BPDFamily.com

I am a very worried mom for my son.  His fiance is suspected (don't know if she is diagnosed or not) to have BPD.  She is the strangest person I have ever met and goes against everything my son has been taught growing up.

She has a child with another man (when my son first met her) and they have a son together.  She is never home, always working, (but she lies quite a bit) and this April she is going on an overseas trip with another man.  This is the fourth trip in the three years we have known her that she is going on a trip with another man for "something."  

I don't know how much to reveal on here but I am afraid for not only my son getting hurt but for the two children.  Her daughter just told her the other day that she never gets to see her anymore and misses her.  When she is home, all she wants my son to do is take her out to eat or go shopping.

She uses filthy language but only when her parents are around, who do not mind it at all, it seems.  I feel like I am in a nightmare that is lasting almost 4 years and waiting to wake up!

Her life is nothing but chaos and lies.  

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Thank you for any help!

Desparate!

HI Angies59,

Welcome to the forum. I can see why you would be concerned over the behaviour your mention, it must be very difficult for you. But you have not mentioned anything that would pre suppose (or rule out) BPD. Could you expand more on how your DIL behaves emotionally ? What's your son's take on all this ?
 

Hi Angie59,

*welcome*

Id like to join HappyChappy and welcome you to bpdfamily. I can understand the anxiety when introducing a new person to your kids. This is a safe anonymous place where you can express your thoughts and feelings without being invalidated. I’d like echo HappyChappy can you tell us more maybe we can find something that correlates with BPD?

Hi Angie59,

*welcome*

I'd like to join HappyChappy in welcoming you to the community. I can understand your worry about your son, especially as you witness chaos and lies from his wife.

You've found a great place for support. The site has members who understand, and tools that can help improve your relationship with your son and his family.

Do you see your grandson and son, DIL often?

Keep posting. We are here for you.

heartandwhole

Hello,

I am new here and I had a reply to my post and don't know how to get back to it to respond!   

I was asked to explain the emotions of my son's fiance' who we believe has BPD.  She has not been diagnosed by a professional.  My son has a Master's Degree in Psychology and thinks that she fits that best, but I am making it clear that she has not been diagnosed as such.  I know she has been diagnosed with depression and was prescribed Prozac, but that is all I know.  She never discusses it with us.


Her emotions are such that you never know what you're going to get.  You can ask a simple question, like what do you want me to bring to the bar-b-que and have her go off in a rage.  You can see her one day and she will be so friendly you won't believe it.  Her emotions are sort of up and down and all over the place.  As a mom, she seems as if she cannot tolerate her children and wants to be gone all the time from the house.  She did leave her child (our grandbaby) with someone she knew used drugs - not once but twice. 

If anyone can be of any help, I would appreciate it.  Perhaps I'm still not giving enough information and if not, please let me know and I will be happy to answer any questions.  I feel like I am in a nightmare and waiting to wake up.

I suffer from anxiety and depression and this whole situation has made my own emotional state go crazy.  I think about the situation when I wake, went I go t sleep and all day long.  It is overwhelming me!  Grandpa and I take care of our grandbaby on Thursday and Friday (her mom the other 3 days) and I am so afraid to notdo this anymore for fear of where she will leave him.

I hope to hear back from someone.  I am so glad I found this place!

Angie59

hi Angie59, id like to join the others and say *welcome*

do i have it right that its your son is the one who suspects BPD? is he the fiance of the person in question?

have the two of you discussed it? if so, whats his take?

your sons fiance does sound pretty difficult. the Lessons at the top of the board to the right (click here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108307) can really help you better understand her behaviors, and how to navigate them, as well as psychology tools to help you cope.

additionally, we have a whole host of workshops that discuss communication techniques, strategies, dos and donts, that sort of thing. you can find it here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=36.0

it can be extra difficult to navigate with anxiety and depression, and i imagine your circumstances are really taking a toll. are you seeing, or have you considered seeing, a doctor or therapist? self care is really critical!

Hello and thank you so much for the warm welcome.  I think this site will be very helpful to myself as well. 

Sometimes I get to going on a rant and don't explain things well.  I have two sons, one 32 and one 28.  No daughters.  The 28-year-old is the one who has the girlfriend/fiance' who we suspect has BPD.  Now, my son does not suspect anything as far as I know.  He is so much in love with her I don't think he can see his hand in front of his face! 

We are a conservative family and her and her parents' ways are so different from we are.  Going on a trip with another man out of the country (and they just go engaged!), and leave two children behind with my son who works a full time job and then some, just does not seem normal to me.  However, after she told us, we have not said a word to her about it nor did we say anything to our son, where we usually would before. 

Both children, as well as herself currently have no insurance.  We had insurance on our children as soon as they entered the world.  There is a lot of neglect going on there and a lot of things I feel are inappropriate for a mother to act.  I know I am sounding very judgmental, but worries are for the safety and well-being of my grandkids and of course as a mom, I hate seeing my son treated as a doormat! 

This has been going on for almost 4 years now.  Her moods are very erratic, life is very chaotic, she is almost never home with her and my son and kids, and being around her has been hell, to put it bluntly.  She also lies about things all the time and contradicts herself.  Most of the time, she leaves the house looking like a prostitute (great example for her daughter), and it leaves me with a broken heart to see all of this.

Any help would be appreciated. 

Thank you again for your warm welcome!  I'm glad to be here.

Hi Angie59

You are right that leaving children behind and going away with another man is not usual behaviour, but if someone cannot cope a common reaction is to run away or take a break. Depression can be a symptom of not coping. Mood swings could be Bi Polar, BPD or a bunch of other things. Probably the best thing is to encourage your DIL to visit the Drs and get a diagnosis. But if she’s on Prozac sounds like she has visited. Has she been referred to a psychiatrist ? Talking therapies can often help with depression and anxiety, has your DIL tried this yet ? Like you, I suffer from depression and anxiety due to BPD behaviour, and found talking therapies help immensely, have you considered therapy for your anxiety ?

If your DIL does have BPD then it will be incredibly hard for you to change her behaviour, and the best thing you can do is encourage her to walk towards people that can help her, such as Drs and a Therapists. The most important lesson I learnt was to stop tying to save my BPD, and look to change how I viewed things, through Therapy. The other things you can do is learn techniques to get the best out of someone with BPD. There are many of these lessons available on this forum, such as using S.E.T. or not using J.A.D.E etc... Someone with BPD can wind us up very effectively and this forum can be very good at unwinding things by grounding us. a BPD will invalidate your feelings, but this form can then validate (if it is valid). So think of this a free expert advice from those that were brought up with someone with a BPD.

One last suggestion, try not to criticise a BPD, they have black and white thinking. If you criticise them, for leaving the kids for example, they assume you are the enemy and will fight you and cut you out. They will always isolate your son and grandchildren from any and all perceived enemies. So rather than critise about leaving the kids, offer to baby sit. I know it deserves criticism, but if she is BPD then different rules apply. Three of my grandparents gave up on my BPD but one persisted. Her visits were a God send because their behaviour will be far better if an outsider is watching. Does any of this help  you ?
 

Thank you HappyChappy for your response, questions and advice.  I will definitely check out this website for more help.

To answer a few of your questions, yes, she must be seeing someone in order to get her Prozac, and I do believe she is seeing a therapist as I did see a receipt from one.  However, unfortunately I cannot just come out and ask her this question.  She would think this is very personal and would not want to discuss any of it with me.  She is not "approachable" at all.  I know her well enough by now that you would never ask her that question about mental health care.  So I do not know what she has been diagnosed with.  My son tells us depression, which I don't question, but her behavior seems to suggest much more.  I have also caught my son in a few lies in order to protect her and show her in a good light.  It is kind of hard to sort fact from fiction when you are aware that someone lies.  Our son has admitted that much to us, and has told us that she does lie. 

She can be very nice to you one day and then you can call with a very normal question such as, "what do you want me to bring to the barbeque" and she will give the phone to my son, and be yelling in the background, she doesn't know, she doesn't care what we bring, just bring soda or something, she doesn't care.  It is very hurtful to me when she does this.

Please, anyone, tell me if I am doing something wrong here.  I am in need of help as how to handle this woman without damaging my son and grandson's relationship with us.  That would just kill me if that happened.

Oh yes, you did ask about babysitting.  We babysit on a regular basis Thursday and Friday every week.  It is a very, very long day (about 10 hours) and we do not get any appreciation for this either.  She comes home sometimes with ice cream or food to eat and sits there and eats in front of us!  I was just raised so different, I have tried and tried to get over this and let things go, and just when I think I do, she does something else that sets my husband and I on fire.  We are just so, so confused by her behavior.

Help please!

Angie59

I'd suggest you seek some help from a therapist on how to calmly approach your son about these issues.  Having been in several BPD relationships myself, the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) can drain one's ability to see the severity of their own situations... .and even reality.  It is a drain own their own mental and emotional well being... .If communicated in the wrong fashion, you may very well make your own circumstances harder.  Understanding and validation is probably what he needs... .
Having a professional can help you in understanding the pitfalls that lay before you... .and better prepare you for the reactions you may face. 

Hi Angie

I would agree with drained1996 therapy can only help. Might encourage your BPD to go the same way, if she thinks its a fashionable status symbol.

The more you recount, the more BPD like behaviour your mention. So you say she doesn’t like people asking personal questions , a BPD needs personal details to manipulate you, so they assume that’s why you’re asking them. So unless they think its will impress you they don’t like you prying.  The yelling in the background on the phone, is probably purposeful, someone with BPD will deride their enemy in order to keep you in your place, on the back foot. Attack is the best form of defence, is common with a BPD.

The fact you are allowed to baby site for 10 hours, is actually a really good sign. It shows a level of trust, which is hard for a BPD to show. You won’t get appreciation, as a BPD feels entitled to help, but I’m sure your grandchildren and son appreciate this. A BPD struggles to give unconditional love, so if you can give this your grandchildren, as I’m sure your son does, this will help big time in their cognitive development.  I got it mostly from my friends as my BPD scared everyone away and wouldn’t allow anyone in her house. So your DIL is an improvement on that.

 C<||| You asked "what are we doing wrong". A BPD will criticise continually, its hard wired in them. It's very rare that they will change, because the can not accept they are less than perfect, so believe you must change. So possibly the only wrong thing you may be doing, is to expect a BPD to change. A reasonable expectation for most people, but not a BPD. Could that be it ?

You will never get a placid BPD, there will always be arguments. Use S.E.T. (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0;all) and not J.A.D.E (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0;all). A BPD will purposefully kick off arguments, because that is where they are strongest. You won’t win an argument with them, I’ve seen my BPD and NPD rage for a full week on the same argument, including breaking thing and screaming until they go horse. They will wear you down, and they can not back down. That’s why Trump vs Kim young Un is perceived to be so dangerous.

Another way of doing this is medium chill, where you just don’t rise to any of the provocations, but you don’t ignore them. So “yes dear” type responses. I know it’s hard, but your grandchildren will be appreciative. Most importantly, if you are baby sitting regularly, you’d spot anything particularly worrying developments, but it you’re locked out, a BPD can hide things and get her Husband to fall in line, extremely well. Don’t get locked out. Best of luck. Your DIL brining ice cream back just for herself - never forget they are emotional suck in many respects at age 8. Bless.

 

Dear Drained1996,

Yes, I have already been to many counselors and even went to group therapy over this.  I did learn a lot and I know changing my reactions to it are essential to my mental health as well.  I guess because it is my son and I see what is going on there, my emotions can get the best of me out of protection for him.

I am not seeing anyone right now due to financial reasons.  There have been more therapists that did not help me than did.  One of these was a fabulous counselor and did help me quite a bit; however, she does not accept my insurance.  I cannot afford her cost of $100.00 per session right now.

I try to read books and now found this website to try to get help.  You are right.  My son needs understanding and not anger.  I have not even mentioned the trip she is taking out of the country with another man who is her "friend."  I just keep on loving him and supporting him and try to avoid talking about her.

He is not "street smart" but academically smart.  Sometimes I think he knows things are not right, but he either tries to convince himself that they are or just compartmentalizes, I don't know.  He has total care of the two children, one of which is a little girl who is not even his.  He cares for her and loves her as if she is his own.

I feel she is a liar, master manipulator, and is making a fool of my son.  This is mom is so angry about that, I can't seem to get past it. 

Thank yo so much for your thoughts and your reply.

Dear HappyChappy,

Thank you so much for your response.  You certainly brought up a lot of good points.  I appreciate your help.  I have probably been told this before in one of my responses, but how do I get to S.E.T?  Is this a separate web site or is it on this website?

SET and a few others are here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0

Good to hear you have had support from a T.  We get that there are some out there that are not overly helpful, and it's good to hear you've at least had the opportunity to have one that helped your situation well.  Completely understand the financial part... .and glad you have found this place as there is plenty of support and educational material here to help you in your circumstance.  The emotional support and understanding as well as the educational material you can find here can be unmatched if you are willing to continue participating! 



You've been directed to SET and to avoid Jade'ing by several other posts.  It's not easy stuff to be able to do all the time, but can certainly help your process.  I learned in my own process that anger was one of my own worst enemies.  I'll ask, where is your anger directed?     
A large portion of us here were or are in the same boat as your son... .so we understand.  What does he think about his relationship with her and the care of the children? 

Good morning!

We (my husband and I) have been to quite a few counselors on how to deal with all of this.  Setting boundaries has been talked about extensively.

We have talked to our son numerous times and all he does is defend her.  He said no one better say anything about her now, since they are engaged.  We did not start out the conversation or continue it by yelling or showing anger, just concern for him.  He is extremely defensive.

We tried to set boundaries with the BP; his fiance' and she is not approachable at all.  In fact, the boundary we set was very simple.  Since her work schedule varies each Thursday and Friday, we asked for her schedule as soon as she receives it, so we can schedule anything we may want to do accordingly.  She did it one time, and now texts us the schedule usually on Wednesday night. 

Her daughter is terrible, but usually only around her.  She is 4 years old and goes to daycare.  One morning as she tried to get her ready for school, which is always a battle, the little girl shouted at her mom, "I hate you," "I want you to shut up," and the anger in her face was unbelievable.  She put her in time-out and the little girl screamed at her from the chair, continued to try to get up, scratched her mother, and then threw the chair across the room.

Because we have our grandson there, we worry about his safety in this environment.  She has done various things to him that make us feel she may hurt him some day seriously.

I don't mean to not take any of your suggestions.  They are all very much appreciated and good suggestions.  We just do not know what to do at this point.  We feel so desperate.  My husband is able to "compartmentalize" all this and at least go on with other things.  I, on the other hand, because of my anxiety, tend to dwell on it and it is making my own life difficult.  Ugh!

I am willing to continue on here.  It's all I feel I have left.

i want to second the advice of drained1996 that understanding and validation are very important when it comes to your son. consistent support (not validating the invalid or rewarding bad behavior) is critical. it can give him strength, help set a good example, and if the relationship were to end tomorrow, he would need to know that support would exist.

its important to avoid stepping into the role of persecutor, or rescuer. learning how to navigate the karpman drama triangle can really help you here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

Unfortunately she's probably repeating what she has seen, or this is her defense mechanism to not receiving what she needs emotionally as a small child.  Either way... .certainly not her fault.  And of course it does speak directly to the probability that your DIL has BPD traits based on your prior posts.  
Your son seems caught up in the FOG of a not so healthy relationship, and we here understand how debilitating being in that position can be... .no matter how educated one may be.  I will say to you... .it's not easily understandable if you have not been there yourself... .I've tried to have conversations with people who know me well about my BPD experiences, and they always look like a deer in headlights.    
Boundaries are your only friend... .even if your son becomes included in those boundaries.  It's up to him to realize his own situation and he is the only one who has the ability to fix that.  

Hi Angie59,

FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail has been mentioned several times so I wanted to share a link on that if you hadn't seen it already.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

If your son is like so many here it is likely that he is experiencing a lot of FOG.  People with BPB use the fact that we are nice, polite, want to do the right thing and don't like to make a scene against us.  Your nice son who has been raised well, is doing the "right" thing or at least would be the right thing if she didn't have BPD traits... .he's marrying the mother of his son, he is making a commitment he is sticking to his commitment, he is trying to work on his relationship with her and be a father to his son.  All of those qualities are admirable and all of those qualities are a double edged sword because they are being used by his fiance to hold on to him.  Remember fear of abandonment is at the heart of BPD.

It is important that you are there for your son, that the door is always open, and that you listen, but you can't do this for him, you can't make him do the things you wish he would, you can't control his decisions they are his to make.  He may need to learn some things the hard way and as a parent that is soo incredibly hard to watch because we want to protect our kids.  Try to let go of trying to control, you can't control anyone but yourself and the role you play here.  Your son is going to do what he is going to do and so is his fiance.  You don't want to put your son in the position to have to choose you or his fiance... .you don't want to put him in the middle.  Try to focus on the relationship you have with your son nurture it and do your best to stay off the drama triangle because that never goes well.

Take Care,
Panda39

Good morning everyone!

I would like to say thank you to drained 1996 and Panda 39 for your responses. I have read the Triangle article about keeping drama going and could identify with this.  I also have ordered the book FOG on my Kindle so I have that on hand.

You are right, my son has actually spoken those very words when his dad and I have gotten into arguments about the BP.  He has stated he is always in the middle. 

Since I have found out about her trip out of the country in April and the pot offer, as well as a bar fight she got into that I forgot to mention, I have said nothing of these things to my son.  We have taken that step to keep communications open to him and let him know we are always here for him.  He really tries so hard to shine a good light on the BP.  Yes, I know I am being a mom and my heart hurts for my son.  He is a very good person, and that doesn't just come from me being partial.  Many people have said that to me and I just feel he doesn't deserve this type of treatment.  However, I also know she is who he chose and we will have to accept that. 

I have just started the book FOG and I am also reading S.E.T.  I appreciate all of your responses.

Just to understand better, just one question.  Why is she always "gone" from her home and family?  Fear of abandonment seems to be a strong trait in BPs, so why do they do things such as always being gone if they are the ones who fear abandonment.  I feel she is the one who is abandoning them!   

Just trying to understand all of this,

Angie 59

What is she out doing?  Is her absence keeping your son engaged with her?

Panda39

She is working two jobs which equal about 35-40 hours a week, so can't fault her for that.

When she has time off, she is getting tatoos, going to clubs, getting bikini waxes done, buying extremely expensive makeup, etc.  She told us she was at a bar the other night, a girl and her began to fight (verbally), and my DIL left the bar and began walking down a route that is not safe at all, with her drink in hand of course.  I guess she left her car there. 

The sad part is, our grandson is only 1-1/2 years old but her daughter is 4 and she told her the other the day, "Mommy I don't ever see you anymore; I miss you." 

She will be gone for a whole week in April out of the country with another guy.

My son's reaction to the trip was, "Well this is great time, we just got engaged!" 

I am reading the book FOG right now hoping to understand him and all of this craziness. 

I admit it - I am stuck in an angry place.  I do so want to love her like a daughter and feel she is part of the family, but boy she sure makes it hard!

Angie59

i think that this, and her attitude, speak to the impulsive nature of someone with BPD traits. there is little if any thought of consequences or long term effects, for oneself or others.

it also sounds like she struggles to cope, and prefers to escape.

I agree a lot of selfish immature stuff going on with your son's fiance.

Sounds like she is using your son's sense of responsibility to get him to take care of all of her responsibilities while she just runs off and does whatever she wants.

What do you think your son is getting out of this relationship?

Panda39

Thank you Panda39 and once removed for your replies. 

Panda39 you asked what my son may be getting out of this relationship.  We (my husband and I) have asked that same question so many times. 

I have no idea if I am even close to what it is, but my theory on it is that he does know the things she does are odd or not quite right; however, feels that the alternative is worse?  I'm not sure.

To clarify that, I mean the alternative being leaving the relationship.  The house they are in is his house and he is the only one on the title right now.  He could tell her to leave and remain in his house, but that would mean  (BP's daughter) would have to leave as well.  He would never do that.  He loves her as his own.  She was on 5 months old when he met BP and is now 4.  It would really tear him up with her no longer in his life. 

He just seems to be blinded by love.  This is his first really serious relationship and he doesn't really have anything to compare it to; but he still must know her behavior isn't quite right.  I'm sure he doesn't enjoy being alone 90% of the time with just the kids.  He just wants a family.  My heart breaks for him. 

Also to "once removed," I totally see what you are saying regarding her impulsivity.  You are absolutely right.  She does not think of consequences.

The short time I have been on this forum, I have had my eyes opened many times and my feelings seem to have been validated.  Wonderful place to be!

Dear Panda39,

I overlooked a question you asked me a few posts ago in which you asked if I thought BP's absence is keeping my son engaged to her.  I'm not quite sure I understand the question.  Can you clarify?

Thank you!

Part of the FOG you are learning about.  Using a child to help employ that doesn't seem an uncommon theme in this forum.  Using the tools such as SET, and avoiding JADE'ing and also reading and learning as much as you can about a BPD situation can help you learn to communicate and react better to negative situations.  You cannot control your possible soon to be DIL, and you cannot control your son.  You can however change how you may react to them in a manner better fit for yourselves by understanding and utilizing some of the information that has already been shared with you here.  
It's not easy, but you've found the right place for support.  Keep posting, you'll find support and advice/experience from many who have walked the mile that lays before you.   
  

What I was thinking was, is her trip with this man making him jealous, is being the "responsible one" while she's out gallivanting around making your son resentful?  Because FOG and positive emotions will keep him engaged or attached to her but so will negative emotions,s  if she is BPD or has BPD traits the whole world has to revolve around her... .all attention must be on her and negative attention is still attention. 

It might help you to get your son's perspective by reading posts on the relationship boards or even post some questions there.

I see this trip with the other guy as a way to see how far she can push your son's boundaries and get some extra attention from the other guy as an added bonus.  The thing is that she is going to do what she is going to do, no one can control another person.  Your son only has control over what he does and for whatever reason (because he really thinks it's okay or emotional blackmail) he has chosen to let the trip happen without complaint (or at least complaint you know about - there could be more going on behind the scenes)

I am with you this trip with another man is totally inappropriate for a newly engaged woman. 

Panda39

That and pretty much everything Panda pointed out.  You only have control over how you react to the stimulus that is given by either... .as a couple or singular.  It's your job to use the tools you find here and in T to react to them in the most responsible way for yourselves.  You cannot control either of them... .nor their feelings. You can however control how you react to them.  Controlling your reactions  can be a really good first step into setting some healthy boundaries... .boundaries both you and your son can possibly benefit from in the future.  

Thank you Panda39 and drained1996 for your replies.  It has helped validate my own feelings.  I am really learning a lot on this site, but I do know a T would also help immensely.  It is just crazy how a BP in your life can turn your world upside down and even make you question yourself and your feelings.  After she announced the trip, my first thought was, this is just not right (which I felt 3 times before when she took a trip with another guy).  Then I sit there and say, "Am I just being a prude?"  Maybe I need to be more open-minded, or maybe because he trusts her, it's okay. 

My husband, older son and I have even gotten into arguments about her and the situation. 

Your replies mean so much to me and I am learning what others would feel and that I'm not crazy. 

I want to give back my help someday to everyone on here, as I feel like it's all questions from me getting help for myself, and not giving anyone else advice.  I am so in the throes of all of this, I don't feel I am in a place to give anyone else advice.  I hope I can someday, however. 

By the way, my son would never get on this board (which I sure wish he would) because I touched on the subject of BP before with him and he just laughed and said, no she isn't like that!  Complete denial!  So, when I talk with him I keep it light and don't talk about BP anymore as I want to keep my relationship with him and be there for him when things get worse - which I pretty much believe they will.  Over the past 4 years, they have progressed rather rapidly.

Thank you again so much for your replies and wisdom. 

Yep deinial or completely immersed in the FOG for the moment anyway.  In mentioning BPD you might have just planted a little seed that could bear fruit later you never know.  I wouldn't mention it again but wait and see.  |iiii


Yes, just be there for your son (and the grand kids the more stability in their lives the better).

Take Care,
Panda39

there are many members in similar situations. some walking in your shoes, some having already walked in your shoes, and some arriving just behind you. everyone in similar circumstances can benefit from each other immensely. not only will you feel less alone, but it can help you gauge your own journey, your own responses, and youll often find yourself giving insight you didnt know you had. plus youve got a headstart on the tools and info, and youre learning fast!

Dear Drained1996,

It is really scary to see what BPs can do, especially to someone you love so much as your child.  I know that therapy is in order here.  Finances just don't allow it.

So I am reading as much material as I possibly can, many books which are recommended on this website, and trying to learn on my own.  It's funny (not really), because just when I think I am making some gains with the BP, sure enough something else will occur.  Then I'm back to being so angry and so concerned for my son and his well-being, not to mention our grandson and granddaughter.  (The granddaughter is not biologically ours, but we have known her since 5 months old and she is now 4, so we love her as our own).  She is the one who you can really see suffering from her mother's behavior.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.  I appreciate it!   :)

Good morning everyone!

I'm just wondering if everyone, or at least some people, have experienced what I am now. 

I have been reading the recommended reading and articles here on this website (not finished yet of course), and even though I understand it; it's like I'm still not getting it really.  I know that didn't make much sense, but once I get away from the reading and explanations, things still make me angry and bewildered. 

I won't give any examples, as I feel I would be so repetitive to what I have already written, but I am still  . 

Which of course makes it so hard to accept her.  I know now what acceptance is.  It doesn't mean you now feel what she does is right, but that you accept she feels that way.  That's even hard for me to do.

We have relatives coming to visit us in May and I feel that I will be so embarrassed for them to meet her.  I feel bad for saying that. 

Has anyone ever felt this way?

Angie59

I guess it's my morning to rant.  I hope everyone is patient with me because I know I am being repetitive.

My son did not even have the money for her engagement ring.  He took out a credit card at the place he bought it.  So he engages to her, and not but a week later, she answers a man's question of, "I am going out of the country for a wedding invite and I don't have a date."  Her reply is, "Well... .I could go."

I'm sorry but I feel the reply should have been, "Can't help you there, I'm engaged."  Does she have absolutely no respect for my son.  It sure does not look like it.  She uses him for everything she wants and then turns around and takes a dump on him.  (Excuse my example)  I am just so, so angry about all this, I can't seem to get past the anger. 

Maybe that's why I'm understanding the material I am reading, but can't seem to put it into action.

When my husband and I go to babysit on Thursday and Friday, the house feels "toxic" to me, just because of what is expected of my son - certainly not her - you can't do things around the house if you are never there!  You have to find a path through all the toys and clothes all over the floor, they generally have "something" we need for our grand baby not there, (milk, food for him, diapers, baby wipes, etc), so my Grandpa goes out and gets it if they are necessities.  The sink is so full of dishes you cannot even manipulate the faucet to get water.  We can never find clean clothes for our grandson, so we have done a few loads of laundry. 

At this point, I don't know if she even works at the place she says she goes to every day.  She has done this once before to us.  Acts like she is going to work and then goes elsewhere - where, I have no idea!

Is seeing a therapist the only answer for me?  Maybe it is, I don't know.

Thanks for listening to me vent!  Today is a really bad day for me.

Angie59

Hi Angie59,

I'm on these boards because my significant other (SO) has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) and they share 2 daughters.

Your post made me smile  :) :) :) when I arrived here I too was one angry woman     I totally relate to seeing the crazy and trying to tell my SO, what I saw but because he was just exiting the crazy he was still doing the dysfunctional dance he had always done in his marriage. The biggest thing that drove me nuts was weak boundaries and the seemingly inability to just say "No".  Every thing had to be some long drawn out rational argument (lots of JADE - Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) when all he needed to say was "No".

His wife was running a parental alienation campaign and his daughters were spying on their dad an reporting back to their mother.  I was like if your daughters love your wife that much then just let them live with her!  Of course that would have been a horrible decision for all concerned.  My SO would never have given up on his daughters and his daughters would have suffered terribly if they lived with their mom full-time. (Their mom was evicted 3 times for example - not to mention the emotional abuse the girls would have suffered). What I overlooked was that they were children 10 & 14 and they had been raised in dysfunction so learned a lot of dysfunctional behaviors themselves.  They had been trained to have no boundaries regarding their mother for example.

So I arrived here, angry at him for what I saw as no backbone, angry at his daughters for siding with their mother against their father and angry at his ex for her crazy and abusive behaviors. 

I should add that neither my SO or I had ever heard of BPD at the beginning of our relationship, it wasn't until at least a year in I discovered BPD by Googling "Chronic Lying" and it took even longer to find this site.

This is a great place to vent, so go for it rant away!  It's better to get it out here than have it cause problems with your relationship with your son. 

I think it just takes some time to get out our own emotions and to be heard before we can start taking in the new information that is provided here. Don't beat yourself up it's a learning curve and it takes time to get this stuff.  I found that the more I posted and read other's posts the more I found little gems that other members shared that made sense in my situation.

When I first found out about BPD I hit my local library and started to read about it.  It helped me to understand what I was dealing with.  Below are a couple of good books about BPD that might help you get a good basic understanding of what it is you and your family are looking at.

Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder by Paul Mason MS and Randi Kreger

Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder: A Family Guide for Healing and Change by Valerie Porr


This is a hard one and takes time to get to.  It's particularly hard because you are a mom and want to protect your son.  How do you accept that she is who she is when it hurts your son and competes with your maternal urge to protect your son?  Maybe just set this as a goal to work towards not something you do today.


I know that it feels to you that she is a reflection on you and your family, but her behaviors are her's.  Trust that your relatives know you and who you are, they know that you don't behave like her or approve of her behaviors.

Her behaviors are on her, they aren't on you and don't own them.


I think a therapist could be helpful, my SO also ended up in therapy because of anger at his ex.  During his divorce he just kept getting the message that he the angry guy and that he needed to get that under control.  But the thing was he had every reason to be angry so it really helped to have someone listen, validate him, and help him with some coping tools. It might help for you too.  (and you always have us here too, for a listening ear)


I can hear your resentment here, your son and his fiance should be doing a better job taking care of the kids and they aren't.  If you can, try to let go of what mom and dad aren't doing and focus on the kids and what they need.  You are in the lucky position to be seeing your grandkids we have members here who have been locked out of their grandchildren's lives.  We also have members here that are children of BPD parents that talk about the positive influence of relatives, teachers, friend's parents in their lives.  Keep being there for the grand kids, and show them another way.

Hang in there, 
Panda39

Dear Drained1996,

I think I have had this exact reply from you before.  I guess my most recent post was asking others on the board if they ever felt the way I'm feeling now.

Confused.

Angie59

So I jumped in the shower, which for me is the thinking booth... .image the wet and soggy Panda with the shower cap on  :)

Anyway was thinking some more... .


But what was really behind the anger?  Lack of control.  I wanted to control everything that everyone was doing... .I was on the outside looking in... .I saw what was wrong... .I wanted to fix, rescue and care take, but I couldn't.  I could only control me and what I did.

An important lesson... .who do we really have control of?  The only people we can control are ourselves, we control our behaviors, feelings, actions we cannot control anyone else.  We cannot make them do what we want them to do if they don't see the problem or don't want to. It's incredibly frustrating, you feel impotent, and you become angry.  

So there I was when I got here... .angry and here you are... .angry.  

The question is what are things that you can do, what do you control?  You control how you manage your relationship with your son, you control how you interact with his fiance, you control how you care for and have a relationship with your grandkids.  You control your emotions, you control what you say and what you do.  You can learn about BPD, you can learn tools that can help in your relationship with your son's fiance that in turn could help your relationship with son and grand kids.

There are lots of things you can do, but you cannot control your son's relationship with his fiance, that is between the two of them.  Sometimes our children must learn some hard lessons the hard way... .it's sucks, it's painful to watch but he is an adult and he will and should make his own choices and decisions, he will make mistakes.  Your job is to be there if and/or when he asks for help.

Try to focus on the relationship you have with your son, nurture it and keep it strong.  Love him, support him, don't jump on the drama triangle and get involved in his marriage (as much as you want to).  

More on the Drama Triangle... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0


I hope this helps,
Panda39

Dear Panda39,

Thanks so much for your advice, support, and understanding.  My husband and I feel very fortunate to be able to see our grandson.  The BP's daughter is in day care all day, so we just have our grandson.  I know how important it is to stay in both of their lives and plan to do so, and just hope my mouth doesn't blurt out something in anger and keep us from doing that.  I don't think I would because I love my grandkids and son too, too much for that.

We have made one mistake, I believe, however.  BP's daughter is 4 now and used to act out terribly (prior posts) so much that we do not feel we can handle her and told my son we could not watch her as well as our grandbaby.  She has settled down some, except from when the BP is around.  Then she seems to do just the opposite of what her mother wants and sets things in motion that way.  Lots of yelling going back and forth between BP and daughter.  The little bit I do see of her, we make over her quite a bit and tell her how much we love her. 

I am worried not only for my son, but for my grandkids as well. 

Just feeling defeated today for some reason.

Thanks again,
Angie59

Is there any chance you all could set a boundary on your sitting?  Maybe you offer to take care of your grandchildren in your own place with some reasonable explanation on how much easier or more comfortable it would be for you all?  That could possibly help diminish some of the uncomfortable circumstances you all face if you travel to them in their toxic environment.  It could also serve the grand kids well to be in a more stable environment for that period of time.  Just asking if that might be something that could be worked without much resistance if done with an understandable reason for your son and his significant other? 

Hello Drained1996!

We have asked them this very question.  We live about 30 minutes away from them, so you see it is okay for us to have to get up at 5:00 a.m. on our days to babysit for them and drive 1/2 hour, but not okay for them to bring him to us because then he would be "too far away from them." 

Granted, I can see their point in a sense.  If I think back to when my kids were little, I don't think I would want them 1/2 hour away either. 

They don't budge one bit for us though and if you haven't noticed, I'm still in an angry stage!   

My husband has had 2 failed back surgeries and their furniture is extremely uncomfortable, which they have admitted themselves.  They said we do need to get new furniture (not happening any time soon), and even when it does, they will not get what he needs which is a recliner.  I said, "Oh maybe you can get a recliner for your dad's back, and the BP said, "I don't like recliners." 

A week later she told us how she was at a friend's house and "just cuddled up in their recliner and slept so good."  Always contradictions.

Sorry, I didn't mean to get into a rant here, but it not only makes me angry, but it is hurtful that they do not even think of our inconveniences or our comfort whatsoever.  We love our little grandson so much though, we put up with it.

I know this all sounds familiar to you.  It's especially hurtful because my son goes right along with it and doesn't even think of us. 

Okay, I'll stop now!

Thanks for your suggestion though and replying.

Angie59
 

I've walked a mile in your shoes with the anger and resentment... .not the exact scenario, but very similar reasons.  Healthy boundaries are a good thing to put in place... .but certainly can be difficult... .especially when you are just starting. 
Remember, you cannot change them (son/dil) you can only change how you all react to and interact with them.  If it's very difficult/uncomfortable on you all to go there to look after the grandchildren... .and especially if it is physically uncomfortable (a great and reasonable boundary I would think) simply make it known that the only way you can continue to help is to have them at your place.  Even if you have to meet halfway or go pick them up in the am yourself... .wouldn't  that environment be better for you and the children?  Just my own 2 cents, I'd make the burden theirs to come pick them up from you.  I'll ask others to chime in on that thought?  Panda? 

I like it drained  |iiii

Angie, if they object because they have to get the kids somewhere, I'd remind you that most parents have to drive the kids to regular daycare this is not anything unusual.  They may grumble but the alternative is to pay for daycare. 

Panda39

Thank you drained and Panda for your replies!

Well, I have to be honest, and I am feeling embarrassed saying this, but I think the reason I find it so hard to speak up is because I'm afraid the BP will become angry, and then talk our son into seeing the kids a lot less (or not at all) if we do so.  I have come close to telling my son that he has to get a different chair for his Dad because he is the main issue as far as comfort with his back issues, or we cannot do it anymore.  I used to chicken to do it!

I figured once he talked to his BP about it, then it would be a done deal and we would be ousted. 

Not to boast, but PawPaw and Grandma spend the whole day with our grandson and he is our focus.  We play with him, dance with him, chase each other around, etc.  I guess I'm just not ready to give that up. 

Does all this make sense?

Angie59
 

For you it is a trade off, putting up with the house & no recliner to see the grandson I totally get that.

But what do you think about asking for a change of location, because of your husband's back issues... .this isn't asking your son or his fiancé to do anything (buy a chair), this isn't criticizing anyone over the state of their house... .this is not critical.

It is about helping them with daycare, it is about seeing the grand kids and it's about your husband's health & comfort. Not having free daycare would put more of a financial burden on them so they might be willing to switch locations.

You know the situation and the players best. If this isn't something you feel comfortable doing now, then just put it in your back pocket it.  Circumstances could change and the idea might make more sense at another time.  No one says you must do anything, we are just throwing out ideas.

Take Care,
Panda39

I obviously have so much to learn from here and once again, am so glad I joined.

To drained1996 and Panda39, thank you both for your suggestions.  I went about this, however, before I read your posts. 

I texted my son and asked him two questions:  Does his son have insurance yet; and since you are getting new furniture anyway, can you please look for something comfortable for Dad?  So I did ask him to get a chair so to speak.

I am so very upset and angry about his reply, I'm sitting here fuming, just where didn't want to be.  I hate this whole situation!

Angie59

This will not work, it comes across as nagging and critical... .back to controlling again.

You can't make them get their son insurance and you can't make them put a chair in their house that they don't want.  You can suggest and you have, but the choice is theirs. 

I know you want the best for everyone, and what you are asking for is completely reasonable but they are going to do what they are going to do.  Nagging and pressuring (trying to control),  is only making everyone angry and frustrated including yourself.

Try to let go and let your son learn the consequences of his actions... .Expensive Medical Bills and less visits from his dad.

Panda39

Hello everyone!

I want to first say I have really appreciated those who have replied to my posts.  Your suggestions, ideas, and empathy have really meant a lot to me.

I'm wondering if anyone else has ever felt the way I'm feeling today.  I feel like I should be wearing a dunce hat or something.  I have read a lot on the Internet, subscribe to a mental health newsletter that includes articles on BPD, and have even caught a few things my son has told me about his fiance (which is the BP in our lives).

I feel kind of dumb because in spite of now also joining this group along with everything else listed above, I still feel I'm standing here saying, "what was the explanation for why they (BPs) do this and that?  It seems so, so complicated to me.

Sometimes, and of course I don't know this for sure, but the BP seems to set things out, books, mail, etc., just for our benefit.  Personal things and they are laying there in plain sight.  So today, right on the couch where I sit when we babysit our grandson, was a book called "I love my love."  She made some notes in this and since she has not been officially diagnosed with BPD that I know of, it sure sounded like a verification of being one with what she wrote.

The first was a poem about a mother and saying something about not knowing how to love her.  She herself writes underneath the poem, something to the effect of "I am hard to love."  I was never taught how to love someone in the normal way that people love others.  My family never spoke this in words.  It was more like, casual glances, pineapple pizza slices, a blast in the car of Karaoke.  She says again at the end of her writing, I don't know how to love like normal people, but I sure can try!"

Now I don't know about everyone else out there but I'm trying to sort through all this - from her words themselves.  What was her upbringing regarding not being taught how to love?  Isn't love a feeling inside we just have? 

My son also said that she has said herself, "I just can't connect with people," and has said it out of frustration, anger, sadness, crying, etc... .  lot of emotion linked with that.

Anything anybody can add to this to help me make sense of it all?  I feel like I should understand this by now with all the sources I use!

Feeling stupid!
Angie59

Hi Angie59:
My point of view might be different, but sometimes it can be helpful to have multiple POV's.  Thought I'd share a few angles to consider.


I can certainly understand your disappointment in regard to your son's fiance.  A mother wants the best for her son and hopes that he chooses a partner who can respect/share the values that he was raised with.  

After reading your above quote, I was wondering why you consistently refer to your son's fiance as "the BP"?  Is it your way of venting anger?  As an observer/reader, I cringed a bit each time I saw the reference (sounds hostile).  Is referring to her as "the BP", a way of NOT acknowledging her as your son's fiance?

There is a logic to: "act as if, and the feelings will follow".  I'm thinking that a more neutral reference could be a good step in a better direction. The chances are slim that you will love your son's fiance as a daughter, but things don't need to be at the opposite extreme.  Even if the marriage doesn't happen, she is still the mother of your grandson, so she will still be in your life in some way.


Sounds like you are ruminating.  What stress management tools do you use? Do you practice any anger management or stress management techniques?  The info. on rumination, at the link below, might be helpful.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=103396.0;all


We aren't all the same, we can vary in our brain wiring and chemistry.  What's normal to you isn't necessarily normal to others.  The behaviors that were common within your family and upbringing aren't necessarily what others experience.  Not every family is demonstrative of affection.

My parents weren't huggers and weren't in the habit of saying "I love you".  It can be more important to "walk the walk" instead of just "talking the talk".  I knew my parents loved my by actions they took to support me.

I think what your son's fiance is saying is that her parents weren't vocal about loving her, but showed it by certain actions.  i.e. her reference to "casual glances, pineapple pizza and car karoke".  Some people can wear out saying, "I love you", but might not follow up with loving actions and gestures.


Regarding the issue with your husband's back, there are things you can do, other than getting a specific piece of new furniture.  There are a lot of options for various lumbar support pads/pillows and things you can use for a foot rest. (even a portable lift cusion, if needed).  These things are portable and you can just transport them with you.  You could create a more comfortable situation for your husband.  It wouldn't be the recliner he likes, but you could have an opportunity to improve the situation.

Many things don't have to be an "all or nothing" situation.  That is something I continually work on, myself.  If you can't have the optimum, you can still reap a benefit with something less. (but more than nothing, with some degree of benefit to you).

You can't change your son's fiance, but you can change how you interact and react to her.  You will need to just let go of some things.  If next time you ask her what to bring to a barbecue, and she says just bring sodas, you can choose to just not stress out about it and bring sodas.  One way of looking at that situation is that she really didn't need you to bring anything.  

Hello No-One!

Thank you for your reply and your point of view.  I would like to address the various points you had brought up. 

As far as why I keep referring to my son's fiance as "the BP" is simply for clarification.  I'm pretty sure that it should be obvious but I did get a few posts where they thought it was my son who was the BP.  I guess it appears that I have tagged her with that identification, but it is not being done in a way of expressing anger or not trying to give her the identification of my son's fiance.  I have no problem with doing that.

You are correct about her being in our life whether the relationship works or not, so that is part of the reason I am working so hard on how to deal with all of this.

I think you are correct in my ruminating about all of this.  It is on my mind way too much.  I went to the link you suggested, printed it out and I am going to take from it what works for me and keep working at it each day.  By the way, that is a characteristic of mine, mostly like from my anxiety, so it will help in other situations for me as well.

I agree with you on the point that every family is different and just because they don't show it physical or say I love you all the time, it can be shown in other ways.  I came from a full-blooded Italian background and everyone hugs and kisses everyone!  LOL  So this is something important to remember.

I interpreted her comment to the poem a little differently than you did.  I wrote down her exact words a few days ago so I would get it right.  It read as follows:

"I am hard to love.  I wasn’t taught the normalcy of the general actions and words of love.   Instead you get unique murmurs, careless situations, sweet bursts of karaoke in the car, casual glances in between pineapple pizza slices, apologies of my workaholic responses, high standards and low expectations.  I don’t know how to love, but I can try.

Trust comes too easy and respect is hard to discuss.  Communication and criticism rolls off the tongue.  Asking questions you don’t want the answers to kills the cat.  Stupid metaphor.  Underlines “who I was in high school chapter, “and I never really showed the people most important to me the love that they deserved.”

“The biggest smiles hide the darkness of thoughts.  The loudest laughs tune out the personal madness that haunts at the next silence.”  Underline I smile fairly big.

This contains a bit more of what I think I wrote before, maybe to give more insight.  The fact that she says careless situations made me wonder what she might have meant by that. 

I have spoke with my son's fiance's mother before and she had told me on her own out of the blue that her mother and her did not have a close relationship.  She never held me, told me she loved me, or showed any loving gestures.  She said she and her mother are not close.  She also said she did not want any children of her own, but had my son's fiance for her husband, but he wanted children.  She just had my son's fiance, no other children.

I am not really clear as to what my son's fiance's upbringing was.  They do not appear to be warm and fuzzy people, who hug when they say leave or anything, in fact they just kind of walk out and don't say goodbye to anyone when they leave.  We thought that was odd as well, but we are used to it now.

Whenever I have asked for a hug from my son's fiance, it is awkward - she puts her arms around you but at some length, if that makes sense.  It is a cold kind of hug, but I don't know what that means.

I like your suggestions on making things more comfortable for my husband's back without it having to be a new chair.  I have already addressed that with my son and said I was wrong to ask him to get a different chair for his Dad.  I recognize it is their home and you cannot ask for a specific piece of furniture.

My husband and I are working together through this, and like you said, we can only control ourselves.  My son's fiance's parents live 5 minutes (literally) from their house.  We, however, live about 1/2 hour away.  My husband is not able to see well at night and we have told them this.  I do not drive.  In order to celebrate Easter, (they do not share in our Christianity), they want us and her parents to come over Monday night, order pizza and dye eggs.  We (my husband and I) both know that is difficult for us as they want us to come over at 6:00 p.m., which it would still be light out, and we will only stay about 2 hours at most because they kind of shush you out the door because the kids are going to bed and they go to bed early as well.  That is understandable, but my husband does not want to drive a total of one hour for a couple hours of time there, and most likely the trip back will be in the dark.  So we said we would just bring their baskets over on Thursday when we go to babysit our grandson.

I look at this as a way of controlling ourselves and what would work best for us, especially our safety in driving in the dark.  My son is not very happy with the decision.  That makes me sad because I don't want anything to jeopardize our relationship.

That's about it for now.  Maybe you can give your ideas on all of this as well.  I appreciate it. 



 

Hello again!

For No-One, I forgot to address the problem I had with what to bring for the barbeque.  Maybe she had a bad day, who knows?  However, the part I was angry about was how rudely she answered my son when he said, my mom wants to know what to bring.  She "yelled" out, "I don't know what she should bring.  Just bring whatever she wants, bring soda or something."  I remember that so well because I feel it was not necessary to yell like that over such a little thing and it was a very rude and disrespectful thing to do to me.  It didn't have to be answered in that manner.

One other thing I forgot to mention, which is very scary to me, is the fact that they have their children as well as my son's fiance on State aid for insurance.  Right now she is reapplying for it.  My son has a good job and a good paying job, and there is no reason he should be on State aid.  My son should be paying for it out of his paycheck.  I know this will sound like I am defending my son, but he is very naive in the way the world works sometimes.  It doesn't sound to me when he talks to me about the insurance that he truly understands things should not be this way.  His fiance is very persuasive and as long as she says something, that's the way it should be.  I have explained this to him before, but he continues to do things her way, which is being on the State aid.  She never reports his income, she portrays herself as having only 3 people (Herself and the two children) in the home and does not report his income.  This is fraud.  She lies to my son about reporting his income - she does not report it, so she can qualify and he can get more on his paycheck.  I don't want to be visiting my son in jail.  Feeling scared right now.

Angie59

Angie59:
I want to commend you for changing your reference for your son's fiance from "The BP" to "his fiance" - good job!  That's a step in a better direction!
 Your son's fiance would be the one facing fraud charges.  If you son didn't apply for State aid and sign paperwork in regard to State aid, then he won't be the one to face penalties - his fiance will.

Have they set a wedding date?

I understand how you feel.  I'd be upset about welfare fraud as well.  You have pointed it out to your son, and that's all you can do, unless you report her to authorities. (If you do that, be prepared for them to cut off all contact with you). Best to not harp on the situation to your son.

At this point, it's probably best to stay silent.  When they get married, you son will add your grandson to his insurance.  At least, your grandson has some level of health insurance, at the current time.

She is who she is.  You won't ever change that, so you will just need to manage your own feelings.  You can choose to be the emotionally intelligent person and NOT let it bother you.

I have/have had people in my life who are "snippy", and give replies just like your son's fiance.  Their emotional intelligence is low and when they feel anxious, they are difficult to be around.  Is it disrespectful?  Yes it is!  Can it be frustrating?  :)efinitely!  But, Don't waste your time ruminating over it.  Choose to be the emotionally intelligent person.

If you think about your own situation with anxiety and depression, perhaps her issues are far more extreme and complex.  She has to be the one to choose to learn coping skills for herself, just as you can choose to learn coping skills to manage your own feelings and to NOT take what she does personally and ruminate about it for days.

The link below, lead to an interesting article on "anger management".  Perhaps you will find the 4 steps they give helpful.  I know that I did.

https://hbr.org/2015/12/calming-your-brain-during-conflict

You can, also, view an excerpt from the article quoted in Reply #5, within the thread below:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=323122.0

Unless you catch her on a good day, when she wants to be social with you, you aren't going to be able to talk to her about recipes or chat about what you might bring.  Be prepared for and expect the worst and then cherish the good moments.

The more you pressure you son, regarding things you don't agree with, the more you will push him away.  The more you complain to him about his fiance, the more you will push him away.  I understand that you want your son to have a good marriage and a good life.  Unfortunately, he has to reach his own realization about how difficult a relationship he will have with his fiance in the years ahead.  

Just wondering if this son is close to his brother? (I believe his brother has a masters in psychology?).  Would you describe your engaged son as a "people pleaser", perhaps a bit co-dependent?

Hi No-One,

Thank you for giving me kudos on rephrasing how to refer to my son's fiance.  That really made me feel good! 

They have not set a wedding date yet.

You are so right about all you said, because it has already happened in the past to me.  You can't say anything to him about his situation or about his fiance because he is always extremely defensive.  Today, I had to talk with him about something he is somewhat angry about and handled it this way:

He said his fiance had just said that she doesn't get enough time with him or the children, and that they should make it a priority to have all of us (his parents and brother and her parents) over for dinner every other week.  This coming on the heels of him telling her that we could not make the Easter plans.

The plans were for us to go over there on Monday night about 6:00 p.m, order pizza and dye Easter eggs.  The reason we said we couldn't do that is because we have told them both before that my husband cannot see well in the dark to drive, especially in wet weather, which we are having.  I do not drive. 

When I spoke to him and he brought this all up about his dad saying no, he said well I guess we'll have to start eating dinner at 1:00 or something in order to have you guys over!  He compared it to my brother who does this all the time!    I thought is sounded funny because of that and started laughing and then he started laughing as well.  I then said, well it's just really hard for Dad to see at night, don't worry about it, it's no big deal!"
Then I changed the subject.

As far as the insurance goes, the kids and my son's fiance are not covered at all right now.  He tells me that she applied and is waiting to hear from them.  It is sad to say, but his fiance does lie quite a bit and he even acknowledged that to us.  So none of them have insurance right now except my son on his job.  Unfortunately, our grandbaby is sick right now and I concerned for him.  I didn't really say anything about the whole situation regarding insurance.

This is so, so difficult.  I have never been in a situation like this before.

Angie59

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