm so sorry you are experiencing the same. Please PM me if you need some extra support. I'll do my best.

Have you ever hired an attorney before?  Been through divorce before? 

I would recommend talking to at least 2... .they usually do free consultations.  Depending on how savvy you are at hiring lawyers you may want to talk to more.  I really hope you can be comfortable with someone.

Fortunately/unfortunately I've had to hire and work with tons of lawyers over the years.  I get a sense pretty quick if they are going to work or not.

Ask if your state is "one party consent" or not (about the recording).

FF

bananas2,

How did the MC session tonight go?  Did you at least get some good solo time with the MC?

On the recording question, I know enough here to be dangerous.  But let me come at this from a different angle.  So many of the things that happened with my wife that I was embarrassed about or could otherwise have been used for emotional blackmail just evaporated when I talked to my lawyer.  There are buckets of stuff that are upsetting and embarrassing but are part of being human and just don't matter in a court case.  The thought of those tapes coming out must be very upsetting.  There is a good chance they'll never see the light of day.  I'd recommend trying not to worry about it until you talk to your lawyer.  Spend your energy finding a good lawyer.

I echo formflier's advice about talking to several lawyers.  It is an important relationship, and you'll get a feel quickly for some of the red flags.  For example, if the lawyer is hard to get a hold of or doesn't return calls, that's not good.  My lawyer gets back to me usually within a day, always within two, and faster if there is a legitimate reason.  Also, your lawyer needs to be a good listener.  It's OK if they cut you off if you start to get repetitive -- for what you're paying, that's a good thing -- but they need to listen to and understand your concerns.  It's a service business, after all!  Plus, if they are able to build rapport with you, you will more easily be able to trust their advice.  I talked to six lawyers before selecting mine.  She works in a small specialized practice with just two partners and three associates, in a converted house in a nearby small city.  If there is a relevant area where you may have some knowledge they don't, such as disability issues, you'll want a lawyer who is confident but open enough to listening to your input there.

As a first step, I'd recommend reading "Splitting," by Bill Eddy and Randi Krieger.  There is a section on picking a lawyer.  Don't wait for delivery, I'd download it on Kindle and start reading.

Finally, I am so so sorry for this awful outcome.  It must be devastating.  The sudden flip does not mean that the love was not real -- it likely is an awful effect of the illness, with his defense mechanisms kicking in.  I am sorry that you have to bear this pain

Keep us posted.  I'm sorry this is a terrible, terrible, time, but you are not alone.



WW

Hibananas2,

There is so much going on here I don't quite know where to jump in! Firstly let me offer a great big   to you! I feel like I have been living identical parts of this narrative myself in the last few weeks. I got the "I don't love you"... .I thought we were fixing things, then we weren't... .trips and calls to the divorce lawyer... .negotiations, offers, than all suddenly (seemingly) dropped, etc.

One thing I know is these relationships aren't over til when you think they are... .but in a way... .they are not on either. I hate that we are in these kinds of limbo situations and it often seems like the only way out is what we do ourselves to finally end it.

Others here have a lot of wisdom and insights, as I am struggling a lot myself lately I just want to send   and   's and wish you some peace as you get through this tough, tough time.

~pearl.

Hibananas2,

It's been a little while.  How are you doing?

 

WW